A.R. Rahman: The Genius Who Took Indian Music Global | Nikhil Kamath | People by WTF | Ep 15

Speaker 0:00 [upbeat music]

A.R. Rahman 0:23 ...This compared to this profile shot.

Nikhil Kamath 0:27 There was something-

A.R. Rahman 0:31 PM shot, PM.

Nikhil Kamath 0:31 But this is the final stage. [upbeat music]

A.R. Rahman 0:46 Hello. Mr. Cha. Mm-hmm. Hi.

Nikhil Kamath 0:50 How are you?

A.R. Rahman 0:52 Good.

Nikhil Kamath 0:52 Thank you.

A.R. Rahman 0:52 Thank you for joining us.

Nikhil Kamath 0:53 Thank you.

A.R. Rahman 0:54 Okay.

Nikhil Kamath 0:56 She was telling me earlier-

A.R. Rahman 0:58 Put you under the bus now. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 0:59 [laughing] She doesn't speak much. You also don't speak much. [laughing]

A.R. Rahman 1:03 [laughing] I told you, right? I predicted, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:14 When you speak Tamil-

A.R. Rahman 1:16 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:16 ... I can understand it, 'cause-

A.R. Rahman 1:17 Oh.

Nikhil Kamath 1:17 -I'm also a South Indian.

A.R. Rahman 1:18 Oh!

Nikhil Kamath 1:19 And I've grown up all my life in Bangalore.

A.R. Rahman 1:23 Bangalore. So Kannadiga.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24 Kannadiga.

A.R. Rahman 1:24 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:25 Half Kannadiga, half Konkani. Dad is from this town near Udupi called Udyavar.

A.R. Rahman 1:31 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:31 And Mom is from Mysore. Have you been to Bangalore much?

A.R. Rahman 1:34 Yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:35 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:35 '80s. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:37 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 1:38 Quite a lot. I used to work for Kannada industry a little bit.

Nikhil Kamath 1:41 How is the Kannada industry?

A.R. Rahman 1:43 Kannada industry is now rocking, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:45 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:45 There was a dormant twenty years, nothing happened.

Nikhil Kamath 1:48 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:49 After the greats.

Nikhil Kamath 1:49 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:50 Now they just leaped.

Nikhil Kamath 1:52 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:53 I met, uh... I sometimes wish all of them. I call them on Zoom and wish, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 1:59 They're doing much better.

A.R. Rahman 1:59 Like Kantara, music composer-

Nikhil Kamath 2:01 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 2:02 Prashabh and everybody.

Nikhil Kamath 2:05 So you grew up in, uh, Chennai? Most of your life has been in Chennai?

A.R. Rahman 2:09 Most of the life in Chennai, yeah. I was born in Chennai. My father... Yes, he's work-- he used to work in the studios.

Nikhil Kamath 2:16 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 2:16 And then we, we are in the belly of the beast, near Kodambakkam.

Nikhil Kamath 2:20 Okay.

A.R. Rahman 2:21 Our house, where all the studios used to exist.

Nikhil Kamath 2:23 Yeah. So maybe we start by making you a little bit awkward and getting you to speak-

A.R. Rahman 2:30 Mm-hmm.

Nikhil Kamath 2:30 -about your life so far. Everybody knows you, and, uh, I'm a fan. I've heard so many of your songs from different eras, and I love them. I wish I could sing better, and then I would have, but I can't.

A.R. Rahman 2:46 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 2:46 My mother used to be a music teacher.

A.R. Rahman 2:48 Oh!

Nikhil Kamath 2:48 Classical Carnatic music, and they tried to teach us everything.

A.R. Rahman 2:53 [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 2:53 So I went to classes for, uh, guitar, uh, piano, flute, mandolin, everything.

A.R. Rahman 3:02 Oh!

Nikhil Kamath 3:03 But I discovered, after much effort, that I have zero talent.

A.R. Rahman 3:08 [chuckles] No, it's not about talent. It's about leaning in.

Nikhil Kamath 3:12 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 3:12 Never give up.

Nikhil Kamath 3:13 [gentle music]

Nikhil Kamath 3:18 Tell us a bit about your childhood. It feels like you're a... or from what I've heard, you were very introverted.

A.R. Rahman 3:26 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 3:27 And now you're more open to speaking, because, as you have said, your ability to articulate has gone up significantly.

A.R. Rahman 3:36 Mm-hmm.

Nikhil Kamath 3:37 What changed?

A.R. Rahman 3:38 Um, I think when I was growing up, I was-- went through all this, the death of my father, my grandmother, and then, um, conflicts, where I was just seeing trauma every day. Like, my mother was a single, very, very confident lady. She took all the pain.

Nikhil Kamath 4:06 At what age did Dad pass away?

A.R. Rahman 4:07 Um, nine.

Nikhil Kamath 4:08 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 4:10 And she had to go through, protect us from... And she was so strong that withstanding all the kind of humiliations, she single-handedly brought us up, right? Encouraging me to go into music. She decided for me that I should be in music, so I've told that, told that many times. And so, in a way, I felt like I should be clean, because I had three sisters, and me behaving in a certain way would also reflect what's coming back. And I was-- my whole childhood was with forty-year-old and fifty-year-old, and sixty-year-olds in the studio-

Nikhil Kamath 4:53 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 4:53 -playing music.

Nikhil Kamath 4:54 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 4:55 And I missed all the fun with friends and all that stuff at school. No college, but-

Nikhil Kamath 5:03 What year did you stop going to school?

A.R. Rahman 5:06 Fifteen, sixteen.

Nikhil Kamath 5:07 Mm, same, actually, me also.

A.R. Rahman 5:08 You also?

Nikhil Kamath 5:09 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 5:09 School is not just about education. It's about understanding humanity.

Nikhil Kamath 5:13 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 5:13 It's about seeing each other and getting to know the stories-

Nikhil Kamath 5:18 Mm

A.R. Rahman 5:18 ... and learning things from other kids, you know?

Nikhil Kamath 5:22 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 5:22 Their families are different. Um, that I missed, definitely.

Nikhil Kamath 5:27 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 5:27 But then I, I got the-- I was with the intelligent people in the studios, great musicians in the studio, which also inspired me to reach up to more musicality and play more stuff, and-

Nikhil Kamath 5:38 Your dad was a successful-

A.R. Rahman 5:40 He was... So the story is like, Dad lived in his, uh, in his house, father, mother's house, and both Mom and Dad, um, their clothes were thrown onto the streets. Said, "Get out of this house," from his family members. So he had to go search for a house, so he took a rented house....and then to get us a house, he worked day and night.

Nikhil Kamath 6:07 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 6:07 Worked in three different places at the same time. So that one story is that his health went very sick.

Nikhil Kamath 6:14 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 6:16 Because he-- Anyway, that's a dark-

Nikhil Kamath 6:19 Mm

A.R. Rahman 6:20 ...uh, side of my childhood memory.

Nikhil Kamath 6:23 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 6:24 That's why I never speak about my dad.

Nikhil Kamath 6:26 You have vivid memories of this, age nine?

A.R. Rahman 6:28 Yeah. Yeah, I think, uh, after that, to forget what the trauma, took ages, right?

Nikhil Kamath 6:37 And has that memory changed?

A.R. Rahman 6:39 Now it's changed, because I think he was such an inspiration, because every musician came from his, uh, troupe, whether it's a guitarist, a violin player, or... Because he had, he had given so much work to the musicians, because he was working three different places, and everybody used to adore him. Even if they're not talented, he will, "But you sit in the last row, take some money and go. It'll be good for your family, good for your education." Even people like, uh, world-class players like L. Subramaniam-

Nikhil Kamath 7:06 Mm

A.R. Rahman 7:07 ...had kind words to say. He shared with me, like, couple of years back. So even now, even today, that probably set the standard for me to where I should head as a human being, as a successor to him. And now my nephew, GV Prakash, is shining. He got, won the National Award twice.

Nikhil Kamath 7:26 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 7:26 He's a hero.

Nikhil Kamath 7:27 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 7:28 And my son, my daughters. Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 7:32 And how did that change you? Like, my dad passed away recently, last year.

A.R. Rahman 7:36 Oh, sorry.

Nikhil Kamath 7:37 No. How does it affect you first, and how does it change you later?

A.R. Rahman 7:42 It affects you because that's the only thing you, you have, right? Your parents.

Nikhil Kamath 7:48 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 7:49 Um, that's the only holding ground for you, the memories and what your dad is, what he represented or how he worked. And, um, so to everyone, your dad is your first hero.

Nikhil Kamath 8:02 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 8:04 Right? Your mother is the angel-

Nikhil Kamath 8:06 Mm

A.R. Rahman 8:07 ...who was a safe place to go.

Nikhil Kamath 8:11 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 8:11 The lap is the safe place to sleep, and that's why the respect for my mother or my father is still there. Same thing, so...

Nikhil Kamath 8:20 Did the position of your mother in your head change after your

Nikhil Kamath 8:25 father's demise?

A.R. Rahman 8:27 Yeah, my mother became like a entrepreneur. She took the equipments and started renting it out.

Nikhil Kamath 8:32 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 8:32 Everybody suggested that she should sell, -

Nikhil Kamath 8:34 Mm

A.R. Rahman 8:35 ...sell all the stuff, put it in the bank, get the interest, and she said, "No, no, my son will play."

Nikhil Kamath 8:39 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 8:40 "I'll keep my husband's stuff." And then she expanded it. She bought more keyboards for rental.

Nikhil Kamath 8:44 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 8:44 We used to rent it out for light music for studios.

Nikhil Kamath 8:48 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 8:48 So that was the income for, like, six, seven years, and then that stopped, because everybody started buying the equipments. That's when she said, "Now, it's not going to happen. You need to go and play."

Nikhil Kamath 8:56 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 8:57 "The equipment rental has gone down," and-

Nikhil Kamath 8:59 And you started writing jingles?

A.R. Rahman 9:01 No, I started playing keyboards for other composers.

Nikhil Kamath 9:04 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 9:04 Like Telugu composers, Kannada composers, Mr. Ilaiyaraaja.

Nikhil Kamath 9:07 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 9:08 Um, T. Rajender, M. S. Vishwanathan-

Nikhil Kamath 9:10 Mm

A.R. Rahman 9:10 ... Raj-Koti. Like, multiple composers. Like, every day there are two songs.

Nikhil Kamath 9:15 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 9:16 Every day there'll be like, I go at nine, I come back at ten.

Nikhil Kamath 9:19 And do they tell you what to play or do you have to come up with it?

A.R. Rahman 9:22 Yeah, they have to... They will, they'll give the notes.

Nikhil Kamath 9:24 Right.

A.R. Rahman 9:24 But after a while, I think when I bought my computer systems, my-

Nikhil Kamath 9:28 Mm

A.R. Rahman 9:29 ... which is around '86, I, they gave me the freedom. They'll just give me a melody, and they'll say, "You arrange it."

Nikhil Kamath 9:35 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 9:36 So I'd arrange all the stuff for them, so that I got used to arrangement. But there, it was easier for me to arrange then. They'll say, "Okay, just do a fight music." So I'll have to create a fight music.

Nikhil Kamath 9:47 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 9:48 With rhythm and large tooty bangs and stuff like that.

Nikhil Kamath 9:53 If you could pick one instrument and never play another again, which one would it be?

A.R. Rahman 9:59 [chuckles] Piano, maybe.

Nikhil Kamath 10:02 Yeah? It's hard to travel with, right?

A.R. Rahman 10:06 It is.

Nikhil Kamath 10:08 Like a guitar, you can just carry.

A.R. Rahman 10:09 No, but keyboard is like-

Nikhil Kamath 10:11 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 10:11 ... you can, you can have a smaller one.

Nikhil Kamath 10:13 Right.

A.R. Rahman 10:13 The electronic one.

Nikhil Kamath 10:15 Right.

A.R. Rahman 10:16 But having a piano, I could only afford after probably six, seven years of my earning.

Nikhil Kamath 10:22 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 10:22 Then I bought a Yamaha, and then now I have Steinway and all that stuff.

Nikhil Kamath 10:27 So for a few years, you played with other composers,

Nikhil Kamath 10:31 like-

A.R. Rahman 10:31 Almost ten years.

Nikhil Kamath 10:32 Ten years, and then they started first telling you what you should play, and then allowing you your own compositions or arrangement.

A.R. Rahman 10:39 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 10:40 And then?

A.R. Rahman 10:41 And then slowly went into jingles, which [clears throat] everything is mine.

Nikhil Kamath 10:45 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 10:45 Right, my-

Nikhil Kamath 10:47 By jingles, you mean ads, right?

A.R. Rahman 10:48 Ads, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 10:49 Like in Tamil?

A.R. Rahman 10:51 No, I think jingles, because most of the agencies are international agencies, right?

Nikhil Kamath 10:56 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 10:56 OMM, HTA.

Nikhil Kamath 10:57 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 10:58 Uh, they would do the scratches here-

Nikhil Kamath 11:00 Mm

A.R. Rahman 11:00 ... and they will throw that out and do it in Mumbai. And then after a time, I think they've started agreeing. They started putting out my stuff. Initially, it was scratches.

Nikhil Kamath 11:09 Mm. What is a scratch?

A.R. Rahman 11:10 Scratch is a tune where they just give it to the client to say-

Nikhil Kamath 11:16 Mm

A.R. Rahman 11:16 ... uh, if it's a ointment or a paint, and they say, "Okay, yeah, this will work. Now go to a bigger-

Nikhil Kamath 11:23 Mm

A.R. Rahman 11:23 ... jingle composer and get this." [chuckles] So then that became like, "Okay, now-

Nikhil Kamath 11:27 Mm

A.R. Rahman 11:28 ... this itself is good enough, and we can use it."

Nikhil Kamath 11:30 Right.

A.R. Rahman 11:30 So that's the process.

Nikhil Kamath 11:31 Mm. When did it all change? When did it-

A.R. Rahman 11:34 '91.

Nikhil Kamath 11:34 When was that aha?

A.R. Rahman 11:35 '91.

Nikhil Kamath 11:36 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 11:39 I know, actually, magic happened when I built my studio. It was '89, Panchathan Studio, which I have.

Nikhil Kamath 11:44 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 11:45 Is when I felt, like, empowered, like I had something which nobody had.

Nikhil Kamath 11:48 Which was?

A.R. Rahman 11:49 Which, my home studio.

Nikhil Kamath 11:51 Why did that change so much? Many people probably had access to a studio, right?

A.R. Rahman 11:56 No. No, those days, studios means, like, the big halls where-

Nikhil Kamath 11:59 Mm

A.R. Rahman 11:59 ... uh, ninety people can play together.

Nikhil Kamath 12:01 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 12:01 The, the concept of home studio never came.

Nikhil Kamath 12:04 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 12:05 So when I built my home studio, is when I realized, like, nobody will judge me.... whether I do good music or bad music, I can judge it myself and play the final product. Because in studios, whatever you play, fifty other people are watching you. If you, you're bringing equipment, they're all coming, "Oh, what is it? What is the new stuff?"

Nikhil Kamath 12:22 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 12:22 "How many people are going to lose jobs?" [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 12:24 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 12:24 So I was the gizmo guy, right?

Nikhil Kamath 12:27 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 12:27 I used to buy the computers and...

Nikhil Kamath 12:29 So if I want to become a musician in my life, or if people watching want to become a musician, what is that thing they have to do now? Like, you got a studio. Is there some equivalent for today?

A.R. Rahman 12:41 You just have to practice. You just have an intention to learn, you can learn anywhere now.

Nikhil Kamath 12:44 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 12:45 That's it.

Nikhil Kamath 12:45 What if I'm already learned? Like, I'm-- not, not me, because I have no knowledge, but somebody who is a learned, trained musician.

A.R. Rahman 12:51 You come to Chennai, come to my conservatory-

Nikhil Kamath 12:53 [laughing]

A.R. Rahman 12:53 ... called K Music Conservatory, and join there. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 12:56 Right. And there you will teach me how to compose music?

A.R. Rahman 13:00 Everything, any course, like piano, voice, and yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 13:03 Okay, so you started a studio at home, and then?

A.R. Rahman 13:06 And then I started experimenting, uh, my own music, which nobody had heard.

Nikhil Kamath 13:12 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 13:12 So Mani Ratnam came, and I played them all.

Nikhil Kamath 13:14 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 13:14 And he was quietly listening to all the stuff. That listening session became the DNA for Roja.

Nikhil Kamath 13:21 Hmm. And then Roja changed everything.

A.R. Rahman 13:23 Mm-hmm.

Nikhil Kamath 13:25 Immediately?

A.R. Rahman 13:26 Yeah, overnight.

Nikhil Kamath 13:28 Yeah? What year was this?

A.R. Rahman 13:30 '91, I think, '91.

Nikhil Kamath 13:31 Right. So Roja released, and next day, people-

A.R. Rahman 13:36 Roja released.

Nikhil Kamath 13:37 People started treating you differently altogether.

