Zuby | Strength, Faith and Survival Tactics

Zuby 0:00 ... on my Twitter account, @zubymusic. I posted up a nine-second video of me doing a deadlift in the gym. I was lifting 230 kilograms. It's actually well below my maximum, but I just, uh, had a clip of me doing it on my phone. And I posted it up with a caption saying, "I keep hearing about how there's no biological difference between men and women in 2019, so watch me destroy the British women's deadlift record without trying." And then I wrote, "P.S. I identified as a woman while lifting the weight, so don't be a bigot." And this tweet caught absolute fire. It went hyper viral. It's got 1.7 million views on the original video. I think it got about 55,000 likes and 20-something thousand retweets. It just went nuts. It went viral in the UK, in Canada, in America, i- in Europe (laughs) , like all, all over the world.

Chris Williamson 0:52 I am joined by the strongest female deadlift champion on the internet. Zuby, welcome to the show.

Zuby 0:59 How's it going, Chris? How you doing?

Chris Williamson 1:00 Fantastic to have you on, man. Recently spoke to Brian Carroll, who is a multiple record holder in powerlifting for men, and now speaking to one for women as well.

Zuby 1:09 That's right, man. Deadlift and bench press, 84 kg weight class. Women's, of course.

Chris Williamson 1:14 How heavy is the squat? What have you got to get your squat to?

Zuby 1:17 Man, I haven't squatted properly for, for ages because of, uh, an injury that's been harassing me for literally about five years now. But, uh, my personal best on the squat is 190 and I believe the women's record in my weight class is about 210, something like that.

Chris Williamson 1:32 A little bit of work and you've got the total as well (laughs) .

Zuby 1:35 Yeah, man. I, I think, I think I could do it. I could def- can completely annihilate the deadlift and the bench press ones.

Chris Williamson 1:41 (laughs) .

Zuby 1:41 But, um, the squat'll take a little bit of work.

Chris Williamson 1:43 I got you. Uh, so for everyone who's listening who doesn't have a clue what we're talking about, can you take us through what's, what's happened over the last few months of your life?

Zuby 1:52 Yeah. The last few months have been quite the whirlwind. So, um, going back to February now, at the end of February, on my Twitter account, @zubymusic, I posted up a nine-second video of me doing a deadlift in the gym. I was lifting 230 kilograms, which is 500 and something pounds. Um, it's actually well below my maximum, but I just, uh, had a clip of me doing it on my phone. And I posted it up with a caption saying, "I keep hearing about how there's no biological difference between men and women in 2019, so watch me destroy the British women's deadlift record without trying." Uh, and then I wrote, "P.S. I identified as a woman while lifting the weight, so don't be a bigot."

Chris Williamson 2:31 (laughs) .

Zuby 2:31 And this tweet caught absolute fire. It went hyper viral. It's got 1.7 million views on the original video. I think it got about 55,000 likes and 20-something thousand retweets. It just went nuts. It went viral in the UK, in Canada, in America, i- in Europe (laughs) , like all, all over the world. Um, and then newspapers and media started picking up on it. It was covered by Fox News, The Daily Wire, Sky News, BBC, um, a whole bunch of different outlets, and then a bunch of podcasts such as Louder With Crowder, The Ben Shapiro Show, um, and the one that really catalyzed a few things, which was The Joe Rogan Experience. Yeah. So it just, uh, it just went bonkers. At the time I tweeted it, I had 17,000 followers. And, uh, as of this week, I'm the proud owner of over 100... Well, I don't wanna say owner. I'm the proud, uh...

Chris Williamson 3:27 (laughs) .

Zuby 3:27 What's the, what's the, what's the right term?

Chris Williamson 3:29 I think it's owner.

Zuby 3:30 Is it owner?

Chris Williamson 3:30 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zuby 3:31 Okay. Yeah. Well, I have over 100,000 Twitter followers now. So it's increased just crazily this year, as well as my, my YouTube audience and my podcast audience and my music listeners. Everything I do has just, um, exploded. It was a real catalyst for everything I do, which is awesome, but also kind of ridiculous.

Chris Williamson 3:49 (laughs) Yeah, no. This kind of real asymmetry with viral content and stuff like that is a... it's a real blessing when you get it right. And what's hilarious is the fact that this is you working up to like an RP7.

Zuby 4:04 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 4:04 That's like, that's like, that's like a comfortable 75% pull. Um, I don't know whether anyone's discussed this yet, but we have, we've had a number of debates on the podcast about whether pulling sumo is cheating or not.

Zuby 4:16 No, it's not.

Chris Williamson 4:17 Sumo's not cheating?

Zuby 4:18 It's not, it's, it's not even easier for everybody.

Chris Williamson 4:20 Well, there we go. We've heard it, we've heard it here first.

Zuby 4:21 I, I mean if it were e- if it were easy, when people say it's easier, I'm like, "Then why don't you pull it?"

Chris Williamson 4:26 (laughs) Yeah.

Zuby 4:26 Because it's, it's co- it's competition legal.

Chris Williamson 4:28 Yeah.

Zuby 4:29 So if, if it were easier, every single powerlifter would pull sumo, but they don't. So...

Chris Williamson 4:34 Agreed.

Zuby 4:35 It's kind of silly logic to even say that.

Chris Williamson 4:37 Uh-

Zuby 4:37 I mean, it, it depends on how you're built. For some people it is easier.

Chris Williamson 4:39 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 4:40 But, um, not for everybody or every... I mean, if you even look at the sort of World's Strongest Men guys, most of them don't pull sumo.

Chris Williamson 4:46 Yeah.

Zuby 4:47 Um-

Chris Williamson 4:47 Interesting, isn't it?

Zuby 4:48 Yeah. Most, most of them don't. It really depends on your build, your sort of leg to arm ratio, your hips, all that kind of stuff, so...

Chris Williamson 4:55 Yeah. We've got a very tall co-host on the show, Johnny, who pulls 310 and, um, in the 103s, 105s, whatever it is, he pulls sumo, but we, we just wind him up by saying it's sometimes cheaper.

Zuby 5:06 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 5:07 It's easy 'cause you got your legs apart.

Zuby 5:08 I can do- I can do both, by the way.

Chris Williamson 5:09 Yeah.

Zuby 5:10 Just if anyone wondering.

Chris Williamson 5:11 Nice. That's funny. So-

Zuby 5:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:13 ... this has happened. It's absolutely exploded. And what has that done in terms of exposure for your content now? Because having a look through your Twitter, and I strongly advise everyone who's listening to go and check out @zubymusic because it is... the caliber of that content doesn't smack of someone who only had sort of 17,000 followers a, a few months ago. It's very insightful, very well curated for Twitter, bulleted lists, some, some very nice sort of social commentary, all that sort of stuff. So what was the grind up to that point? What was happening up to there?

Zuby 5:49 Wow. Well, so I'm a professional rapper. I'm an independent musician. I've been doing it full time since 2011, but I've been rapping since 2006. So...If you go on my Twitter profile, you'll see my Twitter's been active since July 2009. And before that, I was on Facebook and YouTube, and before that I was on MySpace, if you wanna take it back to the beginning.

Chris Williamson 6:10 (laughs)

Zuby 6:11 So I've been, um, I've been active on social media for a, a very long time. I've been building my audience for a long time, primarily through my music and my, my gigs and my concerts and selling CDs, traveling all around the UK. Whether that's down in Bournemouth or the Isle of Wight or up in Newcastle or Glasgow, I've been to every city in the UK multiple times, doing shows, selling my CDs, talking to people, just promoting my music. So that was the thing that I was initially known for, and that's the main way that I built up my organic audience. So it's been a really long grind to get to where things are. I mean, I've released five albums and three EPs. I've got eight releases in total out there. Those are all available on iTunes and Spotify and all that. Um, sold over 25,000 albums out of my backpack, just traveling around the UK. Put out a ridiculous number of ... I mean, I've got 55,000 tweets on my, just on my Twitter.

Chris Williamson 7:06 Yeah.

