Modern WisdomWhy Your Brain Turns Your Partner Into An Enemy - Stan Tatkin
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
55 min read · 11,168 words- 0:00 – 1:36
Are Great Relationships Design or Desire?
- CWChris Williamson
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- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Thank you. [chuckles] Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, if I was to, if I was to try and summarize your worldview on relationships, allow me to step into your skin and wear it for a second.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
I would summarize it as love by design, not desire. Is that a fair... Like, it's thought not felt as relationships, that design versus desire thing. How far away am I?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
I, I think, um, I, I prefer earned love. Earned love on a daily basis by, by knowing how to hack the brain, uh, the neuroendocrine system, which we can talk about. By, uh, by, you know, uh, designing the relationship, uh, to protect feelings, uh, to enhance feelings, to, uh, to, um, uh, allow two different people under stress to maintain a collaborative and cooperative attitude. Uh, that is a hard get, um, because that, that takes a certain amount of planning, predicting and planning and preparing-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
... what could, what could go wrong between human beings.
- 1:36 – 3:36
Why Are Relationships So Hard to Navigate?
- CWChris Williamson
Why are romantic attachment relationships neurochemically so hard to navigate?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Well, they're hard because in the attachment world, if you, uh, i- if you understand or buy the idea of a primary attachment relationship. A primary attachment relationship is one that is, is tends to be dyadic. Uh, with human primates, we pair bond in herds. And the romantic adult, uh, primary attachment relationship is most like the earliest one, which is predicated on survival. So, uh, the attachment system is actually an existential, uh, you know, glue that holds us together. It's the I Can't Quit You biology.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
We confuse it for love. And because it goes back to the earliest, you know, uh, survival relationship, uh, that's why breaking up also is hard to do. That's why it has a very long memory, 'cause it reminds us of that earliest dependency relationship, whereas other relationships tend to not do that. So-
- CWChris Williamson
So we're reliving our childhoods, in a way.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Uh, we're, we're reliving our relationships, uh, how we felt with, uh, all of these important originals that we were around, um, in this relationship that we call a romantic adult relationship. But it is 12 and before. Uh, that is generally how I will think of it, is that we have the parents in our heads that we had around 12 and, and before that time. Even if our parents, and they do, changed a great deal for the better, uh, or for the worse, we still draw upon the, that earliest, uh, you know... 'Cause that's the root of our experience through thousands upon thousands of interactions starting from infancy post-womb.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
So, powerful.
- 3:36 – 9:50
Is Love Alone Enough to Make Relationships Last?
- CWChris Williamson
Is love enough to maintain a relationship?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Absolutely not. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
No feeling is, uh, 'cause feelings come and go. And besides, uh, who knows what your definition of love is. Uh, it may be very different than mine. And even if I were to describe my definition of love in action, my expectations of love may be quite different than what I say. So there you already have a problem. But if you're basing your life on emotion, which is like a rollercoaster, then your life is like a rollercoaster. So I think the smartest and the wisest, and the way that it's always worked in terms of long-term relationships between individuals of equal power, adults, uh, is that, uh, you have to have first a shared purpose, a reason for being in this relationship, not based on feelings, and a vision of where are we headed? What's the end point? Are we ride or die? Is it all the way till, you know, I'm wiping your butt, uh, you're wiping my butt in old age? Uh, you know, where, where are we headed, um, and why? What's the point of us? Who or what do we serve? Only purpose that's based on a selfish reason will carry the day because we're too, uh, unreliable as a species. Um, our species is, uh, notably, historically moody and fickle and impulsive and, uh, unpredictable, sometimes opportunistic, warlike, uh, xenophobic, um, easily influenced by groups and other people. So w- we're, we're not great over the long run, uh, in unions. Therefore, we have to a- a- account for going through time together, and that would be going through some changes. So we need an invention. We need a design from the ground up, which is a made-up thing, right? All relationships are made up. That would sustain us in the long run and would account for all of that wiggle room necessary as we change through time, right? Otherwise, uh, we're gonna, you know... We're not gonna make it somehow. Um, that's issue one. Uh, issue two is we have to understand the forces that push us around, namely our survival instinct. Because it's always on, and because this relationship is unlike any other on the planet because of its memory, uh, most like that earliest one based on survival. Uh, uh, it has a long memory, and we tend to be proxies for everybody who came before, right? We tend to... It's a very projective system. The chances of us accruing threat memory by getting things wrong based on memory and appraisal is 100%. And so if we're not really good at knowing and understanding how to minimize threat and stay collaborative under the most stress and pressure, we're going to accrue threat memory, which is a biological matter and eventually takes people down.
- CWChris Williamson
So you're saying we need to respect the biology-
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Oh, yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... by in advance having structures in place, uh, and principles that keep guardrails in, so that we're-
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Absolutely
- CWChris Williamson
... not relying on the, uh, ebbs and flows of how we feel.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Like any other, any other union of any kind that's professional, of any kind, we plan on our devils, not our angels, right? Couples plan on their angels, and that's a big mistake 'cause-
- CWChris Williamson
What does that mean?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Look, devils we are if the opportunity arises, if we're under enough load-bearing, if we're in enough pain or enough pressure, enough stress. Again, emotions. I... You know, if I'm going to behave according to how I feel, which is pretty much everybody on the planet mostly, then, uh, it stands to reason that we're gonna have a hard time getting along, right? And so, uh, th- this, this just has to do with predicting what could go wrong and planning for it ahead of time instead of just falling into it, which is what couples always do, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Couples don't predict, plan, and prepare for what could go wrong based on what has gone wrong. Nobody else does that. In medicine, we do, uh, postmortems, right? We... Let's not kill the patient again. Uh, and but couples don't do that. They just repeat, repeat. Uh, we predict what could go wrong in the police force, in military, in medicine, in science, in business. Couples don't do that. They just walk into the same situations live without being prepared. Uh, th- we would never, uh, involve, uh, get involved with a group of people if we didn't know what the culture was and how are we going to be protected from each other, 'cause, you know, we're animals. Couples don't have any, any governance, any way of protecting each other from each other 'cause they don't set it up. So couples are the only system, uh, only voluntary system of free, fair, you know, voluntary system, uh, of individuals coming together, um, of equal power and authority, at least on the face of it. It should be on- based on terms and conditions that do not have any of this, ever. And, uh, and that is why they're predicted not to last very long. Or if they do, one or both people are not gonna be happy. We're not gonna feel safe and secure because there's no social contract, uh, system of making agreements, uh, based on purpose, based on what is good. So say you both, we both, right? What is best, so say we both. Or what, you know, is right. Those are the three. And without that, it's gonna be the wild west.