A.R. Rahman 13:39 Yeah, bec- because he's one of the top directors, which every actor, every composer wanted to work with him.

Nikhil Kamath 13:45 Right.

A.R. Rahman 13:45 He's one of the top notch. Still, I feel like-

Nikhil Kamath 13:48 Mm

A.R. Rahman 13:48 ... everybody is drooling over to work with a Mani Ratnam movie.

Nikhil Kamath 13:51 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 13:51 Whether it's a success or a-

Nikhil Kamath 13:52 Mm

A.R. Rahman 13:52 ... I think even the process is so respectful.

Nikhil Kamath 13:54 The same is true to, for you. You know that, right?

A.R. Rahman 13:56 Yeah, absolutely. Oh, me? [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 13:58 [laughing]

A.R. Rahman 13:58 Okay.

Nikhil Kamath 13:59 Yeah. And then everything changed. People around you, treated you changed. How did you change?

A.R. Rahman 14:06 How did I change? I was like, "Okay, this will be the last movie. I don't want this. I don't want movies, because I've been in movies, and it's so boring." But the Mani Ratnam movies are completely different.

Nikhil Kamath 14:15 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 14:16 And he kind of listened to me, like, "This is what I want to do, or I don't want to do movies."

Nikhil Kamath 14:20 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 14:20 Then I told him, like, I said, "I'm very satisfied working with you. I don't want to work with other people."

Nikhil Kamath 14:25 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 14:27 Uh, he said, "No, no, no, no, you should work with everyone." [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 14:30 Mm. Mm.

A.R. Rahman 14:30 So I said, "I'm very happy working just with you, and I'll do jingles or I'll do private albums."

Nikhil Kamath 14:35 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 14:35 He said, "No, you should work with everyone." And, uh, so my first ten years was like, [lips smack] "Okay, enough! After this movie, I'll leave everything.

Nikhil Kamath 14:44 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 14:44 I'll do my own stuff."

Nikhil Kamath 14:45 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 14:46 Even movie was my own stuff, but I have-

Nikhil Kamath 14:48 Mm

A.R. Rahman 14:48 ... something non-film.

Nikhil Kamath 14:49 Why do you think that was?

A.R. Rahman 14:51 I don't know why. I had this thing of leaving everything.

Nikhil Kamath 14:54 Is that because fear of disappointment? Is it-

A.R. Rahman 14:57 No, no, I was resisting, uh, I resisting the, the way the movie industry was consuming, [lips smack] because my father was consumed, right?

Nikhil Kamath 15:09 In a good way.

A.R. Rahman 15:09 After he passed away, only a couple of people were there.

Nikhil Kamath 15:12 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 15:12 And nobody else showed up. So that's when I was like, 'People have their own lives.' Then you realize they all have their own lives.

Nikhil Kamath 15:19 You were thinking, this high will go away?

A.R. Rahman 15:21 Not the high. No, I said, like, "It is a thankless..." Any, any industry, it's, it's not a community.

Nikhil Kamath 15:27 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 15:28 We just meet in studios. Very rarely do musicians meet, right?

Nikhil Kamath 15:32 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 15:32 So after he passed away, it is not a government job. There's no pension, nothing.

Nikhil Kamath 15:36 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 15:36 Right? Musician job. I said, "If they are like that, we also have to be careful in not giving every part of us to the industry. We should have soul left with us, so that I can do other things in art."

Nikhil Kamath 15:51 Do you still feel that way about movies?

A.R. Rahman 15:53 I always, I always... That's one of the reasons why when other composers were doing thirty movies a year, I felt I would do two. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 16:01 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 16:02 I started with two, and then three, and then four-

Nikhil Kamath 16:04 Mm

A.R. Rahman 16:04 ... then became twelve. Then I, I escaped to resist, uh, people coming to me. I went to England and sat-

Nikhil Kamath 16:11 Mm

A.R. Rahman 16:12 ... with Andrew Lloyd Webber, doing Bombay Dreams. The reason is to resist and grow.

Nikhil Kamath 16:17 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 16:18 Because I'm giving away all the stuff I learned, but I, I don't have anything new to offer, I'll be thrown away. So it's important to evolve artistically as a musician, composer. Is when I think the, the, the foundation of what I'm doing now is probably my time in London, my time in Hollywood.

Nikhil Kamath 16:36 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 16:37 Not doing music, studying, going for short courses, [chuckles] you know, unconnected with music, but-

Nikhil Kamath 16:45 Mm

A.R. Rahman 16:45 ... to understand art, art in a very different way.

Nikhil Kamath 16:47 That's crazy that you're still learning to the day.

A.R. Rahman 16:50 Learning in the way, because you're forced to learn. You buy a new rhythm machine, you have to learn how-

Nikhil Kamath 16:55 Mm

A.R. Rahman 16:56 ... where the, where to project load. Most of them are common.

Nikhil Kamath 16:59 Right.

A.R. Rahman 16:59 But even there, many stuff is changing, right? Now, there's granular synthesis, there's algorithmic composition. There is, um, now AI-assisted editing. Arrangements, which, uh, all the masters have done, like Bernstein-

Nikhil Kamath 17:16 Mm

A.R. Rahman 17:17 ... and Gershwin-

Nikhil Kamath 17:18 Mm

A.R. Rahman 17:18 ... and John Williams.

Nikhil Kamath 17:20 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 17:20 And it's fascinating to see the older, um, Tchaikovsky or Mozart, and there's always things to learn.

Nikhil Kamath 17:29 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 17:30 Not to copy-

Nikhil Kamath 17:31 Uh

A.R. Rahman 17:31 ... but to understand the, to speed up your orchestration.

Nikhil Kamath 17:35 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 17:36 And even studying songs about poetry, about metaphoric myths, about not straight words, but where it's hitting you.

Nikhil Kamath 17:44 Mm. Did you feel any imposter complex in this period, where you thought you were undeserving of what you got-

A.R. Rahman 17:50 Always. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 17:50 ... and hence? Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 17:52 Always. That's why I surrender.

Nikhil Kamath 17:54 Does this also translate into personal life, where you might spend a lot less money than you can afford to?

A.R. Rahman 18:02 Like what?

Nikhil Kamath 18:03 Like, say, as a very wealthy man, you can afford to live X lifestyle.... but you live ten percent of that or twenty percent of that?

A.R. Rahman 18:13 My son is listening there. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 18:15 Yeah. [laughing] Does he agree?

A.R. Rahman 18:16 Yeah, I think, I think because it, uh, it's not that I'm not, uh... I feel like if I can sustain-

Nikhil Kamath 18:23 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 18:23 -like my mother, God bless her, uh, she used to give, on, on Friday, she used to give-

Nikhil Kamath 18:30 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 18:31 -food.

Nikhil Kamath 18:31 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 18:33 So doing one thing-

Nikhil Kamath 18:34 Mm

A.R. Rahman 18:35 ... and for a certain number of people, she used to feed them. We're still doing that.

Nikhil Kamath 18:40 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 18:41 She didn't feed on every day, and on a, on a bad situation, you cut all the stuff.

Nikhil Kamath 18:49 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 18:50 We're able to do that by the grace of God, even now.

Nikhil Kamath 18:52 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 18:53 That's consistently doing something good for a longer time is better than doing everything at the one time, and then not having money. So I believe that consistency is very important. Your lifestyle, even whether you have money or not-

Nikhil Kamath 19:04 Mm

A.R. Rahman 19:04 ... can be the same.

Nikhil Kamath 19:05 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 19:06 Um, because when I was doing Roja, I didn't have money for even putting petrol.

Nikhil Kamath 19:10 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 19:11 Because I was just doing that one movie-

Nikhil Kamath 19:12 Mm

A.R. Rahman 19:12 ... because I had concentrated so much. There were days where I didn't have my petrol was... I used to drive that time, it was zero.

Nikhil Kamath 19:19 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 19:20 And, uh, I felt like it's a good feeling because you're sacrificing all that stuff for the believing in what you're doing.

Nikhil Kamath 19:28 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 19:28 Right? So it's important that even my children realise, like, to be-

Nikhil Kamath 19:34 Mm

A.R. Rahman 19:34 ... consistently in one lifestyle, where you can travel, you can eat anywhere you want, but you don't, you don't want to show the whole world like what you are. And then it's, it's a fake, um, pompousness, right? [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 19:48 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 19:49 And anyway, the, in Chennai, I think it's, it's a city which makes you-

Nikhil Kamath 19:55 Mm

A.R. Rahman 19:55 ... be simple.

Nikhil Kamath 19:56 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 19:57 It's not a, unlike some other places where they don't hug you and see what you're wearing-

Nikhil Kamath 20:02 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 20:03 ... at the back. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 20:04 Yeah. I would ask myself when I, like, Delhi and Hyderabad are on one side, and Bangalore and Chennai are on the other side, of where projections sit. So I, I would think, 'Why is it appealing to Bangalore and Chennai to live under their means? And why is the opposite, the whole showing, living in the moment, more appealing to the north?'

A.R. Rahman 20:33 There's nothing wrong in... I think it's, the way I think, is consistency over years, rather than, you know, you can buy the best car, you can buy a Bugatti, you can be in the best flat, but then ultimately, where do you get the happiness? In the studio.

Nikhil Kamath 20:49 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 20:49 So if you look at my studio, I have a, the most expensive piano-

Nikhil Kamath 20:53 Mm

A.R. Rahman 20:53 ... the most expensive mixer. But that's, again, helping me to serve better.

Nikhil Kamath 20:58 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 20:58 Right? So it's a little old school, but I believe that. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 21:03 When I thought about this, I, I was thinking about things like, 'Okay, maybe North India saw so much war, so many people invaded. People did not live for as long-

A.R. Rahman 21:16 Oh!

Nikhil Kamath 21:16 ... so they lived more in the moment.' People in the south have largely been-

A.R. Rahman 21:20 [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 21:21 ... secure for a long period of time.

A.R. Rahman 21:23 You think so? Nobody's secure. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 21:25 [chuckles] Relatively.

A.R. Rahman 21:26 They have other tortures in life.

Nikhil Kamath 21:27 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 21:29 Uh, it is a double-edged sword.

Nikhil Kamath 21:31 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 21:31 When, when we go out, it's important to present India in the best possible way.

Nikhil Kamath 21:38 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 21:39 Because the whole world think India is in poverty-

Nikhil Kamath 21:41 Mm

A.R. Rahman 21:41 ... and this and that. I feel like India, the certain people are not in poverty.

Nikhil Kamath 21:46 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 21:47 We probably have the richest Indians here.

Nikhil Kamath 21:49 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 21:50 And it's important to represent the country with dignity.

Nikhil Kamath 21:52 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 21:53 To dress up, to show that we are culture people, we have a great history and culture, and style and everything. It's very, very important. You don't want to show them that you are very simple than when people are judging you.

Nikhil Kamath 22:04 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 22:05 You know? As an Indian, I feel like I want to be the re- best representative, the best car outside. When I, when I go and I'm in LA, I have Bentley.

Nikhil Kamath 22:13 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 22:14 I lease a Bentley.

Nikhil Kamath 22:15 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 22:15 So, I mean, at least I had that time.

Nikhil Kamath 22:18 Right.

A.R. Rahman 22:18 At least. [laughing] Right? So-

Nikhil Kamath 22:20 Why a Bentley fan?

A.R. Rahman 22:22 Because it's easy, it's, it's cheaper.

Nikhil Kamath 22:23 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 22:24 You have to pay a hundred and ten percent duty here. There, you just lease and-

Nikhil Kamath 22:27 Right. But is there a reason-

A.R. Rahman 22:28 You can get any car, like...

Nikhil Kamath 22:29 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 22:30 You can get any-

Nikhil Kamath 22:30 As an artist, the style aesthetic of Bentley appeals most?

A.R. Rahman 22:33 Not like that. I, because I never believed in that.

Nikhil Kamath 22:35 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 22:35 And because it was so cheap there-

Nikhil Kamath 22:36 Right

A.R. Rahman 22:37 ... to, to rent any car.

Nikhil Kamath 22:38 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 22:39 As I said, I had that moment of two years-

Nikhil Kamath 22:41 Mm

A.R. Rahman 22:41 ... driving my kids around.

Nikhil Kamath 22:42 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 22:43 "Hey, come, let's go." And I have still the videos of my son screaming when I'm going fast- [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 22:47 [chuckles]

A.R. Rahman 22:47 ... sitting in the back.

Nikhil Kamath 22:48 And you started driving when you were really early, and-

A.R. Rahman 22:51 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 22:51 ... still enjoy driving? Do you still drive?

A.R. Rahman 22:53 I do drive. I started driving again.

Nikhil Kamath 22:54 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 22:55 I got my Mahindra Electric car. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 22:58 Uh, uh.

A.R. Rahman 22:58 And, uh, there I have, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 23:00 Why Mahindra Electric car?

A.R. Rahman 23:02 I don't know. I s- I just love it. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 23:04 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 23:05 For the first time, I felt like it's world-class quality, and, um-

Nikhil Kamath 23:08 Mm

A.R. Rahman 23:08 ... I also worked on it. I was also constantly suggesting to them, "Do this, do that."

Nikhil Kamath 23:12 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 23:13 The sound system, and we have-

Nikhil Kamath 23:14 Uh

A.R. Rahman 23:14 ... some of the best...

Nikhil Kamath 23:15 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 23:16 My music sounds the best in that-

Nikhil Kamath 23:18 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 23:18 ... or than any other car. Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 23:20 So you're part of the design?

A.R. Rahman 23:21 I'm not getting paid for this, okay, guys? [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 23:23 [laughing] So it was like a hobby project?

A.R. Rahman 23:27 It was something very different. I think Hans Zimmer had done it for BMW.

Nikhil Kamath 23:30 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 23:31 And, uh, I, Mr Velu, who's the CEO, like-

Nikhil Kamath 23:35 Uh

A.R. Rahman 23:35 ... he came in and we had fun.

Nikhil Kamath 23:37 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 23:38 Yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 23:38 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 23:39 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 23:41 And beyond Roja and the initial success, what happened after that? Also, were you, in some way, on the cusp of a change in trend of what kind of music was working in India in the '90s? Did you catch a change in trend, or did you create a change in trend?

A.R. Rahman 23:58 The trend happened because of Roja.

A.R. Rahman 24:00 [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 24:00 Right. What was the-

A.R. Rahman 24:01 There was a denial that, "Oh, this one last," and I think there was a denial constantly for-

Nikhil Kamath 24:05 What was the incumbent trend, and what was the change in trend?

A.R. Rahman 24:09 There was this traditional kind of music, which is beautiful.

Nikhil Kamath 24:11 Like?

A.R. Rahman 24:12 The Hindi composers were all there, and there's a beauty in it still.... but because I'm not made of that. [chuckles] My sensibility was different, because I was in a band. I like jazz, I like rock, I like, uh, you know, uh, Qawwali, I like Carnatic, I like Hindustani. So my aspiration was very expansive.

Nikhil Kamath 24:36 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 24:37 I didn't want to stick to that dholak and, um, mandolin kind of, uh, this thing. I wanted to... Because I could do it.

Nikhil Kamath 24:46 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 24:46 Because I, I was now experienced in arranging for other people, and-

Nikhil Kamath 24:50 Right

A.R. Rahman 24:50 ... also seeing the results, and I had my own studio, and I could, uh, get to the results faster than imagining it, without people judging me. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 25:00 So you changed that trend into Roja kind of music, and how would you articulate that? What was Roja kind of music?

A.R. Rahman 25:08 Roja was very... So my intention was, when I met Mani Ratnam Ji, I said, "When we are listening to Pink Floyd-

Nikhil Kamath 25:18 Right.

A.R. Rahman 25:18 -Queen-

Nikhil Kamath 25:19 Right.

A.R. Rahman 25:20 um, John Williams-

Nikhil Kamath 25:22 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 25:22 Vangelis, Beatles, Michael Jackson-

Nikhil Kamath 25:26 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 25:27 ... they don't listen to us. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 25:29 Right.

A.R. Rahman 25:29 So what's the reason?

Nikhil Kamath 25:30 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 25:30 Language, production, and, uh, vibe, feel, recording.

Nikhil Kamath 25:37 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 25:38 Multiple things, right? So I addressed all the stuff. I was studying all the stuff. I addressed all the stuff. I said, "Tamil song, which we do here, should go," and my-- if you look at my internet- um, initial interviews, it says, uh, "Each Tamil song I do should go around the world."

Nikhil Kamath 25:55 Right.

A.R. Rahman 25:55 And it was planned. It was... I worked for it.

Nikhil Kamath 25:58 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 25:58 That's why I did less work, and I had to... A lot of people thought, 'Okay, this guy is, like, very adamant and-

Nikhil Kamath 26:07 Mm

A.R. Rahman 26:07 ... you know, snobbish," and I said, "Not!" My human limitations are, I need time to heal, I need a time to listen to it, I need time to change, I need to evolve a song into what present shape. It is not like... I could do a song, three songs in seven, seven hours or so.

