What Are Women Actually Attracted To? - Catherine Salmon

1. 0:00 – 0:21

   Intro

   1. CSCatherine Salmon0:00

      Years ago, they really tried to push the softer, gentler, kinder view of guys in romance novels, and they didn't sell well. And my guess is they didn't sell well because even if in your daily life, it might be easier to have a guy that would do whatever you wanted no matter what, that might not be what you fantasize about.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:20

      Did you

2. 0:21 – 9:44

   Why People Enjoy “Facial Deposits”

   1. CWChris Williamson0:21

      recently do a study about reactions to jizz on the face porn stimuli?

   2. CSCatherine Salmon0:28

      I did. I did do a study on that. In fact, I actually have just completed a follow-up study as well. (laughs) So, it's all about cum shots these days. (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson0:39

      What is? What's all about cum shots? Is your life all about cum shots?

   4. CSCatherine Salmon0:43

      Uh, not that my life is all about cum shots, I mean, but certainly lately, it has seemed to be the topic of conversation. (laughs) If you tell somebody you're doing that, that's what they wanna hear about. (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson0:54

      Okay. I- I want to hear about it. Please tell me everything.

   6. CSCatherine Salmon0:58

      Sure. I mean, part of the reason for being interested in it is because for a long time there has been, um, I think a lot of claims about the nature of pornography, um, that it's about degrading women, um, that, uh, y- you know, it has all these negative connotations, right? And there are a bunch of different researchers who've assessed this in different kinds of ways, but one sort of theme that has run through things is the idea that an external ejaculation that is deposited on the face is seen (laughs) as being degrading or seen in a negative light. And there's a number of ways that you could actually think about that. And a number of years ago, I read, um, a chapter in a book that made me really think about this. (laughs) And the chapter had a line in it about how what makes coming on somebody's body degrading and coming inside them sacred? And that made me think, you know, like, okay, that's not necessarily a bad point. Why do we have such a focus on it as being a negative thing? And what does it really mean that it is so ubiquitous in pornography that it's really difficult to find pornography, in fact, where you won't see a scene like that somewhere in the film? And so, we decided to do a study where we would actually show people, um, faces that had had deposits made on them and ask them about how arousing or how degrading they found those images to be and how much they liked the pictures. And we actually had subjects, not our own students because (laughs) um, our own students can be fragile, but we recruited adults from the general population to do this. And so, we had people look at, um, faces that we varied, right? So, they, some of them looked, well, they all looked at the same faces, but they either looked at faces that were male faces or female faces, right? We looked at... And so, because we were also interested in the sexual orientation of people and how that might influence this, so we had them look at male faces and female faces, and we also varied them in terms of their reaction. So, whether the person looked happy about having a cum shot on their face or whether they looked neutral about it, or whether they looked very unhappy about it. Um, and so as you might expect, um, from... if you have sort of a view that, that, that, uh, men like it when their partners are enjoying what's going on, men watching these images generally preferred the faces where the females actually looked like they were enjoying the experience. (laughs) Um, whether they were male or female faces that they were looking at, there definitely is also an effect of the preferred sex. So for men, straight men don't really like looking at pictures of other men with ejaculate on their face. (laughs) They, um, were not so happy with those. They were, their least preferred photo for them was the one, uh, with guys that had cum on their face. But homosexual men, actually, that was their favorite, um, photo of them. Not surprising, right? Um, for women, it was actually interesting, the women who... So, women in general didn't like the images as much, but for the women, if you looked at them across their sexual orientation, bisexual women actually liked the images a little bit more than either heterosexual or lesbian women, which was also kind of interesting and might actually have more to say about what shapes bisexuality, um, than, than anything else. But-

   7. CWChris Williamson4:38

      Perhaps some sort of openness to experience type thing, maybe.

   8. CSCatherine Salmon4:41

      Exactly. That it might be a sort of general interest in sex, um, and a more sort of sexual exploration kind of thing that, that's influencing that, and that's why they had those views. When you looked at the men, it was much more linear, uh, in terms of the relationship, um, in terms of like, okay, so gay guys' preferences were here, and straight guys were like, "Oh my God." Um, the women, it was actually, looked like a little top hat, so it was a little bit of a different kind of picture. So, um, and we were interested in other things too, like whether disgust sensitivity would play a role. If people are really worried about pathogens, maybe they would be less likely to like such images. And it did have an effect. Um, you know, in general, people who are very high on pathogen avoidance are not as keen on bodily fluids, uh, especially near the face. Um, and we also, um, found a few other things that mattered, including socio-sexuality, which shouldn't be surprising. In general, people who are more permissive in their sexual attitudes or more interested in short-term mating also enjoyed the images more. So we, for the most part, we found the sorts of things that we were kind of hoping to find, um, in terms of the results. Um, at least in terms of going back to that idea about what makes it disgusting or degrading versus sacred, it seems like...... somebody enjoying it makes it a positive experience, right, for the person. That was the biggest effect. I gave you partial di- what was the factor that had the biggest impact, was whether she liked it and what the sexual orientation was in terms of matching to the person that was the recipient. So-

   9. CWChris Williamson6:20

      What do you think is the difference between something inside and something on the face?

   10. CSCatherine Salmon6:27

       Um, well, I mean, I think there's good reasons for why in porn you put things outside (laughs) , um, even though they started inside. Um, it is largely because it's a real visual obvious sign. Like you know for sure the guy came because it's all over her face. Um, if he comes inside her, unless you're doing a closeup shot of, you know, some of it dribbling out, you're not really getting the same, you know, proof of ejaculation, I suppose. So, I think that could have some- something to do with why it's so ubiquitous. I mean, why it's on the face, I think there's probably... I mean, I think there's probably a couple different things, including that men like to look at women's faces (laughs) . Shocker, I know, but men do like to look at women's faces. And also, the face shows that it's an individual woman, like a different woman. And so, if men are often attracted to, um, novel women or a variety of women, spaces convey information about different- differences between different women, right? And that may also be appealing. Like, just, like, think about porn and seeing lots of different women being extra arousing as compared to just one woman that you might get used to.

