Limerence Explained: Why Do We Get Addicted To People? - Crappy Childhood Fairy

1. 0:00 – 4:57

   What Is The Meaning Of Limerence?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Limerence. I didn't even know that it was a word that existed until recently and after doing a little bit of research, it seems to be maybe one of the hottest topics on the internet, especially something that doesn't even exist in the DSM yet. Uh, w- what is it? Can you give an introduction to those people like me who have no idea that this is even a word?

   2. ARAnna Runkle0:24

      Limerence is this handy word for this thing that most people have experienced a little bit of and some people unfortunately have completely, like, lost their, lost their happiness over. And it was the, the phrase wa- the, the word limerence was coined in the 70s. There was a, a p- a psychologist named Dorothy Tennov and she was sort of referring to that Twitter-pated falling-in-love feeling. But it's evolved to mean something much more than that. It's that feeling, but then all of a sudden it sort of goes into hyperdrive and becomes this addiction-level obsession with another person who you can't be with generally, either because they're not into you, they're not available, or they don't even exist. Like, there are people who feel limerent about fictional characters.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:08

      Right. Okay. So the, the rabbit hole goes quite deep. You mentioned there that everybody has it in, uh, small doses?

   4. ARAnna Runkle1:16

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson1:16

      D- does everyone who falls for someone go through limerence?

   6. ARAnna Runkle1:19

      Well, technically speaking, yes, but then it sort of morphs into, especially if that person is in your life and maybe reciprocates your feelings, it'll turn into a more ordinary kind of love where, you know, because of the toothpaste cap and the toilet seat and just regular s- stuff of life, the magic spell starts to dissipate and real love can start to form. So technically you can call that early love limerence, but these days I think we're talking about it as something else and it's very, very common as a trauma symptom.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:50

      How is limerence different to an infatuation or a crush?

   8. ARAnna Runkle1:54

      I think infatuation is the right word. It's just that infatuation ends before it turns sick. And so, you know, limerence, when it just gallops forward, it's really like up on a level of heroin addiction, I would say. I've known heroin addicts, I've known limerents, I've experienced limerence and I've had people limerent on me, and it's like that. People don't get over it unless they, like, really t- go take, take strong steps to get over it. Limerence doesn't go away, infatuation does.

   9. CWChris Williamson2:23

      Right. Okay. How is limerence different from unrequited love or codependency?

   10. ARAnna Runkle2:30

       Hmm. Well, unrequited love is kind of a condition of limerence and there's, it's like this addiction to hope. Hope i- hope has a lot of chemicals in it. I've heard some researchers say there may be a, a genetic predisposition to it. It's, um, (laughs) it's, it's something that springs up. Well, I wanna tell you about the relationship to neglect in childhood. I'm in this unique position. I'm not a therapist, but I'm a YouTuber who gets hundreds and hundreds of letters, you know, w- every week from people and though, there's a letter that I kept getting over and over again about the same phenomenon where somebody said, "I grew up in a house with an alcoholic parent and now I'm in love with this guy and, uh, I can't really tell him, I know he wouldn't be into me and anyway he's married and I can't stop thinking about him, and now my whole life is falling apart and I, I should leave my job but I can't." And so somebody's really just, like, going down and, like, when you're, when you're in love with somebody who's good for you, you'll see signs that your, your life is kind of coming up. That's a sign. Like, I, I heard on one of your recent, recent, uh, interviews that you're in a relationship and when you feel good and happy and you notice that, "You know what? I'm, I'm, like, getting better as a person," that's love, that's a good partnership. When you're starting to check out, when you're starting to go down, I've sort of defined this whole, this downward ladder of stuff that happens to you when it's taking over your brain and your life. You start avoiding people, you're not emotionally available, you can't love, so it's really a different thing and it feels like it's about the other person but it's clearly not.

   11. CWChris Williamson4:09

       Right. W- what do you mean when you say it's not about the other person?

   12. ARAnna Runkle4:13

       I think it starts like, "Oh, what a wonderful person and I like them." And, but after a while with all the secrecy, like, you can never tell somebody you're limerent over how you feel and the reason is, I think some people do, it's one way that you can break the spell because almost certainly the reason it's secret and unrequited is 'cause they don't, they're not into you. That's what it is. And so if you avoid telling them how you feel so that you never get that disappointment, you're holding onto this escape mechanism.

   13. CWChris Williamson4:44

       Mm.

   14. ARAnna Runkle4:44

       And people need a way to relieve, to get out of here sometimes, to get out of dodge emotionally, but this is a really malfunctioning way to do it because it almost guarantees you're not gonna have anybody real in your

2. 4:57 – 7:21

   Does An Anxious Avoidant Relationship Entail Limerence?

   1. ARAnna Runkle4:57

      life.

   2. CWChris Williamson4:58

      Okay. You mentioned a couple of times, uh, the sort of, uh, unrequited nature, the fact that that's, that's almost a prerequisite for this. Does that mean then that a anxious-avoidant relationship where you are, you're, you're, maybe you even, uh, live together or maybe you haven't yet got together, does that mean that an anxious-avoidant relationship that's committed and monogamous and, and sort of moving through the usual stages could still have this limerence in it?

   3. ARAnna Runkle5:32

      I think so. That's my opinion. I think there's a little bit of a continuum bet- between what we call, like, trauma bonding which is intermittent reinforcement that you would have in a anxious-avoidant relationship. One person's like, "Come on, give me attention," and the other person's like, "I'm not speaking to you now. You're overwhelming me," and it activates something. And people get anxious for a reason. The an- the anxious a- attachment style is common, it springs up after a childhood of neglect, emotional neglect. And neglect isn't just psychological, you know, there are things that happen neurologically because of that that are pretty hard to control, so it's tricky to manage.... so that activating, that chasing instinct. Now, I noticed when I, when I, you know, got over my trauma-driven dating patterns, which is a formidable thing, I met my husband when I was 42 and, um, I did, I played things very differently. And what worked for me for the first time was I just let him kind of come after me. I was s- you know, mentally I was just like, you know, I wanted so bad to like go, "Are we gonna see each other? Are you gonna call me?" (laughs) "Do you like me? How do you feel? Where, where's all this going?" But I just allowed him to sort of like do the work of that and it, it, it was so powerful and, and I figured that out very quickly early in the relationship. It pushed him off when I was chasing, and he could come towards me when I stopped chasing. And I think, you know, we've all heard this but for women today, uh, and men, men have their own version of it, we wanna believe "oh that's not true, that's just some sort of old-fashioned thing." But there's something in our brains that we do need to chase a little bit. It does activate something good, but like every good thing in a human being, there can be this sort of disordered side of it where there's a dark side to it where it goes too far-

   4. CWChris Williamson7:17

      Yeah.

   5. ARAnna Runkle7:17

      ... and the, and the chasing becomes stalking.

