Sobriety And The Future Of Social Media Marketing | Dominic McGregor

1. 0:00 – 4:40

   Catching up: one year on, internet “midnight browsing” as a personality tell

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      I'm joined by Dominic McGregor of Social Chain.

   2. DMDominic McGregor0:03

      The way I think you can only really know someone is what they consume on the internet between the hours of 11:30 and 12:30-

   3. CWChris Williamson0:10

      (laughs)

   4. DMDominic McGregor0:10

      ... when no one else is around.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:12

      (laughs) So you're another year sober now. How long is it now, two and a half years?

   6. DMDominic McGregor0:15

      Two years and nine months. I've gone from 23 to 26, so when you mention that you don't drink to a 26-year-old, they get it.

   7. CWChris Williamson0:21

      Mm-hmm.

   8. DMDominic McGregor0:22

      So-

   9. CWChris Williamson0:22

      When you do it to 23-year-olds, they get it a bit less.

   10. DMDominic McGregor0:24

       They don't get it. There's no situation where-

   11. CWChris Williamson0:26

       (laughs)

   12. DMDominic McGregor0:26

       ... I'd feel like I'd ever need to drink. It's the same way if, if I, if, if we were sat here talking about cocaine and I said, "I'm never gonna do cocaine again," you wouldn't question me.

   13. CWChris Williamson0:32

       If you're drinking, especially heavily, you'll be less picky about your social engagements-

   14. DMDominic McGregor0:36

       Yep.

   15. CWChris Williamson0:36

       ... because you know that if you've got shit or boring friends, or you've got to go to some party that you probably don't wanna go to anyway, kinda doesn't really matter 'cause you can just sedate the boredom by getting lashed. Like, if you want to go out and drink, that is fine, but you have to concede that that drink is either, at the best, keeping your life the same length or making it shorter. Every night out and every drink that you have is bringing you closer to death, and that's a fact.

   16. DMDominic McGregor1:01

       Mm-hmm. (wind blowing)

   17. CWChris Williamson1:02

       Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. I'm joined by Dominic McGregor of Social Chain fame. How are you, man?

   18. DMDominic McGregor1:08

       Good, thank you. How are you?

   19. CWChris Williamson1:09

       Very good. Welcome to my studio.

   20. DMDominic McGregor1:11

       Yeah, it's nice, yeah. Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:12

       It's really lovely here, isn't it?

   22. DMDominic McGregor1:14

       Or better than the last episode. (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson1:16

       (laughs) Um, it's been almost exactly a year since we sat down.

   24. DMDominic McGregor1:19

       Yeah, a year. Yeah, about a year and two weeks.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:22

       Yeah.

   26. DMDominic McGregor1:22

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:22

       Almost exactly bang on. How have you been last year?

   28. DMDominic McGregor1:25

       Yeah, been, been, been really good. Um, I was, I s- messaged you the oth- the other week because I was in the gym, and a lovely woman called, um, Tracy said to me, "Oh, heard you, heard you on a podcast." I went, "Oh, uh, uh, hi." She's like the PT there. I've never seen her, she must be new or something.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:42

       Mm-hmm.

   30. DMDominic McGregor1:42

       And she's like, "Oh, um, wh- well, which one?" And s- uh, um, Mo- uh, Modern Wisdom. I was like, "Oh, okay."
2. 4:40 – 9:52

   YouTube suggestions expose taste—and a detour into Gary Vee, hustle culture, and sleep

   1. DMDominic McGregor4:40

      Um, mine are really boring. Uh, they actually are-

   2. CWChris Williamson4:43

      Wow. You, you've been, like, well into Brexit and, and research in that recently. Is it just a lot of political stuff?

   3. DMDominic McGregor4:48

      Um, number one ...

   4. CWChris Williamson4:50

      (laughs) This is good.

   5. DMDominic McGregor4:53

      ... Empire, How Britain Made the Modern World.

   6. CWChris Williamson4:56

      There we go.

   7. DMDominic McGregor4:57

      That's pretty normal, pretty normal.

   8. CWChris Williamson4:58

      Mm-hmm. Number one for me, Little Figure, Little Finger is the Protagonist, Game of Thrones Ending.

   9. DMDominic McGregor5:07

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson5:08

       (laughs)

   11. DMDominic McGregor5:08

       Straight onto the Game of Thrones content.

   12. CWChris Williamson5:10

       Yeah.

   13. DMDominic McGregor5:11

       Um, Breaking News, Theresa May's Brexit Deal Rejected.

   14. CWChris Williamson5:16

       Oh, god.

   15. DMDominic McGregor5:16

       Gotta get a Brexit on there.

   16. CWChris Williamson5:17

       Yeah.

   17. DMDominic McGregor5:18

       Yep. Um, I'll scroll through a couple. Um, s- f- Game of Thrones Season Eight teaser, White Walkers.

   18. CWChris Williamson5:26

       Yeah.

   19. DMDominic McGregor5:27

       Bit of Game of Thrones in there.

   20. CWChris Williamson5:28

       Mm-hmm.

   21. DMDominic McGregor5:29

       Nothing, nothing too bad. How China's Rise Will Change the World.

   22. CWChris Williamson5:33

       I think I've seen that one as well.

   23. DMDominic McGregor5:34

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson5:34

       Uh, so I've got some Jordan Peterson.

   25. DMDominic McGregor5:36

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson5:36

       Joe Rogan on Leaving Neverland. Uh, it's-

   27. DMDominic McGregor5:39

       Oh my god, yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson5:39

       ... just an image of him and Michael Jackson, which is a bit bizarre. Graham Hancock, uh, Ancient Advanced Technology, Technologies of the Gods. Graham Hancock's like a, an Egyptologist guy. Uh, now I really don't know how this is on there. So Gary, Gary Vee, Gary Vee Archives is on there.

   29. DMDominic McGregor5:54

       We've got a big Gary Vee fan in the house. (laughs)

   30. CWChris Williamson5:56

       I could not be further from the truth-
3. 9:52 – 12:48

   Two years, nine months sober: when drinking becomes unthinkable

   1. CWChris Williamson9:52

      Um, so you're another year sober now. How long is it now, two and a half years?

   2. DMDominic McGregor9:56

      All the way on, yeah. Two, two... When, it's July, and we're in March, so two years and nine months.

   3. CWChris Williamson10:03

      Wow.

   4. DMDominic McGregor10:04

      Yeah, it's pretty... The second... This year is like, like literally this year has just been a weird... It's like... Not, it's b- it's a weird one because now it's, it's n- it, the... I'm at a point where I don't remember.

   5. CWChris Williamson10:16

      Mm-hmm.

   6. DMDominic McGregor10:16

      I really don't remember what it was like to drink.

   7. CWChris Williamson10:18

      Mm-hmm.