Zuby 7:06 And then crazy amounts of content on Facebook and YouTube and all these different places. So it's all been, um ... I mean, it, it's been great because, 'cause I laid such a strong foundation, it meant that when that tweet went viral, people ... I- it meant two things, or maybe more than two things. Number one is that people came and a lot of them stayed, because they realized that I had a lot more to offer beyond just one funny, s- kind of silly tweet. Right? People go viral all the time on Twitter, but they don't have 100,000 followers, because the tweet goes viral, but then people go to the page and there's nothing particularly interesting there beyond that one-off funny tweet. So people don't really follow or people disappear. With mine, you know, people came and then they were like, "Oh. Oh, he's a rapper. Oh, his music is actually good. Oh, he's a, he does podcasts. Oh, he's, oh, I, I like his podcast. Oh, he's got interesting stuff to say and he's funny." So a lot of people came and they stayed. Um, and then also it just meant that I've been able to deal with some of the craziness. Um, you know, the ma- massive amount of love and attention, massive amounts of hate and criticism. I've been dealing with both of these things as a professional musician for well over a decade. So I'm kind of seasoned to it. All that's happened is that the volume has increased-

Chris Williamson 8:27 Yeah.

Zuby 8:27 ... which is, uh, something I'm still adjusting to, and the volume is gonna increase again. So in a way, it's kind of what I wanted. It's just, it's just odd how it happened.

Chris Williamson 8:37 Yeah.

Zuby 8:37 You know, that, that was ... Of all the content I've put out there-

Chris Williamson 8:39 (laughs)

Zuby 8:40 ... of all the things I've done, of all the money I've spent, of all the traveling I've done-

Chris Williamson 8:44 Yeah.

Zuby 8:44 ... the idea that it was that ridiculous tweet that didn't even have anything to do with my music-

Chris Williamson 8:48 Yeah.

Zuby 8:49 ... that opened so many people up to who I am and what I do, that, eh, you know, it's, it's been very bizarre. But, um, I'm thankful for it.

Chris Williamson 8:58 Yeah. When you're grinding away five years ago, 10 years ago in a studio in the arse end of London somewhere trying to get the same verse 20 times, and then all you should have really been doing is just working on your sumo deadlift form and ... (laughs)

Zuby 9:12 (laughs) Well, one of my friends, one of my friends, Jose, made a really good point. He said, "You know what, man? It took you 15 years of training to even make that video."

Chris Williamson 9:21 Nice. That's a good point.

Zuby 9:22 Right? So he was like, "You know, it ... that wasn't an overnight ... Like, most people cannot lift what you just lifted, so most people would not be able to even make that video."

Chris Williamson 9:31 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 9:31 So I was like, "Actually, you know, when you, when you think of it that way, that does make a lot of sense." It's quite a, it's quite a good metaphor, I guess-

Chris Williamson 9:38 You know.

Zuby 9:38 ... in way that it can look like something just, "Oh, I'm just gonna do this thing," but it's actually not a lot of people are able to do that thing, 'cause they didn't put in the groundwork beforehand. So what might be easier for that one person ... Just like the guy you were talking about earlier who can squat over 1000 pounds, right? I'm sure for him doing that it's not gonna look particularly difficult, but-

Chris Williamson 9:59 Yeah.

Zuby 10:00 ... the average person cannot (laughs) <|agent|><|en|>

Chris Williamson 10:02 It's gonna end them, yeah.

Zuby 10:04 ... cannot get a ... C- cannot, could not. No, the m- average person can't even do a quarter-

Chris Williamson 10:08 Yeah.

Zuby 10:08 ... of that.

Chris Williamson 10:08 I get it.

Zuby 10:08 So yeah, yeah. So, uh, yeah, but that's h- that's how the world works, man.

Chris Williamson 10:13 I get you. So one of the quotes that I really love is, uh, "Luck equals preparation plus opportunity." And-

Zuby 10:20 Mm.

Chris Williamson 10:20 ... I think that that definitely seems to kind of be what's happened. And I know a lot of the podcasts and people that you've been on with recently have focused on the issues and what, what the actual narrative is around that, and we can go onto that in a second. But for people that are listening and, uh, you know, everyone who has upward m- some degree of upward mobility and is on that grind is hoping for that moment, right? That breakout moment. But what you've identified there I think is really interesting, which is that the same way as someone who's a stonemason working away with a hammer and a chisel, it's not the 100th strike which actually breaks the stone, it's the 99 that came before that. And you're totally correct with what you say, that it's all well and good being handed an opportunity and having this super viral moment. I th- I recently read a blog that said actually there's a fairly high likelihood of everyone, or most people, a significant mi- majority of people, going viral to one degree or another at some point now-

Zuby 11:11 Mm.

Chris Williamson 11:11 ... because of the way that degrees of separation work online. And you're like, "Okay, cool." Like, that gives you a platform and that is an opportunity. But if you are just gonna hope that that, I don't know, creates some springboard out of nowhere and there's no substance behind it, the preparation hasn't allowed you to get ready for the opportunity-

Zuby 11:29 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:29 ... there's nothing in there. So I think there's, like, a real amount of poetic justice that's kind of occurred with that.

Zuby 11:35 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 11:35 Despite the fact that obviously you've worked a lot harder on other things than pulling, like-

Zuby 11:40 Yeah (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 11:40 ... a dead- a deadlift off the floor. Um, so, eh, you know, you've had a lot of time to view this from a front row seat.

Zuby 11:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:48 What do you think that the reaction to the tweet that you put out ... What did, what do you think it says as a, as a commentary? Have you got, uh, an overall conclusion of how that, how it's made you feel or your, your sort of thoughts at the moment?

Zuby 12:05 I would say that-The thing I'm really- I've really picked up on over the last few years, but especially over the last few months as I've become, I guess, more of a public figure and a better-known person, is that there are so many people who feel silenced, shall we say.

Chris Williamson 12:28 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 12:29 So, so many people were very thankful for that tweet (laughs) . 'Cause in- they've been seeing stuff going on and they're like, "Oh my gosh. Like, things are getting absurd. Things are getting ridiculous. Objective reality is- is being disposed of," and whatever. There's millions of people around the world are feeling that, if not billions of people. And so, that tweet was just something that very- in a- in a visual way and in a satirical way, just exposed some of the silliness in the world-

Chris Williamson 13:02 Yeah.

Zuby 13:02 ... that people are aware of, right? So this whole idea of, like I said in the comment, you know, the idea of men and women not being different or having the same physical and strength capabilities, right? Some of these ideas or the idea that a man, like myself, with my beard and my muscles, can identify as a woman, and everybody is supposed to just accept that I'm a woman and not question it, and allow me to compete in women's sports and play rugby against them and box against them and lift- deadlift against them and all that, right? That- some people are saying this from an ideological perspective, trying to say that that's all fine and the vast majority of people do not agree with that. The vast majority of people are like, "No, that's ridiculous. That doesn't make sense. That's not based in reality." But for various reasons and societal pressures, they feel like they can't express that, or if they can express it, they can only do it on a very small platform or perhaps in private. So by me putting that out there, it was kind of like everybody exhaled, I think. You know, I think people were like...

Chris Williamson 14:02 (laughs)

Zuby 14:02 "Ha!"

Chris Williamson 14:03 He's the guy.

Zuby 14:04 Yeah!

Chris Williamson 14:04 He's the guy.

Zuby 14:05 Finally, somebody (laughs) ...

Chris Williamson 14:07 Yeah.

Zuby 14:07 Right? Like, finally someone just said it and showed it.

Chris Williamson 14:10 Yeah.

Zuby 14:10 Right? It's visual as well, so it's like you- I think it's one thing if you read something as- and I think the video- the video as well, just the fact that people saw it and it was a very clear rebuttal-

Chris Williamson 14:24 Yep.

Zuby 14:24 ... of these arguments that people make. 'Cause it was like, okay, no, he wasn't actually trying during that deadlift. And I'm not a professional lifter.

Chris Williamson 14:30 Yep.

Zuby 14:31 Right? I'm not- I'm not competing in powerlifting or Strongest Man or whatever. There's loads of guys who are considerably stronger than me.

Chris Williamson 14:37 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 14:37 So the fact that I, a recreational lifter, can just go and shatter the women's records-

Chris Williamson 14:42 Yeah.

Zuby 14:43 ... as could many other recreational lifters, that kind of puts a nail in the coffin of this idea of, okay, there's no physical differences. Which- which I don't even know how anyone who inhabits the real world could say to begin with. But I- I have heard these arguments. I have heard- I have seen people try to argue that, um, the reason why men are physically stronger and faster is because of socialization.

Chris Williamson 15:06 Yep.

