EVERY SPOKEN WORD
120 min read · 24,259 words- 0:00 – 1:14
The viral deadlift tweet that kicked off a global firestorm
- ZUZuby
... on my Twitter account, @zubymusic. I posted up a nine-second video of me doing a deadlift in the gym. I was lifting 230 kilograms. It's actually well below my maximum, but I just, uh, had a clip of me doing it on my phone. And I posted it up with a caption saying, "I keep hearing about how there's no biological difference between men and women in 2019, so watch me destroy the British women's deadlift record without trying." And then I wrote, "P.S. I identified as a woman while lifting the weight, so don't be a bigot." And this tweet caught absolute fire. It went hyper viral. It's got 1.7 million views on the original video. I think it got about 55,000 likes and 20-something thousand retweets. It just went nuts. It went viral in the UK, in Canada, in America, i- in Europe (laughs) , like all, all over the world.
- CWChris Williamson
I am joined by the strongest female deadlift champion on the internet. Zuby, welcome to the show.
- ZUZuby
How's it going, Chris? How you doing?
- CWChris Williamson
Fantastic to have you on, man. Recently spoke to Brian Carroll, who is a multiple record holder in powerlifting for men, and now speaking to one for women as well.
- ZUZuby
That's right, man. Deadlift and bench press, 84 kg weight class. Women's, of course.
- 1:14 – 1:52
Powerlifting banter: records, injuries, and the ‘sumo is cheating’ debate
- CWChris Williamson
How heavy is the squat? What have you got to get your squat to?
- ZUZuby
Man, I haven't squatted properly for, for ages because of, uh, an injury that's been harassing me for literally about five years now. But, uh, my personal best on the squat is 190 and I believe the women's record in my weight class is about 210, something like that.
- CWChris Williamson
A little bit of work and you've got the total as well (laughs) .
- ZUZuby
Yeah, man. I, I think, I think I could do it. I could def- can completely annihilate the deadlift and the bench press ones.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) .
- ZUZuby
But, um, the squat'll take a little bit of work.
- CWChris Williamson
I got you. Uh, so for everyone who's listening who doesn't have a clue what we're talking about, can you take us through what's, what's happened over the last few months of your life?
- 1:52 – 5:49
From 17k to 100k+: media pickup and downstream audience explosion
- ZUZuby
Yeah. The last few months have been quite the whirlwind. So, um, going back to February now, at the end of February, on my Twitter account, @zubymusic, I posted up a nine-second video of me doing a deadlift in the gym. I was lifting 230 kilograms, which is 500 and something pounds. Um, it's actually well below my maximum, but I just, uh, had a clip of me doing it on my phone. And I posted it up with a caption saying, "I keep hearing about how there's no biological difference between men and women in 2019, so watch me destroy the British women's deadlift record without trying." Uh, and then I wrote, "P.S. I identified as a woman while lifting the weight, so don't be a bigot."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) .
- ZUZuby
And this tweet caught absolute fire. It went hyper viral. It's got 1.7 million views on the original video. I think it got about 55,000 likes and 20-something thousand retweets. It just went nuts. It went viral in the UK, in Canada, in America, i- in Europe (laughs) , like all, all over the world. Um, and then newspapers and media started picking up on it. It was covered by Fox News, The Daily Wire, Sky News, BBC, um, a whole bunch of different outlets, and then a bunch of podcasts such as Louder With Crowder, The Ben Shapiro Show, um, and the one that really catalyzed a few things, which was The Joe Rogan Experience. Yeah. So it just, uh, it just went bonkers. At the time I tweeted it, I had 17,000 followers. And, uh, as of this week, I'm the proud owner of over 100... Well, I don't wanna say owner. I'm the proud, uh...
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) .
- ZUZuby
What's the, what's the, what's the right term?
- CWChris Williamson
I think it's owner.
- ZUZuby
Is it owner?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- ZUZuby
Okay. Yeah. Well, I have over 100,000 Twitter followers now. So it's increased just crazily this year, as well as my, my YouTube audience and my podcast audience and my music listeners. Everything I do has just, um, exploded. It was a real catalyst for everything I do, which is awesome, but also kind of ridiculous.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah, no. This kind of real asymmetry with viral content and stuff like that is a... it's a real blessing when you get it right. And what's hilarious is the fact that this is you working up to like an RP7.
- ZUZuby
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
That's like, that's like, that's like a comfortable 75% pull. Um, I don't know whether anyone's discussed this yet, but we have, we've had a number of debates on the podcast about whether pulling sumo is cheating or not.
- ZUZuby
No, it's not.
- CWChris Williamson
Sumo's not cheating?
- ZUZuby
It's not, it's, it's not even easier for everybody.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, there we go. We've heard it, we've heard it here first.
- ZUZuby
I, I mean if it were e- if it were easy, when people say it's easier, I'm like, "Then why don't you pull it?"
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah.
- ZUZuby
Because it's, it's co- it's competition legal.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
So if, if it were easier, every single powerlifter would pull sumo, but they don't. So...
- CWChris Williamson
Agreed.
- ZUZuby
It's kind of silly logic to even say that.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh-
- ZUZuby
I mean, it, it depends on how you're built. For some people it is easier.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZUZuby
But, um, not for everybody or every... I mean, if you even look at the sort of World's Strongest Men guys, most of them don't pull sumo.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Interesting, isn't it?
