Skip to content
Modern WisdomModern Wisdom

"Women Are Furious About This Research." - Darby Saxbe

Dr Darby Saxbe is a clinical psychologist, professor at USC, and author. Do dads get postpartum depression? Mothers face enormous physical and emotional changes after childbirth, but fathers can struggle too, often in silence. So what happens to men when they become dads, why does it affect some so deeply, and how can they adapt to a new life that nature has thrust upon them? Expect to learn what actually happens to dads after moms give birth, the physiological changes that happen to dads after birth, which behaviors create the effect known as “dad brain”, the biggest upsides and downsides of fatherhood for men, why postpartum depression in fathers goes unrecognized, the worst advice dads get, and much more… - Modern Wisdom Merch available this Friday at https://www.mwmerch.com/ Get 160+ lab tests for just $365 and save an extra $25 at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period from Shopify at https://shopify.com/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at ⁠https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom⁠ Get ChatGPT to explore ideas, solve problems, and learn faster at ⁠⁠https://chatgpt.com - 0:19 What is Dad Brain? 2:18 How Fatherhood Has Changed Over Time 8:18 What Happens to Men During Pregnancy? 12:57 Should Fathers Be in the Delivery Room? 13:47 Are Sympathetic Pregnancies Real? 15:17 What Couples Should Focus on During Pregnancy 17:56 The Real Cause of Dad Brain 24:18 The Top Behaviours That Trigger Dad Brain 31:31 Biology or Choice: What Makes a “Hands-On” Dad? 33:48 The Truth Behind the Deadbeat Dad Narrative 36:44 Can Fathers Bond at Any Age? 38:50 How Fatherhood Changes Male Hormones 46:44 Why Becoming a Father Is the Ultimate Masculine Role 50:25 Does Dad Brain Get Worse With More Kids? 53:19 How Daughters Change Fathers 1:00:48 Does Housework Ruin Cortisol Recovery? 1:03:43 Do Dads Experience Postpartum Depression? 1:15:29 Why Postpartum Depression Happens in Women 1:18:55 How to Support a Partner Through Postpartum Depression 1:31:09 The Worst Advice New Dads Hear - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Chris WilliamsonhostDr. Darby Saxbeguest
Jul 27, 20261h 34mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:19

    Intro

    1. CW

      I'm sorry it's taken so long, but merch is nearly here. This Friday, the 31st of July, at 12:00 midday Central Time or 6:00 PM UK time, the brand new Modern Wisdom merch goes live. Head to mwmerch.com now to sign up. You'll get first access, and once this is sold out, it's gone. Never to be printed again. You've only got six days to be able to buy, so head to mwmerch.com now.

  2. 0:19 – 2:18

    What is Dad Brain?

    1. CW

      Most people are familiar with mom brain, but you found that dads' brains go through a bunch of changes, too.

    2. DS

      Exactly. Yeah, so I've been looking at new fathers in my lab over the last decade plus. We've scanned men when they're midway through their partner's pregnancy and then again after they have their first child. And we find that the brain, and I should caveat this is not a bad thing, loses gray matter volume across that transition to fatherhood. So the patterns look similar to those that have been observed in moms, and they seem to be of smaller magnitude, they're more variable, and they're more tied to Dad's parenting experience.

    3. CW

      Hmm. How does it differ from mom brain? What are the biggest differences?

    4. DS

      So new moms lose about 2.5% of their gray matter volume across the transition into first-time motherhood.

    5. CW

      Hmm.

    6. DS

      And they lose volume in parts of the brain that are really linked to hormones. So that includes not just the cortex, which if you think about sort of the outer layer of brain tissue that does a lot of our higher order thinking and reasoning. It also includes what's called the subcortex, which contains our amygdala, our ventral striatum, which processes reward, and a number of other structures that are linked with drive and gut feelings. Dads change mostly just in the cortex, which is that sort of executive functioning, thinking, and reasoning part of the brain.

    7. CW

      Hmm. Mm-hmm.

    8. DS

      Moms show profound changes across the whole brain.

    9. CW

      Hmm.

    10. DS

      And dads' changes are, like I said, smaller in magnitude, so dads lose about-

    11. CW

      Titrated dose

    12. DS

      ... 1% of their gray matter volume. And my lab found that this was totally tied to Dad's parenting time and investment. So dads who felt more bonded with their babies before birth, they were more motivated to take time off after birth. They spent more day-to-day time with kids in the first few months, and they reported feeling more bonded and having more pleasure in interacting with their kids. Those dads showed the

  3. 2:18 – 8:18

    How Fatherhood Has Changed Over Time

    1. DS

      biggest brain change.

    2. CW

      How would you categorize the change in fatherhood over the last few generations?

    3. DS

      There's been a dramatic change. So by some estimates, dads' daily time in parenting has tripled or even quadrupled compared to the father-knows-best dads of the '50s and '60s. So there's been a huge uptick, and what's interesting is that there was an inflection point around the pandemic where men who might have been commuting to an office and maybe missing a lot of the day-to-day stuff with their kids suddenly had the experience of being hands-on parents in a different way. And a lot of people wondered whether that uptick would persist, and it has. So millennial dads are spending more time with kids than any other generation of US dads, and there's evidence that Gen Z dads are spending even more time than millennial dads. So there's been a pretty dramatic shift.

    4. CW

      How does modern fathering differ from hunter-gatherer societies?

    5. DS

      So it's interesting. So in my book, I talk about the, a model of hunter-gatherer fatherhood, the Aka, which is a society in the Congo where men spend a lot of time within hand's reach of infants, and they're very involved in infant care. And what's unique about the Aka, and this quality is shared by a number of other hunter-gatherer societies, is that they have a very egalitarian, flat social structure, and there's a lot of cooperative resource gathering. So we know hunter-gatherer societies are the context in which we spent 95% of our human history. So they tell us something about the environments within which we adapted-

    6. CW

      Mm-hmm

    7. DS

      ... within which we evolved. And, uh, we know that women contributed a ton of calories. So when people say it's unnatural for women to work, in fact, women have been economically productive for most of our human history. But in the Aka, the main form of resource gathering is joint cooperative net hunting. So couples work together to gain resources for the society.

    8. CW

      Hmm.

    9. DS

      And as a result, really differentiated, specialized parenting roles don't make very much sense, right? They would not be economically adaptive.

    10. CW

      Hmm.

    11. DS

      But you see other models. Even within Africa, I talk about another society, the Kepsigis, which is a day's drive away, where there are strict prohibitions against men picking babies up in the first year after birth.

    12. CW

      No way.

    13. DS

      So you'd never see a man carrying a baby outside-

    14. CW

      It's prohibited. Why?

    15. DS

      ... his own home. They're not supposed to share a sleeping surface with babies because it's considered that the, the manliness of the father will disrupt the infant's rearing and that the infant will compromise the father's masculinity. So-

    16. CW

      Hmm

    17. DS

      ... and this is something I talk about a lot in my book. There's so much societal and cultural variability around fatherhood.

    18. CW

      What is the resource gathering process of the second tribe?