Zuby 15:06 And if- if, um- if girls were raised differently and boys were raised differently, they'd be equally strong. And, you know, just when people say these things, I'm- I'm just kind of looking at them blankly, like, what? Like...

Chris Williamson 15:20 It's a bit like-

Zuby 15:21 I-

Chris Williamson 15:22 It reminds me a lot of The Emperor's New Clothes-

Zuby 15:24 It is.

Chris Williamson 15:24 ... this kind of situation.

Zuby 15:25 It is.

Chris Williamson 15:26 Um, I- I- mercifully, and I w- don't know if you agree, the UK, to me, seems to be at least a little bit more attached to reality than America. Now, I don't know if that's simply because most of the big publishing, uh, and social commentator platforms are coming from America-

Zuby 15:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:48 ... um, that you hear people like Loud With Crowder or Joe Rogan or Gavin McInnes or whoever it might be talking about these issues.

Zuby 15:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:55 Um, I- I haven't been personally exposed to any of it in the UK. I'm, you know, potentially.

Zuby 15:59 Oh, okay.

Chris Williamson 16:00 Potentially.

Zuby 16:00 Oh, I- I've- I've seen a lot of it here.

Chris Williamson 16:02 Really?

Zuby 16:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:03 Is that internet or real life?

Zuby 16:05 Both.

Chris Williamson 16:06 Wow. Okay.

Zuby 16:06 I mean, even in- even in the world of music.

Chris Williamson 16:09 Okay.

Zuby 16:09 Right? Because I've seen this in the world of music. I mean, a couple of weeks ago, I was filling out a form and, um, it got to the section where they compile, you know at the end of when you fill out a form and they ask you for your gender and ethnicity and that kind- I can- I can't remember what they call it, that kind of information?

Chris Williamson 16:29 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 16:30 Okay. I got to the gender section and there were about six different options in the dropdown list, or you could put other and write your own thing, and there was a little asterisk saying gender is not the same as sex. Gender is whatever you personally feel or identify as, okay? Uh, I've seen that before. I get down to ethnicity, and you can pick your own ethnicity too, all right? This is on like a professional form. And so, it says, yeah, similar- similar wording, ethnicity is not the same as race or skin color. It's- doesn't- it's not necessarily linked to your nationality or your origin. Ethnicity is defined as what you personally feel and what you personally identify as. So according to this form, I could write down that I'm a Native American woman-

Chris Williamson 17:20 (laughs)

Zuby 17:21 ... and everybody is supposed to take that 100% seriously. Um, and, you know, stuff like that, it's just... And- and, you know, there- there's- there's lots of other things that I've seen. But yeah, I mean, that was in the UK. That was UK-based, um...

Chris Williamson 17:36 Wow.

Zuby 17:36 There's quite a- there's quite a- there- there's a lot of- it's happening in the UK too.

Chris Williamson 17:40 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 17:40 It's happening in, uh, all the- the entire Anglosphere, as far as I'm aware. Uh, UK, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. I don't know if it's, um, maybe the English language, maybe 'cause we don't have, um, gendered nouns and stuff like that, so maybe it's easier for people to get away with this warping of reality. But, um, yeah, so I have seen it trickling in there. And, you know, with- with some stuff I don't re- there are certain things I don't really care about. There's lots of things that I think are silly, but it's like, whatever.

Chris Williamson 18:09 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 18:10 But, um, when certain lines start getting crossed...... then that's where I feel like people do need to step in and draw certain lines and boundaries and go, "Okay, wait, hang on. This isn't a good idea because X, Y, and Zed." You know, having- having Anthony Joshua identify as a woman and go and compete in women's boxing, that's- that's not a good idea, right? That's not- that's not good, that's not safe, that's not fair. Um, let's- let's not do that, right? But according to certain people's rules, as long as he feels that he's a woman, then according to them, that's okay. And again, it's just, no. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 18:46 Yeah. It's bizarre as well. I- I feel a lot like I'm treading on eggshells with this sort of stuff. Steve W-

Zuby 18:52 Everybody does. Everybody does.

Chris Williamson 18:53 Steve W- Yeah. Steven Woodford, the guy behind Rationality Rules, very, very big YouTube channel, philosophy YouTube channel. Do you know who, do you know who I'm referring to?

Zuby 19:01 I think I've heard of it, but I'm not familiar with the content.

Chris Williamson 19:03 Yeah. Rationality Rules is a really good YouTube channel, and this guy understands, uh, cognitive biases, uh, ethics, and philosophy to a- a degree of fidelity like pretty much probably no one el- a young guy as well, like just out of university, quarter of a mil subs, and he treads on, uh, uh, got a bit of poo on his shoe talking about transgender athletes. And as far as I could see on the video, didn't... He- he maybe didn't have wholly formed views, but it wasn't... It was in no way derogatory, as far as I could see, et cetera, et cetera, and he gets denounced by the Atheist Society of America, which is like this company that he's worked up towards for his entire life. And you're like, hang on, are you people not supposed to be the ones that are the closest to reality, the ones that are the least sort of ideologically bound?

Zuby 19:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 19:58 Like it should be complete reason, et cetera, et cetera, and then he goes on this huge tirade apology thing, and I'm-

Zuby 20:05 Oh, no.

Chris Williamson 20:05 ... watching this guy, uh, and he's desperately trying to save his YouTube channel. And I get it, like, you know, uh, I love his content and it's a shame that it came to that, and maybe he did make a genuine U-turn. But-

Zuby 20:17 But how- how strong was the backlash that that threatens his YouTube channel?

Chris Williamson 20:21 Pretty strong. Like, I think, and I think more than anything, his concern was that as soon as he got ratified by this Atheist Society of America, I think it might be Texas, something like that-

Zuby 20:29 Do you know why I'm... Sorry, do you know why I'm laughing, is because this- this sounds like, um, I often- I often joke that, uh, certain atheists are more religious than religious people.

Chris Williamson 20:39 Yeah.

Zuby 20:39 So when I, so when you're talking about like this Atheist Society like ostracizing this, um, heretic-

Chris Williamson 20:45 (laughs)

Zuby 20:45 ... it makes me laugh because I'm just like, "Well, that's extremely re-" That's like a very-

Chris Williamson 20:49 Very religious view.

Zuby 20:49 That's like a very relig- Yeah, li- that- that's a very religious sort of thing, you know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 20:54 I get it.

Zuby 20:54 That's why I find that so funny.

Chris Williamson 20:55 Yeah. I mean, are people trying to find religion in their choice of gender? Or are they trying to find religion in their adoption of a political party and stuff like that now?

Zuby 21:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:06 Um, I know that that's something that you have, uh, commented on before, and I, thinking about it, I agree. There's a... Alain de Botton from The School of Life says something similar. He says that, um, our lack of connection to a greater sense of good and a greater sense of belonging, and all of the other things that were the trappings and the trimmings that came along with religion, are actually what people are now trying to substitute into their life.

Zuby 21:34 Yeah. I've been saying that for a ve- I've been saying that for a very long time. I've just got a bigger megaphone now.

Chris Williamson 21:39 (laughs)

Zuby 21:40 Um, uh, uh, 'cause I've ob- I've observed it, right? I've observed it. The thing is, I think that fundamentally, uh, the wo- the word religion or religious sort of weirds out- weirds certain people out, like they don't- they don't really like it, but I think there's almost two ideas of religion. You've got- you've got organized, formal religion, Christianity, Judaism, you know, um, Islam, et cetera, but there's also, you know, there's also another meaning of religious, just like someone can go to the gym religiously.

Chris Williamson 22:10 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 22:10 Someone can- someone can- someone can do their- their... Someone can work on a computer program religiously and pe- people know what that means, right?

Chris Williamson 22:17 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Zuby 22:18 So there's... So human beings do, as far as I'm aware, like this isn't something I- I've sort of scientifically studied or anyw- anything, this is just anecdotal from living on the- on the Earth for three decades and a bit, right? Is that most people are... I think people sort of have a rel- what I'd call a religious core, okay? And that can be filled with an organized religion, but it can also be filled with a strong political ideology, uh, a strong dietary ideology. You get religious vegans, you get religious carnivores. Um, a strong, um, idea that could be socio-political, it could be, it could be a radical feminism, it could be, um-

Chris Williamson 23:01 Football team.

Zuby 23:02 What... It could... Yes, ex- yeah. Well, football is very religious.