- 5:49 – 7:06
The long grind before the breakout: building as an independent rapper
- ZUZuby
Wow. Well, so I'm a professional rapper. I'm an independent musician. I've been doing it full time since 2011, but I've been rapping since 2006. So...If you go on my Twitter profile, you'll see my Twitter's been active since July 2009. And before that, I was on Facebook and YouTube, and before that I was on MySpace, if you wanna take it back to the beginning.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ZUZuby
So I've been, um, I've been active on social media for a, a very long time. I've been building my audience for a long time, primarily through my music and my, my gigs and my concerts and selling CDs, traveling all around the UK. Whether that's down in Bournemouth or the Isle of Wight or up in Newcastle or Glasgow, I've been to every city in the UK multiple times, doing shows, selling my CDs, talking to people, just promoting my music. So that was the thing that I was initially known for, and that's the main way that I built up my organic audience. So it's been a really long grind to get to where things are. I mean, I've released five albums and three EPs. I've got eight releases in total out there. Those are all available on iTunes and Spotify and all that. Um, sold over 25,000 albums out of my backpack, just traveling around the UK. Put out a ridiculous number of ... I mean, I've got 55,000 tweets on my, just on my Twitter.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- 7:06 – 11:48
Why some viral moments convert into lasting audiences (and most don’t)
- ZUZuby
And then crazy amounts of content on Facebook and YouTube and all these different places. So it's all been, um ... I mean, it, it's been great because, 'cause I laid such a strong foundation, it meant that when that tweet went viral, people ... I- it meant two things, or maybe more than two things. Number one is that people came and a lot of them stayed, because they realized that I had a lot more to offer beyond just one funny, s- kind of silly tweet. Right? People go viral all the time on Twitter, but they don't have 100,000 followers, because the tweet goes viral, but then people go to the page and there's nothing particularly interesting there beyond that one-off funny tweet. So people don't really follow or people disappear. With mine, you know, people came and then they were like, "Oh. Oh, he's a rapper. Oh, his music is actually good. Oh, he's a, he does podcasts. Oh, he's, oh, I, I like his podcast. Oh, he's got interesting stuff to say and he's funny." So a lot of people came and they stayed. Um, and then also it just meant that I've been able to deal with some of the craziness. Um, you know, the ma- massive amount of love and attention, massive amounts of hate and criticism. I've been dealing with both of these things as a professional musician for well over a decade. So I'm kind of seasoned to it. All that's happened is that the volume has increased-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
... which is, uh, something I'm still adjusting to, and the volume is gonna increase again. So in a way, it's kind of what I wanted. It's just, it's just odd how it happened.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
You know, that, that was ... Of all the content I've put out there-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ZUZuby
... of all the things I've done, of all the money I've spent, of all the traveling I've done-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
... the idea that it was that ridiculous tweet that didn't even have anything to do with my music-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
... that opened so many people up to who I am and what I do, that, eh, you know, it's, it's been very bizarre. But, um, I'm thankful for it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. When you're grinding away five years ago, 10 years ago in a studio in the arse end of London somewhere trying to get the same verse 20 times, and then all you should have really been doing is just working on your sumo deadlift form and ... (laughs)
- ZUZuby
(laughs) Well, one of my friends, one of my friends, Jose, made a really good point. He said, "You know what, man? It took you 15 years of training to even make that video."
- CWChris Williamson
Nice. That's a good point.
- ZUZuby
Right? So he was like, "You know, it ... that wasn't an overnight ... Like, most people cannot lift what you just lifted, so most people would not be able to even make that video."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZUZuby
So I was like, "Actually, you know, when you, when you think of it that way, that does make a lot of sense." It's quite a, it's quite a good metaphor, I guess-
- CWChris Williamson
You know.
- ZUZuby
... in way that it can look like something just, "Oh, I'm just gonna do this thing," but it's actually not a lot of people are able to do that thing, 'cause they didn't put in the groundwork beforehand. So what might be easier for that one person ... Just like the guy you were talking about earlier who can squat over 1000 pounds, right? I'm sure for him doing that it's not gonna look particularly difficult, but-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
... the average person cannot (laughs) <|agent|><|en|>
- CWChris Williamson
It's gonna end them, yeah.
- ZUZuby
... cannot get a ... C- cannot, could not. No, the m- average person can't even do a quarter-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
... of that.
- CWChris Williamson
I get it.
- ZUZuby
So yeah, yeah. So, uh, yeah, but that's h- that's how the world works, man.
- CWChris Williamson
I get you. So one of the quotes that I really love is, uh, "Luck equals preparation plus opportunity." And-
- ZUZuby
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
... I think that that definitely seems to kind of be what's happened. And I know a lot of the podcasts and people that you've been on with recently have focused on the issues and what, what the actual narrative is around that, and we can go onto that in a second. But for people that are listening and, uh, you know, everyone who has upward m- some degree of upward mobility and is on that grind is hoping for that moment, right? That breakout moment. But what you've identified there I think is really interesting, which is that the same way as someone who's a stonemason working away with a hammer and a chisel, it's not the 100th strike which actually breaks the stone, it's the 99 that came before that. And you're totally correct with what you say, that it's all well and good being handed an opportunity and having this super viral moment. I th- I recently read a blog that said actually there's a fairly high likelihood of everyone, or most people, a significant mi- majority of people, going viral to one degree or another at some point now-
- 11:48 – 15:26
What the reaction revealed: ‘people feel silenced’ and satire breaks the spell
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think that the reaction to the tweet that you put out ... What did, what do you think it says as a, as a commentary? Have you got, uh, an overall conclusion of how that, how it's made you feel or your, your sort of thoughts at the moment?