Nikhil Kamath 26:23 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 26:24 Because I knew all the formulas.

Nikhil Kamath 26:25 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 26:26 But that's not what I wanted to do.

Nikhil Kamath 26:27 Right.

A.R. Rahman 26:28 I wanted to take it inch by inch to what I felt would be the future of my sound for the world.

A.R. Rahman 26:36 [guitar playing]

Nikhil Kamath 26:40 Indian classical music never had its day under the sun, per se. Like, at some point, rock music was cool, at some point, jazz was cool, at some point... I'm saying, across the world. In India, obviously, Bo- Bollywood is very, very popular.

A.R. Rahman 26:55 We need to position classical music in a very higher-

Nikhil Kamath 26:58 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 26:58 ... way. I think right now it's like, "I, I give this much money, I can get a teacher." No.

Nikhil Kamath 27:03 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 27:03 Getting a good teacher, getting the, they say, heart-to-heart transfer of knowledge, mind-to-mind transfer, you know, spirit. Not just the knowledge of ragas, but the spirit of giving from a guru, is only India sees that. It comes in, you know, the saints and the Sufis. Uh, it's not just knowledge, it's giving. The prayer and the soul actually wishes something, it manifests, right? The product has to be truthful, the product has to be sincere. When it's sincere, they, they grab it. Because if you look at all the, the voice talent shows, they pick the best compositions usually. They pick because it's tough to sing, and it shows the prowess of the singer.

Nikhil Kamath 27:49 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 27:50 That's very important. So even that, even classical music, the way it's performed, needs to change. It needs to be more immersive.

Nikhil Kamath 27:59 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 28:00 And that's what we're doing. I have a band called Jaala, which-

Nikhil Kamath 28:03 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 28:04 ... and we're also floating a, a award called the Bharat Maestro Award-

Nikhil Kamath 28:06 Mm

A.R. Rahman 28:06 ... to find the next Zakir Hussain-

Nikhil Kamath 28:08 Mm

A.R. Rahman 28:09 ... next Ravi Shankar. Of course, not Anushka Shankar-

Nikhil Kamath 28:11 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 28:11 ... is there already. For India, we need to find them and then nail them, that these are the maestros of India. Like recently, I did a song called Muthu Mariya in Thug Life.

Nikhil Kamath 28:21 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 28:22 It's a very complicated song.

Nikhil Kamath 28:23 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 28:23 They embraced it so much.

Nikhil Kamath 28:25 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 28:25 Embraced it, and it became a talk of... For three months, they were talking about the song.

Nikhil Kamath 28:30 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 28:31 Because it, it has multiple ragas mixing and going in. And if we put our energy and mastery in how we deliver the songs to people, definitely they'll like it. It should not be the intention, "Oh, I'm giving you classical music. Listen to it, it's good for you." [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 28:45 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 28:46 No, give something good-

Nikhil Kamath 28:47 Mm

A.R. Rahman 28:47 ... and make it masterful, with the whole team, like the dance and creativity and everything. They will take it, definitely. Hey Rama-

Nikhil Kamath 28:55 Mm

A.R. Rahman 28:55 ... is a classical song. The narrative-

Nikhil Kamath 28:59 Mm

A.R. Rahman 28:59 ... is how you make them feel.

Nikhil Kamath 29:00 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 29:01 That's the most important thing.

Nikhil Kamath 29:02 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 29:02 Like this decor?

Nikhil Kamath 29:03 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 29:04 It feels very inviting.

Nikhil Kamath 29:06 Yeah!

A.R. Rahman 29:07 It feels very-

Nikhil Kamath 29:07 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 29:08 uh, it's welcoming.

Nikhil Kamath 29:09 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 29:10 It's feels like, uh, somebody's-

Nikhil Kamath 29:12 It feels lived in, right?

A.R. Rahman 29:13 Yeah, that's very important.

Nikhil Kamath 29:14 Yeah. It's all from ages old. Like, those pillars are temple pillars.

A.R. Rahman 29:20 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 29:20 That door is from a temple chariot. They're all from South Indian.

A.R. Rahman 29:25 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 29:25 I think you will also find it familiar, because it's largely South Indian stuff.

A.R. Rahman 29:29 Yeah, I love South Indian stuff.

Nikhil Kamath 29:30 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 29:31 Same with the Peace Garden. If you come to Peace Garden, if you come to Chennai, I'll take you to-

Nikhil Kamath 29:35 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 29:35 ... which is a combination of South Indian temple architecture-

Nikhil Kamath 29:39 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 29:39 ... Sufi architecture, a mix of all the stuff.

Nikhil Kamath 29:41 Yeah. But Indian art seems to be making a comeback.

A.R. Rahman 29:45 Not enough, I think.

Nikhil Kamath 29:46 No?

A.R. Rahman 29:47 I think art should be taught, artistic view should be taught to the kids from kindergarten.

Nikhil Kamath 29:53 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 29:54 The way they keep their houses, if the, every house in the street is kept well clean, the street is going to look beautiful. When I went to Italy, that's what I found. Or if you go to Jaipur-

Nikhil Kamath 30:05 Mm

A.R. Rahman 30:05 ... or, or Kerala, they have a sense of, uh, style, which... and neatness. And I'm not saying-- I've not been to many states, but I feel like, uh, that's very important to inject that in the minds of younger people, who will change the look of a country.

Nikhil Kamath 30:23 ... Western cities are very homogenous. Like, every building will have the same color.

A.R. Rahman 30:27 That is US. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 30:29 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 30:30 But if you go to places like, uh, even Italy-

Nikhil Kamath 30:35 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 30:35 Uh, Greece is different, Spain is different, Morocco is different. They all have a character.

Nikhil Kamath 30:41 Don't you feel like Indian cities have every building which is so different, and the color is so different that it doesn't look cohesive?

A.R. Rahman 30:49 Cohesive. No, it doesn't. Anyway, let's not talk about that. [chuckles] But important thing is to, uh, nurture children from kindergarten-

Nikhil Kamath 30:59 Mm

A.R. Rahman 31:00 ... so they look at a country in a way where they'll be the future people who will change the way it looks, better, like AI. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 31:09 I think creativity will become more relevant in the world of AI.

A.R. Rahman 31:13 Absolutely, because I think you're empowering people with, with a vision-

Nikhil Kamath 31:17 Mm-hmm

A.R. Rahman 31:17 ... who don't know the chops.

Nikhil Kamath 31:18 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 31:19 And the chops are actually AI. So-

Nikhil Kamath 31:21 Mm

A.R. Rahman 31:21 ... the vision and the prompts actually gives you options which you say, "Oh, I love this."

Nikhil Kamath 31:26 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 31:26 And it's a very empowering tool for, for younger people who don't have the access to make a movie or-

Nikhil Kamath 31:35 Mm

A.R. Rahman 31:35 ... make art, or they don't know how to paint, but they have a vision. At least it'll force them to have an example to, in part of what it's creating, to beat that.

Nikhil Kamath 31:47 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 31:47 Right? Which is an interesting thing now, I think, when you do music also.

Nikhil Kamath 31:52 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 31:53 You're constantly thinking. Now, the songs which are coming out are very experimental.

Nikhil Kamath 31:57 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 31:57 Like, the, recently there's a song by RAYE, R-A-Y-E.

Nikhil Kamath 32:01 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 32:02 And it clearly shows that she's trying to beat AI.

Nikhil Kamath 32:05 How is that?

A.R. Rahman 32:06 Uh, the way the construction of the song-

Nikhil Kamath 32:08 Mm

A.R. Rahman 32:09 ... uh, is different from what people would do, which, what AI copies, right? It's learned from the past, so.

Nikhil Kamath 32:16 So you have to be contrarian to whatever the predictive model is.

A.R. Rahman 32:20 Absolutely, yeah. It forces us to think differently.

Nikhil Kamath 32:23 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 32:23 "Okay, now we've got that. Okay, how about this?"

Nikhil Kamath 32:25 Mm. But can't tomorrow, another AI just play the role of a contrarian?

A.R. Rahman 32:30 Humans have this evolutionary spirit, and we will do something else. [chuckles] We'll go back and do something which is completely wrong, which will be very cool.

Nikhil Kamath 32:41 Does music have rules?

A.R. Rahman 32:43 Music, I feel, uh, I go by nostalgia. I go by, uh, the good things of tradition, and sometimes I got bored with that, and I break the tradition. [chuckles] So it's not one formula. It's like how, how a narrator... So like when, when I'm talking to you, if I talk anything boring, you won't look at me as like, "Oh, he's already told us," and you're going to look away. But I'm looking at you, I'm constantly evolving. I'm thinking like, "Okay, let me, let, let me tell, tell you the stuff-

Nikhil Kamath 33:15 Mm

A.R. Rahman 33:16 ... or let me tell you a new information which you not know. Then you are curious about it.

Nikhil Kamath 33:20 Right.

A.R. Rahman 33:21 Music is like that.

Nikhil Kamath 33:22 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 33:22 It's like a conversation where, um, one is like, "This tune is going like this, and I need to surprise them with this one." Pull out the rhythm or change the key, or change the rhythm.

Nikhil Kamath 33:33 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 33:34 Right? Change the raga.

Nikhil Kamath 33:36 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 33:37 Or come with the same lyric in a different way. So it is an experience, right?

Nikhil Kamath 33:42 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 33:43 That's how I used to think. I'm still thinking the same way.

Nikhil Kamath 33:46 Do you think to be as successful as you have been, you need to catch a countertrend?

A.R. Rahman 33:51 What is a countertrend?

Nikhil Kamath 33:54 Whenever the incumbent trend, like you said, about old school music with dholak and mandolin and all of that.

A.R. Rahman 34:01 No, I love dholaks, but not, [chuckles] not always. But that's not be the only thing.

Nikhil Kamath 34:05 Right.

A.R. Rahman 34:05 You know, even now, when I do a Qawwali track, I use dholak and tabla.

Nikhil Kamath 34:08 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 34:09 I do, I use strings-

Nikhil Kamath 34:10 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 34:10 ... but in my-

Nikhil Kamath 34:11 But to be able to recognize that people are tired of that and-

A.R. Rahman 34:14 I am the people. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 34:17 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 34:17 I need to see whether I like the song, and if I feel good, "Yeah, this is, this feels really good," and they will love it. Sometimes it takes time for them to get it.

Nikhil Kamath 34:26 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 34:26 And they get it, and then it stays there forever.

Nikhil Kamath 34:29 And for all the aspiring musicians and songwriters and composers watching this, what do you think the next change in trend will be that they can get on early?

A.R. Rahman 34:39 I think all of them are so smart now.

Nikhil Kamath 34:41 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 34:42 And because the exposure-

Nikhil Kamath 34:43 Mm

A.R. Rahman 34:45 ... they get to see everything on reels and on social media.

Nikhil Kamath 34:49 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 34:50 Every person is a makeup person, an actor-

Nikhil Kamath 34:53 Mm

A.R. Rahman 34:53 ... a cinematographer, a director, and it's fascinating to see how the younger people are evolving. Like, I discover so many people who are extraordinary in comedy-

Nikhil Kamath 35:01 Mm

A.R. Rahman 35:02 ... in direction-

Nikhil Kamath 35:03 Mm

A.R. Rahman 35:03 ... in effective, you know, reels. Like, it's just thirty seconds, and-

Nikhil Kamath 35:07 Right

A.R. Rahman 35:07 ... they have to come up with stuff.

Nikhil Kamath 35:08 Right.

A.R. Rahman 35:09 And it forces them to become great directors, storytellers.

Nikhil Kamath 35:12 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 35:13 And so I get inspired by them. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 35:16 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 35:17 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 35:18 But any, any suggestions? Young-

A.R. Rahman 35:20 Lean into it.

Nikhil Kamath 35:21 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 35:22 Leaning into something, not giving up.

Nikhil Kamath 35:24 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 35:24 Like, you shouldn't give up. You should go back to music and-

Nikhil Kamath 35:27 [chuckles]

A.R. Rahman 35:27 ... lean into it.

Nikhil Kamath 35:28 I'll show you how bad I am at some point, and then you can tell me. [chuckles]

A.R. Rahman 35:30 No, bad and good is subjective. It's subjective.

Nikhil Kamath 35:32 Right.

A.R. Rahman 35:33 One person's bad, or the other person's good.

Nikhil Kamath 35:35 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 35:35 Like, you know good music when you listen to it, so...

Nikhil Kamath 35:38 I'm good at listening to music.

A.R. Rahman 35:40 That's good.

Nikhil Kamath 35:40 That's a good start. [chuckles]

A.R. Rahman 35:42 It's a great start.

Nikhil Kamath 35:43 Right.

A.R. Rahman 35:43 That's how it is.

Nikhil Kamath 35:45 Right.

A.R. Rahman 35:45 So lean into it. Just don't give up, and because, you know, you dig, like-

Nikhil Kamath 35:49 Mm

A.R. Rahman 35:49 ... the, the cliché is, like, first you get mud, and then you get water, then you get petrol, and then you get gold.

Nikhil Kamath 35:54 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 35:55 So, but you have to keep digging.

Nikhil Kamath 35:57 Right.

A.R. Rahman 35:57 And the more you dig, you will, you will forget yourself, that you become that.

Nikhil Kamath 36:01 Right. How do I learn? Okay, this is very personal. I don't know who this will help, but I can play a few chords. I don't sing well. Now I want to suddenly get better. Not suddenly, in a year, get better. How do I do it?

A.R. Rahman 36:14 Just practice, practice, practice.

Nikhil Kamath 36:15 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 36:16 Yeah. Don't wait for tomorrow to practice.

Nikhil Kamath 36:19 Uh-huh.

A.R. Rahman 36:19 Practice now. Once you go-

Nikhil Kamath 36:20 Uh

A.R. Rahman 36:20 ... after you eat-

Nikhil Kamath 36:21 [chuckles]

A.R. Rahman 36:22 ... sit for five minutes, take your tanpura, play.

Nikhil Kamath 36:24 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 36:25 ... sing Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Dha Ni Sa.

Nikhil Kamath 36:26 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 36:27 Slowly.

Nikhil Kamath 36:27 I've heard it all my life. I don't know why it flew.

A.R. Rahman 36:30 I have to tell you a secret.

Nikhil Kamath 36:31 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 36:32 Um, I'm singing from '92.

Nikhil Kamath 36:36 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 36:37 But then my singing was always to compose.

Nikhil Kamath 36:39 Right.

A.R. Rahman 36:40 Right? I was-- I'll play a chord, compose.

Nikhil Kamath 36:41 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 36:42 Then I realized that when I'm composing, I don't have to be in tune. I just need to understand what tune.

Nikhil Kamath 36:48 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 36:48 When that becomes a habit, your singing becomes more, uh, not that perfect, because you're trying to reach notes, and you're trying to, like, scribbling something rather than-

Nikhil Kamath 36:59 Mm

A.R. Rahman 36:59 ... painting.

Nikhil Kamath 37:00 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 37:00 Sketching something.

Nikhil Kamath 37:01 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 37:02 Then, when I'm on the stage, is when I realized, like, I have to be in tune, because-

Nikhil Kamath 37:05 Mm

A.R. Rahman 37:06 ... people are recording, people are putting it on YouTube.

Nikhil Kamath 37:08 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 37:08 Then I started, uh... My teacher said, um, Gulam Ali Khan Saab, who passed away, so he said, "Practice your lower notes."

Nikhil Kamath 37:17 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 37:17 Like, go, [singing] Sa, Ni, Dha. "Make it stronger-

Nikhil Kamath 37:22 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 37:22 -and your higher notes will be as strong as that." So, and now I'm learning a little bit from Majeda, Majeda Chakraborty. And his thing is, like, "Go and go louder when you go down." And that made a lot of difference in my pitch. When I'm singing a, a note longer, I could feel that I'm in pitch. And when I look at some of the reels, I'm like, "Yeah, okay, that's good, that's good. Twenty percent improvement [chuckles] from what I was doing before."

Nikhil Kamath 37:46 Right.

A.R. Rahman 37:47 So there's no time, no age.

Nikhil Kamath 37:51 Right.

A.R. Rahman 37:51 We are constantly evolving in every aspect of it.

Nikhil Kamath 37:53 Yeah. Maybe I'll try and get a teacher.

A.R. Rahman 37:56 That's a great idea.

Nikhil Kamath 37:57 Right?

A.R. Rahman 37:57 And Bombay is filled with teachers.

Nikhil Kamath 37:58 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 37:59 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 38:00 Do you think there's such a thing as talent in music?

A.R. Rahman 38:05 There is. Some people understand something better than other people.

Nikhil Kamath 38:08 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 38:09 Because it comes the way the mind works.

Nikhil Kamath 38:11 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 38:11 It doesn't mean that other people can't reach there.

Nikhil Kamath 38:13 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 38:14 Right?

Nikhil Kamath 38:15 I have this theory about passion.

A.R. Rahman 38:17 Okay.