3. 7:21 – 21:51

   The Main Emotions Of A Limerent Person

   1. CWChris Williamson7:21

      Yeah. Okay, so how do people feel that are having... wha- what, what's it, is someone suffering with limin- limerence? A limerent? What is it?

   2. ARAnna Runkle7:29

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson7:29

      How do we refer to them?

   4. ARAnna Runkle7:31

      Yeah, a limerent. A limerent person.

   5. CWChris Williamson7:32

      Okay, so how does a limerent feel?

   6. ARAnna Runkle7:36

      Occasionally elated and thrilled they got a text or they caught a glimpse or they got a kind word and, and then there's just a lot of, uh, depression in between. It's like getting a hit. It's getting a hit of heroin. It's like that where it lifts you up and you, there's hope and you think, "This is it. I think they're reciprocating." And then, they don't follow up and you can't really hold onto hope anymore. So there's this pursuit. I, you know, I just wanna get that little high, that little high of I think maybe I'm gonna get them to reveal that they feel the same way about me, but I'm gonna do it without tipping my hand. I don't wanna tell them 'cause if I tell them and they don't feel that way, they won't be in my life. They'll be creeped out. It's cringey, right, when somebody obsesses on you? It's, it, it's not a pleasant thing when you're not into it. So, so they don't disclose but they're always trying to think of like what's the perfect thing I could say that would sort of go... uh, you know, make a little space where you could say something and give me that clue, and that's what flirting is. When it's reciprocal, people are flirting so you sort of say, "Hmm, I just don't have anything to do this Saturday." And then you say, "Oh, that's funny-

   7. CWChris Williamson8:41

      (laughs)

   8. ARAnna Runkle8:41

      ... I don't either. Well..." You know, it's like this very subtle exchange but the exchange isn't happening the way you want so your imagination takes over 'cause I think there was something code, a secret code in what they were saying. Next thing you know, you're, you're looking at all their social media and they're like, "Oh, they like that song and the lyrics are, you know, about really loving somebody-

   9. CWChris Williamson9:01

      Oh, wow.

   10. ARAnna Runkle9:01

       ... but you can't tell." So your mind is just starts to find love where there is no love which is what you learned to do as a kid when you weren't getting in- loved.

   11. CWChris Williamson9:12

       What are the main emotions? It sounds to me like anxiety and despair.

   12. ARAnna Runkle9:17

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson9:17

       Uh...

   14. ARAnna Runkle9:17

       Anxiety (laughs) and despair and then just like la la, (laughs) you know, overjoyed, you know? You got that little, that little bit of like maybe from them.

   15. CWChris Williamson9:28

       Mm. There was a, a... (laughs) the previous business that I was a part of for a long time, we had an office in Newcastle, the northeast of the UK, and next door to us was a Thai massage parlor. Now, uh, a lot of the workers of the Thai massage parlor didn't speak fantastic English. Um, they weren't there for their sort of, uh, like secretarial skills. They were there because they could give good massages.

   16. ARAnna Runkle9:53

       It was legit.

   17. CWChris Williamson9:54

       It was legit.

   18. ARAnna Runkle9:54

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson9:54

       It, I mean, like we always made jokes about like exactly what was going on. They seemed to be open quite late, but the women were always really nice. They were planting flower beds outside and stuff. Um, anyway, one of the women that worked (laughs) there that I don't think that she was limerent around me, but there was certainly some odd reading into uh, the crypticness of my what were then Facebook statuses or what now would be like I don't know, Instagram captions or something. I think I'd posted something about the fact that I think all cats are bastards. I just don't, I'm not a cat person, right, and, uh, I th- someone had been talking about how much they loved their cat and I remember thinking, "This is a s- this is a clever, worthy Facebook status that I should take up mindshare with." Cat, all cats are bastards, something like that, and she really loved her cat and she messaged my business partner saying, "I know that Chris has been talking about my cat. I know that he's got an issue with it." And then she apologized. She got me a USB drive that was shaped as a tiny anime version of me and it had "Chris" written across the front of it, so it was really cute in some ways, but, uh, yeah, she would read into a lot of what it was that I was doing, so maybe that wasn't quite limerence but was, I don't know, some cryptic strangeness.

   20. ARAnna Runkle11:07

       It, it might've been. D- how did you feel? I mean, what was your gut check? (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson11:11

       Uh, d- that's a... I mean, she's Thai. She was Thai and 49 or f- like, uh, f- 50s, something, like late 40s, 50s, and I was a 25-year-old club promoter, right, wearing skinny jeans and going out and sniffing unpronounceable drugs most nights. I'm like, "Who- what is, what is going on here?" Uh, it was, it was just interesting. The guys in the office, we used to have like a little giggle about it. I don't think anyone was too mean. It wasn't as if we, we were laughing at her-

   22. ARAnna Runkle11:39

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson11:39

       ... but it was like, huh, like this is a, just a slightly unusual Thai lady that thinks about Chris quite a lot.

   24. ARAnna Runkle11:46

       But that's what I mean. It wasn't about you. It wasn't really something you did. She was like reacting to something that was-

   25. CWChris Williamson11:51

       Mm-hmm.

   26. ARAnna Runkle11:51

       ... completely in her mind or her heart about it, some memory or some projection, you know? You didn't do that.

   27. CWChris Williamson11:57

       True. I- I wasn't leaving little clues around. Okay, so anxiety and despair with elation.

   28. ARAnna Runkle12:04

       Yeah, yeah. Chasing the good feeling, and everybody wants that good feeling. Love is... We need love. We need to feel connected to people and-... but, uh, e- but people can get limerent even when in- even when they're married, obviously. Ma- uh, they- they can be limerent when they're surrounded by options, just obsessed on one person. And it's not just because of modern times either 'cause there's a lot of examples in literature, um, uh, like Dante and Beatrice and (laughs) Heathcliff and Cathy, maybe mutually limerent at different times but not the same time, from Wuthering Heights.

   29. CWChris Williamson12:43

       Mm-hmm.

   30. ARAnna Runkle12:43

       So it's been around.
4. 21:51 – 26:41

   Is There An Imbalance Of Value In The Mind?

   1. ARAnna Runkle21:52

   2. CWChris Williamson21:52

      Is there a sense of imbalance in value in the mind of the limerent, a sort of pedestalizing of this other person?

   3. ARAnna Runkle22:01

      Hmm. I never thought of that, but of course. Yes, you're right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. This person is what makes- this person is who brings meaning to my life. And I have- I've- with all the letters I get, I do see that a lot. And the commenters will say, "Oh yeah, she's trying to marry up," or she's- I don't know. There's a word for it in the manosphere-

   4. CWChris Williamson22:20

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   5. ARAnna Runkle22:21

      ... of when a woman thinks she c- you know, she can have- a guy will have sex with her but he's not really gonna have a relationship with her.