Chris Williamson 23:06 (laughs)

Zuby 23:06 Professional sports is very religious.

Chris Williamson 23:08 Yeah.

Zuby 23:08 I mean, it- ex- (laughs) it's- it's ver- it's very religious. It's the same- it's the same circuitry. Do you see what I mean? It's- it's the same circuitry that those things sort of act on. And so what I do find with, uh, you know, I don't- I don't wanna, I don- I don't like to ever group everybody, but with, you know, certain people who are atheists, who are against religion or whatever, is they can often be religious in a whole different way. You can even be a religious atheist-

Chris Williamson 23:36 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 23:36 ... as far as I'm concerned, right? You have people who are... They're more militant and aggressive and firm in their atheism than I am in my own Christianity.

Chris Williamson 23:47 Yeah.

Zuby 23:47 Do you see what I mean, right? I- I'm- I'm- I'm kind of like a- a humble religious person, in that I accept that I could be wrong.

Chris Williamson 23:54 Yeah.

Zuby 23:54 Okay? So I believe that God exists. I- I believe (laughs) , I, uh, I s- I believe certain things, but I'll be the first to put my hands up and say, "You know what? I could be wrong."

Chris Williamson 24:02 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 24:02 "I could- I could die and it turns out the whole thing that I've been believing was- was just wrong." Right? That's entirely possible. But I've come across certain people that had debates and it's almost like they don't even...... they're so firm, they're like, "Absolutely no way on earth God exists. Like, you are totally wrong. All these other billions of people are totally wrong. I know this 100%. I know for certain that there's no afterlife." And I was like, "Whoa!" Like, whoa, like, to me that's weird 'cause I'm like, uh, I don't know, that's also to me like, wow, that's more hardcore-

Chris Williamson 24:37 Yep.

Zuby 24:38 ... than, than I am.

Chris Williamson 24:38 It sounds like a theocrat. They sound like a theocrat-

Zuby 24:40 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:41 ... about not being, like, a theocrat. (laughs)

Zuby 24:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs) Yeah, thi- this, this is, this is kind of what I mean. So, uh, it's not, it's not to rip on anyone, like, you do have people who are traditionally religious who are the same, who think absolutely this is the one true faith and everybody else is wrong and everybody else is going to hell, and everyone who doesn't believe exactly what I believe is wrong. And to me it's, you know, that, that, you've, you've gotta have a level of humility because to me it's a, it's a faith, right? A faith means that you don't, you accept that you don't have all of the scientific evidence and data and whatever to cr- you know, like, nobody can write some proof, right? The, the, the counter, the counter to every person who believes in God is always, "Well, what's your proof that God exists?" And it's like, well, in a scientific sense, I can't, I can't give you, like, a formula or something that will prove... I, I, I can give you, like, my logical, rational explanation as to why I think God exists-

Chris Williamson 25:43 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 25:44 ... but I can't give you some rigorous proof that you could in physics or in, in mathematics or something, because you're talking about, you're talking about a whole different dimension of reality as well, where I don't even think science sort of applies. You see, you see what I mean?

Chris Williamson 25:58 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 25:59 It's, um, like the concept of infinity.

Chris Williamson 26:01 Yeah.

Zuby 26:01 We all kinda know what infinity is, but infinity is beyond our human, uh, capability to understand, right? You can't... How can you have a, a number or something that never was always there and is all... It, it doesn't... Like, you, it feels like you understand it for two seconds and then two seconds later you don't understand it-

Chris Williamson 26:23 It's got, it's out of your grasp.

Zuby 26:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:23 It's like trying to hold onto water in your hands. Yeah. I, I totally-

Zuby 26:27 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 26:27 ... totally agree. Um, a analogous situation that's occurred recently is this Mario Lopez debacle-

Zuby 26:35 Oh.

Chris Williamson 26:35 ... which has just exploded in America. So for the (laughs) listeners that don't know what I'm talking about, the guy that played A.C. Slater in Saved by the Bell that you watched on TV 20 years ago and has done, like, he's a host for MTV and he does other bits and stuff, he is for a long time the super clean, smiley guy on your TV, fantastic teeth, you know what I mean?

Zuby 27:01 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 27:01 He's just there, he's being super positive, he's just getting, he's getting it done. And, um, he said on a, uh, I think it was actually Candace Owens' show-

Zuby 27:11 Yeah, it was.

Chris Williamson 27:11 ... where he sa- where he says this, and he says, "Look, I'm never one to tell anyone how to parent their kids, obviously, and I think if you come from a place of love, you really can't go wrong, but at the same time, my God, if you're three years old and you're saying you're feeling a certain way or you think you're a boy or a girl or whatever the case may be, I just think it's dangerous as a parent to make that determination then and be like, 'Okay, well, you're going to be a boy or a girl,' whatever the case may be. It's sort of alarming, and my gosh, I just think about the repercussions later on." Now that, to me, is almost a pedestrian paragraph-

Zuby 27:49 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 27:49 ... because of, because of how many th- uh, ca- caveats he's had to put in place.

Zuby 27:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:55 It's like it's, "I'm not this, it's, I'm not being certain here and I'm just gonna try and be polite." Like, that, in anyone's world, that is overly polite. It's uh, literally, like-

Zuby 28:04 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:05 ... verbose in its politeness.

Zuby 28:07 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:08 And he got annihilated.

Zuby 28:11 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:11 Did you watch the fallout of this?

Zuby 28:13 I've seen some of it, yeah. I've seen some of it. Um, the only mistake he made was apologizing.

Chris Williamson 28:20 The c- the, the apology, the subsequent apology, "The comments I made were ignorant and insensitive, and I now have a deeper understanding of how hurtful they were," Lope- Lopez said in a statement. "I have, have been and always will be an ardent supporter of the LGBTQ community, and I am going to use this opportunity to better educate myself moving forward. I will be more informed and thoughtful." What's your-

Zuby 28:43 That's good.

Chris Williamson 28:43 ... what's your thoughts on that?

Zuby 28:45 I, his initial statement was completely correct. Um, his apology was disappointing because he should not have apologized. Um, I know why he did, of course. I under- I, I can only imagine what kind of a fire and pressure he came under from his, I don't know, producers and colleagues and coworkers and whatever. But, um, if you're not wrong, don't apologize, and especially don't apologize to one of these crazy mobs that just goes after you because they go after, you know, they, they pick targets who they think are vulnerable or, or weak, right? It's like a, a, a herd of lions trying to find the ant- antelope that's limping-

Chris Williamson 29:26 Yeah.

Zuby 29:26 ... so that they can (laughs) so that they can all, all mob on them in a pack, right? They'll never do it, they'll never do it one on one, but they'll, they'll come in a pack and they'll try to attack someone. And, uh, if you stand firm and you don't back down, then 48 hours later they'll find a different target. Um, so I think he should've just weathered the storm and then, um, but yeah, it's, it's, I'm a little disappointed that he, that he backed down to the mob because I thought people would've learned by now not to make apologies for things you're not sorry for. If I say two plus two equals four and someone else

Zuby 29:56 thinks it equals five and they set a mob on me to try to get me to say that it equals five, I'm not gonna do it. I'm gonna say, "No, it equals four. I don't care how many people are telling me it equals five, um, it equals four." And the point that he made was actually im- quite important because we were talking about certain lines not being crossed, and I think two of those lines which are sensitive, um, which are both things we've touched on here, one of them is when it comes to-... uh, people's safety and security. Okay? So for example, in the, in the whole sports thing, okay? So if you've got, um, in, uh, in any sort of physical contact sport or anything like that, if you have people who are biological men competing against women, or being in their changing rooms and stuff like that, that's, that's a safety and a security concern that you would have thought that, you know, anyone who considers themself any type of ... (laughs) You don't even need to be a feminist, right? But you w- you would have certainly thought that the, the fem- lots of the feminists would be up in arms about that. And I know some of them are. Um, but just, just any person who's reasonable and is concerned for women would be like, "Okay, mm, we, we don't wanna do that. That's, that's a bit of a concern." Um, and then the second line that I draw a hard line at is stuff involving kids, man. Stuff involving children. You know, I've got ... I'm not a parent yet, but I've got nine nieces and nephews, and he was specifically talking about a three-year-old. Okay? Three-year-olds don't know anything. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 31:25 (laughs)

Zuby 31:25 Three, three-year-olds can't make decisions, let alone life-altering ones-

Chris Williamson 31:30 Yeah.