    19. DS

      Yeah. So it's very different. It's much more risky. It's more hazardous. It's, uh, slash and burn forest- forestry. And so it makes sense, just as in the Aka it makes sense not to specialize too strictly-

    20. CW

      Uh-huh

    21. DS

      ... it makes sense in the Kepsigis that dads are gonna do most of the economic work, and moms are gonna do most of the caretaking. And to be clear, dads are very involved with older kids. They'll teach them how to hunt.

    22. CW

      Yeah.

    23. DS

      They'll teach them how to provision, but they are not picking babies up.

    24. CW

      Do you see parallels between a modern society with more egalitarian access to work, more female breadwinners, and the Aka?

    25. DS

      Yeah. I think there's some key distinctions, but there, there's more of a through line, I think, between that model of social organization and contemporary societies.

    26. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    27. DS

      Right? Because we have women in the workforce, and our jobs no longer require upper body strength or high risk tolerance for the most part.

    28. CW

      Yep.

    29. DS

      Right? So women have the opportunity to earn income. And you know, like I said, most of human history we were either hunter-gatherers or small family farmers, so women were contributing to economic productivity even within those models. But agricultural society has different conditions and generally demands more specialization. There's more stability that allows you to accumulate and store wealth.

    30. CW

      Hmm.

  4. 8:18 – 12:57

    What Happens to Men During Pregnancy?

    1. DS

      the study earlier.

    2. CW

      What happens with fathers-to-be when their partners are pregnant?

    3. DS

      A lot. So we see hormone changes. We see new emotional worries and concerns. We see couple relationship changes. We sle- even sleep disruption that starts early, before the baby's born. And we don't know exactly the time course of brain remodeling because, like I said, my scan study started in mid-pregnancy. We don't have other sources of information for the most part, and so we're making our best guess. My hunch is that what is reorganizing the brain more than anything else is parenting experience and the way in which that challenges the brain and the social demands that it places on the brain. So my guess is that when we're looking at fathers, we're gonna see most of the change happening after birth. But we don't know that for sure. We need to replicate these studies and extend them.

    4. CW

      Right. Am, am I right in saying that there's research that shows how the relationship manages conflict impacts how painful the childbirth is?

    5. DS

      Yes. My lab did that study. Yeah. So we brought... Is, is that stressing you out? [laughs]

    6. CW

      It's just... It's, it's, it's kind of tenuous, right? Like you've just explained that relationship stress happens, sleep disruption happens-

    7. DS

      Yeah

    8. CW

      ... and it, that feels like quite a high bar. That's a, that's a, a, a big impact of pre-child, uh, like regulation.

    9. DS

      Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the bottom line is that kids are resilient. Humans are resilient. We have survived in all kinds of different conditions, and that's kind of our superpower as humans, is our adaptability.

    10. CW

      Hmm.

    11. DS

      But it's a relatively new phenomenon for men to be present at their baby's birth, right? So birth is a very social process, and that's unique for humans. So most animals can deliver an infant solo, no problem. Right? Birth is fairly straightforward. We have these complicated, annoying human pelvises that reshaped when we started walking upright, and we also have these babies with these gigantic social brains. And so birth can be very cumbersome for women, and they often require assistance to steer a baby out of the birth canal. So you see in most human births, there, there are helpers. And in fact, one theory about why we evolved to live in societies is so that you would have people to assist in childbirth. That's one reason that we humans aren't just kind of, you know, solo, uh, you know, roamers, right? Like we need to be embedded in society so that our babies will survive.

    12. CW

      Hmm.

    13. DS

      But the people helping with childbirth are almost always women through most of human history. It's a midwife. It's a grandmother. It's sisters and community members. So it was really only in the 19th century that childbirth became really medicalized, and you have doctors in hospitals who are presiding over childbirth. Even then, dads were kept out of the delivery room. So it was in the '60s and '70s really that dads started to advocate to be present during their baby's birth. Before that, moms were under heavy anesthesia, and the standard father role was basically hang out, pass out cigars, and, you know, get congratulated by your buddies.

    14. CW

      Hmm.

    15. DS

      Right? So we've seen this big shift, and there hasn't been a lot of research on how the couple affects the childbirth experience.

    16. CW

      Hmm.

    17. DS

      And also, what is the emotional impact for both mom and dad when dad is present at birth? We now expect dads to do a lot of the support- That might have been provided by intergenerational kin in previous eras. And dads aren't necessarily trained for that or primed for that. And so there can be emotional fallout from witnessing a traumatic and stressful birth. And like you mentioned, the study from my lab, we found that when couples fought in more negative ways during pregnancy, the birth was more medically complex and riskier, and both members of the couple appraised it as being more stressful.

    18. CW

      That's likely just the impact of emotional stress on a mother's body, therefore the downstream impact of that physiologically during childbirth is gonna be negative.

    19. DS

      Yeah, exactly. So we know stress, tension, fear, pain, right? So when you're delivering an infant, your body has to release and relax. You have to allow the infant to move down through the birth canal. If you're clenched up, stressed, and tense-

    20. CW

      Hmm

    21. DS

      ... it makes it harder, and it's gonna feel more painful, and it's gonna lead to more difficult birth outcomes.

  5. 12:57 – 13:47

    Should Fathers Be in the Delivery Room?

    1. CW

      What's been the impact of having men in the delivery room? Do you think it's been a good idea?

    2. DS

      I think it's been really good for some couples, and I think it's been challenging for others. And it's become controversial, right? So every sports season, there's a player that can't participate because he has to be present at his baby's birth. And I think it's really valuable for moms who benefit from having a partner there to provide support. Again, because we don't have these close intergenerational ties that maybe were normative a couple generations ago.

    3. CW

      Hmm.

    4. DS

      So I think having social support, continuous social support, is one of the best ways to have a positive birth experience. However, I think when dads are unprepared, when they're terrified, and when they haven't figured out how to communicate effectively with moms, they can have a deleterious impact on the birth

  6. 13:47 – 15:17

    Are Sympathetic Pregnancies Real?

    1. DS

      process.

    2. CW

      What's couvade syndrome?

    3. DS

      So that's male pregnancy, and it's a phenomenon by which males start to-

    4. CW

      Is it a real thing?

    5. DS

      Well, it's a controversial thing. I talk about it a little bit in the book. I think it's more anecdotal than evidence-based. So the data on it, there have been a couple studies that have, that have been done, but I don't fully trust the results. We actually looked at it in my sample of dads. We didn't find any associations between hormones and dads' self-reported pregnancy symptoms. But it's basically like a sympathetic pregnancy. And you see it in different cross-cultural models. So men feeling like they're experiencing nausea, pregnancy patterns of weight gain, uh, sympathetic labor pains. And the study that was done in a UK hospital found that expectant dads reported a bunch of pregnancy-like symptoms during their partner's pregnancy.

    6. CW

      Just empathizing. Ladies, you say that you need us to open up more. We're just empathe-- I'm empathizing so much that I'm having period pains.

    7. DS

      Well, and, uh, a lot of these pains are stress-related, right? So if you think about things like gastrointestinal distress and, you know, difficulty sleeping, those are things that come when you're really stressed and anxious.

    8. CW

      Basically pregnant.

    9. DS

      So yeah, [chuckles] exactly.

    10. CW

      Basically pregnant.