   6. CWChris Williamson22:26

      Mm-hmm.

   7. ARAnna Runkle22:27

      But she doesn't know that. She doesn't actually have the, like, neurological framework-

   8. CWChris Williamson22:30

      Oh, this is-

   9. ARAnna Runkle22:30

      ... to read the room. (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson22:32

       This is interesting. Okay. So, um, I've spent a lot of time orbiting, uh, content that would be manosphere adjacent. Uh, many-

   11. ARAnna Runkle22:39

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson22:39

       ... people accuse me of being a part of it even though they hate me and I- I'm not a massive fan of them. Um, but you're right. There is a- a number of different ideas that come out of the manosphere, uh, hypergamy, so women dating up and across.

   13. ARAnna Runkle22:51

       That's it.

   14. CWChris Williamson22:51

       But the- the idea of what's referred to as alpha widows. So, an alpha widow is a woman who has managed to either get into a casual relationship or maybe even a short or long-term relationship with a very high value man, but hasn't been able to hold onto him. So, uh, in her mind, she was able to use her youth and her beauty and her body and her personality and all, uh, uh, how lovely she is, uh, to be able to sort of capture this man. But his intentions, uh, it was kind of doomed to fail from the start because maybe there was a little bit of an imbalance in mate value, uh, or he just wasn't th- the ki- he was the guy with the cropped pants or the- the motorcycle or whatever. The- that's not to say that all people who drive motorcycles can't be good partners. Um, he wasn't, uh, invested in the way that she intended. And the alpha widow thing, which is a really interesting idea, talks about how that skews the, uh, self-referential, uh, perspective of mate value moving forward. "Well, I got this guy before, therefore this is my value moving forward again. I should be looking for..." Uh, what you realize is that this guy was prepared to maybe sleep with you or sort of have a situationship, but not really prepared to commit, and then you're setting into this sort of longing. And I wonder whether that- whethe- what we're looking at with limerents is some of the other sides of this story that this is kind of what some women can be left with, or some men as well, I imagine.

   15. ARAnna Runkle24:16

       Yeah, it is men too. I had one, I had a guy do it to me. I had to call the cops and, you know, he just, uh... Here's a little secret. If somebody's limerent on you, you say, "Look, I don't feel that way about you. We can just be friends." And they go, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll be friends." And, um-

   16. CWChris Williamson24:34

       No one wants to be friends with someone they fancy. Shut up.

   17. ARAnna Runkle24:37

       No.

   18. CWChris Williamson24:37

       Nobody does.

   19. ARAnna Runkle24:37

       They don't... Not only do they... Well, it's, it's sad, but they'll do anything because they're limerent to-

   20. CWChris Williamson24:42

       They just wanna be close.

   21. ARAnna Runkle24:42

       They're, they'll do anything and the hope is there and they just think you'll come around. But the thing is, I think it's really unethical to promise to be friends with somebody just because you said... You've made it, I made it clear, I don't want a relationship because they're not... If they're limerent, they're actually not capable of giving consent to that.

   22. CWChris Williamson24:59

       (laughs)

   23. ARAnna Runkle24:59

       And that's what I realized about this man. He ended up very fucked up, and he's not even alive anymore, I, I recently heard. He was, you know, he just got obsessed. He thought that, he, he thought, he thought... He was like, "I think we're the same soul." And I was just like, "Oh, God. No. Stop." You know?

   24. CWChris Williamson25:15

       Mm-hmm.

   25. ARAnna Runkle25:16

       And later I found out that's a whole thing, like there's a whole industry that feeds people with limerents with magical thinking that even though this person doesn't like you and is like, "Hey, get back. Stop. Stop calling me."

   26. CWChris Williamson25:27

       Mm-hmm.

   27. ARAnna Runkle25:27

       "Actually, they love you and in a past life, or astrologically, or actually, you're the same soul but one soul is always, you know, one half of the soul is always gonna run and one day you'll be back together." And you can pa- you know, people are just like draining so much money out of giving hope to people. It's a huge thing. And, you know, I have a YouTube channel, like you, so you probably are aware of that stat where you find out where are my people coming from and what were they searching, you know, when they came? And, uh, especially when I first started out, most of the search terms were tarot-related and as- and astrology. And I'm like, "Why? I never talk about that stuff." I talk about, like, ch- uh, childhood trauma symptoms, how to get your life together.

   28. CWChris Williamson26:10

       Mm-hmm.

   29. ARAnna Runkle26:10

       You know, how to date in a way that it doesn't go crazy. Like, why are they doing that? But that's why, because they've got limerents and there's... I think that those are all things that people can engage with, you know, kind of psychics and all that, that that could be fun and healthy and fine and not a big deal, but I think there's a large component of it, you know, that unethical people can really prey on limerent people who will pay you any amount of money to hear what they wanna hear. And they know what you wanna hear. It's that, "Yeah, he really loves you."

   30. CWChris Williamson26:40

       Yeah, that's interesting.

5. 26:41 – 35:53

   What Causes Limerence?

   1. CWChris Williamson26:41

      Okay, so there's this, uh, sense of imbalance perhaps, uh, in the mind of the limerent. But that's like, "This person's better than me." Uh, the, the sort of, uh, uh, godly, I mean, uh, getting toward the sort of even more crazy ends of this. They're divine. Um-

   2. ARAnna Runkle26:57

      So-

   3. CWChris Williamson26:58

      So, it seems like rejection or unavailability increases limerent feelings. The more distant or aloof that someone is, does that make the limerent brain want to double down more?

   4. ARAnna Runkle27:09

      Well, I wonder sometimes. You know, we don't really have research to prove this. I, I was... I contributed to a study that's going on right now at University of Sussex. I think they're doing some t- two-year longitudinal study and they asked for my input on the questions, so I'll be really interested to see. But this is, you know, it's a matter of just observation and opinion. There's not a ton of research about this. Um, but yeah, it, it, it does make, i- uh, it does make it act, it makes it activate more. When you have a real person who likes you back, you will, you're gonna smell their farts, you know, you're gonna, um, get so annoyed at how they drive, all that stuff that's, that breaks the spell. And sometimes you can break the spell of limerents just by being honest with another person, just saying, "Gosh, I just have these huge feelings for you." And they go, "Well, I don't feel that for you." And then it'll come right down. But a persistent limerent, limerent person-

   5. CWChris Williamson28:00

      Mm-hmm.

   6. ARAnna Runkle28:00

      ... they'll go, "Oh, I'm so sad. It's not gonna work out." And life feels empty. There's no source of dopamine anymore. And so there's this period of depression and then I call it the limerent flip. Whoop, they figure, they find a way again. They saw something in your Instagram today.

   7. CWChris Williamson28:14

      Mm-hmm.