   11. CWChris Williamson7:36

       I had-

   12. CSCatherine Salmon7:37

       So, kind of like the Coolidge effect.

   13. CWChris Williamson7:38

       Yes. I had Louise Perry on the show, A Case Against the Sexual Revolution, a couple of-

   14. CSCatherine Salmon7:43

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson7:43

       ... maybe a few months ago. She said in that a lot of women, she thinks, uh, sometimes misinterpret rough sex as being this, um, "I want you so much that I will do anything to have you," uh, Fifty Shades of Gray style thing.

   16. CSCatherine Salmon7:58

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson7:58

       I'm not sure whether that's backed up in the literature, and we can go into that in a second. However-

   18. CSCatherine Salmon8:01

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson8:01

       ... the same sort of, um, "I will overcome my programming around being gentle around women because this is how passionate you have driven me to be," by men, that seems to be at least part of a motivation that I could imagine maybe women have in the back of their minds, right? That there is something going on there. What I'm wondering with the cum-on-the-face situation is whether or not it's the s- kind of the same in reverse. This is something that's quite porcelain and sacred and beautiful.

   20. CSCatherine Salmon8:31

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson8:31

       It's something that women take great care of. And I'm so turned on by you that I'm happy for you to desecrate it.

   22. CSCatherine Salmon8:38

       Yeah, I mean, that could be part of it. I mean, I think... I mean, when we think about the things that people do together sexually, a huge part of it is doing things that your partner likes. And hopefully you both like doing the same things, right? That's gonna lead to a more satisfying sexual relationship over time. But I think that there are times when people may do things specifically because they please their partner. And if your partner really likes doing that, maybe you do that more often. I mean, there's also the question about how often people do that in their everyday sex at home versus how much they get off on watching it in pornography as well, right? I- I-

   23. CWChris Williamson9:15

       Logistically, logistically, m- a more difficult way to convene the- the end of your- your evening.

   24. CSCatherine Salmon9:23

       And a messier way, right? (laughs) Like, I mean, not everybody wants to-

   25. CWChris Williamson9:27

       Not everyone's got time to wash their hair.

   26. CSCatherine Salmon9:28

       ... you know. Yeah, exactly.

   27. CWChris Williamson9:28

       Not everyone's got time to wash their hair.

   28. CSCatherine Salmon9:30

       Exactly. You know? I mean, it's- it- I think there are just practicalities that make some things different in your everyday life that are different than in porn.

   29. CWChris Williamson9:38

       I would agree. I would agree.

   30. CSCatherine Salmon9:40

       Yeah.
3. 9:44 – 15:57

   What is the Psychology Behind Rough Sex?

   1. CSCatherine Salmon9:44

   2. CWChris Williamson9:44

      So, I found, the other day, an article by Pr- Patricia Sanchez in psypost.org, rough sex associated with novelty seeking but not aggression. Rough sex is usually associated with aggression, but new research published in EvoS Journal, The Journal of Evolutionary Studies Consortium, found that engaging in rough sex may be more indicative of novelty-seeking than aggressive tendencies. Rough sexual behaviors have been thought of as sexual aggression for decades, but recent research shows that rough sex may be more so recreational and consensual by both parties. Rough sexual behaviors have been shown to increase in situations that involve male jealousy and being separated from a sexual partner. This is in quotes, "While these analyses provide clues as to what motivates or triggers rough sexual behavior, several questions remain unanswered. Jealousy may be one motivator for men, but rough sex was reportedly desired and initiated by both sexes, so what the motivators are for both sexes, or particularly for women, remains unexplored." What are your thoughts on that, Catherine?

   3. CSCatherine Salmon10:42

      Um, my thoughts on it is that it sounds familiar (laughs) . Um, but I think there... So, y- you, in terms of the sort of unexplored, the what's driving women to initiate rough sex or to be interested in it, I think there could be a couple different things. One of them is actually what you were alluding to before, this issue about the idea that your- that a guy may want you so badly, be so passionately in love with you, that he is not as careful as he might otherwise be. And, you know, there's a long history of women finding that at least appealing in their fantasy lives. If you think about romance novels and bodice ripper romances, I mean, they're all about the guy not being able to control himself and- and, like, "I will die if I don't have you," kind of thing. Um, and the idea that somebody could be that incredibly devoted to you I think is appealing to women who are often very interested in commitment, right? And the idea that you would have that kind of power over another individual in that sense I think is appealing. So, I think that that could be part of it. Um, there's also, um, you know, been this sort of idea tossed around that it could be similar to, um, what we see in some other animal species where females will, um, require males to demonstrate their own sort of physical prowess-... us. And so, my favorite example when talking about it with students is what we call the bump test. And so this is something that happens in gladiator frogs. And so gladiator frogs will approach a female frog, and she will actually be aggressive towards him. And if he runs away, she won't mate with him. But if he's pushy back, then she'll actually have sex with him, right? So, she's, like, selecting for sort of aggressive and physical strength on the part of the male frog, right? And so there's this idea that maybe females are doing that, you know, unconsciously in humans sometimes, and they may be initiating this because they actually are, you know, taking some sort of reward or pleasure in testing male ability to demonstrate their strength, right? In the same way that women might wa- enjoy watching men compete in different kinds of physical sports, um, because again, it's sort of showing off prowess.

   4. CWChris Williamson13:02

      That makes sense. It's the closest, I suppose, that a woman could get to experiencing a man's physical strength kind of all, uh, brought to bear on her.

   5. CSCatherine Salmon13:11

      Yeah. Yeah. I think it's like if you imagine the sort of, the kinds of, some of the kinds of things that are, that, that are in that assessment of rough sex, right, it would include things like wrestling, right? And sort of that kind of play fighting and overpowering kind of thing. And yeah, it is th- it's typically going to be the closest thing that you would experience to that. And so it is a way of sort of trying to assess that, and in a playful way, not really a threatening way.

   6. CWChris Williamson13:36

      Hm. What about the novelty-seeking but not aggression thing?

