Michael Malice - The Corporate Press Are Losing Control

1. 0:00 – 1:18

   Intro

   1. MMMichael Malice0:00

      This is what conservatives get wrong. Conservatives are, think that the enemy or the Labor Party or the Democrats here, and "We're gonna kick Joe Biden out of office, or we're going to beat Jeremy Corbyn," blah, blah. That's not the issue. Jeremy Corbyn is the tail. Joe Biden is the tail. The corporate press are the dog who are wagging that tail. (wind blows)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:19

      Michael Malice, welcome to the show.

   3. MMMichael Malice0:21

      Thank you so much, Chris.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:23

      How are you? Are you missing me?

   5. MMMichael Malice0:25

      Enormously. I text you all the time to hurry back.

   6. CWChris Williamson0:28

      Yes. Well, I'm back this week. You'll have me this week.

   7. MMMichael Malice0:30

      That's phenomenal.

   8. CWChris Williamson0:31

      Can't get rid of me. And then I'm going to see Jordan, Jordan Peterson over in San Antonio. What's San Antonio like? I've never been.

   9. MMMichael Malice0:38

      It's very corporate. It's, it's, um ... It almost feels like an '80s movie 'cause there's all these tall buildings. There's one cool little river that runs through the city, which is fun to kind of, uh, the river walk, but other than that, it's very much a concrete kind of edifice. And San Antonio's a m- f- ... Much bigger population, in my understanding, than Austin-

   10. CWChris Williamson0:57

       (laughs)

   11. MMMichael Malice0:58

       ... but there seems to be a bit of a, um, soullessness to it.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:02

       Yeah, that's kind of what I got from the outside, that it's, um, it's definitely a bigger sort of downtown area than Austin, but Austin's so distributed. We went for a walk through the burbs of Austin for two hours, and you realize-

   13. MMMichael Malice1:14

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:14

       ... it just stretches on and on and on and on.

   15. MMMichael Malice1:16

       Yeah, yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:17

       It's crazy.

2. 1:18 – 12:21

   Michael’s Thoughts on the Canadian Truckers

   1. CWChris Williamson1:18

      Have you been keeping up to date with the Canadian truckers protest thing?

   2. MMMichael Malice1:23

      Oh, yes. Uh, uh, not as much as other people, but most certainly.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:26

      The honking will continue until freedom improves.

   4. MMMichael Malice1:30

      So yeah-

   5. CWChris Williamson1:30

      (laughs)

   6. MMMichael Malice1:30

      ... I had this, um, chapter in my book, The New Right, that says, "Meme magic is real." And I'm sure most people listening, uh, have seen on social media that, uh, you know, in the last year or more certainly, there's been this meme of clown world, where people say something that's perfectly ridiculous and they're responded to with, uh, you know, a, a green clown, clown, uh, pressing his nose, or there's another meme where it's a, a lobster claw holding a clown nose saying, "Here, you drop this." So that had been a thing, and now literally (laughs) , they're literally honking.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:03

      (laughs)

   8. MMMichael Malice2:04

      And there's people on Reddit having meltdowns, uh, saying like, "I can't sleep. This is terrorism."

   9. CWChris Williamson2:11

      Yep.

   10. MMMichael Malice2:11

       Uh, and, and you're exactly right. The honking will continue. And th- the thing that's ... I, I've made this point several times and I'll make it again here, uh, especially with a British audience, that, um, there is a misconception by conservatives, and I mean American conservatives, I don't know about, uh, Tory conservatives in the UK, but that, you know, you know, in America especially there's different groups that th- the progressives latch onto to further their agenda. It's Muslim immigrants, it's transgender bathrooms one month, uh, or whatever, so on and so forth. And the point I always beat into their heads is, they don't really care about these groups. This is just whoever's a useful tool at the moment, and as soon as that group is defiant in any way, they're thrown into the rubbish bin as you'd say. And the best example of this is, you know, here we have the center-left parties, the Democrats obviously. There you guys have the Labor Party, but as soon as Labor starts (laughs) being defiant, all of a sudden they're Nazis. And it's just f- uh, a fascinating phenomenon to see, and I think it's just completely transparent how your measure of virtue as a, uh, an interest group is directly correlated to how useful you are to furthering a certain agenda.

   11. CWChris Williamson3:23

       Dude, that's so nailed it, like it i- i-

   12. MMMichael Malice3:26

       But it-

   13. CWChris Williamson3:26

       ... it's so transpiring.

   14. MMMichael Malice3:27

       And, uh, that's what I'm thinking, uh, is, isn't that also what, uh, broke down the so-called red wall in the last election, that these districts that had been, uh, Red, L- Labor's ... Red is a, um, more correctly than here we have here, Red is Labor, uh, over in the UK, these were Labor districts for, I think, almost a century that went Blue.

   15. CWChris Williamson3:46

       Yeah, and places like Hartlepool and Blyth that are both near me and where I've grown up, they are Labor strongholds. Pitt Village, m- my granddaddy-

   16. MMMichael Malice3:55

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson3:55

       ... was a miner and he hated Thatcher, and my daddy was a miner and he hated Thatcher. That ran on for a long time and then, you know, the left appears to be very much a sort of bourgeois, faux intellectual, this sort of middle class looking down on the underclass and the working class movement at the moment. And you're right, it's whoever's convenient. This is what Bridget said the other day, but she was actually taking the shot, uh, from a different angle talking about people that are on the right who are saying, "We care about women's rights because of these, uh, trans people that are encroaching on them." She's like-

   18. MMMichael Malice4:27

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson4:27

       ... "You don't care about fucking women's rights."

   20. MMMichael Malice4:29

       Y- right. You're correct.

   21. CWChris Williamson4:30

       "You don't care about them at all."

   22. MMMichael Malice4:32

       Yeah. And it, i- i- it most certainly goes both ways, yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson4:34

       It's just a convenient-

   24. MMMichael Malice4:34

       But there's a certain, uh ... But there's a certain irony in calling yourself Labor and (laughs) then telling people that the unions are Nazis.

   25. CWChris Williamson4:42

       What is it in Canada? What's the-

   26. MMMichael Malice4:44

       It's-

   27. CWChris Williamson4:44

       Have you got any idea how it's-

   28. MMMichael Malice4:45

       It's the Liberals.

   29. CWChris Williamson4:45

       Right, okay.