    11. DS

      So needless to say, a, a lot of expectant moms are annoyed by this research because, you know, only one of you is actually puking because of the baby. The other person might just be freaking out.

    12. CW

      Mm.

    13. DS

      But I think it's interesting that we are so contagious, and we soak up the emotional experiences of people

  7. 15:17 – 17:56

    What Couples Should Focus on During Pregnancy

    1. DS

      around us.

    2. CW

      What do you think couples should pay attention to as they're going through pregnancy, then?

    3. DS

      So I, I think they need to learn how to communicate effectively and listen to each other. I think a lot of the time women hear each other's birth stories just like you're at a picnic and everybody's telling you the gnarly story of, you know, their third baby's birth that got really complicated. Men don't necessarily get the opportunity to hear about different kinds of birth experiences or watch media that portrays birth in realistic ways 'cause our pop culture conceptions are sort of bananas. So I think birth education that involves fathers can be really valuable to normalize what to expect, what is the progress of labor gonna be like, and how can you effectively provide support and be a calming influence.

    4. CW

      I've heard you say if you think that having a baby is going to fix your relationship, don't do it.

    5. DS

      Exactly.

    6. CW

      Why?

    7. DS

      Yeah. So the studies show a reliable drop in relationship satisfaction around the birth of a baby. And it's unsurprising if you think about the challenges of adjusting to life with a new baby. I used to joke that my husband and I went from good time pals to we're suddenly operating a small business-

    8. CW

      Mm-hmm

    9. DS

      ... with a very disappointed customer, right?

    10. CW

      [laughing]

    11. DS

      You have someone, [laughs] you have someone crying around the clock who is not pleased with anything you're doing to comfort them. Your sleep is disrupted, and you're suddenly worrying about money and your living arrangements and all of these new concerns that maybe you didn't have before.

    12. CW

      Permanent one-star reviews.

    13. DS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    14. CW

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    15. DS

      Exactly.

    16. CW

      Most people have no idea where their testosterone levels sit. But what if I told you there was a solution? Something that identifies low T faster than a high school bully, and it won't cost you all your lunch money. That's where Function comes in. Gives you access to over a hundred and sixty lab tests, including a deep dive into your full hormone panel. Every result is reviewed by clinicians. Anything out of range is flagged, and you get clear explanations with a personalized protocol with actionable next steps. So if something's off, you know exactly what to do about it. Whether you just need to go to the gym more or you need to play Creed louder in your car, Function will tell you exactly where your testosterone and everything else stands. Normally, this level of testing would usually cost thousands, but with Function, it's three hundred and sixty-five dollars a year. That's one dollar a day to stop guessing with your health and start knowing. And right now, you can get twenty-five dollars off, bringing it down to three hundred and forty bucks. So get the exact same blood panels that I do and save twenty-five dollars by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom using the code modernwisdom

  8. 17:56 – 24:18

    The Real Cause of Dad Brain

    1. CW

      at checkout. Okay, so why is it that becoming a father- ... isn't enough. It's becoming a caregiver that creates dad brain.

    2. DS

      So why is it that you need to actually spend time parenting?

    3. CW

      Yeah.

    4. DS

      Yeah. Because it takes practice and repetition to build the brain.

    5. CW

      Hmm.

    6. DS

      Just like anything you learn, whether you're learning an instrument or a new language or, you know, you're a London taxi driver navigating the city.

    7. CW

      Hmm.

    8. DS

      So I think with moms, you have this kind of high floor of investment primed and ready to go, and partially that's because it takes so much energy to incubate a pregnancy. It's thousands of calories. So moms have already devoted a lot of energetic resources to babies before they even arrive. So in... If you think about you, you sort of have a caregiving dial that can be turned up or down. Moms are turned all the way up by the time the baby arrives. So the example I gave you of a village where dads don't pick up their babies in the first year, it'd be very f- hard to find a village like that made up of moms-

    9. CW

      Mm

    10. DS

      ... who had similar prohibitions.

    11. CW

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    12. DS

      Right? Moms in many ways are biologically primed to care. With dads, it's like the dial is set more in the middle, and it can be turned up or down depending on culture and local contextual demands. So I think what's really cool about dads is that they come equipped with the biology that makes them ready to adapt to become sensitive caregivers. But whether or not-

    13. CW

      If needed

    14. DS

      ... they turn the dial-

    15. CW

      Mm-hmm

    16. DS

      ... is up to them. It's up to, is mom c- incapacitated? Is, uh, am I in a culture where dads are really hands-on? So in the book I talk about this concept of facultative adaptation, which is to say an adaptation that comes online when needed that can be very useful. So you think about primates who run on four legs, but if they need to grab something, they can stand up and walk on two legs. So you can grab more stuff if you have that ability. If you can turn up the dial for fatherhood, you can enrich kids' lives, and you can benefit them and provide them with better outcomes and better odds of survival.

    17. CW

      Presumably paternity uncertainty has got a role to play here as well.

    18. DS

      Yes.

    19. CW

      You don't want to be locked in hormonally, neurologically to raising a child that you're not sure is yours.

    20. DS

      Exactly, and one of the really unique things about humans is we conceal our ovulation.

    21. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    22. DS

      So human males don't know for sure whether or not they've caused a pregnancy. So it actually incentivizes human males to invest in courtship because you can't just helicopter in, have sex once, and know that you've made a baby. You have to show up repeatedly if you want to be sure you have very good odds of success.

    23. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    24. DS

      And so you're gonna show up with gifts, and you're gonna get to know that person. And, and so it's adaptive to pair bond, which is why humans have really high rates of pair bonding compared to other species.

    25. CW

      Hmm.

    26. DS

      So we do see that dads' predilection to caregive, again, can turn that dial up or down depending on the stability of their relationship with the baby's mother.

    27. CW

      Oh, so a, a less stable relationship with the mother would result in a different parenting style from the dad?

    28. DS

      It could, yeah, exactly. Yeah, it would motivate different reproductive sta- strategy.

    29. CW

      Hmm. Are you familiar with the Westermarck effect?

    30. DS

      Nnn, I don't think so.

  9. 24:18 – 31:31

    The Top Behaviours That Trigger Dad Brain

    1. DS

      context.

    2. CW

      What are the behaviors that most create dad brain? If I was to design a menu or a daily routine to maximize that 1% change, what would I be doing?

    3. DS

      Yeah. You'd be picking your baby up, you'd be caring for them, you'd probably be sharing a sleeping surface with them. You'd be diapering them, you'd be feeding them, you'd be bathing them. So you'd be doing the kind of intensive care that helps you really get to know a baby and attunes you more to their physiology and to their mind.

    4. CW

      Hmm.

    5. DS

      Because where we see a lot of the change happening in men's brains is in what we call the mentalizing network, and that's a part of the brain that activates when we think about other people's minds and their intentions. It's what reads other people's emotions, and you could think about it as the seat of our empathy. And so that is a dynamic part of the brain in new dads and also in new moms, in part because when you are having to care for an infant who cannot communicate effectively, right, 'cause they can't talk-

    6. CW

      Hmm

    7. DS

      ... they just cry. You have to be able to read their emotions, and you have to be able to problem solve to figure out what they need. So you're getting a lot of exercise to that empathetic part of the brain.