   8. ARAnna Runkle28:15

      They, they got a sign, you know, out in the garden with, from a snail or, you know, just... I don't mean to make fun of it. I, I, I think that when I say that I'm just like making fun of people. They can't help it. Like, their mind just needs to find it, and it's coming from a very natural and good instinct. But the-

   9. CWChris Williamson28:30

      So they're pattern-detecting things that are not associated with... What's it called? An LO, what's LO stand for?

   10. ARAnna Runkle28:37

       LO is limerent object.

   11. CWChris Williamson28:39

       Right. So that's the other side of, of this equation.

   12. ARAnna Runkle28:41

       The person you're limerent on. It's kind of a silly word, but yeah. (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson28:45

       Um, so, uh, yeah, people are, uh, retrofitting, pattern-matching incorrectly almost all of the time, uh, little signs and signals, whether it's a tarot card reader or the, the trail of a snail on the garden path-

   14. ARAnna Runkle29:00

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson29:00

       ... or, uh, the Instagram caption or whatever it might be, and this is all evidence of the fact that the LO is actually, uh, uh, uh, in- secretly, uh, ready for this.

   16. ARAnna Runkle29:14

       Yeah. And I think the, the limerent object is actually a figment of your imagination. The person is a person, a whole human being.

   17. CWChris Williamson29:21

       Mm-hmm.

   18. ARAnna Runkle29:21

       And they're not necessarily very well matched at all. And so, it, it can be very intrusive when the real person says what they have to say. It doesn't match at all where you've been going in the story in your mind for so long. So it can be hard to bear and you wanna avoid it.

   19. CWChris Williamson29:35

       What causes limerence? Like, what predicts it?

   20. ARAnna Runkle29:40

       Uh, well, my opinion is, uh, neglect from a parent, and I think there's something about alcoholism. I've always... I had, I had a severely alcoholic mom, like hardcore and, um, and other drugs, and I had a lot of alcoholism in my family. So, that's always been something I've been around. I've been around other people who grew up like that. I feel like we're a tribe. I, I feel affinity with people who grew up like that. We just kind of understand each other and, and so I noticed that that's highly correlated with people who end up limerent, but also neglected, not seen. I think there are other pathologies, other weird... And when I say pathology, I just wanna be careful. Like, look, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a therapist, but I, I ha- I've worked (laughs) with... I've done a lot of work on this and, uh, and so there's this sick aspect around it where-... um, people... (sighs) Wh- what causes it? I mean, really there are life conditions that cause it. There may be a genetic component. Severe neglect teaches you to find love where there is no love.

   21. CWChris Williamson30:41

       Mm.

   22. ARAnna Runkle30:41

       It's like, you know, "Daddy and me, we have, you know, he's so special. He can't be here right now, and he's violent, but I know he loves me and I'm the best girl to him, you know? I, you know, I'm the light of his life, and, and we have this very special thing." So you ca- you have this idealization of a parent, which you should, you must, right? What does that do to a kid who, to believe your parents don't care about you and wish you were never born? Like, that is not something a kid can handle, so it's a survival mechanism. And I always just say like, "Thank God for the survival mechanisms," whatever allowed your little spirit to convince itself it could carry on, you know? Now you're here, but now you're an adult, and that's gotta come off. Like, now we have to get real. Now we have to get honest about what's e- what's really happening here, which is a total dedication to something that doesn't exist and a total absence of real life. And people will abandon their goals, their friendships and, uh, to, to continue to just keep thinking about this person that's giving them that uplift they need. People are lonely. People are depressed.

   23. CWChris Williamson31:48

       Mm.

   24. ARAnna Runkle31:48

       So some people, their pattern, they get out of depression by being angry all the time, and some people get out of it by thinking of a beautiful relationship that is just any day now-

   25. CWChris Williamson31:59

       Obsession?

   26. ARAnna Runkle31:59

       ... it's gonna, it's gonna begin. Yeah. Or some people fantasize about great business success. I'm sure you've met people like that where they're just being totally unrealistic, and every time the going gets tough, they're like, "Yeah, but when I've got my billion dollar," you know, whatever, and you're just like, "Yeah, but you don't even have a website." So, uh, so it's the same thing, and um, and again, I don't mean to make fun of it. It's like this natural drive for us to try to express the best in ourselves, but there's this little piece missing, so we have to take bold action to, to overcome it. Now, some wounds that happen in life are like a scrape, and they're gonna heal naturally. Time is gonna do it. You don't even have to know how to heal it, but some are like an amputation, and if you, if you lose a leg, you know, some people have, it's not gonna grow back. You can't get it back. You're not gonna get your childhood back. You're not gonna get that love from your mom back. You can't get it back, but there's a way to carry on. You know, in the case of a leg, literally you can have a prosthesis. They're pretty good now. Some people even run marathons. You know, there's, there's much you can do despite this injury, and, and in a way it's a healing. When you find your workaround, it's a healing, and it will work, and it's enough, it's enough for you to become fully expressed as a person and reach your potential. So with limerence, it's the same thing. Something's not coming back. And personally, you know, when I used to go to therapy, some of the stuff they said, it just wasn't helpful. Validating my feelings about it wasn't helpful. And nowadays, I think when they... if there's a lot of like, just talking about it, why, what happened, how did you end up feeling this way, that goes on too long, I think. At a certain point, it's just like, "Okay, now you have to get honest with yourself. You must stop talking about this. You have to break contact with this person, even if you have to change jobs." You know, there's n- there's just no other way.

   27. CWChris Williamson33:48

       So, uh, uh, I mean, uh, I'm interested in the sort of life situation of somebody who would start to feel limerence. Um, I get the sense that boredom, sort of a, a lack of purpose, a lack of distraction and fulfillment, because you would basically, you would... limerence would be an attempt to escape yourself through those feelings.

   28. ARAnna Runkle34:12

       Yeah. Yeah. And, and m- maybe even in real life. Maybe you dated somebody briefly and it was... you really felt like your life came into Technicolor with them. You could really just like feel like, "Ah, this is what it's like to be in the presence of something divine." You know? "I really..." Or you, you feel yourself sort of coming up and shining a bright light into the world. It feels really good in a, in a very important way, and then they take it away from you and you feel like there's no other way to get it back. And on a certain level, whatever we have with somebody else, we can't get back. You can get something like it with somebody else, but let's be honest, you know, people are not completely interchangeable.

   29. CWChris Williamson34:49

       Oh, so are you suggesting that this could be a transference? So, you might have actually been in a relationship with somebody that was really great, that didn't work out, and now you port that over to other people in future?