   8. DMDominic McGregor10:18

      So I'm so past it now that like... I'm just beyond it. It, it's, it's, it's really hard for me to talk about it now, because I just don't recall the feeling.

   9. CWChris Williamson10:29

      Like, like a different person.

   10. DMDominic McGregor10:30

       Yeah, yeah. And, um, oh, again, like I said, I was back home at the week- weekend, and one of the guys who, uh, was two years above me from school was there, and he said that he's, um, doing, gonna do a year sober because of health, because of things he's s- he's seen, and obviously he said that I was big influence on it. And I said to him that, "You don't..." I think I said last time, "You don't see an impact until six months."

   11. CWChris Williamson10:49

       Mm-hmm.

   12. DMDominic McGregor10:49

       So like, the whole dry January buzz, like you don't, you won't, you won't see a difference in the, the, the three weeks, whatever you do in January.

   13. CWChris Williamson10:55

       Mm-hmm.

   14. DMDominic McGregor10:55

       You won't see it. You know, for me, the difference like I f- I saw in the first year, and then in the second year, is completely nominal to what I'm feeling now.

   15. CWChris Williamson11:08

       (laughs)

   16. DMDominic McGregor11:09

       (laughs) Yeah. So it's like I-

   17. CWChris Williamson11:09

       Which is bizarre, 'cause at the time, you're actually like-

   18. DMDominic McGregor11:12

       Yes.

   19. CWChris Williamson11:12

       ... "Oh my God, this is world-changing." And then-

   20. DMDominic McGregor11:15

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson11:15

       ... you in a year and a half goes, (sighs) "That's nothing."

   22. DMDominic McGregor11:17

       That's n- I know. It's really, it's, it's like an exponential growth in yourself. Um, obviously the start is very rapid because there's such dramatic changes.

   23. CWChris Williamson11:26

       Yeah.

   24. DMDominic McGregor11:26

       But you get to a point now where, like life isn't... Like, this is actually gonna sound a bit weird, but people who need to find things like, uh, meditation and oth- other aspects to find peace, uh, and who search that kind of like, um...

   25. CWChris Williamson11:42

       Inner self.

   26. DMDominic McGregor11:43

       Yeah. Like I don't feel like I need to do any of that because I've already got it. I've got the balance in myself at the mo- already. Like I don't, I can, I can just, I can just be-

   27. CWChris Williamson11:52

       Mm-hmm.

   28. DMDominic McGregor11:53

       ... rather than having to like subscribe to like, um, quick fixes or oth- other things to try and like focus or relax or... So like I'm just like in a complete state of-... okay-ness. (laughs)

   29. CWChris Williamson12:06

       Mm. I wonder how long that equanimity will continue with sobriety, because I do think that a lot of that will be due to contrast.

   30. DMDominic McGregor12:15

       Mm-hmm. That, definitely.
4. 12:48 – 14:38

   Health tradeoffs and homeostasis: routines, resilience, and gut/immune tweaks

   1. DMDominic McGregor12:48

      I was out, I went out, I did go, I went out Saturday night till about 3:00 in the morning.

   2. CWChris Williamson12:51

      Mm-hmm.

   3. DMDominic McGregor12:52

      All right? Which is a, which is, you know, if you're drinking till late night, you know,, I'm not drinking-

   4. CWChris Williamson12:55

      It's a late finish sober, yeah.

   5. DMDominic McGregor12:56

      Late finish. And I, I, I've been ill since then. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson13:02

      (laughs)

   7. DMDominic McGregor13:02

      So like, it's all relative, but like I'm still going out, but I'm feeling worse.

   8. CWChris Williamson13:06

      Yeah.

   9. DMDominic McGregor13:06

      So like, my b-, I, but what I have learned this year, um, is that n- drinking does build a slight, a slight bit of resilience within yourself. So I am more s-, when, when I over-exercise, I'm more susceptible to illness.

   10. CWChris Williamson13:18

       100%, yeah.

   11. DMDominic McGregor13:19

       Um, I've got, uh, issues with my gut which I need to manage, because taking alcohol out means that you grow bad bac- bacteria. Um-

   12. CWChris Williamson13:28

       Is it true?

   13. DMDominic McGregor13:29

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson13:29

       So alcohol would-

   15. DMDominic McGregor13:30

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson13:30

       ... clean it out, to a degree?

   17. DMDominic McGregor13:31

       Yeah. Alcohol cleans you out. Uh, obviously, like, a nominal aspe- normal amount of it.

   18. CWChris Williamson13:35

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   19. DMDominic McGregor13:35

       But like, you, you, you create a, a culture in your gut which allows you to, uh, harbor negative bacteria-

   20. CWChris Williamson13:43

       Okay.

   21. DMDominic McGregor13:43

       ... because you're not putting any, any toxins in there to, to rid them. (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson13:45

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   23. DMDominic McGregor13:46

       So you've got like, there's, there's things that you've, you know, your, your body is such a wonderful thing, um, that everything is in balance, and when you do-

   24. CWChris Williamson13:53

       You reach homeostasis eventually.

   25. DMDominic McGregor13:55

       Yeah, exactly. And that's, that's the point now this year, I've been j- I've been like discovering there's, like, other things that you've got to manage. There's always something to manage, so it's been-

   26. CWChris Williamson14:03

       Mm-hmm.

   27. DMDominic McGregor14:03

       ... a bit, it's a, again, like, my s-, I've, I've been focusing on my sleep, so when I go out till 3:00, my immune system's like, "What are you doing?"

   28. CWChris Williamson14:10

       Mm-hmm.

   29. DMDominic McGregor14:10

       Like, "Get back to bed." Like, honestly, it's like, it's, if you break the routine, it, it really does hu-, it really does dama- damage me.

   30. CWChris Williamson14:17

       Mm.
5. 14:38 – 17:23

   Control vs “substance still controlling you”: why Dominic won’t reintroduce alcohol

   1. CWChris Williamson14:38

      So this was something that I wanted to touch on. One of the last questions that I asked you the last time we sat down was, um, something that I'd been pondering for a while about people who choose to go sober to get themselves around either a substance dependency-

   2. DMDominic McGregor14:54

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson14:55

      ... or, um, an i- a more habitual dependency on the situation and on-

   4. DMDominic McGregor15:00

      Mm.

   5. CWChris Williamson15:00

      ... on the feelings that come from that. Um, and that there's a, I think there's an argument to be made that going completely sober still allows the substance to have some degree of control over you.

   6. DMDominic McGregor15:14

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson15:15

      But the, a reintroduction of it on your terms is the ultimate completion.

   8. DMDominic McGregor15:20

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson15:20

      Um, and you said at the time that your feelings were you weren't going to drink for the foreseeable future-

   10. DMDominic McGregor15:28

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson15:28

       ... for as long as you could see.