- 9:50 – 13:16
Why Relationship Practicalities Can Be Romantic
- CWChris Williamson
Does that mean that discussing non-negotiables and practical things in advance and as early as possible is actually the romantic thing to do?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
It's [chuckles] ... Well, you, you don't put that into the ra- "Hey, honey, let's go out to dinner and have a nice, uh, romantic dinner and everything, and let's talk about, uh, if we have any deal breakers." Um, you could, I guess. It's not... You know, it's dual purpose. But a deal breaker is should be known ahead of time. Um, I want a baby. I have to have a baby. You hate kids, and let's get married. So that is what people do, and that's, like, not smart because that can't work. I want monogamy and you want polyamory. Well, neither of us are wrong. We have a right to want what we want and get what we want. But we can't do business together because that's gonna cause a lot of trouble. So those are deal breakers, big-ticket items that couldn't work because we're pointing in two different directions.
- CWChris Williamson
Having a specific shared purpose and vision is still important outside of deal breakers, I have to imagine.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Yeah. So if you look, if you look at the human condition and, and how people have sustained in groups, uh, groups don't stay together very long, or they don't get along with each other v- very well if they don't have a shared purpose for being together. You and I are gonna start a band. That's our purpose. We want to start a band. We want to... What, what is our goal, our vision? Uh, we want to get a record deal, at least initially. So if we didn't have that, we wouldn't have reason to hang together very much, and we would probably not get along because we tend to pick at each other if we don't have a shared purpose, right? Uh, that's if we're, you know, spending a lot of time together and a shared reason for doing this. Otherwise, we tend to otherize. We tend to pick at each other's differences. We don't, uh, we don't look naturally to where we agree and where we are the same. People who are consensus makers have to do that. But the average Joe, because of energy conservation, meaning, uh, you know, we're meant to do the least amount necessary biologically, all living things, um, we're lazy, and we won't do things that we should do 'cause we don't think we have to. So, uh, uh, this whole idea of, you know, we're in it to win it, uh, you know, we're a survival team, uh, we want to win, we want to make money, we wanna succeed, we wanna survive. Uh, um, all of these things are essential for keeping things on... keeping people on the path together and, and not paying attention so much to their differences. Otherwise, we fight. And when it happens in a country such as ours, that's when we see civil war or tribalization or a massive amount of splintering, right? 'Cause there's no more centralized sense of purpose that holds us together that's believable and, uh, and a vision, an American dream, right? And so it- things break down. Uh, so if that is true with all systems large and small, it goes to follow that a couple would be no different. If they have no shared reason for being at any given time, they're gonna fight, uh, or they'll drift, because that's what actually holds us together, yeah.
- 13:16 – 15:23
The Importance of Agreements
- CWChris Williamson
What's the importance of agreements?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Uh, that's all we've got to keep us from, uh, being harmful to each other. All we have is our pacts, our agreements, our social contracts. Uh, civilization's predicated on social contracts. Um, uh, the first laws of religion, even though it was, uh, a social contract with God, an Old Testament God that would reign in your bedroom forty days, forty nights if you disobeyed, you know, that was a powerful thing to get people to start to behave. It was the first, uh, way of getting people to stop, uh, harming each other, um, with the Ten Commandments, right? So everything is predicated on agreements. Otherwise, we, we go to war. We do harm. Um, uh, you know, we're... Like I said, we're selfish, self-centered, uh, uh, opportunistic animals. If we can get away with something, we will. That's, uh, that's in our DNA. Only norms and laws and principles and rules, uh, keep us from doing that and allow us to stay together in safety and harmony. Otherwise, we wouldn't. No difference with a couple. So they have to come up with this as well.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 15:23 – 16:56
You Don’t Have to Just Prioritise Your Partner
- CWChris Williamson
Why do we make the fundamental agreement to prioritize each other above everything else at all times?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
You don't have to. You could agree that ourselves come first, then you'd have to describe that to each other, define that. What does that really mean? Same with a relationship. What does it mean in practical purposes? If this happens, what would we do? If that happens, what would we do? Are there any exceptions to this? What could go wrong with this idea of putting ourselves first? Uh, what happens if, if this relationship crashes and burns? Um, we put ourselves first. What does that, uh, do for our kids? What does that do for our own health? So does it make sense? Well, maybe we put religion first. That's fine. But you'd have to think it through because you're planning your life, because your lives depend on this. How you're going to rule, how you're going to govern, what decisions you're gonna make is gonna be predicated on what is the highest priority, right? Otherwise, you're not a team. It'll be chaos when load-bearing hits. You're gonna, you know, be unprepared. So, uh, it's all practical, it's all tactical. It, it's not about, um, emotion. It's about what would be the best thing and what, what one thing must be protected at all costs in order for everything else to thrive. That's how to think of it, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
But it has to be defined, it has to be done judiciously because, again, it's no small thing. Your happiness, safety, and security, everything's predicated on your design.