   7. CSCatherine Salmon13:39

      Yeah. Well, so that was mostly looking at sort of motivations and the idea that just sort of trying new things, openness to experiences associated with it. So, in the study, there were a bunch of different questions that asked them about what kinds of things and experiences do you find associated with your experiences of rough sex, whether it's a male or a female initiating it. And one of the things that popped out was this idea about trying it because it's something different, it's something new, we were bored, um, you know, we saw it (laughs) in a movie, (laughs) you know, different things like that being indicators. And it was correlated with a bunch of other things that are associated with novelty-seeking, like having sex in public places, um, engaging in, um, sex with sex toys, things like that. So, it seemed to be more about novelty than about aggression in terms of, like, having negative feelings about the person that you're being aggressive towards. Um, and the one, sort of one that, that was also in there that, that, um, that we talked about that is, i- it's interesting because it kinda has a little bit of overlap is this issue about sexual jealousy, that when men may be experiencing sexual jealousy, they may be more likely to engage in rough sex. And in particular, the rough sex was actually just being rougher during the sex act, thrusting harder, um, penetrating further. What was interesting about that is that the women (laughs) reported experiencing a shorter duration to orgasm when they engaged in that kind of sex. So, I mean, it could be rewarding for the women because it's actually maybe extra arousing, maybe providing better stimulation.

   8. CWChris Williamson15:25

      How did you study the- that?

   9. CSCatherine Salmon15:29

      (laughs) We asked people. We didn't-

   10. CWChris Williamson15:30

       Right.

   11. CSCatherine Salmon15:31

       ... like, have them come into the lab and tell them, "We want you to have sex like you really mean it." (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson15:36

       You've got a- you've got another half an inch out of it there. You've done very well.

   13. CSCatherine Salmon15:39

       (laughs) Yeah, we did not do that. Although, it would be fabulous if somebody did do that (laughs) kind of study. But no, we did not. We were asking undergraduates, so we did not have them come in and engage in activities.

   14. CWChris Williamson15:54

       S- glad th- that you didn't have to go through that.

4. 15:57 – 29:02

   Why So Many Niches of Porn Exist

   1. CWChris Williamson15:57

      So why, why is it that there are so many varied niches for porn and what turn people on? Why are humans sexually not more simple?

   2. CSCatherine Salmon16:08

      I actually think that we're not really as complicated as we (laughs) , we think we are. I think there's two things, there's two ways of looking at it. In some ways, yes, there are lots of different genres, but there are also tremendous similarity between genres. Like, if you think about the bodies of people in porn, the majority of them are quite similar, right? What we find attractive in men and women is actually, in that sense, not that variable. I think where you see the variation is in what I would call, like, individual differences (laughs) in people's porn preferences, where people may find, um, uh, you know, particular aspects of individuals exciting or exotic. They may find different positions exciting and exotic. And there are also differences in people, and again, we don't necessarily know that much about what shapes them, but, like, in preferences for things like, say for example, BDSM, right? So that you have categories that are designed to contain activities that will appeal particularly to people that are interested in that. And I mean, Pornhub is a great example of that when they, you know, allow you to choose from all of these different types of genres. Do you wanna watch threesomes? Do you wanna watch, um, you know, solos, y- you know, ones? Do you wanna watch BDSM? Do you wanna watch gay? Do you wanna watch straight? Do you wanna watch orgies? Like, what is your flavor of the month? And they give you that kind of opportunity to try that variation. And I think some people have tried to make some little inroads into figuring out what kinds of factors shape some of these preferences. Um, a number of years ago, um, Marianne Fisher and Becky Birch and I published a study where we were looking at how people's, um, um, sociosexuality as well as, um, their inclinations towards infidelity-... might shape their porn preferences and looking at whether or not they were more likely to, um, you know, prefer threesomes or different kinds of orgy scenarios. A- and we did find small but significant differences where people who had actually scored higher on a measure of inclination towards i- in- uh, infidelity, as well as people who had actually cheated on a partner were more likely to like group sex scenes in their porn. They watched those kinds of movies more often.

   3. CWChris Williamson18:35

      Interesting.

   4. CSCatherine Salmon18:36

      So-

   5. CWChris Williamson18:36

      What about women, like with porn?

   6. CSCatherine Salmon18:39

      Hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson18:39

      That seems to be just a big mystery as far as I can see. What, what, what porn do women watch? Do they watch porn?

   8. CSCatherine Salmon18:47

      Well, they don't watch as much porn as men do, right? And again, I think there's an interesting question about whether there are differences between women who prefer their porn erotica, whatever you wanna call it, their sexually explicit material to be visual versus they wanna read it, right? Because there's tons of, um, everything from romance novels to Fifty Shades of Gray to all sorts of different kinds of erotica to slash fiction online. I mean, all of this stuff is all largely directed, you know, towards women. Some of it is very sexually explicit, but it's not visual in the same way. So, I think the interesting question in some ways, one of the interesting questions for me about women is what, what makes some women more visually oriented and some women more interested in reading about their porn. And it might be as simple as, like, you know, prenatal testosterone exposure or adult circulating testosterone. It might be that women that are slightly masculinized in that way are more visually oriented, um, and so would prefer to watch it rather than read about it. But it's very clear that lots of women are interested in it and it just sort of tends to break out into this difference between visual versus, um, written. And, um, a number of years ago, I think I reported in a study that was looking at just, you know, top erotic sites that men and women were, were going to online, right? And so of course, for men it was all visual, right? The top five sites, they had millions of viewers, you know, all visual. For women none of the top ones were visual. They were all either, like, romance novel, um, authors' websites, Harlequin's website, and then Archive of Our Own, which is the big fan fiction, um, website. And so they're reading their porn, I think, more of them anyways are reading their porn than watching it.