   12. DMDominic McGregor15:30

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson15:30

       One of the reasons being a fear about potential relapse-

   14. DMDominic McGregor15:34

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson15:34

       ... and also just that you didn't want the downstream effect of drinking full stop.

   16. DMDominic McGregor15:38

       Yep.

   17. CWChris Williamson15:39

       Where are you at now with that?

   18. DMDominic McGregor15:40

       So the way I, the way I think about it now is that my problem never was the drinking. That, my, the problem with the... The drinking was a side effect of what was, like, inherently wrong with me, so it was an escape mechanism. So I would turn to that when I needed, um, to funnel my energy and anxieties and situation and escape it. So I can now deal with that feeling elsewhere. Um, so I can deal with it, um, through going for a walk, or I can deal with it with just, you know, having 20 minutes of silence to myself and kind of going, processing it and getting it out of my system. So I don't need the, uh, to turn to alcohol to solve that problem anymore, um, also because it's detrimental when you turn to alcohol and use it to solve them problems. So, um, I don't, I don't need it, wh- for, I would use it before.

   19. CWChris Williamson16:31

       Mm-hmm.

   20. DMDominic McGregor16:31

       So then it becomes a com-, uh, then it becomes a complete question of health and lifestyle choices, because it's, you're not dependent on it anymore. You're not s-, you're not, you're not a s- a substance abuser. But you make a choice that, "Why do I need to bring that back into my life?" And if you c-, if I can, I think I said it last time, if I can ever find a, a reason why I need to bring it back into my life, I will.

   21. CWChris Williamson16:50

       Mm-hmm.

   22. DMDominic McGregor16:51

       But I can't.

   23. CWChris Williamson16:52

       Right now.

   24. DMDominic McGregor16:52

       Right now. I, I, and I don't, I can't foresee a situation where I never needed to bring it back into my life.

   25. CWChris Williamson16:59

       Mm.

   26. DMDominic McGregor16:59

       I just don't, I just d- I can't. There's n-, there's no, there's n- there's no... I, I, I could do every-, like I said, I do everything I, I want. I can go out. I can spend time with friends. I can go to the pub. Like, there's noth-, there's no situation-

   27. CWChris Williamson17:12

       Mm.

   28. DMDominic McGregor17:12

       ... where I'd feel like I'd ever need to drink. Um, and it's the, like I said, it's the same way if, if a-, if, if we were sat here talking about cocaine.

   29. CWChris Williamson17:19

       Mm-hmm.

   30. DMDominic McGregor17:20

       And I said, "I'm never gonna do cocaine again."
6. 17:23 – 20:33

   The only drug you must justify not taking: social pressure, age shifts, and “wish I could”

   1. CWChris Williamson17:23

      Yeah. So I did a, I did a podcast with Ed Latimore, who is a very, very clever guy. Again, sings from the sobriety hymn sheet. Little bit more, I think he's maybe six years sober now.

   2. DMDominic McGregor17:32

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson17:33

      And, um, released this podcast on, think it was like New Year's Day this year, uh, and his birthday came up shortly after. Wished him a happy birthday and said, "Hey man, like, loved, loved speaking to you about this," and I linked him to our last chat. Loads of resonation with that as well. And uh, he said this line in it, man. Uh, fucking hell. Like it just hit me so hard in the feels. And he said, "Alcohol is the only drug where if you don't do it, people assume you have a problem."

   4. DMDominic McGregor17:58

      Yeah. Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson18:00

      Like, no one's going up to you and going, "Oh man, like, why, why, why are you not taking heroin today?"

   6. DMDominic McGregor18:04

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson18:04

      Or like, "Why are you not, like, sniffing a big, a big fat line on a morning or like after work," or whatever. You're like...But with alcohol, actually someone very clever and contrarian on Twitter piped up and said, "Coffee."

   8. DMDominic McGregor18:19

      Coffee's the same, yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson18:19

      Like, "Caffeine's probably the same."

   10. DMDominic McGregor18:21

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson18:21

       What? You don't drink coffee? Like, that's the only one? But then maybe 50 years ago people would've said the same about smoking. Maybe 100 years ago people would've been like, "What, you don't smoke?" Doctors were prescribing, there was adverts saying, um, more doctors smoke Camels than any other type of cigarette because that was some sort of like accolade for why you should smoke Camels.

   12. DMDominic McGregor18:44

       (laughs) Yeah. I've not thought, thought about smoking before. Yeah, you're probably, you're probably right because when it was first introduced it was cool. It was cool, wasn't it? It was chewing tobacco and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, no, but I've never thought about it. Yeah, but completely, it's the only drug you have to justify by not taking.

   13. CWChris Williamson18:58

       (laughs)

   14. DMDominic McGregor18:59

       The only thing.

   15. CWChris Williamson19:00

       Are you getting bored of having to justify it now?

   16. DMDominic McGregor19:02

       I don't need to justify any more. I think people, pe-

   17. CWChris Williamson19:05

       E- e- everyone that you're in contact with now just knows?

   18. DMDominic McGregor19:08

       Everyone that, uh, i- is, i- two things I think. I think it's been three years now, so I've gone from 23 to 26.

   19. CWChris Williamson19:14

       Yep.

   20. DMDominic McGregor19:15

       Um, so when you mention that you don't drink to a 26-year-old, they get it.

   21. CWChris Williamson19:20

       Mm-hmm.

   22. DMDominic McGregor19:20

       So when-

   23. CWChris Williamson19:20

       When you do it to 23-year-olds, they get it a bit less.

   24. DMDominic McGregor19:23

       They don't get it. Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson19:23

       Yeah. That's so, so interesting that there is a, a line, and y- it is, it is around that time as well.

   26. DMDominic McGregor19:30

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson19:30

       Um, certainly between the age of 23, I don't think that a, um, a exponential growth in your own self-understanding can occur really before 22, 23. I just, there seems to be-

   28. DMDominic McGregor19:44

       (clears throat)

   29. CWChris Williamson19:44

       ... a moment that i-

   30. DMDominic McGregor19:45

       Yeah.
7. 20:33 – 23:37

   Fear of missing out: weddings as the sobriety stress test and staying in control

   1. CWChris Williamson20:33

      Once, once we f- once we finish, uh, I'm gonna, uh, take you through a couple of things that we're working on at the moment. For now, some of the listeners may know that we've got some things going on behind the scenes. But I wrote, um, the equivalent of a manifesto, um, between Christmas and New Year, which is a sobriety manifesto.

   2. DMDominic McGregor20:49

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson20:49

      Uh, it was 3,800 words and I did the entire thing on my phone while I was watching Christmas films. Yeah, and like my thumbs were wrecked. Um-

   4. DMDominic McGregor20:57

      Like they're like, "Oh."

   5. CWChris Williamson20:59

      So just RSI for days. Um, wrote the whole thing on my phone and they were talking about so many of the things that we've brought up. The fact that if I don't drink, um, I'm gonna miss out on social engagements.