    8. CW

      The executive function has been tuned down, so maybe your ability to come up with novel solutions might be less?

    9. DS

      Well, no, because I actually think you have to problem solve quite a bit, so your executive functioning is also gonna attune.

    10. CW

      Did you not say that ex- some of the... Oh, is it just moms that have got the executive function tuned down?

    11. DS

      No. Moms, both dads and moms. So it's tuning up. Well, it depends on whether you think of losing gray matter volume-

    12. CW

      Right

    13. DS

      ... as a tune-up or a tune-down.

    14. CW

      Right. Right.

    15. DS

      And the jury's a little out on that. We see volume reduction, which we think is about pruning-

    16. CW

      Pruning. Yeah

    17. DS

      ... and becoming more efficient.

    18. CW

      What's lost?

    19. DS

      Well, our short-term memory for objects that aren't our baby. So there's some evidence-

    20. CW

      Where are my keys?

    21. DS

      ... that working memory gets compromised. But we often use this deficit framing when we talk about mommy brain, like, "Oh, I, you know, I forgot where I parked the car."

    22. CW

      Hmm.

    23. DS

      It actually looks like certain kinds of memory are enhanced, and it's salience driven, so it's memory for your baby's smells, objects that are pertinent to your baby.

    24. CW

      Hmm.

    25. DS

      You know, rodents have to figure out where they've stashed their babies, like in a nest full of bedding. So one reason the hippocampus, which is the part of the brain that we think of as implicated in memory, is also really sensitive to smell, is you kind of have to smell your way to find the baby to retrieve your pup. So the hippocampus is really plastic in new moms and new dads.

    26. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    27. DS

      So it's like our memory is actually getting a different kind of workout, but we're maybe losing our sharpness in some domains and improving our functioning in others.

    28. CW

      Better able to detect what does this small thing want? What does it mean? Where did I leave things that are associated with it? Bottles and, and diapers and, and it itself and stuff like that.

    29. DS

      Yeah.

    30. CW

      But maybe less so where did I leave the car? Where did I leave the keys? What does the rest of my day look like outside of the baby orchestrating the operations of the rest of my life?

  10. 31:31 – 33:48

    Biology or Choice: What Makes a “Hands-On” Dad?

    1. CW

      Hmm. So if a dad's brain literally doesn't change unless he's hands-on with caregiving, is it right to say, like, "I love my kids, but I'm not a hands-on guy," is more a biological confession than a personality trait?

    2. DS

      I think it depends. I think it depends on what the context is and what is adaptive for a particular family. 'Cause I think there are cultures in which having dads who aren't hands-on makes sense for that, the local demands, because you have other caregivers or because dads are needed to do some kind of very specialized labor. I think in contemporary societies where we expect a fairly high level of involvement from most fathers, I would frame it as a missed opportunity.

    3. CW

      Hmm. Hmm. Have you seen Bob Odenkirk talking about what it means to be a dad?

    4. DS

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      It's so good. I don-

    6. DS

      I love Bob Odenkirk

    7. CW

      He's the man.

    8. DS

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      Play that clip for me, Jared. I think it's, I think it's so cool.

    10. SP

      Who are you jealous of? Anybody who's still got little kids at home growing up. Oh. Yeah. There's no question I knew what I was doing when I had kids growing up. Yeah. Right. I was being a dad. I mean, that was my job. Yeah. And I didn't have to ask myself, "What am I doing here?" Yeah. "What am I doing? How can I be a part of this world? How can I be meaningful today?" Yeah. I didn't have to ask that question, 'cause the fucking answer is, pick up everything between here and the door [laughs] Yeah. That's right ... and make sure they get to school, and have a laugh with them. Yeah. You know? Aw. It was... Life was, I understood my purpose. Best answer. Who are you jealous of?

    11. DS

      I love that. Yeah, and I think we do find that sense of meaning and purpose, which is so important for our well-being, our sense of connectedness, our sense of coherence, like he just talked about, like feeling like you have a reason to do what you do every day, and that life is happening according to plan.

    12. CW

      Hmm.

    13. DS

      That is so important for psychological health.

    14. CW

      I'm so excited to become a father. I can't wait for it. What-

    15. DS

      So are you, are you working on it? Or...

    16. CW

      Uh, yeah. Well, reliably you can't do it on your own. Um-

    17. DS

      Yeah. [laughs] I've heard that. Yeah

    18. CW

      ... which is, which is... I've- I have tried. Um-

    19. DS

      Yeah

    20. CW

      ... but, uh, yeah, that's... You need somebody else to be ready at the same time, so-

    21. DS

      Yeah, that's the tricky part

  11. 33:48 – 36:44

    The Truth Behind the Deadbeat Dad Narrative

    1. CW

      ... anyway, I know.

    2. DS

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      Um, what do you make of the deadbeat dad narrative?

    4. DS

      Yeah. So I think it is true in some cases, and it's unfair to dads in many other cases. So in 1960, you had 88% of kids living with a father at home.

    5. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    6. DS

      That dipped down in 2005 to 67% of kids, and it's actually rebounded. So today, about 76% of kids in the US are living with a father at home. So there's been this-

    7. CW

      A father or the father?

    8. DS

      The, usually the father-

    9. CW

      Right

    10. DS

      ... but not always.

    11. CW

      Hmm.

    12. DS

      So sometimes there's complex fatherhood where dads are living with, um, kids that weren't originally theirs-

    13. CW

      Hmm

    14. DS

      ... but at least having a stepfather figure in the home.

    15. CW

      Hmm.

    16. DS

      So there's been this kind of U-shaped change in father presence. But I think we often think about fatherhood as this binary, absent dad versus present dad, and there are a lot of shades of gradation in between.

    17. CW

      Hmm.

    18. DS

      So many non-residential fathers are really involved in caregiving. I talk about this in the book, but after my parents got divorced, we did joint custody. So my brothers and I were alone with our dad every other week, and he went from fairly hands-off caregiver to suddenly the primary parent in charge of everything we needed, and I watched how transformative that was for him. So there are different ways, again, to turn that dial of fatherhood.

    19. CW

      Hmm.

    20. DS

      And I think when dads fully check out, like I said, it's a missed opportunity both for themselves and for their kid. But there are a lot of ways to turn the dial back up. I talked to a dad for the book who spent the first three years of his son's life in jail, and was able to get out, reunite with his son, take parenting classes. He now works at an organization called Homeboy Industries, which does, uh, intervention for gang-involved people in LA, and he directs a Project Fatherhood program. And he said having that bond with his son was the single saving grace-

    21. CW

      Wow

    22. DS

      ... that actually helped him to reroute his life.

    23. CW

      Most people don't realize how much being dehydrated impacts their performance, which is why for the last five years, I've started pretty much every morning with LMNT. LMNT is a tasty electrolyte drink mix with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. This orange salt in a cold glass of water is like a sweet, salty, orangey nectar, and I really tell the difference when I take it versus when I don't. It plays a critical role in reducing muscle cramps and fatigue, helps to optimize brain health, and regulates your appetite while also curbing cravings. Best of all, they have a no questions asked refund policy with an unlimited duration, so you can buy it and try it for as long as you want, and if you don't like it for any reason, they'll just give you your money back. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of LMNT's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklmnt.com/. Modern Wisdom.

