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My First MillionHow I Built A $600M Protein Bar Company In My Basement | RxBar Founder
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65 min read · 12,620 words- 0:00 – 8:32
RX Bar's path to $600M
- SPShaan Puri
Today we have the creator of RXBAR on the podcast. This guy started in his mom's basement with $5,000 and built a protein bar that he sold five years later for $600 million. And he tells us the story of RXBAR, his new protein bar, and why he's doing it again. And we got to brainstorm what are four other ideas that he thinks somebody could start today, trends, opportunities, white spaces in the market, and how he thinks about them, how he even created RXBAR using the same process that he's gonna outline today. So that's this episode with Peter Rahal. [upbeat music] All right, so here's how I wanna start this. You created this, this little bar, the RXBAR, that you made, I think, in your mom's basement with you and your elementary school buddy. You each kicked in $5,000, and five years later, you sell it for $600 million, which is amazing.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPShaan Puri
And now you're back, and you're doing this bar.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPShaan Puri
The David bar, which I've been eating pretty religiously. All right, let's talk a little bit about RXBAR and then David. I wanna hear kind of this story. So we've-- I think, generally, the story is out there, so I don't wanna make you rehash too much of it.
- SPSpeaker
Sure.
- SPShaan Puri
Could you give us, like, the cliff notes of the story? And then I wanna t- I wanna hear about a couple things. You said you read one article in Inc. and forwarded it to Jared, so I wanna kinda latch onto that. But give us first just the cliff notes of RX.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, so the cliff notes, um, you know, in Chicago, 2010, '11, '12 at the time, like, there was an emerging tech scene. Groupon was there, and it's sort of like if you weren't doing some sort of information technology, you were a loser. There was no attention or love towards, like, a food brand. It was, it was just-
- SPShaan Puri
No, no status.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, it was just, like, no status, like... And so we just wanted an oppor- Yeah, we wanted a good job. We wanted an opportunity to be successful. I had a background in food, which was really helpful on the, on the supply chain side. And then Jared's, like, my total counterpart, like, very, very level-headed, um, reliable, organized. Like, I'm more of, like, the creative type, I'd say. And I always like to trivialize innovation 'cause, you know, as, as an entrepreneur, it's like you have all these ideas. And it was basically, like, I just read Inc. and I was like, "Hey, Jared." I just sent it to him, and I was like, "10,000 bucks, we can do a nutrition bar." And it was, like, some bad article, you know? Like, nothing, nothing to it.
- SPShaan Puri
What, what was the premise of the article? What did, what did it say?
- SPSpeaker
It was sort of like an inspirational thing of, like, you can start a bus- like, very low-cost ways to start a company, basically.
- SPShaan Puri
Right.
- SPSam Parr
And it said, like, l- protein bar?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, nutrition bar.
- SPShaan Puri
It's like a wikiHow article. [laughs]
- SPSam Parr
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Which, like, showed why it's a low-status thing to do, right? Like, anyone can do it, you know? Um, and I always was into nutrition bars, and so we just started making... You know, just started-- We just started taking actions towards making it and, right? Like, where you start is never where you end up. And the, I was into CrossFit, and so we saw, like a, a, a distribution channel emerge. It was very clear. I was like, I looked at Whole Foods and all the traditional food retail outlets and had no idea how to get there. And it was hyper-competitive. I was like, "How are we gonna compete?" Whereas CrossFit emerged, these gyms are popping up 2012, '13, no competition. You were not allowed on the shelf if you weren't paleo. So that, that was, like, the perfect example of an uncompetitive market, a small market that was growing like crazy that we could go build distribution in, and, and we can make the product at home. So just went for it. And once you, you know, you burn the boats and just jump off the bridge and figure out how to fly.
- SPShaan Puri
And you're-- So you're literally making bars in, like, your mom's basement type of thing.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, it was... We bought-- We had a f- five-quart, then eventually got a 20-quart sort of vertical mixer. And, like, we didn't know how to form the products. We had to figure out how to, like, form and package and...
- SPSam Parr
And you said, uh, there's this really great article. You're like, "You know, it sounds cool." We're, we're in there just, like, in the lab, mixing these things together and making it, and you're like, "It didn't feel cool."
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSam Parr
"It, it, it felt horrible. Like, we-- People were making fun of us."
- SPSpeaker
Oh, yeah. Like, I, I remember... I think another thing, you just can't care what people think, and it's also a great test of who, who actually cares about you and who's a good influence. Like, you're the sum of who you surround yourself with. Like, you want your friends supporting you and saying, "No, you have to work on the weekends." Like, not saying drag, trying to drag you out, pull you down. But yeah, looking at-- I mean, looking at-- From the outside, looking at what we were, Jared and I were doing, there's no way it was successful. It was gonna be successful. It was just some local, local little thing.
- SPShaan Puri
Were, were you doing CrossFit, or you just literally saw it as a distribution channel?
- SPSpeaker
I was doing CrossFit, yeah. I, I got, I got-- I was in the part of the CrossFit religion, so.
