Moiz Ali On Selling His Natural Deodorant To P&G For $100M, Investing In Manscaped, & Holding Cash

Shaan Puri 0:00 [upbeat music] All right, so Moiz is here. And so I guess if people don't know, so you started, um, I guess you started a couple businesses. People mostly know you from Native. So you

Shaan Puri 0:15 created Native-

Moiz Ali 0:15 That's right

Shaan Puri 0:15 ... which is the popular deodorant brand. You sold it to Procter & Gamble for a reported $100 million, which I think is, uh, one of the better D2C exits, 'cause you only raised, like, $4 million I wanna say. T- less than that even?

Moiz Ali 0:29 We raised $500,000 actually.

Shaan Puri 0:32 Oh my God. Okay, so you raised $500,000. And, uh, by the way, I don't know if you know this, I remember I was in a, a mastermind group with your brother, and I was like... And he was, like, in between... He had d- he already sold his company, so he's kind of, uh, floating in between things. It's like, why do you show, show up to the mastermind if you don't really have a business that you're working on? So I think he was kinda like fishing, and he was like, "You know, my brother's got this interesting business" and I was like-

Moiz Ali 0:53 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 0:53 ... I was like, "Oh, really?" You know, I didn't even know h- I didn't know him very well at the time. I was like, "I didn't even know you had a brother." He's like... And I was ready for this, like, big tech idea, and he's like, "Yeah, he's, like, selling, like, this n- uh, natural deodorant." Like, and he made it sound like you're, like, sitting at home packing the deodorant, like, containers by hand. And he's like, he kind of was underplaying. He's like, "It's really cool. You know, it- it's paraben-free." I didn't know what a paraben was. And he's like, "It's aluminum-free" or whatever. And he's like, "Yeah, it's doing pretty well." And then he started to say the numbers, and I was like, "Whoa, um, that's actually, like, really good." And I was like, "So how much has he raised?" He's like, "I don't know if he's..." He's like, "He's raised, like, nothing." And so that's when you got on my radar. The... And you f- I feel like you operated very quietly. You're kinda like me, uh, where when you're doing something that's working, you shut the hell up. And when-

Moiz Ali 1:38 That's right

Shaan Puri 1:38 ... when you're not, when you're just thinking about ideas, you're, like, super loud to bounce them around off people. Is that your strategy?

Moiz Ali 1:43 That's exactly right. In fact, uh, we'd done no PR for Native until, uh, after we sold the business.

Shaan Puri 1:50 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 1:50 I remember we had all these news publications reaching out to us, and I took one interview with, I think it was, like, Retail Dive or somebody, and they were like, "We wanna talk about this deodorant company," 'cause we hadn't heard of it. And you know, they're like, "Who are you guys? What are you doing?" Um, and we sort of, uh, talked about the business, and they wrote an article. And after that I was like, "I'm never talking about the business again." Uh, when we went to go fundraise, like, we talked to a few people. We talked to, um, Simon Equity Partners, which is basically, uh, the family office of, like, you know, the Simon Property Group, which owns a bunch of malls across the United States. And, uh, we opened up our books to them and we're like, "Here's our business." And they're like, "Our job is to find businesses like you, and you know, you're down the street from us. You're based in San Francisco. Your headquarters is three blocks away from ours. We've never heard of this business,"

Shaan Puri 2:35 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 2:35 "... and we should have heard of it by now. How come?" And we're like, "You know, we're not talking about our business." Like, no one walked around with Native T-shirts until after we made an e- until after we'd made an exit.

Shaan Puri 2:44 Yeah.

Moiz Ali 2:44 And then I was like, okay, now the brand can exist and be- we can be loud in public about it.

Shaan Puri 2:49 Is that... What is that? Is that paranoia? Is it just focus? Is it strategy? What, what... Why, why do it that way?

Moiz Ali 2:55 Yeah. Yeah, I think it's two things. Um, I think one is, uh, fear, which is, like, um, fear of embarrassment. "Okay, my business failed, and I was super public about it, and now it crashed, and everybody's gonna think of me as a failure." So I was like, "We're not gonna fail publicly. If we fail, it'll be really quietly." Um, and then two was, like, um-

Shaan Puri 3:15 Right. We fail the, we fail the Indian way s-

Moiz Ali 3:17 Exactly. Yeah

Shaan Puri 3:17 ... silently in personal shame. [laughs]

Moiz Ali 3:19 Yeah, that's right. Uh, that's right. No one will be able to Google me and be like, "Okay, Moiz Ali is a failure."

Shaan Puri 3:24 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 3:24 Um, and then the other one was things were working so well, we're like, okay, we don't know how this is working so well or why this is working so well, but we better not go around thumping our chest saying this is working really well because, one, I believe it'll jinx us, and I believe in jinx, and two, other people will just start copying us and doing exactly what we're doing. And like, you know, I sold our, I sold Native in November 2017. We had a competitor sell their business in December 2017, a month, uh, a month after, uh, us. And you know, the, i- in 2018, 2019, 60 competitors in the natural deodorant space popped up. Uh, and every brand that didn't have a natural deodorant was like, "We should create a natural deodorant." Um, and then 60 brands were like, "Hey, we wanna create a natural deodorant as our flagship or our hero product." And so by, like, not thumping our chest and not talking about our business, we were able to keep the category a little bit quieter before we came out and said, "Hey, this is a massive category and it's really working."

Shaan Puri 4:20 Right, and I, I, I, I appreciate that about you guys. I've actually learned a little bit in that regard, in that I don't, I don't talk about my e-commerce business on here ever.

Moiz Ali 4:29 Sure.

Shaan Puri 4:29 Um, or I'll reference it, but I'll never say the name or the brand or whatever.

Moiz Ali 4:32 Yeah, someone texts me every day.

Shaan Puri 4:33 For some of those same reasons also.

Moiz Ali 4:35 Someone texts me every day-

Shaan Puri 4:36 Yeah, I also have a business partner-

Moiz Ali 4:37 ... like, "What's up, dude?"

Shaan Puri 4:38 Yeah, I have a business partner, and they don't want me to talk about it, so I'm also like, "Okay, cool. Yeah, you know, I'll honor that wish." But I, I kind of came up with this term, because you and your brother are the same in that normally you guys are all... Uh, the info flows one way. And, and this podcast is, like, the rare exception where I get to ask you questions. Normally, whenever I've seen your brother or you in any social setting, it's a technique I call Ali boarding.

Moiz Ali 5:01 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 5:01 And it's like waterboarding, but just with questions, where you just dump th- someone's head into a vat of your non-stop flow of questions, and by the end they're like, "Wait, so what's your name and what do you do?" And you're like, by then you're like, "Ha, I have your P&L-

Moiz Ali 5:16 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 5:16 ... and, like, I have your whole family's backstory." And it's not, like, in an evil way. It's, like, genuine curiosity, I think-

Moiz Ali 5:22 Sure. Yeah

Shaan Puri 5:23 ... is what I've come to see. But it's also very effective. Um, A, is that true? Do you, do you believe that? Do you... Am I, am I characterizing it right? And then, B, is that, like, conscious or un- uh, did you ever, like, develop that as a skill, or was that a choice you made, or it's just natural?

Moiz Ali 5:38 Yeah. I think, um, A is it's partially right. It's more true with Solomon, with my brother, than it is with me. And he does that to me as well, where, like, I'll tell him about, you know, a meeting I had or a deal that I'm looking at, and he'll be, he'll ask me ridiculous questions. He'll be like, "What, uh, what did the lunch, what did the founder have for lunch on Saturday three months ago?"

Shaan Puri 5:58 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 5:58 And I'm like, "I didn't get into that level of detail. You gotta stop asking those types of questions." Uh, but I do think we have genuine curiosity of, like, what are, what's making other businesses work and what isn't. I remember we went to the Super Bowl, um, you know, four years ago or something like that in Atlanta, and we were at the Super Bowl party, like, the night before the game, and there were these two old, dainty uncles that were there as well. And, uh, they were there because they had... They owned Marriott Hotels, and Marriott had invited them to the game in, like, their private suite. And, you know, they were probably in their 50s, and we asked them so many que- I was like, "You know, how much do you have to pay Marriott?" And they also own, like, Hilton Hotels. I was like, "How much do you have to pay Hilton per year, Marriott per year? Do, do you have debt on the building? You do? What's your debt?" Like, you know. "How often do you have to renovate? How much do those renovations cost? Uh, how much..." Like, you know. "What does your average occupancy look like?" And they answered all these questions, and they were, like, uh, didn't seem excited to answer them, but they didn't seem cautious. Like, they didn't seem like they were hesitant either. And at the end of all of these questions, where we literally did have their P&L, you know, we're like, "Okay, well," you know. They didn't ask a single question. They were just like, "Okay, well, uh, great meeting you guys."

Shaan Puri 7:04 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 7:04 And we're like, "All right, I now understand the hotel business from two operators that have eight businesses around the Dallas-Fort Worth area," and they didn't wanna know anything about us. Like, why were we at the Super Bowl party? How did we get here? How did we make our money? They didn't ask a single question. So I think there is a genuine cur- curiosity that we have that sometimes is lost on other people.

Shaan Puri 7:24 Tha- that's, that's exactly how it goes.

Moiz Ali 7:26 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 7:26 I've seen it. And then also you had, like, a brunch. Uh, y- I saw you tweet out like, "Oh, I've been inviting some DTC friends over." Like, "Who wants to have a brunch of DTC people?" And I was like, "Oh, what a nice guy. Just being social or whatever." I had a friend who went to your brunch, and he's like, "Yeah, the brunch is basically Moiz sits at the head of the table," and he's like, "All right, what's your CAC? What's your ROI?" [laughs]

Moiz Ali 7:43 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 7:43 And you're, like, asking a bunch of questions. And I was like, "That sounds about right." And I learned this from your brother. I was like... 'Cause I watched him one time, and I was like, if... W- first, when I talk to your brother now, I'm like, it's like a duel. Like, he doesn't know this-

Moiz Ali 7:54 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 7:54 ... but in my head I'm like, "I'm gonna ask whatever n number of questions you ask, n plus one will be asked back to you."

Moiz Ali 8:00 I love it. Yeah.

Shaan Puri 8:00 Um, like, you know, because I will not be out-questioned 'cause I know the technique.

Moiz Ali 8:04 Good.

Shaan Puri 8:04 But I started, I started watching him when he talked to other people, and I was like, "How does he get them to divulge so much information?" And again, not in a bad way, but just, like, what gets people in the flow of talking? I'm like, okay, so first he's genuinely curious. Like, he's super engaged.

Moiz Ali 8:17 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 8:17 He's not looking around. He's not looking at his phone. He's actually looking at them in the eye and he's asking them a bunch of questions. I've noticed he does two things. When they're saying something he, uh, likes or is, like, a smart thing, he gives them tons of, like, you know, nodding, "Yep, that makes total sense. Got it. Love it." And then when they say something really stupid or weird or something that makes no sense, I notice that when somebody does that to me, I'm like, but that makes... I, like, kind of start judging them a little bit, and they can tell that I'm judging them, and that makes them clam up. Whereas he'll just go, he'll just laugh and be like, [laughs] "Amazing." And then he, he says the word amazing and then moves on, and amazing really means, like, "Wow, it's amazing you're so stupid," or, "It's amazing you think that"-

Moiz Ali 8:54 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 8:54 ... or, "It's amazing that you don't even know that." But, like, he never makes them feel bad. He'll just be like, [laughs] like, "Amazing," and then he'll just go onto the next question. [laughs] And I realized that that is how he keeps the constant flow going. So I'm studying this Ali boarding technique, and I think I'm gonna be pretty good at it. I'm gonna be, like, you know, a franchisee of your, of your question franchise.

Moiz Ali 9:12 I love that. Yeah. First, we have to charge you per question then. Uh, but really-

Shaan Puri 9:16 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 9:16 ... he's like, um, I think the other thing that he does really good, or do really well, is that he's like, "How do you think about something?" He never asks, like, you know, uh, "What's your CAC?" He'll be like, "How do you think about growth when it comes to social ads?" And, like, you know, "Can you spend more there?" And the question is really open-ended, but he's, like, aiming for some... He, it really wants a response. And people, uh, like-

Shaan Puri 9:35 Right

Moiz Ali 9:35 ... you know, subconsciously get to it. And I've started asking, "How do you think about that?" all the time now because it really gets people to open up and tell me about how they're, how, how they view their business and not just, like, a standard number. Um, and I really like that question, and I've also franchised that from him.

Shaan Puri 9:51 When I started my business, the e-com one, he s- I told him about it, and he had, like, you know, some good questions and then, like, you know, the way y'all's brains work, it's just, like, you know, it, nonstop. So I think at, like, 2:00 in the morning that same night, he just sent... Or, like, actually it was, like, five nights later. It was, like, n- completely unrelated. It was, like, five nights later, 2:00 in the morning, I get this email. It's one line from him, and he just says, he says, like, "With our business, I knew we just... It was... This... We just need to do this one thing and it would work." Like, and he explained, like, the competitive, like, the, the positioning, like, what we were gonna do different that was gonna cause it to work. It was gonna be X, but with Y difference. What's that gonna be for your business? And then I was like, that sent me into, like, a three-week spiral of being like, oh, my God, I need to know this answer. That is the important question as I'm starting this business. I really do need to have, like, a very strong point of view on what's gonna be the one thing that we're gonna do that's gonna make this business work better than all the others that are out there, or better than... You know, how can we compete given that we're years late to the party and whatever else? But it was such an important question, and I was like, man. Um, and, like, I ended up bringing him on as kind of, like, an advisor, but I was like, man, this is the value of an advisor, is not the answer but the question. The question that's gonna make you, like, think about your business in a way or, like, reveal a shortcoming in your own thinking that you then get to go fill in that gap for yourself.