   30. ARAnna Runkle35:03

       Well, I guess. I think that would be handy if you could, but you just stay fixated on that person. Like, "I cannot fully exist. I can't really hop into my full dimension as a person unless I'm with this other person. The world feels bleak." And that's, uh... a lot of people will say that. "It feels like it went to black and white." It's like when Dorothy walks out of the house after the, the tornado, you know? She-
6. 35:53 – 39:38

   Example Of A Limerent Person And LO

   1. ARAnna Runkle35:53

      It's-

   2. CWChris Williamson35:54

      What's, uh, what's the, uh, typical avatar for a limerent person and an LO? Like, if you were to just say... I'm aware that there's... everybody can get it, but just middle of the bullseye for the center of the distribution of, of what you see. What sort of age, life, background do each of these people have?

   3. ARAnna Runkle36:14

      I probably have a skewed perspective because my audience is not totally representative. But, um, young women, and especially lately, uh, have it, and es- the... because a lot of people have long distance relationships by chatting with somebody online, if you're a young woman and you're chatting online with somebody for a long time, there's a lot of opportunity for this to turn into limerence....you know, tip over into pretty toxic obsession. And I get-

   4. CWChris Williamson36:41

      Right. Because the aloofness, the, the intermittent contact, the lack of ability to be reassured, the lack of physical touch.

   5. ARAnna Runkle36:49

      Yeah. Yeah. And I, I notice that with a lot of, um, a lot of young women who are very pressured by their families to achieve things, go to school, do things that they actually weren't really craving to do themselves. It was just some expectation. They haven't really, they haven't really become themselves. They're living up to some parental expectation and so there's this emptiness. And, you know, sex is amazing. (laughs) It really changes, changes everything, doesn't it? And it can feel like that is, that is the thing that was missing, the only thing that was missing. But in women especially, it lights up this whole other belief. Like, if it, if... The way that sex feels is what love is and so if I have this experience with somebody, it's absolutely the full dimension of love and it's what I must have, and it's this particular person. And, um, you know, the... It's very sad because... I- it's very sad, but I don't think that's the only reason it happens. Uh, I think it's... I think there's a, there's a need for love that's totally unmet and there's a practice. Like, like, there's a... It's almost like a developmental dis- delay. Is how I see it. It's like a developmental delay that you don't know how to like, uh, pay attention to how I really like this about this person I'm having dinner with. But this is a little weird and that's kind of a red flag. I should ask a question about that. It just becomes a total, "I'm all in." Men have it too and they have their forms of idealizing and some guys it's like they ide- uh, a woman is way up on a pedestal. The most beautiful, you know, the most amazing. Everything she touches there's a light coming out of her. Um, but there's this other kind that I see where they wanna save a woman. They just beco- they'll like ruin a perfectly good marriage because of some, some woman. Yeah, I had a letter from a guy. He saw a woman, like, unconscious on the sidewalk and he called 911 and he stayed with her and then he went to the hospital, and the next thing you know his whole life became about her and what was possible there. So, you can see, like, it's, it's not real and the, and... In that case, with, like, people who are fragile like that, it's the same thing. We have an ethical responsibility not to mess with their emotions. You know, if they're... In her case she was a drug addict. She was unconscious 'cause she needed Narcan or something.

   6. CWChris Williamson39:09

      I listened to that episode. It was great. It was re-... Well, I mean, was it great? It was harrowing and fascinating.

   7. ARAnna Runkle39:13

      Oh, about that guy? Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson39:14

      Yeah. Far- even really, really good. Um, you know, this, this dude who... I mean, it was a pattern because he then did it again. That, that woman ended up-

   9. ARAnna Runkle39:22

      Yes.

   10. CWChris Williamson39:22

       ...ended up dying because of a drug overdose and then there's some other woman who was in a, a drug, uh, like, uh, toiletry store and she couldn't get some stuff and then he bought them for her and it's this sort of savior complex-

   11. ARAnna Runkle39:33

       Yeah. He couldn't stop.

   12. CWChris Williamson39:34

       ...I guess and then this, this desire to be sort of seen as, as the hero.

7. 39:38 – 44:35

   Seeking Out The Right Relationship

   1. CWChris Williamson39:38

      You mentioned sex there. I get the sense... Would really great sex cause this to happen? That you just sort of break through some boundary that you had previously, you have really great sexual chemistry with another person and that is the beginning. "Whoa. How am I ever going to be able to fi-... You know, this was so transcendent, it was so divine, it was so whatever."

   2. ARAnna Runkle40:01

      I mean, obviously it can but I don't think that's necessary because people get this way over people they've never had sex with. You know, they can only imagine. (laughs) And so that, that's not a necessary component but I do think, you know, I'm sort of in the camp of for wo- for women even more than men, you have to guard that thing that happens, you know, with your whole neurobiology around sex and oxytocin and orgasm because it will bond you with somebody whether they're right for you or not, whether you like them or not. It just will, you know, throw you over a cliff. You're under a spell and now you must deal with it, and if you're not good at getting out of relationships you just, you just kind of cost yourself years of happiness.

   3. CWChris Williamson40:42

      Right. Because if you fall easily but leave slowly and you're not sufficiently discerning before falling-

   4. ARAnna Runkle40:52

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson40:52

      ...uh, you, yeah, you kind of need to treat yourself in love like a drug addict or like a, an unreliable crazy person.

   6. ARAnna Runkle41:01

      Yes. Yes.

   7. CWChris Williamson41:02

      And you say, "Look, at some point they're gonna put rose-colored glasses on but the problem is when you're wearing rose-colored glasses, red flags don't look that red."

   8. ARAnna Runkle41:10

      Right. (laughs) Well, the best advice anybody ever gave me was to... That the definition of dating is to get, is to find out who somebody is and whether you would like to get close to them. But dating kind of, in our culture today, it means having sex with. "Oh, I'm dating this person," means having sex with. Could be casual, could be... Well, if it were more than that you might use different words. (laughs) But dating properly, it's t- spending time with somebody in a fairly structured way so that you can find out who, you know, what's the deal and you can get your cards on the table. It's like, "Listen, I really am aiming for marriage. I already have a child. How do you feel about that? Are you open to that?" You know, "Are, are, are you into monogamy? I am." You know, those conversations when, uh, when I work with people who are damaged, um, around their ability to bond like that and who have gotten into, like, one unavailable obsession after another or actual relationship with somebody unavailable or they've been talked into polyamory again- even though that's not what they want.

   9. CWChris Williamson42:08

      Mm.

   10. ARAnna Runkle42:08

       But, you know, the mind... Hope springs eternal, right? "I can, uh, I'll change this somehow." And, um, and so when I coach them I always start everybody out and say, "Ca- you know, could you just describe, like, what's your heart's desire? What do you most want?" And I would say most people, men and women, what they want is to be married and, but there's this huge social taboo. You're not supposed to want that. You're not supposed to say it. Like it would be shameful to say it on a date. You're trying to label things. I'm just like, "Oh gosh. This whole thing, this whole thing has really messed people up." (laughs) ... and, uh, and it's okay. And that was a huge part of my personal development to learn that I could be open about, "I wanna get married, I wanna have kids. And if you're not into that, goodbye." And... (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson42:52

       Yeah, I suppose subjugating your own needs, uh, for fear of them putting somebody off, where you'd be like, "I'm not right."