   9. CWChris Williamson20:38

      For the last six years or so, five or six years, I, apart from during COVID, I have gone to a, uh, dark romance, uh, book convention-

   10. CSCatherine Salmon20:53

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson20:53

       ... uh, in America. I spent a number of years on the front cover of a bunch of these books. I've been flown out by authors and a few other bits and pieces. So, my exposure to this world is, um, uh, deeper than you might expect. And given that, one of the questions I've always had in the back of my mind is in a world that is being dominated by TikTok and YouTube and video c- consumption, what are women getting out of erotica-

   12. CSCatherine Salmon21:21

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson21:22

       ... that they can't get out of video?

   14. CSCatherine Salmon21:26

       Hmm. I think, well, so I don't know that it's necessarily that they can't get it out of video, except that for the most part we're not producing as much maybe that appeals to them for various reasons. Um, but I think that they, they... I, I don't think it's that they could not, right? I mean, if you think about, um, movies that were erotic or romantic in various ways that, that women liked, Brokeback Mountain was a great example of a movie-

   15. CWChris Williamson21:58

       Did women like Brokeback Mountain?

   16. CSCatherine Salmon22:00

       Women loved Brokeback (laughs) Mountain, but it was a romance and it had two hot guys. And so, you know, uh, there were a lot of women that liked that movie. Um, and so I think, a- and women who wrote fan fiction about that (laughs) movie. And so I think you can get it out of the visual, but part of the problem is, is again, I think for women, um, a lot of what seems to go into, and this is one thing that books can do better I think sometimes than, than visual media can, is because so many women, and this is not all women and it's not all women all the time, but because so many of them, part of what's interesting to them about erotica and romance and all those kind of stuff and sexual relationships is the long-term commitment aspect of things with their ideal guy, right? There's a lot more than the visual that's important to that, right? There's all this information about who he is and who they imagine he might be. Um, and so yes, you can do that in a movie if you have a five-hour movie or you can, you know, watch Lord of the Rings and imagine your context for one of the guys or Marvel or whatever. But when you read a novel, you get all of that information. So, if you think about erotic or romantic novels for women, they're partially a story about finding long-term mates that are women's fantasy partner. Um, I think that that's a lot easier to do in a book that will appeal broadly because you c- th- the story appeals to most women. Um, the features of the individual men and women in it, or men and men or women and women, depending on your interests, um, might be very unique to different women. Like, maybe you find a particular actor attractive or you don't, right? And so the movie might not work for you if you just happen to not, like maybe you're somebody who doesn't like Brad Pitt, so watching him in a movie isn't gonna work for you. Um, but maybe Zac Efron will or whoever, right? Like, there's gonna be that variability. So, I think there's more challenges with the films-... than there would be with stories. Although it's interesting to take that and then say, "Well, why is fan fiction so popular?" Because they have the image, but of course, they select for guys that they find attractive and then read fan fiction that is about those characters that look the way they want them to look, and then they can fantasize about those kinds of relationships. Um, but I- I'd be curious actually in some ways to know about your experience of interacting with women at that kind of a convention, having been the cover model, because they often have quite significant fantasies about those characters, and that must have been interesting (laughs) to deal with.

   17. CWChris Williamson24:47

       It was... It's been int- All, however, five or six times that I've been, and then I, I'm on another bunch of covers, and then I go back and I'm on different books and a, a different story and a different character and different women come up and say hello. Uh, it's very, very interesting. I have to say, m- my mum, my mum asked whether she could get a copy of one of the books, and I refused, I refused to give it to her, um, because I don't think she quite knew what she was getting herself in for.

   18. CSCatherine Salmon25:14

       Hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson25:14

       And given the fact that I was on the cover, I felt, uh, uncomfortable, to say the least, about, about passing that on. That being said, the, the women that write, 'cause I- I'm more experienced around the authors than I am around the readers, although most of the authors are also fans of other people's work. Uh, they take the story writing stuff very seriously.

   20. CSCatherine Salmon25:34

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson25:35

       And, I mean, these books are, they're bestsellers acro- USA Today bestsellers and all sorts of stuff. One thing that I thought, uh, as you were talking there about why it is that women prefer erotica, I'm going to guess that there are relatively few stories in which the male protagonist gets switched out multiple times, because that would reflect women's, uh, lower desire for sexual variety.

   22. CSCatherine Salmon25:58

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson25:58

       So, what that suggests is that it isn't about the erotica bit of erotica. It's about the commitment of a presumably high value, high status powerful man-

   24. CSCatherine Salmon26:08

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson26:08

       ... who is able to girdle the world around him and break down doors and do the things in order to get the woman that he wants. But if it was simply about the erotica thing without the investment, without the long-term mate value stuff, why, why wouldn't each chapter just be, "It was David and Matthew and Jonathan and..." Like, why wouldn't she just... Precisely for this reason, that it is that investment.

   26. CSCatherine Salmon26:28

       Right. Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, when people say that women's erotica is more often focused around that long-term mating strategy, I think that that is, to a certain extent, the case, and it is also why there's a challenge with pornography. Now, that doesn't mean that all women are always interested in long-term mating and only reading about that, right? So, there are certainly women who are gonna enjoy pornography, um, and they may be women who score higher in sociosexuality, right? They may be more interested in short-term mating. They may be in a life phase when they're more interested in short-term mating. And that might be something that influences it. I mean, the other thing that would be interesting, and I haven't seen anything where somebody's looked at this, would be to look at... I- if you look at Pornhub's data, it suggests that there are actually differences in the percentage of women that consume pornography across countries. And it would be interesting to know if that is about cultural acceptance or whether it is actually about, you know, differences in mating strategies in different kinds of populations.

   27. CWChris Williamson27:28

       Was it, was it Indonesia or somewhere that had a surpri-

   28. CSCatherine Salmon27:32

       Yeah. I think it was the Philippines.

   29. CWChris Williamson27:33

       Philippines, that was it.

   30. CSCatherine Salmon27:34

       Yeah.
5. 29:02 – 35:55

   Is there an Agenda Towards Feminine Men?

   1. CWChris Williamson29:02

      another thing. Here's another thing that I've considered more, especially given my, uh, uh, deep experience with the dark romance genre. The characteristics that I see on... And I, uh, at these events, there's been thousands of fans, right?