Moiz Ali 11:10 Yeah, I think there's a lot of truth to that. The one thing I would say is that, like, um, you know, I've started an e-commerce business, and if someone asked me that about Native, uh, when I launched the business, I'd say, "I've got no idea." We're aluminum-free. There are a bunch of aluminum-free deodorants right now. We're selling online. Is that better? Is that better than selling in store? I've got no clue. And so I think those questions are really helpful, but I think the fear that some of those questions can cause in terms of people being like, "I need to figure out this answer before I can do X or Y, before I can launch my product, before I can start spending marketing dollars," like, you can figure out that answer, uh, well after your business is launched. And I think for Native-

Shaan Puri 11:47 Right

Moiz Ali 11:47 ... that really changed. Like, you know, we were an aluminum-free

Moiz Ali 11:50 deodorant selling it on the internet, and I was like, "That's gonna be our competitive advantage." And then it became a little bit of, like, scents, uh, you know, like fragrances. We have a strategy of launching new fragrances frequently, and those fragrances are different, and people are gonna s- uh, pantry load and buy a bunch of deodorants. So it's not just buying one until you run out, but I've got seven because this is gonna be your fragrance rather than your perfum- perfume or cologne. Uh, and then it was, like, different marketing ideas and bundling products and launching new categories. Like, there are very few brands that can expand from deodorant to body wash to, uh, toothpaste. Like, you know, Old Spice could never make a toothpaste. We're like, "We're gonna create a brand that can do all of those, and it stands for better-for-you ingredients rather than one single thing." And I th- I think that question-

Shaan Puri 12:32 Yeah

Moiz Ali 12:32 ... the answer to that question evolved and changed, and I think that question is great, and people should think about that in the back of their minds, but it shouldn't prevent them from actually taking the first step to launching their business.

Shaan Puri 12:42 Totally. Totally agree. Also about the, like, pro- progressive, like, iteration of that question, of the, of the answer, but also, um, I also learned what a good answer to that is. A good answer is not, "We're doing this magical thing that nobody's doing," because usually that just doesn't exist. Like realistically-

Moiz Ali 12:59 Yeah

Shaan Puri 12:59 ... like, that's probably a signal that it's a bad idea, not that it's a great idea. Um, and also not that, like, "We are gonna jump through these 14 really hard to jump through hoops. Like, I'm gonna crack... I'm gonna be viral all the time." It's like, oh, God.

Moiz Ali 13:12 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 13:12 Like that seems like a bad strategy to back. Instead it was like, "Actually there's a category that people want, and what we're gonna do is, like, people don't, don't like this one thing about the main competitor. We're gonna do that one thing. Like, it's just common sense, but we're gonna do that one thing differently. And, like, I'm just gonna obsess over Facebook ads in a way that they're not. Like, or just in a way that will work. Like, Facebook ads are just working for businesses like these, so I'm gonna do Facebook ads." It's like almost the stupider the answer, the better, but, like, the clearer the answer, the better too. Like, of do you even know what you're betting on? That's like, what do you think is gonna work here? And, like, can you back that up as to why you think that's gonna work? But you don't want it to be a genius, magical, like, ma- magical s- silver bullet solution that, like, nobody has ever thought of and nobody has ever pulled off, 'cause that's usually just a sign of, like, weakness actually in the plan.

Moiz Ali 14:00 Especially if you talk about, like, partnerships or collaborations where people are like, "I'm betting my future on the ability to get other people to do X, Y, and Z." Like, that's never gonna work. I couldn't agree more. It could be-

Shaan Puri 14:10 Right

Moiz Ali 14:10 ... "We're, look, we're gonna create a digital first brand that looks better. Uh, we're gonna have a better user interface, and we're gonna have more, uh, better colors, and it's gonna look better on your countertop, like Native deodorant or your bathroom, you know, shelf like, like Native deodorant," and that was it. Like, that was the, that-

Shaan Puri 14:24 Right

Moiz Ali 14:24 ... that's an entire plan, and that's perfectly fine.

Shaan Puri 14:28 I-

Moiz Ali 14:28 And the one thing I realized-

Shaan Puri 14:28 I have a great idea here.

Moiz Ali 14:30 Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead.

Shaan Puri 14:32 Okay. So, so the idea is, um, a, a example of doing that, so you know the, the... So most people who listen to this are probably not, not, not Brown or Desi, so they don't, don't know this brand. But, like, if you've ever been to, like, an Indian grocer, which there's, you know, all around the country there's a bunch of these.

Moiz Ali 14:47 Sure.

Shaan Puri 14:47 Like, you know, you go buy, go buy s- lo- you know, the sort of, like, the ethnic foods. There's this brand called Haldiram, which is basically they make, like, just, like, this, like, super addictive salty little snack. Um, it's, like, fried. It's like our equivalent of chips. It's, like-

Moiz Ali 15:00 Sure

Shaan Puri 15:00 ... fried, salty, kinda spicy, and you just buy this thing. It's like an, it's like a trail mix basically that's, that's salty. And, um, and so it's been around forever. They do, like, 500 million a year in sales. They're like a, like a juggernaut-

Moiz Ali 15:12 Wow

Shaan Puri 15:12 ... of a, of a, of a consumer packaged good brand. They're, like, pr- super profitable, don't do any, like, advertising, and, like, they're just, like, they're, they're massive. And so, like, I think one idea is, like, Haldiram, but with, like, packaging that's just different. Like- [laughs]

Moiz Ali 15:26 Of course

Shaan Puri 15:26 ... different packaging, slightly better for you. Like, maybe it's baked and not fried. And, like, that's the whole business plan. Like, I don't need to know more to start than just that, and I think that that's a plan somebody could take today and go start. Like, okay, so then what are you gonna do for this? Like, I don't know, or the same as everybody else. Like, th- you can do I don't know or the same as everybody else for all other questions, as long as you just have that one thing, which is like these guys do, like, 500 million in sales, and they sell mostly through these, like, I- Indian grocers. I'm gonna do that but with better packaging 'cause their packaging looks like my mom's packaging. I'm just gonna make it look like my packaging, like, you know, the stuff I'm used to buying.

Moiz Ali 16:01 Yeah, and I can cater to Caucasians as a result of that. Like, you know-

Shaan Puri 16:05 Yeah

Moiz Ali 16:05 ... it's pa- uh, packaging that the entire world is gonna understand. It's not available only at ethnic grocers.

Shaan Puri 16:10 Right.

Moiz Ali 16:10 There it is. That's... Our business model-

Shaan Puri 16:11 Or, like-

Moiz Ali 16:12 ... is copying their product in a better bag.

Shaan Puri 16:14 Y- and where, like, two-thirds of Indians have diabetes, and so I'm just gonna make mine, like, better for people with diabetes, and I'm just gonna be like-

Moiz Ali 16:19 Yeah, that's right

Shaan Puri 16:19 ... "It's baked, not fried, and, like, it's better for you-

Moiz Ali 16:21 Yeah

Shaan Puri 16:21 ... because of that." [laughs]

Moiz Ali 16:23 Yeah. You know the guys who started Nature- NatureBox was this, uh, company based in San Francisco that so- uh, like, sold you, uh, snacks, like trail mix basically, and shipped it either to your home or your office. Their original business model was we're gonna go buy this at Whole Foods, put it in different sized packaging, and just ship it to your house. Like, you know, what's the difference between this and Whole Foods trail mix? Literally not bi- no packaging difference, no, uh, ingredient difference. They'd literally go and buy it and, you know, ship it to your house, and that was it. And Instacart, like, started, and they're like, "What are we gonna do? You have a grocery list. You just email it to us, and we're gonna go shopping for it." Like, th- really simple ideas-

Shaan Puri 17:00 Right

Moiz Ali 17:00 ... that were not, like, you know, groundbreaking by any stretch of the imagination, that built huge businesses.

Shaan Puri 17:06 And you invested in Manscaped pretty early on, I think, right?

Moiz Ali 17:10 Yeah, yeah. I invested in Manscaped probably three or four years ago now.

Shaan Puri 17:14 And so, um, you invest in Manscaped, and it's been one of your, I think you tweeted out it's one of your best performing investments. Um, what did they do? Like, what's their version of this? Like, the stupid simple plan that, like, just makes sense, and it doesn't have to be rocket science, but, like, a simple plan executed well. What was their version of that?

Moiz Ali 17:33 Yeah. I think a, uh, two things. I think one was they're like, "Look, we've created a product specifically for your balls, even though the razor that works on your face works on your... Like, you know, if you've got an electric trimmer for your face-

Shaan Puri 17:44 Right

Moiz Ali 17:45 ... works on your balls as well. It's not like it's different hair. It, possibly more coarse-

Shaan Puri 17:49 Right

Moiz Ali 17:49 ... but, like, that trimmer's gonna work there. And so they're like, "Look, we've created an electric trimmer specifically for your balls." A- and, like, you know, th- that might appeal to people who don't have electric trimmers for their face. Like, I imagine you do 'cause it's hard to keep these beards, uh, [laughs] trimmed well. But look, you know, if you've got it for your face, you can probably use the same thing for your balls if you're comfortable with that. They're like, "Hey, you're using a Gillette razor blade because you're clean shaven. We've got something specific for your balls," so I think that was really smart. They're like, "Hey, use this product for a category that you probably aren't using it for." Uh, and then two was like branding and name. They're like, you know, they got the name right, they got the trademark right. I think those were probably really hard for them to get, although I'm not, like, involved enough to know that. Um, and, and like, you know, they've done a good job with, like, unique and differentiated branding. Like, they had, um, they had a barge sail up and down, um, uh, South Beach in Miami, and they had a big billboard on it, and it said, "Got bush? Uh, use Manscaped." Uh, like they've done really unique things in order to get their name out there in a way that I think a lot of other direct-to-consumer businesses have failed, where we're like, you know, Native would run billboards and we're like, "Here's an aluminum-free deodorant. Please come buy it." It really didn't get your attention. These guys have done a good job of that. Um, and like, you know, today they posted on, uh, they, they have a billboard in New York City right now. Instead of the heart emoji, it's an upside down heart emoji, so it looks like a, you know-

Shaan Puri 19:06 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 19:06 ... a testicle sack, basically. Uh, that's really clever branding, and like really clever thinking, and so they're fantastic at that. And I think what's really difficult is that stuff doesn't scale. It's not like if the guy who's... Like, you know, if there's two guys thinking about this kind of stuff and they retire, you're not gonna be able to hire or teach that skill to somebody else. You've gotta find two rock stars that are able to pull that off otherwise, and I think that's gonna be difficult for them, but so far they're just knocking it out of the park.

Shaan Puri 19:33 And you see a ton of brands, a ton of DTC brands. You're probably like, you know, one of... When somebody has a DTC company, you're probably one of the most, I don't know, desired, like, investor, advisor-type dudes. Like, that's your authority, right? Peop-

Moiz Ali 19:46 Sure

Shaan Puri 19:46 ... people wanna do what you've done, and then you've also invested in so many that now you have that portfolio and experience as well. But you also see a bunch of DTC brands do stupid shit. So what are some of the like, kind of like, give me your rant on the things you see DTC brands

Shaan Puri 20:00 doing wrong. What are some of the mi- common mistakes you see that drive you nuts? 'Cause I know that, like, both you and your brother, it's like operational, like, um, you know, uh, uh, operational excellence is what turns you on.

Moiz Ali 20:12 Yeah. Yeah

Shaan Puri 20:13 ... operational, like, you know, uh, ignorance or whatever, [laughs] you know, is what like, you know, drives you nuts. And so give me some of the things you see DTC brands doing wrong or, or stupidly.

Moiz Ali 20:23 Yeah. Over-hiring, and like, um, spending money on dumb things. Like, you know, uh, Native was doing, uh, probably r- we were at a 50 million run rate, or close to a $50 million run rate, um, when we sold the business, uh, and we had eight people at the time. And when I left, you know, it was certainly doing north of 100 million a year, and you know, we probably had 30 or, 30 or so people on, uh, on the team.

Shaan Puri 20:46 Yeah.

Moiz Ali 20:46 Like, there were not that many people for a brand that was doing a lot of revenue. You know, I've walked into offices where people have 20 pe- you know, there'll be 20 people doing $2 million or $4 million in revenue, and I'm like, "What are all of these human beings doing?" Like-

Shaan Puri 21:00 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 21:00 ... i- if there, if you ha- have this many people here, send them to the subway handing out free, like, coupon cards to people who are getting off the subway. This is too many people inside your office to be working at a $4 million a year brand. And so I think that's a, that's a real... Like, you're burning way too much money if you have that many people. Um, you know, Goldman Sachs had this standard of, like, we wanna do one million in revenue per employee that we have. That should be something that's rather easy to do for, um, for direct consumer businesses. I sit on a board of a company called Brumate, which makes like, um, like, you know, drinkware. Uh, think like, you know, um, uh, w- or like hydration kits or, or can coolers for slim cans. The, uh, the, uh, they had one employee, and they were doing $30 million a year. Like, only the founder, Dylan, was at the company, and he was doing $30 million a year. Now, he had some outsourced agencies that he was working with to help him run, to help him run Facebook ads, and to help him do customer service stuff. But like, he had one guy and one guy on the payroll, so he could easily flex upper, up and down with those agencies depending on how the business was going. Uh, so I think, uh, hiring, uh, over-hiring is a real problem. Uh, the other thing I think is like when, another way to spend money poorly is, like, a beautiful office. I remember walking into some direct-to-consumer founders businesses when I was running Native, and I was like, "Wow, this brand is super successful. Look at how nice this office is."

Shaan Puri 22:17 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 22:17 They have a big, they have a logo on their, uh, uh, you know, on the wall right when you walk in. After we sold our business, the first time P&G came to our office, 'cause, you know, we'd been doing it offsite so as not to tell everyone. You know, if, if 13 people from Procter & Gamble walk into our office with eight people, people are gonna be like, "Hey, what's going on here?" So we kept meeting offsite. And finally when they walked in, they... You know, there was a sticker on the door that said Native. Like, it was a, it was a sheet of paper I had written out Native by, uh, with a Sharpie marker and taped it on the door, and that was our office. It was like, you know, done with one penny. Uh, and they were like, "Is this seriously o- your office?" I was like, "Yeah, of course, this is our office." And they're like, "This is the cheapest office I could possibly have imagined." And I was like, "Hey, we care about dollars." And so, you know, I used to be afraid of being frugal, and I'd be like, "Wow, I'm so embarrassed." But now I'm like, it's a real badge of honor. We're running a fiscally cons... Like, you know, we're fiscally conservative when it comes to this business, and we care about dollars, and they're my dollars, I wanna spend them well. Uh, so I think that's the second thing. And I think the third thing is really poor marketing. A lot of founder... Like, if I c- if I ask a founder, "Hey, what is your CAC last month?" And you don't know, that is a terrible sign. If you're doing u- under $40 million a year in revenue and you don't know what your CAC was last month, that's crazy. If you don't know what your CAC was yesterday, that's okay, but, like, you should know what a pro- you probably should know. And if it, like, you know, you, you know, if I ask you at 10:00 AM and you don't know, that's okay. If I ask you at 2:00 PM and you still don't know what your CAC is yesterday, that's a real problem. You're just not involved in the numbers enough. Like, this is how you grow these businesses. It's paid ads or, uh, some sort, some sort of advertising spend, uh, versus a return on that investment. And if you're not familiar with those numbers, you're, you know, being grossly negligent with your business.