   30. MMMichael Malice4:46

       So they have the, the Liberals, uh, which is the center-left party. They have the Conservatives, which is fairly recent because the progressive conservatives had imploded in the '90s. And then they have a party to the left which is, what, they're the New Democrats I think they're called?
3. 12:21 – 16:50

   Increasing Victimhood in Society

   1. MMMichael Malice12:21

   2. CWChris Williamson12:21

      There's a guy who called into a show that I listened to saying that he hasn't had sleep in nearly five days now because of this honking. And that's the other side of it, where you go, "Okay," like that bit does suck. I've been kept awake by loud noises previously when I've been in cities, and it really is quite bad. I don't really know what you're supposed to do about that.

   3. MMMichael Malice12:39

      I, I don't believe him. It's not because of the honking, it's because of his neurosis. So, what COVID did very effectively was to allow, uh, highly educated, uh, urban people, which tend to correlate very well with, uh, mental illness such as anxiety and depression and other sorts of neurosis, this gives them an external source to blame for their issues. So instead of, you know, "I'm suffering because, you know, of me," "I'm suffering because everyone's suffering." Uh, so just because there is a cause for something, that does not mean that the response is proportional or dir- a direct, uh, a direct result of that cause. Uh, I don't believe... It's not possible that- Sure, I, I, I'll believe him that for five nights his sleep was poor, but, you know, it go- I, I have very little sympathy for him.

   4. CWChris Williamson13:31

      Yeah. And it's-

   5. MMMichael Malice13:32

      And the thing is, it's very important, you, you also remember that in this kind of culture, being a victim is a high status marker. So, the more you demonstrate that you personally are suffering as a consequence of bad people, the more virtuous there accordingly you, you can claim yourself to be.

   6. CWChris Williamson13:48

      I read a study the other day about people who are open about past lives of victimhood, uh, on dating profiles and how people respond to that. So, a lot of the time, typically people are positively inclined to the zero to hero story. And we see this get manipulated with, um, training plans, right? Here's a before person-

   7. MMMichael Malice14:08

      Oh, yeah, yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson14:09

      ... who was out of shape, and here's an in-person that's in shape and yes! You know, those are the sort of Instagram posts that get loads of likes. Um, interestingly, on dating apps, somebody that puts, "I used to be a victim, but now I have overcome my past traumas, and I am better," or whatever, uh, that doesn't get... That is negatively correlated with likes on, uh, dating apps. So there is something in there, maybe there's a, still a sense of sort of the cursed child type thing. The fact that something that was wrong with you in the past is... I- it's almost like a biological concern about somebody that was maybe diseased. That's how Rob Henderson put it across, that perhaps there's something that we're concerned this may come back. There's something icky as well that people have in response, and I've seen this happen online with somebody that opens up about depression. No matter how open the conversation about mental health gets, there's still always a little bit of just ick that sometimes happens that I see from people in their responses when others open up about it.

   9. MMMichael Malice15:14

      Don't you think it's 'cause depression is, I'm using this word very loosely, contagious? Like when we're around depressed people, it does not... It, it's, it, it's draining, uh-

   10. CWChris Williamson15:23

       Perhaps, but is victimhood the same? Past victimhood? "I've overcome my traumas."

   11. MMMichael Malice15:27

       Well, I think on dating apps, the, I, and I'm completely talking out of my ass, but there might be a gender issue, right? So if it's a man who the first thing he says is how he was victimized, I think women might be perceiving him as weak. And if a woman is talking about how she was a victim, men, uh, who already are predisposed to this, are going to perceive her as either high maintenance or cra- or crazy. Um, and this is really... But at the same time, I, I feel like, you know, someone who has had past trauma, and I've talked about this on Rogan in other episodes, that's quite an icebreaker. Uh, and I think there, that is, that is still correctly kind of a social taboo. If this is something you... If I meet you at a bar or a party, and this is one of the first things you tell me in five minutes, that's going to tell me, wait a minute, something is wrong here. That is something, if I got to know you more intimately, even just slightly int- to me, like an hour into the conversation, "Oh, you know, as a kid, you know, I grew up with an alcoholic mom," then, "Oh, okay," you know, that's fine, but if this is front and center, why is it important for you to be telling me this-

   12. CWChris Williamson16:34

       That's-

   13. MMMichael Malice16:35

       ... right up front?

   14. CWChris Williamson16:36

       Dude, that's really smart. So, what you're saying, uh, the fact that you have labeled yourself as it undermines the fact that you say you've transcended it.

   15. MMMichael Malice16:44

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson16:45

       Yeah, that's, that's a really fucking good insight. I'm going to send that to Rob. How closely are you following this

4. 16:50 – 27:12

   What is Happening in Russia & Ukraine?

   1. CWChris Williamson16:50

      Russia and Ukraine situation? Have... You were... You grew up in Lviv, right?

   2. MMMichael Malice16:55

      I grew up in Brooklyn. I was born there.

   3. CWChris Williamson16:57

      Bro- Born in Lviv?

   4. MMMichael Malice16:58

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson16:59

      Are you keeping your eyes on this?

   6. MMMichael Malice17:01

      No, very little. I am... What, what, the one thing I have noticed, um, is it's... I'm very disturbed by, of course, the war drums. Uh, you know, uh, Putin's no joke, Russia's no joke. And the Ukrainian president, from my understanding, went on the air and said, "The media's blowing this out of proportion. Things are not getting demonstrably worse. Uh, calm the hell down." So, and I also think I- if there's something anathema, as, at least in American media, about seeing things from other countries' perspectives, uh, 'cause we're the good guys and whatever we do is right, and they're the bad guys, and, or the weak, and, uh, suck it up. And if you are going to go to any country and put troops on the, foreign troops on the border, to expect that other country to just kind of be like, "Oh, it's America, they're the good guys, you know, this is fine," i- i- is bonkers. Same with British troops, you know what I mean? You're gonna get British troops in, in, in, you know, on the border of India, the Indians are gonna be like, "Hold on a minute, we- we've been through this before."

   7. CWChris Williamson18:05

      What do you think is gonna happen? Roll the clock forward.