- SPShaan Puri
So you take a box to your, uh, to your gym, and you're like, "Hey, I made these"?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, I just show up at-- with Tupperware. And so there was, like, little consumer insights of like, "Hey, what do you think?" And then built a relationship with the owner. I'm like, "I would love to sell some product here." And of course, they're good people, and, you know, it starts there. And then in the theory, so it's like if it's gonna be successful at one CrossFit gym, why wouldn't it be successful across others? And so-
- SPSam Parr
What, what, what... Did it taste good? So I eat RXBARs all the time, by the way. I love 'em. But, like, it-- the first time you open it up, the, you-- it looks different than a granola bar. It l- uh, you have to get used to, like, it being made out of dates and it being dark. What did they say at first to the dark bar, and were they, were they any good at first?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, it's-- So they're, they're really good at first because they're made to order. So we never carried any inventory, so everything was super fresh. So that certainly helped. And the cons- uh, customer back then was all paleo people who were very sup- familiar with LARABAR. So there was a familiarity to it that was, um, helpful for the adoption.
- 8:32 – 14:03
Branding to solve a problem
- SPSam Parr
I kind of triangulated a bunch of articles, and, like, your revenue was, like, something like $2 million a year, then, like, $7 million, and then, like, $160 million, or something, like, ridiculous like that. W- is that accurate? And if s- and, and if that is accurate, I think that coincides with, like, the rebrand, making your rebrand or your new labels the greatest value creation, like, to ever exist. [chuckles]
- SPShaan Puri
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Best use of designers. [laughs]
- SPSam Parr
Yeah. Yeah, totally.
- SPSpeaker
Uh, yeah, basically it was, like, dot-com and Amazon for three years, and we'd, like, put our foot into some retailers, and the, the current branding or the old branding didn't work. So it was like, didn't have product-market fit where we, where we... With our c- core early adopters. Whenever we started to go to, like, the mass market or not our core, it was like, "Eh, this ain't working." So it was j- So basically, we timed the rebranding with retail. And so there was a year before the 161 that was 36, and that was basically, like, getting into, call it early adopters of re- food retail. So the Wegmans and these, like, Publix, these regional ones that are, uh, really high quality. And then once that worked, the larger ones adopted. And so it was, like, 36 and then the most of the market at, uh, 161.
- SPSam Parr
So 7, 36, 161. That's insane.
- SPSpeaker
Well, the most insane thing is actually, like, just the way we were-- we used profitable sales to finance the growth. Like, there wasn't a, like, a big equity check that came in that financed inventory.
- SPShaan Puri
So how does that work? 'Cause that scaling is so crazy, right? Even the pro... Even if you're super profitable at seven, how do you buy inventory for 36? Did you have a really fast turnover or-
- SPSpeaker
A line of credit-
- SPShaan Puri
Supply chain-
- SPSpeaker
Line of credit personally guaranteed by your parents-
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... for 400,000. But we actually didn't dip into it, which is funny. So that's nice. It gives you confidence.
- SPSam Parr
And you started the business with 10 Gs, 10 grand?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPSam Parr
Y- 5,000 each.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, it was brutal. Um, and then, so just profitable s- you know, dot-com, they give you cash, you ship product, so your, your, uh, it's a... cycle's much better. Um, and then like, it's, it goes back to, like, sales cures all, right?
- SPShaan Puri
T- we talked a little bit about the rebrand before, but who, who did that? You did that? You hired an agency to do that? Like, what was the genius behind that rebrand? 'Cause this was... This stood out to me, you know, from moment one, and it sounds like-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- SPShaan Puri
... I'm not alone, that this helped, like, explode sales in, outside of CrossFit.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. So we, we, we hired an agency called SCOTT&VICTOR. Very talented brand strategist. But I think something I wanna mention that's really, really important that... Because I get people coming to me all, wanting to do rebrands all the time, and they're so fixated on the agency that they think the agency comes in and does it. But really, the responsibility and accountability goes on the brand owner to articulate the problem to solve and to communicate it in a brief for the assignment, for the creative to figure out how to solve the problem.
- SPSam Parr
What did you write in that brief?
- SPSpeaker
So, so, like, the output of our design is very simple. Like, we had a name problem. Rx meant prescription in, in the mass market, but it, in CrossFit, it meant doing something of a high standard. So in the language, in the culture of CrossFit, doing something Rx, it was language. So if you did a workout, the first e- question you get is like, "Did you do it Rx?" And so it had a different meaning in this c- this culture than it did the normal American culture. So, so that was a problem, name problem. Uh, and then it was very clear Rx meant nothing, and it wasn't a valuable name. You remembered it, which was nice, but it was ca- a source of confusion. Okay? So you pull that through to the design, it's the, the logo and name is very small So we've minimized it. Second, we have... When you formulate a product that's minimal ingredient, and you could, and, like, designed the way ours is, you can claim anything: gluten-free, soy-free, dairy-free, high protein.
- SPShaan Puri
Right.
- SPSpeaker
The list goes on. None of that mattered when we sampled it to people, and the only thing mattered is when I'd flip over the back and say, "It's RXBAR." They're like, "What is it?" And be like, "It's like eating three egg whites, two dates, six almonds, four cashews." So that back of label thing that I referenced earlier, that was a value communication. And second, we're in... The third point, we're in protein no man's land. The market was at 20, we're at 12.
- SPShaan Puri
Grams of protein you're talking about?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. So we're kind of like, for protein people, they're like, "Yeah, it's not enough." But if you just l- lead with egg whites, so three egg whites is the first thing. That's, like, our hierarchies, actually three egg whites.
- SPShaan Puri
Right.