Nikhil Kamath 38:18 I feel like all people are born the same, and we all attempt different things. If I was five years old and I played cricket, and I played cricket better than the twenty classmates of mine, I would organically become passionate at cricket-

A.R. Rahman 38:35 Mm-hmm

Nikhil Kamath 38:35 ... 'cause I'm doing it better than the twenty kids around me. Do you think the same is true for music?

A.R. Rahman 38:41 No. When I was young-

Nikhil Kamath 38:42 Mm

A.R. Rahman 38:42 ... I felt I was very bad in music.

Nikhil Kamath 38:44 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 38:45 I had stalwarts like Mandolin Srinivas, who was a genius. He would play. He was younger than me. He was playing a kirtana. I said, "I'm not as good as that." And I was seeing my teacher's son playing piano, who was younger than me. But I was forced to work anyway, so my needed talent was less, because-

Nikhil Kamath 39:02 Right

A.R. Rahman 39:02 ... I had to play some sound effect or some simple melodies.

Nikhil Kamath 39:05 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 39:06 And I met a teacher called, uh, Jacob John.

Nikhil Kamath 39:09 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 39:09 He was my father's friend.

Nikhil Kamath 39:10 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 39:11 He called me and said, "You, you play very well." I said, "No, I don't play very well."

Nikhil Kamath 39:13 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 39:14 And he had this a- amazing technique. He would wantonly play with mistakes-

Nikhil Kamath 39:18 Mm

A.R. Rahman 39:18 ... and he'd let you play, and say, "You're playing better than me." So he had this incredible technique of, trick to s-

Nikhil Kamath 39:25 Mm

A.R. Rahman 39:25 ... make you feel better.

Nikhil Kamath 39:28 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 39:28 And I hung out with him, like, three, four years. It's one of, some of the best times I had.

Nikhil Kamath 39:33 I must also say, you look incredibly young for your age. Like, skin is glowing and all that.

A.R. Rahman 39:38 That's, my software is ve- very, very latest, but hardware is becoming old. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 39:44 Any secrets?

A.R. Rahman 39:46 Secrets?

Nikhil Kamath 39:46 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 39:47 Just don't think negative stuff. Don't worry about anything.

Nikhil Kamath 39:50 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 39:50 Nobody cares.

Nikhil Kamath 39:51 Okay.

A.R. Rahman 39:51 We're all going to die one day. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 39:54 So all this happened, okay?

A.R. Rahman 39:55 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 39:56 And then, I have, I have, like, notes about

Nikhil Kamath 40:00 different years of your life and what happened, and I'm trying to, like, go into today. You did Andrew Lloyd Webber, Dil Se happened, Vande Mataram: India at Fifty, Maa Tujhe Salaam, all of that happened. We come to 2006.

A.R. Rahman 40:18 Mm-hmm.

Nikhil Kamath 40:19 What's happening around this era? You started in '90s because of the studio.

A.R. Rahman 40:23 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 40:23 When you started a studio, you got this big break in Roja. Your life changed overnight. People around you started treating you like something else. You got a little imposter complex and insecure about putting all your eggs in one basket because you had seen it happen at home at an early age. You diversified. You continued to do many things. You went to Andrew Lloyd Webber's thing. You did things outside of India, in India. Tell us where your mind is at two thousand and six, seven, eight, around this era, global slowdown era.

A.R. Rahman 40:55 So two thousand and six, I was, uh, appointed as the stop TB ambassador by UN.

Nikhil Kamath 40:59 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 41:00 Uh, so I went, traveled to Singapore, met AIDS, TB patients, and a very completely different role. I met Kofi Annan in the UN, all that stuff. And then that's when my foundation, idea of foundation came by.

Nikhil Kamath 41:14 And by this time, you were a big deal, because you're meeting them.

A.R. Rahman 41:18 I don't know. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 41:18 Hundred percent.

A.R. Rahman 41:20 Yeah, I don't... Uh, so I meet them.

Nikhil Kamath 41:23 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 41:23 Uh, I come back with a vision of, like, why don't we have a school?

Nikhil Kamath 41:27 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 41:27 Like, you know, all these musicians are my father's age now, and what if they pass, and we don't have string players or trumpet players?

Nikhil Kamath 41:35 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 41:35 So the idea of, uh, starting the school came at 2008-

Nikhil Kamath 41:39 Mm

A.R. Rahman 41:39 ... where, uh, I said, called one of my associates and said, "Hey, we have to start a school."

Nikhil Kamath 41:44 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 41:44 "It's a free school. I'm gonna..." He said, "No, no, no, no. Free school, nobody's gonna respect. You have to get money, and I'll be the-- and I'll take care of it." So I didn't know anything, so I took-

Nikhil Kamath 41:53 Right

A.R. Rahman 41:53 ... I called him, and he took care of it. And then there were so many conflicts, so many-

Nikhil Kamath 41:58 Right

A.R. Rahman 41:58 ... conflicts happening. It evolved, and then finally, we bought a bigger place. Um, Mr. Ambani came and kindly inaugurated the place in 2013.

Nikhil Kamath 42:07 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 42:07 My mother was there.

Nikhil Kamath 42:09 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 42:10 And we started the KM Conservatory, where it is now, in Chennai.

Nikhil Kamath 42:14 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 42:14 By then, we had some of the young, best piano players in the world, young, young ones.

Nikhil Kamath 42:19 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 42:20 Um, and then it started evolving, and then Oscars happened, all this stuff in 2008, 2009.... I was in a band with Mick Jagger, and-

Nikhil Kamath 42:29 How big is that? Like-

A.R. Rahman 42:31 It's fine.

Nikhil Kamath 42:31 I've always heard of Oscars as being, like, this crazy-ass thing that... What is it actually? Like-

A.R. Rahman 42:38 I think when you see from outside-

Nikhil Kamath 42:40 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 42:40 -it's much more fascinating-

Nikhil Kamath 42:42 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 42:42 ... than being inside.

Nikhil Kamath 42:43 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 42:44 Inside, it's just-

Nikhil Kamath 42:45 It's like an award function.

A.R. Rahman 42:45 It's happening, yeah. It's, it's like, you know, once you get, once you pass one, then everything's the same.

Nikhil Kamath 42:50 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 42:51 Same, same photographs are coming, "Hey, AR, look here." So that's interesting. First, when I got the Critics Award, nobody called me. Then, then it was the Golden Globe. "Hey, that's you! Come, let's take a photograph."

Nikhil Kamath 43:03 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 43:04 Three, three people called. Then the next one is Oscar.

Nikhil Kamath 43:06 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 43:06 You know, a hundred people calling your name.

Nikhil Kamath 43:08 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 43:09 So that I could see that whole e-evolution of how famous that movie and the music, and we're all becoming the same.

Nikhil Kamath 43:17 And how does it make

Nikhil Kamath 43:18 you feel personally? Like, now I'm guessing wherever you are, like, people are probably, like, surrounding you and asking you for this and that, and pictures, and...

A.R. Rahman 43:26 No, actually, I have a lot of private moments in the studio.

Nikhil Kamath 43:30 No, when you're at home, yes. But if you step out?

A.R. Rahman 43:32 I step out very rarely.

Nikhil Kamath 43:33 But whenever you do-

A.R. Rahman 43:34 I'm prepared for it. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 43:36 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 43:36 Uh, when I'm very uncomfortable is when you take a long sixteen-hour flight and you're in transit, when people come in-

Nikhil Kamath 43:44 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 43:45 -and I say, "I'm tired."

Nikhil Kamath 43:46 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 43:47 "No, no, no, but we have to go. Can you take a photograph?" [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 43:50 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 43:51 Anyway, it's part of the game.

Nikhil Kamath 43:52 Is there an on/off button?

A.R. Rahman 43:54 For what?

Nikhil Kamath 43:55 For when some fan walks up to you, and he's... and you're tired, you're in transit.

A.R. Rahman 44:00 Yeah, it is, but rarely. It's not every day, so-

Nikhil Kamath 44:04 See-

A.R. Rahman 44:04 Now I have the mask.

Nikhil Kamath 44:05 They recognize you with the mask?

A.R. Rahman 44:07 No.

Nikhil Kamath 44:08 No?

A.R. Rahman 44:08 Not everyone. Because I don't go with securities. I just go walk alone.

Nikhil Kamath 44:12 Uh, no security anywhere, in Chennai?

A.R. Rahman 44:15 Only, only when I'm doing shows.

Nikhil Kamath 44:17 Right.

A.R. Rahman 44:17 Because when you don't go with security, people don't take you seriously. Only when, like, a group of six people come over, "Somebody's important. Oh, that should be him." So...

Nikhil Kamath 44:25 When you go to dinner in Chennai, for example, you have to-

A.R. Rahman 44:30 That is the irony of my life.

Nikhil Kamath 44:32 You can't.

A.R. Rahman 44:32 That's actually took a toll on my family life. When nobody allows you to eat. Any, even in a marriage, when you go there, when you're eating, people say, "Can I take a photograph?" I said, "I'm eating." "No, but we are going to go. We have to go."

Nikhil Kamath 44:45 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 44:46 So they don't understand that person who's eating is a human being.

Nikhil Kamath 44:48 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 44:49 He's not been bought by you. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 44:51 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 44:52 But then you understand that how important you are in their life, and they don't want to miss the chance. To take their perspective. So I'd never eat in marriages. I just go wish them. I said, "They won't allow it." [clears throat] Whenever I've worked with, like, rock stars abroad-

Nikhil Kamath 45:08 Mm

A.R. Rahman 45:09 ... they're just straight on the face, and, "I don't do that, sorry." Whether it's Hollywood actor or I've been with a couple of them, and they're, they're straight on the face.

Nikhil Kamath 45:16 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 45:16 That's why people don't come, because most of them are like that. They just snap and say, "No, I don't do that"-

Nikhil Kamath 45:22 Mm

A.R. Rahman 45:22 ... straight away. Indian actors are more kind. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 45:26 Why is that?

A.R. Rahman 45:27 I think because we, we are a different race. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 45:31 Mm. We did a call with your sister.

A.R. Rahman 45:34 Mm-hmm.

Nikhil Kamath 45:34 And, uh, she gave us some points.

A.R. Rahman 45:38 Which one? [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 45:39 [chuckles]

A.R. Rahman 45:40 Rehana?

Nikhil Kamath 45:41 Yeah, I think so.

A.R. Rahman 45:42 Okay.

Nikhil Kamath 45:44 You didn't have many friends growing up, she said.

A.R. Rahman 45:47 Yes, I had two friends, actually.

Nikhil Kamath 45:49 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 45:50 Yeah, one was an electronic Greek, geek.

Nikhil Kamath 45:52 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 45:52 We used to love making amplifiers. I still met him. The other one was also an electronic geek. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 45:58 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 45:59 I was fascinated with electronics when I was young.

Nikhil Kamath 46:03 Is it the same even now? Is it tough to be friends for somebody in your position?

A.R. Rahman 46:07 There's no time.

Nikhil Kamath 46:09 Outside of time?

A.R. Rahman 46:11 Just even to spend time with family, I have to make sure that I now pull them on to a dinner or something-

Nikhil Kamath 46:18 Mm

A.R. Rahman 46:18 ... where not everybody is free. They all have their own lives now, right?

Nikhil Kamath 46:24 Do you have friends?

A.R. Rahman 46:25 Uh, all the directors are my friends.

Nikhil Kamath 46:28 Work people don't count.

A.R. Rahman 46:30 I don't ever treat like work. I treat like when I work with, uh, Anand Rai or Imtiaz-

Nikhil Kamath 46:36 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 46:38 ... or, uh-

Nikhil Kamath 46:38 People ask me this question, and I say, "Who are your friends?" I'll say, "Lawyer, CA, all of that." It doesn't add up.

A.R. Rahman 46:44 No, I-

Nikhil Kamath 46:44 It doesn't count. Friends, friends.

A.R. Rahman 46:45 Then I should have a life where I go to a club or-

Nikhil Kamath 46:47 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 46:48 You know, I go to a gym or something.

Nikhil Kamath 46:50 Nothing? No hobbies? Sport, gym...

A.R. Rahman 46:54 No.

Nikhil Kamath 46:55 Nothing?

A.R. Rahman 46:55 No.

Nikhil Kamath 46:57 So if you-

A.R. Rahman 46:57 I love what I'm doing. I love... Because it's not just music now.

Nikhil Kamath 47:01 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 47:01 Now it's meta-humans and AI-

Nikhil Kamath 47:04 Mm

A.R. Rahman 47:04 ... and this virtual reality, and, you know, I have younger people who are joining and doing amazing work.

Nikhil Kamath 47:09 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 47:09 So they are my friends. I just eat with them, hang out with them.

Nikhil Kamath 47:12 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 47:13 Each team is different,

A.R. Rahman 47:16 and, yeah. And I sometimes DM people. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 47:20 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 47:20 If there's a good, uh, person with a farm, uh, interesting-

Nikhil Kamath 47:25 Mm

A.R. Rahman 47:25 ... plantation thing, I DM them, say, "Hey-

Nikhil Kamath 47:26 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 47:26 ... I would like to meet you." Then, you know, it's like random people. It's not just music. It is illustrators and cosplay artists sometimes.

Nikhil Kamath 47:36 Mm. Anyone incredible you've run across like this by DM-ing them? By DM, I'm assuming social media.

A.R. Rahman 47:42 The, the most biggest surprise I got was Spike Lee DM-ing me-

Nikhil Kamath 47:46 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 47:46 ... "Hey, sir, how are you?" [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 47:47 Really?

A.R. Rahman 47:47 Yeah, I was doing COVID time.

Nikhil Kamath 47:49 DM on what platform?

A.R. Rahman 47:50 On Instagram.

Nikhil Kamath 47:51 You're active like that? You use it yourself?

A.R. Rahman 47:53 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 47:53 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 47:54 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 47:54 Can I message you on?

A.R. Rahman 47:55 Of course.

Nikhil Kamath 47:56 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 47:58 But I, I don't pick everything.

Nikhil Kamath 47:59 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 47:59 I see sometimes people-

Nikhil Kamath 48:00 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 48:01 I see some blue, oh, blue tick, like I see, who's that?

Nikhil Kamath 48:03 What would be interesting for me to send you on Instagram that will make you be like, "Thanks, Nikhil, for sending me?" [chuckles]

A.R. Rahman 48:07 I have this investor who's got one billion dollars to invest in your company.

Nikhil Kamath 48:10 [chuckles]

A.R. Rahman 48:12 That'll be-

Nikhil Kamath 48:12 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 48:13 ... immediately, I'll answer.

Nikhil Kamath 48:14 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 48:14 And then we make-

Nikhil Kamath 48:15 You went, you went to the US and met a bunch of AI people, right?

A.R. Rahman 48:18 Yeah, I did.

Nikhil Kamath 48:18 Some of them are my friends.

A.R. Rahman 48:20 Okay.

Nikhil Kamath 48:20 And they mentioned it. You went to Perplexity. You went to-

A.R. Rahman 48:23 Yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 48:23 Who was the most interesting of them all?

A.R. Rahman 48:26 No, actually, it's very, very brief. Uh, Sriram and Aarti came to my house, and we hung out there, and-... I met Srinivasan-

Nikhil Kamath 48:36 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 48:36 -Perplexity.

Nikhil Kamath 48:37 What did you make of him?

A.R. Rahman 48:38 Met, uh, Sam Altman-

Nikhil Kamath 48:39 He's also from Chennai.

A.R. Rahman 48:40 Oh.

Nikhil Kamath 48:40 Uh, what did you make of him?

A.R. Rahman 48:41 Yeah, yeah, he's very good.

Nikhil Kamath 48:42 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 48:42 But he's my son's friend, more than me. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 48:44 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 48:45 Yeah. They hang out.

Nikhil Kamath 48:46 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 48:47 And Sam Altman.

Nikhil Kamath 48:48 Mm. What did you make of Sam?

A.R. Rahman 48:51 Sam, strangely, I-- he was the only person I followed on Twitter for a while-

Nikhil Kamath 48:56 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 48:57 -when ChatGPT came in.

Nikhil Kamath 48:58 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 48:59 And he was like, he was looking at the Sacred Mountain. He was fascinated, I think.

Nikhil Kamath 49:04 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 49:04 Said, "Whatever help you guys need-

Nikhil Kamath 49:06 Mm

A.R. Rahman 49:06 ... uh, in technology," right? But I think this is not just-- Sacred Mountain is about fashion-

Nikhil Kamath 49:13 Mm

A.R. Rahman 49:14 ... merchandise-

Nikhil Kamath 49:15 Mm

A.R. Rahman 49:15 ... music-

Nikhil Kamath 49:16 Mm

A.R. Rahman 49:16 ... wisdom, entertainment.

Nikhil Kamath 49:17 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 49:19 Quite a lot of, big package-

Nikhil Kamath 49:20 Mm

A.R. Rahman 49:21 ... and pretty exhausting if we don't have a big team. So that's, that's what, one of the reasons why we are, like, waiting to, for the big leap, too.