   6. DMDominic McGregor21:10

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson21:11

      Um, what would you... So I wa- want to hear what you would say if someone was like, "Oh, if I, if I don't drink, I'm worried that I'm gonna feel like an outcast around my friends when they're out on a night out, or maybe they'll stop inviting me to things."

   8. DMDominic McGregor21:23

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson21:23

      "Or maybe I just won't go."

   10. DMDominic McGregor21:25

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson21:25

       What, what would you say to that?

   12. DMDominic McGregor21:26

       I'd say take a situation, okay, take probably one of the most, um, the top pre- the top social occasions that we have, probably have in our, uh, our age, weddings. Okay? Weddings are renowned for, um, drunk- drunkenness from family, from people. Imagine, um, going to-

   13. CWChris Williamson21:44

       Even the dog's drunk at a wedding, right?

   14. DMDominic McGregor21:45

       Even the dog's drunk at a wedding. But-

   15. CWChris Williamson21:47

       (laughs)

   16. DMDominic McGregor21:47

       ... you know, take a situation where, um, you can drive to the wedding. Yeah? So you're not, you're not in a situation where, um, you're getting last minute, like ready last minute-

   17. CWChris Williamson21:59

       Mm-hmm.

   18. DMDominic McGregor22:00

       ... a taxi turns up.

   19. CWChris Williamson22:00

       Mm-hmm.

   20. DMDominic McGregor22:01

       Uh, your taxi's late or whatever. You're in-

   21. CWChris Williamson22:03

       You don't have to get that awful minibus back for-

   22. DMDominic McGregor22:05

       You don't have to get the awful mini-

   23. CWChris Williamson22:06

       ... uh, 45 minutes-

   24. DMDominic McGregor22:07

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson22:07

       ... from wherever in the sticks it's been.

   26. DMDominic McGregor22:09

       In 2:00 in the morning.

   27. CWChris Williamson22:09

       Yeah.

   28. DMDominic McGregor22:09

       You're in complete control the whole time. Okay? Uh, you get there, you turn up. It's very awkward because there's so many different people from different backgrounds. So everyone's in the same situation. Not many people know, know many people at the wedding. You probably know five or six people, you know, and you'll go and meet people throughout the night. So that's why weddings tend to have that kind of collective, you know, "Oh, we need to get-"

   29. CWChris Williamson22:29

       It's a bonding, it's a bonding process.

   30. DMDominic McGregor22:31

       Yeah.
8. 23:37 – 26:01

   Learning real confidence: alcohol as outsourced courage and rebuilding social skills

   1. CWChris Williamson23:37

      Uh, uh, y- you're totally right. You're totally, totally right about that. There's a, uh, a number of things that I wrote in the, in this particular manifesto that, that kind of trigger off the back of that. I've worked somewhere in the region of 1,000 club nights across my career and I can tell everybody that is listening that nothing worthwhile happens after 1:00 in the morning.

   2. DMDominic McGregor23:55

      No. Nothing.

   3. CWChris Williamson23:55

      Like, it is the, (laughs) the absolute worst of human behavior manifest, like fights and club kissing. Like, no one-

   4. DMDominic McGregor24:06

      It's-

   5. CWChris Williamson24:06

      ... really wants to be-

   6. DMDominic McGregor24:07

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson24:07

      ... a part of either of those things.

   8. DMDominic McGregor24:08

      No.

   9. CWChris Williamson24:08

      Even if you're enjoying the club kissing at the time, you cringe about it the next day. Um, then when it comes to the social engagements thing, I think what happens a lot is-If you're drinking, especially heavily, you'll be less picky about your social engagements-

   10. DMDominic McGregor24:24

       Yep.

   11. CWChris Williamson24:24

       ... because you know that if you've got shit or boring friends, or you've got to go to some party that you probably don't want to go to anyway, kinda doesn't really matter 'cause you can just sedate the boredom by getting lashed.

   12. DMDominic McGregor24:34

       Yep.

   13. CWChris Williamson24:35

       And you're like, "Okay, so hang on, what you're saying is I'm-"

   14. DMDominic McGregor24:37

       All the awkwardness as well.

   15. CWChris Williamson24:38

       ... and the, uh, yeah, and all of those sort of things. Downstream from the awkwardness, um, or, uh, what's referred to as approach anxiety, in pick-up artistry for both men and women. If the only way that you can go up and speak to someone at a wedding is once you've had a drink, you have never cultivated the capacity to actually go up and speak to somebody.

   16. DMDominic McGregor24:56

       Yeah. (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson24:56

       You've outsourced it to this exogenous version of courage-

   18. DMDominic McGregor25:00

       Mm-hmm. And, uh-

   19. CWChris Williamson25:00

       ... which is alcohol.

   20. DMDominic McGregor25:01

       And it is so, you are so mu- so many, so much better learning that skill than rely on alcohol-

   21. CWChris Williamson25:09

       Mm-hmm.

   22. DMDominic McGregor25:09

       ... because going sober, that's one thing you do learn, you learn to have the self-confidence in yourself and that you hold yourself in a high self-esteem to be able to approach someone and have a conversation with them. And, like, people are trying to buy that, you know, the whole quick-fix lifestyle.

   23. CWChris Williamson25:24

       Mm-hmm.

   24. DMDominic McGregor25:24

       Alcohol is a quick fix in that situation. Or, you could take a step back, invest in yourself, grow your confidence, and then be able to hold yourself in, in any social occasion.

   25. CWChris Williamson25:32

       But it goes back to what you said about your, uh, coping with stresses from work-

   26. DMDominic McGregor25:38

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson25:38

       ... where you're like, "I've had a hard day, I'm running this business that's essentially like me holding onto 100-mile-an-hour speed train, like, just with one arm on the final, like, the final thing at the very end, like, desperately trying to, like, I'm flapping around in the wind." And, um, your, one of your coping mechanisms was to use alcohol-

   28. DMDominic McGregor25:59

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson25:59

       But that means that you can't cope.

   30. DMDominic McGregor26:00

       Yep.

9. 26:01 – 29:00

   Early sobriety coping: swapping vices, CBT stimulus-response, and transforming habits

   1. CWChris Williamson26:01

      Like, as a byproduct of that, if you take the alcohol away ... So, here's a question that probably a lot of people are thinking, I don't think we got into it last time. What was coping with stressful situations like the first few times that you, um, that you weren't drinking? When you were no longer able to sedate yourself on that?

   2. DMDominic McGregor26:27

      You, you know, you have every, you know, the feeling still existed. The feeling still existed. So, I was still feeling bad and stressful and I had that emotions inside me, so I had to do something about it. So what I did was I turned to another, I turned to something else. So I'd, I'd focus my energy at first on food. So I'd have, like, a really morish meal-

   3. CWChris Williamson26:51

      Mm-hmm.