- SPSpeaker
And so that creates a lot of consumer surplus because when you go shopping in a cafe for breakfast and you get egg whites, you get charged a premium. So egg whites are associated with premium, they're associated with quality, and they're more expensive, and so that was a great way to communicate sort of value and surplus. So all these things are in the brief, like name doesn't matter, here's the only thing that matters. We don't wanna be paleo positioned because that is a death trap. It's a laziness trap. Um, and so all those factors are laid out in a brief, and then the designer really extracts, synthesizes, and pulls that out. And they're not, they're not just a designer, they're like a brand strategist. So i- it's very important for, like, any entrepreneur. Like, it's not just, you gotta do the work and actually desi- d- define the problems and then you bring in an agency.
- SPShaan Puri
You, um, now you have this thing, which I feel like you did an amazing job
- 14:03 – 16:22
David Protein
- SPShaan Puri
on the brand. I think we talked about this on the pod. We're like, "Dude, did you see the RX guy? He's back. He's got this new bar. Love the name. Love the branding." Right off the bat.
- SPSam Parr
Can I read out some of these, uh, what are some of the lines from his site, Shaan?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPShaan Puri
The copywriting on the site?
- SPSam Parr
Yeah.
- SPShaan Puri
Yeah, do it.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPSam Parr
It's beautiful. Your new thing is a protein bar, and the whole shtick is that, like, Quest, which is, like, a leading, uh, protein bar, is only 20 grams of protein, but 150 calories. You're roughly 150 calories and, like, 26 or 27 grams of protein. And so the copywriting on the website's beautiful. It says, "The genius of our product is it has the protein of a meal, but the calories of a snack. We thank our predecessors in the protein industry, but we'll take it from here. Meet David, your protein bar, idealized. I saw the angel in marble and carved it until I set him free." All these, these are all, like, Instagram quotes or copy on the website. Uh, "Be beautiful. Protein is essential to maintaining your skin's firmness and elasticity in hair and scalp, nail health. It participates in practically every process of a cell in your body." So you're explaining how important the, um, protein is. But then you have this one line where it's, um, you, like, have this graph on your website where you say how many grams of protein per calorie, and you include Quest and Luna, I think, and a couple others, or LÄRABAR, something like that. But then you even include cod, which I thought is ridiculous.
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSam Parr
Because when I saw that graph, I was like, "Wait, you're telling me that David is even more protein dense per calorie than cod?" And so it's quite good. Oh, here's the part that I love. You say, um, you know, "We are a company that is here to make your bodies better. We're gonna give you protein, and it just so happens some of our products might be edible, but some in the future may not be."
- SPSpeaker
We focus on making... We, we build tools to help you increase muscle and decrease fat. And so that can come in, I think... That's our c- that's our mission. So whether that's food, beverage, or apparel, or... That's h- what gives us permission to go create and serve. Um, and, and that came from, like, my observation in the nutrition bar space is, like, that's the most fundamental thing people want. Uh, so we wanna deliver that in the best way possible.
- SPShaan Puri
The thing that would be the most fun for us is if we got to sit down with the founder of RXBAR and just shoot the shit and brainstorm business ideas. And we asked you beforehand, we said, "Hey, this is what we like to do. Are you the kind of founder who your brain never turns off? You're always seeing, you know, opportunities that somebody could go do," and you sent us a little list. So let's start with that list, and I think the fun way to do this is
- 16:22 – 27:53
Idea 1: Differentiated vasodilator
- SPShaan Puri
I'll just read the name of the thing you wrote. You didn't give us any details, and you kind of pitch the idea of what you see as a potential opportunity here. So idea one, vasodilator.
- SPSpeaker
Yes. Okay. So I'm a big s... I, like, I think history's really important to study in business. Like, I think it doesn't get enough credit to, like, look for the patterns in history. And in two... So for this one, in 2003, '04, and '05, I was in high school. This product called NO2 came to market, and it just blew up the supplement industry i- in a good way. Um-
- SPShaan Puri
Pre-workout, right?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, it was like they saying you got these, like, big pump. Um-
- SPSam Parr
Was that, like, NO-Xplode?
- SPSpeaker
That turned into NO-Xplode.
- SPSam Parr
Me and Arie were just talking about it. She said she likes drinking pre-workout, and I remember the days of taking that, and it would, like, make me NO-Xplode out my butt.
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSam Parr
Like, it was like the w- it was, like, the worst. It was like cocaine-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- SPSam Parr
... except it would make you, like, diarrhea.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
And so what happened is people started adding different features to it. But it has, like, having healthy blood flow is, like, really important. And if you look at the c- the market today, it's, like, super s... I call it, like, chains and gains, like screaming to not a sophisticated audience. Like, it's just for pure gains. And so I, I would say there's probably an opportunity to sort of commercialize something on just the wh- broader benefits of, uh, healthy blood flow. And, you know, it's like, for especially for men, like, ED's a huge one. Like, I think the positioning of the market, I think they're all very, very, very bodybuilding oriented, and I think there's one for, like, pedestrians.
- SPSam Parr
Dude, do you remember the one, Shaan, the deer one? The d- it's like, it's like-
- SPShaan Puri
Buck deer?
- SPSam Parr
Bucked Up. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's, it's sort of like analogous to dick pills in, uh, gas stations.
- SPSam Parr
Versus HIM.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, versus HIM. Yeah, exactly.