   8. MMMichael Malice18:09

      Um-I, I'm sure that there, there always is in the US, and you know, very notoriously, this is the only quote from Eisenhower that people know, you know, he warned about the military-industrial complex, there is an enormous amount of profit to be made and a lot of power to be gained when a nation is at war. It does well for the president in terms of approval ratings. Uh, the nation rallies around in, in times of conflict. Uh, they get to go to the funerals and look at, at heroes. Uh, with all these coffins that didn't need to be there, um, you get to kinda seem strong. So there is an enormous incentive, um, you know, for Washington to have war. And in case people think, "Oh, you're talking crazy," keep in mind that last summer we killed a bunch of kids, uh, in Afghanistan, and not only did no one apologize, no one was even fired for it. So human life means absolutely nothing, uh, uh, to the federal government, and if it can be leveraged in any way to further the government's agenda, they'll be happy to do so. Um, I think Putin sees Biden as weak. Uh, certainly, Biden is in a weak position given a 50/50 Senate, given a five-seat majority in the House, which is 435 members total. Um, I, uh, I, uh, I don't know what's going to happen. I am concerned, uh, but I'm most concerned that there is an enormous incentive among American media and American politics to make this a bigger deal than it is. So it could be something like, you know, they take some town, which is not acceptable, and Ukraine and Putin would prefer to be like, "All right, pay us off. You get the town," or something like that, and the US insinuates itself and goes, "No, no, no, no, no. NATO, we're gonna protect borders, blah, blah, blah." So it's very easy to imagine a situation where the Americans make it infinitely worse.

   9. CWChris Williamson20:08

      And Boris is also embroiled now as well.

   10. MMMichael Malice20:12

       I, I, I don't think he's long for this world. I don't see how he survives this.

   11. CWChris Williamson20:16

       You think?

   12. MMMichael Malice20:17

       Well, I mean, isn't it... aren't all the To- I mean, Theresa May, my God, talk about a-

   13. CWChris Williamson20:21

       (laughs)

   14. MMMichael Malice20:22

       ... talk about a vampire rising from the grave. She went up on that floor, and she nuked him. I mean, she's been Lady Macbeth. She's been holding that... Lady Make-beth. She's been holding that knife for a long time, and she got him good. So if you had-

   15. CWChris Williamson20:38

       "I know, as a lady who had to go, I know when it is time to go."

   16. MMMichael Malice20:42

       She said that?

   17. CWChris Williamson20:43

       Yeah.

   18. MMMichael Malice20:44

       No, she didn't.

   19. CWChris Williamson20:45

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   20. MMMichael Malice20:46

       I didn't see that clip. I just saw him... She's like, "Which is it? Did you not believe in these rules? Or did you believe in them and not care about them?" I was like, "Holy crap." And she's right.

   21. CWChris Williamson20:54

       There was a bit where she said, "As someone who had to go, I know when it is time to go."

   22. MMMichael Malice20:59

       Holy crap.

   23. CWChris Williamson21:00

       (laughs)

   24. MMMichael Malice21:01

       But the thing is, he had four ministers quit, um-

   25. CWChris Williamson21:04

       It's just nowhere near enough, man. There's not gonna be... I, I don't think that... The only way that this is going to happen is if the next general election looks like he is too toxic to get the Conservatives across the line, and that seems unlikely given the fact that they just had the biggest landslide victory in 30 years or some shit.

   26. MMMichael Malice21:22

       So Labour is now seven points ahead in all polls. So if you look at, uh, Wikipedia has opinion polling for the next UK General Election, you can see the, it, it's a giant X. So you had a big line, Conservatives, Labour, then they tied, and now Sir Keir is way ahead in every single poll. So, you know, the same thing with Thatcher. The, you know, the reason Thatcher got kicked out by her own party, people in America couldn't wrap their heads around it, is because by that point in the... Well, one of the reasons, by that point in the polls, like Labour was shellacking them, and any politician is going to look after his own seat or her own seat first and foremost. And also, in, in all fairness, it's embarrassing. If I'm a Tory, you know, minister or a Tory backbencher, for me to campaign to put Boris Johnson back at Number 10, it's like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. I couldn't see my mom at her funeral. He's having keggers in, whatever, gin, I don't know, Pimm's, uh, at Number 10, and I'm supposed to vote for you?" And I, I would feel humiliated.

   27. CWChris Williamson22:18

       Yeah.

   28. MMMichael Malice22:19

       Uh, 'cause it was so gratuitous.

   29. CWChris Williamson22:23

       That's... I don't know. Uh, i- it, it really does... I don't know whether it's a flaw in the, the current system, and this probably plays into your hands quite nicely, that so much of an entire party hinges around one particular individual at the top. The fact that Boris doing something which, yeah, i- is a prick thing to do, but it's something that your fucking next-door neighbor could've done. It's not actually to do with his deployment of his duties. It's to do with the way that people perceive his personality, the way that he conducts himself. Yes, it was on government property that he was having these parties, but also, it's not really to do... It wasn't like he was lying to the fucking House of Lords or some shit. Um, it, it feels like a weakness because obviously, uh, within the system, attacking that person and making, degrading their particular value has a cascading, outsized effect across however many hundreds of different constituencies there are.

   30. MMMichael Malice23:18

       Yeah, that, that was a result of the later Thatcher years when she very much made it much more of a presidential model, uh, than a parliamentary, parliamentary model. Uh, like all her original people kinda, kinda left. She was l- left with a kinda second-tier nobodies who were only there by virtue of her personality. Uh, she was very much the face of the British government, whereas previously it was much more, you know, you had the Home Minister, Home Secretary. You had the Labour's, uh, education secretary, whatever they were, and they kinda took questions and very much managed their own portfolios, which is why you have a government which would have, you know, some, uh, people who were secretaries that were Conservative, some were Liberal, in both parties. But with her, when she became this kind of big international force, it really... And Tony Blair did this as well, um, it very much became, you know, that person becomes the face of Her Majesty's government, especially internationally, um, and i- it was a big sea change i- in, in UK politics, and it also doesn't hurt when Boris does have such a big...... you know, flamboyant appearance and flamboyant personality. Uh, this was an issue in terms of him, uh, getting in, you know ... Uh, was he going to be able to give Theresa May a run for her money? He chose not to run at the time, but, you know, this is ... When you have someone who's kind of this ... Either a large than life personality, or if you don't like him, a buffoon, you know, this becomes ... And this was also an issue for Corbyn, because, you know, the, the issue, the question was, do you want to put Jeremy Corbyn in Number 10? Uh, it very much nationalized and personalized the, the last election, and thankfully, the, the British voters resoundingly said no.
5. 27:12 – 33:58

   Whoopi Goldberg’s Holocaust Comments

   1. MMMichael Malice27:12

   2. CWChris Williamson27:12

      Hmm. What were your thoughts on the Whoopi Goldberg fallout this week?