   4. DMDominic McGregor26:52

      ... just to, to forget about, like, to take yourself off the table.

   5. CWChris Williamson26:54

      So you've sh- switched the coping mechanism-

   6. DMDominic McGregor26:56

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson26:56

      ... from one to another?

   8. DMDominic McGregor26:58

      Yeah. Or, or I'd, or I'd, um, um, go to bed early to forget about it.

   9. CWChris Williamson27:06

      Mm-hmm.

   10. DMDominic McGregor27:06

       Anything which, anything which kind of gave me the sense-

   11. CWChris Williamson27:08

       That's, that's escapism there-

   12. DMDominic McGregor27:10

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson27:10

       ... almost, right? Okay.

   14. DMDominic McGregor27:11

       Anything to give me that sense of escaping.

   15. CWChris Williamson27:12

       Yeah.

   16. DMDominic McGregor27:13

       Alcohol does it in one way because you're blathered. Sleeping does it, uh, a another time because you just forget and you go away.

   17. CWChris Williamson27:19

       Yeah.

   18. DMDominic McGregor27:20

       And food does it because you kind of, you know, completely focused, fixated on the morish food, and then-

   19. CWChris Williamson27:25

       Mm-hmm.

   20. DMDominic McGregor27:26

       ... you kind of do feel a little bit bad afterwards because you just put crap inside you. But, you know, it's short-term and then-

   21. CWChris Williamson27:32

       Mm-hmm.

   22. DMDominic McGregor27:32

       ... and then you, you are tired and go to sleep. So, um, it was taking that feeling, that emotion, and processing it in a different way.

   23. CWChris Williamson27:40

       Mm-hmm. And then there must have been a point at which you transitioned from that to it not actually ... you're not needing to use any of those mechanisms and you actually being able to-

   24. DMDominic McGregor27:48

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson27:48

       ... sit with the emotion.

   26. DMDominic McGregor27:49

       So, so it's simple sim- sor- simple cognitive behavior therapy. So take the, the action/reaction, um, stimulus response. The stimulus was stress, the response was food. Okay? So now you get stimulus response, the food was bad at first. It was, you know, it was pizzas and burgers.

   27. CWChris Williamson28:05

       Mm-hmm.

   28. DMDominic McGregor28:06

       And you-

   29. CWChris Williamson28:06

       'Cause to, to interject there for people who are looking at you now that wouldn't know that you were fat, like-

   30. DMDominic McGregor28:10

       No, real fat.
10. 29:00 – 31:50

    Chris’s 18-month sobriety plan: summer triggers, replacements, and testing boundaries

    1. DMDominic McGregor29:00

       (laughs)

    2. CWChris Williamson29:00

       "... and I was like, 'Fucking sweet.'" But yeah, man, like, uh, you know, it, I, I genuinely believe ... And we come at this from two different angles and, um, I'm now six months into 18, so-

    3. DMDominic McGregor29:14

       Why 18?

    4. CWChris Williamson29:15

       Because I'd completed six without any challenge.

    5. DMDominic McGregor29:18

       Mm-hmm.

    6. CWChris Williamson29:19

       I'd done six through wintertime. All of my s- all of my stints of sobriety have almost been the same period, which has been just after Halloween-

    7. DMDominic McGregor29:28

       Yep.

    8. CWChris Williamson29:28

       ... until around about May time.

    9. DMDominic McGregor29:30

       Yeah.

    10. CWChris Williamson29:31

        And I know that the most challenging period for me is going to be through summer. I don't know whether you still get this, but for me, in a beer garden, British summer, 6:00 PM, sun's low, good music on, and I just think, "Fucking Kopparberg." Like-

    11. DMDominic McGregor29:48

        (laughs)

    12. CWChris Williamson29:48

        It would be-

    13. DMDominic McGregor29:49

        Wow.

    14. CWChris Williamson29:49

        It's ju- there's nothing quite ... Now, Kopparberg do a Kopparberg Blue-

    15. DMDominic McGregor29:52

        Yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson29:52

        ... which is, which is kinda cool. They've only recently brought that out. But there's just something about that where I was like, that's ... I don't get itches to drink.

    17. DMDominic McGregor30:00

        I do now. Yeah.

    18. CWChris Williamson30:00

        I'm not a big drinker naturally. But that one time ... And I was like, "Right, I want to see ..." First off, I completed six months. I was like, "12 seems like a figure, but 18 seems like a motherfucker."

    19. DMDominic McGregor30:12

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson30:12

        "So I'm gonna do 18." And by doing it, I knew that I'd go through two winters that would be a little bit less difficult, but one summer which would be pretty tough.

    21. DMDominic McGregor30:21

        The, the, the, the re- I feel like there is a replacement for everything, and like for Kopparberg's, kombucha.

    22. CWChris Williamson30:27

        (laughs)

    23. DMDominic McGregor30:28

        Like, honestly.

    24. CWChris Williamson30:29

        Come on, you can't go into a British pub, like, as the s- the black bull or something in-

    25. DMDominic McGregor30:35

        (laughs)

    26. CWChris Williamson30:35

        ... in, in Over the Hedge and be like, "Uh, excuse me. Uh, I see that you've got Kopparberg on the menu. I wondered if you have any, uh, kombucha because, uh, m- my microbiome in my gut is saying to me... By the way, have you heard that Lord of the Rings are coming out on Warhammer?" Like... (laughs)

    27. DMDominic McGregor30:53

        You're just so weird.

    28. CWChris Williamson30:54

        I know. I've completely rumbled you.

    29. DMDominic McGregor30:56

        So weird, being... (laughs)

    30. CWChris Williamson30:59

        (laughs)
11. 31:50 – 35:09

    From sobriety to social marketing: the irreversible ‘publish’ button and platform differences

    1. CWChris Williamson31:50

       So I wanna move on to some stuff to do with social media. I was talking to, uh, Theo on the way up and we were laughing about the fact, um, I don't know whether you saw recently, but the UFC, it was maybe about three or four months ago now, they put out a tweet and it was a big announcement, it might have been the 100th anniversary of something or whatever. They put out this huge tweet that obviously spent a fair bit of time building up to it. Big fuck off typo right in the middle of it with a spelling error. And there's, there's no speed at which you can get onto the internet to delete that tweet.

    2. DMDominic McGregor32:23

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson32:23

       Like, quickly enough. And it just started getting retweeted and like 5K, 10K retweets. A big old fat tweet. I wanted to know about you guys have got, was it 600 million reach or something like that?

    4. DMDominic McGregor32:36

       Yeah. Yeah. In the million. Hundreds of millions.

    5. CWChris Williamson32:38

       Hundreds of millions of reach online?

    6. DMDominic McGregor32:40

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson32:40

       That means, like, and as much as you can have the things are prepped in advance and there's a, a brand design and an architecture and there's briefings and this, that, and the other, at the end of the day, there's a person with a button who has to press it. Do you know what I mean?