- ZUZuby
I would say that-The thing I'm really- I've really picked up on over the last few years, but especially over the last few months as I've become, I guess, more of a public figure and a better-known person, is that there are so many people who feel silenced, shall we say.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZUZuby
So, so many people were very thankful for that tweet (laughs) . 'Cause in- they've been seeing stuff going on and they're like, "Oh my gosh. Like, things are getting absurd. Things are getting ridiculous. Objective reality is- is being disposed of," and whatever. There's millions of people around the world are feeling that, if not billions of people. And so, that tweet was just something that very- in a- in a visual way and in a satirical way, just exposed some of the silliness in the world-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
... that people are aware of, right? So this whole idea of, like I said in the comment, you know, the idea of men and women not being different or having the same physical and strength capabilities, right? Some of these ideas or the idea that a man, like myself, with my beard and my muscles, can identify as a woman, and everybody is supposed to just accept that I'm a woman and not question it, and allow me to compete in women's sports and play rugby against them and box against them and lift- deadlift against them and all that, right? That- some people are saying this from an ideological perspective, trying to say that that's all fine and the vast majority of people do not agree with that. The vast majority of people are like, "No, that's ridiculous. That doesn't make sense. That's not based in reality." But for various reasons and societal pressures, they feel like they can't express that, or if they can express it, they can only do it on a very small platform or perhaps in private. So by me putting that out there, it was kind of like everybody exhaled, I think. You know, I think people were like...
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ZUZuby
"Ha!"
- CWChris Williamson
He's the guy.
- ZUZuby
Yeah!
- CWChris Williamson
He's the guy.
- ZUZuby
Finally, somebody (laughs) ...
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
Right? Like, finally someone just said it and showed it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
Right? It's visual as well, so it's like you- I think it's one thing if you read something as- and I think the video- the video as well, just the fact that people saw it and it was a very clear rebuttal-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- ZUZuby
... of these arguments that people make. 'Cause it was like, okay, no, he wasn't actually trying during that deadlift. And I'm not a professional lifter.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- ZUZuby
Right? I'm not- I'm not competing in powerlifting or Strongest Man or whatever. There's loads of guys who are considerably stronger than me.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZUZuby
So the fact that I, a recreational lifter, can just go and shatter the women's records-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
... as could many other recreational lifters, that kind of puts a nail in the coffin of this idea of, okay, there's no physical differences. Which- which I don't even know how anyone who inhabits the real world could say to begin with. But I- I have heard these arguments. I have heard- I have seen people try to argue that, um, the reason why men are physically stronger and faster is because of socialization.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- ZUZuby
And if- if, um- if girls were raised differently and boys were raised differently, they'd be equally strong. And, you know, just when people say these things, I'm- I'm just kind of looking at them blankly, like, what? Like...
- CWChris Williamson
It's a bit like-
- ZUZuby
I-
- CWChris Williamson
It reminds me a lot of The Emperor's New Clothes-
- ZUZuby
It is.
- 15:26 – 18:46
UK vs US and ‘reality-warping’: ideology showing up in everyday institutions
- CWChris Williamson
Um, I- I- mercifully, and I w- don't know if you agree, the UK, to me, seems to be at least a little bit more attached to reality than America. Now, I don't know if that's simply because most of the big publishing, uh, and social commentator platforms are coming from America-
- ZUZuby
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... um, that you hear people like Loud With Crowder or Joe Rogan or Gavin McInnes or whoever it might be talking about these issues.
- ZUZuby
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, I- I haven't been personally exposed to any of it in the UK. I'm, you know, potentially.
- ZUZuby
Oh, okay.
- CWChris Williamson
Potentially.
- ZUZuby
Oh, I- I've- I've seen a lot of it here.
- CWChris Williamson
Really?
- ZUZuby
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that internet or real life?
- ZUZuby
Both.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow. Okay.
- ZUZuby
I mean, even in- even in the world of music.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- ZUZuby
Right? Because I've seen this in the world of music. I mean, a couple of weeks ago, I was filling out a form and, um, it got to the section where they compile, you know at the end of when you fill out a form and they ask you for your gender and ethnicity and that kind- I can- I can't remember what they call it, that kind of information?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZUZuby
Okay. I got to the gender section and there were about six different options in the dropdown list, or you could put other and write your own thing, and there was a little asterisk saying gender is not the same as sex. Gender is whatever you personally feel or identify as, okay? Uh, I've seen that before. I get down to ethnicity, and you can pick your own ethnicity too, all right? This is on like a professional form. And so, it says, yeah, similar- similar wording, ethnicity is not the same as race or skin color. It's- doesn't- it's not necessarily linked to your nationality or your origin. Ethnicity is defined as what you personally feel and what you personally identify as. So according to this form, I could write down that I'm a Native American woman-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ZUZuby
... and everybody is supposed to take that 100% seriously. Um, and, you know, stuff like that, it's just... And- and, you know, there- there's- there's lots of other things that I've seen. But yeah, I mean, that was in the UK. That was UK-based, um...
