Modern WisdomThe Ethics Of Using Drugs To Fall In & Out Of Love - Brian D. Earp | Modern Wisdom Podcast 268
CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 1:00
A future of psychedelic-assisted couples therapy (and the authenticity question)
Brian opens by imagining near-future clinics offering psychedelic- or MDMA-enhanced couples therapy designed to break entrenched relationship patterns. He argues that temporarily shifting perception can help partners “see each other with new eyes” without making the resulting reconnection inherently inauthentic.
- •Psychedelic/MDMA sessions framed as structured therapy, not recreational use
- •Shared values and goals set before dosing; effects are temporary
- •Reports from trials: partners feel like they’re seeing each other as when they first met
- •Reframing “authenticity”: habits can be inauthentic too, not just drug effects
- 1:00 – 3:19
What love is: a bio-psycho-social phenomenon with stages
Chris asks “What is love?” and Brian builds an integrative view spanning subjective experience, cultural scripts, brain chemistry, and social context. He also discusses common phase models—lust, attraction, and attachment—each linked to different biological systems.
- •Love involves subjective feelings plus cultural narratives used to ‘compare notes’
- •Biological scaffolding matters, especially in a sexually reproducing species
- •Phase model: lust/libido → attraction → long-term attachment/pair bonding
- •Love sits at the interface of biology, psychology, and social history
- 3:19 – 5:36
Reductionism vs lived experience: meaning, values, and “bad love”
They explore why love feels like more than chemicals, and how meaning and values get woven into romantic experience. Brian notes that some experiences people label ‘love’ may be obsessive or harmful, and societies can legitimately debate what counts as love.
- •Phenomenology of love can feel ‘blessed’ or externally bestowed
- •Value judgments distinguish flourishing love from obsession/toxicity
- •Love can be self-justifying even when the relationship is harmful
- •Societies have ‘wiggle room’ in what they culturally label as love
- 5:36 – 7:19
Why we love who we love: proximity, compatibility, and unknown triggers
Chris asks what determines who we love; Brian emphasizes proximity and compatibility as strong predictors, while dismissing clichés like “absence makes the heart grow fonder.” Beyond broad factors, the specific spark remains scientifically elusive.
- •Proximity is a major prerequisite for enduring love
- •Extreme value mismatch rarely sustains long-term relationships
- •Clichés like ‘opposites attract’ often fail as general explanations
- •No clear necessary/sufficient conditions for why one person becomes ‘the’ person
- 7:19 – 11:56
Where drugs fit in: mapping lust, attraction, and attachment onto neurochemistry
Brian outlines how drugs can interact with components of love: libido (testosterone), early-stage obsessive attraction (serotonin/OCD overlap), and attachment (oxytocin/vasopressin). He then pivots to psychedelics/MDMA as “global” state-shifters that may enhance therapy rather than directly create love.
- •Libido can be altered (e.g., androgen blockers; testosterone effects are complex)
- •Early romantic obsession may overlap with OCD-like mechanisms; SSRIs implicated
- •Attachment linked to oxytocin/vasopressin; intranasal oxytocin evidence mixed
- •MDMA/psychedelics may reduce defensiveness and increase openness in counseling
- 11:56 – 13:45
Why psychedelic trials don’t fit the usual placebo model
They discuss the methodological challenge of studying psychedelics: participants can tell when they’ve taken the drug. Brian argues the subjective experience is not “noise” but often part of the mechanism of change, especially when integrated socially and therapeutically.
- •Classic trial logic tries to isolate drug effect via placebo blinding
- •Psychedelics/MDMA produce unmistakable subjective changes, undermining blinding
- •The meaning made from the experience is central to outcomes
- •Therapeutic effect depends on integration into life and relationships
- 13:45 – 22:44
Anti-love drugs: when weakening attachment might be justified
Chris introduces ‘anti-love’ interventions; Brian starts with a hard case: abusive relationships where attachment can intensify despite harm. He then discusses voluntary use to align first-order feelings with higher-order goals, plus controversial cases like libido suppression for those attracted to children.
- •Limit case: someone wants to leave abuse but feels emotionally unable
- •Emphasis on voluntariness; avoids coercion and victim-blaming
- •Potential role for SSRIs in dampening obsessive/possessive feelings after other supports
- •Androgen-blocking treatments for dangerous attractions: real use, messy side effects
- 22:44 – 25:01
Pro-love drugs depend on context: SSRIs as relationship help or harm
Brian argues that “pro-love” vs “anti-love” is often context-dependent: the same drug can either support a relationship (by treating depression) or undermine it (through libido suppression or emotional blunting). The key variable is the interaction of drug effects with a couple’s values and situation.