    8. DMDominic McGregor32:56

       Yeah, yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson32:56

       Like all of this funnels down to one person's finger.

    10. DMDominic McGregor33:01

        Yep.

    11. CWChris Williamson33:01

        And then they have to just, "Uh." Like, pr- they press it once and once it's gone, that's it. Like, it's out into the world. And I, I just wanted to ask what it feels like to have that kind of titanic responsibility, not only for yourself, but the brands that are behind you.

    12. DMDominic McGregor33:20

        Oh God, what's it feel like? Um...

    13. CWChris Williamson33:24

        Do you get nervous before, like, a big campaign goes out? Or is that kinda stopped now for you?

    14. DMDominic McGregor33:30

        Um...

    15. CWChris Williamson33:31

        If that man presses a button and there's a typo in it, like, "Dom, yeah, mate, I'm, I'm really s- Yeah, no."

    16. DMDominic McGregor33:38

        It's frustrating. It's fr- it's frus- Twitter's the only platform where you can't edit it.

    17. CWChris Williamson33:42

        Yes.

    18. DMDominic McGregor33:42

        So like, Facebook, Instagram, you've got control when you edit. And like, we aren't as dependent on Twitter anymore.

    19. CWChris Williamson33:49

        Right.

    20. DMDominic McGregor33:49

        So we don't do much on Twitter.

    21. CWChris Williamson33:50

        Okay.

    22. DMDominic McGregor33:51

        So like, uh, like historically-

    23. CWChris Williamson33:54

        Mm-hmm.

    24. DMDominic McGregor33:54

        ... it was a nightmare. Like, it was like, "Oh, for f-"

    25. CWChris Williamson33:56

        (laughs)

    26. DMDominic McGregor33:58

        We'd be like, "Oh, God, no."

    27. CWChris Williamson34:01

        Yeah. Yeah.

    28. DMDominic McGregor34:02

        (laughs) But like now, it's like Twit- like y- the products are there, like, to, to edit.

    29. CWChris Williamson34:08

        Mm-hmm.

    30. DMDominic McGregor34:08

        So you get, like, that happens, it's annoying, but you get around it.
12. 35:09 – 38:56

    The attention economy’s next phase: valuing time, TikTok’s ‘fun’ reset, and offline resurgence

    1. CWChris Williamson35:09

       Moving forward, what do you think is gonna happen with social media as, as we go on? I don't know whether you listened to the podcast that I did with Rory Sutherland, which was about the psychology of advertising.

    2. DMDominic McGregor35:20

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson35:21

       Um, and I asked him the same question. Over the next five years, do you think that people are going to continue to give away their data for free, and their attention for free? What do you think is the future of the social media and the attention economy as we move forward now?

    4. DMDominic McGregor35:37

       It's e- exactly that. So you, you, you, you are competing on att- attention. Okay? And what will cause the s- the biggest shift is if consumers realize the value of their attention and their value of their time. Um, and they start choosing to spend that time wisely. I think if you look at the suite of products that exist at the moment, uh, in that world you have entertainment, which is predominantly TV, um, you have gaming, which is always growing. You have, um, friends and real life interactions you put in there as well. And then you have social media. You know, they're probably the four... Um, you could probably put sport in there as well as probably as a separate-

    5. CWChris Williamson36:22

       Mm-hmm.

    6. DMDominic McGregor36:23

       ... thread. And they're probably th- the five p- places where people spend their time.

    7. CWChris Williamson36:26

       Mm-hmm.

    8. DMDominic McGregor36:27

       It, and then it just, the question is where do people want to spend their time? When you look at some things like entertainment, is there, is there a negative connotations to s- sitting there and watching Netflix series?

    9. CWChris Williamson36:38

       Mm-hmm.

    10. DMDominic McGregor36:38

        Probably not. You could probably do that and you could probably feel good about yourself. Um, sp- uh, gaming, probably again an, uh, probably more evils in th- ga- gaming.

    11. CWChris Williamson36:48

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DMDominic McGregor36:48

        But also some positives coming out of it as well with kind of the, the skills that people are learning, uh, as people are putting more and more time into gaming. Social media has a lot of negative connotations. Are they gonna be opting to choose to spend their time on social media with the backlash that is, backlashes that are coming out now? Um, they will probably be on social media but when you take the emergence of a platform like TikTok, I asked someone, "Why, what do you like about TikTok?" And she, she said, hand on heart, she said, "It's the only platform where no one is being arrogant, talking about themselves, bragging, and it's just fun." And-

    13. CWChris Williamson37:23

        What's, what's TikTok?

    14. DMDominic McGregor37:24

        Oh, don't know what's TikTok.

    15. CWChris Williamson37:25

        Yeah.

    16. DMDominic McGregor37:25

        TikTok is, um, like, it's like an endless scroll video, it's like Vine s- essentially but for full screen.

    17. CWChris Williamson37:31

        Okay.

    18. DMDominic McGregor37:31

        Uh, really big. 750 million followers, really big in China and the UK. It's really growing really quickly.

    19. CWChris Williamson37:35

        Okay. Is it the thing where people do memes to, like, singing?

    20. DMDominic McGregor37:39

        Yeah. Th- that's what it was at first but it's evolved now.

    21. CWChris Williamson37:41

        Okay.

    22. DMDominic McGregor37:41

        And it's, it's got no messaging, it's got no, um-

    23. CWChris Williamson37:45

        And like pure IGTV.

    24. DMDominic McGregor37:47

        Yeah, yeah. And people are just being nice on it.

    25. CWChris Williamson37:49

        Okay.

    26. DMDominic McGregor37:50

        So like people are like, it's entertaining.

    27. CWChris Williamson37:51

        Mm-hmm.

    28. DMDominic McGregor37:51

        It's, again, it's, it's fun. So it hasn't got the em- uh, people updating their statuses, it hasn't got any of what-

    29. CWChris Williamson37:57

        Competitive aspects and stuff.

    30. DMDominic McGregor37:57

        Yeah. So, people are l- m- I feel people now are looking to spend their time in more positive ways because we're all starting to wake up to the point that our attention is valuable.
13. 38:56 – 41:29

    Future-proofing Social Chain: diversify beyond platforms and build around social insight

    1. CWChris Williamson38:56

       What do you think that means for yourself obviously having to trigger on these industries?

    2. DMDominic McGregor39:02

       Mm-hmm. It, it, it means that as a, as a business or personally?

    3. CWChris Williamson39:06

       As a business.

    4. DMDominic McGregor39:07

       As a, as a business, you know, we, we are competing in the economy, uh, of a, attention economy. So we have to play where people are playing. So in the gaming space, that's a growing market.

    5. CWChris Williamson39:17

       Mm-hmm.