  12. 36:44 – 38:50

    Can Fathers Bond at Any Age?

    1. CW

      Are you aware if there's a window similar to the Westermarck effect of time after which an older male isn't able to attach to a younger child in the same way? 'Cause this has, um, pretty sort of positive connotations for stepdads-

    2. DS

      Hmm. Mm

    3. CW

      ... uh, because it suggests that you can bond pretty much just as, apart from the cognitive realization like this isn't mine-

    4. DS

      Yeah

    5. CW

      ... uh, if you spend enough time with baby on chest-

    6. DS

      Yeah

    7. CW

      ... you're probably gonna get locked in. But especially with stepdads and maybe fathers that are absent or are working-

    8. DS

      Yeah

    9. CW

      ... or whatever, they might not be as available during those years.

    10. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. CW

      And I have to assume, like if I hang around with a 21-year-old dude lots and empathize and care for him, I'm probably not gonna see him as my son just like out of the gates.

    12. DS

      Mm.

    13. CW

      So it suggests to me that there's a kind of tail off in some way, but I mean, this is total bro science here, so-

    14. DS

      Yeah

    15. CW

      ... this, this makes me feel a little-

    16. DS

      [laughs] That's the bro science

    17. CW

      It's the bro science hat.

    18. DS

      Yeah.

    19. CW

      Um, but you understand what I mean.

    20. DS

      Yeah.

    21. CW

      Have you got any, any insight around whether that's true or not?

    22. DS

      Yeah. It's a really interesting question, sort of at what point do you maybe miss that opportunity to bond? And I think what's key is that you have a front row seat to a child's development during some critical period. However, I think we often overemphasize early infancy, and there's this idea that if we miss the first hour after birth or the first three days after birth or the first month, that we've somehow missed our chance to bond, and that's not really true, right?

    23. CW

      Mm.

    24. DS

      We know that adoptive parents and stepparents can have profound connections with their kids. I grew up with a stepdad who I met when I was nine, and he ended up being a really formative influence in my life. And, and so I think it depends on when the dad comes into the picture and what kind of work and practice he's willing to put in to make that connection. But I would say as long as there's any stretch of a child's youth that-

    25. CW

      Mm

    26. DS

      ... a dad is witnessing and participating in, he can play a role as a parent.

  13. 38:50 – 46:44

    How Fatherhood Changes Male Hormones

    1. CW

      What about impacts on hormones in men?

    2. DS

      Yeah. So we see changes in testosterone around the birth of a new baby. We don't know as much about how hormones change in adoptive or stepparents because there just isn't a lot of research about this. Most of the work is on early parenthood, and it- most of it is focusing on biological parents.

    3. CW

      Hmm. So testosterone gets tuned down.

    4. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      Does that increase with caregiving?

    6. DS

      Yes.

    7. CW

      In fact, does that happen without caregiving?

    8. DS

      No.

    9. CW

      Right.

    10. DS

      So it's linked, as are the brain changes, to dad's participation in care.

    11. CW

      Okay.

    12. DS

      So we see this not just in humans. We see this in animal models as well. You are probably familiar with the challenge hypothesis, the idea that we want high levels of testosterone under certain circumstances. It's adaptive for testosterone to drop in other circumstances.

    13. CW

      Hmm.

    14. DS

      So birds are the classic example. Testosterone levels rise at the start of breeding season when birds are competing for mates. They're looking to spread their seed. They want as many opportunities as possible, so they need status to try to find a partner. And then after mating has been accomplished, it's immunologically costly to maintain perpetually high levels of T. Testosterone naturally decreases-

    15. CW

      Hmm

    16. DS

      ... and the reproductive strategy is shifting towards more nurturing. So instead of maximizing our numbers of babies that we can produce, we wanna maximize the odds that any given baby is gonna survive.

    17. CW

      Mm. Mm-hmm.

    18. DS

      And our hormones kind of follow suit.

    19. CW

      Hmm.

    20. DS

      And you see it in primates. You see it in rodents as well as in humans. You see these natural shifts.

    21. CW

      What, what are the behavior changes that happen in men based on their hormones?

    22. DS

      So typically when testosterone decreases, it's serving a function whereby dads are getting more invested in the partner relationship. They are more interested, more motivated to maintain a stable pair bond, and they're less aggressive. So a lot of the work in, in rodents has looked at sort of territorial aggression, and, you know, when you see a new pup in the nest, do you wanna kill them or do you wanna care for them? And testosterone levels can sort of modulate where you end up-

    23. CW

      Hmm

    24. DS

      ... a- along that continuum. So we want, in general, if anyone is spending a lot of time with infants, to be less motivated to kill and more motivated to care.

    25. CW

      Risk-taking behavior as well?

    26. DS

      Goes down.

    27. CW

      Yeah.

    28. DS

      And you see that... You, you know, you, you see actually in some ways health improvements. We, we can talk about dad bod at some point, I'm sure. But, uh, you see some health improvements in terms of less risky driving, less likely to get into fights-

    29. CW

      Hmm

    30. DS

      ... lower levels of substance use, being more conscientious about doctor checkups. So all of those behaviors that keep us alive-

  14. 46:44 – 50:25

    Why Becoming a Father Is the Ultimate Masculine Role

    1. DS

      Yeah.

    2. CW

      So yeah, I guess testosterone-

    3. DS

      Yeah

    4. CW

      ... drops when men become engaged fathers, right?

    5. DS

      Yeah, yeah.

    6. CW

      So some men will hear that and think, "Okay, so fatherhood makes you less of a man."

    7. DS

      Right.

    8. CW

      Do you think that the fear of losing masculinity by caregiving is actually driving avoidant fatherhood in some ways maybe?

    9. DS

      Uh, this was something I worried about when writing this book and trying to summarize the science around fatherhood, is that the subtitle I joked for a while would be Fatherhood Gives You a Smaller Brain, Makes You Sleepier, Sadder, Fatter, and Have Lower Testosterone, But It's Really Good.

    10. CW

      Jared.

    11. DS

      It'll give you... [laughs] No. So that, I don't think that would-

    12. CW

      [laughs]

    13. DS

      That wouldn't sell very many books.

    14. CW

      Yeah. Yeah.

    15. DS

      And we've talked about some of the benefits of fatherhood, like an increased sense of meaning and purpose and neuroprotection in late life. I would argue that being a good dad is one of the most manly things you can do. You're literally rearing the next generation. You're guiding them, you're protecting them, you're inspiring them, you're teaching them. So when you think about what is masculinity for, I would argue that in some ways it's for your ability to be a good dad. So I think we confuse, like, just having a certain hormone level equals masculinity, and I would counterargue it's more about what is your social role and how are you showing up to do the things that are needed of you.

    16. CW

      And what is your definition of success?

    17. DS

      Exactly.

    18. CW

      Especially there's a more... I'm gonna put... It's a, it's a more controversial area-

    19. DS

      [laughs]

    20. CW

      ... uh, to talk about. But if you were to say for women, what is your definition of success? I think mum brain is seen as quite a big loss-

    21. DS

      Hmm

    22. CW

      ... by a lot of women. "Well, I'm, uh, executively less competent. My ability to remember, maybe I was a, a, an assistant or a teacher or, or a, a, someone who worked in marketing or whatever, and I can't hold on to the ideas in the way that I used to." And you say, "Well, that looks like a massive loss in all of the ways that society says that a woman should be successful."