Shaan Puri 24:01 And you, you used to do a bunch of, like, kind of like hands-on, unscalable stuff like this. So I think y- you know, in, I don't know, to this day, but, like, you... I showed you what we do as far... Uh, this morning we were talking and I showed you what we do as far as, like, every day in Excel, we hand write here's how much we spent-

Moiz Ali 24:17 Yeah. I love it

Shaan Puri 24:18 ... here's the-

Moiz Ali 24:18 Yeah

Shaan Puri 24:18 ... here's the new customers we got, here's the blended ROAS, here's the CAC, here's how much from email.

Moiz Ali 24:22 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 24:22 And we write that every single day into this, like, spreadsheet. And I'm sure there's, like, more automated ways to do it, but it's not perfect and, like- The practice of doing it by hand makes you think about each of these numbers, 'cause you're like, "Why is this number always 52?" And like, "I need to get this number to not be 52. I'm tired of writing effing 52 on this spreadsheet."

Moiz Ali 24:40 Sure.

Shaan Puri 24:40 Like, I just ne- if this bus- if this number was 42, we would be making so much more money. Okay, that becomes my daily focus. Um, what are some... And I- I've seen you tweet out about like people going and like s- like go- they go to Target, they like watch the aisles themselves to see how people are buying their brand or what they're not, you know, what, what they're doing when they choose the brands. What are some of those unscalable things you've done yourself? Or what are your favorite kinda like... Give me some scrappy stories of like stuff that o- that like you did as an operator or your favorite operators have done.

Moiz Ali 25:08 Sure. Um, you know, I, I, I used to email every single customer at Native, and I was like, "Hey, what, um... You know, you bought our deodorant. Uh, do you like it or do you not like it? If you like it, leave a review, and if you don't like it, email me back and tell me why you don't like this." And, you know, uh, we were doing 300,000... $250,000 in revenue before we hired our first customer service, uh, rep. Like, I was looking at every single one of those emails being like, "What's working here and what isn't?" And that's how we got our product better. We'd listened to consumer feedback. And, you know, we sent out... You know, we were doing 500, 600 orders a day, probably more than that, so we were getting a lot of customer service responses to that type of inquiry. But literally every single customer who ever purchased from us, I would wait like, you know, five days until it was too late for you to return the product, 'cause if you emailed us and you're like, "I hate this thing-"

Shaan Puri 25:56 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 25:56 "... I, I, can I return it?" I wanted to be like, "No, you're pa- we're past the return deadline. You can't do that any longer." So I literally had it scheduled for like... You know, at, at Native you could return product for 30 days. I had it scheduled to go out day 40, 'cause I was like, you know, it's gonna take five days in shipping. And so at day 40 we would im- email you and be like, "Tell us what you like and what you don't like, and, uh, you know, we're gonna go and try and fix these things." We once ha- we, uh, invited a bunch of consumers to a location and then started r- grilling them with questions. Hey, you, you know, they were consumers that had purchased from us a bunch. They lived in San Francisco. And we were like, "Why do you like Native deodorant? Why do you think it works better than other deodorants in the market?" Because, uh, you know, people would be like, "It has probiotics. That's why it works better than, uh, than other deodorants."

Shaan Puri 26:38 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 26:38 And I was like, "What makes you... Like, it does have probiotics, but you have no idea whether that's effective or not." But I was like, "No matter what we do with our formula, we have to keep some level of probiotic in there, because people think probiotic means efficacy whether it does or not." And so those were the types of things that were really interesting and fun and, um, you know, non-scalable. You know, I also... Y- you were talking about, um, Solomon was ta- talking about my business and how I pack boxes. I did pack boxes. I packed boxes until we were probably doing about $80,000 in revenue a month. Like, you know, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday I would go home after working, put on Star Trek, and start packing boxes. And, you know, I was like, okay, I do- I knew how much a box weighed. I knew how much filler paper to put in there. I knew how much a box weighed when, like, you know, f- with deodorant, without deodorant. Um, I knew how to optimize this price. I, I, I knew when we were creating custom boxes, I was like, "I want our box to weigh one ounce and not 1.3 ounces, because at 1.3 ounces it tips us over this level, and at one ounce it doesn't." Uh, I'd go to our contract manufacturer all the time and be like, "Hey, we're seeing these types of fuck-ups. What's going on here?" And so I was, like, intimately familiar with the formula. I knew the steps to how to pour the d- a formula, what, what temperature we poured it out at. And, like, Native was being hand-poured. We were making 20,000 units of Native deodorant a day, and we were hand-pouring each single bar. So there was, uh, there were about 100 people working in Austin, Texas, hand-pouring deodorants. And, um, you know, the best person could hand-pour about 1,000 deodorants a day, and a new person could hand-pour about 75 deodorants a day. And we had to train these people to go from 75 to a couple hundred or 500, and that was really interesting as well. And so there was a... And I, I mean, that's not scalable. Certainly hand-pouring deodorants isn't scalable. But we went from 500 units of deodorant a week to 21,000 a day still hand-pouring. So it was more scalable than I thought it was gonna be.

Shaan Puri 28:24 [laughs] And how much of that is you being a maniac versus, like, good strategy, right? So, like, if somebody in my company was doing that, I'd be like, "Why are you doing this? You need to hire somebody so you can do something higher leverage." But clearly it kinda worked for you to be, like, a maniac and doing all the things yourself. So, like, you know, what's the line? What's the right way to think about that?

Moiz Ali 28:44 Uh, yeah, that's a great question. I think if you're completely divorced from customer feedback, you're, uh, setting yourself up for disaster, unless you've created, you know, a flywheel that you know exactly how it works. Like, you know, when Native was doing $100 million of, uh, of sales a year, I probably wasn't in customer service any longer, but when it was doing 50 million in sales a year, I was in cu- you know, I was probably the number one if not the number two customer service agent. And so, like, you know, you need that feedback to understand what's working and what's not, where are there problems in my business and where they're not. And so, uh, look, I don't know what the right line is, but divorcing yourself from customer feedback at under $25 million a year is bananas to me. You're not gonna know what people love about your product and what they don't love, and you're not gonna know, like, you know, we'd have operational issues that I wasn't aware of. We'd be like, "Shipping is taking an extra three days when it go- when it's going to California. What's going on here? Like, is there a problem in California? Is there a problem with our shipping company?" Sometimes we'd run out of things, and no one would know until a customer emailed us being like, "Hey, I'm waiting four days." And we're like, "We're out of this, we're out of coconut and vanilla? I don't believe it." And then we'd check our inventory and we're like, "How did we run out?" Like, we did such a poor-

Shaan Puri 29:49 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 29:49 Not only did we do a poor job at, uh, inventory forecasting, we weren't even aware, uh, that we ran out when we ran out.

Shaan Puri 29:55 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 29:56 And so, uh, those were a couple of the ridiculous things that would happen. Uh, but, like, you know, because you're intimately involved, you're able to, like, you know, u- u- understand the business at a deeper level. And I think, like, really being engaged at, you know, what does my shipping look like? You know, w- how can I make shipping faster so I can reduce costs? Is the weight of the box or the weight of the filler or the size different? There was a company that I knew that I, I, I was friends with the CEO in San Francisco. His bo- he was shipping through Amazon, and his box, uh, that he was shipping in was about a half inch too large, and it went from being extra, like, it went from being like an, a large box to a custom large box. And so his shipping rate went up like $70 a box because of this half inch he had. And like, you know, w- when people discovered it, or when he discovered it, he's like, "I can't believe we've been shipping like this for so long." You know, if you're intimately involved, you're probably gonna catch those things a little bit earlier.

Shaan Puri 30:47 Right. And so you- let, let's zoom out. So you, um, you've seen D2C change. You, uh, you also have seen, you know, you also invest in the stock market, and so you've seen Shopify, Amazon, Facebook. Give me, on each of those three stocks, give me your lay of the land on, like, what you think has happened, and where you think that those are going. Are they trending? Are, are they pr- rightly priced? Are they underpriced?

Moiz Ali 31:11 Sure.

Shaan Puri 31:11 Are they overpriced? You know, give me, give me Sh- Let's do Shopify first, and then, uh, we'll do Facebook and then Amazon.

Moiz Ali 31:17 Sure. Okay.

Shaan Puri 31:18 Yeah.

Moiz Ali 31:18 And for context, I've lost millions of dollars in Shopify stock-

Shaan Puri 31:22 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 31:22 ... in the last six months. Uh-

Shaan Puri 31:24 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 31:24 ... and you know, I wrote this Twitter thread about it as well, and I was like, uh, Shopify keeps, uh... Their, their, uh, their motto is to arm the rebels. And I, I said, "They keep giving us muskets in a war that's being fought with, like, nuclear weapons."

Shaan Puri 31:35 [laughs] And you, when you put out tweets like this and you, you basically say, "Hey, here's what I think you should do with your strategy," or, "If I was CEO, here's what I'd be doing," or, like, "As somebody who's lost millions of dollars on your stock-

Moiz Ali 31:45 Yeah

Shaan Puri 31:45 ... here's some things that I think could help," do you ever hear back? Is it crickets? Do you hear, get other interesting inbound? What, what happens after you put that out there? 'Cause I've done that a few times, and I've gotten very interesting, uh, situations occur from my, my, my tweets like that. W- what's happened for you?

Moiz Ali 32:00 Definitely interesting situations. Uh, Tobi, who's the CEO of, uh, Shopify, responded, and he's like, "These are great points." So did Harvey, who's the president. And definitely had some more interesting calls, and I'm not sure if that Tw- that Twitter thread, which was a couple months ago now, you know, informed them and helped them create this lookalike audience system that they're creating in Shopify, but that's wonderful. I don't want any credit. Just go do it so that we can go get cheaper, you know, cost- customers, so that we can acquire customers at a cheaper rate and build better businesses. Like, you know, go build out these products and make the, the platform fantastic. You know, a bunch of people pay Klaviyo more than they pay Shopify. A bunch of people pay Recharge more than they pay Shopify. Like, these are Shopify apps that it provides you with a small segment of, like, y- or a small thing compared to what Shopify, uh, enables you to do. You know, provide some of these services at cheaper costs, or build in some of these services to make the platform better. Like, you know, Triple Whale is doing a fantastic job at analytics. Why doesn't Shopify build their own subscription platform instead of outsourcing it to Recharge, which everybody hates and which charges a fortune? Like, what's going on there? It's been a... You've been publicly traded for years. This i- this is arming us w- uh, this is arming the rebels.

Shaan Puri 33:10 And so l- let's, let's shift away from D2C. Let's do other types of investing, 'cause you do real estate. Um, you've tried to buy pieces of sports teams. You've tried a bunch of different things. So let's just start with the big picture. So give me a, a pie chart percentage-wise of what do you do with your money? So you, you-

Moiz Ali 33:28 Yeah

Shaan Puri 33:28 ... you came to a bunch of money. You, uh, what's in cash, what's in real estate, what's in stocks? What, what are you doing percentage-wise roughly for those?

Moiz Ali 33:36 Great question. Um, great question, and I think the answer is I should know the ans- I, I know my CAC from yesterday.

Shaan Puri 33:41 [laughs] It's like, you should know your CAC.

Moiz Ali 33:42 I know my CAC.

Shaan Puri 33:42 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 33:43 Yeah. Th- and this is me not knowing my CAC, which is embarrassing. Um, the, that, like, uh, probably around 10 million in private equity. Um, probably around 40 million or 50 million in cash, uh, which is a lot. And not, like, cash cash where I'm, like, literally holding it in cash, but, like, really short-term bonds waiting for bond prices to go up. And so now I'm starting to leg into positions where I feel like interest rates are getting more, more exciting, and so I'll put my money there. Um, so you know, I've been investing in really short-term bonds that, you know, aren't really subject to much inter- interest rate risk, because they've got six-month maturities, and not five-year, you know, uh, bonds that are more subject to interest rate risk. And you know, since interest rates have gone up over the last four months, I've started to deploy more capital in that respect. Uh, but a lot of cash. Um, probably

Moiz Ali 34:35 25 million in real estate, 30 million in real estate that I'm, like, you know, that I, or, you know, my family owns and we're operating ourselves. And then probably another 10 million in real estate as LP somewhere, uh, here or there. Um, I don't know how much money that is. Uh, but then there's, like, you know, I don't know, then there's, like, random, and probably another 10 million in, um, startup investments. Um, so maybe more than 10 million-

Shaan Puri 35:02 How about the stock market?

Moiz Ali 35:02 ... in startup investments. Good question. Probably around 10 million in the stock market. Uh, maybe a little bit less now that Shopify and Facebook have gotten c- cremated.

Shaan Puri 35:09 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 35:11 Uh, so maybe less than that now. But I'm not ex- exactly sure what the amount is there.

Shaan Puri 35:15 And why such a big cash position? Is that to be conservative? Is that just I'm so busy, I haven't figured out how I'm gonna deploy all this? Uh-

Moiz Ali 35:21 Yeah

Shaan Puri 35:21 ... or is it, like, intentional, like, no, I want to have, let's say, 50%, 40%, 50% in cash and kind of bonds?

Moiz Ali 35:27 It's more reactive than it is proactive. Like, I'd love to be more invested, and part of it was actually, like, you know, proactive in terms of waiting for interest rates for, uh, to go up again. 'Cause you know, if you invested two years ago or three years ago, you've barely gotten any return on your dollar, so I was like, "We can sit on cash and not be subject to so much interest rate risk." Now I'm getting more excited about that. But a lot of it is, um, you know, when you get to a certain scale of wealth, you hire professionals who are, like, private wealth managers to help you deploy your capital in a way that's really intelligent, in a way that's unique, and, um, you know, supposedly gives you a competitive edge because you have more capital to deploy, so you're able to hire smarter people to deploy that and, you know, earn a greater return. That's the schtick that they sell you. I'm not sure that schtick is real at all. Like, uh, private wealth managers have been really disappointing. Like, no one is doing anything unique in this industry. You know, if you ask two private wealth managers, "What's the difference between you and this other person?" They'll just shit on the other person, and you'll be like, "What are you gonna get me... Like, what are you gonna invest me in that this person isn't? Like, what's your competitive advantage? Do you have access to deals that this person doesn't have access to?" Uh, they're like, "No, we're both manage the same amount of money. We've been around the same amount of time." And they're like, "You know, have you heard of Elliott?" I'm like, "Yeah, I've heard of Elliott. It's in The Wall Street Journal every fucking day."