   2. CSCatherine Salmon29:16

      That's true.

   3. CWChris Williamson29:16

      And hundreds of author stalls.

   4. CSCatherine Salmon29:18

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson29:19

      And I walk around and I have a look at the stands. And a lot of the time they've got those pull-up banners and the book covers and the photographers are there that have taken them and every single one of the guys that comes out that I was seeing, some from Philadelphia and some from Miami and whatever, whatever, everyone's built the same, right?

   6. CSCatherine Salmon29:36

      Yes. (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson29:36

      Everyone is strong jaw, everybody's lean, everybody goes to the gym. Now there's different, you know, there's a dude with long hair, there's a guy with a beard, there's a guy that's more like a lumberjack, there's one that's... Whatever, whatever, right?

   8. CSCatherine Salmon29:46

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson29:48

      At the moment, it seems like a lot of women are applauding significantly more feminine men in popular culture, ones that are much more agreeable, ones that are much more submissive. You had Harry Styles being a sex icon wearing a dress not long ago on the front cover of a magazine.

   10. CSCatherine Salmon30:03

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson30:04

       Why aren't those sorts of guys... There's also, just to add on that, there's another element, um, the Gen Z TikTok sort of...... almost, uh, androgynous, not quite androgynous look but super femme guy at 18.

   12. CSCatherine Salmon30:20

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson30:20

       In fact, I think I saw a study very recently, that you may have seen as well on Twitter, that had the two highest rated men on Tinder in the world.

   14. CSCatherine Salmon30:29

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson30:29

       One of them looked like the front cover of a dark romance guy and the other one looked like Harry Styles on the front of that thing. What is it that's causing erotica to not have... Is it shorts- short term mating queues? That doesn't seem right-

   16. CSCatherine Salmon30:41

       (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson30:41

       ... because we've got this long-term investment. Why is it that publicly we're getting pushed a much more submissive, much more agreeable, much more feminine man, and yet it seems, in erotica, like real preferences, stated preferences, why do they seem to be diver- diverging?

   18. CSCatherine Salmon30:56

       Yeah. I mean, I think that i- in a sense you kind of captured it with the pushing (laughs) aspect of it, right?

   19. CWChris Williamson31:03

       (laughs)

   20. CSCatherine Salmon31:03

       Like that there's-

   21. CWChris Williamson31:03

       Okay.

   22. CSCatherine Salmon31:04

       ... there is a, there is a, uh, you know, there can be a social agenda in not maybe wanting men or at least not wanting some men to be more aggressive. Um, and we often see, sort of like, at least recently, a sort of, like, negative view of masculinity in general, right? Like, this idea that, well, masculinity is toxic or that, you know, men need to be different, um, which also doesn't really jive well with the view that some people have that men and women are not different. It's like, well, if they're not different then why are you worried about this? (laughs) Aren't you worried about toxic femininity? (laughs) Um, I mean, it is an interesting question, but I- I think the- that- that, you know, uh, as you point out, if- if- if the point of that kind of erotica is to fulfill the fantasies of women, the fantasies of women are not about generally men that they can push around. They're about men that are useful if the world comes to an end. (laughs) Um, it- it's- it's the things that- that historically and ancestrally women valued in men. Is he gonna be a good provider? Is he a good protector? Is he gonna, you know, take care of my kids? Is he gonna give my kids good genes that are gonna make them strong?

   23. CWChris Williamson32:21

       What would y- what would you say-

   24. CSCatherine Salmon32:22

       Like, all of those things are the ideal of the cover.

   25. CWChris Williamson32:24

       ... what would you say to the women that are saying to you, "Well, Kathryn, you know, those are- that's a- a old, antiquated view of what women want from men. Have we not transcended that now in the new world? You know, I don't- I- I'm perfectly happy if my boyfriend decides to paint his nails and wear pearls and- and- and put a dress on. This is- this is something now where I- I- I don't think that you're up with the times here."

   26. CSCatherine Salmon32:50

       Sure. I mean, I would say that, you know, whatever floats your boat, right? Like, I mean, if it works for you for your partner to be like that, that's also perfectly fine. There may be variation between women in that. But years ago, they really tried to push the softer, gentler, kinder view of guys in romance novels and they didn't sell well. And my guess is they didn't sell well because even if in your daily life it might be easier to have a guy that would do whatever you wanted no matter what, that might not be what you fantasize about, right? I mean, if we think about what- what- what is really appealing to us. In the same sense that, of course, you know, men may fantasize about women that they would never get in real life, right? If you think about the reality of things, if you're an unattractive male who, uh, is older and doesn't have any resources, you know, you're not gonna get the average porn star, but that doesn't mean that that's not what floats your boat.

   27. CWChris Williamson33:53

       So is- it- it is almost a kind of, not t- not short-term mating strategy thing, but i- i- it is a- an object of sexual desire that may not match up with what you would want as a long-term partner. There may be some differences there that women have.

   28. CSCatherine Salmon34:06

       Well, maybe- might be what- what you might want, but also might not be what you can get, right?

   29. CWChris Williamson34:12

       Yes. Oh. Yeah.

   30. CSCatherine Salmon34:12

       As well. I think that that's part of it, because I think that every girl who goes to a romance novel convention would be happy to have one of the cover models go home with her, uh, and stay there. (laughs) Um, but, you know, there are also, you know, there are pros and cons to highly masculine men, right? I mean, and there's often been this debate about, um, you know, when you look at- at even the hero in the romance novel, I mean, he's a very manly guy, um, but there is that- that issue. Is he a cad or is he a dad? And even when he starts out as a cad, he usually (laughs) ends up as a dad. That's not always the way it is in real life, (laughs) if- if- if you find that guy, right?
6. 35:55 – 46:52

   Women’s Obsession with True Crime

   1. CWChris Williamson35:55

      Second one, true crime for women.

   2. CSCatherine Salmon35:58

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson35:58

      Why are they obsessed with learning about murderers? I would love to see it. I know that true crime, I think, is the single biggest podcast category that- that exists.