    23. DS

      Hmm.

    24. CW

      Apart from the one that's most important, which is being a good mum.

    25. DS

      Yeah.

    26. CW

      And it's all about definition of success, and if you're in a meritocratic capitalist world that says your ability to produce economically and to rise up through the ladder of status and prestige and socioeconomic hierarchy, that's your primary goal, that's exactly what you bring to the world- Yeah, that looks like a loss. Apart from the fact that your kid is happier and you're more in tune with them and more in love with them and-- So again, it's the same thing as the, as the dad masculinity conversation. I just think it's a, it's a bit more of a minefield.

    27. DS

      No, I think you're right. I think we, we undervalue care, and we don't prioritize it as a public social good, which it certainly is. And I think as a result, we have this whole discourse around bouncing back after baby. You know, how quickly can you get your pre-baby body back? How quickly can you get your pre-baby brain back? And in fact, it's supposed to be transformative. You have a whole new role to play, and I think we want to celebrate that.

    28. CW

      It's a weird kind of denial of the preciousness of parenthood.

    29. DS

      Yeah.

    30. CW

      It's a real middle finger to that-

  15. 50:25 – 53:19

    Does Dad Brain Get Worse With More Kids?

    1. DS

      That's right

    2. CW

      ... does the dad brain and the mum brain, does that happen again and again? Does it re-kick start? Do you regrow? How does, how do multiple children play into this?

    3. DS

      So there's some really interesting new research about this, and I should preface by saying the research literature is really scant. Part of why I wrote the book is 'cause I want more studies to get funded and more studies to get done in both dads and moms. So there's one study that I know of that looks at what happens to the brain when you have a second kid. It was done in moms. It was done in the Netherlands. And what happens is the brain shrinks again, but it actually shrinks in some different ways and in some different places. So there's some rebound, so we actually think maternal brain change, and I'm guessing paternal brain change too when we have more longitudinal data points, is actually U-shaped. So you lose volume, and then you regain some volume.

    4. CW

      It would be adaptive.

    5. DS

      Which is adaptive, exactly, 'cause you don't necessarily wanna end up with a much smaller brain after having had many more kids.

    6. CW

      Hmm.

    7. DS

      So you get some rebound, but then-

    8. CW

      Have ten kids and you can't function-

    9. DS

      Yeah

    10. CW

      ... the kids are looking after you.

    11. DS

      Yeah, you're walking around like the guy in Beetlejuice with the tiny, shrunken head, right?

    12. CW

      [laughs]

    13. DS

      Um, yeah, you don't want that to happen. But you end up actually where you lose gray matter volume with a second pregnancy is actually in areas that are tied more to m- deploying, uh, let's see. What's a good way to say this? Like managing multiple inputs. So those are areas that if you streamline and tune them, they're actually salient for taking care of multiple kids. So it's kind of like task switching-

    14. CW

      Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

    15. DS

      ... and being oriented cognitively to variable demands. Those are the places where you see that sharpening of functioning-

    16. CW

      You know what I would love-

    17. DS

      ... in second-time moms.

    18. CW

      You know what I'd love to see? I'd love to see a comparison between that and mothers who have twins or triplets.

    19. DS

      Yeah. I don't know of any-

    20. CW

      Wouldn't that be so cool?

    21. DS

      Yes, and the studies unfortunately exclude twin and triplet moms because they're gonna add too much complexity.

    22. CW

      Yeah.

    23. DS

      But it's a really-

    24. CW

      If you did a study specifically on them-

    25. DS

      It's a really interesting paradigm, right? 'Cause you kinda get double the dose of parenting experience, and you get more parenting hormones too.

    26. CW

      Yeah. Do you have, yeah, more time on skin? I mean-

    27. DS

      Yeah

    28. CW

      ... both dad and mum will be-

    29. DS

      Yeah

    30. CW

      ... really at the upper limit of that one to two point five percent range.

  16. 53:19 – 1:00:48

    How Daughters Change Fathers

    1. CW

      Uh, I read about the daughter effect.

    2. DS

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      Is that real?

    4. DS

      Which-- Say, say what you mean by it.

    5. CW

      When, uh, fathers have daughters, their behavior changes in unique ways that wouldn't have done with a son.

    6. DS

      Yeah. So I'm glad you asked that because my lab literally just wrote a paper over the weekend. We do these paper-in-a-day retreats where we all get together and we write chunks of a paper together. And we looked at how men's behavior and well-being and hormones change when they have either a son or a daughter. So we found that when men have daughters, and this is from our longitudinal sample, they show more of a drop in testosterone across the transition to that parenthood.

    7. CW

      Hmm.

    8. DS

      And they also spend less time caring for their babies, and they report more parenting stress and worse bonding. So it's kind of bad news for girls, actually. Uh, and we need to figure out what modulates that-

    9. CW

      Hmm, hmm

    10. DS

      ... and, you know, how to offset it. But it suggests that when men are expecting girls, they might be in need of some additional coaching and preparation to figure out how they can show up as effective parents.

    11. CW

      Does the sex of the baby change how the brain adapts in the other direction, then?

    12. DS

      So we don't know because there haven't been enough studies of this. I've looked at this a little bit in our data, and-

    13. CW

      Should be pretty easy to do, right?

    14. DS

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      Was it boy? Was it girl?

    16. DS

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      Compare groups.

    18. DS

      But you're cutting your sample in half.

    19. CW

      Yeah.

    20. DS

      So if you already have an underpowered sample, then you know you're losing your ability to pick up on effects.

    21. CW

      Put the hat on and just throw some-

    22. DS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    23. CW

      ... some hypotheses out there. Doesn't matter.

    24. DS

      Be like, "Let's just take our best guess."

    25. CW

      Fuck it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    26. DS

      Yeah. I, um, I know of a, a little bit of work suggesting that it shifts, uh, certain brain responses. Like I think, um, there was a study, actually it was done at Emory in Atlanta, that found that, uh, the, the brain was more primed to happy facial expressions from girls and distressed expressions from boys, and so there were some different patterns of brain responses. But the literature's tiny. We don't know a lot about those kind of sex-

    27. CW

      Wow

    28. DS

      ... specific effects in the brain.

    29. CW

      In other news, Shopify powers ten percent of all e-commerce companies in the US. They are the driving force behind Gymshark and Skims and Alo and- Neutonic, which is why I partnered with them, because when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best in class. Their checkout is thirty-six percent better on average compared to other leading commerce platforms, and with Shop Pay, you can boost conversions up to fifty percent. Basically, you didn't get into business to learn how to code or build a website or deal with the inventory stuff, bullshit on the back end. You just want to get down to creating and promoting an awesome product. And Shopify takes all of the mess off your hands and allows you to focus on the job you actually came here to do, designing and selling the thing that you love. So upgrade your business and get the same checkout that we use with Neutonic with Shopify. Right now, you can sign up for a one dollar per month trial period by going to the link in the description below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom, all lowercase. That's shopify.com/modernwisdom. Do we think the, uh, increase reduction of testosterone w- around girls is because rough and tumble play more protection needed for child? But it's interesting, right? Because you would also assume that the small boy would become physically stronger sooner-

    30. DS

      Hmm

  17. 1:00:48 – 1:03:43

    Does Housework Ruin Cortisol Recovery?