Shaan Puri 36:43 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 36:43 I'm pretty sure everyone could get me in. But, like, you know, their fund is $20 billion. I'm sure a- anyone could get me in there. And they're like, "Yeah, anyone could get you in there, but we know them really well." And I'm like-

Shaan Puri 36:52 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 36:52 ... "Okay, I don't know what that means."

Shaan Puri 36:53 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 36:54 Um, and so, like, I guess where I've been disappointed and where I've lost in this world, uh, is how do I deploy my capital in a really effective way? And, you know, every pr- like, you know, if I tweet something about this, I twee- tweeted, like, "Hey, if you've got $300,000... If you're earning $300,000 a year, it's really hard to know what to do with your money. You're not rich enough for the private wealth manager, and you're too, um, rich for the Bank of America person who sits at the retail branch." And, you know, I got a bunch of, um, people who are like, "I do this for 300,000." People who earn about $300,000 a year. I didn't vet any of them, but, like, they were aggressive. And, like, you know, these private wealth managers, if you sell a business, they just reach out to you, and they're like, "Help us. Let us manage your money." And you're like, "What are you gonna put me in?" And literally none of them say anything unique. None of them have their own things. They're just like, "We're gonna invest you in this other guy's, uh, fund." And every private wealth manager can get you in there. For instance, with public equities, they all tell you, "Go invest with Parametric. They do tax-loss harvesting, so you'll get an extra .25% to .5% return over the S&P 500 if you invest with Parametric, as opposed to doing this... A- as opposed to just investing in a Vanguard ETF." But they all tell you to do that. Why would, like... You know, why use Goldman Sachs instead of First Republic instead of a smaller boutique fund if you're all just gonna invest with th- this dollars with Parametric? You're all the same at that point. It's like, you know, y- it's like buying an airline ticket from Kayak or Expedia, but riding on American Airlines and getting the exact same seat. Ultimately, you're getting the same product. And so I haven't been smart enough and spent enough time figuring this stuff out.

Shaan Puri 38:24 Gotcha. And then what about, uh, crypto? You don't do anything in crypto? And is there a, like, a strong opinion, like, oh, it's all, you know, fugazi or, or, or, or you just haven't had time?

Moiz Ali 38:34 Uh, very little with crypto. I'm, like, a, an investor in a couple fund of funds that have made a fortune in crypto.

Shaan Puri 38:40 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 38:40 So these funds have returned, uh, uh, a significant amount. And it wasn't in their sort of, like, fund charter to go invest in crypto.

Shaan Puri 38:47 Yeah. [laughs]

Moiz Ali 38:47 But they did it anyway. And they're like, "Look, we're up, you know, 10,000%."

Shaan Puri 38:51 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 38:52 "So you can't complain." You know, they're like, "Look, we turned your dollar into $10,000. You can't be a m- you can't be an asshole LP and be like, 'What the fuck? You can't do this.'" They're like, "Here's $10,000. Shut the fuck up."

Shaan Puri 39:03 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 39:03 So, you know, they can do it. Um, generally-

Shaan Puri 39:06 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 39:06 ... I just don't understand the value yet. And, um, so I've been hesitant to get in there. I'm, I'm not opposed to it. You know, everyone says invest 5% of your net wealth in it. I wouldn't invest 5% of my net wealth in it. Um, you know, it's hard because, uh, the Sam Parrs of the world are like, "Moiz, you're not investing in crypto. What the fuck are you doing?" And the Warren Buffets of the world are like, "If you offered me all the crypto in the world for $20, I would not buy it." And so, um, I guess I've just been sitting on the sidelines. I don't know if that's good or bad. Uh, but if someone has a strong opinion and can convince me, please do so.

Shaan Puri 39:36 [laughs] Okay, I'm gonna resist the urge to do that now, because people have-

Moiz Ali 39:41 Okay

Shaan Puri 39:41 ... heard me rant too many times on it. Um, all right, so, a- a- I guess let's, let's do a little bit, like, uh, uh... Let's do a little... Touch on real- little real estate, then we'll do the personal stuff. So real estate-

Moiz Ali 39:50 Sure, yeah

Shaan Puri 39:51 ... you've been deploying, but now it feels like the landscape has changed. I think you kind of have an opinion on what's changed. Give me your current take on, like, what do you see and what are you doing?

Moiz Ali 40:01 Yeah. So, uh, I left Native in, uh, February 2020. And, um, right when COVID was gonna hit, like, I was like, I'm gonna go to Europe, and I'm gonna tr- I'm gonna go to France. I'm gonna try and drink all of the wine they produced in 2019-

Shaan Puri 40:13 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 40:13 ... in February 2020 in France. And, uh-

Shaan Puri 40:16 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 40:16 ... then COVID hit, and instead I was stuck with my parents, like, you know, all day. [laughs]

Shaan Puri 40:21 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 40:21 Uh, and it was a very different experience than I suspected it was gonna be. Um, and so I started buying real estate. And so from, like, January... Or from February 2020 to probably the end of 2021, I bought about 50, uh, or so units. Um, all generally single-family homes, some duplexes, some fourplexes. Uh, two units in, uh, you know, all... And, and aside from those 50 units, two units in, like, uh, California, where, uh, they're, like, old apartment buildings that are really small and we're renovating. And then I was an LP in a bunch of different funds. Um, you know, e- everyone who bought in 2019, you look like a fucking genius. Like, people are like, "Wow, you're such a s- a savvy real estate investor." I was like, "I, I started buying because I had nothing else to do." You know, if they were gonna return money, they're gonna return 5%. They're returning 12, 14% now, and that's fantastic, but I'm not sure I was very savvy about it. Um, I, I haven't used leverage, which is really stupid of me. And then, you know, uh, it's really stupid today because if I'd borrowed, you know, a year ago, I would've gotten 2.5% interest. I could have just invested in a 10-year bond and made money. I just haven't used leverage, in part because I'm too lazy to try and get it, and in part because I'm like, you know, I've got enough capital to deploy already. Um, and the returns have been fantastic. You know, I, I bought homes, and I was underwriting for 6% returns that are 12, 14% returns. They're crazy. I bought a fourplex for $600,000. I thought each unit would rent out for, like, $800. They're each renting out for about $1,400 now. So it's m- I'm making a fortune. Uh, people are, are struggling with rents, and so state governments are often stepping in and providing rents to landlords. Like, you know, we get a call being like, "Hey, John can't pay his rent. We're gonna cover the rent for the next 18 months." And, you know, they'll cut you a check for 18 months of rent and late fees, which is bananas. Um, and so it's been a fantastic investment. But yeah, I am slowing down now.

Shaan Puri 42:11 And, uh, do you think... You know, where, where do you think this goes? Are you gonna... You're slowing down, but is, are you slowing down because you sort of are like, "Okay, I'm allocated how much I want to be allocated," or are you slowing down because you're like, "Wait, this no longer... These prices no longer make sense"?

Moiz Ali 42:24 Uh, it's not even the prices don't make any sense any longer, because I've... This, this is the one asset class where I'm like, I have a really long-term view. You know, stocks, I pr- Look, I've been in Shopify, never sold a share. Facebook I've been in, I've never sold a share. Have had them both for five years, if not longer. Uh, Microsoft I've been in for, uh, more than a decade. I remember buying it while I was in, in my admin law class in law school, and I've still held, uh, every one of those shares. So look, you know, generally I, I'm, like, I, I'm a pretty good long-term investor. Real estate, I think of myself as a pr- Like, you know, I will never sell any unit, uh, in, in real estate. Like, my children will inherit this. Um, or, you know, natural disasters will take these things, uh, into the ocean.

Shaan Puri 43:04 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 43:05 I'm okay with either of those, but I will not sell one under any circumstance.

Shaan Puri 43:08 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 43:08 So I'm not really worried about prices, uh, you know, in, in terms of cap rate long-term, but I do think there'll be a small market correction. So I, I guess I've slowed down my purchasing. I'm still, uh, under contract to buy two or three units in the next couple months, but I'm not... Like, before I was trying to buy, you know, a unit a week or, you know, two units a, a month, and now I'm sort of like, "Let me buy a unit a month or less just to see what happens to the market as interest rates go up." And I think these prices will come down a little bit. But I, I, like, you know, I, a, a lot of my cash is in real estate, you know, $25, $30 million. Uh, I, I'm not scared. Like, you know, if the market crashes, no, nobody will be more excited than me. I will deploy all the cash-

Shaan Puri 43:46 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 43:46 ... I'm sitting on for this. I have no problem if that $30 million goes down to five. I will not get... Like, this is the one asset class where I will not get scared. I will double, triple, or quadruple down, as opposed to being like, "Oh my God, I gotta sell what I've got."

Shaan Puri 43:59 And that's just because you're like, this is a, a concrete asset. It's t- there's limited supply. There's always gonna be demand.

Moiz Ali 44:06 Yeah, it's such a-

Shaan Puri 44:06 That's what I'm saying

Moiz Ali 44:06 ... Daisy mentality. You know?

Shaan Puri 44:08 Yeah.

Moiz Ali 44:08 It's like my parents' mentality of like, it cash flows. It's immune to Facebook ad prices. It's immune to the stock market. It's like generally, uh, like it's real diversification for my e-commerce and startup investments. Like, these things, they'll exist. Um, they're general- they're primarily in the South, with the exception of g- a few in California and a few in Colorado. They're places where people are moving to and not moving from. Um, and so I'm excited about them. And, uh, yeah, so I, I would never... I, I have no desire to sell them. Get emails and calls all the time. No excitement whatsoever to sell. Love holding this stuff. And generally, it's a ton of cash. And, you know, the other way I think about it is, um, and this is also pretty Daisy mentality, is like, okay, I've got all these expenses per year and no job. Uh, I need something to make up for that, like, tho- these expenses. Like, I don't wanna dip into capital. I don't believe in d-

Shaan Puri 44:56 You're like-

Moiz Ali 44:56 Like, you know, dipping into-

Shaan Puri 44:57 Your like, the balance never goes down.

Moiz Ali 44:59 Yeah, yeah.

Shaan Puri 44:59 And the balance will always go up. [laughs]

Moiz Ali 45:00 That's right. I'm terrified of the balance going down. And so I'm like, I need something to, uh, afford my lifestyle, and this real estate helps me afford my lifestyle.

Shaan Puri 45:09 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 45:11 How do you think about that?

Shaan Puri 45:12 Uh, that... Uh, I'm, I don't know w- if I'm just too dumb or too lazy, but it's one of the two where I'm like, um, I basically picked two lanes to think about, and I was like, "I don't really have the, like, mind share to be able to think about..." Like, if I go into real estate today, I'm the dumbest guy in the room. Okay, well, it doesn't take a genius to do real estate, so that's okay. I think if I put my mind to it, I could do that, but that's now m- mental cycles that are not going towards my business or the stuff I'm more interested in where I think I can have a bigger edge, where I think I can be-

Moiz Ali 45:43 Sure

Shaan Puri 45:43 ... more like the top 1%, rather than, like, the 60, you know, 60 percentile or whatever.

Moiz Ali 45:48 Sure.

Shaan Puri 45:48 And so th- that's the first part is like, do I want to try to learn this game from scratch if I'm gonna do anything direct? Or even if I'm gonna invest in funds, I gotta have some ability to vet these funds, to pick.

Moiz Ali 45:59 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 45:59 But okay, they're, they're all pretty safe. You can get your 5, 6%, it seems like, you know, without... You, you... It's not totally variable like that. Um, the other thing is like i- in direct, I'm just like, "Who is gonna have the time to manage all this?" Like, I did one transaction buying my house that I was gonna buy, I was gonna live in, in San Francisco.

Moiz Ali 46:16 Sure.

Shaan Puri 46:17 And just the process of the, dealing with the bank to get the loan and then the closing, the escrow, and then the inspections and... It was like I'm, I couldn't do anything else. I was, like, paralyzed from, like, actually doing stuff I liked because I was just constantly having to nurse this project. And I, I was like, I can't imagine buying 50 units in a year, um, or, you know, 20 units in a year, and, like, the amount of just transactional, like, logistics that I would have to go through.

Moiz Ali 46:41 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 46:41 It's such a turn-off from like, for what is the return?

Moiz Ali 46:43 Sure.

Shaan Puri 46:44 Basically, the same average as the stock market in the long term? Okay. Like, I don't have to diver... Uh, uh, diversification is not that important to me to, like, do both of those things. Like, the mental cycles plus the physical energy it would take to do the transactions and then manage them and then, like-

Moiz Ali 46:58 Yeah

Shaan Puri 46:58 ... you know, my, my, my tenant calls... You know, my property manager calls me about the tenant that's calling me about whatever. I don't actually even know what goes into it, but I know it's not nothing. And right now-

Moiz Ali 47:07 Totally

Shaan Puri 47:07 ... my tolerance is nothing for, like-

Moiz Ali 47:09 Yeah, yeah

Shaan Puri 47:09 ... a, for, like, headache.

Moiz Ali 47:11 Yeah, and this isn't like, you know, it's someone calls you on a Monday being like, "My AC is broken," and it's in San Antonio, Texas. You can't be like, "Okay, I'm gonna get back to you Thursday." Like, you know, it's 110 degrees outside. You need to get that fixed in the next 12 hours. So you're right, there is a lot of pain there. When I was purchasing-

Shaan Puri 47:28 I, I called my manager. The, I rent the current place that I live in, and I called and was like, "Hey, there's, like, a weird smell." He's like, "Okay, so, like, where's it coming from?" I was like, "I don't know. It's a smell. I, I, I can't see it." He's like, "Okay, like, what kind of smell?" I was like, "I don't know. It's just, like, bad."

Moiz Ali 47:40 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 47:40 "It, like, smells really bad." And he's just like, "Okay, you gotta give me something." [laughs] And I was like... And it's Sunday, and like, "You need to send someone here because I can't have a house with a bad smell." Like, and I'm just like, "I got kids." You know?