   3. MMMichael Malice27:16

      Uh, I didn't w- ... Uh, I thought she ... Whoopi Goldberg is a philo-Semite. I- I did a project with her. She's very pro-Jewish, uh, in her personal life. Um, she's not an anti-Semite at all, it's crazy. I think she was just saying something kind of awkwardly, meaning the Holocaust wasn't ... And again, I could, I could be putting words in my mouth, maybe I'm being too generous in my interpretation of her, of her comments, but I thought she was saying the Holocaust isn't about race when she said it's about man's inhumanity to man. This is a much bigger issue than mere racism. This is something that is primal and central to an understanding of human nature, and I don't understand what suspending her for two weeks accomplishes. Uh, i- this ... Of course, genocide is an issue that should be treated carefully. When we're talking about murdering children, it's not the same as discussing tax rates, um, or, you know, what kind of hard-boiled eggs we should have for breakfast or whether those are healthy or not, but I think she was speaking in good faith. Um, I think she got lapped out to dry is my understanding, because she did what ABC told her to do, so she got out and apologized, and they still punched her after it, for which my understanding, uh, the reports are saying, uh, she was furious. Whoopi is ... Even though she's hard left, often un- ... Or unorthodox thinker, she spoke out how she defended George W. Bush in terms of immigration. She's against the, uh, death tax, which we have here. Um, so ... And she's often ... I think ... I've seen her, I think, speak to Hannity. I know she's spoken with hardcore conservatives who other people regard as radioactive, so I- I- I don't see what the suspending her will gain, um, except just make the issue radioactive as opposed to an issue that should be treated with decorum.

   4. CWChris Williamson29:04

      I don't think that her apology on the nighttime did her very many favors. She sort of entered it and it was okay, and then by the end of it, she'd ... She didn't really actually apologize. She basically said, "I'm sorry if you misinterpreted what I said," which is just the shittiest fucking way to do an apology-

   5. MMMichael Malice29:20

      Sure.

   6. CWChris Williamson29:20

      ... ever. Like, that was really poorly played, but I also agree, I- I- I think that it didn't seem to me like she was trying to ... Like she had a, a lack of sympathy particularly for that.

   7. MMMichael Malice29:30

      Right.

   8. CWChris Williamson29:30

      It was just very, very poorly worded, and it's The fucking View, like, this is supposed to get you ready for picking the kid- uh, drop ... You've dropped the kids off at school and you come back and you ... Why is this even a topic for them to discuss?

   9. MMMichael Malice29:45

      Well, they do a- ... They have th- ... 'Cause they have these issues all the time, but i- i- I mean, you c- ... If you suspended everyone from The View when they had a poorly thought out, poorly articulated opinion, you wouldn't have a show. I mean, this is the show where I- where-

   10. CWChris Williamson29:59

       Wasn't, wasn't Sharon Osbourne canceled from the show-

   11. MMMichael Malice30:01

       That's the-

   12. CWChris Williamson30:02

       ... for defending Piers Morgan?

   13. MMMichael Malice30:03

       That's The Talk.

   14. CWChris Williamson30:05

       Oh.

   15. MMMichael Malice30:05

       So The Talk was a ripoff show of The View.

   16. CWChris Williamson30:07

       (laughs)

   17. MMMichael Malice30:07

       It's basically the identical show. And she was ... Yeah, she got canceled for, for, uh, saying, you know, Piers might have a point, that Meghan Markle might be a sociopath, which her own family, bear you in mind, had said. Now, i- i- which is, uh, just so insane that ... The, the other thing about that's great about The View, side note, is, uh, Meghan McCain ...... has a pathological hatred of the British, and it comes out whenever these topics come out. So there had been issues where they were talking about, like, Prince Harry, and she's like, "My great-grandparents didn't fight the Redcoats for me to sit here and care about the F-ing British. And screw them, I don't have an opinion." (laughs) And she just goes on these bizarre rants whenever the UK, uh, Royal Family comes up. It's just beautiful. Um-

   18. CWChris Williamson30:53

       Well, I'm talk- I'm talking to Meghan McCain. She's got a new book out soon, I'm talking to a publisher about bringing her on, but now I've got second thoughts about that.

   19. MMMichael Malice31:02

       (laughs) I'll DM her right now and tell her. (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson31:05

       (laughs) Fucking hell. Yeah, man, I just... There, there feels like there's a thread between all of the things that we've seen at the moment, whether it be the Rogan situation, the trucker situation, the Whoopi Goldberg situation. Everything is at maximum volume the whole time. And what everyone is searching for is, this is the tip of the iceberg that shows us the remainder of your reprehensible personality. This one thing was a slip-up that you did that was maybe a small error or whatever, uh, but it's indicative of the fact that you fundamentally are a, a bad, horrible, racist, misogynist, whatever, person. And I think... I, I don't know whether I can lay it at the feet of the left or sort of woke ideology overall, but it certainly seems like with the situation with Whoopi Goldberg, a lot of people on the right saw this as an opportunity to be like, "Right, let's give them a taste of their own medicine. If they are going to demand such, what we feel are overblown responses to some of the things that we don't think are egregious, when the people on the left decide to make this much of an error, we're gonna try and throw the kitchen sink at it."

   21. MMMichael Malice32:11

       Yeah, but it didn't work, so what does that gain you? Um, so I, I... That's number one. And number two is, I think that, w- w- I agree with you what you're saying in terms of tip of the iceberg, but what I think the issue is, as COVID is receding as an excuse for, uh, cultural and social control and political control, both by media outlets and governments, they need a new excuse in order to have, you know, total domination over people's lives. And it's going to be really hard to find one, because a pandemic makes sense. This is something that affects literally everyone. This is something where you can only have quite limited control in terms of how it spreads. It's a virus, quite literally, it goes viral. Um, but if you're gonna pivot from that to kinda white supremacy, first of all, that's less tangible. Second of all, the number of people who identify as white supremacists is virtually nil, uh, and it's very hard to tell these truckers, for example, who are like, uh, "You know, I don't believe in these mandates." "Well, the only reason you care about that is white supremacy." It's like, well, the, the, the white supremacy is, "I'm driving through the snow and putting my life in danger all the time, 'cause this is the most dangerous job on Earth." So i- i- it's, they don't know where to pivot from, uh, you know, the last couple of years when they've had a great excuse to completely control every aspect of people's lives.

   22. CWChris Williamson33:33

       So there's a degree of anxiety that needs to be broadcast and-

   23. MMMichael Malice33:38

       Correct.

   24. CWChris Williamson33:38

       ... if you're unable to keep that with one very large warhead, you need multiple smaller ones to try and contribute to it.

   25. MMMichael Malice33:45

       Which are, it's, but it's nowhere near as effective. I mean, it's one thing to kinda, you know, nuke Hiroshima. It's another thing to be a sniper. It's just like, sure, the sniper's gonna make people scared, but it's nowhere near as unconditional surrender.