    1. CW

      of hilarious.

    2. DS

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      Uh, what was the housework and cortisol research?

    4. DS

      So this was work I did in my graduate training. Uh, this was part of my dissertation. So we looked at dual income couples who were followed around their homes for a week. This was like a week in the life study of these middle class couples in LA, and we recorded how much time they were spending in common household activities. So we looked at housework time, leisure time, childcare time, other kinds of activities. I found that housework is bad for your health, which I think anyone could have told you. So the more time you spend doing housework On, you know, as part of a typical week-

    5. CW

      Hmm

    6. DS

      ... the less cortisol recovery you have at the end of the day. So we looked at the magnitude of cortisol change from the afternoon into the evening, and you want this drop in cortisol levels at the end of the day. So cortisol has a diurnal rhythm.

    7. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    8. DS

      Has kind of a circadian pattern. You want to start high, and you want to end low. And when people were doing more housework in the evenings, they had less of that nader that they were hitting at bedtime. And we also found that, uh, when you entered moms' and dads' time used together in the same model, moms benefited in terms of their cortisol when dads were doing more housework, and dads benefited when they had more leisure time and their partners had less leisure time.

    9. CW

      Hmm.

    10. DS

      So kind of a mixed bag of results where it's sort of, you know, if you're a mom, you want your partner to be helping with housework, and if you're a dad, you want to be sitting back and relaxing while your partner is taking care of business.

    11. CW

      Hmm. It's a bit zero sum in a way.

    12. DS

      Yeah. Yeah, it's sort of depressing.

    13. CW

      Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, it is.

    14. DS

      [laughs]

    15. CW

      What's stress contagion?

    16. DS

      So stress contagion is when couples influence each other's hormone levels. So I've found that you see linked cortisol levels in cohabitating couples, and I've looked at this in moms and dads. I've also looked at this in non-parent male and female couples. So when one person has higher cortisol, their partner has higher than usual cortisol as well. And it seems like when the relationship quality is compromised, when you have more conflict, you have more tightly linked patterns of cortisol. So people are actually increasing each other's stress-

    17. CW

      Hmm

    18. DS

      ... rather than helping to balance or modulate it.

    19. CW

      How do you fix that?

    20. DS

      You help people communicate better and fight more effectively so that they can calm each other down rather than amp each other u- u- up.

    21. CW

      Right.

    22. DS

      I think when you're frustrated and stressed and you have a partner who's exacerbating that, it's very hard to recover. If you have a partner who can help to talk you down and sort of balance out your irritated state with a calm state, then you can better recover in terms of your biology.

  18. 1:03:43 – 1:15:29

    Do Dads Experience Postpartum Depression?

    1. CW

      Hmm. What are the downsides of fatherhood for men?

    2. DS

      Well, we talked about already, you know, weight gain. Um, we talked about testosterone changes. There are also increased vulnerability to mood disorders. So the prevalence of depression in new dads is about twice that of the general population. There's a lot of controversy about whether we call it postpartum depression in dads. A lot of-

    3. CW

      I've observed this. In, in your opinion-

    4. DS

      Yes

    5. CW

      ... do dads get postpartum depression?

    6. DS

      So in the book, I say I think perinatal depression is a better word. That just means around the birth of a baby.

    7. CW

      Okay.

    8. DS

      But to me, it's semantic. It doesn't matter that much whether we call it postpartum or perinatal. I think some people really are attached to the idea of postpartum really means having given birth. That's not really what the term means. It just means occurring after the birth of a baby. And the fact is that a lot of the risk factors for depression are shared by new moms and new dads.

    9. CW

      Hmm.

    10. DS

      You've got stress, you've got disrupted sleep, you've got relationship conflict, you've got new responsibilities, identity crisis, hormone changes, brain changes. So even though you're not the person that's phylli- physically delivered an infant, you are still experiencing a lot of the same overlapping risks.

    11. CW

      What does postpartum mean?

    12. DS

      So it just means after the birth of a baby. The time period-

    13. CW

      Not after your birth of a baby.

    14. DS

      Yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean that you-

    15. CW

      So it is a gender-neutral term.

    16. DS

      Yeah, it's a gender-neutral term. It doesn't necessarily mean that you birthed the baby.

    17. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    18. DS

      It just means the time period that falls after the birth of a baby. That said, I don't want to antagonize the moms who keep coming into my Instagram, uh, comments to get mad at me for talking about postpartum depression, 'cause I understand, you know, I, there is-

    19. CW

      Well, what are they mad about? Are they mad about the fact that this is our term? Like, we want it to be, it needs to be, like, paternal postpartum depression also. It needs some sort of a qualifier on it. It sounds to me like, and I saw a bunch of comments on Instagram talking about the same thing.

    20. DS

      Hmm.

    21. CW

      Uh, it's not about this is a term that we care about. It... My best reading of it, right?

    22. DS

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    23. CW

      And this is me trying to steelman it as best I can.

    24. DS

      Yeah.

    25. CW

      The process of childbirth for a woman is so arduous and traumatic and scary that any man who appears to be flippant or dismissive or to kind of liken the challenge that he goes through to the one that the mom goes through-

    26. DS

      Hmm

    27. CW

      ... that is seen as being very callous and, and it doesn't fully appreciate or understand the sacrifice of a, of a mom. I think that's the best reading of it.

    28. DS

      Yeah. I think that's a good reading. I think another piece of that-

    29. CW

      That's me with my peaceful hat on.

    30. DS

      Yes. Where's your peaceful hat?

  19. 1:15:29 – 1:18:55

    Why Postpartum Depression Happens in Women

    1. CW

      Why-- I- is there an adaptive explanation for postpartum depression in women?

    2. DS

      So I actually think probably not. I think it's more of a sign of an evolutionary cultural mismatch.

    3. CW

      Okay.

    4. DS

      Which is this, going back to this idea that we as humans are cooperative breeders, and we evolve to have a lot of support around caregiving. So we evolve to trade off care, to share care with people in the community, with our kin. I think we now place a lot of pressure on individual parents and on the individual nuclear family to serve the roles that dozens of people used to serve-

    5. CW

      Yeah, yeah

    6. DS

      ... when there was a lot more proximity and people helped each other out a lot more with care. So we isolate new parents. We don't value their work. We've already talked about, you know, the incentives of a very late capitalist society where we want people to be ambitious drivers, and we want them to move on quickly from this interruption of birth.

    7. CW

      Mm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    8. DS

      And, and so we're not providing the support. You know, in this country, we don't have universal paid maternity leave-

    9. CW

      Yeah

    10. DS

      ... or paternity leave.

    11. CW

      Yeah.

    12. DS

      So a lot of women go back to work probably before they feel like they're ready. A lot of men do too. We don't give inadequate, or we don't give adequate time and protection.

    13. CW

      Right.

    14. DS

      And we, you know, we create an uphill battle where parents feel isolated and drained.