   4. CSCatherine Salmon36:08

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson36:08

      It's the number one. Society and culture, which is what this show is in, is the, uh, most competitive in terms of...... shows, volume of shows, but in terms of plays, true crime. Think about the first one that ever came out that really broke the entire world with this was Serial. You've had Up and Vanished, you've had all of, you know, (lips trilling) an endless list of them. And then all of the true crime documentaries that you get, that get served to you on Netflix and so on and so forth. What is a woman's obsession or women's obsession with crime and murderous stories?

   6. CSCatherine Salmon36:38

      So, that's an interesting question, and it's actually been one that I've been kind of interested in. And in particular, I'm kind of interested in why women, um, because I'm interested in how pop culture can be used to study, um, uh, you know, human behavior and, and sort of our evolved psychology. I'm, I'm particularly interested in why women are so fascinated with serial killers, right, in particular. And you think about the popularity of shows like Dexter and the number of women that, like, really liked Dexter, and it's like, that's interesting because in general, we think of women as being very crime averse, very crime avoidant, try to avoid people who are really violent. Um, and so there may be a number of things going on. I mean, I think there may be some truth to the idea that people are fascinated with crime because they want to learn how to avoid being victims, right? That that can certainly be part of it. I think that for some women, there may also be a fascination with the idea of some men being, like, the apex predator, right? That if you are in a dangerous environment, what better man to have by your side than the apex predator, right? Because nobody else is going to threaten him or the things that, that, you know, belong to him. Um, I also think it's kind of interesting because, of course, you know, if you really imagined, you know, Dexter as a serial killer, he's not a very traditional serial killer psychopath because, of course, he has emotional attachments and things like that. And but maybe that's why he is so extra appealing for women, because they want the predator, but he still has to be devoted to her, and those two things often don't really go together. But there might be something very appealing about imagining that they could. Um, so, I mean, I think part, like, I think there may be dual functions. Like, part of it may be the functionality of trying to understand a phenomenon so well that you are never the victim of it, and some of it may be that, you know, if you live in the jungle, you want the predator to be with you. And there is some data that suggests that women that live in more dangerous environments do prefer more aggressive men. Like, they h- their mate preferences shift a little bit. Um, I'm trying to remember, it might have been, uh, Dave Navarette and some of his colleagues that did a study that, that looked at this. So, the women, for example, who lived in more dangerous parts of inner cities valued, if they were asked to value different traits, valued physical prowess and aggressiveness more in males. But it may have been more useful to them in that environment. Which again, can also bring us back to that issue about the masculinity of males, right? If you live in a really benign world, maybe you don't need some of those really aggressive masculine traits as much as we might have living on the Africa savanna or early on during human history. Um, they may be less relevant today. And is, and so I guess in that sense, when we think about mate preferences, I mean, it's not that they're fixed in stone forever. Evolution continues, right? Um, and sexual selection continues. And it may be that at some point, we live in such a benign world that, that, you know, some of the masculine traits that we've often admired, um, that the women who go to boxing and MMA clearly admire, um, that those traits aren't as essential in women's mate preferences. But I suspect that the world probably isn't going to get that benign because it does seem to be sort of shifting around a lot right now in ways-

   7. CWChris Williamson40:07

      Gets spicy every so often, yes.

   8. CSCatherine Salmon40:09

      Exactly, exactly.

   9. CWChris Williamson40:10

      I always, this, this is the interesting thing about the, uh, proselytizing around how feminine men that are more submissive and agreeable would be exactly the sort of man that I want to be with. It's that revealed versus stated preferences thing again. You know, the woman that... Do you remember when Tom Holland, uh, and Zendaya announced that they were in a relationship and she's maybe five inches, uh, four inches taller than him. And it was a bunch of articles that said, "It's now time for men to get over their fear of tall women."

   10. CSCatherine Salmon40:44

       Yeah, I mean-

   11. CWChris Williamson40:45

       Come on now. Come on now, press. Come on now. Come on now.

   12. CSCatherine Salmon40:49

       It's, it's easy if you're Tom Holland too, because, I mean, he's fit. He's got lots of resources, you know?

   13. CWChris Williamson40:55

       My point being that, my point being that the people that wrote those articles that said it's time for men to get over them will date a man that's taller than them on average. Almost all of them will be. And the, the evidence seems to suggest, uh, women want to date a man that's 21 centimeters taller than them, and men want to date a woman that's 16 centimeters shorter than they are. So, you've got to, everyone's got to compromise, right? You can't have exactly what you want. My point being that there is a, uh, especially when it comes to mate choice here, because men tend to be the sexual protagonists, but women are the gatekeepers. Sometimes that gets flipped and it gets put on men about what it is that they're doing with regards to their mate choice. It's like none of the short men are not dating Zendaya. They, they, she hasn't been turned down by reams of short men up until she managed to find the one that was prepared to get with her that happens to be Tom Holland. So yeah, I think-

   14. CSCatherine Salmon41:45

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson41:45

       ... it's just interesting to see as we have a mating crisis kind of basically on our doorstep, ever increasing achievement, employment status for women, less so for men, hypergamy kind of shifting around and doing all of this stuff-

   16. CSCatherine Salmon42:00

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson42:02

       ... what, what is being pushed in the press and then what are those journalists-

   18. CSCatherine Salmon42:05

       Yes.

   19. CWChris Williamson42:05

       Who are you dating? Are you dating the homeless guy on the street? Are you dating someone that's six inches shorter than you? And I think just continuing to...... point out that hypocrisy is really important, because sexual desires and what we think we want gets mediated and filtered through the culture, right? It gets pushed through like that. And if the culture ends up being a- a LARP, if what you think is culture isn't, because you only see the smokescreen in front of you, your own, uh, sexual preferences can end up being messed up, which has wo- even further downstream consequences. I think, yeah.

   20. CSCatherine Salmon42:45

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson42:45

       If men look at, if men look at an article that says, "Women really want effeminate guys. Harry Styles is the way to go," and then find very little success in the dating market. And I don't even know, I don't even know how effeminate Harry Styles is in real life. Homeboy might be an absolute stallion as soon as he gets away from the- the camera.