- SPShaan Puri
There was a guy who came and spoke at one of Sam's conferences. He created, um... Sam, what's the guy's name? He created the Method soap, and then he's created the Band-Aid brand, and then he created Olly gummies-
- SPSam Parr
Uh, Ryan
- SPShaan Puri
... or whatever, like, vitamins.
- SPSam Parr
Air Ryan.
- SPShaan Puri
Air Ryan, that's the guy. He's created three brands that are all, like, big in Target, different categories. And he talked about, he goes, "What I, what I could do, I could just walk through a depart- a gr- like a store, like a Target or a grocery store." And it's like, "What are you looking for when you're walking through those aisles?" He goes, "I'm looking for a sea of sameness."
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPShaan Puri
"And anytime I see a category on a shelf where they're all positioning, or they're all chasing the same target, or they're all positioned the same way..." So for example, he said Band-Aids. Band-Aids were all sort of boring, neutral, try to be the color of your skin, blah, blah, blah. So they made a Band-Aid brand that was the opposite. It was, like, very loud. Badge of honor for, for a boo-boo, right? Or vitamins looked a certain way, they came in and tried to do it differently.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPShaan Puri
So do you have a similar sort of philosophy where you see, let's say, you know, these vaso- vasodilators, like, uh, they're all bro'd out, and you're like, "If I just reposition the same product, I would have a new audience"?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, like, I think Eric, Eric's strategy is very much design-orient- like, differentiation through design, and that's, like, looking for... Um, I don't have a clear of strategy. Um, I just really focus on differentiation, and actually, like, h- determining how competitive a category is and how, how easily you can dif- differentiate with what I call, like, valuable novelty. Um-
- 27:53 – 32:28
Idea 2: The coffee of sleep
- SPShaan Puri
All right, let's go to idea number two. I don't even know what this means. Night occasion in general. [laughing] I don't know. Is that an idea? What is that?
- SPSpeaker
Okay. So again, I, I feel, I view myself as like an anthropologist. So if you look at the morning occasion, uh, it is very fixed, right? It's all around coffee, waking up, sunlight. Sunlight observation is a new one, thanks to, I think Huberman's a big change culture in that way. So circadian rhythm, um, taking supplements maybe, or morning pills, whatever rituals there are. The, the morning occasion's kind of like clear in terms of like what products or services are there. And so sleep hygiene and the sleep occasion is something that it's become very clear that's super important. And if you look at that, to me it's a wide open, like there isn't a coffee of the sleep occasion.
- SPShaan Puri
At night you have what, like magnesium maybe or something like that, right? There's like one maybe cat product.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. No one's owning it. Right now you brush your teeth, right? So there's like Colgate's got it, you got... But like there is a huge opportunity to sort of be the brand for that occasion. There's some obstacles obviously, but, um, to me that's like the, if I'm an entrepreneur, I'm really studying that.
- SPSam Parr
That's a strange insight to have. What made you get to that conclusion?
- SPSpeaker
You just gotta think about everything's occasion based, right? Like the best example is like champagne dominates a celebration occasion. It's a g- outside of that, it, it's a terrible product, right?
- SPSam Parr
Or for like for RXBAR, it's like I'm driving somewhere. I want, I'm going to a gas station and I want to get something healthy.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, like RXBAR was obviously on the go, it was a big occasion, but to be honest, it was egg, it was because of the egg whites. There was some signals, it was breakfast. It was sort of like a great fast breakfast. When I think about like everyone's talking about sleep, you have eight sleep, you have all these brands kind of getting there, but on the consumer s- like the food or beverage or supplement side, there's all these like sleep packs things. But the, like the real opportunity is like how do you be the coffee of fucking sleep? And-
- SPShaan Puri
[laughing]
- SPSpeaker
... that's where I would spend time. You know, coffee's the best drug. It's the biggest drug. Uh, so is there something like that? There's some brands working on it, but that, that, I think there's, there's-
- SPSam Parr
Which promising ones?
- SPSpeaker
Uh, there's one called, um, uh, Moonbrew. There's one called, uh, Beam. I use both of them. One has melatonin, one doesn't. That's the big controversial one. Melatonin's actually sort of, you could have... Melatonin was actually something that could be, um, contrarian. Um, people say it's bad for you. It's hebebriformate exogenous hormone. But then there's also literature that's tying antioxidants, too. Those are good, but I, me and my fiancé, we find, we find ourselves having this co- like this beverage at a small dose before bed and it's like a nice ritual.
- SPShaan Puri
Yeah, I think that's brilliant actually. The, uh, the, the mar- h- basically, like looking at moments and looking for, for openings. There's a Chinese company, I think it was, maybe it was ByteDance, the company that owns TikTok, maybe it was a, the one that owns WeChat, not sure. But they, uh, at their annual meeting, I remember going and watching their annual meeting, which was weird 'cause it's all in Mandarin. I don't speak Mandarin, but I'm like sitting there trying to translate these slides 'cause I was like, "I wanna learn from where other people are not learning from to try to see if there's any alpha there." And one of the key interesting things was they, their opening slide was all of the moments of the day, like, so a 24-hour cycle broken into 15-minute in- intervals. And what they did was they were like, "We wanna have a product or an app for every moment of your day."