- 16:56 – 28:06
How Memory Shapes Your Threat Response
- CWChris Williamson
What's the threat response based on memory?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Well, memory is, is, [chuckles] is a problem. We're memory animals. Everything we do is by memory. Most of our day is memory run. It's automatic. We're not thinking. We're not using energy-expending areas of the brain that use critical thinking. We save that for novelty. We save that for our work. We save that for other things. But so we're just walking through the day doing things automatically and reflexively based on memory. The, um, uh... Because of our survival instinct, uh, negative memory, negative experience is favored, uh, in memory because of we have to remember where we're hurt because of danger. S- uh, survival is at the top of, of our subcortical drive, right? It... And it does not, uh, it does not equivocate. It does not differentiate. Uh, you hurt me. If you didn't fix it right away and you do it again, then I'm going to predict you're gonna do it again and again and again, which you will feel attacked by. But that is me protecting myself. Uh, I'm using pattern recognition to sweep the environment for cues. And every time y- you repeat something or we repeat something that's threatening, the array of cu- threat cues that I'm looking for increase Naturally makes sense. It doesn't know the difference between you holding a gun on me and you, uh, you looking askance, uh, that I view as a judgment, as an attack, as a criticism, right? And so this becomes problematic if we're not careful, which is why there are ways to, uh, to prevent this from taking hold because it does have a snowball effect. It does-
- CWChris Williamson
It sounds like-- It sounds like it sensitizes your system over time.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Yeah. Has to because we have to survive. Uh, th-this part of our brain is lightning fast. It... I see it, I shoot it, and that makes sense. If y- if your sur- if your life depends on m- on making a, a quick decision and an, an, an action that protects you, uh, from a danger, it makes sense that this can be a problem in relationships because, uh, I will react very quickly based on my own narrative history, memory, and I will likely be wrong, and you will likely feel, um, threatened by my assuming, which you will then protect yourself and behave in a way that's threatening in return, and therein lies the problem with the human condition, why we're better at war. Uh, we're, we're just not great at relationships over the long run. So there are ways to remedy this if you know what you're up against. One is quick repair. Quick repair is a way to keep memory from going into long-term memory, where it's the gift that keeps on giving. And sadly, most people don't fix things quickly. They don't fix things. "I'm sorry. You're right. That was stupid. I shouldn't have done that. Um, I'm sorry. I love you." And then move on, right? Um, they delay it. They don't do it. Uh, they s- they apologize i-in the wrong way. Uh, and, and so the beat goes on, and this is why families lose their kids, uh, estrangement. That's why people get sued. That's why in the old days, people, you know, challenge each other a duel to the death, you know, because, um, we remember harm done. We don't forget it. The person who harms us does. But because of the adrenaline that's created, created when we feel misunderstood, hurt, uh, judged, uh, uh, something's unfair or unjust, uh, that, that, uh, creates a lot of juice to go into long-term memory unless you fix it right away, in which case it, uh, doesn't. So that's one of the main reasons to grow up and do what we invented. Uh, the reason we invented apologies, uh, amends, was to hold on to our relationships. And if you too want to hold onto your relationship with your kid or your, your spouse or your parents, then you gotta learn how to fall on your sword and only apologize, um, without equivocation, without qualification, explanation, uh, without any, any other qualifier if you know what's good for you. 'Cause that, in the real world, is the only thing that will relax another person. Uh, the only thing. And I have to apologize for what you think I did, not what I think I did.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Think how hard that is for us, 'cause we're so prideful. We think that we're always right, and that's not true, by the way. We're hardly ever right about much. And, um, but you know, it's our arrogance. It's our, you know, hubris to think that our communication was spot on. I heard you clearly. Um, I... My memory is great. [chuckles] My perception is, is correct. Yours isn't. And none of this I can prove. None of this is true at any given time. It's all false, and yet we'll die on that hill 'cause we're dumb.
- CWChris Williamson
It's so fascinating that intense negative experiences, if repaired quickly, have basically a completely different future ahead of them-
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... than ones that are left to fester. That if you're in a relationship which has regular rupture without repair, and especially without repair quickly, that makes... It's painful in the moment and more painful in the future and sensitizes your system to detecting this happening again-
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... even perhaps when it's not.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Which means that your worldview is going to appear increasingly deranged to the other person who needs to apologize based on your interpretation, not on their projection.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
It's vicious.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Which is-- Right.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a, it's a really badly designed system.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Well, it's, it's not designed, like I said, for... Remember we used to die at fif- at fifteen or thirty tops, right? We wouldn't live that long. We would pair bond for four years and then leave, and then, you know, mix up the gene pool. That, you know, that satisfied the, you know, the natural, the ways of natural laws and, and that. Nature's, uh, right? Nature didn't plan on us, you know, doing what we do today. We're on our own. Uh, that's why we have to invent our meaning. We d- we're not born into a world with meaning, right? Clearly, we're not born into a world where we get why we're here and how we got here and where we're going. That's the whole existential dilemma, right? It's the angst. You know, we're gonna die. We're alone. Uh, we don't know, uh, why we're here. Um, uh, and life has no meaning, right? Uh, that's very depressing. So we create meaning, right? Same thing. But meaning also involves governance. How are we gonna protect each other from each other? That is not by nature, right? We, we are predators. We're apex predators, as, as a matter of fact. Um, we're nice on a... when we're happy, right? You know? But you may not wanna be around us if we're unhappy. We're kinda nasty, unless and less There are norms, you know. Sweetheart, you know, my fourteen-year-old daughter, uh, you can be angry. You cannot walk around and destroy the atmosphere here for everybody who's in the house. That's a community issue, and you can't do it, so stop it, right? Um, uh, only that stops that kind of behavior. Um, "No, you can't do this. I know you wanna do it, but I'll show you you can't. Try, and I will show you you can't." And that, uh, gives rise to an idea that there are limits. There are boundaries. There are things you can and cannot do. But w- let's say I don't do that. Let's say I give in. Then you can get away with anything, right? 