The Rise And Fall Of The Girlboss Meme - Katherine Dee

1. 0:00 – 2:06

   Intro

   1. KDKatherine Dee0:00

      She fails at dating, but who cares? She's doing great at her career. She doesn't need a man, but she's gonna sleep around like a man anyway. She's, like, not afraid to admit she, like, farts. You know, you know, this is like a very specific sort of girl that was, like, really sort of popular in the 2010s. They had a manic episode and spent $18,000, but who cares because, you know, they're a product manager at Facebook. (laughs)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:24

      Do you think that you're a pickup artist?

   3. KDKatherine Dee0:27

      (laughs) No. (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson0:28

      You recently released a podcast where you considered that you might have been a pickup artist all along. And definitely some of the insights that I've seen you write are unusually incisive, I think, about the dating world. Where have they come from? Why have you taken such an interest in attraction and mating?

   5. KDKatherine Dee0:45

      Um, well, so I have sort of a weird romantic history. I, uh, I got married very young and then I got divorced, and so my first real time on the dating market, I was already in my late 20s. Um, and, like, I've, it was like a crash course. And I be- it was the first, um, I don't know if relationship's even the right word, but my first sort of foray into dating was so humiliating, I became, like, autistically sort of obsessed with preventing that pain. (laughs) Um, and I was like, "I, I can't ever feel like this again." Um, because I really felt like I was, like, 14, um, but I was 27, and it was just, it was, like, the worst.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:26

      Does that-

   7. KDKatherine Dee1:27

      And I think that's what motivates me.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:29

      Yeah, does that suggest that there's a, some time and attention that everyone needs to spend kind of breaking up, and making up, and learning those lessons, and that it doesn't come really as a byproduct of maturity or age, it comes as a byproduct of the amount of times that you've done it?

   9. KDKatherine Dee1:46

      Um, I mean, I think you just have to have the, you know, requisite emotional intelligence. I don't think that (laughs) um, practicing on people al- like, that's also not, I wouldn't recommend that either, um, because, you know, you become jaded, right? And that's (laughs) that's the, that's the flip side. There's such a thing as too much experience.

   10. CWChris Williamson2:05

       That's definitely

2. 2:06 – 6:43

   Katherine’s Prediction of Sex Negativity

   1. CWChris Williamson2:06

      true. Two years ago, you predicted a coming wave of sex negativity. I think that you were absolutely on the money with that, although it's maybe moving a little bit more slowly than you might have thought. But I think that you're absolutely spot on. Why did you think that that was going to happen?

   2. KDKatherine Dee2:24

      I started noticing, um... So the way I do my predictions is I look at where journalists are paying attention, um, because I really do, I still believe in legacy media and institutions. I feel like they guide the conversation. And a lot of my predictions are about media conversations as opposed to, like, on the ground behaviors. Um, and so one of the places that journalists scrape stories from, um, at least when I wrote that, I don't know how true that is now, is Twitter, right? And it was very trendy to be, um, sex skeptical. Um, sex negative might have been the wrong term, um, but I was, I mean, it's a very slipshod blog post. I was like Cassandra having visions when I wrote it. (laughs) Um, it, it was, a lot of young people are very sex skeptical. Um, and you know, it was also, we've kind of run out of gas on sex positivity, so you want to generate clicks. So it's like, how is the media conversation going to move and where is the zeitgeist gonna move? Um, so it kind of just made sense for the pendulum to, to swing. Like, you know, when we're at the point where Teen Vogue is, like, the right way to, you know, introduce your cannibalism fetish in the bedroom, right? There's, like, so many things wrong with that sentence. (laughs) It's like, you can only go bad, you can't, there's no, you can't go further than that. (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson3:41

      Yes. Shapiro had, uh, a really good take. I don't think that he had a particularly good episode at all about, um, the halftime show, uh, that Rihanna did, but he said something very smart when he was talking about it, which was, "When all the taboos have become mainstream, there is nothing left to transgress other than ideological transgression." And I think he just means that once everything has been put on the table, like, where do you go to find the new explicit, exciting, dirty thing?

   4. KDKatherine Dee4:14

      Right, I mean, there's, uh, two, there's two answers to that. Um, one of them I won't mention, but I think people have sort of rightfully, um, brought to the, you know, they've made it their, their mission to make sure people are aware of it. Um, and it's a little more sinister. And then the other one, um, is you, uh, you know, you be Alex P. Keaton, right? (laughs) Like, you shock your-

   5. CWChris Williamson4:40

      Who's that?

   6. KDKatherine Dee4:40

      Oh, uh, from Family Ties. That's a very dated reference from like '80, '80-

   7. CWChris Williamson4:43

      It's also a very American reference. I think that's gonna go-

   8. KDKatherine Dee4:45

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson4:45

      ... over my head in two ways.

   10. KDKatherine Dee4:46

       Uh, yeah, so just, you know, you, you, if, if everyone around you is a progressive, you, you, you shock them by being conservative.

   11. CWChris Williamson4:54

       Right. I understand. Yes. So, like, uh, culture becomes counterculture.

   12. KDKatherine Dee4:59

       Right.

   13. CWChris Williamson4:59

       Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Did you see that lady, there's a video of a lady floating around saying that there should be an ethical way for women to be paid to be drugged so that she can indulge in her kink of sleeping with unconscious girls?

   14. KDKatherine Dee5:13

       Um, I haven't seen the video, but I've, I've heard that talked about, um... I've, yeah, I've, I'm aware of, (laughs) that there's people who think that's like-

   15. CWChris Williamson5:21

       Non-ironic. That's not an ironic-

   16. KDKatherine Dee5:23

       Right.

   17. CWChris Williamson5:24

       ... video.

   18. KDKatherine Dee5:24

       Of c- I mean, of course. It, it, it makes sense, right? There's a market for, for everything.

   19. CWChris Williamson5:29

       That? A market for someone to consensually be drugged and paid for being drugged so that this lady can have sex, fulfill her kink of having sex with a... I mean, is that... That's quite surprising. Even, even in this era, that's quite surprising.

   20. KDKatherine Dee5:46

       I, I'm not surprised by that at all. I, like, I'm more surprised when... Like, I'll see TikToks sometimes of people, like, cavalierly talking about like, and this is, uh, off the deep end so I'm just gonna warn you about what I'm about to say, like very cavalierly talking about, like, playing with, like, feces in sexual situations. That shocks me, right? Like, you see a beautiful, like, 21-year-old-... uh, talking about it. It's like, "What, what did I just like..." And then, 'cause it's a TikTok, it'll autoplay, so you just watch it like 50 times just to make sure you heard it correctly. (laughs) Um, but, uh, you know, y- consensual roofieing is a little bit less.

   21. CWChris Williamson6:23

       Fair enough. Maybe scat-

   22. KDKatherine Dee6:24

       (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson6:24

       ... be, uh, somebody, somebody shitting on you is less offensive than consensual roofieing. I, maybe you're right. Maybe, maybe I'm... But I suppose, one of the things, 'cause I don't use TikTok, so I'm really not tapped into what I know is now a large, burgeoning part of internet subculture. I heard

3. 6:43 – 10:09

   TikTok Rips off Tumblr’s Originality

   1. CWChris Williamson6:43

      you talk about the fact that you could predict what was going to happen on TikTok by looking at Tumblr a few years ago, or that basically no one should be surprised by the trends that we see on TikTok-

   2. KDKatherine Dee6:53

      Oh, yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson6:53

      ... because they're just, they, they already existed. What is that? For people that weren't delving the depths of Tumblr five years ago-

   4. KDKatherine Dee7:00

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson7:00

      ... what, what's that sort of horseshoe theory?

   6. KDKatherine Dee7:02

      So, um, basic- so bi- so basically that argument is, you know, people think that TikTok introduced certain ideas or certain trends, but you can trace all of these back, all, all the way to like the dawn of the internet even. Um, like here's a really good example, uh, multiple personality disorder, right? So obviously this was a trend offline, um, I think in like the late '80s if I'm remembering correctly, right? You have all these pop, like, psych books about it. Suddenly, you know, you have like this cottage industry of therapists who are diagnosing people with multiple personality disorder. It, you know, the jury is not out yet if it's even a thing. You go on Usenet and, um, there's all of these communities, um, for people with MPD. Um, and, uh, you know, it's, it looks very similar to what people see on TikTok and they're complaining about today. They're like, "Oh, kids are just self-diagnosing," but people have been self-diagnosing, you know, as, as, as soon as they have a space to have these conversations, it's, it happens, right? So you, you could trace it all the way back to Usenet and then there's like, people have like personal homepages sort of dedicated to like, oh, you know, who are your alters, who are your other personalities, and then it really grows on Tumblr because it's just more accessible. And then TikTok is even more accessible and more and more people are online, so it, it spreads. But n- but it's not native to TikTok, um, which is I think the big mistake people make.

   7. CWChris Williamson8:30

      What's happened then? Is it more visible on TikTok? Is it more obvious? Is it more clippable and re-sharable and commentable?