Zuby 31:30 ... um, that'll affect everything from their mental well-being, to their physical bodies, to their ability to reproduce in the future. You wanna let someone decide that at the age of three? That is crazy. So, and that's basically what he was saying. He didn't even say it in all the word- words that I am.

Chris Williamson 31:47 Yeah.

Zuby 31:48 But, um ...

Chris Williamson 31:48 Yeah.

Zuby 31:49 That's, that's a crazy idea. That's not ... That's ... Yeah, I mean, I, I don't even (laughs) I don't even have the words for it. It's one of those things I-

Chris Williamson 31:57 Well, I mean, s- so my, my business partner has a two-month-year-old and a two and a half year old.

Zuby 32:02 Okay.

Chris Williamson 32:02 And the times that I see that two and a half year old, he is easily five different characters an hour.

Zuby 32:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:11 He's an astronaut, then he's a postman-

Zuby 32:13 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:13 ... then he's, then he's a dinosaur, then he's doing something else, then he's doing an impression of Daddy, then he's this, that, and the other, and you don't take any of these things seriously.

Zuby 32:21 No.

Chris Williamson 32:22 Because at that age, children don't know what's best for them, which is the exact reason why the parents are around.

Zuby 32:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:28 Now, the parents are around because if left to their own devices, the children would cause some sort of catastrophe. They'd ride the, they'd ride the dog into a, a stream-

Zuby 32:37 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:37 ... or they'd ... You know what I mean? Something, something would go wrong. But, but, uh-

Zuby 32:39 Th- they'll, they'll, they'll kill themselves, man. If you leave the average two-year-old alone for a couple of h- for an hour, uh, in a certain environment-

Chris Williamson 32:46 Yeah.

Zuby 32:46 ... they will kill themselves, man.

Chris Williamson 32:47 There is something dangerous in that room. Even if you've nerfed the shit out of everything-

Zuby 32:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:51 ... there's something in there that they can eat or, uh, put in their eye or do whatever it is. Um, you're totally right. And-

Zuby 32:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:59 ... to hear ... Is it child abuse? Is it child abuse to allow children to make those sort of decisions or to support those sort of decisions?

Zuby 33:07 As far as I'm concerned, yes. As far as I'm concerned, yes. I don't think that, um ... You know, once people are adults, once they're 18 plus, let's say, perhaps even a little bit older, c- when you're thinking about brain development, but certainly, say, 18 plus, then, I mean, h- you can't ... You're not gonna give a ... No one wants to give a child ... No one thinks a three-year-old should be able to get a tattoo. No one thinks a three-year-old ... I mean, getting a tattoo is a much more of a minor than going on hormonal treatment or cutting bits off of your reproductive parts, right? Um, but no one, no one would give a three-year-old a tattoo, even if they really, really wanted one.

Chris Williamson 33:46 Mm.

Zuby 33:46 Right? You wouldn't g-

Chris Williamson 33:46 I have seen some mothers from Newcastle with three-year-olds-

Zuby 33:49 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:49 ... who've had their ears pierced, though. Which is ... (laughs)

Zuby 33:52 Yeah, no, I, I, I can understand that one more, actually-

Chris Williamson 33:55 Yeah.

Zuby 33:55 ... weirdly. Um-

Chris Williamson 33:56 Slightly less, less long-term repercussions, though.

Zuby 33:58 Yeah, yeah. So, you know, you wouldn't give them, you wouldn't give them alcohol to drink.

Chris Williamson 34:02 Yeah.

Zuby 34:02 You wouldn't let them ... Of course they can't consent to, consent to anything sexual. Um, you know, but ... And, and that's, that's the disturbing thing, 'cause it's like, look, if you're gonna let little kids start consenting to things, then that's a g- ... You know, some people say slippery slopes aren't a real thing, but no, slippery slopes can be a real thing, and it's like, no, children just do not have that agency. Children need to be protective. They can't make their own decisions. They can't consent to things. You can't even let them choose what they want to eat for dinner, 'cause they're just gonna want to eat Haribo-

Chris Williamson 34:35 Yeah.

Zuby 34:35 ... and ice cream, right? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 34:36 Yes, they certainly are. Knowing my business partner's son, that is exactly what he would choose.

Zuby 34:39 Yeah. If you were like, "Okay, what, what do you wanna eat for dinner?" "Oh, chicken nuggets and Haribo and ice cream."

Chris Williamson 34:43 (laughs)

Zuby 34:43 It's like, you can't eat that-

Chris Williamson 34:44 It's not always good for you.

Zuby 34:44 ... every day. Yeah, exactly. C- You've gotta be a parent and be like, "No, okay, you're gonna have some vegetables, you're gonna have some rice, you're gonna have some chicken, and make-"

Chris Williamson 34:52 Then some Haribo.

Zuby 34:52 "... you can have ... Yeah, then you can have a couple of Haribo if, if-"

Chris Williamson 34:55 Yeah.

Zuby 34:55 "... you're a good boy or a good girl."

Chris Williamson 34:57 So, on the other side of that fence, w- there is an argument that could be made from someone from a difficult leaning, in terms of how they look at the world, that says, "Well, if you're not supporting the child in being what they are, that's child abuse."

Zuby 35:10 They're wrong.

Chris Williamson 35:11 The opposite side to that.

Zuby 35:13 They're wrong.

Chris Williamson 35:14 Is that because the starting point is where we need to stick to until someone has agency, or sufficient agency?

Zuby 35:21 Yeah. And because certain things are ... Certain things have ... So, what we're discussing here is something with a permanent, life-altering consequences. Okay? If, um, you or I genui- genuinely decided that we wanted to go on hormone therapy and live the remainder of our lives as a woman, let's say-

Chris Williamson 35:45 Zubina or Kris, Christine.

Zuby 35:47 Yeah, I guess you could still be Chris.

Chris Williamson 35:49 Yep.

Zuby 35:49 Um-

Chris Williamson 35:51 Nice.

Zuby 35:51 ... then people can have their ideas about that, and I may have some reasons why I, I'm skeptical about that, personally. Um, but you're a grown man, I'm a grown man, and you're an adult and you have agency, and if that's the choice you make, then y- you know, you, you can, you can do it. Okay? But, um, if you are a child and someone wants to put you on hormone blockers or on testosterone or on estrogen or start having surgeries to r- ... I mean, that's going to affect you for-... the remainder of your life. And it's well-known that most people who experience any kind of, um, gender dysphoria in their young age, most people get over it within a relatively short space of time. Um, and it's not even that uncommon. For example, if you've got a little boy who's got, say they've got three older sisters, okay? It's not that rare that that little boy at some little point might be, "Oh, I wanna, I wanna be a girl," or he might wanna wear his, his sister's shoes or her dress or whatever, just because they're surrounded by women. Um, and that's ... But that doesn't mean that that boy is a girl (laughs) , right? It doesn't, it doesn't mean that, oh, he's actually a girl, so we need to put him on hormones and make sure he doesn't go through puberty property and- properly and whatever. And that'll affect them. I mean, that's, um ... When they do become of reproductive age, they, they w- then won't, might not be able to reproduce. They'll be infertile. They won't be able to have their own children. They may go through all kinds of psychological problems and issues and physical development issues. I mean, Lord knows what kind of can of worms you're opening. So to let somebody that young make those kinda decisions is utterly ... It, it's reprehensible as far as I'm concerned. I- it's a- it's amazing to me that it even sorta needs to be explained.

Chris Williamson 37:44 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 37:44 Like, I, I ... Sometimes there are certain things I wish I'm like, "Man, how am I even needing to justify-"

Chris Williamson 37:48 Why are we engaged in this discussion?

Zuby 37:49 Yeah. Why, why do I even need to h- justify my position here?

Chris Williamson 37:53 Yeah.

Zuby 37:53 And it's such a, it's such a new thing. It's such a localized thing. I mean, if you go around the world, if you go to anywhere in Africa, anywhere in South America, uh, almost anywhere in Asia, anywhere in the Middle East, and you start talking about th- they'll look at you like you are a complete crazy person.

Chris Williamson 38:09 Yeah.

Zuby 38:09 They'll be like, "What on earth are you talking about that a two-year-old boy can ... " you know? Like, "What, what do you mean?" Right? They'll, they'll wanna lock you up for even talking about it.