'Cause there is no God. I did that. It doesn't happen naturally. Um, you know, Lord of the Flies, you know. We're animals, and the off of the, the, uh, the product line, you know, uh, human primate isn't great. [laughs] You know? Uh, you know, civilization, y- uh, uh, you know, uh, over so many years of, of k- you know, building complexity socially, emotionally and, and, and, um, ideals and values and, and, uh, and, and morals, principles, that, that, you know, in, in the whole span of history, of course, it's a blip, but in our h- time, it's, uh, a, a long period to get here, and we're still a mess. Um, and so, you know, again, don't b- be naive. You are responsible for this relationship. No one else is. You're the only ones who are going to benefit and are also going to suffer if you're not, uh, an a- in alliance, right? If you're not working together, you can't work. If you're not able to work together as a two-person system of we and us interdependently having the same things to gain or lose, are you gonna survive this life, really, uh, with all the slings and arrows and all the, the things that happen and, and the indifference of others? Which, you know, just test that out. When the chips are down, people will be indifferent to your concerns. Um, and that's just the way it is. Uh, and so not knowing that and preparing is just simply not being aware and not being an adult and, and in reality.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 28:06 – 32:55
Why Your Partner Can Suddenly Feel Like the Enemy
- CWChris Williamson
I've heard you say that if you leave those memories to encode in long term for too long, you can end up seeing your partner more as a predator than a lover.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Yeah. The subcortical brain does not differentiate. It's not-
- CWChris Williamson
What's, what's happening, what's happening neurochemically in, in, uh, in, in the brain?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Well, the, the, uh, there's an intentional center. Uh, or, um, uh, the salience network in the brain is what causes me to, to look, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
You know, I hear a sound, and I look. That's the salience network that's directing me to what's most important at this moment, and there are other networks that are involved here that are fear-related, um, and threat-related that are involved in this one network. And so I, I begin to hone in on your face because you repeatedly do something that reminds me of something that makes me feel small and devalued, okay? You may not intend to do that, but your intentions aren't the matter here. Um, I'm picking up a threat memory, a cue from your face because I'm vigilant. Um, I've, I w- now have to look for this because I've been hurt too much. You feel attacked by it, but I'm simply taking care of myself. I don't control this. It is pushing me around. It's because I don't understand it, right? I assume that everything I'm picking up is correct. I don't check, you know. Are, are you, are you doing that thing right now? Right? I just, I just shoot first, uh, assuming you are doing it, and that's because these areas don't have an executive function. They're not meant to have an executive function, and an executive function takes time and resources. That is why that, that, you know, when we're relaxed, we have all oars in the water. We can think. We can error-correct. We can, we can think in a relativistic way and not in a, in a, in a, uh, dominant end way, right? I am certain. No, maybe you're right. But I'm relaxed. I can do that. As soon as my blood pressure and heart rate go up to a certain level, my brain changes. I literally don't have a capacity to do that because the executive areas, uh, demand a lot of resources to run, oxygen, glucose, and blood. That is now going to my striated muscles because I'm starting to get into fight or flight. I'm getting hyperaroused. And there's a brain change. I'm altered. I no longer care about your interests. And it takes very little, uh, this is, uh, Robert Sapolsky's, uh, work, not just, very little, uh, glucocorticoids coursing through my veins for me not to give a damn about you. And you lose me as an audience if you're not careful. Um, you don't even think I'm, uh, 'cause you haven't noticed you've lost me as an audience. Uh, I feel unsafe, therefore talk to the hand. I care only about my interests. You get nothing. That's how sensitive the system is, 'cause I've determined I'm not safe on a subcortical level. Now, I may not know this, but you will if you pay attention. I will know when you fall into, uh, out of safety because I'm watching you, if I am. Um, and that's why, you know, in each other's care is we're psychobiologically wired in close proximity to pick up social emotional cues faster from the other person than we are from our own bodies.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
That makes it, uh, that makes us primed for something called interactive regulation or co-regulation, right? Um, that's another kind of teamwork, but it's more autonomic. Anyway, so, uh, so, uh, it, it doesn't... You know, this is a very stupid part of us, but it's-- but we'll thank it because we dodged a bullet. Um, and, and so w- I have to understand that you and I have to talk to each other in a particular way. Otherwise, uh, you'll confuse me as an adversary, and this is what's hard about secure functioning. The formula really is, I have to take care of myself and you at the same time under stress, or you will confuse me for an adversary, and it will compel you to then take care of yourself only. Now we're one-person systems. We're no longer in a team sport. We're in a solo sport.
- CWChris Williamson
Does this explain how-
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
This all everybody. There are no exceptions to this, by the way. The-- all people.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- 32:55 – 42:17
Don’t Let Bad Memories Ruin Your Future
- CWChris Williamson
Does this explain how resentment accumulates in relationships-
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... and relationships start to look very deranged from both the outside and the inside?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Um, one of the greatest, uh, causes of anger, sustained anger is injustice, right? Uh, the other is helplessness. Um, uh, uh, and, you know, uh, right? And so a- any th- any system that's too unfair, too unjust, uh, and too insensitive can't last because it's unfair, unless it's an employer, you know, asymmetric relationship where I have to suck it up 'cause I want the job and I need the money. But in a, in a, in a equal system that's voluntary, that's voluntary, if it's not fair and just, um, and I'm getting the short end of the stick, you should keep your eyes open at night 'cause that never ends well, uh, in the human, uh, field, right? And so insecure functioning is too unfair. Uh, it's good to be king. Um, and I get things at your cost, not realizing that we're tied together psychobiologically. Anything I do to you is gonna happen to me. There's no decoupling that unless, unless this is an, an autocracy, unless I am the dictator. In which case, I still better keep my eyes open at night. But, you know, then I get to do everything. Um, and you have to do it. But that's not the reality of a free and fair union of equals in adulthood, right? The expectation is that it be fair. Whether people say that or not, it is that way. And that's universal.