Nikhil Kamath 49:29 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 49:29 We're just preparing all the groundwork on that one.

Nikhil Kamath 49:33 When you hang out with those AI guys, I, I've ended up spending a reasonable amount of time with all of them. In fact, I have to go-

A.R. Rahman 49:42 My first, my first, uh, comment-

Nikhil Kamath 49:47 Mm

A.R. Rahman 49:47 ... with any AI person is, "Don't make people lose jobs." Uh, empower people to remove the causes of generational curses, which comes to like poverty, uh, misinformation-

Nikhil Kamath 50:04 Mm

A.R. Rahman 50:04 ... and lack of tools to create stuff, to telling stories, right?

Nikhil Kamath 50:08 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 50:09 I think this is the... From the beginning, I was like a broken record just saying this, because you don't-

Nikhil Kamath 50:14 But how is that possible?

A.R. Rahman 50:16 That's, if you buy a gun-

Nikhil Kamath 50:18 Mm

A.R. Rahman 50:18 ... you set rules, right? You don't give it to everyone, because they want to shoot everybody. They're going to kill people. It's not free to use.

Nikhil Kamath 50:25 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 50:25 It has restrictions.

Nikhil Kamath 50:26 Like a gun-

A.R. Rahman 50:26 Now, you're not shooting people-

Nikhil Kamath 50:28 No

A.R. Rahman 50:28 ... but you can pull the carpet off, make them jobless.

Nikhil Kamath 50:31 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 50:31 It's like making families going into poverty. So it is the rules. Humans have to set the rules. You have traffic rules.

Nikhil Kamath 50:40 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 50:41 You have immigration rules.

Nikhil Kamath 50:42 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 50:43 You have custom rules.

Nikhil Kamath 50:43 While it might kill jobs in the short term, one can argue that productivity in a society will go up in the long term.

A.R. Rahman 50:50 So we have to shape it up and saying.

Nikhil Kamath 50:51 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 50:52 You can't give a tool which is very, very destructive in making a family go into debt.

Nikhil Kamath 51:00 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 51:00 If somebody just learned something-

Nikhil Kamath 51:02 Mm

A.R. Rahman 51:02 ... and now it, everything can be done with AI-

Nikhil Kamath 51:04 Mm

A.R. Rahman 51:05 ... he's gonna be helpless because he's learned that in college for four years. He spent all his life learning something, and AI can do it in two seconds.

Nikhil Kamath 51:13 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 51:14 So we need to find an alternative way before you jump and give those tools to people.

Nikhil Kamath 51:18 Pretty tough, though.

A.R. Rahman 51:19 No, because Australian now has said, like, no pe- no person can learn-

Nikhil Kamath 51:23 Mm

A.R. Rahman 51:24 ... uh, use their data to learn stuff-

Nikhil Kamath 51:27 Mm

A.R. Rahman 51:27 ... so that to create their identity.

Nikhil Kamath 51:29 Mm. But the new AIs are learning of synthetic data.

A.R. Rahman 51:33 Let it learn. Let it do stuff which humans cannot, rather than-

Nikhil Kamath 51:36 Mm

A.R. Rahman 51:36 ... doing the things which humans can do better. That's what I'm saying.

Nikhil Kamath 51:39 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 51:40 Yeah, so that's why I think art plays a very big tool. Like, you need to make musical theatre, symphonies-

Nikhil Kamath 51:46 Mm

A.R. Rahman 51:47 ... and all the stuff which can entertain people-

Nikhil Kamath 51:50 Mm

A.R. Rahman 51:50 ... and, and they can be a part of that larger system-

Nikhil Kamath 51:53 Mm

A.R. Rahman 51:53 ... economic system.

Nikhil Kamath 51:55 The problem with regulation around AI, in my opinion, is the incumbents will use it to not allow new people to come into AI.

A.R. Rahman 52:05 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 52:06 If there is a young kid in Bangalore trying to build an AI rapper, albeit-

A.R. Rahman 52:10 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 52:11 ... by virtue of regulation, he will be regulated out of the market.

A.R. Rahman 52:15 No, no, not, not that kind of regulation.

Nikhil Kamath 52:15 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 52:16 Not in entertainment. I'm saying in, in finding a way that you should-- All the people running things, the entrepreneurs or the-

Nikhil Kamath 52:23 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 52:24 ... chief, they should be careful in finding, because this is, history is gonna talk about them in future.

Nikhil Kamath 52:30 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 52:30 Like, how they made something which is a mon- monster, as a-

Nikhil Kamath 52:34 Mm

A.R. Rahman 52:35 ... blessing.

Nikhil Kamath 52:36 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 52:36 Right, it could become a monster. It's a blessing and a curse.

Nikhil Kamath 52:38 Mm. I'm actually going back to the US. I've been there a lot this year. I've been, like, working, interning with these AI companies, trying to learn what, what is coming up next, what can be done. I'm going back to find-

A.R. Rahman 52:51 No, the reason with Sacred Mountain is also-

Nikhil Kamath 52:54 Uh

A.R. Rahman 52:54 ... to set a pattern-

Nikhil Kamath 52:55 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 52:55 ... where we use the best of AI-

Nikhil Kamath 52:57 Mm

A.R. Rahman 52:58 ... and we use the best of humans.

Nikhil Kamath 53:00 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 53:00 And there'll be so many jobs-

Nikhil Kamath 53:02 Mm

A.R. Rahman 53:02 ... so much of, uh, human contribution to something, like, as big as this, so that it becomes, uh, an industry by itself.

Nikhil Kamath 53:11 Right. AI in music will hurt musicians, right?

A.R. Rahman 53:19 It'll hurt, but then can AI go and sing with a guitar in a house or in a concert?

Nikhil Kamath 53:23 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 53:24 Or can it teach in the human way, which a, a teacher has, has been teaching, with the spirit, passing on the spirit of music to a-

Nikhil Kamath 53:31 Mm

A.R. Rahman 53:32 ... student? There are so many

A.R. Rahman 53:33 things which comes. Human experience is the, the best word I would say, which it can't do. Anything on TV could be generated now.

Nikhil Kamath 53:41 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 53:42 Right? So I, I think that that's why live concerts, live dance, live musical theatre, symphonies will be respected even more, right? The value of that is gonna go.

Nikhil Kamath 53:54 So in a way, you're saying building more live experiences, businesses, for young people who want to start a business.

A.R. Rahman 54:00 Because we're all now locked in something called the flats, imprisoned in those little boxes. We can't even get out.

Nikhil Kamath 54:06 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 54:07 So live actually gives, goes back to that community feeling, where you enjoy something with the other person, share the experience, the joy. And-

Nikhil Kamath 54:18 Mm

A.R. Rahman 54:18 ... that, like, that is also being reinvented now, live experiences now. The way visuals and everything is time-code sync with, with, um, augmented, uh, musical gadgets-

Nikhil Kamath 54:31 Mm

A.R. Rahman 54:31 ... visual gadgets.

Nikhil Kamath 54:32 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 54:33 So the experience is not as, like, how we watched ten years back. It's much more better now.

Nikhil Kamath 54:38 When you work with people, and you try and figure out what music should be put out-... I'm guessing very often you know so much more about music than these people.

A.R. Rahman 54:47 I don't know anything. [chuckles] I, I go like a blank slate-

Nikhil Kamath 54:51 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 54:51 ... because-

Nikhil Kamath 54:52 Like, if a movie producer tells you, for example, say, in Hollywood, that this is not working, can we change it? What do you do?

A.R. Rahman 54:58 Always change it. I, uh, I don't go with one idea.

Nikhil Kamath 55:03 Right.

A.R. Rahman 55:03 I go with sometimes four ideas, five ideas.

Nikhil Kamath 55:06 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 55:07 Then I throw out two of them.

Nikhil Kamath 55:09 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 55:10 So I keep sometimes three. I play them, and and sometimes you have an instinct to say-

Nikhil Kamath 55:16 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 55:16 "This is gonna work," right?

Nikhil Kamath 55:17 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 55:18 I put that in somewhere. I think they will connect to something. "But this is nice, but can you do this?" "Yeah, I'll add that." It's not a ready-made product which is given.

Nikhil Kamath 55:25 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 55:25 It's a... That is why that will never work. Somebody calls up, "I do a song," and send to me. There are specifics about story, characterisation, vibe, which they like, so.

Nikhil Kamath 55:35 Mm. I was reading this book about Michelangelo, like-

A.R. Rahman 55:38 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 55:38 ... artist extraordinaire, all time, whatever. And he was like, once, while he was sculpting David-

A.R. Rahman 55:46 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 55:47 ... a politician came to him and said, "The nose is too big." So what he did next is he just, he was on a scaffolding. He threw some dust down, and he said he changed the nose, but actually he didn't do anything.

A.R. Rahman 56:00 [chuckles] Okay. Exactly. It's just-

Nikhil Kamath 56:02 A lot of that?

A.R. Rahman 56:04 Yeah, yeah, it happens. See, now it's correct, and you don't know anything. [chuckles] It's just their ego.

Nikhil Kamath 56:10 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 56:10 "See, I made it better."

Nikhil Kamath 56:11 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 56:11 Sometimes. [gentle music]

Nikhil Kamath 56:17 I was in Delhi a couple of days ago, and I was at a friend's house, and I tried the new Meta Glasses.

A.R. Rahman 56:24 Okay. It's coming?

Nikhil Kamath 56:25 It's coming, yeah, which have a... So on the right side, they have a display, and you have to wear a band.

A.R. Rahman 56:32 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 56:33 And then you click like this, and you scroll like this. For the first time, it's starting to feel like it could be the form factor.

A.R. Rahman 56:43 It could be the form, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 56:43 Yeah. Do you have a bet on what could be the form factor of tomorrow, how you interact with AI?

A.R. Rahman 56:50 Uh, so I started researching on virtual reality-

Nikhil Kamath 56:55 Mm-hmm

A.R. Rahman 56:55 ... around from two thousand and fifteen.

Nikhil Kamath 56:56 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 56:57 So I directed my first VR movie in two thousand and sixteen, and I was fascinated because it, it's so real, it's so immersive, and it helps you to go to places which you've never been. Like, the spaces, you can, you can see spaces which... Antarctica, you know-

Nikhil Kamath 57:15 Mm

A.R. Rahman 57:16 ... the Vatican-

Nikhil Kamath 57:17 Right

A.R. Rahman 57:17 ... mm, the Kaaba-

Nikhil Kamath 57:18 Right

A.R. Rahman 57:19 ... and the temple, where pe-people... It's so real, right? And I could probably look at one image for more than five minutes. It's, there's so many details, so much detail-

Nikhil Kamath 57:31 Mm

A.R. Rahman 57:31 ... in it. So it fascinated, and then I, I said, "Why don't we do..." I had a story, and I said, "Why can't we do a movie in this?" This is a path nobody's taking.

Nikhil Kamath 57:39 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 57:39 It is a very difficult path.

Nikhil Kamath 57:41 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 57:41 Lone Ranger, taking it and working. So I did Le Masque now. It's been almost nine years since I directed that one.

Nikhil Kamath 57:49 Wow!

A.R. Rahman 57:49 It's playing in Singapore, and it's playing in Vancouver Dome now.

Nikhil Kamath 57:53 Mm. And you have to wear the VR glasses?

A.R. Rahman 57:55 In Vancouver, no, it's projected in the dome.

Nikhil Kamath 57:57 Right.

A.R. Rahman 57:58 It's been translated to dome thing.

Nikhil Kamath 58:01 So my primary job is of a stock investor.

A.R. Rahman 58:04 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 58:05 So I used to follow Meta now, Facebook then, stock for the duration that they attempted to put a lot of money behind the Metaverse.

A.R. Rahman 58:14 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 58:15 They would spend something like eight, nine billion dollars a year, if I'm not wrong about the number, and eventually they ditched it. So does that... They didn't ditch it, or they stopped the amount of money that was being spent on it?

A.R. Rahman 58:27 I think what happened was, for, for making VR movies, you need to unlearn many things-

Nikhil Kamath 58:33 Mm

A.R. Rahman 58:33 ... for content. So film people come and use their techniques to do virtual reality. It makes people throw up.

Nikhil Kamath 58:41 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 58:42 So because I didn't have any experience in film, I could take the path of what I felt will be right for, uh, for me. So, like, moving the camera would be like-

Nikhil Kamath 58:53 Mm

A.R. Rahman 58:53 ... well, nausea, then-

Nikhil Kamath 58:54 Right

A.R. Rahman 58:55 ... the frame rate, global shutter, and what kind of experience would be great for a person who's a-- It shouldn't be a replacement for cinema-

Nikhil Kamath 59:06 Mm-hmm

A.R. Rahman 59:06 ... but, but an alternate, coexisting, right? So what you don't get in cinema, you'll get on this one. In cinema, you get the ki- kind of community feel, like you all whistled on the same thing.

Nikhil Kamath 59:17 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 59:17 You are all awestruck. I look at the other person, "Oh, that's a great scene." You know, that you can't do in VR. It's very personal.

Nikhil Kamath 59:22 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 59:23 You can't look at your Facebook, Twitter, and-

Nikhil Kamath 59:25 But you can have other people who are also in VR watching something with you.

A.R. Rahman 59:28 No, but this, the ex- like, when you come to Chennai, I'll play you-

Nikhil Kamath 59:32 Mm

A.R. Rahman 59:32 ... my experience. It's installed there.

Nikhil Kamath 59:34 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 59:35 So you'll understand what I'm talking about.

Nikhil Kamath 59:36 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 59:37 Mm-hmm.

Nikhil Kamath 59:38 So I have no agenda today. I don't want to speak about anything. I want to speak about what you want to speak about. So you-

A.R. Rahman 59:43 Well, let me speak about the meta band.

Nikhil Kamath 59:45 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 59:45 Again-

Nikhil Kamath 59:46 Mm

A.R. Rahman 59:47 ... uh, this idea came from when I was hanging out in LA-

Nikhil Kamath 59:51 Mm-hmm

A.R. Rahman 59:52 ... after the Oscars, Grammys, and all this stuff. I said, like, "Why are Indians not creating something for the West?" Or, but not the West, for the whole world, right? Because we've seen great bands coming from, um, Sweden, America, England, Africa, but the only Indian was famous, like Ravi Shankar, Zakir Hussain-

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:13 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:00:13 ... A. R. Rahman, Subramaniam. But then, uh, why can't young India create something like that?

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:20 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:00:21 Because we need to be ahead. We can't go back to what they did, but we need to find a space which India, what India wants to say to the world.

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:29 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:00:30 So that's where Secret Mountain was created.

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:32 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:00:32 And not just to sing Hindi songs or Tamil songs-

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:36 Mm-hmm

A.R. Rahman 1:00:37 ... but being a voice for, from India to the world. Not like Indian voice, but an international voice.... right? So we've been working on it for three years.

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:47 Can you simplify it for me? Like, I watched a bunch of videos of you talking about it.

A.R. Rahman 1:00:53 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:00:53 I saw the characters, who are the band members, the blonde guy, the, the Punjabi guy, all of them.

A.R. Rahman 1:01:00 Mm-hmm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:01 And they all said that my proficiency is in A and B.

A.R. Rahman 1:01:06 Yeah, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:06 And we are a band.

A.R. Rahman 1:01:07 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:08 But what does that mean, really?

A.R. Rahman 1:01:11 Uh, it talks about [sighs] each community, each... Where, where they're coming from, like Africa-

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:17 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:01:17 -North India, South India-

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:18 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:01:19 -Ireland.

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:19 She was the prettiest, the African. [chuckles]

A.R. Rahman 1:01:20 [chuckles] Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:21 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:01:21 We made sure that we gave her-

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:23 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:01:23 ... the full respect. Uh, especially Africa, Ireland, India-

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:27 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:01:28 ... China, they have millions of stories to tell.

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:30 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:01:31 But there's no conduit for that. But now, with, if they're virtual-

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:35 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:01:35 ... there are now mentors for each character. So we, we go into like, "This is what we want to say. Is it okay-

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:40 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:01:40 ... politically? This is the kind of lyrics which are going to come." And the lyricists, they are... I'm composing all the stuff, but then we have partners, like, people like Ed Sheeran have promised to write songs for us. He was hearing a couple of songs, "I love this. I want to do something," so.

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:55 So these are virtual characters?

A.R. Rahman 1:01:57 Virtual characters.

Nikhil Kamath 1:01:58 You are the mentor for, say, one virtual character amongst all of them?

A.R. Rahman 1:02:01 No, I'm mentor for the whole band.

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:02 For the whole band?

A.R. Rahman 1:02:03 Yeah. All of my digital children.

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:05 Right. And they will create songs?

A.R. Rahman 1:02:07 They won't create songs. So they're human people. Like, like in a movie, a James Bond movie comes in. James Bond is a character.

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:14 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:02:14 People keep changing-

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:15 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:02:15 ... but James Bond is constant. Superman is constant. Spider-Man is constant.

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:19 So these people will be constant?

A.R. Rahman 1:02:20 Exactly.