- •Treating severe depression can restore relational engagement and stability
- •SSRIs can also dull passion, libido, and emotional range for some people
- •Outcomes are ‘drug × situation × values,’ not a simple pharmacological label
- •Call to study interpersonal/relationship effects of common psychiatric drugs
- 25:01 – 25:59
Is Viagra a love drug? Indirect pathways through sex, bonding, and oxytocin
They examine whether erectile-dysfunction drugs count as “love drugs.” Brian suggests they can indirectly support intimacy and attachment if sexual connection is important to the couple, partly via increased sexual satisfaction and associated bonding mechanisms.
- •Viagra acts peripherally (blood flow) rather than directly on attachment circuits
- •Enhanced sexual functioning can improve relational closeness for some couples
- •Sex/orgasm can increase oxytocin, supporting bonding
- •‘Love drug’ status depends on how couples value sex in their relationship
- 25:59 – 31:53
Could drugs change sexual orientation? Conversion therapy, autonomy, and coercion risks
Chris asks about orientation change; Brian recounts historical attempts to ‘convert’ gay people and modern cases where SSRIs are used to dampen libido in highly religious contexts. They explore the tension between respecting adult choice and recognizing non-ideal social pressures that could make such tech harmful.
- •Coercive/pressured ‘conversion’ efforts are ethically fraught and often ineffective
- •Some settings use high-dose SSRIs to reduce libido rather than create opposite-sex desire
- •Progressive values conflict: autonomy vs concern about internalized stigma and coercion
- •Non-ideal world concern: technology may amplify asymmetric pressure on minorities
- 31:53 – 45:23
How far should enhancement go? Bioconservatives vs bioliberals, nature, and unintended effects
They widen to human enhancement: tinkering with evolved systems is risky because we don’t fully understand them, yet refusing intervention ignores real suffering and potential benefits. Brian situates the debate between bioconservative caution and bioliberal/transhumanist optimism, noting both can be dogmatic.
- •Complex evolved systems are hard to ‘reverse engineer’; off-target effects are common
- •Psychiatry already accepts imperfect interventions when benefits outweigh harms
- •Debate framing: bioconservatives vs bioliberals/transhumanists
- •Natural ≠ good, but ‘natural systems’ embody hard-won stability; interventions can backfire
- 45:23 – 52:28
Do drugs erase growth? Coping vs confronting emotions (SSRIs, MDMA for PTSD, and alcohol as analogy)
Chris worries about “nerfing” heartbreak and losing lessons; Brian distinguishes between drugs that paper over meaningful signals and drugs that help people access emotions safely. He uses SSRIs and MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD to show cases where medication can enable processing rather than avoidance.
- •Some depression is informative about a bad situation; numbing may delay necessary change
- •Other depression is disproportionate and disabling; medication may restore ‘true self’ functioning
- •MDMA for PTSD can reduce fear response enough to process trauma effectively
- •Many substances (including alcohol) can either suppress feelings or lower defenses for honesty
- 52:28 – 1:04:49
Authenticity, the ‘true self,’ and relationship-enhancement criticisms
They tackle the core objection: drug-shaped feelings might be inauthentic. Brian introduces philosophical accounts of authenticity (e.g., willing vs unwilling addict) and shows how political/ideological values influence what we treat as someone’s ‘real self,’ especially in religion/sexuality conflicts.
- •Authenticity as reflectively endorsed desire vs alien, unendorsed compulsions
- •Identity disputes reveal value judgments about what counts as the ‘true self’
- •Liberals vs conservatives interpret the same internal conflict differently (faith vs attraction)
- •Self-knowledge is limited; ‘experiments in living’ help people discover stable integration
- 1:04:49 – 1:12:11
Personal stance and a cautious path: last-resort, guided psychedelic couples therapy
Chris asks Brian’s personal position; Brian describes his conservative religious upbringing and current cautious openness. He outlines a ‘conservative’ framework: try non-drug methods first, then consider carefully structured, therapist-guided psychedelic work as one tool among many for breaking ruts and rebuilding habits.
- •Brian is not an ‘enthusiast’ for enhancement; emphasizes caution and groundwork
- •Non-drug tools (therapy, lifestyle, contemplative practices) come first
- •If shared values and commitment remain, guided psychedelic sessions could be a last resort
- •Reframing: altered states can restore fresh perception and help choose new habits
- 1:12:11 – 1:15:03
Ancient roots of altered states and closing recommendations
They connect modern psychedelic therapy to older spiritual and cultural traditions that used psychoactive substances to dissolve ego and reset perception. The episode closes with Chris plugging Brian’s book and Brian sharing where to find his academic work online.
- •Psychoactive substances have long been used in spiritual traditions (ayahuasca, peyote, etc.)
- •Seen as tools alongside meditation/exercise for ‘clearing clutter’ and rebuilding perception
- •Modern framing: integrate the experience rather than treat it as a mere chemical trick
- •Book mention and contact points (academia.edu, Twitter, ResearchGate)