- SPSpeaker
Interesting. That one-
- SPShaan Puri
It was this, like, totally dominating philosophy, like-
- SPSpeaker
That's insane
- SPShaan Puri
... American companies, you couldn't come out and say it, but, like, obviously Zuck probably feels the same way.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Yeah. [laughs]
- SPShaan Puri
Uh, but they were like, "You're in line for coffee. What's the in line coffee app?" Like, we need an app that is designed to be awesome for that moment. Okay, now you have an hour in bed scrolling at night. What do we have for that? That's like the TikTok app where you're just gonna infinitely swipe and be amused. And so th- seeing them think that way, I was like, "Oh, wow." And then that creates white spaces. So you say, oh, you might think photos is a crowded category. Like, it seemed like photos was dominated by Facebook and Instagram, and then Snapchat came out and was like, "Oh, we'll use photos for messaging and instead of photos for memories." And the way they, the way they just looked at it with a different lens, suddenly photos was totally a wide open, multi-billion dollar opportunity that you had to look at it in some other angle, um, in order to see it.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, and I, and I would just emphasize, like the consumer's all that matters, and so putting yourself and empathizing and going through that is the be- it's where it all starts in my view.
- SPShaan Puri
Yeah, I like that. Do you also look for, like, inspi- product inspiration from other places? Like, I know some people that do CPG that they're
- 32:28 – 36:58
Idea 3: Continuous Testosterone meter
- SPShaan Puri
like, they travel a bunch, or they'll be like, "Oh yeah, in Thailand they drink this. What is this? Well, if we just take this and now we wrap it in a new label that's, like, American friendly, we might be able to have a product here."
- SPSpeaker
So, like, basically you wanna consume as much information, collect as many dots so you can connect the dots at some point. And the best example of that is, like, I had an internship in Belgium and we supplied Innocent Beverage, which is a smoothie company, and in their label they, they would... The innovative thing they did is they would, um, in their ingredients statement, it would be like one apple, one banana, and half a lem- lemon or a pinch of lemon. And obviously I took, I took that dot and connected it to our RXBAR, which on the back of our label was, uh, two dates, three eggs, six almonds, four cashews, et cetera. But that insight was fr- from just purely observing different markets and, and different brands and different cultures.
- SPShaan Puri
And you're just, like, journaling or to keep, keep track of these? Or it's all just in your head?
- SPSpeaker
It's in the way. Yeah, it's just in the way.
- SPShaan Puri
All right, let's finish up these ideas, then I wanna ask you about the bar businesses. All right, so idea number three, continuous testosterone monitor.
- SPSpeaker
Oh.
- SPShaan Puri
This is pretty fascinating.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, yeah, yeah. I think the, the, the American male cares so much [laughs] about testosterone.
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
And I think, I don't know if this is feasible, I mean, we do blood tests, so... And I actually, like, looked into this for, like, 10 minutes. Um, but if you were to have some way to measure testosterone or some, some broader hormones in a continuous way, so, like, when you wake up, you monitor it, like I, I think there's, there's a lot of demand for that, and I think the American male would love that.
- SPShaan Puri
Sam, you're the American male. What, what are your T levels right now?
- SPSpeaker
Dude, I wanna know my T 24/7. [laughs]
- SPShaan Puri
Are, are you, are you 400? Where are you at? Is it higher than your math SAT score was or... [laughs] That, that's the test. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] I don't even... I, what's the SAT out of? I don't even know.
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
What, uh... Do you not get, you don't get yours checked, Shaan?
- SPShaan Puri
I've ne- I, I've never got... I don't think I've... Maybe I got it checked once. I don't think I've ever really... I definitely am not the, uh, the typical American male.
- SPSpeaker
Wait, Peter, do you, do you, have you, do you get yours checked? Yeah, I do it quarterly. Do you have, uh... Man, by the way, I, uh, I'm, was an investor or am an investor in that thing called Levels- Yeah ... which is a con- continuous glucose monitor and like, uh, yeah, yeah, everyone has to figure this out, and if you do figure it out, it's pretty awesome. But do you have some, like, because you're friends with, like, uh, I think Peter Thiel is one of your investors, because you're, you're a young, rich guy in the health space, do you have some crazy Bryan Johnson setup where you have someone measuring your nighttime erections and all this crazy stuff? No. I've, so I've gone from, like, getting close to being obsessive about measuring everything to just now I'm, like, totally over... It's, like, so easy to overdo it. My, my routine is, um, I'm currently off supplements right now. I just wanna get a baseline of my blood markers. I test it quarterly, um, and then normally I take, um, supplements in the AM and PM.
- SPShaan Puri
I think, I think culture's going that way. This is my, this is my prediction for 2025, which is that I think everybody got really inspired and sort of overanalyzed everything through Huberman and Bryan Johnson. I love those guys, but I think the, uh, the average person, it's way too much work for way li- way too little payoff. And, um, and we all kinda know the sort of core four or five things you should do, and most people don't even do those. And so without doing the basic fundamentals, like, none of the rest really matters, the, the, the sort of fine-tune optimizing. And so I think there's gonna be a giant r- retreat back to simple- simplicity and basics for, like, health craze.