    6. DMDominic McGregor39:17

       What can we do there?

    7. CWChris Williamson39:17

       Mm-hmm.

    8. DMDominic McGregor39:18

       Can we grow, uh, uh, gaming publishers? Can we, uh, work on in a- in gaming products and marketing? Um, entertainment, sh- uh, uh, brands want to move into the branded entertainment space. Can we produce content which goes straight to Amazon and Netflix where people can have pieces of attention? So for us, you know, we, we are a social first business but it doesn't mean we don't operate in other areas.

    9. CWChris Williamson39:39

       Mm-hmm.

    10. DMDominic McGregor39:40

        What we do is we take the insights and knowledge from p- social, which can mean social media but social interactions, um, and social relationships, and then that, we build a marketing company off the back of that. So that, the social insights could tell us that we need to do a out, out of home campaign.

    11. CWChris Williamson39:53

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DMDominic McGregor39:54

        So it is, uh, it is, um, we're, we're, we're not dependent on any platform, we're not dependent on any product.

    13. CWChris Williamson40:00

        Mm-hmm.

    14. DMDominic McGregor40:01

        Um, but what we are dependent on is the data that we collect from social media because that's-

    15. CWChris Williamson40:07

        Which will inform things moving forward. Do we do an experiential campaign? Do we do a whatever-

    16. DMDominic McGregor40:12

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson40:12

        ... campaign?

    18. DMDominic McGregor40:12

        Yep, yep. So the, the, the business model is, is solid, it's very diverse.

    19. CWChris Williamson40:18

        Mm-hmm.

    20. DMDominic McGregor40:18

        Um, it's, it's in a good position and, and it's not dependent on if Instagram switched off tomorrow, would we still be here?

    21. CWChris Williamson40:26

        Yeah.

    22. DMDominic McGregor40:27

        If Facebook turned off tomorrow, would we still be here?

    23. CWChris Williamson40:28

        Mm-hmm.

    24. DMDominic McGregor40:29

        It's, it's-

    25. CWChris Williamson40:29

        Might make, might make the next couple of weeks a bit difficult.

    26. DMDominic McGregor40:32

        Uh-

    27. CWChris Williamson40:33

        You'd be like, "Oh, bollocks."

    28. DMDominic McGregor40:34

        Probably worse for client, probably worse for clients than us.

    29. CWChris Williamson40:36

        Yes.

    30. DMDominic McGregor40:37

        Yeah, we t-
14. 41:29 – 47:07

    Authenticity and personalization: KFC fries, Qantas kindness, and the risk of manufactured moments

    1. DMDominic McGregor41:29

       I, I'd say also as well probably take social media out your name because it, it, social media it, I think it puts people in a box.

    2. CWChris Williamson41:36

       Mm-hmm.

    3. DMDominic McGregor41:36

       You know, the, the, what we're talking to clients now about r- serious business problems and how they can use social to solve them. Not just social media soc- like a wider, wide, wider breadth of social, uh, to solve their business problems, you know, not just looking at... When I think social media manager, I think schedule tweets when a person presses the button.

    4. CWChris Williamson41:55

       Yeah.

    5. DMDominic McGregor41:55

       When I think social insights and social strategy, I think how can we use the information from social media to determine where this brand's gonna go?

    6. CWChris Williamson42:02

       Mm-hmm.

    7. DMDominic McGregor42:03

       Exam- example, um, take KFC. KFC have probably been the best when it comes to social media, um, in the fast food space.

    8. CWChris Williamson42:12

       Mm-hmm.

    9. DMDominic McGregor42:13

       They, their entire campaign to launch, um, f- new fries was driven through social. So they were doing social listening and seeing what people were saying about their fries, and there was tons and tons of tweets of people saying that KFC have the worst fries.

    10. CWChris Williamson42:26

        They do, or they did.

    11. DMDominic McGregor42:27

        They did. So obviously that social insight there and that conversation with people has informed natural business change.

    12. CWChris Williamson42:33

        Mm-hmm.

    13. DMDominic McGregor42:33

        They've gone, "Okay, our fries are crap, this is what people are saying about them."30 years ago, if you sold a bad, bad, bad set of fries to someone, no one would ever tell you.

    14. CWChris Williamson42:40

        There's no feedback mechanism.

    15. DMDominic McGregor42:41

        No feedback mechanism. So people have actually been looking at social media, what people say about KFC-

    16. CWChris Williamson42:45

        Mm-hmm.

    17. DMDominic McGregor42:46

        ... they s- identified a problem and then turned it into a marketing campaign.

    18. CWChris Williamson42:49

        Do you h- h- or how do you categorize that then? You're totally right. Is that, is that using social? Probably not. Would a social media agency class itself as that? Also, again, probably not, because it's not to do with... You're right, I think social media, I think about the guy that schedules-

    19. DMDominic McGregor43:07

        Mm-hmm.

    20. CWChris Williamson43:07

        ... the, the Facebook posts.

    21. DMDominic McGregor43:08

        Mm-hmm.

    22. CWChris Williamson43:08

        I think the person that's sat behind Ads Manager.

    23. DMDominic McGregor43:10

        Yep.

    24. CWChris Williamson43:11

        I don't think about the person who is using the inherent discourse and direct line of communication between yourself and the customer, to inform more typical business activities.

    25. DMDominic McGregor43:23

        Yep. Yep. And that's what I think bus- big businesses are now starting to realize, is that social media is no longer just a l- uh, a team of two people who run the pages.

    26. CWChris Williamson43:31

        Mm-hmm.

    27. DMDominic McGregor43:31

        That's where your insights are coming from, that's where you can u- actually understand your c- customer, your product, your future.

    28. CWChris Williamson43:37

        Also bidirectional as well.

    29. DMDominic McGregor43:39

        Exactly. Exactly. So there's so many instances now where brands are going straight to people on social media. Take Qantas yesterday, um, Quant- two days ago, a 10-year-old boy wrote, wrote a letter to the CEO saying that he's just started an airline, um, handwritten, he's asking for advice from the CEO of Qantas.

    30. CWChris Williamson43:56

        (laughs)
15. 47:07 – 1:00:43

    Retail as experience (and digital as convenience): Toys“R”Us, IKEA, Harry Potter Land, and social equity

    1. CWChris Williamson47:07

       True. Do you think that, um, at a younger age bracket, like the five or the, I guess, the four to kind of 11 age, do you think that it's gonna be difficult to replicate that magic of walking around somewhere like Toys"R"Us or a large toy store? There must be something inherent that triggers on kids.

    2. DMDominic McGregor47:28

       Oh, okay. So this, this is what, this is, this is my, one of my biggest eye... Oh God. Toys"R"Us missed the opportunity to be the home of toys.

    3. CWChris Williamson47:38

       Okay.

    4. DMDominic McGregor47:38

       They should have pivoted.