   22. CSCatherine Salmon43:02

       Right. Right.

   23. CWChris Williamson43:03

       But...

   24. CSCatherine Salmon43:04

       Yeah. You don't know, right?

   25. CWChris Williamson43:05

       Yes.

   26. CSCatherine Salmon43:05

       You don't know at all. And so, I mean, I agree with you. I think, uh, and this is why, you know, I think in general, we should always be concerned with what- what is being pushed as the main narrative (laughs) in general, right? Whether it's a narrative in terms of- of sexual behavior and what people are doing or what people want or what people should want, because I think that's part of it as well, right? They're saying, "Well, you should... This is what you should want, that this is a better thing to want." It's like, "Well, well, why?" Right? Like, I mean, (laughs) it's like, almost like you're saying it's somebody's moral obligation to date someone that may or may not be what they find particularly attractive. Um, and I agree. I mean, it's problematic if you're giving people advice that's going to, um, you know, be detrimental to them in finding what they really want. Um, and, you know, I think it's relevant in that sense to- to the larger issues around dating, but it's also relevant to the incel issue, you know, that- that- that William Casella talks about. Um, you know, how do people know what the best strategies are? I mean, to me, I think that- that people need to think a little bit about, you know, it- it's not... So, I mean, as an evolutionary psychologist, I talk a lot about our evolved strategies, what was successful in the past, what has shaped the way we are now. That isn't to say that what shaped us in the past has to be what shapes us 100,000 years from now. There could be reasons for things to change. But I don't know that we have evidence that shifting things in any particular direction is beneficial or not. Um, you know, it would be like saying, "Well, we should have more masculine women. Men should date more masculine women." You know, it- it... Why would that be a good or a bad thing? I mean, in general, it's good to find a partner. So, maybe don't be so picky that you've priced (laughs) yourself out of the market across the board. Um, but people are attracted to what they're attracted to. And, you know, saying that, "Well, you should find this attractive," that- that isn't gonna make them find that (laughs) attractive, unfortunately, in most cases, right? They're attracted to what they're attracted to.

   27. CWChris Williamson45:26

       The market and sexual desire are two things that are very difficult to cheat.

   28. CSCatherine Salmon45:31

       Yes.

   29. CWChris Williamson45:31

       So, in my experience, this is the revealed and stated preferences thing all over again.

   30. CSCatherine Salmon45:36

       Mm-hmm.
7. 46:52 – 53:23

   Is Evolutionary Psychology Sexist?

   1. CWChris Williamson46:52

      what I think kind of an undertone that you can see here is that evolutionary psychology could be rather unpopular with quite a lot of people. I had Paige Harden on the show. About a year ago, she wrote The Genetic Lottery.

   2. CSCatherine Salmon47:04

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson47:04

      Paige is interesting because she comes from a left-leaning background-

   4. CSCatherine Salmon47:09

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson47:10

      ... but works in behavioral genetics, which is, I mean, that's chalk and cheese for you there.

   6. CSCatherine Salmon47:16

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson47:16

      And she- I see as she speaks that she's battling with some of these challenges. Talk to me about evolutionary psychology as it relates to feminism. Is evolutionary psychology sexist? Uh, can it be complementary of feminism in any way, do you think?

   8. CSCatherine Salmon47:32

      I mean, to me, (sighs) part of the problem and part of why those fields... I mean, you have people that argue that you can have, um, you know, a feminist evolutionary psychology. Um, there are lots of people who argue that it is sexist. There's lots of people who argue otherwise. I, to me, those- those terms and those definitions have become so politics- politicized, to me, they're almost completely devoid from, like, looking at the reality of people's actual behavior. I mean, what... I don't even know what it means to say that somebody is sexist other than if somehow they recognize that there are differences between the sexes now. Like, that's become sexist (laughs) is that men and women are- are different. And yet, clearly they are, otherwise-... all the women would watch porn and all the men would watch romance.

   9. CWChris Williamson48:23

      All the men would be at the Erotica Festival, yeah.

   10. CSCatherine Salmon48:25

       Yeah, and they'd, they'd be, you know, reading romance novels. And again, even if you say, "Well, you know, maybe the people who go to the romance, uh, conventions are just interested in, in looking at men so of course straight men aren't gonna do that." Well, the gay guys could all be going and hanging out and reading the romance novels. They're not doing that either, no. Okay. So, like, I mean, I think at some very basic level, there are differences between men and women. They were shaped by our evolutionary history. It doesn't mean that we're alien species, but it means that the problems that we face that were different, we evolved different solutions to. To me, that, you know... I mean, there are people who will say that's sexist. I mean, to me it's like, well, uh, uh, it's reality. I mean, I, I don't think that it's, um... and I don't think that's good or bad. It's just the way it is.

   11. CWChris Williamson49:12

       Yeah.

   12. CSCatherine Salmon49:12

       I, I guess that's the problem. So I... in, in a sense I'm dodging, I mean, I suppose the question-

   13. CWChris Williamson49:16

       Well-

   14. CSCatherine Salmon49:17

       ... because I don't think-

   15. CWChris Williamson49:17

       So that's-

   16. CSCatherine Salmon49:18

       ... it's relevant.

   17. CWChris Williamson49:18

       That would be, that would be the super recent within the last half decade to decade view of what sexism means.

   18. CSCatherine Salmon49:25

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson49:25

       But I think that you could take a broader view maybe over the last 30 to 40 years around feminism and around, um, preconceptions around women, their role in society-

   20. CSCatherine Salmon49:35

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson49:35

       ... uh, what it is that they want, senses of prescription, them being the ravished and needing a ravisher, stuff like that. Um-

   22. CSCatherine Salmon49:42

       Sure.

   23. CWChris Williamson49:42

       How, how do you blend those two together? Are they mutually incompatible?