- SPSpeaker
So for the listener, Bryan Johnson's, like, a, a tech billionaire who likes... The headline is he spends $2 million a year on his health to live forever, whatever. He's got this thing called the Rejuvenation Olympics where you can get your blood work done and it ranks you, like, on a s- uh, amongst tens of other thousands of, of people to let you know, like, how good your blood work is and how long you're gonna live, whatever. There was this woman [laughs] in the, in The Wall Street Journal, uh, she was, like, a substitute teacher, and she's like, she's like says her income. She's like, "I make, like, $50,000 a year, and I just go for walks and I eat healthy." And she was number one on, on the list-
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... and, like, Bryan Johnson was, like, number six. And it, and it was pretty funny that all these guys are dedicating their lives-
- SPShaan Puri
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and all their resources-
- SPShaan Puri
Actually, it's just bingo night that you need with the community. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Yeah, and I think it actually causes, like- You- emotional regulation and not being stressed or anxious is probably more important than, like, obsessing about some other stuff, so...
- SPShaan Puri
Exactly.
- 36:58 – 42:03
Idea 4: New religion
- SPShaan Puri
All right, let's do the most exciting idea you have on this list. New religion. Talk to me, I'm ready. Preach.
- SPSpeaker
Sort of, I, I... Religion is, I think it's a bad word. It's like something to belong to that helps you guide morality and ethics, that can be a ritual or tradition that, um, we all can, like, bond over and feel aligned on. My, my, my hypothesis is that there's no money to make in religion, so no one joins, no talent, no good leader joins the church, and therefore it hasn't been innovating at all. And therefore... So the economics aren't there for a priest, and so therefore there's no innovation, and there's a desperate need for innovation. And then, so, and then second, like, no one wants to be Jesus, and someone has to be Jesus. That's why I think why we are where we are at right now. So if someone wants to be Jesus, I think there's a real opportunity to, um-
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSam Parr
Ha- have you guys ever gone to a Shabbat?
- SPShaan Puri
No.
- SPSam Parr
Uh-
- SPShaan Puri
But something like that.
- SPSam Parr
Dude-
- SPSpeaker
Oh, Shabbat is great
- SPSam Parr
... it's the shit.
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSam Parr
It's the best.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPSam Parr
Shabbat is the shit. I love it. It's like-
- SPSpeaker
We're both-
- SPSam Parr
... basically a, a Friday meal where you don't use cell phones and you tell everyone how much you love each other.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, and like Saturday I'm not working, like forced.
- SPSam Parr
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
And I just think that's the obvious, we want that.
- SPShaan Puri
Why are you saying there's no money in that? I've n- these mega churches have-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Yeah
- SPShaan Puri
... $100 million run rates.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPShaan Puri
The priests are driving private, flying private jets. Like, th- th- th- these gu- have you seen Joel Osteen? That smile, that's a billion-dollar smile right there.
- SPSpeaker
So I think maybe it's like actually the best business of all businesses, it just-
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Um-
- SPSam Parr
Yeah, I, I, I'm pretty sure the, the Catholic Church is the largest landowner in, in the whole world.
- SPShaan Puri
Not, not to reference Peter Thiel again, but he talks about for monopolies, he's like, "All the companies that talk about how, how much of a monopoly they have, how dominant they ha- they are, they're usually the most vulnerable. And the ones that are super dominant always try to downplay how dominant they are-"
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- 42:03 – 45:28
Why do this again?
- SPShaan Puri
Well, let's do a little introspection on why do David, because you've, on one hand, one way of looking at this is you've already beat this level of the video game. You created a protein bar, you won $600 million, you get the nice house in Miami, and it's all done, right? And of course you could go back and do it again, but maybe, like, you should do a new thing. That would be one argument. We, we, we, me and Sam have talked about this before. There's two, you know, type one, type two entrepreneurs. Type ones are always looking for the variety, the next new thing. Even though they're most equipped to actually go do the thing that they know really well, they don't wanna do it. And then there's other people we call speed runners, there's type two, which, which is now that they feel like they have a, a, a new point of view, a new mastery of the game, they're really excited to go do it. This is just in their blood, it's in their DNA. They just wanna go back to the same space. I don't know if it's as simple as that, but why did you decide to do it again?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. So it was in process. So I had to not repeat, so that was a constraint, but then I, I wanted to actually prove to myself that I wasn't just a CPG entrepreneur, that I could go Do this in other sort of industries. Um, so I actually, I went to go explore different industries and try to like... And I, I kinda like started and stopped in a lot of times.
- SPShaan Puri
What sorts of stuff? Give us a sense of-
- SPSpeaker
Like, synthetic biology I think is, like, fascinating. That's a perfect example. I was like, "This is, sounds like science fiction." Biotech is incredible. Like, if we could actually control biology, like, this would be an amazing thing. So I started studying it. And, you know, this is where I think, like, Elon's like a, not a good influence. Like, I was like, "Oh, he c- like, I can like learn anything." And then very quickly it was like, "I can't fucking learn this stuff." Like, biology's-
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... these people like spend their whole careers learning this. And I was like, "I'm not that smart. I can't learn new things, and I'm never gonna start a business where I have to pick up the phone to fix a problem." Like, if I can't, don't have the competency to fix the problem or understand it, I'm n- that's like a position I'll never wanna be in. That was a bit of, like, self-awareness, call it a humbling moment. And then I, I spent some time, then I came back, and then when my non-compete came up, I was like, "Oh my God, I see it." Like I, I, I, I couldn't help but see s- like a vision of something to do. And so I was like, "You know what? I'm okay, I'm okay with just being called a type 2, um, and I'm okay if once I die it just says like, 'Knows protein bar.'" You know? Like, if that's what I'm known for-
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... on my gravestone, that, that's okay. Like-
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... uh, and it, and it goes back to, like, self-awareness, like, you gotta do what you're good at. And, like, uh, one thing I've learned is, like, as I gotten older, I'm 38 now, like I, I do find it harder to learn new things, like I'm, I'm a later adopter. Why do it again? It's like I see a huge opportunity to bring, to grow the market, to delight customers, and it's fun.