   8. KDKatherine Dee8:36

      Yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's, it's two very simple things. Um, one, more people are online, all right? It's just sheer, sheer volume. Um, the time they're spending online is much higher. And also like, I think we really underestimate the, the power that journalists have. So when you write about something and you have an audience, you amplify the effect, right? Um, and that's my big argument, um, with Tumblr. I get sort of, I get misquoted a lot as saying that Tumblr like invented wokeness. That's obviously absurd, right? Like, Tumblr didn't invent Fuko, you know? But Tumblr is like a really great vehicle of transmission for ideas because there was a lot of teenagers who were using it and there was journalists who were using it as a place to get ideas very easily. And it was during the age of clickbait. It was like right when clickbait started. Um, so you see, um, uh you know, maybe this is the first time you're learning about transgender identity and you're a journalist and you, you know, you make 50 bucks a pop on your articles, you get paid a little bit extra depending on the clicks and comments, right? I remember there was one outlet where it's like if you w- went over the 600 comment threshold, you got a, you got a bonus, you know? So you have to keep that in mind. Um, so of course, you, you take these little niche things and you amplify them and your whole MO is to get people to click and to share. And people read it and it mutates and it becomes mainstream.

   9. CWChris Williamson10:07

      You also predicted

4. 10:09 – 19:44

   The Death of the Girlboss Archetype

   1. CWChris Williamson10:09

      the complete and total death of the girlboss archetype. Why? What, wh- wh- what, what was, what led you to th- to that conclusion?

   2. KDKatherine Dee10:19

      Um, it, another... So it's, it's a few things. Um, one, I, I do have to say that other people also predicted this as I wasn't, you know, I wasn't a pioneer or if I was, I was a p- I was one pioneer among many. (laughs) I love to, you know, make sure I hat tip everyone. Um, so it's a few things. One, it's, it's burn- it's, you know, the trend of burning out. Um, so it's sort of the natural life cycle. How long has this been going on? Have we gotten everything out of it that we can? How much further can we go? And that's a really simple question, but I think, again, it's another thing super underappreciated and people don't ask that, that question often enough. Um, and then the other thing is the way our lifestyles are changing. Like you can't really be a girlboss if you're like completely alone, quarantined in your apartment. Um, it just, you know... Oth- like, if you are getting into like the Alison Roman recipes as many of us were at like peak COVID, it, that doesn't really mesh as well with the whole girlboss thing. Um, it's, you know, kind of went hand in hand with, uh, sex skepticism and, and maybe a more, um, like, uh, prudent, um, approach to sex. You just, you just don't even have the opportunity to be going out and, and hustling romantically or professionally because you're stuck at home and suddenly you realize, maybe I should have been building my nest.

   3. CWChris Williamson11:47

      Right. How would you describe when it was at its peak or the promises that the girlboss meme was supposed to deliver on, how would you describe what a girlboss was?

   4. KDKatherine Dee12:01

      Um, a, a girl... I mean, it was, it's exactly what it, what it sounds like. You know, women, women can do it too. Women can, can have it all. Um, there is, there was, there was a aesthetic dimension to it as well.Um, I think for some people it was, um, like, this very put together, um, minimalist, like, she goes to the gym, she's accomplishing everything, and that was one sort of sub-genre of the girlboss. And then the other, I think, slightly more interesting one was the, the train wreck girlboss, which I think a lot of people leaned into.

   5. CWChris Williamson12:34

      What's that?

   6. KDKatherine Dee12:34

      Um, you know, she's like, she fails at dating, but who cares, you know. Um, she's, like, sh- she's doing great at her career, she doesn't need a man, um, but she's gonna sleep around like a man anyway. Um, you know, she's, like, not afraid to admit she, like, farts. You know, you know, it's just, like, a very specific sort of girl, um, that was, like, really sort of popular in the, you know, the 2010s, um, and when I was, like, just entering the workforce, this was, like, what everyone sort of aspired to be. Like, um, I also think it's sort of, like, or, you know, you know this, like, trend, I mean, it's a little old now, but the trend of, like, hot girls have IBS? I think that's sort of an outgrowth (laughs) .

   7. CWChris Williamson13:13

      Hang on, hang on, Katherine. You saying this as if it's something that I should be completely aware of, that there was a trend of hot girls identifying with their irritable bowel syndrome-

   8. KDKatherine Dee13:25

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson13:25

      ... I think that you might be over-believing how far down internet rabbit holes I've been. I'm very online-

   10. KDKatherine Dee13:32

       Okay.

   11. CWChris Williamson13:32

       ... but I pale, I pale in online-ness to how online you are.

   12. KDKatherine Dee13:36

       Okay. So there was, um, there was, like, a period where, um, you know, like, everything was for hot girls, right? Um, and this is, it, this was sort of like a commercial internet trend, so that means, like, you would see it in, like, big publications and, like, very, very sort of like normies, like, a younger sister might be familiar with something like this, it was on TikTok. So hot girls are into tinned fish, so, and this is about a year, be 18 months old by now. Hot girls have IBS, right? And it was like, you affix hot girls in front of something that's, like, not really sexy, right? Um, and there was, like, a few things that came up a lot, but basically I think what the trend was trying to encapsulate, like, hot girls are just regular women, right? Um, but it didn't really come off like that. Uh, but, like, the girlboss sort of... But the second archetype of girlboss sort of did the same thing, right? Where it's like, uh, you know, hot girls could be messy, um, without really, like, critically evaluating that mess, and it's like this culture of oversharing. Hot, um, girlbosses are in therapy and whatever, and h- uh, I keep wanting to say hot girls, but hot girls or girlbosses or whatever, right? Like, they, um, you know, they had a, they had a manic episode and spent $18,000, but who cares, because, you know, they're a product manager at Facebook (laughs) .

   13. CWChris Williamson14:58

       Oh my God. Okay. So, it seems like the girlboss archetype, at least in part, was, wasn't that much about romance, at least. Like, specifically that was something that was quite vacant from the girlboss archetype. Am I right?

   14. KDKatherine Dee15:14

       Um, it wa- it was part of it, but it was like a, sort of a different approach at romance. Like, you see sort of in the late '90s and 2000s where it's just, like, hopelessness, um, and, you know, people want relationships, but the girlboss sort of takes that and turns it around, and they're like, "So what? Yeah, I'm sleeping around. I've slept with 100 guys. Who cares?" Right? It's like, it's cool, and they don't, they don't wanna catch feelings, and like, um, there is this, like, very weird thing that you'd see portrayed in media, but also, like, in real life if you w- uh, were in certain circles of, like, women clearly catching feelings but denying it, and everyone around them sort of, like, encouraging their delusion. Um, and I mean, all of that is just very millennial, and, um, I think, like, a- you know, again, it's run out of gas, but also, uh, people are like, "This doesn't serve us, really."

   15. CWChris Williamson16:06

       Hmm. Why do you think it ran out of gas? What do you think it was that stopped that particular type of how to sleep with them and not catch feels trend from slowing down?

   16. KDKatherine Dee16:17

       I, I mean, it, there's, these, these behavioral trends, like, especially when they really are fads, they can only... Their life is only so long. Um, and, like, certain, like, bad behaviors become encoded in culture and sort of, um, you know, like, socially sanctioned. But the other thing is, like, people are lonely, and like, you know, when you're, you know, you reach, like, 35, 36, 37, and you just can't, y- you know, you can't do it anymore, um, it's, it's just like, it becomes pathetic, and you, it doesn't only look pathetic from the outside, but you feel pathetic. Um, and I think, uh, it, a lot of it is just this cohort aged out of that, that behavioral pattern. You get lonely. Um, and some people are gonna stick with the "I don't need anyone," but some people are gonna be like, "Ah, I was, I was wrong. This, you know, this actually really hurt."

   17. CWChris Williamson17:12

       What I find particularly interesting about speaking to you to do with this stuff is, there's been an awful lot of assessment around the subcultures that guys have got going on, MGTOW, red pill, black pill, incels, simps, cucks, soy boys, whatever it is, and as a guy who gets exposed to a lot of that stuff, I forget that there are a shit ton of subcultures going on that also influence, uh, value, preferences, and trends that girls are bothered t- about as well. And it seems like the, the girlboss meme, for a very long time, and maybe still is now, was a very, very important part of it.

   18. KDKatherine Dee17:53

       Yeah. I mean, I mean definitely. It, I, I think there, there are always these, um, archetypes. I think what's interesting is, um, a lot of the male ones are sort of like, um, they're empowering through embracing disempowerment. You know, like, there is something empowering about just saying, "Yes, I am an incel," and finding other incels, right? Or, you know, Men Going Their Own Way is obviously like a, you know, a more extreme example of that. Um, but, uh...With, with women, it's sort of like this delusion of empowerment, and it's still a, it's like not acknowledging the disempowerment in a real way, or making light of it, um, and not trying to, to, to fix it as much. Um, there is, of course, like a victimhood stance that some people, um, went into, but it, it just manifests in a very different way.

   19. CWChris Williamson18:44

       Mm-hmm. I've heard you say as well that there's kind of two types of feminism clashing up against each other here, sex-positive feminism and corporate feminism. And not always do they end up agreeing.

   20. KDKatherine Dee18:56

       Yeah. Um, you know, there, there's like th- these things evolve, especially when, like, there's like intergenerational voices. Um, you know, sex pos- sex-positive, uh, femininity, or feminism rather, um, pushed the envelope, and it was genuinely shocking at a time, and a lot of people didn't know what to do with that early on. Like, um, you know, you have someone like a, like a Tina Fey, right, who was sort of like an icon. You know, it feels so weird to say that now, was an icon for a time. Um, you know, may not like totally understand like, uh, at, you know, uh, then like 21-year-old Millennial who's talking about sex workers' rights.