- CWChris Williamson
How much can you prune those bad memories? How much harder is it to get over that once you've accumulated them?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
You can't get rid of these memories, and you don't want to because that'll happen soon enough. I'm seventy-two and starting to happen, uh, [chuckles] with names. But you don't wanna get rid of those memories. Um, the only way to change the past is to change the future. There's no other way. These, these neural pathways are weighted by repeats, right? We're repeating things, and that's the worst.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
This is the smart thing to do that we already know and couples don't do. One is I will apologize forever for harm done. That is the right and just thing to do. In the real world, that is expected. I don't get a free pass in memory, right? By saying, "I don't need to apologize, I did my time in prison," that's not ever gonna work. Same in couples, right? I will always apologize for what you feel I did, no problem. But let's put something in place, you and I, to prevent either of us from doing that again. If only we did that, we'd be great because we're doing the same thing. We're learning from the past, and we're creating a future that is different based on what we learned. Let's not do that again. Not you, not just me, either of us, 'cause we're human. We could both do this. So we found a place where we're vulnerable. Let's close that up as we go. But couples don't do that. They just walk right into the same thing again. Rinse and repeat, and that is deadly. You do not want repetition. It creates inflammation. Once that repetition start, it accrues. And sadly, I deal with couples that have been together, you know, sometimes twelve years, but, you know, often three yea- thirty years. And they're burdened not only by having to, uh, look back at all the resentments where they feel compelled to litigate the past-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
... just rehearsing the same thing that nothing comes of it And besides, memory sucks and they're gonna fight about memory. Um, um, they're, and they're not watching where they're going, so they're repeating. Um, uh, the other thing is that when they do try to work on the relationship, now memory intrudes on the present and puts the kibosh on the future. This is a big problem we're trying to solve.
- CWChris Williamson
How so? How does this happen?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
We-- You and I have been fighting for years and, and, um, we both complain of unfairness, right? And, uh, we, neither of us trust each other now because we did that, we did that, um, years of doing business poorly. Now we want to right things, right? And we go to, let's say, me or anybody who's pre- uh, proposing, let's design this thing from the ground up. Um, as we're doing this, one of us is going to go, "Eh, that's not gonna..." And they'll, you know... Why are you depressed? "Uh, because he'll never do this. I already know." And now I'm back because subcortically, I'm being yelled at. "Don't trust him. That won't happen." It's... Right? Why am I being fatalistic? Because I'm being warned on what has happened. It doesn't-- It has no interest, and I say it, this, these networks that are subcortical have no interest that we're working on something to improve it. Therefore, what is now causing us a big problem is that neither of us can forget as we're going forward. Going forward triggers the past.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
The past is always present.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
That's the problem.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
The past that we created.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
That adds a huge, um, neurobiological layer of difficulty. Think of this. Um, uh, you know, as, as numbers grow, it gets more difficult because of memory. Israel and Palestine, uh, Palestine, they cannot get out of this loop because there are generations upon generations of memory where everybody is getting their justice, right? I want my justice, and it's to blow up your family, and now you have a reason to get your justice. And, uh, and there's no getting out of that, right? Because there's too many people with too much memory, and there's too many people wanting to get their justice at the cost of somebody else. Well, partners do this, too. I want my justice, and now I create a new one in you, right? You could put the kibosh on that, but it is hard because the very same problem is that I feel that something happened to me. There's that itch I need to scratch. I need you to pay. I need n- I need something to square this because there have been too many years of unfairness, and sometimes I just have to divorce you. So, uh, th-this accruing of memory is central, and if people only knew, um, they could prevent this, uh, because it is human nature. It's not him or her. It's all of us. This is a problem, and if you don't know about it, you're gonna do it.
- CWChris Williamson
It feels like prevention is significantly better than an attempt at repair.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Yes, because you cannot erase the memory. You can only relegate it, those neural pathways, to a dirt road 'cause they're no longer being used. They're no longer being triggered. Nothing you're doing right now triggers that memory.
- CWChris Williamson
But given that most people live lives of routine, um, uh, y-you were, uh, concerned and a small amount of justification about why your partner was staying late at work with somebody that you felt uncomfortable about. You learn this lesson, and you even do some of the repair. You deal with all the difficulty of g- going back over it. You do an open and honest, completely frank apology. But the next time that your partner stays late at work, regardless of what's been done to the past, the present and your predictions about the future are now being colored by what happened before.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Right. Right. Not only is the past always present, but the present is changing the past as well. So you and I had a great wedding, um, but our marriage sucks. And twelve years, thirteen, fifteen, twenty years down the line, a therapist asks us, "How was your wedding?" And our report is not great.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Contrast that with a couple who had the worst, had wedding from hell. People were arrested, drugs were found-
- CWChris Williamson
[chuckles]
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
... um, looted, all-- gifts were looted, all sorts of things-
- CWChris Williamson
Sounds great
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
... happened. This is a true story. But their marriage, um, uh, bec- became a great marriage. They look back on it as funny, as amazing.