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- ZUZuby
There's quite a- there's quite a- there- there's a lot of- it's happening in the UK too.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZUZuby
It's happening in, uh, all the- the entire Anglosphere, as far as I'm aware. Uh, UK, USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand. I don't know if it's, um, maybe the English language, maybe 'cause we don't have, um, gendered nouns and stuff like that, so maybe it's easier for people to get away with this warping of reality. But, um, yeah, so I have seen it trickling in there. And, you know, with- with some stuff I don't re- there are certain things I don't really care about. There's lots of things that I think are silly, but it's like, whatever.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZUZuby
But, um, when certain lines start getting crossed...... then that's where I feel like people do need to step in and draw certain lines and boundaries and go, "Okay, wait, hang on. This isn't a good idea because X, Y, and Zed." You know, having- having Anthony Joshua identify as a woman and go and compete in women's boxing, that's- that's not a good idea, right? That's not- that's not good, that's not safe, that's not fair. Um, let's- let's not do that, right? But according to certain people's rules, as long as he feels that he's a woman, then according to them, that's okay. And again, it's just, no. (laughs)
- 18:46 – 20:55
The ‘eggshells’ culture and ideological enforcement: Rationality Rules example
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It's bizarre as well. I- I feel a lot like I'm treading on eggshells with this sort of stuff. Steve W-
- ZUZuby
Everybody does. Everybody does.
- CWChris Williamson
Steve W- Yeah. Steven Woodford, the guy behind Rationality Rules, very, very big YouTube channel, philosophy YouTube channel. Do you know who, do you know who I'm referring to?
- ZUZuby
I think I've heard of it, but I'm not familiar with the content.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Rationality Rules is a really good YouTube channel, and this guy understands, uh, cognitive biases, uh, ethics, and philosophy to a- a degree of fidelity like pretty much probably no one el- a young guy as well, like just out of university, quarter of a mil subs, and he treads on, uh, uh, got a bit of poo on his shoe talking about transgender athletes. And as far as I could see on the video, didn't... He- he maybe didn't have wholly formed views, but it wasn't... It was in no way derogatory, as far as I could see, et cetera, et cetera, and he gets denounced by the Atheist Society of America, which is like this company that he's worked up towards for his entire life. And you're like, hang on, are you people not supposed to be the ones that are the closest to reality, the ones that are the least sort of ideologically bound?
- ZUZuby
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like it should be complete reason, et cetera, et cetera, and then he goes on this huge tirade apology thing, and I'm-
- ZUZuby
Oh, no.
- CWChris Williamson
... watching this guy, uh, and he's desperately trying to save his YouTube channel. And I get it, like, you know, uh, I love his content and it's a shame that it came to that, and maybe he did make a genuine U-turn. But-
- ZUZuby
But how- how strong was the backlash that that threatens his YouTube channel?
- CWChris Williamson
Pretty strong. Like, I think, and I think more than anything, his concern was that as soon as he got ratified by this Atheist Society of America, I think it might be Texas, something like that-
- ZUZuby
Do you know why I'm... Sorry, do you know why I'm laughing, is because this- this sounds like, um, I often- I often joke that, uh, certain atheists are more religious than religious people.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
So when I, so when you're talking about like this Atheist Society like ostracizing this, um, heretic-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ZUZuby
... it makes me laugh because I'm just like, "Well, that's extremely re-" That's like a very-
- CWChris Williamson
Very religious view.
- ZUZuby
That's like a very relig- Yeah, li- that- that's a very religious sort of thing, you know what I mean?
- CWChris Williamson
I get it.
- ZUZuby
That's why I find that so funny.
- 20:55 – 26:27
Religion as a human ‘core’: why politics, diets, and identities become faith-like
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I mean, are people trying to find religion in their choice of gender? Or are they trying to find religion in their adoption of a political party and stuff like that now?
- ZUZuby
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, I know that that's something that you have, uh, commented on before, and I, thinking about it, I agree. There's a... Alain de Botton from The School of Life says something similar. He says that, um, our lack of connection to a greater sense of good and a greater sense of belonging, and all of the other things that were the trappings and the trimmings that came along with religion, are actually what people are now trying to substitute into their life.
- ZUZuby
Yeah. I've been saying that for a ve- I've been saying that for a very long time. I've just got a bigger megaphone now.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ZUZuby
Um, uh, uh, 'cause I've ob- I've observed it, right? I've observed it. The thing is, I think that fundamentally, uh, the wo- the word religion or religious sort of weirds out- weirds certain people out, like they don't- they don't really like it, but I think there's almost two ideas of religion. You've got- you've got organized, formal religion, Christianity, Judaism, you know, um, Islam, et cetera, but there's also, you know, there's also another meaning of religious, just like someone can go to the gym religiously.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZUZuby
Someone can- someone can- someone can do their- their... Someone can work on a computer program religiously and pe- people know what that means, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- ZUZuby
So there's... So human beings do, as far as I'm aware, like this isn't something I- I've sort of scientifically studied or anyw- anything, this is just anecdotal from living on the- on the Earth for three decades and a bit, right? Is that most people are... I think people sort of have a rel- what I'd call a religious core, okay? And that can be filled with an organized religion, but it can also be filled with a strong political ideology, uh, a strong dietary ideology. You get religious vegans, you get religious carnivores. Um, a strong, um, idea that could be socio-political, it could be, it could be a radical feminism, it could be, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Football team.