   12. ARAnna Runkle43:03

       Oh, yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson43:03

       You think, well, is your goal to be in a relationship with this person or with a person who's right for you? Because the more that you try and cover over what it is that you want, what it is that you need, the sort of life goals that you've got for yourself, the kind of way that you want to spend your weekends, all of that stuff, you're pushing yourself further and further into a potential relationship with somebody who isn't like the person you want to be with.

   14. ARAnna Runkle43:28

       That's right. And it's, it's not only costing you time that may be precious if you wanna have children. It's precious under all circumstances really. It's everybody's precious time but it's costing you time, but it's also grinding you down. That experience of, I call it being cool girl, you know, cool girl. I'm like, "Oh, that's cool." You know? (laughs) "Oh, you're seeing somebody else tonight? Never mind. It was my birthday, I was... Well, anyway." You know? (laughs) That's cool girl. Like, "No, that's cool. Sorry." And, and, and, uh, I always say if I had a nickel (laughs) for every, everybody who came to me because they had been trying to, like, lie about who they were and how they felt-

   15. CWChris Williamson44:03

       Mm-hmm.

   16. ARAnna Runkle44:04

       ... to be okay in the eyes of somebody else, I would have a lot of nickels, you know? At least $1.50. I don't know. (laughs) Maybe a little more, but it's really, really common. We've all been programmed you're not allowed to like that. So, one of the things I do with people is I just give them permission to want what they want. Just want what you want and just be open about it. Doesn't mean you're gonna get it. Life is not amazon.com.

   17. CWChris Williamson44:26

       Mm-hmm.

   18. ARAnna Runkle44:26

       You don't always get what you ordered, but you're definitely not gonna get it if you're just all wobbly about it and you keep bonding with the wrong person.

   19. CWChris Williamson44:34

       Yes. Yes, very

8. 44:35 – 50:11

   Why Limerence Doesn't Affect Everyone

   1. CWChris Williamson44:35

      good point. Why do some people get limerence and others don't?

   2. ARAnna Runkle44:40

      Yeah, it's weird, huh? I think, I think there's a kind of privilege that nobody talks about, you know? And, um, I'm, I'm a kid who grew up, like, with a heroin addict mom, very poor, on welfare. And when people are like, talk about my privilege, I'm like, "Uh," you know? (laughs) Not, not necessarily in every way there, but I think there's this incredible privilege of people who are loved properly all their lives, and so they have an innate sense of, like, when somebody talks to them in a, in an abusive manner, they're outta there. They're just like, "I don't, I don't tolerate this."

   3. CWChris Williamson45:11

      Mm-hmm.

   4. ARAnna Runkle45:11

      They feel it, they see it, they leave, and they know they can, like, they have people to return to so that they're not all alone. But if you're all alone in the world, and a lot of people really are, and there's been times I, I just didn't have people to go to. You know, there's a lot of incentive to just try to make... Uh, I have words for everything. I call it crap fitting. You fit yourself to crap. You just need, you need somebody to hang out with so bad-

   5. CWChris Williamson45:35

      Mm-hmm.

   6. ARAnna Runkle45:35

      ... that you will tolerate unacceptable people and just intolerable conditions.

   7. CWChris Williamson45:39

      Mm-hmm.

   8. ARAnna Runkle45:40

      And then, you get so good at it. You don't wanna be good at crap fitting. And, uh, it'll keep a roof over your head sometimes, you know, and you stay in something, but sometimes you have to take the bold step and get out. And that's, like, when we see, like, an abu- uh, somebody who's an abused partner, and they're just, they just don't leave and they keep going back. It's very hard to make that break, because staying grinds down your confidence, it grinds down your realistic vision that, "Yes, I might have to, you know, l- s- couch surf, or live in a shelter, or have some crappy little apartment for a little bit, and I'll have to find a job, and I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but there's no other way and I will find a way." That's what freedom is. Like, like, actual healing and freedom, it's not like controlling other people and stopping them from triggering you or anything. The freedom is just knowing whatever happens, I'll figure it out. I'll figure out what to do. Like, that's confidence and freedom.

   9. CWChris Williamson46:31

      That's such a, that's such a lovely definition of freedom. Um, Rick Hanson and Forrest Hanson have this idea where they talk about, um, imagine yourself as the sort of person who can handle change well. And I think that sense of, "Maybe if I had a bit of a chaotic childhood, maybe if I didn't feel like anybody really had my back ever, I was sort of chronically uncertain and, and a little bit mistreated, and..." You know, varying degrees, or maybe a lot mistreated. Um, "I, I just fear change. I'm not convinced that I'm gonna be able to deal with it particularly well."

   10. ARAnna Runkle47:07

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, uh, if you've been through some hard times, you know, and many people have, I think that's something that we don't always realize about everybody. And part of my work is getting hundreds of letters from people who are going through a really hard time, is, uh, it's really, like, opened my heart. I'm a lot less, um, scornful-

   11. CWChris Williamson47:29

       Mm-hmm.

   12. ARAnna Runkle47:29

       ... of people who are screwing up. Like, I get it. I get it. And I've been there and, you know, it was a miracle that I got through a lot of the stuff I got through.

   13. CWChris Williamson47:37

       So, it seems to me like there's this deep sense of sort of wanting to be rescued or validated-

   14. ARAnna Runkle47:44

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson47:44

       ... by, by this other person in, in limerence. Is that right?

   16. ARAnna Runkle47:48

       Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, I mean, uh, uh, uh, uh, a real loving relationship is a bit of a validation. It's a healing, you know? There's that fundamental loneliness of being human. It doesn't, marriage doesn't fix everything, but, uh, you know, a good marriage is, is a healing of sorts. And so, it's, it's natural to want that. (laughs) One of my analogies is it's like plastic fruit. I, my nana, she was from Brooklyn and she, you know, they, she was an immigrant. Her family was from Norway. And she, (laughs) and, and she liked to have this baroque living room and there was, you know, like, fake chandeliers, and there was a bowl, like, this crystal bowl of plastic fruit. And as a kid, me and my cousins, we couldn't resist it. We were always just like, "Oh, those grapes. They just look so good." And we would bite into them, and they were like... (laughs) That's 'cause, that's what it's like.

   17. CWChris Williamson48:35

       (laughs)

   18. ARAnna Runkle48:35

       That's what y- that's, that's what limerence is like is you're just like, "Oh, that person is the most beautiful thing."You know, it's weird. I'm sure you get this. When once you're like on YouTube, it's a little bit like being a television star or something in the, in, in our small way and, and then people get it from me and they think they're, my videos were, um, about them. That would be an extreme case.

   19. CWChris Williamson48:58

       Mm-hmm.