Moiz Ali 47:50 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 47:50 That, that's the card. And I'm like, "You gotta send somebody now to figure out this mystery thing." And then the, the guy comes over. He's like, "Where's the crawl space?" I'm like, "I don't know. It's not my house. I don't know. Go ask this guy-

Moiz Ali 47:59 Sure

Shaan Puri 47:59 ... in Arizona who owns this house who's 90 years old. Go ask him where the crawl space is of this property, because it's his problem to, like, fix this for me, and I'm just gonna be a baby about it." And then I think about what it's like to be on the other side of that, and I'm like, is that worth the, like, $500, like, net that he's making per month on my, on my rent? It's like, probably not for me.

Moiz Ali 48:18 Definitely not. Yeah, yeah.

Shaan Puri 48:19 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 48:20 Yeah. No, you're absolutely right about that. And what was in the crawl space? Was it, like, a dead animal?

Shaan Puri 48:23 I don't know. We never found out yet. The guy didn't get back to me-

Moiz Ali 48:25 [laughs] Yeah

Shaan Puri 48:25 ... and now I'm pissed.

Moiz Ali 48:26 I gotcha. [laughs]

Shaan Puri 48:26 Like, [laughs] we have no idea-

Moiz Ali 48:28 Yeah

Shaan Puri 48:28 ... where, where it is.

Moiz Ali 48:30 Yeah, that's ridiculous.

Shaan Puri 48:30 Uh, the guy, like, sealed up one hole, so he's like, "Maybe this will help the smell go away." That was it. I was like, "Okay, well, we still don't know what's causing the smell. [laughs] You just bottled it up." [laughs] Like, whatever's in the wall that's dead or whatever-

Moiz Ali 48:41 That's a real problem, yeah

Shaan Puri 48:42 ... is going on here-

Moiz Ali 48:42 Sure

Shaan Puri 48:42 ... is, like, you know, he's like, he, he... The guy came over, and on Google Translate he typed out, he's like, "If the smell's still here tomorrow, I'll come undo the whole wall thing I just did, and I'll go find what's in there." [laughs] I was like, "Bro, can't you just do that now?" [laughs] "Can we not go into the wall now? Why do we gotta do this?"

Moiz Ali 48:57 He put that on Google Translate? That's hilarious. Um-

Shaan Puri 49:00 Yeah

Moiz Ali 49:00 ... a bunch of, a bunch of the real estate I bought is, like, at auction And so, um, when you walk... Like, they're very... There's no inspection, there's no financing ability. Like, you know, you bid on an auction, you, you write... You know, you wire the money the next day, and then you open the house and you're like, "What did I just get into?" And so, um, sometimes you'll walk in... Like, there was one house I, I had purchased and the guy had passed away, not in the house, but, like, everything was still inside of his house. Forks and knives, spoons. His cars were in the garage. He had a safe in there. We had to empty of the entire house out before we could rent it out. And, you know, you have no i- a, a... And, like, that was a mediocre situation because, like, you know, everything was still in okay shape. He used to live there. There was another house I got that was in perfect shape. Like, you couldn't... Like, you know, you go into the house and you, like, try and look through the blinds to find out what the condition is gonna be inside. This one you couldn't see at all. It's the only house I've been to where I was like, I couldn't see at all. And I opened up the lock when after I'd bought it, and it's in perfect condition. There have been houses that I've bought, I walk in and I'm like, "Fuck, I j- " You know, I'm gonna have to spend $40,000 that I didn't underwrite for replacing the roof or changing the tile or putting in a new kitchen. And so it is a lot of, like, rolling the dice, uh, a- at least in the, in the, with the way that I've purchased, and sort of, uh, using, you know, the law of large numbers to be like, "This is gonna make sense at some point."

Shaan Puri 50:19 Yeah.

Moiz Ali 50:19 And sometimes it does, and sometimes you get screwed and, you know, you just eat the ones that got screwed. Like, there have been two that I've purchased i- in two years ago that are still not rented because I haven't done the work to go and fix the houses to make them habitable.

Shaan Puri 50:32 Right.

Moiz Ali 50:33 Um, and that's, you know, that's a lot of capital being... That was deployed and nothing's happening with right now.

Shaan Puri 50:38 That... Yeah, you need to just, like, get some YouTuber who does, like... He's trying to make content about, like, renovating homes. Be like, "Hey, you can use my home, and, like, you get, you know, X percent and you get to use all the content. This is your home, sir. Go ahead and make-

Moiz Ali 50:50 I would love that. Yeah

Shaan Puri 50:51 ... go ahead and flip this thing."

Moiz Ali 50:52 Definitely.

Shaan Puri 50:53 You know, uh-

Moiz Ali 50:53 Yeah, that'd be great

Shaan Puri 50:54 ... you and your brother both do this, which is I think you treat business like a, like a... Like, business is your fun, like, your adventure. I, I feel the same way, and I asked him, 'cause I... He, he gave me money and he, he was like, "I'm gonna advise your s- your company." And I was like, "Cool, but, like, just so you know, like, why are you doing this? Like, I want you to do this, but, like, as your friend, I'm like, 'Why are you doing this? This is a waste of your time.' Like, this is never gonna make enough money to move the needle. Like, your s- share of this is never gonna make enough money to justify the time and energy and, like, it's not gonna move the needle for you. So, like, really this makes no sense. Why are you doing this?" And he goes, [laughs] he said something. He goes, um, he goes, like, "I am not happy unless I am, like, um, entrapped in, you know, in a business."

Moiz Ali 51:37 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 51:37 And he's like, "But as lo-..." He's like, "Th- as long as I get to create the... I wanna live in a prison of my own making, and, like-

Moiz Ali 51:42 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 51:43 ... as long as I get to choose, I'm good. But, like, I'm also not, like... I can't be content and fulfilled unless I'm, like, unless I'm locked into, like, a raging battle with, like, you know, some, like, business thing." And I was like, "Wow, that's crazy, but it also makes sense to me." And you're the same way when you're like, "How do I do real estate on hard mode?" Like, you could just LP a bunch of funds, and you're like, "No, I'm gonna go buy stuff. I'm not just gonna buy good stuff. I'm gonna buy stuff at auctions, and I'm gonna go have to take like a, you know, two-by-four and break off a lock, and then, like, walk in and see what I got, and then, like, figure out how to turn this into, like, $1,400 a month of rent." And you're like-

Moiz Ali 52:19 That's right. [laughs] That's right

Shaan Puri 52:20 ... "Yes, sign me up." Whereas I'm like, that's, like, that's what you do to get to your, your spot. You got there, and then went back to the beginning and, like, I'm now gonna call y- I don't even know this analogy, but, like, I always heard my engineers talk about servers that run on bare metal. And, like, I don't know enough about servers to know what the fuck that means, but it was always like, what's the most, like, hardcore way this server can run? It's, like, optimized for performance and, like, just the, just the term bare metal, like, just told me everything I needed to know about what the hell they were talking about. It's, like, this kind of waste of time, hard mode way of doing something that does yield, like, the best return and, like, satisfaction of, like, optimizing the change.

Moiz Ali 52:56 That's what it is, yeah.

Shaan Puri 52:57 I was just, like, squeezing the juice out of the fruit and, like, to me it's like, Moiz, you're like, you like to operate on bare metal. It's like you're choosing to, like, play this game on, like... You're like, "How do I hand write my UTM parameters on my ads? And then, like, how do I, uh, you know, stock my deodorant sticks myself and answer every customer service question? And then how do I, like, buy real estate at a foreclosed auction with no financing and no diligence, and then, like, figure out how to make that work?" You're bare metal.

Moiz Ali 53:25 You know, there is, like, um... First, uh, the, the... I learned how to break into houses. Like, I learned how to pick locks because of real estate. Like, I can walk into a house now and, like, open it up pretty much, because-

Shaan Puri 53:36 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 53:37 And, like, I, I carry tools with me when I'm traveling to these houses-

Shaan Puri 53:40 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 53:40 ... to be able to, like, open up homes so that I can go inside, which is a little bit crazy. Um, a- a- and in fact, I saw my parents. My parents are, you know, two o- like, an older, uh, Indian couple obviously, that are, like, infirm and walk. You know, my mom will be like, "My knee hurts," and she walks with a limp.

Shaan Puri 53:57 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 53:57 And then when she's trying to break into a house with me, she'll turn into, like, Yoda, where, and she can do spins.

Shaan Puri 54:02 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 54:02 She's like, "What if I climb up to the top of the ceiling and, like, go chi- you know, chimney down the chimney? I think I can get us in there."

Shaan Puri 54:08 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 54:08 And I'm like, "I thought your knee hurt-

Shaan Puri 54:10 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 54:10 ... but now we're, now you're perfectly fine. You can, like, climb this wall and, like, you know, go up the, uh, go up the, into the chimney." And she's like, "Yeah, I got it for this." Uh, but I think that r- really, I think there's a lot of, um, in my family, there's just a lot of interest in business, and so being an LP is a ton of fun, and I'm an LP in a bunch of these, uh, real estate funds, and I'm, like, looking at the numbers, and some are making good money and some aren't. But, like, you know, there's no, um, sexiness to it. It's, uh, it's, uh, paper money. Like, you know, bring me the sexy problems. Like, oh, your toilet is broken?

Shaan Puri 54:42 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 54:42 What the fuck are you doing here? Why is your toilet break every day?

Shaan Puri 54:45 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 54:45 Uh, oh, the government is gonna write me a check for 18 months? This is crazy. The government is gonna pay me late fees? The government is gonna call me and be like, "Hey, Moiz, you've got a house here. This guy can't pay his rent. We're gonna pay you 18 months of future rent, and the last two months, and late fee for the last two months"? Tell me why you're doing this. How did you get to this? Uh, who thought this was a good idea? Uh, you know, does Greg Abbott-

Shaan Puri 55:05 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 55:05 ... think this is a good idea? 'Cause that's a lot of money you're gonna give me. And so, um, you know, business is great and making money is great, but it's a lot more fun to be an active participant rather than a sidelines part- participant. Like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna read what's in The Wall Street Journal and be like, "Okay, that's great." I wanna be, like, a part of that system that's going on. There's a great, like, analogy where this guy who's a partner at a big law firm, his name was Joe Flom, he worked at Skadden Arps. Uh, this was back in like the '80s and '90s where there were all these mergers happening. Um, he's, he was like 80 years old, and he slipped and fell in his bathroom, and his head was bleeding. And, uh, he walked into this board meeting because he was part of this board that needed to fend off a hostile acquirer, and he had paper towels on his head 'cause he was bleeding, and he's 80 years old.

Shaan Puri 55:50 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 55:51 And people were like, "What the fuck is going on? You're bleeding profusely and you're 80." He's like-

Shaan Puri 55:55 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 55:55 ... "I slipped and fell." And they're like, "Go to the hospital." And he's like, "No, I wanna be here." And they're like, "Why? What's going on?" He's like, "I don't care if I'm, you know, acquiring a company or fighting off an acquirer. I just wanna be in the game, and nothing is gonna stop me." And this guy was 80, and bleeding, and had paper towels on his head, but he wanted to be in the game, and I really respect that. Like, I wanna be in the game. That's where there's, uh, a lot of fun in life.

Shaan Puri 56:18 You, um, you watch basketball, right?

Moiz Ali 56:20 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 56:23 Do you, uh... Which, like, athlete or in any sport, doesn't matter, which athlete are you like, "I admire their... Like, the way they do their thing is how I do my thing-"

Moiz Ali 56:32 Yeah

Shaan Puri 56:32 ... or how I want to do my thing?"

Moiz Ali 56:33 Yeah. Tom Brady. Tom Brady for too... Like, I remember he won a Super Bowl, and there was this 60 Minutes, like, uh, interview with him. At 27, he was... This was, uh, not his, like, you know, seventh Super Bowl. This is, like, his second. And they're like, "So what are you... You know, you're a Super Bowl champion, uh, NFL MVP, what do you think?" And he's like, "Is this all there is to life?" Like, that's what he said at the end. He's like, "Is this all there is?" And, you know, then he retired after two weeks. He's like, "I gotta get back in the game. I had two weeks off. This is boring. I need to be back in the game."

Shaan Puri 57:01 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 57:02 And he's just, like, an ultimate competitor, and I really admire that about him. But I'm sorry, that was the answer to the question.

Shaan Puri 57:07 That's, that's great. Uh, I don't... Do you have five, five more minutes? I wanna do, uh-

Moiz Ali 57:11 Yeah, yeah. I've got five minutes

Shaan Puri 57:11 ... a couple on the personal stuff. All right. So-

Moiz Ali 57:13 So what were you gonna ask about the athlete stuff, though? I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Shaan Puri 57:16 No, that's what I was asking. I just wanted to know-

Moiz Ali 57:17 Oh, gotcha. Yeah

Shaan Puri 57:18 ... who you, who you admire. [upbeat music] I can't find this client info.

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Shaan Puri 57:36 You, uh, we had a little doc. I said, "Put down some bullet points." I said, "You don't have to explain what they mean, but-"

Moiz Ali 57:41 Yeah

Shaan Puri 57:41 ... uh, "give me some nuggets that we could go off of." On it, you had a section personal stuff, and you go... You have two that are really interesting to me. You go, "I don't know how to spend money." What does that mean?

Moiz Ali 57:48 Yeah. Um, you know, I'm living in Airbnbs that are, like, five grand a month. Uh, I don't have a car. I don't have a house. Uh, I live out of a suitcase. Um, and, like, you know, when expensive things are, like, nice, I'm like, "Can I afford..." Like, I still do the math of being like, "This seems too expensive for the value I'm getting," even though that... Like, you know, at this point, $1,000 probably has no value to me. Not, like, no value, but, like, it does- it's not gonna materially change my life. And I'm still so cautious when I'm spending $20. I don't know what the... I don't know how to get this out of my system.

Shaan Puri 58:18 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 58:19 Do you know how to get it out of your system?

Shaan Puri 58:22 Um, I don't know how to get it out of my system. I have no problem spending money. Um, in fact-

Moiz Ali 58:27 Okay. Gotcha. You don't have the same problem

Shaan Puri 58:28 ... I spend so too much money, but, like, I've seen this. And I think, you know, the, one of the main things is I see my dad.

Moiz Ali 58:33 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 58:33 And my dad has done really well f- right, like, for... Like, he's got the same immigrant story that, like, everybody has, which is you come to the country. He had, I think, $91. That was starting point, right? So that's the before.