Chris Williamson 38:18 Yeah.

Zuby 38:18 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:18 But despite that they're the same- they're the same species, same genome.

Zuby 38:21 Yeah. Yeah. But-

Chris Williamson 38:23 You know what I mean?

Zuby 38:23 Yeah. It's just-

Chris Williamson 38:23 T- diff- totally, they're not h- not experiencing the same, uh, the same situations.

Zuby 38:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:28 One of the things that I keep on thinking about, and it, uh, obviously it's apparent in Mario Lopez's apology, is the equivalent exponential growth that you've seen-

Zuby 38:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:40 ... is the same slippery slope on the other side that people can get pushed down-

Zuby 38:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:45 ... from one step of saying maybe it's not a tremendously good idea to let three-year-olds change their gender to you're transphobic.

Zuby 38:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:52 And it's this exponential increase.

Zuby 38:55 It's a bullying tactic. It's a bullying tactic. That's all it is. It's just a tactic, right? People know that if you slap a label on somebody, whether that's racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, whatever, Islamophobic, whatever phobia or label people can s- try to slap on someone, and people do this all day. It's nothing new. It's just a, a cheap way to try to discredit someone. It's simply a tactic. And it's a, it's a really disgusting one. Firstly, because it's slanderous, and secondly, because it minimizes- it dilutes the terms. Okay? If you call everybody who disagrees with you racist, then you're diluting the term for ... You're diluting what racism actually is, and you're dia- you're minimizing harm that's caused by genuine racism. And you're also providing cover for actual racists. Okay? If ... I've, I've heard the term r- race- I see it slung around so much now, both in real life and on Twitter, that I myself am pretty desensitized to it.

Chris Williamson 39:55 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 39:55 Okay? If someone's like, "Oh, that guy's a racist," my first ... You know, if you went back 15 years ago, my gut would be to believe them and to be like, "Oh, oh, what's going on?" Whereas now, my gut is to be like, "Oh, gosh. Like, here we go."

Chris Williamson 40:11 They disagree with someone.

Zuby 40:12 Do, do you mean, do you mean they're actually a real racist, or do you just mean that they're a little bit right-wing, or they're a bit- or they're a conservative, or they like Trump? You know? And it's, it's, it's gotten silly and people are just amping up this rhetoric all the time. You're getting people on Twitter saying, "Oh, everybody who supports Trump, every single one of you is supporting white nationalism." I'm like, "What about the Black guys and the Latinos and the Black women, and all the, the, the Arab people who all like Trump?" I mean, you're, you're saying they're all white nationalists? Like, come on. Just think. Like, stop using such ridiculous ... You're here criticizing Trump for his rhetoric while staying- saying stuff that's far more inflammatory and divisive than anything that comes out of his mouth. So, it's just, uh, people just need to kinda take a step back and chill. Um-

Chris Williamson 40:59 It does, it does stop us from getting to the, the nuance of the discussion as well, right? Because as soon as you go from being anything which isn't zero-

Zuby 41:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:10 ... if you- as soon as you add a one or a two or a three all the way up to 100, you get pushed to 100-

Zuby 41:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:15 ... which stops, stops the ability to have the virtuous middle, which is actually where the devil's in the details, right, and the rubber meets the road at the point where people want to find out what's the ... That's the reason I enjoy doing this podcast. I like to deconstruct stuff so I can find out exactly where the rubber meets the road with particular-

Zuby 41:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:32 ... issues. And it's one of the most interesting things I think you can do when you're conversing with people. But as soon as, like you say, someone that you disagree with gets given a -ism or a-

Zuby 41:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:42 ... obi- obier, and you're like, "Well, there we go." That's-

Zuby 41:44 Uh, they-

Chris Williamson 41:45 Conversation's over.

Zuby 41:46 Yeah, they tried it with me. It didn't work.

Chris Williamson 41:48 What, what -isms and obiers did they give you?

Zuby 41:51 Um, sexism and transphobia.

Chris Williamson 41:54 Okay.

Zuby 41:55 Yeah. Uh, both for the same tweet as well.

Chris Williamson 41:58 (laughs)

Zuby 41:58 Um, uh, but it, it doesn't stick because it doesn't work. I just make people look stupid when they call me anything like that. And ultimately, it's not true, so I don't care. If someone says- if someone calls me sexist, I will literally laugh in their face. Okay? I might even agree and amplify it just to, like, make a joke, right?

Chris Williamson 42:16 Yeah.

Zuby 42:16 I'll tell them, I don't know-

Chris Williamson 42:17 It's that ridiculous.

Zuby 42:18 Yeah, it's that ridiculous. I'll tell them to, I don't know, get back in the kitchen or whatever.

Chris Williamson 42:21 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 42:22 Even if it's a guy who says it, just like, whatever. It's, it's such a dumb thing to say. Anybody who knows me knows that I'm not sexist. So, I don't- I'm not gonna go on the defensive and start-... claiming my righteousness. It's just, like, just, "No, go away." Like, if you call someone something, the, the appropriate answer, if someone accuses you of something with no evidence and that you're not, is to, you know, call, call them an a-hole, because that's what they're being. No, really. If someone just came up to you, Chris, and was like, "Oh, you're a racist-"

Chris Williamson 42:51 (laughs)

Zuby 42:51 ... then you don't need to, you don't need to start justifying why you're not. You don't need to go on the, they want you to go on the defensive.

Chris Williamson 42:58 Yeah.

Zuby 42:58 Right? You don't go on the defensive. You just say, "No, well you're being a jerk. You're a jerk 'cause you have no evidence that I am and I'm not, and you're accusing me of being this thing, so if you wanna have a conversation, stop being a jerk and we can talk, or, um," you know, conversation over. Um, but people always feel this need to defend themselves. And, and, you know, people who attack in these mobs, they're very, like, they're like sharks in the water, right? So as soon as they, there's a little bit of blood-

Chris Williamson 43:22 Smell the blood, yeah.

Zuby 43:22 ... they're like, "Oh, we got him! We got him! Yeah, we got him! We got him!" You know? And then they try to find another target. And they keep trying to do it to all these different people. And, you know, most people, you know, they, they do the false apology and they, they say that... You know, I, 'cause the funny thing, okay, in that, in that Mario Lopez thing, at no point did he say why, how or why what he said was wrong.

Chris Williamson 43:42 Yeah.

Zuby 43:42 Right? He said, all he-

Chris Williamson 43:43 He really is sensitive, deeper understanding. It's like this-

Zuby 43:46 Oh.

Chris Williamson 43:46 It's, it's like you go onto, um, obiaapology.com and-

Zuby 43:52 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:53 ... they're ju- you know you put in a certain number of characteristics and then it spews out this thing. Because, you know, I, I mentioned earlier on, Rationality Rules, and Stephen's, the first five minutes of his response video were that. It was that language, that exact language right there. And I don't know, man. I don't know. It, it-

Zuby 44:14 (coughs) It's like, it's like a struggle session.

Chris Williamson 44:16 Yeah.

Zuby 44:17 Yeah, you know, in the Soviet Union and in, uh, Mao's China when they used to get people to admit to crimes (laughs) that they, that they hadn't committed, right? And they'd just get people and they'd just have to say, confess to something.

Chris Williamson 44:29 Whatever they want. Yeah.

Zuby 44:30 Yeah, yeah. Wha- whatever it is. It's like a new age version of that, where you put people up, especially public figures, you put them up on this thing and they have to give this false apology or admission to kind of atone for those, their sins. And then, okay, they can maybe come back in the club. Otherwise, they get canceled, that's the, that's the new term. Um, but I just think people need to really stop giving into this. I mean, it's, it's incredible how many, um... I get so many messages and emails now from people, especially in the world of entertainment, also in the world of tech and in media, who, one, tell me that I'm extremely brave (laughs) for being as honest and frank as I am. But then, two, say that, oh, they can't speak out because they're worried about losing their job or they're worried about losing this opportunity or all this kind of stuff. And it's just, it's crazy. I mean, we're supposed to be in a free country with free speech and freedom of expression, uh, both in the UK and in the USA. So the f- idea that people are essentially succumbing to a form of terrorism, as far as... It's, it's terrorism, isn't it? Right? If you're, you know, making people com- so afraid of their repercussions to, to say what's on their mind or to express their genuine beliefs or whatever, because you're, you're terrorizing them and, you know, you're, you're making examples out of other people to so- to show what'll happen if they step out of line.