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:21 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:02:21 They'll be constant. The voices might change, because they're all live voices, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:25 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:02:25 Live musicians. Live musicians are going to play with it. So it's not AI-created content, AI composition or anything. It's all live. Though only the face of that-

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:34 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:02:35 They won't have flesh and blood, but what, what going to, what's going to appear on TV or, or in a, in a show will be real because, because of the technology, hologram and...

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:47 And why would this be better than, say, if Ed Sheeran is writing a song for one of those characters-

A.R. Rahman 1:02:52 Mm-hmm

Nikhil Kamath 1:02:53 ... him singing it himself and having his face on it?

A.R. Rahman 1:02:56 Because this is a multicultural band. They stand for the whole world.

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:00 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:03:01 Yeah. There is no band like this.

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:04 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:03:04 Either you see a K-pop band, who are all Koreans. An English band, they're all English. And very rarely you see this kind of eclectic, diverse band coming together.

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:15 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:03:15 Right? And me being not in just one genre of stuff, in film music has taught me to be expansive.

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:23 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:03:24 Right? So I felt like taking the burden on myself-

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:28 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:03:28 ... to see how much I can go dwell in it, making it pop.

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:32 I'm not able to picture it. Do you think an audience will... I mean, the same premise, I guess, in a way, applies to movies, where-

A.R. Rahman 1:03:39 If you look at, uh, did you see the ABBA Voyage?

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:41 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:03:42 You saw that?

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:42 The hologram, right?

A.R. Rahman 1:03:43 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:44 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:03:44 So this is, this is probably a diverse version, and maybe seventh generation of that. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:50 Right. But-

A.R. Rahman 1:03:50 That was, like, created seven years back, right? This is today's technology.

Nikhil Kamath 1:03:55 Was that kind of playing on memory? Because everybody kind of-

A.R. Rahman 1:03:58 Yeah, but then, being a songwriter-

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:00 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:04:00 ... and I just tested all the songs.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:02 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:04:03 When I was testing all the songs, I was trying to see whether they like the music or not.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:07 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:04:08 So all kinds of nationalities, like people from America, England, Ukraine, and it tested very well.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:15 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:04:15 At least four, three to four songs tested like, "I like this," like, not, they, they didn't mention the same song.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:20 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:04:21 They mentioned four different songs.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:22 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:04:22 So I felt like, "Okay, we're on a good track."

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:25 And end case, what will be happening with this?

A.R. Rahman 1:04:28 Uh, they will be performing. They could also perform in three different places, too-

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:33 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:04:33 ... at the same time. Omnipotent.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:35 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:04:35 Because they're virtual, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:37 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:04:37 They could be performing in England, in India, in Dubai, all at the same time.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:41 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:04:42 The different, different teams can come in.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:43 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:04:44 And they could become a series. They could become a movie.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:48 Have you seen NFTs?

A.R. Rahman 1:04:50 Yes.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:51 This kind of like, ha-

A.R. Rahman 1:04:53 I mean, it started like that.

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:54 Can it all parallel?

A.R. Rahman 1:04:54 It started, like, in a way, when Hedara came to-

Nikhil Kamath 1:04:56 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:04:57 It started like, "Can we do a, you know, crypto, NFT kind of thing?" I said, like, "We need a bigger idea."

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:03 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:05:03 The bigger idea is this-

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:05 Right

A.R. Rahman 1:05:05 ... and let it, let other stuff source come from here.

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:08 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:05:09 Because even if that goes off like a fad-

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:11 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:05:11 ... this will stay. The music will stay.

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:13 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:05:13 Uh, the vision of this band stays-

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:16 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:05:16 ... and what they're going to say, so it's a solid idea. So that's one of the reasons why, even after three years, we're all excited about it.

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:24 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:05:24 And every inch we move towards, uh, getting it out, we feel like... Because it's evolving. When we started, it was a, a game engine, Unreal Engine and MetaHumans.

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:37 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:05:37 Now we have AI technology which enhances the face-

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:41 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:05:41 ... enhances, not generative, but s- face swapping and-

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:45 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:05:45 ... all that stuff, which might, used to take a long time. And then even the capture is much faster.

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:51 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:05:51 To clean, cleanse the capture, which sometimes you have some stutters with the costumes.

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:57 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:05:57 I can send you all the footage so you can take a look.

Nikhil Kamath 1:05:58 Yeah, no, I'd love to see it. Tomorrow, if there was a movie with, say, uh, Shah Rukh Khan and a particular actress, not really them, but artificially generated movie, would you watch it?

A.R. Rahman 1:06:13 There are so many movies like that. You don't even know. Half the movies-

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:17 No, but 100% of the movie is like that.

A.R. Rahman 1:06:19 Hundred percent of movie, it depends on the story. It don't do what, what a Shah Rukh Khan will do-

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:25 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:06:25 ... well. You don't try to imitate that. That's, that will be mediocre of this band. They have to do things which only they can do because they are, they have the superpower to do the stuff, right? So that is important, because I've seen a lot of people use AI-

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:40 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:06:40 ... uh, generate a TV serial, which is gen... You know, TV serial actors can do better than what this generates, but you do stuff which-... will be impossible for, uh, production or to finance or to act and do, and give that experience, which is transformative.

Nikhil Kamath 1:06:57 Once you've been able to accu- articulate an expression in voice and program it in-

A.R. Rahman 1:07:02 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:03 ... long term, these AI characters will inevitably-

A.R. Rahman 1:07:06 They're not AI characters. They are real characters.

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:09 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:07:09 It took nine months to illustrate, to get the nose-

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:12 Right

A.R. Rahman 1:07:12 ... the eyes, the smile, and everything.

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:14 No, but these characters will always do better than real-world humans.

A.R. Rahman 1:07:18 No, that's ... We-- I'm the founder of that.

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:22 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:07:22 So I determine, and I've set the rules, the parameters, for what, how much it can talk, how much money it can send to each fan.

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:30 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:07:30 All the stuff will be set by our team, the found-

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:33 Why would it send money to a fan?

A.R. Rahman 1:07:35 That's a secret. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:37 Ah.

A.R. Rahman 1:07:37 So just to be like, I think if they make money, the band makes money-

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:42 Right

A.R. Rahman 1:07:42 ... why can't they share the money to, with people-

Nikhil Kamath 1:07:44 Right

A.R. Rahman 1:07:44 ... who deserve? And so that is the whole ultimate plan, that they benefit not just by watching it, but, you know, that is the whole ... By going to things which humans might be corrupted, but with, with the kind of transparency which systems can run-

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:04 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:08:05 ... and do all the checks and balances-

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:07 Right

A.R. Rahman 1:08:07 ... it is possible.

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:08 I know people have attempted this with social media, where super users-

A.R. Rahman 1:08:14 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:14 ... got a percentage of the traction or the revenue that the social media platform earned overall. So here you're saying because the success of the character is dependent on the amount of traction, which in turn is dependent on the fan, you would share a part of the revenue with that same fan.

A.R. Rahman 1:08:30 Yeah, absolutely. That is the plan.

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:32 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:08:32 And in future-

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:34 So you become the platform which collects-

A.R. Rahman 1:08:35 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:35 ... the rake, in a way.

A.R. Rahman 1:08:36 Even in the, in the future, even the website will have all six of them.

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:39 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:08:39 You can talk to each of them. They'll answer back.

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:42 This is not a real human a- answering back, though, at the back end?

A.R. Rahman 1:08:45 No, the parameters are set by-

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:47 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:08:48 ... all the data, all the, all the, all the information or all the wisdom which each character wants to, which comes from the mentors, which comes from the research of what does an Africa-

Nikhil Kamath 1:08:59 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:09:00 ... an African person-

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:01 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:09:01 ... want the world to hear? What is the unsaid narrative about that?

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:06 In-

A.R. Rahman 1:09:06 Or what does a North Indian wants to, or a South Indian? I just put that because it's, we are different. Like [chuckles] -

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:14 Right

A.R. Rahman 1:09:14 ... a Punjabi is different from a Tamil guy, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:16 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:09:16 And extremes, north and south.

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:19 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:09:19 And a Chinese person, an Irish person, you have great history.

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:24 Right

A.R. Rahman 1:09:24 The great history in every character.

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:26 And you would scrape news to figure out bias and narrative?

A.R. Rahman 1:09:30 No, it is just a-

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:31 Right

A.R. Rahman 1:09:32 ... from a common perspective-

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:33 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:09:33 ... and, and a middle ground, I think when you look at things, there are a lot of unfair things which has happened to many, many races.

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:39 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:09:40 Like, undeniable.

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:41 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:09:42 And even if you look at, uh, the genocide in Africa, which has happened-

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:46 Mm-hmm

A.R. Rahman 1:09:46 ... which is more than any other genocide in the world.

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:49 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:09:50 It's unfortunate, but the world... It is not a political band. They're not going to do political stuff.

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:57 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:09:57 But I feel the gravitas of that is very important for-

Nikhil Kamath 1:09:59 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:10:01 ... uh, a band coming from India, which is just, which is pure in thinking, and which is entertaining, first of all, not boring-

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:09 Mm-hmm

A.R. Rahman 1:10:09 ... telling, advising.

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:10 Would it speak about society?

A.R. Rahman 1:10:12 Of course.

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:13 Yeah. But when you speak about society, you become political.

A.R. Rahman 1:10:17 I think you'll find the balance.

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:18 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:10:18 AI will help. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:21 There's this interesting debate happening in the US now, where if I'm the New York Times, I'm the editor of The New York Times, if a journalist writing an article under The New York Times says something which is defamatory-

A.R. Rahman 1:10:38 Yeah

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:38 ... I'm liable.

A.R. Rahman 1:10:39 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:40 The same question then starts to apply-

A.R. Rahman 1:10:42 Yes

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:42 ... for a large language model.

A.R. Rahman 1:10:44 Absolutely.

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:44 If the output they are throwing out, are they liable?

A.R. Rahman 1:10:47 No, there's so much of responsibility. Yes?

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:48 Mm. They claim not.

A.R. Rahman 1:10:50 No, but then that's why we have to set the parameters.

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:53 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:10:53 I set the pa- Very important. Sometimes you can't say the truth. Just keep quiet. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:10:59 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:11:00 I think because it's music-

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:02 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:11:02 ... and because it's about entertainment, we don't have to go into that stuff unnecessary.

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:06 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:11:07 Um, the conflicts-

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:09 Right

A.R. Rahman 1:11:09 ... it's very important to entertain in a way where people get hope and faith-

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:14 Mm-hmm

A.R. Rahman 1:11:14 ... and yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:16 Someone said, "A passion ceases to be a passion when you truly understand it."

A.R. Rahman 1:11:26 The good thing about music is you never understand it. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:28 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:11:28 It's constant evolution.

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:30 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:11:31 That's why they say, you know, like, if you paint with the right hand constantly, and you get comfortable with it-

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:37 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:11:38 ... uh, you know, tie your right hand and paint with the left hand.

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:41 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:11:42 But then you will find a different way because your mind wants to express-

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:46 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:11:46 ... and the limitation of what-

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:48 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:11:49 ... uh, your left hand is-

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:50 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:11:51 ... will make its own art, and it won't-

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:52 Right

A.R. Rahman 1:11:52 ... be like the comfort zone. "Oh, I can't do that, so I'll do this," and that'll be different.

Nikhil Kamath 1:11:57 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:11:58 So music is also like that. Sometimes you just have to throw all the formulas.

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:01 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:12:02 I have to rethink, I have to see. I have to get there, but I don't want to go this route.

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:07 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:12:07 I'll go on this route. 'Cause you're the first listener. The maker is the first listener, like the cook is the first taster, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:14 Mm. Whenever I cook food, [chuckles] I love it-

A.R. Rahman 1:12:17 You don't taste it?

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:18 No, because I, I don't know what it is. Like, whenever I spend half an hour, forty-five minutes making something, I'm inherently biased into liking what I've made because of the opportunity cost of time that has been invested. You're less judgemental or critical of your own-

A.R. Rahman 1:12:39 No, I'm very critical.

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:40 Right. Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:12:41 When I, um, listen to it a couple of days back, later or-

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:45 Right

A.R. Rahman 1:12:45 ... a week later, you, you know what's working-

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:48 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:12:48 ... what's not working.

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:49 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:12:50 What makes you, "Oh, I love that. Oh, this is boring. I've heard this before."

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:53 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:12:54 ... I do a curation, and then whichever thing I like, sometimes I don't like anything.

Nikhil Kamath 1:12:59 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:13:00 I go back to the drawing board.

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:02 But how do you prioritize something like that, where it's not, it's not what is earning you your wage, but to focus on it enough to not give up?

A.R. Rahman 1:13:13 I think what happens when you do something constantly-

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:17 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:13:17 -you get fatigued.

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:19 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:13:19 Your mind becomes tired.

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:20 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:13:21 And in, in this case, where, um, photography or anything else, poetry or... It's all part of the creative industry. It's not like gambling or going away from something, losing money. It is enhancing your, widening your imagination, widening your confidence in you, that you can do much more.

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:43 Are you still able to do that, pick up new hobbies?

A.R. Rahman 1:13:46 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:46 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 1:13:47 Yeah. Something which doesn't involve a display, because all my life I've been sitting in front of a display.

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:52 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:13:53 So that's one of the reasons I don't play video games, any, no PlayStation or-

Nikhil Kamath 1:13:56 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:13:57 ... Xbox and all that stuff, because I, I don't want to sit in front of a... And I wanted to try something organic, so I'm going, might go into farming a little bit more, so.

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:07 Are you farming now?

A.R. Rahman 1:14:09 Yeah, we have a mom's plot, the trust

A.R. Rahman 1:14:12 plot, so.

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:13 Near the house?

A.R. Rahman 1:14:15 It's one hour from Chennai.

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:16 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:14:17 That's where her samadhi is also there. [gentle music]

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:23 Okay, this is on the work side. Tell us what's going on in the personal side.

A.R. Rahman 1:14:28 Personal-

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:28 By personal, I don't mean like some controversial thing or anything like that. Where is your head space at? How are you looking at society, at music, at... What is occupying mindshare?

A.R. Rahman 1:14:39 I think what's beautiful about the past, uh, I would say eighteen years, is starting the foundation, starting the music school, and, uh, watching miracles happen there. You know, kids, um-

Nikhil Kamath 1:14:55 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:14:55 ... demolishing the whole stigma, saying that this caste is intelligent, this caste is not, demolishing all that stuff. If any kid who's created by God, this, the light of God is in every kid, and the knowledge comes from God. It's not that they are worthy or not.

Nikhil Kamath 1:15:14 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:15:14 If they're taught properly-

Nikhil Kamath 1:15:15 Mm-hmm

A.R. Rahman 1:15:15 ... and we find those kids, they shine, they become an orchestra, and they all play together as one voice, as one emotion. So that's what we discovered, and it's a phenomenal breakthrough, which we are proud as a family. My sister runs the school. I go there. I'm the mentor. I'm the principal.

Nikhil Kamath 1:15:32 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:15:32 And then recently, we went to Canada for the Glenn Gould Foundation. They invited us, and they all played. It's such a great moment to see kids from corporation schools taking a flight, going to Canada-

Nikhil Kamath 1:15:47 Mm-hmm

A.R. Rahman 1:15:47 ... and playing for, you know, billionaires sitting there.

Nikhil Kamath 1:15:50 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:15:50 And that itself is a great statement, and that keeps me going. If I'm the principal of that kind of kids, I need to be shining more-

Nikhil Kamath 1:15:59 Mm-hmm

A.R. Rahman 1:15:59 ... I need to be working more, and that keeps me going. And like people ask me, "What keeps you going?"

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:04 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:16:04 "Is that I need to inspire my, my school children there, my students, where we are teaching incredible artistry, right? To sing or to play the piano, to compose-

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:17 Mm-hmm

A.R. Rahman 1:16:18 ... um, to inspire. Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:22 Do you think humans can innately be altruistic, selfless?

A.R. Rahman 1:16:28 It is how we were brought up.

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:30 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:16:30 I've seen many people, man, many families, uh, any religion, if they are coming from a great family, if their, if their fathers and mothers are selfless and they act upon it-

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:41 Mm-hmm

A.R. Rahman 1:16:42 ... and they create a kind of a system where the kids automatically get inspired, they look up to their father and mother.

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:48 If you go one level deeper-

A.R. Rahman 1:16:50 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:51 -why is being selfless appealing?

A.R. Rahman 1:16:55 I think it is hardwired.

Nikhil Kamath 1:16:57 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:16:58 Like, if you look at every spiritual, uh, teaching in the world-

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:02 Mm-hmm

A.R. Rahman 1:17:03 ... is to serve.

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:04 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:17:05 Only when you serve... Somebody served and built you this house.

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:08 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:17:08 Somebody served and built the road.

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:10 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:17:11 And they might be dead, but their soul is there in every... And somebody built a school.

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:15 But did they do it with the intent of service, or did they do it with the intent of individual gain that they were chasing?