   21. CWChris Williamson19:42

       Hmm.

5. 19:44 – 29:40

   Looking to the Future of Female Trends

   1. CWChris Williamson19:44

      What's your prediction moving forward, given that you can update yourself now in 2023, two years on from-

   2. KDKatherine Dee19:50

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson19:50

      ... the prediction of The Death of the Girlboss? Have we got further to fall? What do you think is coming next for female subcultures and trends?

   4. KDKatherine Dee19:58

      Um, I, well, I think that there's ... I've seen like a lot of, um, like very sort of moderate, like self-criticism. Um, and I think people would be surpris- ... Like I, you know, I constantly hear like, you know, the woke will become woker, the l- you know, the left will move further le- you know, using these terms very loosely, of course. They've become sort of divorced from their original meanings. But I've seen like a lot of more mainstream and, um, left-wing women are, um, starting to self-criticize and become a little bit more, um, like walking certain things back. Right? Like you have the, you know, when I talked about the coming wave of sex negativity, I was talking about also people who were, um, maybe more extreme or may like identify as right wing, but I think that it's coming everywhere. Um, there is, um, and you see this like, this m- move to moderation, um, all over the place. Another really interesting thing is, um, you know, when I look at people in the transgender community talking, um, there's a lot of conversation about, um, maybe being more, um, deliberate about s- uh, surg- surgical choices, and this was always a conversation that was happening in this community, uh, partially because of like, um, you know, affordability. But people saying like, "Look, I got, uh, sex reassignment surgery and it didn't work for me, and it doesn't have to be, um ... That doesn't mean you're not trans, but maybe you don't get it." And that's a kind ... That's not a conversation that you hear talked about, um, very, very often. Right? Because the conversation tends to home in on, um, access and making sure people get, um, that sort- that particular type of medical care. But I think that's a sign of more moderation is just pop- popping up everywhere. Another place, um, you see is like people are moving away from alcohol. They're dr- they're drinking less. Um, and maybe they're not literally drinking less. Like their behavior isn't reflecting that, but the conversation is a- is-

   5. CWChris Williamson22:00

      Mm-hmm.

   6. KDKatherine Dee22:00

      ... it is in that direction. Um, so, you know, those are just three different examples of places where people are being self-critical and slowing it down and, um, you know, being a l- uh, leading a slower life or at least the zeitgeist pointing towards a slower life.

   7. CWChris Williamson22:18

      What is an example of some of the self-criticism that women have been doling out?

   8. KDKatherine Dee22:24

      Um, y- I've seen, um, definitely like conversations about MeToo. Um, and, you know, these are things we heard from sort of like the dissident center, so to speak. Um, and the right, like, uh, you know, from the jump, was very critical of, of MeToo. But now you see from, um, more of the center left and left saying like, "Maybe we, we took it, we took it a step too far." Um, and, uh, you know, being very conscious in the discourse not to, uh, invalidate other people's experiences, but also like walking things back, and basically saying-

   9. CWChris Williamson23:00

      Oh. Would, would, would an example of this be some of the pushback to these gym TikTok things?

   10. KDKatherine Dee23:05

       Yeah. Yeah. Um, West Elm Caleb was also like another like really great example of a sort of-

   11. CWChris Williamson23:11

       I don't know that, don't know. You just keep on naming people that-

   12. KDKatherine Dee23:13

       Yeah. (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson23:13

       ... honestly could be final Fantasy or World of Warcraft characters.

   14. KDKatherine Dee23:17

       (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson23:17

       And I would just be going along with it. Who is this?

   16. KDKatherine Dee23:19

       Um, okay. So there is this ... Basically this, this guy gets publicly humiliated because he led on a bunch of women on, I think it was Hinge or, or Tinder. Right? And he gets publicly humiliated on TikTok and a bunch of pe- a bunch of journalists write about it, and a bunch of advertising agencies and, um, corporations like jump on it and use it as a punchline. And it just blew up this guy's spot. Right? Um, I think if, if that had happened in 2018, um, people would've been like, "This guy's a jerk." Um, you know, "These women didn't consent to be, you know, in a roster." Or like whatever thing. Right? And, um, I think because it happened after there had been so many of uh, these, you know, I, I think, there, there'd been so many like MeToo type situations that maybe were, you know, on the wider, the, the wider end of the gray scale, if you know what I mean. Um, (laughs) there was more like, "Um, what are we doing? Why are we humiliating this guy?" Like can't, like can't someone be like a douchebag in like the comfort of their own home without it being like a national news story? Um, and I think that was sort of like a gr- I think that was like a pivot point of saying like-We- we've been leaning into the victimhood thing a little bit too long. Um, and when I think of, like, uh, people saying the mood is changing or the vibe is shifting, those things that feel insignificant actually are very significant.

   17. CWChris Williamson24:42

       That's really interesting. I think I would agree on the- the pushback against this super overzealous sort of Me Tooing, the very middling ground... Not to say that it's not wrong or, you know, like, shitbag behavior, but calling it Me Too... And, you know, this is... The incentives, if you think about it for long enough, actually end up aligning for a lot of people to be on board with this. Because if you end up expanding the definition of what sexual assaults or, like, Me Too-worthy behavior from a guy is to encompass more and more things, it dilutes down the legitimacy of genuine sexual assault and of genui- genuinely predatory behavior. It's the same as, like, if- if everything is racist, then nothing is racist.

   18. KDKatherine Dee25:25

       Right.

   19. CWChris Williamson25:25

       If everything is sexual assault, then nothing is sexual assault.

   20. KDKatherine Dee25:28

       Exactly. Um, and I think that the people who we assumed would never come to that conclusion, they're coming to that conclusion.

   21. CWChris Williamson25:37

       Is it just that after a while the incentives don't align with... I- it's no longer shocking for journalists to talk about this sort of stuff. It doesn't garner the same sort of clicks. It doesn't... Because people have seen it a million times before. And if people start hate commenting whatever it is that you do, or you end up with a ton of negative pushback like that girl did, that did the super famous TikTok of her doing, like, glute bridge, and this guy looked over and h- tried to help her clean the plates once, and then she went to town, and then she got destroyed about it. Is it just that it... a- every type of meme or subculture that isn't grounded in genuine truth or integrity or alignment with what happens in reality inevitably just runs out of steam? Is that what's going on?

   22. KDKatherine Dee26:25

       Um, I mean, I don't... K- kind of, yeah. I mean, I- I- I think we really do sort of, like, live in this, um, you know, economy of, uh, of, it's like clickbait economy. Um, and things just run their course, especially if, like, it's just ceaseless discourse. I mean, another thing I think is that younger people are sort of less interested in, um, discourse. And by that, I mean, like, the constant culture war debates. Um, is this right? Is this wrong? Is this moral? Um, and you see, like, they're much more interested in talking about, um, aesthetics, micro trends, um, you know, nostalgia in- in sort of a more... You know, they're just, they just seem, like, more interested in that. And, uh, I've seen, I'm also noticing that, like, the paranormal is, uh, becoming, like, more interesting to people. Um, so, uh, you know, of course, the new age has been trendy for a while, and we've had this new age renaissance like astrology. But I see, like, the difference with, like, paranormal being, like, it's not about predicting your own life. It's just, it's... There's, like, a pure leisure, uh, aspect of this. Um, it's like this cultural exhaustion (laughs) that everyone has, and it's changing what people are interested in.

   23. CWChris Williamson27:40

       Didn't you say that manifestation is making a comeback?

   24. KDKatherine Dee27:43

       Yeah. The- there is, um... Yeah, there's definitely... Manifestation is- is everywhere, right? Um, I don't know if it's making a- a comeback, but it's been... It's- it's- it's been around. Um, uh, like, we've- we've been... For a long time, we've been, like, living in this culture of, uh, tell me what's gonna happen next, and how can I will myself into getting exactly what I want. Like, I think, you know, like, you know, in the fu- the future, um, everyone will be seen exactly, uh, uh, how they want to be seen for 15 minutes, (laughs) something like that.

   25. CWChris Williamson28:17

       You found an example of some lady that said if your partner is talking to you and they're saying something that you don't want to hear, then block that sound out in your mind, imagine the things that you want to hear them saying to you, and manifest into existence that they stop complaining about the fact that you didn't pick up the dog poo outside, but actually how gorgeous you are or whatever it was that she was talking about.

   26. KDKatherine Dee28:41

       Oh, yeah, it's bonkers, right? (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson28:42

       Yes. Yeah, that's- that's full on bananas.

   28. KDKatherine Dee28:46

       Yeah, it's- it's really cr- I mean, some of the- so- some of the manifestation stuff is really out there. Um, I, you know, it's- it's a helplessness, right? Like, you just, um, you know, you want something so badly, and you don't know how to... you don't know how to get it. And I mean, I also think a big part of it is all... people aren't really out in the world living. A lot of our- our living takes place in front of a screen or on our couch or whatever.

   29. CWChris Williamson29:08

       How does that change things?