   24. CSCatherine Salmon49:47

       Well, I mean, I think the... some of the sexual stereotypes that are involved in that sort of thing, like the idea that women are always submissive, I mean, people who bought into that clearly didn't interact that much with women. Because even when women are submissive, they're often running the show. So it doesn't really (laughs) , you know, translate again very much into the concreteness of things. But, I mean, to the extent that, that, that... uh, so here's, here's my take on some of that with the stereotypes. I mean, stereotypes come from somewhere, right? They don't... they weren't just created by the culture. I mean, these are things that were very common amongst groups of people. People make generalizations about them. They're not true of every individual, but they're true of many individuals. And so, you know, I think that, um, to the extent that evolutionary psychology explores those things and is interested in what makes or shapes people, yeah, some of that data is gonna support things like that and some of it's not. The submissive one has always been weird, because it just seems like i- i- women, th- the idea... women and men do different things and they may be interested in different things and people interpret that to mean sometimes that women are this and men are that. That doesn't necessarily, you know, imply submissiveness or dominance. Um, and there are women who want their man to be, I suppose, submissive to them but not submissive (laughs) to anybody else, right?

   25. CWChris Williamson51:17

       Well, that's, that's a very-

   26. CSCatherine Salmon51:19

       And that is the romance novel.

   27. CWChris Williamson51:20

       Precisely. Precisely. Yeah. That's the-

   28. CSCatherine Salmon51:22

       You know.

   29. CWChris Williamson51:22

       And I think, uh, increasingly you're going to see the... th- the reversal of what you see publicly in terms of the polarity of the bedroom is a lot of the times what people feel turns them on. I think you may see a lot more race play in the bedroom given-

   30. CSCatherine Salmon51:41

       Because you can't do it elsewhere. (laughs)
8. 53:23 – 1:02:33

   How Having Babies Impacts Sex Drive

   1. CSCatherine Salmon53:23

   2. CWChris Williamson53:23

      Another thing that I looked at was the differences in the chemicals emitted from babies' heads making men more docile and women more aggressive. Have you looked at this?

   3. CSCatherine Salmon53:34

      Oh, God. I vaguely s-... I saw something about that. I did not read the, the actual source of where it came from, but I read a story that was talking about that, which I thought was weird unless, you know, part of it is about maybe women if, you know, if they have babies, need to be more aggressive in the protection and defense of their own and maybe sometimes they're aggressive towards other people's, right? If you think about it as female competition, right? There's, like... in other animal species, sometimes females are not very nice to other females' offspring.

   4. CWChris Williamson54:08

      But you also have the alloparenting thing, right, as well. So it might-

   5. CSCatherine Salmon54:11

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson54:11

      ... cause women to become-

   7. CSCatherine Salmon54:12

      But it might... Right, to become either m-... like, to become more protective in the defense of their children and other children within the same group.

   8. CWChris Williamson54:21

      Yes. Yes, yes.

   9. CSCatherine Salmon54:21

      Right? Whereas for men, it should just make them all squishy so they're all dads instead of cats.

   10. CWChris Williamson54:25

       Please do not hit the child. Yeah. Do not damage it. Don't try and swing it around and, like, stop being such an idiot with it. Yeah. That makes sense. There was another thing I learned about... Will Costello told me this the other night when we were out for dinner.

   11. CSCatherine Salmon54:37

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson54:38

       ... it's, well, it's called like aggressive cuteness or something, where women are like, "It's so cute, I just wanna squish it." Like that kind of energy is actually-

   13. CSCatherine Salmon54:46

       Oh, pinching the face thing.

   14. CWChris Williamson54:47

       Yes, yeah. It's a, it's like-

   15. CSCatherine Salmon54:49

       Between the cheeks.

   16. CWChris Williamson54:49

       ... it's a really strange compulsion. Think about what that is, when it's this sort of overbearing aggression, but in a sort of a cutesy way. What is it that's causing the way, th- this neotenous little blob, to make people do that? It's such a weird thing.

   17. CSCatherine Salmon55:08

       I agree with you that that's a weird thing, 'cause I've never quite understood, like, I mean, I understand thinking things are really cute and wanting to pick them up and cuddle them, but the idea of like, "You're so cute, I'm just gonna like grab you." (laughs) Like that just seems to me to be disturbing in a weird, creepy way. And so, yeah, I don't know what is, I mean, I mean, I suppose some of it could just be like intensity of reaction and not having another outlet for it. I mean, women also sh-

   18. CWChris Williamson55:40

       Other than pinching the cheeks of the child.

   19. CSCatherine Salmon55:41

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson55:41

       Right. Okay, yeah.

   21. CSCatherine Salmon55:42

       I mean, they also shriek a lot sometimes too, right? Like there's that-

   22. CWChris Williamson55:45

       Oh my God. Sorry, did you see-

   23. CSCatherine Salmon55:47

       ... high pitched voice. Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson55:47

       Did you see, did you see that study that just came out about, um, why women scream when they see The Beatles and bands and stuff like that?

   25. CSCatherine Salmon55:56

       No, I didn't see that.

   26. CWChris Williamson55:57

       Right. Okay.

   27. CSCatherine Salmon55:58

       No. Bands?

   28. CWChris Williamson55:59

       Yeah. So-

   29. CSCatherine Salmon56:00

       So, it was just that, like is, was it focusing on excitement or...

   30. CWChris Williamson56:04

       Yes, I'm going, so I got it sent by Rob Henderson earlier on today.
9. 1:02:33 – 1:03:27

   Where to Find Catherine

   1. CWChris Williamson1:02:33

      ladies and gentlemen. If people want to keep up to date with the things that you do, where should they go?

   2. CSCatherine Salmon1:02:38

      Oh, um, well, they could go to my university website, UniversityofRedlands.edu and find me there. Um, and I also, if they're inclined to hunt down academic papers, ResearchGate is the best way. They can also email me at katherine_salmon.redlon, or @redlands.edu and I'm happy to respond to interested questions. (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson1:03:04

      Katherine, I appreciate you. Thank you.

   4. CSCatherine Salmon1:03:06

      Thanks very much.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:03:08

      What's happening people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:03:27