6. 33:58 – 39:13

   The Media are Worse than the Government

   1. MMMichael Malice33:58

   2. CWChris Williamson33:58

      Dude, I've just thought of something. So, you know how a lot of the time people get... One of the concerns that you have from more libertarian or conservative-type people is that during a crisis, the government is then going to overstep, and a lot of the rights that they seize from you during this time of emergency are ones that you don't get back.

   3. MMMichael Malice34:14

      Right.

   4. CWChris Williamson34:15

      What, what it sounds like you're saying here is that there is an equivalent with the media, that the media raise the water level of the neuroticism, the anxiety, the ambient anxiety that pervades through everything, uh, and, and sort of the volume of vitriol that is in the press. And they also aren't keen about-

   5. MMMichael Malice34:34

      Correct, of course.

   6. CWChris Williamson34:34

      ... allowing that.

   7. MMMichael Malice34:35

      The media are much-

   8. CWChris Williamson34:35

      Dude, that's such a fucking interesting model to think about.

   9. MMMichael Malice34:38

      The media are much worse than the governments, and, and we know this because, let's suppose I was a Democratic governor or a Labour minister, whatever, in the UK, and I looked at the data and I say, "Wait a minute, there's nothing behind this social distancing. This is nonsense. Like, where's this six feet coming from? How the hell is that gonna prevent anything?" And okay, theoretically you're saying it's gonna prevent it. Well, it's not working, because, you know, we had social distancing, COVID still spread everywhere. If I said this on television, I'd be out of office. Because immediately every outlet from left to right would be like, uh, you know, "Shadow Minister Malice doesn't, says social distancing doesn't work. He wants us to... Oh, he clearly wants us to die. He's not following the science. This guy's a lunatic, why is he opening his mouth? Look at all these people saying this." If social dist- and side note, if social distancing was efficacious, why aren't we bringing it back? And if we're not bringing it back, why did we do it to begin with? That's a separate note. But I would not be in a position, as a politician, to question this. And we know this because, you know, people called Gavin Newsom, who was the governor here of California, who was caught having dinner while social distancing rules were in effect. And there are many other such cases where, you know, politicians were just basically being hypocrites. They knew, but in their defense, what were they supposed to do? They, they had no choice but to follow this drumbeat, as you were saying, of ambient anxiety.

   10. CWChris Williamson36:02

       Dude, that's such a good concept to keep in mind that-

   11. MMMichael Malice36:07

       This is what conservatives get wrong. Conservatives are, think that the enemy or, uh, the Labour Party or the Democrats here, and, "We're gonna kick Joe Biden out of office, so we're going to be Jeremy Corbyn, blah, blah." That, that's not the issue when you have... Jeremy Corbyn is the tail. Joe Biden is the tail. The corporate press are the dog who are wagging that tail.

   12. CWChris Williamson36:27

       Fuck, man. I'm not gonna be able to get that out of my head.

   13. MMMichael Malice36:30

       But it's, uh, you cannot see it. Another example I used a couple of years ago was let's suppose I'm a Democratic politician and I think Trump is dividing America. I think he's completely either a racist or he's, uh, fuming the fuels of racism to further his agenda. And I think he's an ass, and I think he's uneducated, and I think he's boorish. And I think he has no business being in the White House. But I don't think he should be impeached or removed from office from a dopey phone call where he was fishing for something. That, uh, impeachment is never, no one has been removed from office before. Uh, this is, does not reach that level. I can't, as a Democrat, go in front of my constituents who heard four years of Russia, Russia, Russia, and Trump collu- collusion, and keep my seat. I did not have that freedom. So it's very clear who's in charge of whom.

   14. CWChris Williamson37:18

       Dude, do you follow-

   15. MMMichael Malice37:20

       Am I wrong?

   16. CWChris Williamson37:20

       No, you're not. And it's, it's, it's just when you see something that ties all of the threads together, that's like a common, uh, uh, uh, a single concept like that, that the goal of the press is to keep the volume high.

   17. MMMichael Malice37:32

       Yes.

   18. CWChris Williamson37:32

       That's actually what they're trying to achieve. And it explains why so many topics recently have been overblown. When you see, like, why the fuck endless, endless stories in mainstream media about Rogan, uh, about who he's had on the show or about what he said in the past or about whatever, and then reactions to the reactions. And then has the, the White House said something, or the Canadian truckers, or just pick whatever it is, because you're right, you know, if you've got a huge, huge vat of anxiety to fill and the pandemic starts to slowly get lifted out of that. So the, the question that I have that I always come back to, and it's the one that I keep on asking you about is, what is the end goal? Is it just that greater fear brings greater control?

   19. MMMichael Malice38:16

       It gi- it gives you power, it gives you strength, it gives you money, and it gives you a status because now everyone's looking to me to make decisions. Uh, so that's go- good for my ego and my se- status. And it also, uh, for many of the audience, it rationalizes their, um, mental disquiet, uh, now, uh, because they're, they're filling a need as well. So they're not cr- only creating a need, they're also filling a need, um, among, you know, educated, urban, uh, wealthy people who are kind of disquieted by their nature.

   20. CWChris Williamson38:49

       Do you follow Aella Girl on Twitter? A-E-L-L-A?

   21. MMMichael Malice38:55

       A-E-L-L... No, I never heard of her.

   22. CWChris Williamson38:57

       Okay. So she's part of, I guess, like, tangentially on the rationalist community, she's pretty interesting. She's written a lot of blog posts about how to maximize money on OnlyFans, but she's also big into philosophy and stuff as well. She's quite interesting. Anyway, she, she put this tweet out the other day that I thought

7. 39:13 – 54:30

   The Dark Side of Corporations

   1. CWChris Williamson39:13

      was really cool. "Uh, last year, my roommates and I had fun gam-"

   2. MMMichael Malice39:15

      Wait a minute. She's in Austin, and it says, she, her, her, uh, her Twitter biography simply has the word Whorelord.

   3. CWChris Williamson39:23

      Whorelord, yeah.