   30. KDKatherine Dee29:10

       Well, because if you're sort of stuck within your own mind, right, like, you keep... There's- there's nothing that you can actually physically do. We're so cerebral that changing the way you think does make sense in that framework.
6. 29:40 – 36:50

   Young Guys are Taking Relationship Examples from the Internet

   1. CWChris Williamson29:40

      uh, incel black pill ideology and, uh, how it is that my experience and most of the guys that I know's experiences don't seem to necessarily speak to the world that a lot of young guys seem to be talking about online. And the reason that I think, at least in part, that this is true, is that social media, increasing levels of social anxiety, and a lack of exposure to mating in the real world means that a lot of especially young guys' experiences about different ways that relationships can unfold are experienced primarily through the internet. And by design, the stories that are going to catch fire on the internet are the most egregious ones about some guy that leaves to go and get the milk and comes back and finds his wife in bed with the postman and the postman's dog, and then she leaves him and takes the kids and his leg and a bunch of other stuff.... that, quite rightly, will get 100,000 upvotes on Reddit, which means that downstream from that, young guys who have no other evidence to suggest that women aren't all like that take that as representative of what's going on at large. And I think that this is one of the problems when you have a chronically online world, you have no real world evidence to suggest that the thing that the most online people and the most egregious stories talk about might not be true.

   2. KDKatherine Dee30:57

      Absolutely. And, and it's interesting. It's, like, depends on, like, demographic too, um, and geography. Like, there's all these, like, little things that change people's bubble. Like, ask a woman who's, like, like, a relatively attractive woman who's, like, tw- between the ages of, like, 18 and 27, and they'll say, like, "It's so easy to get a guy." Like, you know, you could just sorta... It, it's like a conveyor belt. Ask a woman who's, uh, you know, 32 or older, and there is this perception that any guy can get literally any girl, you know? Um, ask most men, they're like, "All women are, are sluts." And they, they have a, you know, the... (laughs) I hate this term, but like a cock carousel, you know, the female alternative to the, the roster. Uh, so it's, it... you know, everyone... And they all underestimate sort of, like, how their specific circumstances also impact... You know, it's more than just, like, confirmation bias, right? Like, if you're a 35-year-old woman in, you know, upper middle class to upper class circles in Manhattan, yeah, you're gonna, you're gonna struggle, right? It's just... It... Like, of course. But, um, if you're in a... you know, you're a 21-year-old in the Bay Area, well, yeah, the world is your oyster. (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson32:12

      Yes. What about rejection sensitivity? What's that? It's the first time that I'd ever heard of it when you wrote about it.

   4. KDKatherine Dee32:17

      Oh yeah, that (laughs) th- that, that was a very weird, uh, article. So that was, that was an article I wrote, or I guess a blog post that I wrote, um, about how we experience, like, much higher volumes of rejection that we don't even clock as rejection. Um, and, um, we're experiencing, like, micro-rejections every single day. Um, and what might be perceived as an overreaction is just, like, a compounded, a compounded reaction.

   5. CWChris Williamson32:44

      What like?

   6. KDKatherine Dee32:44

      Um, like, so, you know, you po-... Like, there's all these, like, microways we can get rejected online. Um, so then when we face, like, a real rejection, it might feel, like, more, um, more painful than it might have otherwise because we're sort of, like, swimming in this soup of rejection. Um, dating apps are, like, a really great example of this. Like, you're, you're being rejected thousands of times, in some cases, on dating apps. And, like, we don't really appreciate, like, how painful that is. Um, like, if you're someone who only gets, like, one or two matches in a month, like, you might not consciously think, "I was rejected every single time I swiped," but that's, that's act-... Like, you, you were, and, like, there's... you know, you synthesize that information. Um, I know it sounds petty, but, like, not getting likes on, on social media or, like, not feeling heard I think is sort of a more compassionate way to frame that. Um, being unfollowed or being blocked, like, all these things, they feel so minor in the moment. But when you, like, take them, um, sort of, like, h- holistically and you're like, "All of these things happening," um, and then there's, like, there's things, like, even in the real world of, like, uh, you know, someone, uh, y- you say, "Excuse me," but they're looking at their phone and you're just sort of brushed off. Like, this ha- this is happening to people thousands and thousands of times and has to have an impact on the way we feel.

   7. CWChris Williamson34:08

      So, there's a sea of ambient rejection that just happens.

   8. KDKatherine Dee34:12

      Yes.

   9. CWChris Williamson34:13

      I mean, one of the ways that apps are designed is for you to not feel the pain of rejection, right? I mean, e- once you're matched with somebody, you can message them and they could not message back. But even with that, it's, "Oh, maybe they didn't see it or maybe they were busy or maybe they, maybe they, you know, got hit by a truck or something." You don't actually know why it was that they rejected you. But I do think, I think that there's some legs to that. And obviously, the, like, the easy pushback is, "Well, we live in a time which has got the greatest wealth and comfort of any civilization ever. All of these things pale into the background." But I do think that in a time where people have got fewer friends on average than ever before, the ability to ride the waves of small rejections in a increasingly cerebral, more neurotic, more socially anxious, less outside, less exposed to sun, less touching-grass world probably does mean that a lot of people will feel these rejections. And not only will they be more exposed to them, but are probably more sensitive to them when they do get exposed to them. So, I don't think that there's, I don't think that there's necessarily really any reason for people to feel like if that is something that they sense, that's some, uh, indication of personal failing on their part. It's like, look, we, we weren't designed to be exposed to this many people this frequently.

   10. KDKatherine Dee35:27

       Absolutely.

   11. CWChris Williamson35:28

       And downstream from that, the number of potential rejections that you could have had in one day on the internet is the same as you could have had in an entire lifetime 10,000 years ago.

   12. KDKatherine Dee35:38

       Yeah. I mean, and the... you know, the other part of this is, like, boundaries have been sort of obliterated. So, like, we don't even realize sometimes, like, how intimate we are with s- total strangers. Especially, like, it's so easy, like, via text or, like, if... again, like, to... The dating app example, like, in the, the talking stage as it's sometimes called, like, you know, you, you open up so much. And, like, in person, those are, like, hard-earned conversations, but they just flow when they're text. Um, and then so, like, when you lose a friend who's, like, just an internet friend, actually it's, like, really painful, right? Because you, you know, you don't quite know how to measure that intimacy.

   13. CWChris Williamson36:20

       Mm. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, if somebody wants to rail against terminally online culture, they can say, "Look at how fucking ridiculous this is. This is totally stupid. Why should anybody be bothered about whether they make or break friends on, on the internet? Your friends should be in the real world. They should be the people that you care about the most." But the bottom line is that you need to...... adapt to the world the way it is, not the way that you want it to be, and people are chronically online. People aren't spending tons of time in the real world with genuine friends. And, yeah, it's, uh, it's very, very interesting. Okay, so you, you also did

7. 36:50 – 39:38

   Why Women Get Paranoid When They Like a Man

   1. CWChris Williamson36:50

      a blog post recently which was like 80 pieces of dating advice.

   2. KDKatherine Dee36:56

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson36:56

      I found some of my favorites, and I wanna go through some of these with you. So, the first one is, "If a woman likes you, she is automatically going to assume other women are pursuing you, because she thinks everyone views you the way that she does. I call these love goggles."

   4. KDKatherine Dee37:10

      Yeah. (laughs) You know, when you're, when you're paranoid that someone's gonna take your, take your guy, right? (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson37:18

      What does that speak to about women's psychology? Is that suggesting that, you, you know, you become besotted, and that kind of jades your opinion of how other people view that same person, but in reality, no one probably cares about your new crush?

   6. KDKatherine Dee37:32

      Um, you know, it, it sort of comes... So, I, I wrote that because it comes from this. A lot of, a lot of women are, um... Paranoid is really the wrong word, but like insecure, right, that like they're competing, um, when some- when they're not always. Um, and it's like sometimes, like I have like tons of male friends who will be like, "Well, I don't know why she thinks this," right? Like, she's sort of like the only... Like, I, I, I couldn't pursue someone else even if I wanted to, sort of thing, right? Um, there's just, there... 'Cause there is no one else. Um, and it's like an answer to like the insecurity in women, but also like the confusion from men. Um, like when you like someone, you assume... You, you see, you see them with, with rose-tinted glasses, right? Y- You assume everyone else sees them in such a favorable light, um, when that's not, you know, that's not always the ca- It's like, you know, uh, I don't know if you've e- ever seen this trope of like, no one wants your husband, right? Like (laughs) only you want-

   7. CWChris Williamson38:29

      No, what's that?

   8. KDKatherine Dee38:30

      Um, like, like the overprotective wife whose husband is just like some like random fat dude, and you're like, "What?" (laughs) Like, chill out, chill girl, like (laughs) sort of like a meme that you, you see in like TV and stuff.

   9. CWChris Williamson38:43

      That's definitely something I think that most online men's dating advice doesn't really think about, which is the insecurity of girls that are besotted or have fallen pretty quickly for a new guy. And, you know, although the, the internet and stats on Tinder may suggest that it's only the top 20% of men that this is happening to, every girl that's listening has fallen for some dude that is a strong six and has just been like-

   10. KDKatherine Dee39:09

       Oh, yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson39:10

       ... "Look, I, I don't know what it is about him. He makes me laugh, he's cute, he's got an interesting job, he's goes to the gym, he does whatever, he smells nice." Fucking cool hair, whatever it is that they like, plays the guitar.