A.R. Rahman 1:17:22 Of course, everybody needs to run the family. But when you think about, uh, they're not, they, they-- You, you can see the sweat.

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:29 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:17:29 You can see the... And everybody wants their work to shine.

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:33 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:17:33 When they want the work to excel, that means it is so. Excel is not mediocrity, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:38 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:17:39 There, the sincerity is very important. The sincerity is what makes them tick-

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:44 Mm-hmm

A.R. Rahman 1:17:44 ... get them another job.

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:46 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:17:47 If I'm not sincere in my music, they're going to throw me out from movie, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:50 I think you're way beyond that. [chuckles]

A.R. Rahman 1:17:52 No, I'm just saying.

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:53 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 1:17:53 I mean, nobody-

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:54 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:17:55 Anybody can be thrown. Anybody can-

Nikhil Kamath 1:17:56 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 1:17:57 ... cease to exist. It is... Because if I'm not sincere to that thing, I'm not sincere to myself.

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:03 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:18:04 I won't be able to sleep if, if I let a mix pass by or a song which could be better-

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:09 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:18:09 ... and I didn't work enough for that. That will be the biggest punishment or self-torture for me.

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:14 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:18:15 For, for at least three to four months, "I should have done that better. I should have done..." So I never give that chance for my mind to torture me [chuckles] even at the cost of getting a bad name from the producer, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:18:27 Mm-hmm. So I'll, I'll share a secret. I was going through some, I would not say bad time, but I would say I was feeling vulnerable because of some issue, being blamed for something that I didn't have anything to do with. And I was sitting and thinking about all these things. When I have been altruistic, is it because the projection of altruism has appeal? Because in the society that... So if, if I go back in time, when I think about it-... all men are competing with each other at some level. The hunter-gatherer, the, the biggest hunter got more validation and importance in the society that he was in, so everybody wanted to be the biggest hunter at that time. And I think with evolution, society has kind of progressed like that. In the capitalistic society-

A.R. Rahman 1:19:25 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:28 -the projection of being selfless-

A.R. Rahman 1:19:31 Mm.

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:32 -is a value add.

A.R. Rahman 1:19:34 So I think we are spiritually oriented.

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:37 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:19:37 If you believe in God, whichever God, there's only one creator, right? We call them in different names. So if I take that path, there might be atheists, I respect everybody. I've taken that path-

Nikhil Kamath 1:19:50 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:19:51 -where I feel like every breath is a blessing to me, every opportunity is a blessing to me, and it comes from one source. It comes from me surrendering, that I don't have to worry. I will be truthful. I'll, you know-

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:06 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:20:07 ... I'll remember you, and he remembers me.

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:10 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:20:11 And if my share, which he wants to give, has to come to me, even if the whole world is against it, it's going to come to me.

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:18 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:20:19 Right? And if I don't deserve something, and if I want that, if it's not my share, it will never come to me. So it's simple. To be peaceful, I take this as a formula. If anybody does... So there's no cause of jealousy.

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:31 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:20:32 If somebody's in a better car-

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:34 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:20:34 -and a better house or-

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:36 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:20:36 -I said, "His share is, his share is coming. It's great. I love it. I praise God for that-

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:42 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:20:42 ... and may he live happy." So you don't have the, the root of jealousy is now killed.

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:47 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:20:49 And if I need to be, if I need something like that, my worthiness has to be improved. Once I'm worthy, suppose I'm going to get a hundred KGs, I need to handle it.

Nikhil Kamath 1:20:59 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:20:59 I need to take it.

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:00 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:21:00 Otherwise, it's going to destroy me. I've seen many people be given something which is very valuable-

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:06 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:21:06 -and that has destroyed their whole lives because they're not able to take that much. So each one gets what their share by becoming worthy of it. Become the vessel, empty vessel, which can-

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:18 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:21:18 -and become cleaner, and then you'll get all that gift. I think this, this, over years, you re- realize that one. "Oh, I didn't get that project. I didn't, I'm not famous-

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:28 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:21:28 -in this area." So you become worthy, you'll get...

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:31 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:21:32 So-

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:32 Do you feel like that? You are probably one of the proudest sons of our country ever.

A.R. Rahman 1:21:39 No, I'm just saying, like, we can get... We, sometimes, we are human, right? "Oh, that music is selling well. It, it crossed two billion streams." I was like, "Fine." [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:50 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:21:51 So my share is always coming to me-

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:53 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:21:54 -and, uh, I'm working for it.

Nikhil Kamath 1:21:55 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:21:56 And each day I'm trying to get, become worthy of something else, and... Right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:01 Mm. I know you follow Islam and-

A.R. Rahman 1:22:05 Mostly Sufism, because-

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:06 Sufism.

A.R. Rahman 1:22:08 Uh, my quest to religion was more spiritual. To, because I've been in... I'm a fan of all the religions, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:17 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:22:17 I've studied Christianity and-

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:19 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:22:19 ... Hinduism and Islam.

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:21 I think every religion has something beautiful about it. Uh, but I also keep trying to figure out the intricacies of what makes one religion different from another and why one works depending on the era that it lives in.

A.R. Rahman 1:22:37 My one problem, my problem is killing people in the name of religion-

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:41 I agree

A.R. Rahman 1:22:41 ... or harming people or abusing people in the name of religion. It's not cool for me. [scoff] Like, I feel like, um, it is a tool to discover greater things, and we have to go, which is the core of humanity, right? And that's one of the reasons why I love music.

Nikhil Kamath 1:22:59 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:22:59 Uh, I love to entertain. I think when I perform, I feel like it's a shrine. We're all enjoying the fruits of, you know, oneness-

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:08 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:23:08 ... in a, in a stadium, where you don't even know. Some people believe, some people don't believe, and they come from different nationalities, different languages.

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:14 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:23:14 But one sound and one happiness and one ecstasy, which is beautiful. That's what the Wonder Men tour is about, which I'm doing.

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:22 Can you tell me more about Sufism? I'm very interested.

A.R. Rahman 1:23:25 Sufism is-

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:26 Somebody gave me two books to read about this.

A.R. Rahman 1:23:28 Okay. The simple thing is to discover yourself.

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:31 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:23:31 How do you discover yourself? Because you have screens.

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:34 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:23:35 Your true self is, uh, screened.

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:38 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:23:39 And to remove those screens, you have to perish.

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:43 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:23:44 So when you perish-

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:45 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:23:46 ... you become a part of the, the light.

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:50 You're saying when you are alive, perish.

A.R. Rahman 1:23:51 Light.

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:51 Take out ego, in a way.

A.R. Rahman 1:23:52 Yeah. So it's like dying before dying-

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:55 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:23:55 ... it says, right? What is death?

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:57 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:23:57 The death of lust, the death of greed-

Nikhil Kamath 1:23:59 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:23:59 -the death of jealousy-

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:00 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:24:01 -the death of judgmentalism.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:02 Bit like Buddhism, take away desire?

A.R. Rahman 1:24:04 No, this is different. This is like when you remove everything-

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:07 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:24:08 ... the drop mingles the ocean. That's it. When there's no drop, there's no ocean.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:12 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:24:12 Metaphorically.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:13 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:24:14 So we are all in the process. We know some people achieve it early, and when they achieve it early, they go off, they pass off. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:20 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:24:21 So when that happens, is your voice becomes the voice of God, your deeds become the voi-- the deeds of God.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:27 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:24:28 Your, your sight becomes the sight of God. So, so your ego is gone, and then you become transparent-

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:36 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:24:36 ... to the divine. So this is the main essence of it.

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:40 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:24:40 So when you say Auliyas, who, the saints, who are like Hajali Saab or Khwaja Saab or-

Nikhil Kamath 1:24:46 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:24:47 Um, so they've achieved that status, and when you go to a place like that, you don't worship them. You go in a place where they're surrounded with spiritual beings, like angels, who are praying constantly because that place is blessed. So when you pray there, it's effective much more.... to God than in a normal place.

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:08 Same with the temple-

A.R. Rahman 1:25:08 It's like a ga-gathering.

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:09 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:25:10 Like, if you go in a place where intelligent people are-

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:13 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:25:13 ... it, it sticks to you.

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:14 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:25:14 You get the knowledge, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:16 Like energy you believe in, in a way.

A.R. Rahman 1:25:18 Energy, correct.

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:19 Like, if you go to a temple which has, like Tirupati, I go every year, you do feel a certain way.

A.R. Rahman 1:25:25 Yeah, there's a secret of every spiritual place, and-

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:27 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:25:27 ... undeniable, I think.

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:29 Every spiritual place?

A.R. Rahman 1:25:30 Yeah. If, if people are going there-

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:32 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:25:33 ... there's a blessing there.

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:34 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:25:35 There's, there's honesty, there is... The commonality of faith is what I love. Like, you might be in a different religion, I might be in a different, but the sincerity of the faith is what is measured, I feel.

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:46 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:25:46 That's what makes you do good things. That's what makes me do good things.

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:49 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:25:50 Not that I'm worshiping a god who's different than you, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:54 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:25:54 So I might build a school. You might build a school.

Nikhil Kamath 1:25:56 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:25:57 And, but everything's benefited, humanity is benefited by that, so.

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:01 Mm. I heard you say in another interview, karma.

A.R. Rahman 1:26:05 Karma? [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:06 Karma. This is leading towards karma as the answer?

A.R. Rahman 1:26:09 Uh, I think in, in, in the belief of, you know, Sufism or in Islam-

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:19 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:26:21 ... um, you're judged by your deeds, right? Not by how much money you have, what car you have, or wh- how famous you are, but your deeds. The deeds... So that's why we are all spiritual. We call us fakirs, spiritual beggars.

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:35 Mm. Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:26:36 We might be rich in money, but poor in spirituality.

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:39 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:26:39 And that's one of the reasons why, um, I consider myself as a spiritual-

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:44 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:26:45 ... beggar. So I go to Dargah, so I sit near the beach or meditate just to get spiritually rich.

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:53 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:26:54 When spiritual richness comes, huh, and the material richness follows.

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:57 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:26:58 Right? If you need it.

Nikhil Kamath 1:26:59 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:26:59 If you don't need it, it's fine. And then there is a aura which comes to you, and which is a blessing which comes to you. So your work becomes successful. You, what you do with intention becomes more, um, I- appreciated, I would say.

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:17 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:27:17 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:19 I ask everybody what is spirituality?

A.R. Rahman 1:27:21 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:21 Some people tell me, they ask me if I'm spiritual. I'm like, "I don't even know what it means." What does spirituality mean to you?

A.R. Rahman 1:27:28 Uh, the good deeds, being kind-

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:30 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:27:31 ... to serve humanity-

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:32 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:27:33 ... and to be respectful to your parents, to your neighbors.

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:35 Is that morality or spirituality?

A.R. Rahman 1:27:37 It is spiritual.

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:38 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:27:39 I mean, these are all part of Sharia. If you l-look at smiling is a part of Sharia. Smiling at someone is a big- biggest charity. If you don't have money to give-

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:48 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:27:48 ... at least smile at them.

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:49 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:27:49 You know? So the beauty of, uh... I mean, I'm just a student. I, I'm not an expert in anything.

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:58 Mm, mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:27:58 Don't take me seriously. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:27:59 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:28:00 I'm constantly trying to imbibe, and I don't read stuff. I want to experience things, and then I realize, okay, that's true.

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:08 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:28:09 I don't read something and believe something, which is, "Ah, this is what it says, and I believe in it." But I want to knock at a door, I should get an answer, whether it's music, whether spirituality, and that's how my life is. I test out everything.

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:22 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:28:23 Right? So even music-

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:26 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:28:26 ... when they say something is good, everybody says, "Oh, that's a hit song. Listen to it."

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:29 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:28:29 If it's not good enough for me-

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:31 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:28:31 ... I then throw it out. [chuckles] It has to do something to my heart. It has to do something to my soul. And that's why I don't care when some song, some of my songs fail.

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:41 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:28:41 I say, "I know it's going to come back."

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:43 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:28:43 And three years later, "What a song!" they say. I say, "Yeah, I knew it."

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:45 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:28:46 So that self-validation is very important to find, believe in your work and find why it is not-

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:54 So in a way, you want to give more than you take, if all-

A.R. Rahman 1:28:57 Music is giving-

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:57 things were balanced

A.R. Rahman 1:28:58 ... actually, right? Music is giving.

Nikhil Kamath 1:28:59 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:28:59 And I'm getting so much love from people.

Nikhil Kamath 1:29:01 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:29:02 I'm so... I feel worthless most of the times, like, "Do I need this? Do I deserve this?"

Nikhil Kamath 1:29:07 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:29:08 Makes you work harder.

Nikhil Kamath 1:29:09 Mm. When I think of Indians, I think of, you know, politics, there is one person who comes to mind. I think of cricket, maybe Sachin and Virat come to mind. I think of artists, acting-wise, maybe, I don't know, Amitabh Bachchan, somebody like that comes to mind. When I think of music, not I, when the country thinks of music, you come to mind. They say that

Nikhil Kamath 1:29:41 it's easy to be godlike if you get the validation and devotion that comes with being known as God. It's much harder for a normal person to be godlike by virtue of that.

A.R. Rahman 1:30:00 So who's the god?

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:01 You're known as the god. [chuckles]

A.R. Rahman 1:30:02 No, no, I'm not. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:03 I mean, God of music in this domain, for sure.

A.R. Rahman 1:30:06 No, they just, yeah-

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:07 I am, I am such a big fan. Like, your song, Tu Hi Re, I think I must have heard that song through so many, like, heartbreaks and falling in love and stuff like that. Uh, and maybe you wrote it for a completely different reason, but-

A.R. Rahman 1:30:21 Actually, you know-

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:22 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 1:30:22 ... strangely, what happened was-

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:23 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 1:30:24 Mani wanted a, he wanted a love song.

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:27 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:30:28 I was like, "What love song?" And I was so famished, and I was, like, sleeping, and then this tune was coming into my mind. [humming]

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:36 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:30:36 I said, "It's so slow."

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:37 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:30:38 So anyway, it's coming. It's like, coming in my dream.

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:41 Right. [chuckles]

A.R. Rahman 1:30:42 So I took my... I used to have a tape recorder, like a mini cassette, so I just recorded it. And so next day, he said, "Where is the tune?" I said, "I got one tune." He's like, "It's okay. Let's record." Then we recorded it, and so for the, for the singers-

Nikhil Kamath 1:30:58 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:30:58 ... I was, I wanted, uh, SPB or Jayasudas.

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:02 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:31:02 So I put also Hariharan's name, and then I-

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:04 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:31:04 ... picked. I don't do that anymore. So I prayed and picked one. It-...and Hariharan's name?

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:10 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:31:10 So Hari is a very, very unusual singer for that song, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:14 Mm. Why is that?

A.R. Rahman 1:31:15 Because he's a ghazal singer.

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:16 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:31:16 And even now, when he sings concerts, 'Tu Hi Re, Re!' [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:20 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:31:20 He does all this stuff.

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:22 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:31:22 He doesn't stand on one note, because it's-

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:23 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 1:31:23 ... 'cause that's his style, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:25 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:31:25 So we recorded it, and then, uh, Mani shot it.

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:29 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:31:30 Then he called up. He said, "AR, this song is doing something. I just put it on it, and it's magic."

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:35 Ah.

A.R. Rahman 1:31:36 "Um, I think we need to do a BGM, you know, when she's running." Then we added all that music in it. So it had a interesting history. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:43 Mm-hmm. No, in-incredible song.

A.R. Rahman 1:31:46 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:47 Love that song. But now that you're on this, in this space, like, you're essentially God to all of us.

A.R. Rahman 1:31:54 No, no, no, I'm not God.

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:55 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 1:31:56 I'm a servant only. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:31:57 How does that make you feel?

A.R. Rahman 1:31:58 It's a double-edged sword, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:00 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:32:01 It's like they say, there's no fame without blame. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:05 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:32:06 It just takes one second for people to completely turn the coin.

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:09 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:32:10 So I don't take it seriously.

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:11 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:32:11 I said, "I'm sincere to what I believe in," and even if I shout at people, I say, "Sorry, guys." I'm human, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:20 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:32:20 Sometimes the pressure, I shout at people, might be.

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:23 Mm. You don't look like somebody who can shout at people.

A.R. Rahman 1:32:25 Ah, come to my studio.

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:27 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 1:32:27 Not always.

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:28 Yeah, you seem like you have a very calm-

A.R. Rahman 1:32:30 I'm calm most of the time, but-

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:31 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:32:32 ... for me, my work sincerity is-

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:35 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:32:35 ... it demands a lot. If something is not happening, then I'm failing myself and failing the client, failing the people.

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:41 When was the last time you shouted at somebody, and for what?

A.R. Rahman 1:32:43 Yesterday. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:44 Really? [laughing]

A.R. Rahman 1:32:47 No.

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:47 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 1:32:48 No, just because it's a very demanding work.