- ZUZuby
What... It could... Yes, ex- yeah. Well, football is very religious.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ZUZuby
Professional sports is very religious.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
I mean, it- ex- (laughs) it's- it's ver- it's very religious. It's the same- it's the same circuitry. Do you see what I mean? It's- it's the same circuitry that those things sort of act on. And so what I do find with, uh, you know, I don't- I don't wanna, I don- I don't like to ever group everybody, but with, you know, certain people who are atheists, who are against religion or whatever, is they can often be religious in a whole different way. You can even be a religious atheist-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZUZuby
... as far as I'm concerned, right? You have people who are... They're more militant and aggressive and firm in their atheism than I am in my own Christianity.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
Do you see what I mean, right? I- I'm- I'm- I'm kind of like a- a humble religious person, in that I accept that I could be wrong.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
Okay? So I believe that God exists. I- I believe (laughs) , I, uh, I s- I believe certain things, but I'll be the first to put my hands up and say, "You know what? I could be wrong."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZUZuby
"I could- I could die and it turns out the whole thing that I've been believing was- was just wrong." Right? That's entirely possible. But I've come across certain people that had debates and it's almost like they don't even...... they're so firm, they're like, "Absolutely no way on earth God exists. Like, you are totally wrong. All these other billions of people are totally wrong. I know this 100%. I know for certain that there's no afterlife." And I was like, "Whoa!" Like, whoa, like, to me that's weird 'cause I'm like, uh, I don't know, that's also to me like, wow, that's more hardcore-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- ZUZuby
... than, than I am.
- CWChris Williamson
It sounds like a theocrat. They sound like a theocrat-
- ZUZuby
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... about not being, like, a theocrat. (laughs)
- ZUZuby
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs) Yeah, thi- this, this is, this is kind of what I mean. So, uh, it's not, it's not to rip on anyone, like, you do have people who are traditionally religious who are the same, who think absolutely this is the one true faith and everybody else is wrong and everybody else is going to hell, and everyone who doesn't believe exactly what I believe is wrong. And to me it's, you know, that, that, you've, you've gotta have a level of humility because to me it's a, it's a faith, right? A faith means that you don't, you accept that you don't have all of the scientific evidence and data and whatever to cr- you know, like, nobody can write some proof, right? The, the, the counter, the counter to every person who believes in God is always, "Well, what's your proof that God exists?" And it's like, well, in a scientific sense, I can't, I can't give you, like, a formula or something that will prove... I, I, I can give you, like, my logical, rational explanation as to why I think God exists-
- 26:27 – 29:56
Mario Lopez, transgender kids, and the ‘never apologize if you’re not wrong’ rule
- CWChris Williamson
... totally agree. Um, a analogous situation that's occurred recently is this Mario Lopez debacle-
- ZUZuby
Oh.
- CWChris Williamson
... which has just exploded in America. So for the (laughs) listeners that don't know what I'm talking about, the guy that played A.C. Slater in Saved by the Bell that you watched on TV 20 years ago and has done, like, he's a host for MTV and he does other bits and stuff, he is for a long time the super clean, smiley guy on your TV, fantastic teeth, you know what I mean?
- ZUZuby
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
He's just there, he's being super positive, he's just getting, he's getting it done. And, um, he said on a, uh, I think it was actually Candace Owens' show-
- ZUZuby
Yeah, it was.
- CWChris Williamson
... where he sa- where he says this, and he says, "Look, I'm never one to tell anyone how to parent their kids, obviously, and I think if you come from a place of love, you really can't go wrong, but at the same time, my God, if you're three years old and you're saying you're feeling a certain way or you think you're a boy or a girl or whatever the case may be, I just think it's dangerous as a parent to make that determination then and be like, 'Okay, well, you're going to be a boy or a girl,' whatever the case may be. It's sort of alarming, and my gosh, I just think about the repercussions later on." Now that, to me, is almost a pedestrian paragraph-
- ZUZuby
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... because of, because of how many th- uh, ca- caveats he's had to put in place.
- ZUZuby
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like it's, "I'm not this, it's, I'm not being certain here and I'm just gonna try and be polite." Like, that, in anyone's world, that is overly polite. It's uh, literally, like-
- ZUZuby
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... verbose in its politeness.
- ZUZuby
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And he got annihilated.
- ZUZuby
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Did you watch the fallout of this?
- ZUZuby
I've seen some of it, yeah. I've seen some of it. Um, the only mistake he made was apologizing.
- CWChris Williamson
The c- the, the apology, the subsequent apology, "The comments I made were ignorant and insensitive, and I now have a deeper understanding of how hurtful they were," Lope- Lopez said in a statement. "I have, have been and always will be an ardent supporter of the LGBTQ community, and I am going to use this opportunity to better educate myself moving forward. I will be more informed and thoughtful." What's your-
- ZUZuby
That's good.