   12. KDKatherine Dee39:20

       L- people call this like medium ugly, right? There's this whole meme of like the m-

   13. CWChris Williamson39:23

       They call it what? (laughs)

   14. KDKatherine Dee39:24

       ... medium ugly, like women sort of like, "I don't know why, I just like, you know, he's a hard six, he's a hard five, but like (laughs) I still want him."

   15. CWChris Williamson39:33

       I like it.

   16. KDKatherine Dee39:33

       Yeah. (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson39:34

       Yeah, yeah. And that, that degree of insecurity is interesting. Okay, next one.

8. 39:38 – 40:22

   Red Flags to Look For in a Man

   1. CWChris Williamson39:38

      "Not having friends is a red flag. Shit-talking exes is a red flag." Why?

   2. KDKatherine Dee39:44

      Um, I'm, I- it's, you know, it's conventional, conventional wisdom, right, like if every ex is a problem, well, who's the common denominator? Um, and I know we're sort of in like an epidemic of, uh, friendlessness, um, but at the same time, like you should have at least one friend, or, you know, at least two friends, barring extreme circumstances, like, you know, some people live in like rural areas or, or something. But, um, you know, it makes it more difficult. Uh, but you should, y- you know, you should be able to have l- long-term relationships.

   3. CWChris Williamson40:20

      "Convoluted dating advice for men

9. 40:22 – 41:38

   Beware of Convoluted Dating Advice

   1. CWChris Williamson40:22

      or women is always a grift. Don't let your m- romantic life become a product." What do you mean by convoluted dating advice?

   2. KDKatherine Dee40:29

      Um, you know, just like how every little thing, uh, you know, matters, like every little thing is a red flag, every... Like if, you know, move your hand two inches to the right, and then it signals that, you know, whatever. Like there's all this weird stuff like that out there, um, and usually it's just a way for someone to sell a personality or, uh, a course or a book, or, you know, just get attention.

   3. CWChris Williamson40:53

      Oh, because what they do is they purposefully overcomplicate the dynamic-

   4. KDKatherine Dee40:57

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson40:57

      ... of how to get somebody, because that gives them the, uh, what does my housemate Zack calls it? Uh, it's like secret knowledge or gated knowledge or something. This is, he's got a charlatan's playbook, and it's a bunch of different things that you can go through to determine whether or not a guru is a- actually a charlatan or if they're legit. And one of them is this, uh, yeah, gate-kept secret knowledge that nobody else understands, and it's always using terms that no one's ever heard of before or that are purpose-built to try and describe what they're talking about. It is always very convoluted. It is always very complex.

   6. KDKatherine Dee41:29

      Right, like you, you don't need to wear a certain perfume or a certain lipstick for men, and, you know, w- Like men and women both are actually pretty, pretty simple, I think.

10. 41:38 – 43:05

    Be Direct, Not Desperate

    1. CWChris Williamson41:38

       "Be direct, not desperate."

    2. KDKatherine Dee41:41

       Yeah. Uh, you know, desperate is like cloying and asking repeatedly, um, uh, you know, uh, sort of being a hanger-on, not taking signals, um, litigating answers is like a big one. Um, and directness is just saying what you mean and being honest and transparent.

    3. CWChris Williamson42:02

       Who do you think that's a bigger deal for, guys or girls?

    4. KDKatherine Dee42:06

       Um, I think both in different, in different ways. Um, you know, I, I don't think we talk enough about like, like women do this thing like, like drunk texting, but really they got drunk for the sole purpose of sending, you know, 20 desperate text messages, right? Um, you know, like counting the seconds between like responses, things like that. You know, just, just be... It's, it's hard, it's, it's, it's... 'Cause you think if you send a lot of messages, or if you, like somehow some- it'll change or it'll like appeal to the, to this person, but it, it, I mean, it doesn't, you know? (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson42:41

       And being direct is always going to be pretty attractive, I think, from both guys and girls. There's very few people that I could imagine, very s- few situations in which somebody being more direct... Unless it was first date and they're being, like, overly... They're over- oversharing. As soon as you get past that sort of first step, being direct, I think, makes a lot of sense. Okay, next one. Uh, "He doesn't

11. 43:05 – 45:40

    Don’t Be Too Available for Sex

    1. CWChris Williamson43:05

       have NPD." What's NPD?

    2. KDKatherine Dee43:07

       Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

    3. CWChris Williamson43:09

       Thank you. "He doesn't have n- narcissistic personality disorder. He wants to have sex and you're too available. And on that note, you never want to be too available. Even if the person likes you, that's how you lose your value. That doesn't mean you can't be a ride-or-die, but boundaries don't only protect your feelings, they protect your worth." What's that?

    4. KDKatherine Dee43:29

       Um, all right, so the NPD thing, it's, like, one of these excuses people use, like, "Oh, he love bombed me." You know? Like, so love bombing is, like, when, uh, you're, uh... It's- it's- it's a clinical term, but the way (laughs) it's used is, like, when a guy's, like, too sweet in the beginning, and you, like, you know, you are taken with him. Well, you know, it's a, like, obvious, like, millennia old tactic, right? (laughs) And now that we've, like, medicalized it for some reason-

    5. CWChris Williamson43:55

       Now it's a pathology.

    6. KDKatherine Dee43:56

       Right. And it's just like, no, he just wanted to fuck you. Like, (laughs) you know? It's obvious. Um, but, yeah, be, you know, being too available is like saying yes to everything, um, uh, you know, uh... Again, it seems so cliché and obvious, like, don't answer a, like, "W- what are you doing?" text at 3:00 in the morning, but, like, a lot of people actually do or, like, dropping everything, um, you know, you don't have to play hard to get in, like, some labyrinthine way, y- but you don't, you also don't have to, like, put your own life on hold to make the other person know that you like them. You can do that in ways that, um, maintain your, your self-respect. Um, one of the things that does trend, um, in sort of, like, dating, uh, and relationship circles that I think is actually really useful is this phrase called limerence, which is like an obsessive sort of love. Um, and it's not love, right? It's like, it's like the crush that rules your life, and I think that is actually, like, a really good thing to be aware of, because that's... You're not in love. It's you didn't meet your soulmate. Like, you... It's filling a void, and you're actually using it, um, in the same way people might use a substance. Like, it is sort of an addiction, um-

    7. CWChris Williamson45:11

       Limerence?

    8. KDKatherine Dee45:11

       ... and I think a lot of people... Yeah, I think a lot of people fall into that trap.

    9. CWChris Williamson45:15

       Never heard that word before. I got- I went down the rabbit hole of liminal spaces. I know that that was a huge thing on the internet, but something tells me that that's, like, old news to you.

    10. KDKatherine Dee45:25

        (laughs) Um, yeah, I mean, liminal spaces are interesting. It's a different, different lane, but it- it- they are interesting.

    11. CWChris Williamson45:31

        I'm aware it's a d- I'm aware it's a different lane. Look, I'm just, I'm just trying to find common ground between me and someone that is, like, the most online person that I've ever met.

    12. KDKatherine Dee45:38

        (laughs)

    13. CWChris Williamson45:38

        Okay, next one. "Predictable

12. 45:40 – 48:17

    Why Predictability is Good for Relationships

    1. CWChris Williamson45:40

       is good." Why?

    2. KDKatherine Dee45:42

       Um, you, I mean, you don't want someone who always is, um, keeping you on edge, right? Like, you should know how they react. And that works in both ways. Like, what makes them angry? But what makes them happy? You know, someone where you don't know if they're gonna like you one day to the next, like, that isn't fun. Um, and I'll- I think a lot of, um, these, this, like, advice that's about, like, predicting and sort of, like, sussing out, like, what does this really mean, what- like, when a guy says X, it means Y, a lot of that is sort of, like, trying to, like, rationalize when people don't really like you or when they're playing games with you. Um, you should, like, you should be able to tell pretty early what things mean, even if it, there are certain nuances, uh, that vary from person to person.

    3. CWChris Williamson46:26

       Interesting. Yeah, there's a conversation I had with, uh, Logan Ury, who is the Director of Relationship Science forhinge, and she was talking about how a lot of people don't believe that the person that they've just started dating is right for them because they don't feel a spark. And with other people, they have spelt- felt a spark, but those people they felt a spark with were perhaps unpredictable or had a whole laundry list of other problems. What they don't realize is that some people are just sparky. They spark with the person at the checkout, they spark with the Uber driver, they spark when they go to the bar and give their ID to the person at the front. They spark with everyone, including the people that they date. And that having that spark r- isn't particularly indicative of anything. Like, one of the most reliable predictors of relationship success is something called psychological stability. So, after an incident where, um, your baseline has been knocked off, so an argument or something sad or whatever it is, how long does it take for you to get back to baseline? And that's a very, very reliable predictor of relationship success long term. That's predictable, right?

    4. KDKatherine Dee47:35

       Right.

    5. CWChris Williamson47:35

       Unpredictable would be they're gonna block me on social media, and the only way that I can send them messages is by PayPaling them one-cent amounts with a message hidden in the references. Or they're going to be, uh, straight back loving me within seconds of this thing happening.