- SPSam Parr
Are you r- calling the shots? Are you, uh, an, the CEO, and are you, uh, like a very hands-on CEO? Or are you doing it-
- SPShaan Puri
Are you chairman?
- SPSpeaker
No, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm the CEO, and I'm in the office every day. I'm in manufacturing right now. I only have one way.
- SPSam Parr
When you, uh, you have a four-month-old kid, it sounds like you're gonna, you, you're gonna get married soon. Um, you know, a lot of people in your position who I imagine you have roughly in the ballpark of nine figures liquid, that's enough money for many generations. You have a new kid where you could be at home with them. Why do you even give a shit about starting this new thing?
- 45:28 – 53:03
How to survive the first year after exiting
- SPSpeaker
I think the idle mind's the devil's playground.
- SPSam Parr
But you've had an idle mind, no, for the past few years?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. But I still made myself busy. But, but it was idle. It, it was idle relative to, to now, yes. Um, I, I just think it's dangerous, like I need to produce, I need to make stuff, I need stress, I need to be challenged, I need risk. I'm a way better man with responsibility. And then second, I d- I wanna make sure my son sees daddy working, working hard. I need to be a role model for him. I need to be in an office. I need to be sacrificing. And then, like, at a, at a fundamental level, like, as a human, I'm just, I'm not happy if I don't, I'm not like risk on, I don't have responsibility. So that was-
- SPSam Parr
Does that mean you were, you were kinda bummed out or, like, for, for the past few years?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, I just was unfulfilled. Like, I, I was just like... And, like, being an investor sucks. I, like-
- SPSam Parr
Yeah. [laughs] It's, it's pretty boring, isn't it? [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Oh, like the only good thing about it is you're, you can, like, you have, um, more freedom of time and responsibility. Like, that's the great thing about it, and I just don't actually like that.
- SPShaan Puri
Have you ever seen this Reddit post by the, this guy Jake, who started Movement Watches?
- SPSpeaker
No.
- SPShaan Puri
They were one of the early D2C brands that made a watch brand that got really big off of Instagram, and he wrote this thing on Reddit which I think you would never expect this guy to be here, right? They, they sold it for I think $100 million. You would never expect him to just be lurking random, like, beginner threads about entrepreneurship, and he wrote a thread that says, "I sold my company for millions and I'm lost more than ever, 31 years old." He te- he says it pretty openly, "I sold my company Movement for a lot of money. I thought all my problems would be solved. It made my life really cushy and comfortable. I optimized for being as stress-free as possible. I play video games when I want, I wake up when I want, I have really no reason to get out of bed if I don't want to. I always thought this was the dream and I'd be happy forever, until I wasn't. And I realize I'm in this incredible unique situation. I want to share some things." And then at the... I'll just fast-forward. There's a bunch of stuff. He talks about, "I've been separated from the company for two years. I'm 31, single. I never have to work again. I'm, I'm also lonelier a- than ever and dep- deeply depressed. I really believe that we need purpose in our lives to be happy. For some, that's raising a family. Others, it's their career," blah, blah, blah. And then he goes to the bottom and he just says, "We can plan and analyze forever, but here's the lessons, uh, but there are lessons that are unknown until you start moving forward. You cannot live without struggle and pain. We either choose our struggle and pain, or it will find us through depression and loneliness." I thought that was really powerful-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- SPShaan Puri
... uh, what he wrote.
- SPSpeaker
And you, and my point, my fe- feedback to him would be like, "You have to work." He said you don't have to work, but you have to.
- SPShaan Puri
Just not for money. It wasn't for money that you had to work-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- SPShaan Puri
... it was for yourself. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah. Just like you need to produce.
- SPSam Parr
I wanna bring up this article that, uh, you, that got written about you. Um, it was on Medium. You know what I'm talking about?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. It was like a super sensationalized-
- SPSam Parr
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Terribly inaccurate.
- SPSam Parr
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And she was just projecting. [laughs]
- SPSam Parr
I thought that was gonna be the case. I told Shaan I was gonna bring it up, and he goes, "He's, this is what he's probably gonna say." It, uh, Shaan nailed the prediction. But for anyone who's talking about, who's thinking about, uh... Or, or the, the article that I'm describing, it's basically the head- it's beautiful photos, but it's kinda like they kinda paint this article as the lost young rich guy who doesn't know what the hell he's doing in life and is unhappy. And, like, the photos are, like, you, like, looking off to the distance. But there was one pretty amazing [laughs] the, the opening-
- SPShaan Puri
Yo, just pro tip for founders. Any time somebody wants to write an article about you and they want you to just-
- SPSpeaker
Oh, god
- SPShaan Puri
... take photos looking longingly out the window, they're about to fuck you.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPShaan Puri
That's what they're trying to do.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- 53:03 – 56:18
How big is David going to get?