   20. ARAnna Runkle48:59

       Or they just think, you know, they just think I understand them as nobody else can, and they're surprised when they meet me in person that I'm sort of, you know, I'm very friendly, um, and, and I look people in the eye and I'll give them a hug and listen and stuff but I actually don't know them. I don't know their name or anything.

   21. CWChris Williamson49:15

       Yeah.

   22. ARAnna Runkle49:15

       And that comes as a surprise.

   23. CWChris Williamson49:17

       Yeah, I've had a, a few encounters, not many. I think maybe it's the way that I present, uh, maybe it's that I'm, uh, sufficiently uninteresting outside of what I do on the show. I, I don't seem to attract many crazies at all.

   24. ARAnna Runkle49:33

       (laughs) .

   25. CWChris Williamson49:33

       Uh, but there's been a couple of, there's been a couple of situations, uh, that were a bit disturbing to me and a few of them that sort of went on for a really long time. Never anything that actually ended up manifesting in the real world but just stuff where I could tell somebody's really kind of got some mental distress going on and for some reason I've become the object of that and, uh-

   26. ARAnna Runkle49:52

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson49:52

       ... that made me, to be honest, the main reason that I tried to get that dealt with wasn't for them, it was for me because every time that s- it would pop up, I was like, "Fuck, like this person's really suffering." And, uh, I, I, I felt r- very uncomfortable, um, with that. So yeah, I mean, fuck.

9. 50:11 – 58:19

   Managing Our Own Needs And Responsibility

   1. CWChris Williamson50:11

      But c- just going back to that, um, the sort of deep wanting, uh, being rescued, being validated by another person-

   2. ARAnna Runkle50:19

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson50:19

      ... if we assume that there's a, a pedestalization, uh, this kind of imbalance, um, comparison's the thief of joy with regards to that.

   4. ARAnna Runkle50:29

      Yeah. Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson50:29

      And then if you also assume that the aloofness, the distance, the more that somebody pushes away, the more that it causes this, uh, limerence to occur. Uh, happiness is what happens when you stop feeling like there's something missing in your life. So between the fact that comparison is t- stealing your joy and that happiness is really, really difficult to achieve if you feel like there's this big hole that's inside of it.

   6. ARAnna Runkle50:53

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson50:54

      The, the despair and the anxiety that we talked about. So, uh, anxiety, I want this to be fixed. Despair, I feel bad. Anxiety, if I can get this thing fixed, then the despair will go away. It's a vicious loop. I- it seems like a, I don't know, like a perfectly designed, uh, mental pathology for people to have-

   8. ARAnna Runkle51:13

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson51:13

      ... that's self-reinforcing.

   10. ARAnna Runkle51:15

       And you'd almost have to wonder if there was some payoff in it, right? And, um, I've, I've got a book coming out in October, um, about that, um, I, I, I call it Covert Avoidance. That if you are continuously getting an, getting obsessed with or into a relationship with somebody who can't love you back-

   11. CWChris Williamson51:32

       Mm-hmm.

   12. ARAnna Runkle51:32

       ... you're avoidant. You're avoidant. And it's, you know, no one who's doing that perceives themselves as avoidant. They're hungry, they're chasing, they're trying, they're begging and hoping, but it's avoidance.

   13. CWChris Williamson51:44

       You know what it reminds me of? Have you heard of death by cop? You know what that is?

   14. ARAnna Runkle51:47

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson51:48

       Yeah, it, it's the relational equivalent of death by cop for avoidance.

   16. ARAnna Runkle51:53

       Oh, that's so good.

   17. CWChris Williamson51:54

       You know what I mean?

   18. ARAnna Runkle51:55

       Yeah, I do. (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson51:56

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   20. ARAnna Runkle51:57

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson51:57

       It's I am going to... So for the people that don't know, sometimes people that want to, uh, take their own lives, um, instead of jumping off a bridge or, or overdosing on drugs or whatever, they'll do something that causes a cop to pull their gun out and then they'll push to the limit of where they end up being killed by the police officer.

   22. ARAnna Runkle52:14

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson52:14

       And, uh, this, yeah, they purposefully dating somebody that you know is unavailable in order to not have to face the potential for attachment, genuine attachment-

   24. ARAnna Runkle52:29

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson52:29

       ... is, uh, you're outsourcing your own sense of avoidance to somebody else.

   26. ARAnna Runkle52:34

       That's exactly right. You've outsourced it. And now you can perceive yourself as the good one and, and put the power, the locus of control in the other person.

   27. CWChris Williamson52:44

       Well, you've assured your failure privately by avoiding your failure publicly, right?

   28. ARAnna Runkle52:48

       Yeah, yeah. And I don't think anybody does it consciously, but I think a lot of avoidance is like that. There's-

   29. CWChris Williamson52:54

       That's so interesting.

   30. ARAnna Runkle52:54

       ... so many forms that we are avoiding. We're avoiding our lives, we're avoiding true connection with other people and, uh, I, I've put a l- I've just finished my manuscript and I've, I've been-
10. 58:19 – 1:01:16

    Does Limerence Serve An Evolutionary Purpose?

    1. CWChris Williamson58:19

       Have you thought about whether or not limerence serves an evolutionary purpose?

    2. ARAnna Runkle58:24

       (laughs)

    3. CWChris Williamson58:24

       Is it like nature's way of forcing you to pursue a mate with blind obsession because there's not many around? Like, have you thought about why this might be adaptive?

    4. ARAnna Runkle58:34

       I feel like everything is like that. I mean, my experience as a person is that everybody has, like, good and bad. Everybody's kind of, like, capable of the same bad as the worst people, but we, we, we countervail it with efforts to, to do better things and to be virtuous. And so, (sighs) I kinda think... I, I, I'm not, I'm not of the school that everybody's a narcissist. I've, that word is, like, so overused. There is such a thing, and the, for, for the stuff I teach, it's more like the problem with narcissism is, is our own traits that are kind of narcissistic, where we get too self-centered. But I think even, I think everything is serving a purpose, and it might not be a good purpose anymore, but, like, I think people who actually are narcissists may be necessary for society. That's my theory. Somebody has to be Teflon. You know, somebody, (laughs) somebody has to just, like, not care that everybody hates them or that they're gonna get killed in the battle. They just have to be like, "But I'm the greatest." (laughs) Argh!

    5. CWChris Williamson59:29

       Mm-hmm.

    6. ARAnna Runkle59:30

       And we need those people, and so maybe, maybe we're misunderstanding. I think the idea... As a kid who grew up really poor, and my, I grew up in a family that was very educated but neglectful, and so my friends were sort of all on the wrong side of the tracks. And it took me a long time to sort of find my place, and I ended up getting, you know, well-educated, and I do have friends of all types. I, I've, that's a happy thing about my life, but, um, it was very stigmatizing and there were a lot of things I had no idea how to do, and that's one of, that's one of the topics that I'm also developing. I do content now, but just like, there needs to be an etiquette book for people who were raised feral. We don't know.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:00:08

       Oh, interesting.