    15. CW

      So, uh, is there any evidence of postpartum in hunter-gatherer societies?

    16. DS

      Not that I know of, but I'm also not sure how well it's been tracked or measured.

    17. CW

      Yep, okay.

    18. DS

      But I think it's a-

    19. CW

      I'm trying to see if this mismatch hypothesis-

    20. DS

      Yeah

    21. CW

      ... kind of can just be split tested across, like, civilizations.

    22. DS

      Yeah. I mean, I, I think it's a really, really interesting question, and depression in general, you know, hasn't been observed as much in those populations. So it's a really interesting question. But, you know, in hunter-gatherer societies, when a woman becomes a mother, she becomes, if anything, more socially integrated into-

    23. CW

      Yeah

    24. DS

      ... the life of the community. In contemporary society, when a woman becomes a mother, she often becomes more isolated. We have all of these public spaces that, you know, don't bring the baby to a wedding. Don't bring the baby to a restaurant. Don't bring the baby to a cafe.

    25. CW

      To work.

    26. DS

      People don't want to-- Yeah, to work, right? Like, a hunter-gatherer mom can actually still go to work. She can still be wearing the baby. She can function economically.

    27. CW

      Swaddle up, grab some berries.

    28. DS

      Yeah.

    29. CW

      Had a good day in the office.

    30. DS

      She can occupy a, a high status social role.

  20. 1:18:55 – 1:31:09

    How to Support a Partner Through Postpartum Depression

    1. DS

      to hone those skills.

    2. CW

      What-- I'm interested, what do you think is the best advice for dads, like, trying to be great father, great husband, still take care of themselves while supporting a mom who's going through postpartum?

    3. DS

      Give yourself grace. Don't expect that it will be easy. Forewarned is forearmed. So, you know, know that this is gonna rock your world, and it's gonna be transformative, but it's supposed to be transformative. And I would say steer away from the myth that dads don't have any innate wiring to know how to take care of a baby. I think we have this idea that moms are just born knowing what to do when a baby arrives, and men are gonna be helpless and useless.

    4. CW

      Does that help moms postpartum?

    5. DS

      I don't think so because I will say when I had my kids, I was like, "What am I supposed to do with these people?" You know, you have to learn, and you figure it out, and it's about your motivation and your willingness to practice more than it's about Just, you know, having some inborn reflex that's telling you how to care for a child.

    6. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    7. DS

      And dads have that capacity to care and to build those empathetic, responsive, caregiving brains.

    8. CW

      I've got two potential hypotheses in my mind. Uh, first one is, like, postpartum contagion.

    9. DS

      Hmm.

    10. CW

      Uh, I have to assume that if the mum is dealing with it, it's more likely that the dad's going to deal with it.

    11. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. CW

      But I wonder if level of paternal child caring decreases the likelihood of, uh, female postpartum depression.

    13. DS

      Yeah.

    14. CW

      Uh, do we know, do we know what levels of household setup can increase or decrease the likelihood?

    15. DS

      So there is some research on this, and it corroborates both of your hunches. So-

    16. CW

      Dude, don't test me

    17. DS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    18. CW

      Don't test me on this shit

    19. DS

      So you can keep the, the-

    20. CW

      Bro science hat

    21. DS

      ... bro science hat off.

    22. CW

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    23. DS

      Yeah, you don't need it.

    24. CW

      Yeah. Good.

    25. DS

      Um, good instincts. But there's research that depressive symptoms are correlated within moms and dads.

    26. CW

      Yeah.

    27. DS

      So if Mom is more depressed, Dad's more likely to be depressed. If Dad's depressed, Mom's more likely to be depressed. And if one partner is well and can support the other partner, that's also a huge resilience factor.

    28. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    29. DS

      That's a buffer.

    30. CW

      Mm-hmm.

  21. 1:31:09 – 1:34:19

    The Worst Advice New Dads Hear

    1. DS

      They're not about caring for someone who's vulnerable. And I would say when you think about what makes life worth living, a lot of it is about our relationship health. You know, that's what the best studies of longevity have told us. That's what work on men has told us, that, you know, when men are socially isolated in late life, that's a real risk factor for early mortality.

    2. CW

      Hmm.

    3. DS

      So how can men get more connected? Well, part of it is by devoting yourself to learning how to care for other people. And so again, going back to this idea of how do we reframe masculinity in more pro-social ways, it's manly to take care of vulnerable people.

    4. CW

      Well, I hope that when baby life does begin for me, that everybody is ready for me to shove it down their throat for ages.

    5. DS

      I can't wait.

    6. CW

      It's just gonna be an endless, end-- like a, a sickening barrage of fatherhood content. I can't wait. It's gonna be, it's gonna be fantastic.

    7. DS

      You're gonna be the new Dr. Becky.

    8. CW

      Uh, that's... Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs] We'll see about that. Um, what do you think is the worst advice that new dads get?

    9. DS

      Well, we already talked about, you know, you can fix your relationship by having a baby, so definitely that's very bad advice.

    10. CW

      It's the worst advice that potential-

    11. DS

      Yes. [laughs]

    12. CW

      ... dads could get. Yeah, yeah.

    13. DS

      I think other bad advice is just, you know, dads don't know what they're doing, so keep your distance, and I think there are these preconceptions around should we invest in paternity leave for new dads? Well, dads are useless in the early months. These- they've got nothing to contribute.

    14. CW

      Hmm.

    15. DS

      And I think that is bad advice because, as with moms, dads are capable of learning, and their neurobiology is gonna come along for the ride as they learn how to take care of kids. I think the other thing is we sometimes privilege early infancy as the sort of only time for dads to shine, and I talked to Richard Reeves, who's written a lot about healthy masculinity. He said w- he thinks that men should be able to take paternity leave up to their kid's 14th or maybe even 18th birthday.

    16. CW

      Yeah. Well, there's some roles, especially for dads with girls around puberty-

    17. DS

      Yeah

    18. CW

      ... that are more important-

    19. DS

      Yeah

    20. CW

      ... than perhaps in early life.

    21. DS

      Yeah. And he told me he was a stay-at-home dad to his sons for a period when they were school age, and that was a great experience, and he loves taking his kids on trips and excursions. And so I think there's a lot of value that dads can add at different stages along the lifespan.

    22. CW

      Hmm.

    23. DS

      And I think when we decide that men don't know what they're doing and we kinda opt them out of a key parenting role, we're losing that opportunity, and we're not giving them the windows in which to build their competence.

    24. CW

      I love it. Darby Saxbe, ladies and gentlemen. You're great. I love your work. I think it's fantastic. It's brave to do this stuff and to talk about it, and I think the world's a better place for having you in it, so I appreciate you.

    25. DS

      Thank you. A real pleasure talking to you.

    26. CW

      All right. Goodbye, everybody. Yes, you did it.

    27. DS

      Yay. Fun. That was great. [outro music]

    28. CW

      Congratulations. You made it to the end of a full podcast episode. You are not so TikTok brained that you've completely dissolved into nothingness. Why not watch another one? Right here. Go on, press it.

Episode duration: 1:34:20

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode nR3ge9B6JG4

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

iOSAndroidClaudeChrome