    6. KDKatherine Dee47:52

       Yeah, I- and, you know, I think a lot of people crave those relationships. Um, one, because, like, it feels like when those people are on and positive, it feels like more valuable for some reason. Um, but also, like, they're using the relationship to fill another void. Um, and, you know, it's- it's- I get it. It's addictive, right? Like, these are traps that I've- I've fallen into, uh, which is why I- I share my- my knowledge with the, (laughs) with the world.

13. 48:17 – 49:45

    Relationships Should Always Have Forward Momentum

    1. KDKatherine Dee48:17

    2. CWChris Williamson48:17

       "There should always be forward momentum. That doesn't mean moving too fast, but don't let yourself fall into relationship purgatory. Men will take the initiative if they're serious. Sure, there are insecure men, but even they will move things along."

    3. KDKatherine Dee48:31

       Um, yeah, just if, you know, if you don't know if he's your boyfriend, um, within like, you know, a month or two, then he's, you know, he's not your boyfriend, and keep it moving. I- I f- I f- yeah.

    4. CWChris Williamson48:45

       That's... I think that's very true, and, you know, I know from being a chronic...... guy around the party scene throughout all of my 20s, the dudes that were reticent about the what are we conversation don't have tonnes of, on average, don't have tonnes of emotional baggage that means that they have trouble committing. It's that they're nexting, waiting for something better to come along, or that they're just generally emotionally unavailable. Now, again, on average, this differs from person to person. This may not apply at all areas underneath it, fucking normal distribution of experiences. But if you are never, if he never asks you out, if he never says to you, "Uh, why don't we do this? Here is a plan. Here's something that I think would be cool," if it's always you pushing to see when are we going to see each other next, what is it that's happening, uh, I do think that that would be amber flag.

    5. KDKatherine Dee49:41

       Yeah, absolutely. When men are sure, they're really sure.

14. 49:45 – 51:23

    You Can’t Manipulate Your Way into Relationship with Sex

    1. KDKatherine Dee49:45

       (laughs)

    2. CWChris Williamson49:45

       I would say yes. Okay, uh, you can't manipulate your way into a relationship with sex. If they don't want to date you, they don't want to date you. Doing this is a good way to get use for your body.

    3. KDKatherine Dee49:56

       Um, yeah, I mean, and this is, okay, this is a bad advice you see all over like women's publications or like women's media, or at least you did especially in the 20, um, the 2010s, where it's sort of like you could like blow your way into having a boyfriend. But, uh, you know, and, uh, if you, if a guy likes the way you give head, but doesn't like you as a person, you're just gonna keep blowing it. You, you know, he's not gonna be your boyfriend. (laughs) And it's like brutal, but it's just like kinda is what it is. (laughs)

    4. CWChris Williamson50:29

       Wow, yeah, I think that's true. I don't think that you can sex your way into a relationship. Now, there's some guys that, uh, uh, reticent up until that point. I think, again, looking around me at most of the guys that are my age now, you know, my friends that are between sort of 30 and 35 and still single and dating, most of them are, their relationship with sex, especially casual sex, is wildly different. Uh, so I wonder how much of these things are just trends that occur when people are a little bit younger, a little bit more emotionally immature, still have a greater desire for sexual variety and novelty and new experiences, and everything's just a bit excitable, um, but I do think that that calms down over time.

    5. KDKatherine Dee51:15

       Yeah, I, I, I think you're probably right. Um, like who is dating advice generally for? It's, I think it's for people in their 20s.

    6. CWChris Williamson51:22

       I would agree. Okay, men drop

15. 51:23 – 53:11

    Learn from People Through Their Jokes

    1. CWChris Williamson51:23

       hints about weird things they're into through jokes. You can learn a lot about people by what they joke about. Pay attention, then make them think you're psychic by calling them on it.

    2. KDKatherine Dee51:33

       (laughs) Um, yeah, I mean, just exactly, exactly what it sounds like. Um, uh, people, um, uh, you know, it's a companion piece of advice to this is like people will tell you how they'll hurt you early on. Um, people tell on themselves constantly, and we just don't pay attention or we write things off as jokes. Um, you know, if a guy like jokes about a sex act a lot, like he's probably into it and is gauging your reaction. Um-

    3. CWChris Williamson52:01

       I have a friend, I have a friend who at every party or meetup that I've ever been to talks about eating ass, and he talks about it in the most... Uh, he's trying to laugh it off. He, he'll sort of slot it into a joke, but it's pretty ungainly. It's pretty consistent as well, reliably. I would go as far as to say that I've never been to a party where this hasn't come out of his mouth.

    4. KDKatherine Dee52:25

       (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson52:25

       I'm like... This is not, this is not some mere like quirk of your language. This is something much deeper that is coming out of you.

    6. KDKatherine Dee52:36

       Yeah, I mean, and, and, but people do that with all sorts of things, right? It's not just like the guy is constantly joking about eating ass. Also, like, um, you know, what people are preoccupied with is revealing for... And it- and these are, again, like it's obvious once you say it out loud, but it's easy to miss. Uh, um, another sort of companion piece of advice is if they think you're cheating, uh, they are, they are cheating, or they know that they themselves are capable of cheating.

    7. CWChris Williamson53:04

       Mm, yeah, because they use theory of mind to project forward-

    8. KDKatherine Dee53:08

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson53:09

       ... what they would be doing if they were behaving in that way. Okay,

16. 53:11 – 53:41

    Don’t Look for People Similar to Your Ex

    1. CWChris Williamson53:11

       don't seek someone out who's like your ex. They're not going to be the same. They're not even going to be better. Heal that wound that motivates you to have a type.

    2. KDKatherine Dee53:20

       Yeah, um, you know, if you dated someone who ha- was like in a particular profession, um, it's not that you have like a thing for people in that profession. You miss your ex, and don't, you know, don't make someone, don't try to relive that story and change the ending.

    3. CWChris Williamson53:37

       Mm.

    4. KDKatherine Dee53:37

       Um, start, you know, start something new.

    5. CWChris Williamson53:39

       Okay, it's always going to,

17. 53:41 – 54:46

    Be the Less Invested Partner

    1. CWChris Williamson53:41

       it's always better to be the less invested partner even if it isn't the more fun option. This has been old-school dating advice for as long as dating advice has been around, right? Like, the person that holds the most power in the relationship is the one who cares less. Where does it's always better to be the less invested partner, even if it's n- n- isn't the more fun o- option come from?

    2. KDKatherine Dee54:02

       Um, that, I mean, it, it, it's just old school. You don't wanna, uh, uh, it's conventional wisdom. You don't want to be the one, um, who's constantly, uh, chasing. Basically, you just don't wanna be the, the chaser.

    3. CWChris Williamson54:16

       What would you say to people that push back with, "Every relationship should be equal. Everybody should be equally invested. That's the sign of an unascended, unawakened relationship between two partners that are still playing a game, a power game of push and pull"?

    4. KDKatherine Dee54:31

       Um, relationships become equal over time, and, um, you know, a lot of dating advice is for the earlier on in the funnel, and, uh, you don't start, nothing starts on equal footing, too bad. (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson54:45

       If you have to open up

18. 54:46 – 55:35

    If You’re Composing a Reply on Apple Notes, It’s Time to Break Up

    1. CWChris Williamson54:46

       the Notes app to type out a message, break up.

    2. KDKatherine Dee54:51

       Yep. (laughs) You just, if it has to be an essay, you already took a wrong turn somewhere.

    3. CWChris Williamson54:56

       Yeah, I- I think back to some of the times in the office at the events company that I used to work at, and the number of times that the guys would be crowdsourcing the way to do a reply from the boys that were in the room. Like, "Oh, fucking hell, lads, like she's ... Look, she sent me ..." And they'd scroll for ages. They'd go, "Look, she sent me all this." They go, "Oh, you must be in trouble," and then we would end up helping them formulate a response as they desperately tried to crowdfund whatever the, like, way to calm this particular outrage down is best.

    4. KDKatherine Dee55:29

       (laughs) Yeah, that's ... It's never good. It's never a good sign.

    5. CWChris Williamson55:33

       No. Never date someone

19. 55:35 – 57:56

    Don’t Date Someone if You Wouldn’t Be Comfortable Marrying Them

    1. CWChris Williamson55:35

       who you wouldn't feel comfortable marrying. Definitely never date someone you wouldn't be s- want to be seen in a restaurant with.

    2. KDKatherine Dee55:42

       (laughs) Um, that was me talking to me. (laughs) Um, 'cause I've definitely dated people I wouldn't wanna be seen in a restaurant with.

    3. CWChris Williamson55:51

       Why? What wouldn't, why wouldn't you have wanted to be seen in a restaurant with them?

    4. KDKatherine Dee55:54

       Like, they, you know, wear, like, fully realized steampunk outfits or something. (laughs) I don't know. I- I have dated some weirdos. Um, but, you know, I- I do think there is this thing of like, you know, good for right now, not good for, you know, for forever. Um, and, um, sometimes you do end up marrying that person, and you're like, you know, in six years past, you're like, "What did I do with my life?" You know? (laughs) You know?

    5. CWChris Williamson56:21

       Mm.