   4. MMMichael Malice39:24

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson39:25

      Yeah. Uh, yeah, she's interesting, man. She's worth a follow. Um, but she put this tweet up the other day that said, "Last year, my roommates and I had fun gambling with GameStop. One day, I woke up and said, 'You know, it's weird. I just don't feel interested in GameStop anymore.' And my roommate heard that and immediately sold right before the crash. I'm sort of having this feeling with woke stuff. There's something like, it's just not interesting anymore. I think part of me believes that big institutions don't really take it seriously. Scott Alexander echoed this in a recent, uh, Astral Codex 10 blog post, and I agree. It feels like I never actually run into woke people now. It's just not trendy." And this, I, I don't know how true this is because I've never really seen it other than on the internet. So, you know, the Libs of TikTok type videos that get captured and then put online, or a Matt Walsh, Ben Shapiro reaction video. Like, I'll see those. So that was only my, my only ever introduction to it. But I think that there's definitely something to be said for endless satire and mocking being really, really effective as a tool to make something so contaminated and toxic to be associated with that people no longer want to do it. Because you can try and litigate something out of existence, but it's really hard to do that, you know, to somehow try and top down it. But if you make it so uncool to be associated with just through, like, effective satire and mockery, people are just gonna drop it like a, a hot stone. They don't want to be associated with something that lowers their status.

   6. MMMichael Malice40:54

      Well, it's also kind of being a tryhard, right? So it's whether it's a bodybuilder, right, or someone who has a lot of makeup, but also a, a full beard. Uh, when you glance at this person, rightly or wrongly, a lot of people are like, "You are spending a lot of time on your appearance to create a reaction on sight when people see you, and I don't care what it is, but I'm not interested in learning more." Now, this is a prejudice that is incorrect. There's lots of people in both of those groups I mentioned who are quality people that you would learn a lot from. But when you are presenting yourself in a certain specific way that takes a lot of work and is several standard deviations away from what is considered, you know, acceptable or normal, whatever bad word you want to use, this is going to make people simply like, "Ugh, okay, here we go," right before they meet you. Um, and I disagree a little bit because corporate America is where things go to die. Uh, you know, they appropriate things from the fringes, they swallow them, and then they excrete them in a manner that's palatable to the masses. So we've got a ways to go before this kind of is, gets through the corporate kind of digestive system. Um, and, you know, the thing that people, uh, uh, uh, no one has as much contempt for corporate America as I do, but what people need to appreciate is they're often very bandwagon. These are not very bright, like someone will read an article in Bloomberg or Fortune, some 60-year-old exec about, "Oh, this company got a lot of free publicity from a viral video. Okay, we need to make a viral video."Now it's like, "What was that?" And he's like, "Well, I read this article..." Or like, "We need to have a blog." This was a thing. Or, "We should have a Twitter." Now, if you sat him down and said, "H- hold on. We make nails for kind of industrial concerns. Why do we need a Twitter?" "Um, hell- why do we need a Twitter? Did you not see this article from Fortune? It says this company's, you know, gr- uh, profits increased by 10% thanks to their social media. What are you, an idiot?" So I remember very much that, uh, and this is obviously a, a poor example, but it was a telling one, Trump's show The Apprentice, and there was some detergent commercial, detergent, let's, I don't even remember what it was, let's say Tide or whatever. And the task for both teams was create a viral video, and Perez Hilton was the judge, right? The blogger, Perez Hilton. And one team brought in a bunch of little people, and, like, the little person's in the washing machine, and they're running around. And I don't remember what the other team did, but it was something silly and goofy. And Perez is like, "These are great." Like, "I would share this with my friend." Like, they made a viral video. And then Trump, who's the host, sat down with the execs, and they were livid. They're like, "This is a family product, and you're making, like, you're being silly. Both of these are completely unacceptable." So what he wanted was, like, a commercial of Mom using the detergent, and now the detergent cleans the clothes, and for some oblivious reason, everyone is sharing this. And he had no concept of what a viral video was. So, they'll s- they'll be for this woke stuff, but th- these people are often effectively mindless. They'll just see some article and be like, "Oh, okay, diversity and inclusion, you know, helps company gain market share. Okay, we need that. And what that means is we're gonna hire a Black lady." I mean, they're, they're dumb and beyond dumb. Uh, and that's why I'm so confident that the good guys are gonna win.

   7. CWChris Williamson44:33

      Half of it is probably forward-thinking, aggressive growth motive, but maybe even more than that, to me, feels like fear, you know-

   8. MMMichael Malice44:42

      Oh, yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson44:43

      ... of the companies that have done this. It's a fear of what happens if you don't. But not-

   10. MMMichael Malice44:46

       Right.

   11. CWChris Williamson44:47

       M- most companies were posting the black square because if you didn't, the repercussions were grave.

   12. MMMichael Malice44:53

       Look at, look at CrossFit.

   13. CWChris Williamson44:55

       Yep. Fuck, man. I had... So I had Ben Bergeron on, who is the coach of Matt Fraser and Katrin, David's daughter, for a good period of time, two of the fittest athletes on the planet. He ow- owns CompTrain and CrossFit New England in Boston. And I had him on, and I was asking about the recent cancellations that have occurred. So, Greg Glassman, who is the founder, he tweeted some stuff that was inappropriate last, uh, two years ago now, (snaps fingers) instantly gone. A big bunch of people went with him, but there was one guy left, Dave Castro, director of the CrossFit Games, the guy that writes the workouts for the Open, so arguably the most influential and important person in all of CrossFit HQ. He's got... He used to be a Navy SEAL, very no bullshit, very straight down the line, kind of puts some people off, but a real character, right? Like, a... Not the same as this, but he, he is a figurehead in the same way that perhaps an Elon Musk would be a figurehead, right? That he is-

   14. MMMichael Malice45:49

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson45:49

       ... he adds to the brand with the way that, uh, he puts himself across. And sure enough, he, three weeks ago, posts on Instagram that he's been notified that his services are no longer needed, but he found out essentially through a news article, and that the guy that had taken over, Greg Glassman, the original owner's role, this Erik Rosa dude, had spoken to him and said, "Yeah, we, uh, we, we sort of don't need you anymore." Uh, even though this guy is very, very, very legit, probably one of the best programmers on the planet. And the reason that I think he went is he was the last vestige of the old guard, the final-

   16. MMMichael Malice46:25

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson46:26

       ... people that were in this company. And he's a risk. To have somebody like that now within a company, who will speak their mind, who doesn't really care about adhering to whatever the new doctrine and the new ideology is, having that person is rolling the dice every time that you let them say something on a microphone.