- 42:17 – 47:38
The Impact of Distance on Rupture and Repair Conversations
- CWChris Williamson
Does distance make this harder? Obviously, we're in a, a modern world with a lot of people who argue, but they're not together.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, th- maybe they fight over the phone or text message or email, whatever. Uh, does... What does... What wrinkles does that add to the rupture and repair conversation?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
I love your questions, Chris. They're great. Um, here's the problem. We're, we're, we're face to face, eye to eye animals. We're legally blind on this side. We have to be dead on to regulate each other because we're visual-- we have a visual brain. Therefore, we error correct to the visual field. Everything else is messy. So if we're on the phone, we lose the visual, which means we're only using the auditory. Now, since we're visual, we're visualizing things according to our own state of mind. So if I'm angry with you, what picture of you in my head do I have at the moment? Probably not great. That colors how you sound. Um, so my error rate in understanding and appraising you, especially if I'm under stress, all of this is about when we're under stress, which is a lot, right? We're only talking about when one of us is under stress, things are gonna go wonky if we're not pr- uh, not careful. Under stress, I'm gonna hear differently because the state of mind that is, that is triggered by this, by my feeling, by my stress, is connected to memory, and they, they operate in a loop. They reinforce each other. That my state of mind alters my perception like a fun house mirror, and it's stunning. What I see, what I taste, what I hear, what I feel, all of that is altered by my state. Therefore, what could go wrong here? Um, I am at a, a angry state. I am talking in a way, my prosody changes, that is unfriendly to you. I can't see your face. You can't see my face. Maybe I was smiling. Uh, you don't know. Uh, now we're gonna fight for no reason because we're m- our error rate is sky high, and the more excited we get, the, the worst... Uh, the, uh, error rate goes really high.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Like, and, and it's o- over nothing, right? It's over s- Our brain thinks it's something. It isn't. Um, or text. I mean, it's crazy. Uh, never do relationship stuff over text. You send your, a, a picture of your f- goofy face, I love you, emoticons, uh, what time's dinner? That's it. No-
- CWChris Williamson
That the limit, that's the upper bound of how much your relationship should be mediated through the phone.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Yes. I, what did we used to do? We, uh, well, used to draw pictures on a cave, but, you know, uh, in the old days, I'd write you a letter, and it would take a month at least to get to you. You could be sure I wrote that, thinking very carefully, very carefully about what I am saying. It was a beautiful letter, right? Yeah, beautiful letter. And I didn't need spellcheck. I had my anxiety knowing that you're gonna see this letter, and it was gonna take about a month, right? I want you to get this exactly right. Well, what do we do now? [laughs] We get in a lot of trouble with our text, with our work, you know, with, uh, you know, add to that a little bit of Ambien or a little bit of benzodiazepines or alcohol and everything, and we're screwed. So yeah, we do not understand our limitations. There are things we cannot do, and yet we expect things that are not possible, like you and I under stress can talk about more than one topic without fighting. That's impossible. Or that you and I can talk about an emotional conversation while one of us is driving. That will end badly. It's not possible. Uh, you know, there are things that people don't understand that we're limited by. We're smart in so many areas, and we're so fucking stupid on a daily basis, and it's funny, except we take all of it personally, and most of it isn't. Most of it is because we're stupid, automatic, reflexive, memory-based, not thinking, not paying attention, um, because we live in a world where our attention is constantly split now.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 47:38 – 49:48
Conflict or Incompatibility: How Can You Tell?
- CWChris Williamson
What does... I, I'm thinking about kind of how we discussed at the top this... It's like a conversation about compatibility. How much of relationship conflict-
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
I love that
- CWChris Williamson
... is just based around incompatibility and, and not pointing in the same direction or being specific about what each of you wants to see if you're in agreement in advance?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Compatibility in my game, in my mind, only is where you and I are pointing in two different directions on the big-ticket items, right? I want full transparency. I want us to h- you know, we're... This is a team sport, says I. I want us to work together. I want our left hands and right hands to know the same thing. That keeps us safe. That's what I want. Best thing, and you say, "Not so fast." I don't, but you have a right to say, "I don't think that's the best idea for me. I don't think it's really good for you, but I'll try to convince you. I think we should have our secrets. I think we should have our privacy." You have every right to want that. Now, if you stick to your guns, and I can't get you over to my side, you can't get me over to your side in an honest way. I have to really selfishly want what you want, or it won't work, and vice versa. Um, we're not... We're incompatible W- w- just we're not wrong, we're just incompatible. Um, that's true incompatibility, not you have a greater sex drive than I do. Not, um, I like tennis and you don't. Not... [chuckles] Right? Th- that's not the kind of compatibility that's gonna make a difference in life, 'cause every-- all interests are gonna change no matter what. That's not a problem, right? You can create mutual interests. Uh, but these things won't work. It's not about healthy, unhealthy, good, bad, right or wrong. It just can't work, right? Uh, it's a built-in fight. So, uh, you know, you can't ignore those things. But the attachment system, the I can't quit you biology, will make us go, "Let's get married," and ignore that deal breaker. [chuckles]
- 49:48 – 1:02:52
The “I Can’t Quit You” Biology
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
It's-
- CWChris Williamson
What? You've said it a couple of times, uh, the I can't quit you biology. What is that?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Attachment is, is nature's glue. It keeps us sticky. It keeps us together. And, and it feels like love 'cause it has loving aspects to it, and behaviorally could have it. But let's say you and I are y- I'm abusive. I hurt you physically and mentally. Um, that glue is likely to keep you in this relationship, and you'll justify it in all sorts of ways. Um, or because you're financially dependent on me, you'll justify it, or because your religion says this, or because you're in a c- in a culture where divorce is looked down upon or whatever it is you'll come up with. Or the kids. The kids will suffer then, right? Now I have all these reasons, but I'm telling you the main reason is the attachment biology that is connected to survival that feels like death. I'm largely unaware of it. Some people are acutely aware, right, depending on their attachment organization. Um, but that isn't always their thing for most people. There are outliers, but they are-- they're different. They don't... They- they're different. Um, they don't attach in the same way. Um, and so, uh, it, you know, it, it, the... Everything in nature has a feature and a bug. Everything that's a feature is a bug, and also in personalities. Also, I... You know, if somebody has massive OCD, that's a feature for a ph- a surgeon. You know, you want your surgeon to have OCD. You want your sur- your, your pilot to be, have OCD, right? Your accountant to have OCD. That's great. You don't want a spouse with OCD necessarily, 'cause that's a pain in the ass. That's a bug there. So all of this isn't really good or bad. All people are disappointing. All people are a pain in the ass. All people are, are trouble and a burden. Um, what you want is to create a system whereby neither of you can possibly feel unsafe or insecure by design. Neither of you will be unhappy in the relationship by design. You can do that. You can structure things this way. You can't control everything else outside of this, but home, I think is as a relationship. Tracy and I, no matter where we go, as long as we're together, I'm fine, and, and we've been to some really terrible places. I mean, really terrible places. That's an achievement.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