    6. KDKatherine Dee56:21

       So just ... It's, you know, it- even if you're not ready for that step, it's good to take every relationship seriously, just in case, because you kind of don't know how things are gonna go. And you don't wanna, you don't ever wanna be in a situation where you're making excuses for people. Um, there, you can be compassionate of people's flaws, right? But you don't wanna make excuses. And I do feel like there's a lot of e- excuse-making in dating. Or it's like, "Oh, he sleeps on a mattress and cheats on me, but I'm not gonna marry him." And then he knocks you up, and like maybe you do marry him, you know? (laughs)

    7. CWChris Williamson56:51

       That was one of the heuristics I spoke to Louise Perry about, where I was saying, if the only people that you ended up sleeping with or getting into relationships with were people that you would be prepared to marry, it would fix a lot of downstream problems, because, uh, the alpha widows, uh, phenomenon. Have you heard of this?

    8. KDKatherine Dee57:08

       Yes.

    9. CWChris Williamson57:09

       Yeah. So the fact that, um, girls who will maybe get sex off a very high value man, but that man wouldn't get into a relationship with them, then deal with a skewed perception of their own mate value moving forward, which means that they're permanently going to be chasing down fucking Christian Grey as opposed to maybe setting their sights towards something which is more realistic for a longterm relationship.

    10. KDKatherine Dee57:31

        Those women are delusional for other reasons, though, because, you know, those, those men tend to make it clear pretty quick that they're never gonna commit. Um, and it's sort of like hope is the last thing that dies kinda situation with that. Um, so they, you know, they need ... It's, uh, if someone doesn't respect you, you probably shouldn't sleep with them.

    11. CWChris Williamson57:53

        A welcome realization that they might need. Okay, uh, don't date down

20. 57:56 – 1:01:40

    Why You Shouldn’t Date Down

    1. CWChris Williamson57:56

       to feel better about yourself. It's not fair to them, and it's also not fair to you.

    2. KDKatherine Dee58:01

       Yeah. Uh, a lot of people, um, date, uh, you know, even temporarily, like people who can be like infrastructure for their self-esteem. Um, and it's, it- it breeds resentment, um, and then it also ... I mean, I think that guys can kind, can get like alpha widowered, right? I- and that's way less discussed. Um, sometimes women just lead them on, but sometimes women, like will sleep with them one or two times, and it's just because they wanted to be with someone that makes them, that like reifies their own value to themselves.

    3. CWChris Williamson58:34

       Oh, because they would adore them so much that they would get-

    4. KDKatherine Dee58:37

       Yeah, I mean-

    5. CWChris Williamson58:37

       ... kind of emotional support.

    6. KDKatherine Dee58:39

       That's the moral of that short story from The New Yorker, um, Cat Person, that went viral in 2017. Um-

    7. CWChris Williamson58:45

       Nope. What is it?

    8. KDKatherine Dee58:46

       It- it- it was the most viral short story of all time, so like I, this isn't (laughs) I promise this isn't another random, um, preference, but, uh, you know, it's, it's a short story about this woman who sleeps with this sort of like slovenly guy. Um, and, uh, you know, she's, she ends up ghosting him, if I recall correctly. But sort of the moral of the story is like she sleeps with him because she sort of gets off on how much better she is than him. And this is something that's kinda missed in the story, and it's sort of treated like now as like this weird MeToo parable, but it's not really that at all. It's like women will date down thinking they won't get rejected, and also so they could feel adored. Um, but that's not always what happens.

    9. CWChris Williamson59:30

       Mm. Relationships shouldn't be a sporting event to see how much suffering you can withstand.

    10. KDKatherine Dee59:36

        (laughs)

    11. CWChris Williamson59:36

        It's not getting better. Leave while you can.

    12. KDKatherine Dee59:40

        Yeah, don't, you know. You don't wanna, you don't wanna be with the woman who calls you 20 times yelling at you, you know? It's, there's a, uh, Offspring song where there's like a lyric that's like, "The more you suffer, the more it shows you care." Nope. Like (laughs) absolutely not.

    13. CWChris Williamson59:55

        Well, people use, uh, pain or their ability to withstand something uncomfortable as a proxy for how much they care, right?

    14. KDKatherine Dee1:00:02

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:00:02

        I did this with my business. When I first started my business, I realized that, uh, if the business did well, that meant I was a good person, and if the business did badly, that meant I was like less of a person. But over time, I actually shortcutted or totally bypassed the performance of the business, and just went to, how much suffering did I endure during the preparation for this most recent club night that we did? And even if the event was successful, but I hadn't had a difficult week of work, I would somehow feel like a piece of shit, because the only way that this success was worth anything was if I'd bled in the process for it. And it's kind of, it feels like a little bit similar to do with relationships, that what you're doing is ... Well, actually no. I- I'm not sure that it is so much because, the reason that someone sticks about isn't even because they're getting that much out of it, if all that you're doing is, is permanently suffering. And I don't even know if it's more men than women that do this. I think that this is probably ...... sex equivalent, like sex balanced, with regards to whether men and women do this the most. Perhaps in different ways. I think that the guys will tend to treat the girl more like shit, whereas the girls would tend to be more overbearing on the guy and, and sort of more naggy. Uh, but I think the outcome ends up being the same.

    16. KDKatherine Dee1:01:21

        Yeah. And you know, I feel like people think they've invested so much time. Also, that's another, uh, component of it, um, like why leave now? Um, but yeah, just like putting up with... Like, anything that's going to end up with you feeling resentful when you're older is probably... You can't always predict that, but sometimes you can.

21. 1:01:40 – 1:03:17

    Does Body Count Matter?

    1. KDKatherine Dee1:01:40

    2. CWChris Williamson1:01:40

       On that point, there's a secular and wholly apolitical reason that body count matters. You start to get jaded after a while. Being spiritually run through is a thing.

    3. KDKatherine Dee1:01:53

       Yeah. You, y- people are very similar, um, and you experience the same thing over and over again, and it loses its specialness, right? It is... And it sort of has nothing to do with, like, you know, any religious reason or, you know, political reason, like, anything about, like, dirtiness or whatever, but you just, you run out of energy for people. Um, and y- you want to con- you want to conserve your energy basically.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:02:20

       I had a guy called Andrew Thomas on the show a little while ago, and he was teaching me about a study that they'd done, the optimal number of partners that people say they want their long-term partner to have. So if you could pick from 0 to 1,000, how many partners would you want your future partner to have? And the optimal number for both men and women is around about three to four for long term. Now, if it's short term, you get a slightly flatter... People are, uh, prepared to have the same amount. But zero partners was as, uh, desired as around about 11 or 12. So zero's too few. Three to four was optimal, and then it tails off back down to 12, which is around about the same as zero. I thought that was quite interesting.

    5. KDKatherine Dee1:03:04

       Yeah, 'cause I mean, you, you don't want to be... When you're an adult, you kind of don't want to be someone's first, you know, especially if you've met them as an adult. But too many, you're like, "Well, what's going on there?" (laughs)

    6. CWChris Williamson1:03:15

       Could be a bit of a red flag. Okay.

22. 1:03:17 – 1:05:22

    Durable Relationships Come From Shared Values

    1. CWChris Williamson1:03:17

       Uh, the most durable relationships are between people who grew up with similar values. This is something that I've seen time and time again with a bunch of my friends, especially from the UK. It's the people who have shared interests, similar sort of goals, a similar sort of worldview. I mean, one of the most, again, in terms of, uh, relationship satisfaction prediction, if you hold the same political b- beliefs, your relationship is way, way more likely to be successful, because downstream from that are a whole host of other things about the way that you view the world, the way that you view personal finances, how you should raise your kids, the way that you should own a home, your relationship to debt, your relationship to death, all that stuff. And, you know, if you do have incredibly different values, I... I mean, I can't think of any friends that are in relationships who do have different values and it's ended up succeeding. All of them, by design, have evolved to be in a relationship with someone that has sim- The only people that I can think of that have different values are ones that are going through a divorce or a breakup.

    2. KDKatherine Dee1:04:12

       Yeah. It's, it's super real. I, I dated... I married someone who was outside of my, my culture, like completely. And I mean, the things we would fight about were like, were wild. Like, neighborhood choice. I mean, it was just like every s- It would just... Diverging on things that I had never even considered.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:04:31

       Especially given how many different places there are that you could diverge on. All the idiosyncrasies-

    4. KDKatherine Dee1:04:36

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:04:36

       ... of you and your fears and your concerns, and the difficulty of trying to create a relationship together. And then not being able to agree on whether you should live near a park or an apartment, whether you want a garden, or whether you want to be in the center of the city, is going to layer on a lot of complexity that you probably don't need.

    6. KDKatherine Dee1:04:55

       Yeah, a- a- absolutely. Um, and it... That's a sort of a weird... I say values because, like in my case, it was like a geographic difference, um, that really impacted us. But, um, I think like it really does come down to values, because maybe you did have this... Like, there are cultures, right? Cross-cultural combinations that have similar values, and then those can work. But if it's too many differences, then it's, uh, then it's very hard.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:05:20

       If he texts you six months later and

23. 1:05:22 – 1:06:32

    The Problem with the ‘I Love You’ Text 6 Months Later

    1. CWChris Williamson1:05:22

       says he was actually in love with you, he's horny. If she texts you six months later and says that she was actually in love with you, she feels ugly.