   18. MMMichael Malice46:42

       Yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. Uh, a- and so it's, um... A- a- and, and there's m- many cases like that. Uh, and that, that's the other thing. I, I, I worked at, um, Goldman Sachs and JP Morgan. The... You know, there's this kind of myth, or maybe it was the facts, that you, back in the day, you were a company man, you worked for a company, they took care of you, and, and, you know, you would stay with them all your life. The lack, the amount of loyalty these firms expect and the zero loyalty they have in return, the fact that he had to find this out from an article instead of him being given a big celebratory, save, public face-saving, like, "You know what? I'm moving on to form my own venture. Thank you, CrossFit. Thank you for helping us," you know what I mean? These are really nasty, uh, despicable, reprehensible people who will sell you genocide with a smile on their face. 'Cause this ties exactly back to these are the people who are selling, uh, missiles and tanks in order to kill children overseas. I remember, I bring this example all the time, 'cause this, to me, was the most disturbing example of corporate sociopathy. Uh, during the Iraq War, I believe this was on CNN, there was some executive, um, talking about, you know, the upcoming campaign against, uh, um, Baghdad. And they were talking about the shock and awe attack that was gonna be imminent. And he said, "If you have to ask, it's not shock and awe." And it's like, w- wait. You're s- you're presenting this like, if you have to ask if this is the biggest bouquet you've ever seen... You know what I mean? It's like, shock and awe means an entire city population, I'm sure many of whom were loyal to Saddam or were bad people, I'm sure many of whom had blood on their hands, but also thousands, if not tens of thousands, of children, tens of thousands of innocent people. If they're not terrorized, then we haven't done our job. And he had this big smile on his face, and you knew there was this big whiteboard, and he had sat down with the Department of Defense and talked about how awesome it's gonna be, that for 24 hours it would be stronger than the sun, and everyone there would be so terrified, they'd be literally crapping their pants and begging for surrender. And it's like, you are literally a demon.... um, you know, selling death and destruction and with a smile on your face, and have no concept of anything remotely close to humanity.

   19. CWChris Williamson49:03

       It's crazy that these people get into positions of power.

   20. MMMichael Malice49:06

       It's not crazy because it's like, it's the same way that, you know, uh, child predators are gonna go where the children are. They're going to be drawn to where their talents are of use.

   21. CWChris Williamson49:20

       How much of it do you think is innate and how much is a feedback mechanism from the position that they need to be in and the things they need to do once they get there?

   22. MMMichael Malice49:27

       Oh, that's a great question. I don't know. I could, I could give an answer but it would be completely-

   23. CWChris Williamson49:32

       It's broke science.

   24. MMMichael Malice49:32

       ... talking out of my ass.

   25. CWChris Williamson49:33

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   26. MMMichael Malice49:33

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson49:34

       Um, Melissa Chen tweeted the other day about how China's-

   28. MMMichael Malice49:37

       Oh, she's great.

   29. CWChris Williamson49:37

       ... China's mandatory app for health monitoring. Did you see this?

   30. MMMichael Malice49:41

       No.
8. 54:30 – 59:39

   What is the Agenda of the Press?

   1. CWChris Williamson54:30

      But it... So the, the main thing that I've taken away from today is that the press themselves are an entity with their own agenda, which, duh, you-

   2. MMMichael Malice54:39

      Not the... Can I interrupt you?

   3. CWChris Williamson54:40

      Yeah.

   4. MMMichael Malice54:41

      Not a bias, an agenda. Everyone knew that they had a bias, that's inevitable, we're gonna have a perspective.

   5. CWChris Williamson54:46

      Yes, yes.

   6. MMMichael Malice54:47

      That they have an agenda.

   7. CWChris Williamson54:49

      What's the difference?

   8. MMMichael Malice54:50

      Because a bias is, "Okay, I'm gonna look at this story from a la- a lab- labor point of view or liberal point of view, conservative or a Tory point of view," as opposed to...I am writing this story because I want people to feel a certain way. My goal isn't to inform, my goal isn't to inform, my goal is to manipulate. My goal is to effect social change.

   9. CWChris Williamson55:10

      That's scary.

   10. MMMichael Malice55:12

       Why?

   11. CWChris Williamson55:14

       Because they influence the opinions of so many people.

   12. MMMichael Malice55:20

       Sure, but those people are ... It's one mind and many persons.

   13. CWChris Williamson55:26

       Hmm. Yes, but it is a very large swath of the population. I, I, I keep on-

   14. MMMichael Malice55:34

       Correct.

   15. CWChris Williamson55:34

       I keep on thinking about this, the more that I dig into whatever you want to call it, the heterodox sphere of sense-making or whatever, the less that you can see how norm- normal people view the media that they consume. You know, m- vast majority of people, probably the first time they ever heard of Joe Rogan was when the Spotify deal went through, and then the next time might have been this week. You think, "Okay-"

   16. MMMichael Malice55:57

       No, the next time ... No, no. It was the Spotify deal, then Joe Rogan's irrelevant because of the Spotify deal. Because they tried to sing that song for a while, remember? That no one cares what he thinks anymore. And then it was, "Joe Rogan's a, is an existential threat to America," because he doesn't want people to get vaccinated, which he never said.

   17. CWChris Williamson56:15

       Rudy Giuliani was on the F- Fox's The Masked Singer. Did you see this?

   18. MMMichael Malice56:19

       No.

   19. CWChris Williamson56:20

       "Unmasking of Rudy Giuliani on Fox's The Masked Singer Prompts Judges Ken Jeong and Robin Thicke to Walk Off in Protest." Uh, Rudy Giuliani was unmasked as an exiting costumed contestant (laughs) in last week's taping of the first season seven episode of Fox's popular primetime show, The Masked Singer. Show is known for its jaw-dropping surprises when celebrity contestants shed their headpieces after they were eliminated. The reaction to Giuliani was perhaps the most polarizing the show has seen since 2020, The Masked Singer f-

   20. MMMichael Malice56:49

       Sarah Palin.

   21. CWChris Williamson56:49

       Yeah. The Masked Singer was (laughs) another Republican politician. Sarah Palin was unveiled as The Bear. I'm glad that we've got clarity on what character it was that she, uh, she decided to feature in.

   22. MMMichael Malice56:59

       I think she did Baby Got Back.

   23. CWChris Williamson57:03

       (laughs)

   24. MMMichael Malice57:04

       I'm pretty sure. So it wasn't just that it was Sarah Palin, who I'm sure has a perfectly fine ... I'm sending you voice, I wouldn't put that past her. But I think, yeah, it was Baby Got Back.

   25. CWChris Williamson57:15

       I love how ... So this is from Deadline.com. Deadline.com, uh, mention, "We aren't revealing which costume Rudy wore or what his swan song was. His exit won't w- won't air until next month, so you can still revel in his reveal. The theme of the new season is the good, the bad, and the cuddly. Your political affiliation determines which category Giuliani fits into." Deadline here says, "Once Jeong and Thicke exited, they eventually returned. Fellow judges Jenny McCarthy and Nicole Scherzinger remained on stage. They bantered with Giuliani, a controversial figure," for blah, blah, blah, blah. "Fox did not comment." Uh, yeah, Rudy Giuliani on ... I mean, that's from White House to Shite House, isn't it?