    5. CWChris Williamson47:39

       They could have gone, they stayed as Blockbuster but could have been Netflix?

    6. DMDominic McGregor47:42

       Yeah. They could have turned it into an experience.

    7. CWChris Williamson47:44

       Yeah.

    8. DMDominic McGregor47:44

       You go there, you play with the toys, you have games, you have PlayStations, everything. Ha-

    9. CWChris Williamson47:48

       Like IKEA.

    10. DMDominic McGregor47:49

        Like IKEA. If they did that, they'd still be here.

    11. CWChris Williamson47:53

        IKEA is basically Toys"R"Us for married couples, isn't it? (laughs)

    12. DMDominic McGregor47:56

        Yeah. Take, take, yeah, take, you know, you could, you, you know, to- if to- if I, you know, you see it now in, uh, M&S, M&S are putting cafes and stuff into all their shops because they know their demographic wants to come and have a coffee.

    13. CWChris Williamson48:06

        Mm-hmm.

    14. DMDominic McGregor48:07

        All right? And then-

    15. CWChris Williamson48:07

        Man, I go into, there's an M&S right next to me, and it is, uh, 2:00 PM Wednesday afternoon-

    16. DMDominic McGregor48:12

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson48:12

        ... rammed.

    18. DMDominic McGregor48:13

        Good food.

    19. CWChris Williamson48:13

        Absolutely rammed.

    20. DMDominic McGregor48:15

        You know what you're getting.

    21. CWChris Williamson48:15

        Everyone's having salmon.

    22. DMDominic McGregor48:16

        Yeah. You know what you're getting, you're getting good food, you're gonna have a couple of hours there, you're gonna pick up a-

    23. CWChris Williamson48:20

        Read a book.

    24. DMDominic McGregor48:21

        ... read a book, you know.

    25. CWChris Williamson48:22

        Yeah.

    26. DMDominic McGregor48:22

        But they've catered to their audience. Toys"R"Us should have pivoted and created an experience within their sh- store.

    27. CWChris Williamson48:28

        Mm-hmm.

    28. DMDominic McGregor48:28

        Those, those that will remain will facilitate experiences, will make it a place, like, l- take the bar scene, for example, the bar scene's always ahead because there, there's so many micro-trends. You know, you take Dirty Martini.

    29. CWChris Williamson48:40

        Mm-hmm.

    30. DMDominic McGregor48:40

        How many girls and people do you see with a picture over them on their Instagram saying, "Get your halo dirty"?
16. 1:00:43 – 1:07:50

    Closing sobriety philosophy: gradual decline, ‘no safe level,’ and choosing to be uncommon

    1. CWChris Williamson1:00:43

       Mm-hmm. I spoke, uh, to Mike Kaju about this and I said that, um, one of the things that I think about people who hit rock bottom or some degree close to rock bottom, i.e. they have a sufficiently traumatic experience that springboards them back out of it-

    2. DMDominic McGregor1:00:58

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:00:58

       ... is that you are given a-... a degree of motivation due to the pain that you've gone through that does enable you to move forward. What I think is particularly malicious and nefarious and subversive is for people who are maybe a, a bottle of wine every couple of nights-

    4. DMDominic McGregor1:01:18

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:01:18

       ... during the week, and maybe a bottle one night on a weekend kind of person, because that is the silent killer-

    6. DMDominic McGregor1:01:26

       Yep.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:01:26

       ... that people don't really see.

    8. DMDominic McGregor1:01:27

       Yep.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:01:27

       It's, there's no sufficiently traumatic situation they've gone through. They're waking up with a fuzzy head maybe. There's some downstream longevity problems.

    10. DMDominic McGregor1:01:36

        And it's ex- it's ju- it's a gradual decline. It's-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:01:38

        It's death by a thousand cuts.

    12. DMDominic McGregor1:01:39

        Day by day, you never realize anything. Year by year, you never notice anything, but slowly you are slipping.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:01:44

        Decade by decade, you do.

    14. DMDominic McGregor1:01:45

        Decade by decade, you do. Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:01:46

        So there was a study done by, uh, The Lancet, which I will link in the show notes below, uh, which was done over a million people, 26 countries, and, um, it looked at the negative consequences of alcohol consumption on health, and they found that alcohol is an overall mortality risk. And the synopsis to the whole study is there is no safe level of alcohol consumption. Zero. There is no, "I'm getting, uh, particular downstream benefits from having red wine because of something that comes through from the grapes."

    16. DMDominic McGregor1:02:24

        Mm-hmm.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:02:24

        There is, you're netting a negative. There is no, "I can have one beer a week because wheat does whatever, whatever." Netting a negative. There is no safe level of alcohol consumption. And to reframe the conversation people are having about alcohol is, cool, like if you want to go out and drink, that is fine, but you have to concede that that drink is either, at the best, keeping your life the same length or making it shorter. You know, like every night out and every drink that you have is bringing you closer to death. And that's a fact.

    18. DMDominic McGregor1:02:55

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:02:56

        That is a fact. It is not going to extend your life. It may keep it the same or bring it shorter. And you're like, "When that's the cost that I have to pay, am I prepared to pay it?"

    20. DMDominic McGregor1:03:11

        Are you gonna drink again?

    21. CWChris Williamson1:03:13

        Yeah, so I will do.

    22. DMDominic McGregor1:03:14

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:03:14

        I will do. Um, I, I, I genuinely believe that anything taken to an extreme, anything done in excess, it can be an error for some people. Good example was last year, I pushed my solitude to excess. I created my version of, uh, Carl Jung's Bollingen Tower, which was a deep work space for me to really, really sort of dig my heels into breaking some habits that I wanted. I've developed a reading habit which I'm super proud of. I'd, I've developed, like, my mindfulness has gone through the roof, which is fantastic. I had to pay a price for that, and the price was moving beyond solitude towards something that, uh, that touched on loneliness.

    24. DMDominic McGregor1:03:55

        Mm-hmm.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:03:56

        And that was a price I had to pay.

    26. DMDominic McGregor1:03:57

        Mm-hmm.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:03:58

        Most people say, "Oh, you know, I would be, I spend some time on my own doing deep work like Cal Newport's loving life at the moment, sat in an office on his own, soundproofed." Like this probably. Um, but I had to pay a price for that, and there is... When it comes to not drinking, there are certain experiences that I want to have, and one of those includes drinking. However, I can genuinely see each time that I've gone sober and gone back to drinking, the window of drinking has got shorter. So first I did six months sobriety, then six months of drinking. Then the second time I did it, I did six months of sobriety and three months of drinking, but within that time, I only went out four times.

    28. DMDominic McGregor1:04:43

        Mm-hmm.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:04:43

        So that was four nights out. And now this time, I can see I'll do it, I'll probably touch base with it again.

    30. DMDominic McGregor1:04:49

        Yep.

Episode duration: 1:07:51