    2. KDKatherine Dee1:05:34

       Yeah. (laughs)

    3. CWChris Williamson1:05:35

       That's just the support, I suppose, that where both men and women go to, what they fall back on. Uh, the number of... So again, some of the guys I used to work with would have, uh, 2:00 A.M., 3:00 A.M., and 4:00 A.M. broadcast lists on WhatsApp, and that would be for at what stage of the night they had got to, and you had decreasing quality, but increasing likelihood of reply from each of the different broadcast lists. And it would just be a "You up?" text that would go to all of them, and then it would... It's 2:00 A.M., hasn't worked.

    4. KDKatherine Dee1:06:10

       That's... (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson1:06:11

       3:00 A.M., let's try this next one. And then 4:00 A.M. was like, "Fucking hell, I'm gonna have to scrape the barrel here," and then they would send that message.

    6. KDKatherine Dee1:06:19

       It's the worst thing I've ever heard.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:06:23

       (laughs)

    8. KDKatherine Dee1:06:24

       (laughs)

    9. CWChris Williamson1:06:24

       Yeah, I mean, Club Promo is not exactly known for its, um, chivalrous, uh, dating behavior. Beware the woman

24. 1:06:32 – 1:07:31

    Incels are Right About ‘Emotional Tampons’

    1. CWChris Williamson1:06:32

       who wants to use you as a supporting infrastructure for her self-esteem. Incels are right about emotional tampons. Are you friends or are you a reliable source of male validation? I'd never heard of emotional tampons before.

    2. KDKatherine Dee1:06:46

       Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's a word from the incelo sphere. Um, and they, I think, weaponize it and say all male-female f- uh, friendships... Or not... You know, the... And the incel world is a huge ecosystem, many different subtypes, I don't want to generalize, but, um, you know, they think that, that the...Many women are just using men. Uh, and I think- I mean, I don't think it's all male female, uh, relationships or friendships, but you should be cognizant of it because there definitely are women who keep, like, harems of, um, men that they perceive as, like, low value to, uh, pad their self-esteem and to make them feel better about themselves.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:07:29

       One that's very obvious,

25. 1:07:31 – 1:12:05

    If You’re Drinking & Smoking to Have Sex, You Don’t Like it

    1. CWChris Williamson1:07:31

       "If you have to drink or smoke to have sex with them, you don't like having sex with them." I mean, the fact that this is even remotely useful wisdom, I think, speaks a lot to what Louise Perri's been talking about, which is this sort of disembodiment of women, specifically from having sex. That, you know, How to Sleep With Him and Not Catch Feels is a non-ironic title of a Cosmopolitan article where you're saying, "Okay, so I'll try and, what, like, switch off any psychological response I have to doing this thing in a desperate attempt to achieve freedom?" Which is, like, I don't know, working like my dad and having sex like my brother.

    2. KDKatherine Dee1:08:13

       Yeah. I- It- And it- You know, it's really disheartening because a lot of... And, you know, a lot of sort of contemporary relationship podcasts and stuff talk about women dissociating during sex like it's just some- like something all women share all the time. And of course, like, I think every woman, you know, will experience it a few times throughout their, their sexual history. But, like, to be regularly dissociating because you're that disconnected from your partner and you're doing it to pass the time or to please someone is, is, like, very, very upsetting.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:08:44

       Why do girls like shows like Call Her Daddy and stuff? Do you listen to these? Do you-

    4. KDKatherine Dee1:08:51

       I, I do.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:08:51

       ... do you resonate with them?

    6. KDKatherine Dee1:08:52

       I don't... No, I don't resonate with them. Um, I'm too, too much of a weirdo. (laughs)

    7. CWChris Williamson1:08:57

       But why do you think that girls like them? Because I, I don't-

    8. KDKatherine Dee1:09:00

       I don't think-

    9. CWChris Williamson1:09:00

       ... have a theory about it.

    10. KDKatherine Dee1:09:01

        I think a lot of men, I think a lot of men like them. I think th- um, some of us... I think, like, I listen to it just for pure entertainment and also to sort of just, like, check in with, like, different, uh, subcultures. I listen to a wide range of, you know, crazy stuff. Um, I mean, it is entertaining. I think for some women, um, it validates poor choices to, like, hear other people making those same choices. Like, Call Her Daddy was infamous for, um, uh... You know, they were, they were constantly cheating on their partners, um, and it was very, like, validating for women to hear other women talk about it so cavalierly, um, or, you know, sort of, like, uh, that mu- that level of casual sex. Um, but I do think a lot of men listen to those shows, um, because I find the ones where with more female audiences, even if they're that candid, they're just as... They're softer and less vulgar and... Or the type of vulgarity that they use is, like, more, uh... wouldn't be resonant to men at all. (laughs) That's-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:10:07

        I don't... I- It... I mean, I'm sure that this is probably how it feels for a girl to listen to Joe Rogan or something, but I've, I've given Call Her Daddy a couple of cracks and, uh, I, I don't really understand, like, where... It's kind of like a little bit of a different language. I don't understand a lot of the space, like, the cultural space that she's coming from. And she's unbelievably successful, but I would be... It, it would be surprising to me if there was a, a large cohort of guys that listened, but I'm being surprised by a lot of the things that we're seeing on the internet today, so maybe actually that's not that surprising.

    12. KDKatherine Dee1:10:41

        I mean, I wouldn't underestimate her appearance. Um, or, like, both of their appearances because there- you know, there is Soffia with an- you know, Soffia With An F is a new podcast, uh, for the other host. Um, I mean, they're both, like, very thin and very beautiful. C- like, could you imagine if there was, like, two fat women? Like, it just wouldn't... (laughs) You know, may- maybe it would be, uh, as popular, but it would be popular in a different, a different way and also a different scale.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:11:05

        Is there something about that, that, uh, if it's, uh, two hot girls talking about their failing forward through relationships, is this something that almost legitimates girls that see themselves, or their insecurities make them feel like they're not as attractive as those girls? So they go, "Oh, well, if this really good-looking girl can fail forward through relationships, that makes my piece-of-shit, car-crash of a love life feel like it's less of a big deal"?

    14. KDKatherine Dee1:11:30

        Um, maybe. Um, I, I s- I still think that the... I would s-... I'd be interested in looking at the, the audience demographics of Call Her Daddy. Um, I think the... I, I also think there's types of, uh, of hot girls that... Like, there is the hot girl that a girl would think is hot, and then there's the hot girl that a guy would think is hot. And I think that's actually a really, really useful distinction. Um, and I think the Call Her Daddy hosts were more like, uh, hot girls for guys and hot girls for girls.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:12:01

        Mm. Yes. I understand what you mean. Okay, last one.

26. 1:12:05 – 1:13:08

    People Giving Advice are Speaking to Themselves

    1. CWChris Williamson1:12:05

       "When people give advice, they're speaking to themselves as much as they're speaking to you. That doesn't mean their advice is bad, but it's important context."

    2. KDKatherine Dee1:12:15

       Uh, yeah. Every... I think, I think everyone who talks about lifestyle and culture, um, is talking to a younger version of themselves. Either they're trying to validate their choices or they're saying, "This is what I would have done if I had known better."

    3. CWChris Williamson1:12:30

       I think you're right. Uh, William Costello, one of my friends, says, "Research is me-search." And he's coming out-

    4. KDKatherine Dee1:12:35

       (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson1:12:36

       ... of the world of academia. But I do think that it's very much the same. You know, most of the people that I know, whatever they're interested in, it's because it's got some sort of relevance to them. It's questions that they're trying to work out themselves or whatever. Because, like, by design, what, uh, what person would be able to dedicate many hours per week or per day to writing about something, speaking about something if they didn't have some sort of personal curiosity?

    6. KDKatherine Dee1:13:02

       Yeah. You have to... You know, you have to have skin in the game.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:13:06

       Yes. What are you working on

27. 1:13:08 – 1:14:26

    Katherine’s Next Projects

    1. CWChris Williamson1:13:08

       next?

    2. KDKatherine Dee1:13:09

       Um, I have a lot- I have a lot going on. Um, I'm doing a project with my friend Nama Kates, um, about, uh, like, cyber dating. Um, we're, we're doing a podcast together called We Met Online. It's not launched yet. Um-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:13:25

       What's cyber dating? Is that where you don't meet in the real world?

    4. KDKatherine Dee1:13:28

       Yeah. Like, uh, you know, all, all things romance and the internet actually.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:13:32

       Okay. Cool.

    6. KDKatherine Dee1:13:33

       So it's much, much, much broader than just e-dating. Um, and I'm also working on a, um, book of art and, and short stories with 2D Cloud, uh, which is a really cool, uh, independent press that everyone should, should check out. Um, it's... Yeah. I have, I have a lot of stuff going on but those are the two, two most exciting ones.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:13:55

       Cool. Where can people go if they want to check out more of the stuff that you do and read your writing?

    8. KDKatherine Dee1:13:59

       Defaultfriend.substack.com.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:14:03

       Katherine, I appreciate you. Thank you very much for today.

    10. KDKatherine Dee1:14:05

        Yeah. Thanks for having me.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:14:06

        (instrumental music) What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:14:26