   26. MMMichael Malice57:56

       Well, I mean, he's been, uh ... Really lost a lot of credibility among Republicans for how he handled, um, the Trump election in 2020. Uh, he kind of made a big ass of himself, and I know there was one press conference-

   27. CWChris Williamson58:13

       Where his hair dye started le-

   28. MMMichael Malice58:14

       ... where her booked it (laughs) - ... leaking down his face.

   29. CWChris Williamson58:15

       Was that the same one where he booked it outside of, like, an air conditioning factory? Did you see that?

   30. MMMichael Malice58:20

       No.
9. 59:39 – 1:06:38

   Touring Tesla with Elon Musk, Joe Rogan and Jordan Peterson

   1. CWChris Williamson59:39

      How was the night that I missed at the Tesla factory? Because we haven't had, we haven't got to speak about this.

   2. MMMichael Malice59:43

      Oh, god. Talk about imposter syndrome. You know, I'm there with, midnight, with Jordan Peterson, Elon Musk and Joe Rogan. Mikhaila was there, of course, who I'm pals with. Um, and if you had told ... This, the factory's gigantic. I've never been in a factory that big. And-

   3. CWChris Williamson1:00:00

      Giga, gigafactory, right?

   4. MMMichael Malice1:00:02

      Is that what it's called? I don't know.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:00:03

      I think so.

   6. MMMichael Malice1:00:04

      It's like a Tesla drive or something. But if you had told me that there was ... 'Cause it's very brightly lit, right? And Austin is not bright at night 'cause there's not a lot of streetlights, like back in New York, obviously. Um, and I'm sure Newcastle, it might be the same way. If there, if you had ... There, and there's people there at, like, midnight, like, "Who are they ... Like, what's going on over there?" And if you had told me that, um, like, one of these rooms had a UFO that they were reverse engineering, it very much felt like Independence Day when they were doing that. And I was like, "Can I, who can I look at? Who can I talk to?" I was very, um, this is ... It was kind of almost like being, like, North Korea. Like, when you're in North Korea, uh, you're there, you're like, "This is not my place." Like, "I don't belong here." So you really got to be on guard about what you say, look at or do, and make eye contact the whole time. So when I was there, even though I'd, I'd been invited and cleared, I was still like, "All right," like, "Am I allowed into this truck? Can I take a picture of this?" Like, I, I was just so scared.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:01:05

      Fun though.

   8. MMMichael Malice1:01:06

      Uh, I don't know if that would be the word. It, it, like mind a- awe- awe-inspiring.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:01:12

      Why not fun? Nervousness?

   10. MMMichael Malice1:01:14

       Yeah. I, I just, I couldn't let my guard down.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:01:17

       Did you get to meet Elon? 'Cause you were there when he was recording his Babylon Bee thing, but you-

   12. MMMichael Malice1:01:21

       Yeah, I didn't get to talk to him. Um, we all hung out after. I, I didn't wanna be that guy.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:01:26

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MMMichael Malice1:01:26

       Um, uh, yeah, you know, I, I just spent time talking to the Petersens and Joe.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:01:32

       Cool. There was a story that I read the other day about a SpaceX rocket on a collision course with the moon after spending almost seven years hurtling through space. So the booster got launched in 2015, it was doing some shit, and then, uh, it ended up in a very chaotic orbit, and, uh, eventually it's going to hit the moon. And it's not gonna be a big deal, but, uh, space fanatics look forward to seeing what lessons can come from it. Went through its la- Lagrange point, a gravity-neutral position, four times further than the moon and in direct line with the sun, and then the rocket's second stage is gonna end up falling into it. So Elon is, uh, also getting rid of his rockets by hitting them into the moon.

   16. MMMichael Malice1:02:13

       Okay, cool. Uh, America, uh, the Earth's garbage pit.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:02:17

       The moon. Yeah, the Earth's garbage pit.

   18. MMMichael Malice1:02:19

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:02:19

       Uh, what have you got coming up? How's everything else with you?

   20. MMMichael Malice1:02:23

       Uh, I'm writing about, um, the Holodomor now, so that's, uh, not very fun.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:02:29

       What's that?

   22. MMMichael Malice1:02:29

       That's when Stalin starved millions of Ukrainians, um, and, and it was... The most disturbing part is if they ransacked your house and you didn't have any grain, that's how they knew you were hiding it, right? That's the logic. So you better freaking find it. So they'd go search your house during the day, search it again at night, um, if... They would just burn people's houses down, throw them in the street, including whole families, naked, uh, in the middle of winter, uh, break people's hands in doorknob, in door jams, things like that. Um, and the thing is, if you weren't starving, your own body betrayed you 'cause they could look at you and see, "Oh, you have food, and you better fucking hand it over." So this was... And it was covered up by the Western journalists at the time, who said, "There's no famine" and "This is just anti-Russia propaganda." So going through that, writing about it for the next book is, uh, uh, it's, it's... This is not a particularly insightful thing to say, but when you hear about, you know, children being starved to death intentionally, it, it does a number on you.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:03:28

       Do you find it-

   24. MMMichael Malice1:03:28

       And I've been working.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:03:29

       I was gonna say, is it emotionally draining to write that stuff?

   26. MMMichael Malice1:03:32

       Yeah, especially because, you know, many of the people who covered this up were never held accountable to this day. And also the fact that this is in public knowledge, the fact that you were like, "What's that?" I mean, th- this, this is a, a, a d- complete atrocity, crime against humanity, um, just awful, awful thing. And, uh, it's just... It's also, it's heartening to know that this is gonna be widely read, and that I get to kinda, uh, you know, advocate for these people and, and give them their testimony. This is where I'm from, so it kinda... Knowing this is in my DNA also kinda hits a little close to home, but it's, it's rough.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:04:15

       I learned about, uh, Pol Pot had a-

   28. MMMichael Malice1:04:19

       Oh, yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:04:20

       He had a, a series of situations where anybody who wore glasses was immediately killed, because-

   30. MMMichael Malice1:04:28

       Yeah.
10. 1:06:38 – 1:07:11

    Where to Find Michael

    1. MMMichael Malice1:06:38

    2. CWChris Williamson1:06:38

       Michael Malice, ladies and gentlemen. People want to keep up to date with what you're doing, where should they go?

    3. MMMichael Malice1:06:44

       To the psychiatrist.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:06:49

       (laughs) See you soon, man.

    5. MMMichael Malice1:06:50

       See you soon.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:06:52

       What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:07:11