Chris Williamson 45:49 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 45:49 That's, it's terrorism. It's literally-

Chris Williamson 45:51 It's the, it's the heads on spikes as you go into the -

Zuby 45:54 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, yeah. Literally, yeah. Literally, it is. It is.

Chris Williamson 45:56 Mario's head is currently sat on a spike outside of, outside of the TV studio. And the worst thing, you made a really good point about the fact that it dilutes down the people who are actually the problem, and it also doesn't allow those of us who have compassion... Um, my, my empathy is crippling. Like, absolutely crippling for almost anything. I spoke about Daniel Sloss, the comedian, with this. And we said that, you know you see those videos of dogs coming home to soldiers, like, after they've been at war? And I'm just, like, bawling my eyes out at these things.

Zuby 46:27 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:27 And I can't be- But the, the problem is that if you do want to have compassion and, um, try and understand complex situations and someone who is going through gender dysphoria, someone who has suffered with racism, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, it's like, to be able to, to be able to step into that room and try and understand that, you also have to do all this other stuff as well. You're like, "Right, I'm gonna have to put this bag on and this bag on and this bag on." And yeah, it's, it's not very, it's not very helpful. So, I think you're right. It'll be interesting to see how many more Mario Lopezes there are and how many more Zhoobies there are-

Zuby 47:05 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 47:05 ... over the next, like, five years. You know what I mean?

Zuby 47:07 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:07 Like, that's, that's gonna be interesting. And because of the way that popular culture defines and it trickles down into defining what everybody else thinks, it's not actually gonna take lots of those situations to occur to actually begin defining culture, like, ahead of it.

Zuby 47:27 Yeah, that's true.

Chris Williamson 47:27 I think that, you know, a lot of those situations can be like the stone in the river that directs the flow a little bit.

Zuby 47:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:32 Um, so one of the other things I wanted to discuss is, uh, Titania McGrath. I don't know how to pronounce her name. Titania? Titanium McGrath?

Zuby 47:40 Ti- Titania. Titania.

Chris Williamson 47:41 Titania McGrath.

Zuby 47:41 I believe, yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:42 Um, so I have, this is the first time that the listeners will hear it. I've managed to confirm her/her character to come on the podcast.

Zuby 47:52 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 47:52 Um, my goal, she's currently performing at Edinburgh Fringe, if you are at the Fringe, 9:00 PM every night. I suggest that you go and see it. The show has had fantastic reviews already. Um, what I wanted to do was to get the actress that plays her to sit down-

Zuby 48:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:06 ... and to have Andrew Doyle, the man who's behind her, as her publicist.

Zuby 48:11 Okay.

Chris Williamson 48:11 And I wanted to have this back and forth, but apparently one of the agreements is that the actress won't, um, won't speak in character on interviews. Which is really, a really good idea.

Zuby 48:23 Oh.

Chris Williamson 48:23 Because, I mean, if people actually begin thinking-

Zuby 48:25 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:25 ... that she is her, all hell will break loose. But there was a tweet that came out that is probably the best one I think I've seen her do.

Zuby 48:31 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:31 Which is, "If you only have sex with people you find attractive, you might want to ask yourself why you're such a superficial bigot." (laughs)

Zuby 48:40 (laughs) Oh, gosh. I- I- I think my favorite one was that being a cis white male is an act of violence or something like that.

Chris Williamson 48:49 (laughs)

Zuby 48:50 I think that was like... (laughs) I- that was one of my favorite ones.

Chris Williamson 48:53 One- one of the things that's super interesting about this, 'cause Andrew's British, right? And also the whole- the fact that he got ousted due to, like, a typo from some book publishing thing. I don't know whether you saw this, but-

Zuby 49:03 I don't know. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:03 ... he- he... the only reason, like I say, he never wanted to- he never wanted to be the person that's, like, behind this account, right? For the people that don't know what we're talking about, it is a- a fake social justice warrior account satir- satirically going through saying these sort of things, the absolute extreme example of what you might see on Twitter. Um, got banned, then people are, "Oh, hang on. You can't ban this. It's a satire account." These are actually allowed under Twitter's terms of service. It's stipulated it's a satire account, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and due to some- (laughs) some guy, a- a book publishing thing accidentally fired on some blog somewhere that it was Andrew as the author.

Zuby 49:43 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 49:43 And then everybody trickled down 'cause he's the same guy that is behind, uh, Jonathan Pie as well. The Jonathan Pie.

Zuby 49:52 Yeah, he does some writing for him, right?

Chris Williamson 49:53 Yeah, yeah. So, you know, and, uh, apparently now it's just, like, all hell- similar to yourself, all- all hell broke loose. Um, but yeah. The- the fact that- the fact that he's got that understanding and that nuance strikes at what I was talking about in the UK again. Because, again, for me, this sort of stuff, like, cis male and- and- and the- the (laughs) superficial bigotry and stuff like that-

Zuby 50:17 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 50:17 ... it's- it's not language that I hear. It isn't.

Zuby 50:20 Okay.

Chris Williamson 50:20 And it's interesting that you say that you have, but yeah, I- I- I absolutely can't wait to s-

Zuby 50:25 You- you might be protected up there. You're in Newcastle, right?

Chris Williamson 50:27 Yes.

Zuby 50:28 Yeah, you might actually be somewhat insulated from it up there.

Chris Williamson 50:31 You think 'cause it's a bit less cosmopolitan than London, somewhere like that? It's a little bit more...

Zuby 50:35 Yeah, and- and people are... I know Newcastle well. Um, and people in Newcastle are just, yeah, a bit more in touch and grounded.

Chris Williamson 50:43 Spitting sawdust up here, yeah.

Zuby 50:44 And- and- and so- and sort of sane. Yeah. Uh, a lot of these ideas... It's- it's a bit like how in the US, like, if you go to the south of the USA or you're sort of in Middle America in the Midwest, you're- you're gonna get far less of these social- you're gonna get far less social justice nonsense, right? They're not- they're not running around in- in Houston and, you know, most parts of Texas and Arizona and Kentucky and Alabama. Right? There's no social justice warriors there. But if you go to Portland, you go to Los Angeles, you go to New York, you go to, you know, the coastal cities, then that's where a lot more of this ideology is based. Uh, so in the UK, I mean, if you're in London or in Brighton-

Chris Williamson 51:26 I was gonna say, what's the wokest city in the UK?

Zuby 51:28 Brighton.

Chris Williamson 51:29 Brighton's the wokest city-

Zuby 51:30 Brighton.

Chris Williamson 51:30 ... in the UK?

Zuby 51:31 Easy. Easily.

Chris Williamson 51:33 No way. How the-

Zuby 51:34 Easily, yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:34 ... how did I guess that?

Zuby 51:35 Yeah, Brighton easily. Yeah. Um, Brighton's the one place where you would encounter people who do genuinely-

Chris Williamson 51:42 Use this language.

Zuby 51:42 Yeah, who use this kind of language, and will... You'll- you'll say something... Lots of the things that we've said here they'd find extremely offensive and want us to apologize for, and start giving you a lecture on, you know, why you as a privileged cis white male should not be, you know, saying certain things, or perhaps you should even be speaking to me in a certain way as a person of color, and all the... Right? All- all- all that stuff is-

Chris Williamson 52:06 Should you be speaking to you in a certain way as a person of color?

Zuby 52:09 (laughs) ?I don't even... I hate that term. I don't even use it. It's just silly.

Chris Williamson 52:13 Yeah, it's- it's really interesting. Joe Rogan recently went through a- a- a breakdown of person of color and colored person and-

Zuby 52:20 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 52:21 ... like, the fact that you can rearrange the same words in a sentence, and one way's, like, currently accepted-

Zuby 52:27 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 52:27 ... and then one way was accepted but now isn't accepted.

Zuby 52:31 Yeah. Yeah, it's- it's- it's silly. Um, I don't- I don't use- I don't use ter- terminology of, um, uh, my ideological opponents, shall we say. Although I don't- I don't like to view people as opponents. I like to just view people as people. But I guess I oppose certain ideas, okay? I try- I try not to... I try to separate people from ideas.