I... You know, that home is where w- we are. Uh, it's gonna make me wanna cry because, uh, when you start to get to this place, the only thing now that's the bug is worrying that, you know, you can lose them. You know, not to, you know, affairs, not to divorce, but to death. And, and that's really troubling. Although it does make me, um, appreciate the moment instead of taking it for granted, which is what we should all do, as we're in denial about that. Your partner could die at any moment. Did you say what you needed to say? Have you really enjoyed that person?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Are you really here, or are you gonna regret, uh, that you, you know? Um, th- that's, again, nature's forces. Energy conservation is to do the least amount necessary and direct our attention to what we deem important, and it's usually something that is not familiar. You are familiar, therefore I don't need to look at you anymore. I don't need to court you anymore. I don't need to, uh, know you anymore. I think I know you. I don't. Um, I, I, I... You know, we store a picture of our partners and our children's face in our brain for weeks and months without really looking.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
I didn't even notice this. [chuckles] That's how lazy we are, and it's not laziness. It's energy conservation. Therefore, we have to build rituals, o- other-- we'd never do anything good for ourselves. We would have to, you know, build things in that are romantic every day that we would do to, to fall in love again with each other every day. It just doesn't happen. Uh, behavior wags its hell of how we feel. And the-- and these are the forces we're up against, um, all of us. Automation. Uh, we're gonna automate each other. Therefore, I think I know you. That's a dangerous proposition. I don't know you. I w- I don't... I can never fully know you. And not only that, you've been on the planet too long, which is why we used to have pillow talk and shoot the breeze and about our childhoods, just fun talk. Now I see, I sit with couples, and they know nothing about each other. They're not curious. There's no curiosity. Curiosity is the flame. Curiosity is the dopamine. Curiosity is the strangeness that goes, "You know, you are novel, even though I think you're familiar." If I look really closely, you're not as familiar as I think. Now you're interesting. But we'd have to look for the novelty in the ordinary, and we're too lazy to do that.
- CWChris Williamson
It's interesting with the I Can't Quit You thing. I think a lot of people, you, you, you mentioned, uh, injustice and helplessness.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, it's strange that-
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
And fear. And fear will make us angry.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Uh, with sort of sufficiently disorganized attachment, you can fear and feel injustice and be helplessly stuck inside of-
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... a relationship with a person who is both s- supposedly the salve but also the cause of all of these-
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... issues of all your, your s- psychological maladies. And people will... It, it, it's another feature and bug scenario where, um, it's a noble thing to sacrifice your needs in place of somebody that you're attached to, but that also can get hijacked to the point where you just continue to grit your teeth. As you mentioned, a couple that's been together for so long and they haven't enjoyed each other for decades and decades, and they just keep going because-
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
They can't stop. Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... yeah, yeah. It's sort of an-
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
There's some-
- CWChris Williamson
... addiction
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
... there is... Uh, well, yeah. It, it, there is an addictive component to it. I don't wanna mislead your audience because it's not truly that. Um, uh, when I, when I do something to feel better at the, at the cost of doing the right thing. In other words, I feel better, but I just hurt the relationship, the union. I do get a reward for that, right? Uh, a feel good, which makes me wanna do it again and again. And it is, you know, it is like addiction where I'm gonna grab for it because I can't hold and wait. I can't wait, right? I'm gonna take it now. Even though there's downstream bad effects for me, I'm ignoring those. So in that sense, yeah, that's very much like an addiction that is impulsive and, and needs to grab impulsively what I need to do despite the fact that it's self-harming. Um, so yes, but the system begins to react to itself, and that's really another way to look at it as systemic. The system is reacting. No longer real individuals. They're amplifying each other's negatives by pointing and, uh, poking, uh, their core vulnerabilities. Here's another unfair, kind of unkind nature thing, is that because we pair bond based on some kind of familiarity and recognition, we don't pair bond with strangers that are too strange, right? They have to be familiar enough. [chuckles] Um, um, w- we're both likely to have the bite that fits the other person's wound. Um, we're not those people, but we kind of play them on TV. Uh, we have the, the, we have the predilection, we have the ability to do those things that remind us of those relationships, which is why it's problematic. So memory. [clears throat] Now, if we didn't know better, I don't know you have this wound. I only see your defense against it, and your defense is really threatening. So I respond in a threatening way, which consolidates your vulnerability and increases your defense and, right, and makes you certain that I'm a dangerous character. Well, you're doing the same with me. You're hap- you happen to be poking me in a core vulnerable place, um, and that I can't do anything other than react. Um, you don't know this, um, because the way I'm responding to you feels threatening, of course. Therefore, you are gonna protect yourself from me, and therein lies the problem. We're gonna make each other worse naturally 'cause you're not paid to sit there and just think about what I'm doing. You're gonna take it personally. Now, if you're a therapist, you can't do that, right? I have to sit, and I have to sit with my feelings and not, you know, not jump up and act out. [clears throat] I have, but I regret that. But, you know, it's, you know, we're human, but, but we're paid to do otherwise, right? Your partner isn't, and, and therefore we're more likely to make each other worse because it's a misunderstanding. You can't know why I'm doing this thi- threatening thing, and you don't need to know because you're feeling threatened. So n- knowledge is power. Understanding how the brain works, understanding how these systems