- CWChris Williamson
... what's your thoughts on that?
- ZUZuby
I, his initial statement was completely correct. Um, his apology was disappointing because he should not have apologized. Um, I know why he did, of course. I under- I, I can only imagine what kind of a fire and pressure he came under from his, I don't know, producers and colleagues and coworkers and whatever. But, um, if you're not wrong, don't apologize, and especially don't apologize to one of these crazy mobs that just goes after you because they go after, you know, they, they pick targets who they think are vulnerable or, or weak, right? It's like a, a, a herd of lions trying to find the ant- antelope that's limping-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
... so that they can (laughs) so that they can all, all mob on them in a pack, right? They'll never do it, they'll never do it one on one, but they'll, they'll come in a pack and they'll try to attack someone. And, uh, if you stand firm and you don't back down, then 48 hours later they'll find a different target. Um, so I think he should've just weathered the storm and then, um, but yeah, it's, it's, I'm a little disappointed that he, that he backed down to the mob because I thought people would've learned by now not to make apologies for things you're not sorry for. If I say two plus two equals four and someone else
- 29:56 – 38:55
Hard lines: women’s safety in sport and life-altering medical decisions for children
- ZUZuby
thinks it equals five and they set a mob on me to try to get me to say that it equals five, I'm not gonna do it. I'm gonna say, "No, it equals four. I don't care how many people are telling me it equals five, um, it equals four." And the point that he made was actually im- quite important because we were talking about certain lines not being crossed, and I think two of those lines which are sensitive, um, which are both things we've touched on here, one of them is when it comes to-... uh, people's safety and security. Okay? So for example, in the, in the whole sports thing, okay? So if you've got, um, in, uh, in any sort of physical contact sport or anything like that, if you have people who are biological men competing against women, or being in their changing rooms and stuff like that, that's, that's a safety and a security concern that you would have thought that, you know, anyone who considers themself any type of ... (laughs) You don't even need to be a feminist, right? But you w- you would have certainly thought that the, the fem- lots of the feminists would be up in arms about that. And I know some of them are. Um, but just, just any person who's reasonable and is concerned for women would be like, "Okay, mm, we, we don't wanna do that. That's, that's a bit of a concern." Um, and then the second line that I draw a hard line at is stuff involving kids, man. Stuff involving children. You know, I've got ... I'm not a parent yet, but I've got nine nieces and nephews, and he was specifically talking about a three-year-old. Okay? Three-year-olds don't know anything. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ZUZuby
Three, three-year-olds can't make decisions, let alone life-altering ones-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
... um, that'll affect everything from their mental well-being, to their physical bodies, to their ability to reproduce in the future. You wanna let someone decide that at the age of three? That is crazy. So, and that's basically what he was saying. He didn't even say it in all the word- words that I am.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
But, um ...
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
That's, that's a crazy idea. That's not ... That's ... Yeah, I mean, I, I don't even (laughs) I don't even have the words for it. It's one of those things I-
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I mean, s- so my, my business partner has a two-month-year-old and a two and a half year old.
- ZUZuby
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
And the times that I see that two and a half year old, he is easily five different characters an hour.
- ZUZuby
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
He's an astronaut, then he's a postman-
- ZUZuby
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... then he's, then he's a dinosaur, then he's doing something else, then he's doing an impression of Daddy, then he's this, that, and the other, and you don't take any of these things seriously.
- ZUZuby
No.
- CWChris Williamson
Because at that age, children don't know what's best for them, which is the exact reason why the parents are around.
- ZUZuby
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Now, the parents are around because if left to their own devices, the children would cause some sort of catastrophe. They'd ride the, they'd ride the dog into a, a stream-
- ZUZuby
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... or they'd ... You know what I mean? Something, something would go wrong. But, but, uh-
- ZUZuby
Th- they'll, they'll, they'll kill themselves, man. If you leave the average two-year-old alone for a couple of h- for an hour, uh, in a certain environment-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
... they will kill themselves, man.
- CWChris Williamson
There is something dangerous in that room. Even if you've nerfed the shit out of everything-
- ZUZuby
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... there's something in there that they can eat or, uh, put in their eye or do whatever it is. Um, you're totally right. And-
- ZUZuby
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... to hear ... Is it child abuse? Is it child abuse to allow children to make those sort of decisions or to support those sort of decisions?
- 38:55 – 47:32
Labeling as bullying and ‘struggle sessions’: how discourse gets shut down
- ZUZuby
It's a bullying tactic. It's a bullying tactic. That's all it is. It's just a tactic, right? People know that if you slap a label on somebody, whether that's racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, whatever, Islamophobic, whatever phobia or label people can s- try to slap on someone, and people do this all day. It's nothing new. It's just a, a cheap way to try to discredit someone. It's simply a tactic. And it's a, it's a really disgusting one. Firstly, because it's slanderous, and secondly, because it minimizes- it dilutes the terms. Okay? If you call everybody who disagrees with you racist, then you're diluting the term for ... You're diluting what racism actually is, and you're dia- you're minimizing harm that's caused by genuine racism. And you're also providing cover for actual racists. Okay? If ... I've, I've heard the term r- race- I see it slung around so much now, both in real life and on Twitter, that I myself am pretty desensitized to it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZUZuby
Okay? If someone's like, "Oh, that guy's a racist," my first ... You know, if you went back 15 years ago, my gut would be to believe them and to be like, "Oh, oh, what's going on?" Whereas now, my gut is to be like, "Oh, gosh. Like, here we go."