Chris Williamson 52:52 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 52:53 So I've encountered people who, you know, have some of these bizarre ideas, and I- I don't agree with them on them, but as long as we can have a conversation and be decent to each other and, you know, maybe agree to disagree, maybe we'll change each other's minds on- on certain things from time to time, then it's- it's- it's all good. But, um, I don't think it's a... Yeah, there's just some ideas that I don't think are a net benefit to society.

Chris Williamson 53:20 Mm-hmm.

Zuby 53:20 So anything that I feel is that way, then I will most likely oppose.

Chris Williamson 53:25 Yeah, I understand. So to finish off, one of the things that I wanted to ask, uh, I- I appreciate that you understand this with a lot of nuance, and you are someone who it seems kind of similar to Jordan Peterson in a little way. Like, the way that when the left decided to pick on him-

Zuby 53:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 53:45 ... it's like they picked on the wrong fucking guy.

Zuby 53:47 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 53:48 So bad. And it's like the same with you. Like, if there was someone that was gonna come to the front, it was going to be someone who, like, overtly could be, first off, classed as a minority, so you've got that card to play, like, whenever you want, right? You've got, like, the race card in your pocket.

Zuby 54:04 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 54:04 And then you've got- and then you've got the, uh, ability lyrically to write, to speak, to do all of these different things. You are someone who I feel is, you know, hopefully well-equipped to deal with whatever the fuck the future's got in store for you. You're going on Joe Rogan-

Zuby 54:19 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 54:19 ... pretty soon, so that is gonna make a big change. So for some of the people that are out there, how would you suggest that they go about viewing the world, um, uh, t- tools or tactics with regards to skepticism or conduct or however you think? What... Have you got some advice for people about how they navigate the next sort of two, two years, five years?

Zuby 54:40 Wow. Well, you mentioned Jordan Peterson, so I'll take one of his rules, which is tell the truth or at least don't lie.... right? I think that's important. I'm, I'm really big on authenticity and I always have been, both in my music and outside of it, you know. Just trying to be honest and not say things that maybe are beneficial or might seem expedient in the short term, but in the long term are likely to do you damage or get you caught in some sort of web of lies. So, just being honest. And then, and then, yeah, that goes further to sort of standing your ground. Standing your ground, but also being not in- not as in digging yourself in on an idea and not allowing other people to challenge it. No, no, no. Like, do the opposite of that. Get outside of your echo chamber. But, um, don't be afraid. Don't crumble at the first question, right? If someone, if someone challenges something or someone wants you to apologize for something that you're not sorry for-

Chris Williamson 55:40 (laughs)

Zuby 55:40 ... then you don't have to apologize. And it would be a, it would be an empty apology anyway. If I do something and, um, I'm not sorry about it and I'm forced into some kind of apology, then I'm still not sorry about it. It's just, you're just saying words to-

Chris Williamson 55:55 I said the words.

Zuby 55:56 Yeah, I said the words, um, but that doesn't really, that doesn't really mean anything. Um, and then beyond that, I guess, uh, just being, being, trying to be open-minded and talk to different people of different viewpoints. And you know, if you've got something that you're... Or, and- and, you know, just be willing to learn, um, and be willing to have your mind changed. It's, it's, uh, the, the reason any of us know anything is 'cause we've been wrong in the past. Okay? Pretty much everything you know is because you were wrong at some point. So, if you are never wrong or you feel like you're never wrong, you're probably not learning anymore, right?

Chris Williamson 56:35 Probably not updating the OS appropriately.

Zuby 56:37 E- e- exactly, exactly. Every day you should, you should be being wrong about something almost every day. Nothing catastrophic, right?

Chris Williamson 56:43 Yeah.

Zuby 56:43 But, um-

Chris Williamson 56:44 Yeah.

Zuby 56:44 ... yeah. You should be, "Oh, okay." Someone... I say something and then you're like, "Oh, no, actually duh-duh-duh. Look at, this is the data or these are the facts, or have you thought this?" You know? If I'm being intellectually honest, if it's a better argument or it's a fact that goes against what I believed, it's like, "Oh, okay. No, you're right." And then I incorporate that into my thing and then hopefully the next time you have a conversation with the next person, you're a little bit wiser, and that continues to happen. And I kind of look forward to, um... It's one reason I'm not so worried about getting older, is like, I look forward to, uh, seeing just how much I'll know (laughs) and what kind of person I'll be in 10 years, in 15 years, in 20 years, uh, 'cause that's when... Yeah. That's when it should all start peaking. And I think that's why someone like Jordan Peterson, his rise has just been crazy. 'Cause it's really interesting. I mean, it's rare for someone to become world-famous in their mid-50s, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 57:34 Absolutely.

Zuby 57:34 But it's almost... But you were talking about that- that striking, and it's like he's been building up and building up and building up and then he's sort of in his-

Chris Williamson 57:42 Fucking half a century of preparation.

Zuby 57:44 Yeah (laughs) . Yeah, li- literally. And then when the, when the spotlight came on him, it was like whoa.

Chris Williamson 57:49 Oh my God, yeah.

Zuby 57:50 Whoa (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 57:50 "This is... You fools, this isn't even my final form."

Zuby 57:53 Yeah, yeah, literally (laughs) . It was like, "Whoa." Like, "This guy's a, a phoenix." Just sort of like, "Whoa." Like-

Chris Williamson 57:59 Absolutely.

Zuby 57:59 ... "This guy's a force." You know?

Chris Williamson 58:01 Yeah.

Zuby 58:01 Um, but had the spotlight been on him maybe 20 years ago or 30 years ago, it wouldn't have been... He wouldn't have formulated his ideas-

Chris Williamson 58:08 Yeah.

Zuby 58:08 ... and been able to articulate them in the, in the way that he does, which is very masterful. Um, I went to see him live last year and it was, it was really interesting. It's very- It's-

Chris Williamson 58:16 Wher- Where did you see him?

Zuby 58:18 Uh, Oxford.

Chris Williamson 58:19 Oh, cool. I saw him at the Manchester show. Manchester show was fantastic as well.

Zuby 58:23 Yeah, yeah. And it's really interesting 'cause it's... Yeah. I mean, it- it's weird. He's touring like a rock star just doing these talks.

Chris Williamson 58:28 I know. Chatting about, chatting about, like-

Zuby 58:31 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:32 ... things, things that you could not pay me to go-

Zuby 58:34 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:34 And you couldn't have paid me to go and learn about that 15 years ago, and now I'm like, "I'll put my hand in my pocket for you, Jordan."

Zuby 58:41 Yeah, yeah (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 58:41 Um, yeah, it- it's, it's interesting. And, you know, it's so tropey now to, to talk about Jordan Peterson, but being precise with your speech, telling the truth, being friends with people that want the best for you. All of those sort of things, they're fantastic rules to live by. Um, yeah, uh, I really, I genuinely, genuinely do hope that there is a Jordan Peterson future ahead for you, man. I think that you, you know, tentatively, I hope that you have the skills to, to navigate the space and to be a really, a really interesting balancing voice going forward. Obviously we need to get another 15 kilos on your squat, um-

Zuby 59:16 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 59:18 (laughs) but once we've done that, uh, you know, I- I- I really do think that there, there'll be a lot of, a lot of world at your feet for you to kind of play around with, and I- I- I genuinely, I'm super excited to see what the next, the next year sort of particularly for yourself has in store. And I'm very, feeling very fortunate to hopefully be a part of that genesis process and, and, and kind of help you along the way as well.

Zuby 59:40 I appreciate that, Chris. Thank you very much, man.

Chris Williamson 59:42 Today's been awesome. Anybody who wants to find out any more, get @zubymusic on Twitter. Where else can they go? Is there a website? Anything else?

Zuby 59:50 Yeah, sure. So I'm on Twitter @zubymusic. Same handle on Instagram, YouTube and Facebook as well @zubymusic. And my website is zubymusic.com. I've also got a merchandise website where you can get my music and merch, which is teamzuby.com.

Chris Williamson 1:00:05 Fantastic. Uh, all links to everything that we've spoken about will be, will be in the show notes below. If you've got any comments or any, uh, feedback about today, obviously it's quite a nuanced and interesting conversation, the comments are always open or @chriswillex wherever you follow me. But for now, Zuby, man, thank you so much. Good luck with Joe when you're out in the States and, uh, I'll catch you next time.

Zuby 1:00:24 Thanks, bro. I appreciate it. Have a good evening.

Narrator 1:00:30 (instrumental music playing)