Moiz Ali 58:44 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 58:44 And then, like, you know, he's made good money in his lifetime. Uh, nothing, like, you know, crazy to write home about, but, like, especially from a $91 starting point, like-

Moiz Ali 58:53 Yeah

Shaan Puri 58:53 ... they are, they... My parents have enough money to do whatever they want. They really don't need to penny pinch. But, like, you know, if we go to Starbucks, and it's like, you know, "Would you like the..." He's like, "Can I have the small?" They're like, "Okay, it's called tall." He's like, "No, but what's a smaller than tall? Because I feel like-"

Moiz Ali 59:07 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 59:07 "... tall is gonna be overpri-" He's like, "You know, this is $3. Like, I, I can make this. It's mostly water." Like, and he'll be talking to the people about it, right? I'm just like, oh my God. Like, not only is this embarrassing, but, like, it's embarrassing in the moment 'cause he'll just be like, "Let me clarify. You're saying the thing that's mostly water is $3.80? Like, uh, hold on, hold on. [laughs] Stop the line."

Moiz Ali 59:29 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 59:29 "What's, what's going on here?" Or, like, you know, he, you know, he'll pack seven people into a hotel room 'cause, like, you know, "We can make it work." It's like, yeah-

Moiz Ali 59:37 Yeah

Shaan Puri 59:37 ... but do we have to?

Moiz Ali 59:39 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 59:39 Um, like, we're on vacation here. Why does it have to be a struggle? And, like, and so, you know, the... I just saw he could never get it out of his system. Like, those in-

Moiz Ali 59:45 Yeah

Shaan Puri 59:45 ... those, the scarcity mindset was just so, like, ingrained in him because... And that's like, all right, I get it. Like, he had no safety net. He had $91. Like, every dollar counted. And, like, it wasn't about spending, it was about, like, saving to get to build a safety net, 'cause you're in this new co- You're in a foreign country, your parents can't help you, nobody can help you. Like, and so I get that. But I saw that, like, oh, wow, you know, actually the money come... It wasn't logical. Like, once the money was there, that didn't change. The mindset didn't change. So it's like I had to separate out there's a mindset around money, and then there's, like, the logical, like, situation about the money. And, like, there's actually... Like, they're unrelated. You would think once the logical-

Moiz Ali 1:00:23 Yeah

Shaan Puri 1:00:23 ... situation change, the mindset will change. And it's like, no, it doesn't. So it's, like, an active thing. And so then I just started to, like... One of the reasons I asked you who you admire, and you're like, "I admire this guy who's got, like, a bloody head going into the board meeting 'cause he wants to do business that bad," I would view that as a failure, and you view that as a success. And, like, uh, because I have this belief which is you become what you admire, right? Like, fundamentally-

Moiz Ali 1:00:45 Yeah

Shaan Puri 1:00:45 ... if you admire so- something, you're gonna strive to it. So it, it makes a lot of sense to really pick and choose what you admire. Like, I'll give you an example. A lot of people admire Elon Musk, and I think Elon Musk is s- obviously super incredible in a couple of ways. Like, he is one of the greatest inventor and businessman of our time and, like, you know, the greatest since Steve Jobs, I would say. But, like, you know, I think he's like an Edison of our time. Great.

Moiz Ali 1:01:09 Sure.

Shaan Puri 1:01:09 Um, but he's also had, I think, like, you know, I don't know, four failed marriages, and, like, that's not something I want for myself. So, like, I gotta be careful- To admire the li- like, the, the all-encompassing person because I don't want the all- the full result of that. Like, the, you know, a- and so you kinda gotta like... So I got, I got really specific about what I admired. And once I admired certain things, then I started to live life like those people. It's like, "Well, this guy's really, really happy." And like, "Wow, he's like pretty generous." And he's not generous based off of having this like huge amount of wealth. He's generous because like he doesn't feel super scarce about money. He doesn't feel this lack of money. Um, and so he's like willing to give, and like he's willing to give freely, and he doesn't think twice about it, and then he doesn't pat himself on the back about it either. Like, oh, wow, I really admire that about him. Like, I wanna be more like that. And so to me, the only thing that got me to change my mindset was knowing that it's not gonna change based on how much money's in the bank. And B, like I have to change who I admire if I'm gonna like change who I become, right? Because like I will naturally start to follow those blueprints, uh, and observe people doing those things and be like, "Oh, downloaded that." Like, I will, um, I will make that ha- I will make that happen. Like, I'll give you a little small win for me on this front. Like, uh, I was just on vacation. I was in Hawaii last week. And like, uh, my parent, my dad is, like I said, like a horrible tipper. And like, so my whole life I basically saw my mom being like, "Tip him," and my dad being like, "You don't have to." And like, "You don't have to," or like, "I did." And I'm like, he handed him like a one. Like one one was his tip, and like the absolute minimum. And I just saw the look on the valet guy's face or whatever like it, it wasn't even valet. Like, he wouldn't do valet. It's like the face of the guy who you, you're mandatory. He- he's standing there. You gotta give him something. The bellhop, right? And it's like, so this time, um, we get to the place. The bellhop takes up our bags, you know, to the hotel room or whatever. And, um, I felt all those same urges of like my upbringing, which was like, "We can just take the bags ourself." It's like, yeah, but like that's this guy's job. And like it's not about being lazy. It's like that's how this economy works. That's how this ecosystem works. If I don't... Like, you gotta feed the whole food chain, otherwise somebody's not gonna eat, right? So it's like- Yeah ... okay, I'm gonna let him do that. Then we got to the room. It's like we have no cash 'cause I don't carry any ca- dollar bills. Like, I only have cards. And so I've been in this situation like five times before, and I'm not, I'm not proud of it, but like I would just be like, "Dude, sorry, I don't ha- like I don't have anything. I don't have any cash. We just got here. I didn't bring cash." Or I would like, you know, let the guy leave it at the door and then I'd be like, you know, not there to like tip the guy. And, uh, and this time I was like, I was like, "Hey, man, like s- I'm so sorry. I don't have any cash on me. What's your name?" And then like I made sure I went and got him later, and it was like, again, whatever, 10 bucks. But those 10 bucks meant a lot to my- to me and like- Yeah ... okay, that's a step in the direction of the guy who's not s- like has this lack mindset or scarce mindset about money and is looking to, like hold on tightly to everything or like avoid paying things. It's like, no, no, no. Um, like m- you know, make it happen. I actually had like a, a pretty comical series of events where on th- even on this trip where I like, my kid is two and a half, but it c- but I don't know if you know kids fly free under two. Um- Yeah ... and so I bought first class tickets 'cause I'm trying to be a baller shot caller, but then I do the lap ch- I, I lie about her age to make sure she's under two. And like, I, I knew in the moment I was like, "This feels wrong," but I was also like the logic was like, well, it's like a couple thousand bucks to buy this two-year-old kid a seat. Like, am I really gonna do that? And then everybody told me they don't check, so I'm like, "I'm gonna get away with it." And I got penalized so bad for this cheapness that like it was just karma teaching me this wonderful lesson. 'Cause we get to the plane, and they're like, "Oh, you guys can't sit, like, sorry, you can't board the plane." I'm like, "What do you mean?" Like, not only can I not board the plane, I'm first class. I get to board first. And they were like, "No. Actually, you have like two lap infants. You got two little babies. There's only like X number of masks in the top thing. So like there's three masks, and there's four of you. We can't let you board this plane. We're gonna have to ask to see if somebody wants to switch seats with you for you to get on this plane." And I was like, "What?" And I was like, "Nobody's gonna wanna switch seats with the people with the baby [laughs] and like have us sit next to them." Like- Yeah ... it's not gonna ha- So sure enough, they go on. Nobody wants to switch. I'm like, "All right, we'll, we'll take, uh, like a, we'll buy another seat." Like, "It's too late, sir. The seat- It's full ... flight's full." I'm like, "All right, we'll, we'll go to coach. We'll, we'll, we'll move back." They're like, "Coach is full." And I was like, "All right, what's the next flight?" They're like, "It's tomorrow." I'm like, oh, fuck. I knew this little cheap move on my part of lying about- Would bite you ... the four months of my kid's age would come back to bite me, and it did. And so then like we, my wife and I, we had this horrible flight over where like one, my wife was on the last row of the plane with a baby in the middle row between two people. And like, 'cause some guy was like, "I'll give up my middle seat in the back, like to c-" And now I'm sitting next to this dude. And so instead of having this awesome family experience, we're having this terrible one because I cheaped out. And so I just started to pay attention to all the ways that saving money was costing me money and costing me- Yeah ... like joy, uh, rather than like how much it's saving me and like what I, what I keep. And so then who do you admire then? Is it, is it somebody who's made that mind... Like, who is that? Yeah, like my trainer. So like I talk about him a lot. It's probably like eye roll at this point, but like, uh, the happiest person I know, and not happy in like- Yeah ... a cheesy way, like- Yeah ... but in a- Genuine ... damn, I've never seen this dude not in a good mood. And like I've seen him stuck in traffic for three hours. I've been late, super fucking late and inconsiderate, and like, you know, like, but he greets me like he's, he's just been having a party. He's like, "Dude- Yeah ... where you been?" Because his life is a traveling party. And so I saw that, and I was like, man, on every conventional metric that like I was raised, like you, you came from a brown family. It's like he's, uh, I think he's like 41, 42 years old. He's not married. That's a, that's a like household disaster if you're like- [laughs] ... a, a, a brown person. It's like, you know, we're having i- interventions, you know, if that happens. Um, you know, he does well for himself as a personal trainer, but he's not like the most successful guy I know. Like I, I'm surrounded by people with more, quote-unquote, "success" than him- Yeah ... um, in terms of financial success. Um, you know, so like, you know, just in terms of like the kinda conventional metrics, the things I thought were most important, you know, his scoreboard, it wasn't like, wow, this guy... I admire him because he's successful. It's like he's successful at the game of life because this dude's never in a bad mood. And like because of that, everybody wants to be around him. He's the most loved guy I know. Because of that, he has these like magical experiences where it's like you go to a coffee shop with this guy and like you're gonna have, like something, if you just hang out with him for three hours, like something awesome is gonna happen because his mood. He's gonna make a joke, and then that person's gonna say this thing, and then they're gonna take us to the back room and hook us up because they just g- liked our vibe. And like I tell this story. Like he goes to the DMV and like he, you know, he goes to the DMV, and it's like DMV is like the classic like worst place on earth to be.

Moiz Ali 1:08:00 Sure.

Shaan Puri 1:08:00 And like he went in being like, "Nah, dude." He looked up the DMV on Yelp, it had two stars, and he's like, "I'm gonna have a five-star experience because I'm gonna be a five-star DMV participant. Uh, you know, and just watch what happens." So he like walked in with a little pep in his step, and he's smiling, and he makes a joke to somebody, and he realiz- and somebody's like, "Oh, you could- I'll just help you out over here." And everybody else is grumbling in line like, "Why is this guy getting to go up front?" She's like, "Don't mind them." And then she flirts with him, and like she, she hooks... And he's supposed to take the test, and she's like, "You know what? Like it's fine. You've been driving for a long time."

Moiz Ali 1:08:32 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 1:08:32 And she just gives him the thing, and he's like walks out and he's like, "Damn, if I could do it at the DMV-

Moiz Ali 1:08:37 That's so awesome

Shaan Puri 1:08:37 ... I can do it anywhere," right?

Moiz Ali 1:08:38 Yeah. That's awesome.

Shaan Puri 1:08:39 Like, he's like, I'm... He's like, "I wasn't always this way." He's like, "Dude, I was depressed for a while. My dad died, and I used to be bitter about him for X, Y, Z," and he's like, he's like, "You know, I used to be the guy, like I didn't wanna come out from the covers 'cause I just wasn't looking forward to my day. Like, you know, you d- if you looked at me, you'd just see like a blanket and two eyeballs 'cause I just didn't wanna get out of bed." And he's not saying this as a motivational talk 'cause he doesn't, he's not a motivational speaker. It's just like he's my personal trainer. I just happen to hear these stories. So when I heard this, I was like, "Okay, this dude is winning." The reason I want this money, this family, this, all these things, 'cause I wanna feel good. This dude just feels good on auto- Like he feels good no matter-

Moiz Ali 1:09:13 Yeah

Shaan Puri 1:09:13 ... what situation you put him in. So that's like an invincibility, right? Like he is unconditionally feeling good. So that's the guy I started to admire, and then I started to pattern myself after things that he was... Any time I noticed he did something different than me or my friends or the people around me, I like took special note of that and like would lean into trying that out as a new experience to see, you know, is that part of what makes him, him?

Moiz Ali 1:09:36 That's really interesting, uh, and a great story. And, um, you know, for a long... I, I feel like everyone I've admired, I've just been... It, it's almost like, uh, sex, where I'm just automatically attracted to that person.

Shaan Puri 1:09:49 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 1:09:49 And it's not even conscious. Like I just get an erection when, uh, you know, I hear about Tom Brady 'cause I'm like, wow, that guy is awesome and really good at what he does, and he's this ultimate competitor and wants to win. Um, and I never reali- I never even thought that you could choose who you admire. I just assumed it was like, you know, your sexuality, where you're like, are you attracted to this person? It's like comes from here and not here.

Shaan Puri 1:10:11 [laughs] Yeah. Actually, maybe that is true. I think there's some truth to what you said. Uh, but like in the same way that like we don't all go try to marry porn stars, like there's a certain point where you're like-

Moiz Ali 1:10:22 Yeah

Shaan Puri 1:10:22 ... what really matters to- what, what do I actually want? And it's like-

Moiz Ali 1:10:26 Yeah

Shaan Puri 1:10:26 ... well, there's this initial thing, this physical attraction, which is important. Uh, but then like actually I now know it feels really good to have somebody who's caring, and thoughtful, and like whatever, like I can trust.

Moiz Ali 1:10:36 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 1:10:37 And, and the, the things that are like slightly below the surface that like you're like, "Oh, I actually, now that I know about it, now that I've felt it, I'm like those are super important." I just, you know, it's just less primal than like the physical attraction, I guess.

Moiz Ali 1:10:50 Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point. Um, I've not done a good job of admiring people that I know really well. I've only know, like, you know, I admire people that I just hear about their competitiveness and their instinct to win, and I'm gonna think about that and try to do a better job of that.

