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CHAPTERS
- 0:08 – 4:24
Pieter's Closed DMs and Sam's Networking Trick
Pieter admits he was nervous about the show, and Shaan shares Sam's text-message networking habit. Pieter then explains why he closed his DMs and avoids scheduling calls, prioritizing time with friends, health and a calmer life.
- •Pieter sees the show as one step below Joe Rogan for business
- •Shaan describes Sam's casual "let's hang" text style that works even on a CEO he knows
- •Pieter compares cold DMs to being a hot girl in a club, with people wanting something without investing
- •He closed his DMs and wrote a blog post explaining his daily routine after people got angry
- 4:24 – 11:44
Who Pieter Is: Businesses, Open Revenue and Radical Honesty
Shaan and Sam introduce Pieter's public revenue stats and his portfolio of projects. Pieter explains how he began nomading in 2014, drew inspiration from indie founders, and why he is radically honest. He also describes his small contractor team and which businesses earn the most.
- •Nomad List, Remote OK and Rebase are the main earners, with Remote OK the largest
- •Pieter is the only full-time employee, supported by part-time contractors for support, moderation and DevOps
- •He was inspired by an indie developer who shared product revenue on his blog
- •He dislikes fake corporate culture after studying business administration
- 11:44 – 19:51
The Red Pill Flywheel and Building Fast with PHP and jQuery
Shaan lays out his model of the solopreneur: a red-pill belief, content, authority, then businesses feeding one flywheel. Pieter confirms it and says his start was organic, building for himself. He then defends his simple PHP and jQuery stack for its fast feedback loop.
- •Shaan's formula: red pill, content, authority, then businesses that feed the flywheel
- •Pieter began blogging about nomading for his mom, and the posts took off on Hacker News
- •He wanted to make remote work more reputable and move away from the shady side of the early nomad scene
- •He builds projects as "user zero", such as the inflation chart site
- •He uses PHP and jQuery because the fast iteration loop makes customers happy
- 19:51 – 24:09
Valuation, Selling and Why Nomad List Is Staying
The conversation turns to what the businesses are worth and whether Pieter would sell. He says bootstrapped multiples are too low, that most acquisition talks bounce off, and that Nomad List is a work of love he doesn't trust a buyer with.
- •The open pages show profit margins and a valuation based on a multiple
- •Pieter has been through sale processes but sold nothing, and says about 80% of acquisitions bounce off
- •He would consider selling only at around 10X profit
- •Remote OK has about 94% pre-tax margin and runs heavily automated
- •He fears buyers would ruin Nomad List, his legacy
- 24:09 – 28:20
A 10-Year Overnight Success and Surfing Waves
Shaan highlights Pieter's revenue chart and the long grind behind sudden success. Pieter says he did not foresee COVID's boost to remote work, and that movements start with freaks and are only surfable, not controllable.
- •Revenue stayed under about a million until 2020, then jumped to roughly 2.5 million
- •Pieter predicted a billion remote workers by 2030 in 2015 and was mocked
- •Growth looks like run-ups followed by plateaus
- •Movements like crypto and music genres begin with a few early adopters
- •Pieter likens life and pivoting to surfing waves
- 28:20 – 33:29
Thinking Bigger Than Indie Hacker Widgets
Pieter criticizes the indie hacker scene for thinking small and explains why few multimillion-revenue founders stay bootstrapped. Shaan brings up Pieter's tweet that a $20K per month app already makes you a millionaire, and Pieter agrees it is approachable with high margins and automation.
- •Pieter says small widgets are fine as a start but should grow feature by feature
- •Founders passing a million in revenue usually raise VC, and Pieter calls himself the exception
- •A $20K per month app at a 4-5X multiple is a million-dollar asset
- •High automation and part-time contractors keep margins high
- •This path doesn't require winning the startup lottery
- 33:29 – 40:26
Brainstorm: Apartment Hotels, Furniture Rental and Slow Mads
Shaan asks for a business idea that could reach $20K a month. Pieter proposes serviced apartment hotels for remote workers, and Sam describes wanting to rent furniture. Pieter argues that digital nomads are really slow movers, creating a market for long-term products.