work, understanding your partner inside out, being an expert on your partner, which if your survival mattered to you and you thought about it, you better know how to restore your partner back to, uh, you know, level thinking and level, uh, performance because your life does depend on them. They go down, you're in the foxhole together, you're dead. So you better know the animal you picked and how to, how to work with this animal, be an animal whisperer of this one. They're not you, and you're gonna need them if you are a team. It matters if they go down, and you better know how, just the right way to pick them back up or you, y- you're, uh, again, what, what's the point? So this is an orientation and couples just not, not oriented towards this being a survival team, but it is. You just haven't been tested yet. [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Life has not thrown you that curve. You're not in Bosnia during that time. Uh, you're not in Ukraine and Russia now. You're not in Gaza, uh, or you know, right? Uh, a whole different orientation there. They know what's important. It's, uh, to protect, uh, each other, right? Uh, we don't. We're asleep. Um, that's the denial system 'cause it would get in the way if we always had to plan for this. But The planning for this starts with the building blocks of reining each other in and being safe and secure and, and predicting and planning and preventing future problems by predicting them ahead of time. That does the same thing. You don't have to build, you know, together a bomb shelter. [chuckles] Uh, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about that, that the two of you know how to build structure, how to, how to reform this to your liking. You just have to know how to do it and practice it, and it has to be predicated on principles that cannot be violated.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 1:02:52 – 1:07:55
The Top Principles Behind Secure Relationships
- CWChris Williamson
If you could give people, couples, the most important big movers, the most important principles that they should follow to create these secure, functioning relationships. That's what everybody wants, right?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's the thing that is the most important. It's gonna help us steel ourselves against the woes of the world and the slings and arrows that are going to come from outside of it. What are the things that people should focus on in order to do that?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
On a s- on a more focused level, I'm gonna give you two, see. On focus level, start now. If you do nothing else, uh, make sure that you repair to the other person's satisfaction. You can see their face relax. If they're not relaxed, you're not done yet. Repair, fix, make it right, make amends properly, immediately, or within thirty minutes. Make that a, a habit, make that a law, make that what must happen. Otherwise, you're gonna die sooner, I guarantee you, because of the, the corticosteroids you produce in that stress when there's a breach. You're not doing yourself any favors. And you're setting the other person up for, and yourself, for, um, a long-term memory. And that's... You're not gonna want that. So fix, fix it right away. I don't care how you do that. If you can do nothing else, you can say to each other, uh, you know, "I hate you right now, but we're okay." It turns out that the we're okay is, is, is sufficient to be able to sleep through the night or be able to get through your day. 'Cause I promise you, if you don't do that, you're, you are not at your optimum performance level. You can't be. Uh, you won't be, uh, if you're paying attention. So if you know what's good for yourself, you just settled the existential question that is there when there's a breach in relationship. When we fight, will this relationship exist tomorrow? Are we okay? If you can just do that minimum, you're better than most. And, uh, my wife and I have a, uh, a rule. We can go to bed angry, but we have to at least touch toes. And that's harder than you might think. But, um, but that's been practiced, and there's an immediate reward for doing the right thing when it's the hardest thing to do, and that is your self-esteem goes right up because you know you did the hardest thing, the right thing when it was the hardest thing to do. We're already doing the easiest things. That's what we're already doing, but that's not a good life. A purpose-centered life is decided ahead of time that this is right, best, or good, so say us both, and we're gonna, we're gonna plan to do this for when we actually do n- do not feel like doing it at all. Uh, even when I hate you, I still do this beautiful thing. Even when I hate you, I still don't do this destructive thing, right? That's a good life. That's the only thing that's ever been a good life. That is reliable. That earns love. That earns respect as daily we're proving to each other we stick to our principles. We show each other, and when we fail, we fall on our swords, beg for forgiveness, and make it right. Simple. Um, and the, the s- the other thing is design your relationship. Start with who are you? Shared power, shared authority, something other than that. You've got to be explicit, and you've got to think ahead. "Yeah, I'd like you to be in charge. I like it." Right? "Okay. Remember that, uh, if, uh, if he's in charge, you don't get the final say on anything." You understand that, right? Unless you build that in somehow, right? And so [clears throat] you just have to be adult and a grown-up because yours, your individual lives are now your own, not your parents. And this... And as a couple, you're on your own. You're the leaders here. There is nobody else. No therapist, right? I'm, I'm not gonna define your relationship. You have to. It's your gig. You can have it any way you want. And believe me, people have some very strange and novel arrangements, right? Fine. They're great because they fully agree. They've worked it out. No problem. But they... It's all explicit. It's never implied, right? Because if it's implied, I'm gonna abuse that, that, uh, that reality, right? It has to be explicit and agreed upon like a blood oath because, um, uh, this is, this really is about our lives depend on, on adhering to this. We have to buy... We have to drink the Kool-Aid and buy into it because we're gon- we're expected to come through when we least want to, and that's gonna happen for sure.
- CWChris Williamson
Awesome.
- 1:07:55 – 1:09:01
Where to Find Stan
- CWChris Williamson
Stan Tatkin, ladies and gentlemen. Stan, I think you're brilliant. I think your work rules. Where should people go to check out everything you do?
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
All right. The PACT Institute is the place to go to. T-H-E-P-A-C-T institute.com. Uh, if you're a couple, there's a couple area, uh, that is, uh, uh, devoted to you, workshops and, uh, retreats, materials. And then if you're a, a clinician, uh, that's how this started. Um, uh, I... We do trainings, uh, all over the world, and you can find that information there as well. Oh, and there's a new product called The Win-Win Couple. The first time we've done a filming on how to work together collaboratively under stress, and that video is now ava- now available on the website if you go to, uh, the PACT site.
- CWChris Williamson
Heck yeah. Stan, I appreciate you. Until next time.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
Chris, you're terrific. I wish every interviewer is like you.
- CWChris Williamson
That's what I wanted to hear.
- STDr. Stan Tatkin
All right. [chuckles] Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
[outro music] Congratulations. You made it to the end of a podcast episode without dying. Now, here's another one. Go on, watch it.
Episode duration: 1:09:02
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Transcript of episode NzNI5B-E-74