Shaan Puri 1:11:04 Uh, your brother's like this. Your brother's another person I chose to like admire 'cause I was like th- he's also, your brother's also like in a good mood pretty much all the time.

Moiz Ali 1:11:12 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 1:11:12 Um, I, I've, I've never seen him like, I've never seen him either like in low energy. Like I've never seen him-

Moiz Ali 1:11:20 Yeah

Shaan Puri 1:11:20 ... just kind of like on autopilot, the switch is off.

Moiz Ali 1:11:23 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 1:11:23 And then also, like even when he's like, like I've never seen him defeated either. Um, so-

Moiz Ali 1:11:29 [laughs] Yeah.

Shaan Puri 1:11:30 So, you know, those are... So, so, you know, when I've seen him I'm like he walks into... Like when your brother walks into the room, like he s- he unconsciously goes, "All right," and it's like-

Moiz Ali 1:11:39 What's g- yeah

Shaan Puri 1:11:40 ... he's expecting like the parade to start. And I'm like, "Bro, this is just a bakery." But he's like, "All right, what are you doing? What are you eating? Oh, is that good? All right." And like it's not that he's, he's not like Mr. Smooth socially, but his like will to have a good time or like to have the experience like in its fullest actually like imposes its will on everybody else. Everybody has to participate at that point 'cause they're like, "Uh, yeah, it's a croissant. Y- you wanna try it? Oh, you know what? You should actually do this." And it's like he forces the good time out of the, the average because he just literally walks in, he's like, "All right, what are we doing?" Or he'll be like, "Let's win." And I'm like, "Let's win what? We're not even like playing anyth-..." Like, okay, I have to like rise to your level or I have to stop being friends with you because, uh, that's just the way you're approaching things, and like either that's just I'm out or I gotta figure out how to be in, and b- being in kinda means like being on and not just being like ho-hum about, about life, you know?

Moiz Ali 1:12:36 Yeah. Yeah, I've chosen to stop being friends with him as a result of that. [laughs]

Shaan Puri 1:12:39 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 1:12:40 No, i- in reality, I actually admire him as well. And, uh, I know we're, you know, we were at, uh, we were in Texas, uh, for like Mother's Day. It was my father's birthday two weeks ago. And, um, someone had gone to Cos- I think my sister had gone to Costco and bought like, you know, some cases of water and like watermelons. And I got home, and she's like, "Hey, Moiz, can you get this stuff out of the car? It's like heavy and like, you know, uh, I, I, I don't wanna do it." And I was like, "Why do you have Solomon? He's been at home all day."

Shaan Puri 1:13:06 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 1:13:06 And she's like, "He never does anything."

Shaan Puri 1:13:08 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 1:13:09 Like, "He will not lift a finger for this kind of stuff." And I was like, "This is why this guy's always in a good mood. No one asks him anything-

Shaan Puri 1:13:15 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 1:13:15 ... that like, you know, is, uh, not enjoyable because they know he's already said no to it so often that it, it's not e- like, you know, it's not something that's asked or e- expected of him any longer."

Shaan Puri 1:13:25 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 1:13:25 So that's why he's always in a good mood. Uh, but it is a lot of fun to hang out with him. Like I, and, you know, I've hung out with him, uh, often enough to see both sides of that. When he's like excited and like the energy comes and, and, you know, it certainly lifts me up, and times where he's like more analytical and he's like, "Let's look into this," and, "Does this make sense?" Or more like, you know, um, I remember one time when Tanika was struggling- W- I was in San Francisco, and he's like, "We have a new strategy, the whole business, where instead of creating our own iPhone games, we're gonna license the intellectual property of others. What do you think of this?" This is like a bet the company move. And, you know, I had no idea. I was a lawyer and 22 and didn't know anything. Um, but I was like, I could, I could get the real sense of like, it's not just pure optimism. There is a sense of reality there, and that also, like, helped me understand him a lot more, too.

Shaan Puri 1:14:12 Yeah, he said something about you that I thought was a baller line that I've, I've reused many times, which was, uh, I, I don't even know if this is the real thing, but this is now the, the, the legend of it, which was when you went into the deodorant business, somebody was like, "Hey," Moiz's like, "Do you even know anything about the deodorant business or, like, about deodorant?" And you were like, "No, I know nothing about deodorant, but in six months, I'm gonna know everything there is to know about deodorant. And like, that's, that's enough for me to go. I, I can start this. I don't need to, like, think of myself as some expert." I've used that so many times. Is that a true one?

Moiz Ali 1:14:41 Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Shaan Puri 1:14:43 Yeah.

Moiz Ali 1:14:43 That was definitely true. I remember who it was, too, actually. It was the husband of one of my close friends who's like, "You don't know anything." I was like, "I use it, and I'll be an expert in six months. Give it... Wait, uh, give me six months."

Shaan Puri 1:14:52 And like, that is-

Moiz Ali 1:14:52 And it was really-

Shaan Puri 1:14:53 That's an amazing attitude to have about anything. It's like, yeah, of course. I, I don't know anything, and like, give me six months, I can be pretty, like, I can be pretty much an expert at anything if you give me six months of obsession. And your-

Moiz Ali 1:15:03 I think that's true with everyone. Sorry, go ahead.

Shaan Puri 1:15:05 Your brother had some that were like this, 'cause I started writing down these traits. I was like, there's a, um, a what I call is like y- you know, sometimes you have a speaker system. You turn it up to level 10, and you're like, "Oh, that's pretty loud. It's bumping." And then you, like, get in someone's car, and it's almost like they got, they... Theirs goes to 14, and you're like, "God, I can't hear anything. I'm deaf out of two, like out of my right ear because, like, why is your shit so loud?" But you're like, "Okay, at least I know what loud is now." I have experienced loud. Even if I don't ever want my speaker to be this intense, like, I now know the level of intensity that exists because I just thought 10 was the max before. And like, that's what your brother did. Like, we invested in a company together, and they were kind of fucking up, and I was like, "Dude, can you... I've been trying to help these guys. Can you help me help them?" Like, he's like, "Yeah, great. Let's..." Like, "All right, let's win." And he gets on the call, he does his clap, and he's like... And they're, you know, they're kind of defeated, and he's like, "Okay, so well, let's raise all this money. You're trying to raise money. Let's raise the money. Like, let's look at the deck." And they, like, put out the deck, and it was, like, awful. And he's like, "Okay, so this is bad. Um, but let's fix it." Like, okay, so he, he, he rattled off. He's like, "Slide three," and he's like super detailed, right? It's not just, like, general rah, rah. He's like, "Slide three, that chart, it makes me think this. You need to flip the numbers to be like v- visualize it this way, like this example here on Google Images." And he did that for, like, this super detailed thing right away, and I was like, whoa. And then he was like, "All right," um, they're like, "Wow, thank you so much. This feedback's been so helpful." He's like, "Great, um, how long do you think it'll take you to, to do this, like, to make these changes?" And they're like, "Uh, I don't know. Hope- I'm gonna work on it today. Like, you know, I know it's super important, so I'm gonna work on it today." He's like, "Great. It's t- noon now. Let's talk at 5:00." And then like-

Moiz Ali 1:16:41 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 1:16:41 ... "Can you just..." He's like, "Send me a standing calendar invite for 5:00 PM every day for the next seven days until this deck is amazing." And he's like, "Let's just keep doing this, right? Like, you said it was super helpful, right? So let's just keep doing this." And I was like, dude, I wouldn't have had the balls to tell any company I invested in, like, let's meet again in three hours. And it wasn't, like, forced. It like, I can't... Even now when I'm saying it, it's not coming out the same way where it was like, "Great, let's do this, and like, let's just shorten the time span, right? Like, let's just cut all the fluff. Okay, so you'll make these changes. It'll take you a couple hours. Let's meet again." And I was like, I've never done two meetings with the same person in one day. So then I do... I was like, oh shit, I just found out my knob wasn't even at 10. It was at 7. And like, this is what 12 feels like, and he, we did it every day for five days straight until the deck was amazing. We would meet twice a day with these people. By the end of it-

Moiz Ali 1:17:27 Wow

Shaan Puri 1:17:27 ... they hated us, but, like, the deck was so mu- Like, the whole pitch was, like, the whole business was different basically by the end-

Moiz Ali 1:17:32 Yeah

Shaan Puri 1:17:32 ... 'cause it's like usually when a pitch is bad, it's like actually the business is kind of bad. And, um, and so o- once I saw that, I was like, whoa, the Ali brothers, they function at, like, a different... Like, they have a different level 12 that, like, uh, I like to see, and I'm sharing this on the pod because there's people out there who the, all the people around them, they've never seen, like, what 12 looks like. And I think you guys do this, and that's, like, my favorite thing about you guys.

Moiz Ali 1:17:58 That's awesome. Uh, I'm glad that that worked out. And yeah, he j- look, he has this insane ability to get the most out of people and, like, uh, without them feeling like it's an ex- Like, without the, without him forcing it upon you. Like, he would do this when I was running Native, and he'd be like, "How can you make this deodorant better than Dove and Secret?" And I'm like, this guy has an $8 billion R&D budget.

Shaan Puri 1:18:19 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 1:18:19 I've got 80 bucks. I can't do this. And he's like, "Here are five things that you can do that, like, you know..." And he'll just, even though the f- like, three of those things will be outrageous, um, he'll be like, "Go and find a new ingredient that'll work." And I'm like, what am I supposed to, you know, dig and find a new element in the-

Shaan Puri 1:18:33 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 1:18:34 ... periodic table of elements? But, like, two of those things will open up my mind in a way to be like, you know what? I'm not trying, I'm not focusing on the right problem here, and I gotta stop thinking about retention and customer service and all this other stuff that matters but will matter later on more. Right now, this is my problem, and forget everything else, and, um, it's really humbling to be around that. Like, whenever I'm around him, I'm always more jazzed about business and my business. Um, and like, you know, I think we've seen enough where we understand what the problems are right away. Like, I'm in some of these board meetings, and I'm like, why are we talking about... Like, you know, I was in a board meeting a couple weeks ago. All we did was talk about fundraising, and I'm like, this is a waste of my time and your time. Either you're gonna get this check or you're not gonna get this check from this one guy. Stop begging him. Like, move on. Why don't we talk about the business and see, hey, what's working and what's not? Make a better business and the dollars will follow. Stop wasting time here. And, and that's what, like, it's... So much of this is experience, and I had no idea that it would be experience. And I think about this all the time. I remember when I was at Na- when I was at, at P&G, my boss who ran deodorants quit. And I was like, "Oh, he's quitting. I hope he does better." And I didn't realize all of the things that would happen to me that, um, you know, now were super clear. Like, he had made all these promises about keeping Native independent and amazing and, you know, not, uh, not, like, forcing his will upon the company, and he had protected me from P&G. The next guy never made any of those promises, and so he didn't really feel like he had to do any of those things, and I completely respect that. But I didn't even understand what was gonna happen when the guy told me he was quitting. And now I'm like, "Okay, when, you know, headcount changes, this is what's gonna happen. A new sheriff is gonna come in, into town. He's gonna bring in his own minions to work in the places that he likes, and you either fall into line or fall out, like, you know, fa- uh, leave the group." And, uh, I didn't understand that. And so much of this is experience, and once you go through those, go through these things, it's super helpful. And, you know, he's had th- he's had so much more experience than I have and he's been, he's a little bit older than me, and so he's had it earlier than I have, and so he's been this great sounding board for this kind of stuff.

Shaan Puri 1:20:33 You, uh, you tweeted something out that was great. You were like, "Here's my, um, my project status, like, uh, uh, here's, like, my, my, my Excel sheet I use for all my real estate deals." And it was just, like, status of it. It's like, you know, um, I, I don't even remember what it was exactly, but it was, like, sent, um, reply received, waiting for d- uh, paperwork, um, follow-up needed. And then there was one that was just like-

Moiz Ali 1:20:54 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 1:20:54 ... I'm unsure, I don't know what the hell's going... Like, I don't know what the fuck-

Moiz Ali 1:20:57 [laughs] That's right, yeah

Shaan Puri 1:20:57 ... I don't know what's going on. I don't know where it's at. Like, I don't know why it's not moving.

Moiz Ali 1:21:00 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 1:21:01 And I was like, "That's the status that I've needed in every project I've ever done." 'Cause my, my... I always have, you know, a tracker for anything I'm doing. I'm like, all right, it's either, like, I sent it. I'm waiting for reply. I, like, got the reply, now I need to, like, reply to them. I need to analyze it, I need to sign, I need to wire the money, I need to do whatever. But, like, so often, after, like, 24 hours, every s- whatever status it was in, it's now slipping towards the black hole of I don't know what's holding it back from just finishing now.

Moiz Ali 1:21:29 Yeah, yeah.

Shaan Puri 1:21:29 And I think that's what you guys do really well, which is actually any initiative in any project that's like, all right, we're trying to, you know, like, get more profitable. It's like, well, we have this big plan and we're doing it, and then, like, surely b- just slowly but surely, like a month in, it's like, what happened to that whole profitability thing? Are we doing it, are we not? Like, and it's like-

Moiz Ali 1:21:44 Yeah

Shaan Puri 1:21:44 ... everything has slipped into I'm unsure what the fuck's going on, and I need this, like, piercing clarity back. And so, A, I think that was an amazing little tidbit in there of, like-

Moiz Ali 1:21:53 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 1:21:53 ... I need that, I need that status, 'cause most things are-

Moiz Ali 1:21:56 Yeah

Shaan Puri 1:21:56 ... actually in that, that bucket.

Moiz Ali 1:21:57 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 1:21:58 And I need to get them the hell out of that bucket, but I had to name it that to, like, acknowledge what the heck was going on.