- •Pieter describes apartment hotels with kitchens and daily service as an alternative to hotel rooms and Airbnb
- •He spends about 2-3.5K a month on them and thinks demand will grow with remote work
- •Sam wants a fully furnished rental, and Pieter calls furniture rental a real business
- •Average stay is about seven months, so Pieter prefers the term "slow mad"
- •Education and homeschooling are other opportunities for remote families
- 40:26 – 47:24
Where Pieter Invests: ETFs, Asia and Shaan's Stock Sale
Sam asks what Pieter does with his money. He holds ETFs, Asia exposure and crypto, and spends only about 4-5K a month. Shaan explains why he sold most of his stocks, and the talk moves to the Western blind spot on China.
- •Pieter holds Vanguard S&P 500 ETFs, Asia investments, Bitcoin and Ethereum
- •His S&P 500 ETF outperformed his own stock picks over two years
- •Shaan sold 70-80% of his stocks to avoid margin-call stress and peace-of-mind reasons
- •Pieter says the West has a blind spot about Asia and China
- •The Jack Ma disappearance comes up as a cautionary note
- 47:24 – 59:16
Free Calendar, Low Spending and Minimalist Living
Pieter describes his unplanned days living near friends in Portugal. He explains why he deliberately avoids lifestyle inflation, spending mostly on food and experiences. The group trades stories of extreme minimalists, including Sam Corcos and an Australian traveler, and Pieter lists what he owns.
- •Pieter lives near nomad friends in Portugal, codes, goes to the gym and sauna, and doesn't get bored
- •He avoids lifestyle inflation, citing golden handcuffs and research on adaptation to new purchases
- •His main spending priority is good food and experiences, and he flies business only long haul
- •Sam tells of Sam Corcos owning only a drawstring bag of belongings
- •Pieter owns very little, mainly a backpack, small suitcase, laptop and phone
- 59:16 – 1:02:26
Giving Economies, Derek Sivers and Pieter's Goals
They discuss raising kids with fewer possessions and the BuyNothing groups. Sam asks who Pieter admires, and he names Derek Sivers and describes wanting stable happiness, a family and sometimes feeling small next to Elon Musk.
- •Pieter says kids can be raised with thrift-store toys and secondhand clothes
- •Shaan describes a local giving circle, and Sam names the BuyNothing groups
- •Pieter admires Derek Sivers for his simple-life philosophy and writing
- •He wants stable happiness after past depression and anxiety
- •He wants to start a family and sometimes wonders if he should do something bigger like Elon Musk
- 1:02:26 – 1:07:27
Pets, Travel and a Growing Market
Sam asks how Pieter lives a nomadic life with animals. Pieter says he has no pets now but sees a large market for pet-friendly services, and the group discusses airline rules and dogs in profile photos.
- •Pieter stayed in a pet-friendly luxury apartment hotel in Bangkok with his cats
- •Sam and Shaan discuss the difficulty of flying with animals
- •Pieter predicts a growing market for pet travel among rich tech people without kids
- •Moving every six months is okay for pets, in his view
- •They joke about dog profile pictures as a growth hack
- 1:07:27 – 1:14:59
Complexity, Automated High-Ticket Sales and Sales Teams
Pieter says people underestimate how complex products are behind the scenes. He shows how Remote OK sells job bundles up to about 50K automatically via Stripe, and Sam argues that sales teams can create demand, while Pieter explains why he hasn't hired any.
- •Copycats can mimic appearance but not the edge cases underneath
- •Remote OK's bundle page lets companies buy discounted job posts and pay by card
- •Bundles are around 30% of revenue, with the largest purchase near 50K
- •Sam says a sales team surprisingly drummed up demand for him, as Squarespace's founder also found
- •Pieter fears managing salespeople and says automated checkout attracts easier customers
- 1:14:59 – 1:20:07
Transparency as Marketing and Closing Thoughts
Pieter says he wants to stress transparency, and Sam gives critiques using Buffer as an example and worrying about being a target. They discuss the commitment of YouTube and seasonal content before wrapping up.
- •Pieter says sharing ups and downs is a more wholesome way to do business
- •Sam notes Buffer's salary transparency was a shtick that may be hard to sustain, and raises security risks
- •Pieter admits his openness is a recurring marketing machine that is hard to stop
- •Both worry about the treadmill of YouTube, and Sam suggests doing seasons
- •Pieter shares his Twitter handle, levelsio