    8. ARAnna Runkle1:00:09

       We don't know what it's like. Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:00:10

       How to be a human.doc

    10. ARAnna Runkle1:00:12

        How to be a human, yeah, yeah. So, I have a, I have a whole thing called Charm School for Feral Girls. Nobody, you know-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:00:19

        That's interesting.

    12. ARAnna Runkle1:00:19

        Everybody just assumes you know, and you know how to do this, and so a lot of information is like, like, in terms of like, how should women handle their sex lives, and they, th- I remember (laughs) when I was like, I don't know, 19 or something and in Cosmo Magazine, they were like, "When you've just had a one night stand with a guy, get up. Don't dwell on him. Get up, brush your teeth, do some sit-ups, and then go." And I was like, "Okay, got it." You know? (laughs) Act like this. It was just like, it was bullshit.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:00:46

        Mm-hmm.

    14. ARAnna Runkle1:00:46

        And (laughs) it, it was like bad advice, or another thing. I had, you know, I had to learn from stuff like TV. There was this commercial for the perfume, Enjoli, and this woman came on and she goes-... the most irresistible thing to a man is a woman who is helplessly in love with him. I was like, "Got it." You know? (laughs)

    15. CWChris Williamson1:01:06

        (laughs) Thanks, shameless marketing company.

    16. ARAnna Runkle1:01:08

        Yes, thank you.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:01:09

        I'll take that as my life strategy.

    18. ARAnna Runkle1:01:10

        Turns out it's totally resistible and weird and, for them, and uncomfortable. (laughs)

    19. CWChris Williamson1:01:15

        Right, yeah,

11. 1:01:16 – 1:14:32

    Is Limerence An Addiction?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:01:16

       odd.

    2. ARAnna Runkle1:01:16

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:01:16

       Okay, um, is, would you class limerence as some kind of an addiction? Because-

    4. ARAnna Runkle1:01:20

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:01:20

       ... neurologically, it seems to sort of mirror those dopamine patterns of addiction. So-

    6. ARAnna Runkle1:01:25

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:01:26

       ... uh, are they addicted to a person or the feeling? Uh, how do you unpack this?

    8. ARAnna Runkle1:01:31

       I think it, you could call it a person addiction, but really, I think it's an addiction to, because it's an addiction to hope. That's, uh, hope is the dope. It's hope. They don't really, like, in theory, they want to be with the person, but the thing that gives the high is, is cresting over from devastation to hope again. That little moment.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:01:51

       Oh, it's uncertainty to positive reinforcement. So it's like a slot machine. It's just, it's-

    10. ARAnna Runkle1:01:55

        It's like a slot machine.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:01:55

        ... variable, variable schedule reward, right, okay.

    12. ARAnna Runkle1:01:57

        Or it's like people who wanna suffocate, you know, when they're having sex or something, you know. Like, you wanna get that close to death and then, "Ah." (laughs)

    13. CWChris Williamson1:02:03

        Mm-hmm.

    14. ARAnna Runkle1:02:04

        It's like that. It's a, it's a, it's a really unhealthy and toxic high, and it leads to bad things. It makes people alone. And, and so very few people are actually willing to do what it takes to stop it. A lot of people ask me. Few follow through. But you s- you gotta stop talking about it. You gotta stop contact. The talking about it and thinking about it, like a lot of therapists will totally, like, spend all the time talking about that.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:02:28

        Right, just-

    16. ARAnna Runkle1:02:29

        But even...

    17. CWChris Williamson1:02:29

        ... indulging in whatever-

    18. ARAnna Runkle1:02:30

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:02:30

        ... this person's issue is.

    20. ARAnna Runkle1:02:32

        Yeah, and, "How do you feel about that?" and, "Oh, you had a dream. Tell me about that." And, and all of it's so interesting, and that's like, when you're addicted to hope, like, that's just fueling the addiction. Like, "Oh, how does heroin feel? What do you like best about it? You know, what does it smell like?" And, (laughs) you know, you wouldn't do that, would you? You have to, like, sort of clean up your environment, and you have to get in, you know, be with different people, and you have to stop cold turkey. And some people may have an easier, softer way out of it. They'll have to figure that out for themselves. But there comes a time when you realize you're only going down, and so you cut it off. I think it's very spiritual, too. I'm a spiritual person, and, um, I think that if you're craving the divine in another person, you actually need a spiritual life so that you're not misapprehending that spiritual inclination that's natural for you as being from one person. But you need fun. You need to start, like, going on bike rides and getting together with girlfriends and, and having people you can go to so you're not alone all the time with your feelings and people you are honest with. And they have 12-step programs for this, but I think what-

    21. CWChris Williamson1:03:36

        For limerence?

    22. ARAnna Runkle1:03:36

        For, yeah, for obsession.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:03:38

        Okay.

    24. ARAnna Runkle1:03:38

        And, Um, Sex and Love Addicts Anonymous is one place, but I think it's important for people to maybe go to gender-segregated meetings because, you know, like a room f-

    25. CWChris Williamson1:03:50

        I've heard about those.

    26. ARAnna Runkle1:03:50

        Yeah, a room full of people who are, you know, who have bad boundaries around this stuff and haven't figured it out yet. Um, so that can, that can go south. So, you know, in my own healing-

    27. CWChris Williamson1:04:01

        (laughs) Shouldn't laugh.

    28. ARAnna Runkle1:04:02

        ... I only ever healed when I asked for help from the most formidable scary person who I knew could see my shit and would tell me the truth about stuff and how I changed my-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:04:11

        Can I ask you who that was?

    30. ARAnna Runkle1:04:12

        It was a man friend who I knew, um, and, um, he, uh, I knew him in a 12-step environment, and we had known each other for 20 years, and there was never any attraction, and he was married, and, and it was, it was, it's kind of an odd choice in 12-step. But I had watched him help dozens of men change their lives, and the men, the problems they were having were a little different than mine, but they were like, uh, the equivalent of, like, living in your mom's basement, you know, in their 30s. And, um, you know, they would drive some shitty car and, um, feel very sorry for themselves all the time that girls didn't like them, and he would teach them to, like, suit up, you know, dress nicely, go take out a loan and get a proper car that would be appropriate for dating, start to set some standards, and then get to work really hard on the 12 steps. And so when I met my now-husband, I just kinda knew he was the one, but half thinking, "But I would think that, right? That's what I do." (laughs) But he was, like, a really good guy, and, um, and I could see that. And at the minute, I, and I was, I was, like, around him all the time. I was in this class that he was in, and whenever I was around him, I would wanna dress nicer, I'd wanna stop gossiping. Like, this really good part of myself was trying to come out 'cause I-

Episode duration: 1:23:19