- CWChris Williamson
They disagree with someone.
- ZUZuby
Do, do you mean, do you mean they're actually a real racist, or do you just mean that they're a little bit right-wing, or they're a bit- or they're a conservative, or they like Trump? You know? And it's, it's, it's gotten silly and people are just amping up this rhetoric all the time. You're getting people on Twitter saying, "Oh, everybody who supports Trump, every single one of you is supporting white nationalism." I'm like, "What about the Black guys and the Latinos and the Black women, and all the, the, the Arab people who all like Trump?" I mean, you're, you're saying they're all white nationalists? Like, come on. Just think. Like, stop using such ridiculous ... You're here criticizing Trump for his rhetoric while staying- saying stuff that's far more inflammatory and divisive than anything that comes out of his mouth. So, it's just, uh, people just need to kinda take a step back and chill. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
It does, it does stop us from getting to the, the nuance of the discussion as well, right? Because as soon as you go from being anything which isn't zero-
- ZUZuby
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... if you- as soon as you add a one or a two or a three all the way up to 100, you get pushed to 100-
- ZUZuby
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... which stops, stops the ability to have the virtuous middle, which is actually where the devil's in the details, right, and the rubber meets the road at the point where people want to find out what's the ... That's the reason I enjoy doing this podcast. I like to deconstruct stuff so I can find out exactly where the rubber meets the road with particular-
- ZUZuby
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... issues. And it's one of the most interesting things I think you can do when you're conversing with people. But as soon as, like you say, someone that you disagree with gets given a -ism or a-
- ZUZuby
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... obi- obier, and you're like, "Well, there we go." That's-
- ZUZuby
Uh, they-
- CWChris Williamson
Conversation's over.
- ZUZuby
Yeah, they tried it with me. It didn't work.
- CWChris Williamson
What, what -isms and obiers did they give you?
- ZUZuby
Um, sexism and transphobia.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- ZUZuby
Yeah. Uh, both for the same tweet as well.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ZUZuby
Um, uh, but it, it doesn't stick because it doesn't work. I just make people look stupid when they call me anything like that. And ultimately, it's not true, so I don't care. If someone says- if someone calls me sexist, I will literally laugh in their face. Okay? I might even agree and amplify it just to, like, make a joke, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
I'll tell them, I don't know-
- CWChris Williamson
It's that ridiculous.
- ZUZuby
Yeah, it's that ridiculous. I'll tell them to, I don't know, get back in the kitchen or whatever.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZUZuby
Even if it's a guy who says it, just like, whatever. It's, it's such a dumb thing to say. Anybody who knows me knows that I'm not sexist. So, I don't- I'm not gonna go on the defensive and start-... claiming my righteousness. It's just, like, just, "No, go away." Like, if you call someone something, the, the appropriate answer, if someone accuses you of something with no evidence and that you're not, is to, you know, call, call them an a-hole, because that's what they're being. No, really. If someone just came up to you, Chris, and was like, "Oh, you're a racist-"
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- 47:32 – 54:40
Satire, ‘woke geography,’ and Titania McGrath as a cultural mirror
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so one of the other things I wanted to discuss is, uh, Titania McGrath. I don't know how to pronounce her name. Titania? Titanium McGrath?
- ZUZuby
Ti- Titania. Titania.
- CWChris Williamson
Titania McGrath.
- ZUZuby
I believe, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so I have, this is the first time that the listeners will hear it. I've managed to confirm her/her character to come on the podcast.
- ZUZuby
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, my goal, she's currently performing at Edinburgh Fringe, if you are at the Fringe, 9:00 PM every night. I suggest that you go and see it. The show has had fantastic reviews already. Um, what I wanted to do was to get the actress that plays her to sit down-
- ZUZuby
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and to have Andrew Doyle, the man who's behind her, as her publicist.
- ZUZuby
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
And I wanted to have this back and forth, but apparently one of the agreements is that the actress won't, um, won't speak in character on interviews. Which is really, a really good idea.
- ZUZuby
Oh.
- CWChris Williamson
Because, I mean, if people actually begin thinking-
- ZUZuby
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... that she is her, all hell will break loose. But there was a tweet that came out that is probably the best one I think I've seen her do.
- ZUZuby
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Which is, "If you only have sex with people you find attractive, you might want to ask yourself why you're such a superficial bigot." (laughs)
- ZUZuby
(laughs) Oh, gosh. I- I- I think my favorite one was that being a cis white male is an act of violence or something like that.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ZUZuby
I think that was like... (laughs) I- that was one of my favorite ones.