- SPShaan Puri
All right, I wanna ask you two questions.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- SPShaan Puri
First one's real simple: How big can this be, David? As I'm 75% of the way through this bar right now.
- SPSpeaker
I would s- How big? So the market's pr- like, it's like a, it's like a, say, $8 billion TAM, the protein subcategory. I, for me, the big e- exciting opportunity is to convert non-protein bar people and bring them into the category. So, so, like, just interviewing people, they'll, they'll often say, "I'm not a protein bar consumer." So I want, if we can ch- achieve the mission of bringing, converting as many non-protein bar people into protein bar people, that would be a huge... I see a clear path to a billion in sales, top line.
- SPSam Parr
Is that your threshold for success?
- SPSpeaker
That's a good question. Enterprise value, yeah. I would say, yeah, I would want a billion in r- top line.
- SPSam Parr
What's that worth?
- SPSpeaker
Depending on growth and EBITDA, you put a three or a five on it.
- SPShaan Puri
I love how you don't shy away. We have a lot of people that come on this podcast that they want to win, and they want to win big, and they want money, and they want, they want things, right? We all want things. And whenever Sam will ask a question like that, of like, "Does that, uh, would that be, would it, would anything less than that be, like, not a success for you?" Or something like that, they'll, like, always go back to, like, what they think they're supposed to say.
- SPSam Parr
Oh.
- SPShaan Puri
"No, no, no. This doesn't define me. Yeah, I'm, as long as I wake up every day and my, my wife kisses me on the cheek, I'm good." And, um, I love that you don't give a fuck. And y- I see that in a bunch of your quotes. [laughs] We have this quotes section. I just want you to react to some of these. [laughs] My favorite, by the way, "Don't trust a guy who celebrates his birthday." [laughs] That's great.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, I know. It's kind of brutal, but I'm not against it, but it's kinda true.
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPShaan Puri
You talked about how most people don't really experience any adversity, and you said, uh, quote, "Most people are soft as baby shit." Ex- expand on that.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, I just think it's character shit. I think it's, like, anyone of really high character usually has some trauma in it, and trauma's relative. And if you haven't gone through trauma, it's fine, but just, if you're just self-aware of it, like, that's a first step.
- SPShaan Puri
You do things now, even though your life could be very comfortable. You got a bunch of money. You could, you could make your life as comfortable as you want it. Do you do things now that kinda voluntarily make your life less comfortable than you otherwise could?
- SPSpeaker
Um, without sounding like a rich asshole, like...
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
No, I mean, I'm pretty-
- SPSam Parr
I ki- I, I like the rich asshole, asshole version of you.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPShaan Puri
Let's go all in.
- SPSpeaker
Feel free to sound like that. [laughs]
- SPShaan Puri
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I don't know if I, it's like
- SPShaan Puri
He's like, "I have one butler, not three now."
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, I know. It's like-
- SPShaan Puri
So it's tough out there
- SPSpeaker
... it's like, oh, I don't have any nightmares. Like, that's such a-
- 56:18 – 58:28
Remote v in-office
- SPSam Parr
Is your, um, is your new company in, um, in person or remote?
- SPSpeaker
What do you think?
- SPSam Parr
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- SPSam Parr
I made the biggest mis- dude.
- SPShaan Puri
He's like, "Have you been listening?"
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Oh my God. [laughs]
- SPSam Parr
I was hoping there was, like, a... I was hoping there was, like, a 3% chance. My company, we, we, we started it, like, kinda, like, right after COVID. I've made such a mistake, dude. We did remote, and it's, like, an irreversible thing.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, if you want a high-performing company, if you wanna win, it's, you obviously have to do it. And the thing is, like, my work's fun, so being in the office for me is fun.
- SPSam Parr
Yeah. Well, that's why I'm doing it. I don't care about the winning. It just-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- SPSam Parr
... is fun.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPSam Parr
It's fun to be around your f- like, they become your friends.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, and that's the thing is, like, my social bucket is fulfilled through my work colleagues. Like, so I don't really socialize outside of my work.
- SPSam Parr
Yeah, I mean, it's... I'm, I was in the same boat. You just, you give someone a job, you h- you're hired. Wanna be friends?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPShaan Puri
Yeah, my paid friends are the best friends I, I found. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- SPShaan Puri
My W-2 friends are awesome.
- SPSam Parr
Yeah. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Yeah. That's right. Yeah.
- SPSam Parr
It's funny.
- SPShaan Puri
Well, dude, Peter, I know we're a little over time, so we'll, we'll, we'll let you go, but, uh, you're awesome. I really appreciate you coming on. I think your story's dope. I think you're very truthful and self-aware, and that's a pretty deadly combo. It's something, you know, I think two virtues to strive for. And I think you have a hardcore approach to this at a time where it is unpopular to be hardcore. Uh, you almost have to apologize for, like, caring and trying and working and prioritizing stuff. I think there's a bunch of people who will listen to this that want that also and f- and will feel more empowered to do it. In the same way that you were saying, like, Elon lets you think, "Wait, shit, can I do anything?" Right? Like, it gives you permission to, like, you know, to be a c- to be the way you wanna be, and I think, uh, you've done that today on this pod, so I appreciate you coming on.
- SPSpeaker
Thank you, guys. [outro music]
Episode duration: 58:29
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Transcript of episode GDt6IQMXWxc