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:50 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:32:51 And suppose we're having seven seven tracks, and then you want the strings to be loud or even, you know, EQ-ing of strings or-

Nikhil Kamath 1:32:56 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:32:57 Uh, I need speed. I like... [tsking] Musicians are passionate, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:01 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:33:01 You don't want somebody to take, like, thirty minutes to-

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:04 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:33:04 ... get something which I think would just take one minute.

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:08 Mm. Is that what irritates you, something taking longer than it should?

A.R. Rahman 1:33:12 No, no, I'm just saying, like-

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:13 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:33:14 ... is my, my voice will be a little louder. The dynamics will be forte, not piano. [chuckles] In musical language, they say.

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:21 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:33:21 Anyway.

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:23 What are you looking forward to at this point? What, what are you scared of, and what are you looking forward to?

A.R. Rahman 1:33:28 Scared of?

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:29 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:33:30 All the scary things have already happened in my life. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:33 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 1:33:33 My father's death-

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:34 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 1:33:34 ... my grandmother's death, my mother's death.

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:36 Yeah, uh.

A.R. Rahman 1:33:37 And, um, I'm looking forward-

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:41 And does it affect you in that order?

A.R. Rahman 1:33:44 It did, right. It made me, like, completely numb.

Nikhil Kamath 1:33:47 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:33:47 It made me zen mode. It made me believe that everybody's gonna die. So it kind of... [tsking] Like, catching on to something and loving something deeply is a, is a, unfortunately-

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:01 Anti-spirituality. [chuckles]

A.R. Rahman 1:34:03 It's not anti-spirituality! As a loving, the true love is a love for God-

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:08 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:34:08 ... I feel like. Every other love is tested.

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:10 Mm. And when you say God, you, you in a way are saying universe.

A.R. Rahman 1:34:14 The, the Creator.

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:15 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:34:15 The Creator. So, and I think we can learn from everything, from the plant, from the sea, from the mountain-

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:22 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:34:22 ... from the sky-

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:23 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:34:23 ... from a bird, from a microorganism.

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:26 Is that why your music is most inspired by nature?

A.R. Rahman 1:34:29 Absolutely.

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:30 Mm. Also mathematically-

A.R. Rahman 1:34:32 The enormity of, uh, and the complexity of every creature-

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:37 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:34:37 ... every creation, and in the galaxy, we're just not even a dot, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:42 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:34:42 And the multiple galaxies, and it makes you humble-

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:46 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:34:46 ... how small you are, how... The micro and macro, they say, right? [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:52 Do you also look at that technically? Like, in my world of trading, we have Fibonacci sequences, the golden ratio of-

A.R. Rahman 1:34:59 Mm

Nikhil Kamath 1:34:59 ... what, and try to find that in music or create music with that?

A.R. Rahman 1:35:03 No, no, I just go by instinct. I go by-

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:05 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:35:05 ... what would be interesting and what would be a good combination of things. And...

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:10 What are you most looking forward to?

A.R. Rahman 1:35:12 I'm looking forward to the success of Secret Mountain, if it deserves.

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:16 Uh.

A.R. Rahman 1:35:16 Because we are putting all our hard work, and-

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:18 Uh

A.R. Rahman 1:35:19 ... we want to create something extraordinary from India to the world. And because we, we put three years of our life in it.

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:28 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:35:29 You want to make this the most significant, um, entity from India to the world.

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:37 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [guitar strums]

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:42 Are you bored of movies now?

A.R. Rahman 1:35:43 No, I'm never bored.

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:44 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:35:44 Because, you know, if a Western artist has to do an album, they have to think about it. I'm getting help from the script, from the director-

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:53 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:35:53 ... from the screenwriter, from the lyricist. My part is just music, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:35:58 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:35:58 So each album is different because-

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:00 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:36:01 ... the different combination of different consciousness comes together.

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:05 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:36:05 And we create with the intention of creating something great. We push ourselves into, and then we have live feedback.

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:12 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:36:13 Each song is, you know, how it's received and how people... So that magic has not changed at all, like, what you get from people, that instant feedback and the adulation in the concert. It's a great thing.

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:25 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:36:26 I never want to lose that. [chuckles] And if I want to do anything, like, I want to do a private album-

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:31 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:36:32 ... instrumental album or a collaborative album, I'm free to do it.

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:36 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:36:36 Nobody's stopping me.

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:37 Mm. The big project right now is Ramayan?

A.R. Rahman 1:36:41 There's Ramayan. There's, uh, so many, Secret Mountain-

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:45 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:36:46 ... and, um, couple of English ones going on, and, and an Arabic movie [chuckles] I composed.

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:54 Really?

A.R. Rahman 1:36:54 Horror movie-

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:55 Wow

A.R. Rahman 1:36:56 ... called Bab. Then-

Nikhil Kamath 1:36:58 Namit showed me parts of Ramayan.

A.R. Rahman 1:37:00 Namit, sure, yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:37:00 It, it looks incredible.

A.R. Rahman 1:37:02 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:37:03 Looks, sounds incredible.

A.R. Rahman 1:37:04 Thank you. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:37:05 Do you think there's a future to the movie business, the movie theatre business?

A.R. Rahman 1:37:09 So theatre business is not going anywhere. It's going to stay, but it should be reinvented.

Nikhil Kamath 1:37:14 ... Can you tell me how?

A.R. Rahman 1:37:16 Because over a hundred years now, we are still seeing a rectangle screen.

Nikhil Kamath 1:37:20 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:37:20 And of course, some three D and all the stuff comes in. I think immersive thing is the future. Like the Sphere-

Nikhil Kamath 1:37:27 Mm-hmm.

A.R. Rahman 1:37:27 -what, what's doing in Vegas. Everything looks so unbelievably spiritual, and it's something very human about watching with that quality.

Nikhil Kamath 1:37:38 I've never been there, but I've seen the videos.

A.R. Rahman 1:37:40 It is incredible.

Nikhil Kamath 1:37:41 Yeah?

A.R. Rahman 1:37:42 Yeah, I think that's the future, because you can never get that in home entertainment or, or a phone or anything. It's experience that kind of, it's incredible.

Nikhil Kamath 1:37:52 So you're saying everybody can afford a big screen? Not everybody, but a lot of people can afford a big screen at home. So the difference between a rectangle in your house and the rectangle in a movie theatre can't just be ten extra size. It has to be a bunch of other things.

A.R. Rahman 1:38:07 Exactly. Exactly, yeah. Especially now, because now that we are being bombarded with the content, I hate that word, [chuckles] that you need to reinvent the way pe- movies are made. To get there, so that they don't go to there, "Ah, it's boring. I know what's going to happen, so let me look at who's, you know, Instagram me or what's happening."

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:29 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:38:30 So that goes away because you're all stacked and completely involved. All the senses are active. In, in Le Musk, uh, we have scent, we have haptics, we have motion, we have 3D, we have ambisonic sound. All the stuff comes in together, and that's a different experience.

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:48 But can a theatre screen afford that?

A.R. Rahman 1:38:51 That's not our problem. When people make money-

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:53 Right

A.R. Rahman 1:38:53 ... they would, they would have to invest more money.

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:55 But there's probably-

A.R. Rahman 1:38:56 Even each metro can have one.

Nikhil Kamath 1:38:58 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:38:58 Right? And, uh, we don't even have a proper symphony hall in any of India, not nowhere. And musical theatre is another important aspect of entertainment, which could come in because we have so many talented singers, actors here, and they're all looking at movies. And if you look at, uh, London West End or Broadway or Canada or Australia, they have musical theatre, and it travels. Once you make one big hit, it travels all over the world forever, for, like, years, forty years, fifty years. It's there. Look at Sound of Music or Phantom of the Opera. We have great stories to tell, and I've seen, when I was, as a kid, I've seen Parashuram, Ravaneswaran, and that's it. Now, I think the only one which I keep seeing is Mowgli Aslam. Nothing else significant in India. I went for The Phantom premiere at NMACC.

Nikhil Kamath 1:39:56 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:39:57 Incredible. And that's probably the one, only place which is world-class in India.

Nikhil Kamath 1:40:02 Is it a chicken and egg problem? Because the discretionary spending power of Indian audience is limited to a certain number.

A.R. Rahman 1:40:12 Can you just think about an airport?

Nikhil Kamath 1:40:14 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:40:15 "Oh, the airport is very costly. Let's go on trains." We can't. It's a necessity for... People need the-- They, they have a right to have proper infrastructure. It's very important. There should be enough places where, which brings hope-

Nikhil Kamath 1:40:28 Right

A.R. Rahman 1:40:29 ... pride, you know, entertainment. If you don't deliver that, they take a flight. They go to Germany, watched Hans Zimmer and Phantom of the Opera in London, and they come in, "Oh, that's so great!" Like, what about the person who can't afford that? Why, they don't deserve that? They also deserve to see. You, you are influencing minds, which can become the next Einstein or Ramanujan or, you know, Steve Jobs. This is the way you should inspire them, not... They don't need to see that only in America or England. Like, our country is now prosperous enough too. It's important to be in a chorus to say that we need this. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:41:06 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:41:07 This is for future India, for our youth, for our children, to experience all this stuff.

Nikhil Kamath 1:41:13 If you were to give some advice, so our audience is-

A.R. Rahman 1:41:15 I'm not, I'm not good at advices. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:41:17 [chuckles] Our audience is largely wannabe entrepreneurs, young, from India, who want to know what business to start, what company, what startup. In the live event space, like there's Book myshow, there's District, there's a couple of concert organizers. If you could advise our audience to start a business in live, it's growing the fastest in terms of rate of growth versus other form of entertainment. What could somebody start?

A.R. Rahman 1:41:50 Simple thing-

Nikhil Kamath 1:41:51 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:41:51 ... is finding the void. Um, I find void in, in art.

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:00 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:42:00 Artistic stuff, fashion.

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:03 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:42:03 Fashion has taken, I mean, definitely coming, like, it's much better now. But even furniture, like this furniture you have here, you can't buy it.

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:13 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:42:15 Nobody makes it. They make something very boring.

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:17 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:42:17 It's copy-pasted from hundred years back.

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:22 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:42:22 There's no imagination in any kind of furniture, which I see.

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:26 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:42:26 It comes from Indonesia or China or Malaysia.

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:30 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:42:30 I see the-

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:30 I think it's because of scale

A.R. Rahman 1:42:30 I see a void there. Uh?

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:32 It's because of scale that China has in producing these.

A.R. Rahman 1:42:35 But we should have scale. We have, like-

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:36 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:42:37 ... more population than China, right?

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:39 But they-

A.R. Rahman 1:42:39 And-

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:39 ... they're producing for the world, so they get the cost. I see the same thing-

A.R. Rahman 1:42:43 Who's, who's asking not export? [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:42:44 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:42:45 And, uh, electronics, we still don't have, um, like my keyboard, I wish I play a Indian keyboard in my lifetime. No, it's from Japan or US or Germany or London. Never from India.

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:00 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:43:01 Musical theatre, of course.

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:02 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:43:03 In my thing, definitely musical theatre, having an orchestra in every state is very important. Having a world-class, like a sphere kind of a thing-

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:10 Mm-hmm

A.R. Rahman 1:43:11 ... changing entertainment. Entertainment is something which people need, people bored.

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:16 Mm.... but if a sphere costs five hundred million dollars-

A.R. Rahman 1:43:19 No, I don't think it's that.

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:20 No?

A.R. Rahman 1:43:21 Everything's so slashed up, like-

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:22 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 1:43:22 ... all the LEDs you get so cheap now.

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:24 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:43:25 I mean, at that time, maybe it would have costed that much money.

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:28 Mm. Not anymore, you think?

A.R. Rahman 1:43:29 Not anymore. I think definitely with the latest technology, it's much, it's probably one-hundredth of the price now.

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:36 Right. [chuckles]

A.R. Rahman 1:43:37 And you don't need that big a sphere, like-

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:39 Would that be something, if somebody comes with a very interesting business pitch to build, one of our young friends, would you be interested in partnering? [chuckles]

A.R. Rahman 1:43:48 Bring them in. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:49 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:43:49 Bring them in, we'll create the content for that.

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:51 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:43:52 We'll create everything.

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:53 Right.

Nikhil Kamath 1:43:54 [gentle music] Okay, I mean, I have no questions per se left. Last part-

A.R. Rahman 1:44:01 Ah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:02 Anything else you want to say? Fleeting thoughts about the world, society. What are, what is occupying your mind space that you're actually thinking about?

A.R. Rahman 1:44:16 I, I stopped seeing the news literally from 2000, 2001, after the war.

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:22 Smart man. I think most people should stop.

A.R. Rahman 1:44:24 And whenever I tried, sometimes, you know, I forget and go into streaming, and I see, and then I get sick.

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:29 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:44:29 So I think the best choice for anybody-

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:34 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:44:34 ... is to look at your own family, your own welfare, your own parents, your kids, and be kind to your friends-

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:41 Mm

A.R. Rahman 1:44:41 ... your neighbors. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:42 Mm.

A.R. Rahman 1:44:43 And because if you think about the world, what's going to happen to the world-

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:46 Yeah

A.R. Rahman 1:44:47 ... you miss what is going to happen to your family. If you look after your family, the world will take care of itself. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:51 Makes sense. I think even back in the day, world was going through problems. It's just today we are seeing the problems.

A.R. Rahman 1:44:56 Now we're seeing everything, like, this close.

Nikhil Kamath 1:44:59 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:44:59 So every, every problem looks, like, big.

Nikhil Kamath 1:45:01 Yeah, like now we are wo- wondering why is some crime happening in some corner of Africa. I'm sure it was happening fifty years ago.

A.R. Rahman 1:45:07 Absolutely. Not that we are insensitive about it.

Nikhil Kamath 1:45:10 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:45:11 I think we just definitely have to develop a great justice system, social.

Nikhil Kamath 1:45:15 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:45:16 But it's important not to get disheartened and lose your faith in humanity, because you are humanity. Each one of us is humanity.

Nikhil Kamath 1:45:23 Right.

A.R. Rahman 1:45:24 Our good and bad affects humanity. It's very important.

Nikhil Kamath 1:45:27 Okay. Thank you so much for doing this. Would you like to finish with a song? Is it possible?

A.R. Rahman 1:45:32 [chuckles] I'll play. I'll send you a clip. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:45:34 If I give you a guitar, would you like to...?

A.R. Rahman 1:45:36 Mm, I don't play guitar much.

Nikhil Kamath 1:45:38 I can play if you sing, if you tell me what chord to play.

A.R. Rahman 1:45:41 Wow. I don't know what to play. I'm just, I'm in talking mode now.

Nikhil Kamath 1:45:46 But you can do one minute. It'll look really nice.

A.R. Rahman 1:45:48 What to sing?

Nikhil Kamath 1:45:49 Just bring that guitar from my bedroom now.

A.R. Rahman 1:45:51 Bedroom guitarist, huh?

Nikhil Kamath 1:45:53 Bedroom guitarist. [chuckles]

A.R. Rahman 1:45:55 Give me the... Okay, it's in tune?

Nikhil Kamath 1:45:57 It's in tune, I think. Yeah, should be in tune. I'll play a chord, you tell me if it sounds in tune. I'll play. [guitar playing]

A.R. Rahman 1:46:04 Play a minor chord. [humming] Tere Ishq Mein Jee Raha Hun Main. No, what, what chord is that?

Nikhil Kamath 1:46:15 A minor.

A.R. Rahman 1:46:16 And go to E major. [guitar playing] So E mi- A minor to E major.

Nikhil Kamath 1:46:20 Okay.

A.R. Rahman 1:46:21 Okay?

Nikhil Kamath 1:46:22 Ready.

A.R. Rahman 1:46:23 So go A minor. [guitar playing] Go on, just A minor, and then when I... I'll say change. [singing] Tere Ishq Mein Jee Raha Hun Main. Tere Ishq Mein Jee Raha Hun Main. [humming] Oh!

Nikhil Kamath 1:47:20 Thank you. [chuckles] That was fun. [upbeat guitar music] I'd love to come one day and sit in your studio when you're making a song.

A.R. Rahman 1:47:31 Come, come, come.

Nikhil Kamath 1:47:31 I'll sit quietly in the corner.

A.R. Rahman 1:47:34 I'll torture you. [laughing]

Nikhil Kamath 1:47:34 I'll sit quietly in a corner and make no noise.

A.R. Rahman 1:47:36 Come, come, yes, yeah. I, I have a studio here, too.

Nikhil Kamath 1:47:38 In Bombay?

A.R. Rahman 1:47:39 Yeah, Andheri.

Nikhil Kamath 1:47:40 Yeah.

A.R. Rahman 1:47:40 A big complex.

Nikhil Kamath 1:47:41 When, when are you making a song next?

A.R. Rahman 1:47:43 Today, tonight. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:47:45 Really?

A.R. Rahman 1:47:45 Yeah. [chuckles]

Nikhil Kamath 1:47:46 You want to go make a song now?

A.R. Rahman 1:47:48 Yeah.

Nikhil Kamath 1:47:48 What do you sing? [guitar strumming]