Moiz Ali 1:22:03 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 1:22:03 The second is, uh, another example of the relentlessness thing. Uh, level 12, level 14 on the volume scale. Like, I showed your brother this deal that I was inve- I wanted to invest in, and he was like, "Oh, this is, like, looks great. Let's like, let's do it." And I was like, "Okay, cool." And he's like, then every day he would text me, like, "What's going on with that deal?" And I was like, "Oh yeah, like, uh, no change in... Like, I emailed the guy. He said he's just, he said he's finalizing stuff. He'll get back to me by Friday." It's, like, Tuesday. So Wednesday, he's like, [thumps] "Yo, what's up with the deal?" And I'm like, "Uh, I think it's still the Friday thing. I haven't emailed him again. Do you think I should?" He's like, "Yeah, let's email him again and tell him we love this and we wanna be involved." And I was like, "Oh, is that, like, a thing people do? Like, that's, just, let's kind of fluff him up a bit?" He's like, "Yeah, let's just keep it hot." And I was like, "Okay, cool." Then Wednesday, Thursday, he's like, "I just feel like we need to do something." He's like, eventually it got to the point where he's like, "Uh, what's the guy's bank? Let's just wire him a million dollars." And I was like, "W- we haven't signed anything." He's like, "Well, once we wire him the money, he's not gonna wire, wire it back. So, like, we're gonna secure-

Moiz Ali 1:22:59 [laughs]

Shaan Puri 1:22:59 ... our allocation in this deal. Just, like, let's just send him a million dollars."

Moiz Ali 1:23:03 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 1:23:03 "And then he'll kinda be forced to, like, finalize things with us rather than keep us in this, like, limbo stage. And maybe in the end he'll say, 'Hey, I can't do the full amount. You can only do a quarter of the amount because I got all this other investor interest,' 'cause we know that's what's going on here." And again, I was like, "Whoa, didn't know that's an option of, like, you can just wire the guy the money. I guess that kinda makes sense." [laughs] And, like, uh, these are very, very valuable, uh, little tidbits of, like-

Moiz Ali 1:23:27 Yeah

Shaan Puri 1:23:27 ... to a- like, a- another example somebody gave us, they were like, it was like, "What's your open rate on your push notifications for your app?" I was like, "Oh, it's like 30%. I think that's pretty good." I was, it was like 20%. I was like, "I think that's really good." Industry average is, like, eight. We're at 20. I was patting myself on the back. I was feeling happy. And he's like, "What do you think the theoretical max is?" I was like, "What?" And he's like, he's like, "What do you think, like, theore-" He, okay, he's like, "It's not literally 100. You're not gonna get 100 p- percent of people-"

Moiz Ali 1:23:50 Sure

Shaan Puri 1:23:50 ... " 'cause some people have uninstalled your app and they have notifications off. Like, what do you think is, like... " And I was like, "I don't know what you mean." He's like, "I think I could get 50% of people to open a, a push notification. Let me just, like, see." So he sent a push for his app, and his app was, like, had, it was, like, a social app, like you post photos, and he just r- sent a push notification that said, um, "Your Uber is arriving outside." Um, like, "Please, like, open this to, to meet it at the do-," like, whatever. And he, like, sent the thing that was like, "Your Uber is arriving with your package. Swipe to, like, open it up." And he saw, like 55% of people open that thing. He's like, "Okay, that's, like, the juiciest I have to know what's in this push notification." He's like, "That's now the max."

Moiz Ali 1:24:28 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 1:24:28 He's like, "Anything we wanna..." [laughs] He's like, "Now we know. So actually our 20% is not on 100, it's on, like, 55%." Is it?

Moiz Ali 1:24:35 Sure.

Shaan Puri 1:24:35 "And so everything we do is from here." And I just remember just thinking, "Wow, some people in Silicon Valley are, like, maniacs." Like, they will push the boundaries in ways that I just really haven't thought of, and every time I saw someone break, like, an invisible wall that I had just had up, I'm like, "Oh, fuck, the game is so much more interesting than I realized, and, like, these people play without these walls. Oh, this is awesome. Like, what, what else can I do?" [laughs]

Moiz Ali 1:24:58 It's so refreshing to see that kind of stuff when you're like, "I don't know why I thought this wall existed," and now that it doesn't, it makes so much sense that it doesn't exist. Like, just break th- some, it required some genius to break through it, and now that he's done it, it seems so obvious. Uh, whenever Salman and I look at, like, deals, we're alwa- uh, like, one of our, if our investments are, like, uh, you know, raising a new round, we're always like, we wanna either, uh, buy the busin- we, I wanna buy the whole business-

Shaan Puri 1:25:22 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 1:25:23 ... run the business, or sell my shares, all of my shares. I want some action.

Shaan Puri 1:25:27 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 1:25:28 So I can't... Like, these are the three options.

Shaan Puri 1:25:30 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 1:25:30 I'll buy the whole thing, I'll run the business, you quit, or get, take all my shares and get out of here.

Shaan Puri 1:25:34 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 1:25:35 But I don't want nothing. I can't do nothing here. And, uh, it's a lot of fun to, like, it's a lot of fun to be involved and have that action. Um- Uh, but, uh, you know, it makes it so that you admire a certain group of people certainly.

Shaan Puri 1:25:48 [laughs] Yeah, exactly.

Moiz Ali 1:25:50 For better or worse.

Shaan Puri 1:25:50 Um, a- and by the way, this is a good example. I admire that Uber push notification. Some people are like, "How unethical and weird," and like, um, you know, "Why would you do that?" And like, you know, if I told that, uh, and I have done this many times, like I've told my designer, "Hey, let's try this," and he looks at me like I'm Bernie Madoff saying, "Let's take all their money and run away." Like, you know, they think I'm evil when I'm actually just running an exper- To me this is like an awesome experiment, and it's because I admire people who did some of these different growth hacky things that are like just unusual thought experiments that I'm like, "Oh, y- you, the way you think is how I wanna think." Uh, but not everybody, [laughs] not everybody wants that or even thinks it's good. Like, they think it's bad, [laughs] which is like... But knowing that is also where you figure out your lane. You're like, "Oh, that's my lane. These things I think are easy and fun and good other people think are hard, boring, or like are, are like evil." And I'm like, "Oh, okay. Cool. I, I now know what differentiates me versus anybody [laughs] else."

Moiz Ali 1:26:49 There was this one great story at, um, when I was at Native. We had bought, we had these, uh, uh, end caps for Target, like basically like shelving that was gonna sit at the end of a, an aisle, and they come in filled with all the deodorant. Like, you know, we ship them, and all they have to do is take the box off and it's filled. And, uh, so we sent them to Target, and, uh, nobody could find them. Like, you know, there were a bunch of Targets that were like, "We don't have this." And so we're like, "Okay, what should we do?" And so some P&G person was like, "Okay, what we have to do is we need to call up the P&G Target team in Minneapolis. They're gonna call up Target. Target's gonna call their distribution facility, and then th- we're gonna go all the way back around, and we'll find out where they are because we've already shipped them." And so, um, someone on our team was like, "This doesn't make any sense. This is 15 phone calls. This is what you guys ordinarily do." And they're like, "This is the only way to do it." So we Googled Target distribution facility in like New England, found their phone number, ca- randomly cold called them, and we're like, "Hey, we work at Native. Uh, I think you've got a, a bunch of these end caps. A bunch of stores don't have it. We shipped them to you. Do you know where they are?" And they're like, "L- give us 20 minutes to look in the facility." They called us back and they're like, "Yeah, we got them. We're gonna ship them out in the next truck." And that's how we solved the problem. And like, you know, to, to the P&G-ers, it had never occurred to directly call the facility and to Google for that number. They're like, "We have to make 15 phone calls and play secretary on the way back." And like, you know, their, their mind was blown. And for us we're like, "This is the most obvious thing to do, call the person where the problem lies." And, um, it's, it's, it's crazy to see where those walls are, and it's so amazing to break through them and be like, "This is the way things should be done moving forward."

Shaan Puri 1:28:20 Can I give you one of those as well? When I was-

Moiz Ali 1:28:22 Yeah, please

Shaan Puri 1:28:22 ... when we acquired like Twitch, Twitch is an Amazon-owned company.

Moiz Ali 1:28:24 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 1:28:24 So it had like the Twitch bureaucracy plus the Amazon bureaucracy. Like, there's layers, you know?

Moiz Ali 1:28:28 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 1:28:28 And, and it wasn't all bad, but there was certain things you'd run into. It's like this pocket. It's like, "Oh, no. I'm stuck in molasses. What is hap- wh- where did I step that like got me stuck?" And one of them was for a period of time, I believe, there was something with the performance marketing where it's like, "So how much are we spending on like, you know, getting, uh, like installs?" And they're like, "Uh, you know, this amount." I'm like, "Cool." Like, "What's the cost?" They're like, "Well, we don't really have the tracking." I'm like, "We don't have tracking? That's like, you know, the basic." They're like, "Well, we don't wanna install the Facebook Pixel because Amazon doesn't really necessarily want... Like, we have to get approval before Facebook because when Facebook Pixel's in your app, they have your data. They're kind of a competitor to Twitch and to Amazon. So like, you know, there's some sensitivity. You have to get that done. Like, so we just spend. We don't know any..." "We don't know the, we don't have the Pixel installed? Like you c- I didn't even know you could run an ad without the Pixel."

Moiz Ali 1:29:13 [laughs] Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Shaan Puri 1:29:13 And they, they were like, "Yeah." And I was like, "How long has it..." They're like, "Yeah, it's been on legal's desk for like a year." And I was like, "Oh my God." And so [laughs] I was like, "Oh, wow." So it's like we can... And so my job was, at that time I was like, "Oh, dude, we're getting our ass kicked in Brazil, and like nobody in the company's even paying attention. Like, we need to, we need to like win in Brazil, and like w- what happened? We used to be number one, and we're slipping because like mobile gaming took off, and we don't do mobile gaming." So I was like, "We need to win." And, um, and so it was w- we built a scraper first to like see how fast the competitors were growing 'cause nobody in the company would do anything unless you had a case for how, like mu- how big the market was. So I was like, "Well, look at the competitors." They're like, "Yeah, but like we don't know." And I'm like, "All right. We'll, we'll build a scraper," which is like, startups do this all the time, but at a big company-

Moiz Ali 1:29:56 Yeah

Shaan Puri 1:29:56 ... it wasn't like super, super kosher to do that, but I was like, "All right. Whatever. We'll, we'll do it till they tell us to stop." And the second thing was I was like, "Oh, we don't have this Pixel, so we can't like run these ads." So I was talki- I just went on a phone call with this guy who was the number one streamer in Brazil that we had just like paid a bunch of money to like come onto our platform, and I was like, "How would you get a bunch of m- people to download our app, uh, if I can't do Facebook, I can't do marketing like paid ads?" And he was like, um, he's like, "Oh, easy, boss." And he's saying this, the translator's like, "He's saying, uh, it's easy, boss. You know, here's what you need to do." He's like, "Give me 10 iPhones." I was like, "What?" And he's like, "Buy me 10 iPhones." I was like, "What for? I c- uh, [laughs] you know, like I don't know how to do that." And he's like, "I'm gonna give away iPhones. iPhones are like gold bars in Brazil. If I just say I'm giving away iPhones on my Twitch stream, everybody download Twitch." And, you know, sure enough, I get the, I just like f- kinda like bootleg a way to get the guy gift cards so he could buy iPhones. And, um, he buys 10 iPhones, and he does this stream where he's like, "I'm giving away iPhones." He's like, "I'm not giving away the first one until we have a, like we have 10,000 people watching my stream. Go share this. Text your cousin. Text your mom. Tell them to get on this. I'm not giving it away until then." And then, uh, and he drum up, he had, he bro- he like ha- he was the number one streamer on Twitch that day. He brought in himself like hundreds of thousands of downloads, like the mo- biggest download-

Moiz Ali 1:31:10 Wow

Shaan Puri 1:31:10 ... spike that we had had just by giving away like, you know, f- we ended up giving away like five iPhones. And it's like, so for five grand basically we did like more installs in a proven way 'cause they were all coming directly off his link to his channel. And I was like, and people, uh, and that's when I knew like Twitch might not be the place 'cause like I told this story, and I'm like, "I feel like I slayed the dragon, and I'm dragging this carcass into the boardroom," [laughs] like the, in the ninth floor, the top floor.

Moiz Ali 1:31:36 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 1:31:36 The, the mega boardroom where all the c- the execs sit. I feel like I'm dragging this carcass in being like, you know, "Are you not entertained?" You know? And, uh, people were like, "Oh," like, you know, "that's interesting." Uh, and they just sort of moved on, and [laughs] I was like, "Wait, we just discovered this like incredible growth hack to like get a bunch of downloads. G- and we did this thing out of the ordinary. Like, you know, can we get a little love here?" And, uh, when I got no love, I was like, "Okay. Um, this is not the place for me 'cause if this was my company and somebody did this, I'd be like, 'Look, I don't know if this was good strategy long-term or a bad one. It's really irrelevant. The fact that you did this, we need to tell every team in the company that like something like this is possible in your department. Like, don't get stuck in the molasses. Like, find something and try something that works.' And like these guys have tried nine things that failed. T- tell them, tell them about all nine, and then tell them the one that worked." And like I would've gone on a roadshow for that, and that's how I knew like, okay, what type of company do I need to be at is one that like-

Moiz Ali 1:32:32 Sure

Shaan Puri 1:32:33 ... celebrates that type of thing.

Moiz Ali 1:32:34 That's a pretty amazing story, and like really amazing that this guy who's in Brazil is like, "I know how to get downloads from this stream." Like, giving away iPhones and get people to download it, that's brilliant of him, and brilliant that you found him-

Shaan Puri 1:32:47 [laughs]

Moiz Ali 1:32:47 ... and like harnessed it and were like, "Fuck all this red tape. I'm gonna figure it out." That's awesome. What an incredible story.

Shaan Puri 1:32:53 Yeah. That's what... Finally I'm get- finally I'm getting the love I needed.

Moiz Ali 1:32:56 Yeah.

Shaan Puri 1:32:56 Uh, I've been waiting two years-

Moiz Ali 1:32:57 That's an amazing story

Shaan Puri 1:32:58 ... to just, to just get the, "Daddy, I'm proud of you," uh, "Son, I'm proud of you," moment, but I, I got it now. All right, man. Sorry I took you so far over the time limit.

Moiz Ali 1:33:05 No worries.

Shaan Puri 1:33:05 Thank you for coming on.

Moiz Ali 1:33:07 Yeah, appreciate it.

Shaan Puri 1:33:07 And, and, and taking it like, like a champ.

Moiz Ali 1:33:09 Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, appreciate it.

Shaan Puri 1:33:10 Where should people find you? Twitter is probably the best spot, right?

Moiz Ali 1:33:13 Yeah, Twitter. I'm @MoizAli.

Shaan Puri 1:33:16 @MoizAli. All right. Perfect. Thanks, man.

Moiz Ali 1:33:18 Perfect. Thanks, Jon. Talk to you soon. [upbeat music]