- CWChris Williamson
One- one of the things that's super interesting about this, 'cause Andrew's British, right? And also the whole- the fact that he got ousted due to, like, a typo from some book publishing thing. I don't know whether you saw this, but-
- ZUZuby
I don't know. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... he- he... the only reason, like I say, he never wanted to- he never wanted to be the person that's, like, behind this account, right? For the people that don't know what we're talking about, it is a- a fake social justice warrior account satir- satirically going through saying these sort of things, the absolute extreme example of what you might see on Twitter. Um, got banned, then people are, "Oh, hang on. You can't ban this. It's a satire account." These are actually allowed under Twitter's terms of service. It's stipulated it's a satire account, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and due to some- (laughs) some guy, a- a book publishing thing accidentally fired on some blog somewhere that it was Andrew as the author.
- ZUZuby
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And then everybody trickled down 'cause he's the same guy that is behind, uh, Jonathan Pie as well. The Jonathan Pie.
- ZUZuby
Yeah, he does some writing for him, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, and, uh, apparently now it's just, like, all hell- similar to yourself, all- all hell broke loose. Um, but yeah. The- the fact that- the fact that he's got that understanding and that nuance strikes at what I was talking about in the UK again. Because, again, for me, this sort of stuff, like, cis male and- and- and the- the (laughs) superficial bigotry and stuff like that-
- ZUZuby
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... it's- it's not language that I hear. It isn't.
- ZUZuby
Okay.
- 54:40 – 1:00:43
Navigating the future: truth, authenticity, open-mindedness, and updating beliefs
- ZUZuby
Wow. Well, you mentioned Jordan Peterson, so I'll take one of his rules, which is tell the truth or at least don't lie.... right? I think that's important. I'm, I'm really big on authenticity and I always have been, both in my music and outside of it, you know. Just trying to be honest and not say things that maybe are beneficial or might seem expedient in the short term, but in the long term are likely to do you damage or get you caught in some sort of web of lies. So, just being honest. And then, and then, yeah, that goes further to sort of standing your ground. Standing your ground, but also being not in- not as in digging yourself in on an idea and not allowing other people to challenge it. No, no, no. Like, do the opposite of that. Get outside of your echo chamber. But, um, don't be afraid. Don't crumble at the first question, right? If someone, if someone challenges something or someone wants you to apologize for something that you're not sorry for-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- ZUZuby
... then you don't have to apologize. And it would be a, it would be an empty apology anyway. If I do something and, um, I'm not sorry about it and I'm forced into some kind of apology, then I'm still not sorry about it. It's just, you're just saying words to-
- CWChris Williamson
I said the words.
- ZUZuby
Yeah, I said the words, um, but that doesn't really, that doesn't really mean anything. Um, and then beyond that, I guess, uh, just being, being, trying to be open-minded and talk to different people of different viewpoints. And you know, if you've got something that you're... Or, and- and, you know, just be willing to learn, um, and be willing to have your mind changed. It's, it's, uh, the, the reason any of us know anything is 'cause we've been wrong in the past. Okay? Pretty much everything you know is because you were wrong at some point. So, if you are never wrong or you feel like you're never wrong, you're probably not learning anymore, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Probably not updating the OS appropriately.
- ZUZuby
E- e- exactly, exactly. Every day you should, you should be being wrong about something almost every day. Nothing catastrophic, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
But, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
... yeah. You should be, "Oh, okay." Someone... I say something and then you're like, "Oh, no, actually duh-duh-duh. Look at, this is the data or these are the facts, or have you thought this?" You know? If I'm being intellectually honest, if it's a better argument or it's a fact that goes against what I believed, it's like, "Oh, okay. No, you're right." And then I incorporate that into my thing and then hopefully the next time you have a conversation with the next person, you're a little bit wiser, and that continues to happen. And I kind of look forward to, um... It's one reason I'm not so worried about getting older, is like, I look forward to, uh, seeing just how much I'll know (laughs) and what kind of person I'll be in 10 years, in 15 years, in 20 years, uh, 'cause that's when... Yeah. That's when it should all start peaking. And I think that's why someone like Jordan Peterson, his rise has just been crazy. 'Cause it's really interesting. I mean, it's rare for someone to become world-famous in their mid-50s, isn't it?
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely.
- ZUZuby
But it's almost... But you were talking about that- that striking, and it's like he's been building up and building up and building up and then he's sort of in his-
- CWChris Williamson
Fucking half a century of preparation.
- ZUZuby
Yeah (laughs) . Yeah, li- literally. And then when the, when the spotlight came on him, it was like whoa.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh my God, yeah.
- ZUZuby
Whoa (laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
"This is... You fools, this isn't even my final form."
- ZUZuby
Yeah, yeah, literally (laughs) . It was like, "Whoa." Like, "This guy's a, a phoenix." Just sort of like, "Whoa." Like-
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely.
- ZUZuby
... "This guy's a force." You know?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
Um, but had the spotlight been on him maybe 20 years ago or 30 years ago, it wouldn't have been... He wouldn't have formulated his ideas-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZUZuby
... and been able to articulate them in the, in the way that he does, which is very masterful. Um, I went to see him live last year and it was, it was really interesting. It's very- It's-
- CWChris Williamson
Wher- Where did you see him?
- ZUZuby
Uh, Oxford.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, cool. I saw him at the Manchester show. Manchester show was fantastic as well.
- ZUZuby
Yeah, yeah. And it's really interesting 'cause it's... Yeah. I mean, it- it's weird. He's touring like a rock star just doing these talks.
- CWChris Williamson
I know. Chatting about, chatting about, like-
Episode duration: 1:00:43
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