No PriorsNo Priors Ep. 76 | With Ramp Co-Founders Eric Glyman and Karim Atiyeh
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
105 min read · 20,840 words- 0:00 – 3:17
Introduction to Ramp
- SGSarah Guo
(music plays) Hi, listeners, and welcome to No Priors. Today, we're here with Erik and Karim, the co-founders of Ramp, one of the fastest growing fintech companies of all time. We'll talk about the path to self-driving money, how they make AI and systems thinking fundamental to every part of Ramp, and why using AI in financial services is not as risky as people might think. Welcome Erik and Karim.
- EGElad Gil
Well, today, we're super excited to have Erik and Karim from Ramp joining us, so thank you so much for coming.
- EGEric Glyman
Thanks for having us. It's great to see you both.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Yeah. If you could tell us about the origins of Ramp, how y'all got started, what your focus on today, what roles you play at the company.
- EGEric Glyman
Ramp, in some ways, is sort of the sequel or taking our last business forward. We, we started about a decade ago at a business called Paribus, uh, back in 2015. I, I would probably reframe it now as a, as an AI agent company. Essentially, what it did is, let's say, you bought something from Amazon, Best Buy, Macy's, whatever. Every store would guarantee you that the next week a TV went on sale, you could get the difference back if you asked. So we built ... It was an email app. We, um, scanned or ... you alluded to this earlier, but I just wanted to confirm that when you say, "The better they got, the more wasteful they would get."
- SGSarah Guo
Yeah.
- EGEric Glyman
We launched this. Within a year, we had almost a million members and, uh, we had a life-changing offer from Capital One to buy the company. So we were thinking a lot about, first, how do you turn data into savings? Um, uh, we didn't know the first thing about credit cards. We learned it and we saw there was a great large industry, very profitable, but deeply misaligned with customers and people were obsessing over the question of, "How do you get people to spend more money or more points?" And we got very interested in the question of, you know, if you actually listen to people, they don't want points or cashback. They actually want more in their bank account. The best way to do it is not get people to spend but get people to not ... Put differently, like, not spending $100 in the first place is a hundred times better than getting a dollar or 1% back on it. And so we got obsessive. Wow, what if you put Paribus in a card? What if you had, you know, a card and software that was designed to get people to spend less in the first place that seems more aligned with customers, a different way to go to market, and, uh, fundamentally a better product? Um, and so back in March of 2019, we, uh, incorporated the company. Uh, today, we're just shy of five and a half years old. And, um, I, I, I would say a lot of what we're working towards today is, um, you know, this question of can you have, you know, self-driving money in an organization? Um, can you build, um, really the primitives? You know, can ish from one place, issue cards, make payments of all kinds, manage approvals, even automate accounting? Um, but really what we're doing is when you have the right primitives, abstracting away all the tedium of you don't need to add receipts to a transaction. You tap a card, we pull the receipt from your email, and you're done.
- SGSarah Guo
Yeah.
- EGEric Glyman
You don't need to tag every transaction in how it should be booked in your, uh, books and records. Uh, and so today, um, 25,000 businesses use it from, um, small startups to Shopify to Boys & Girls Club of America to farms to anything in between. Um, and, um, you know, so that's how we got into, uh, what we do, and, um, I'm, um, the CEO and run a lot of the, um, you know, business functions. Karim is CTO, um, of course technical, but also we can get into it, um, oversees even, um, you know, marketing other functions that we see, think are becoming more technical.
- SGSarah Guo
It's been an amazing run
- 3:17 – 8:13
Working with startups
- SGSarah Guo
over, um, five years. You know, a lot of the value you're talking about are, like, as you said, for organizations. And I remember talking to you guys when you were just getting started. You were, like, kind of discovering that there was all this value in businesses and how businesses spend instead of, like, your first company was more consumer-oriented. Like-
- EGEric Glyman
Yeah.
- SGSarah Guo
... how'd you decide to, like, make that shift and, like, how, you know, learning about that audience investing in it?
- KAKarim Atiyeh
I'd say, I'd say a lot of the, like, really ideation phase of, of Ramp, we were, um, talking to a lot of our friends, people in, in our community, and it just so happens that a lot of them were either starting early stage companies or joining early stage companies. Um, and a lot of the, the, the problems they were facing at a larger scale were some of the ones that we're trying to solve for consumers first. Um, and the, the, the funny thing with, with, uh, businesses is the, the, the better they got and the larger they got, they actually ... The more wasteful they would get and the less they would know about their-
- EGEric Glyman
Yeah. (laughs)
- KAKarim Atiyeh
... their spend-
- EGEric Glyman
It's up for investors. Yeah. (laughs)
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Like, not only is it, like, a more interesting, uh, uh, and mo- and, and in some cases, like, bigger problem to solve, it just, like, scales with success in, in some ways. So, like, the, the, the better companies were even more interesting opportunities for us. So, uh, we, we went after that. And, and there was, I'd say, like, another realization we had early, um, around, uh, like, you look at the user experiences of, of different products out there and the ones we use as consumers on a day-to-day. Like, they obsess over every single interaction, every single flow. Like, Instagram's amazing. Robinhood did that very, very well for trading stocks and investing. And then those same people who use these apps in their daily lives show up at work and are expected to use tools that were built in the '80s and are incredibly slow and very clunky. And there just wasn't a good feedback loop between, like, what the people wanted to use at, at, at, at work and what they, what they were, they were using in their daily u- lives. And we saw an opportunity to really bring a lot of consumer thinking around, like, UI/UX obsession to com- complicated business problems.
- SGSarah Guo
Where did the first, um, savings thesis come from? Like, what, you know, if, if the idea is, like, spend less money and have less waste-
- EGEric Glyman
Yeah.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Yeah.
- SGSarah Guo
... for consumers on, like, there's a price change. Like, "You go deal with this." That sounds amazing. Like, what was the first hook for Ramp?
- EGEric Glyman
First was just a basic business problem of, uh, I think most startups, their biggest battle is people not giving a shit. (laughs) Like, you work on ... It's so hard on this software and there's a million other pieces, you know, apps, tools, cards. How are you gonna stand out? And we realized there was this gap in the market. Most of the c- credit card ecosystem was really designed around kind of ego and excess and use my card and get lounge access and points and you can fly to exotic places. And it just was so different from what business owners and CFOs and people I know who are trying to build enduring profitable businesses. So we felt very at odds. And so some of it was just, um-... thought there was a, a large unmet need.
- SGSarah Guo
That's interesting. So just like the cultural premise of the card was very different?
- EGEric Glyman
Yeah.
- SGSarah Guo
It's not like a, let's say, like Amex-
- EGEric Glyman
Yeah.
- SGSarah Guo
... fancy for the individual.
- EGEric Glyman
The luxury that Amex, I believe, was, was really owning and building was almost like an '80s conception of, like, luxury, of, like, you have, like, lounge access and it's covered in mahogany and it's super cool. And, like, luxury in the 2020s is, you know, I can go to a yoga class at 2:00 PM-
- SGSarah Guo
(laughs)
- EGEric Glyman
... because I have the timer. I'm gonna green juice 'cause it, I'm healthy and, and it was just very different. And I think the thing that was so, uh, I think people were missing is, uh, time. Um, people had, um, very little time, and so we tried to focus on not just saving money, but saving time and, and, and to kind of zoom into where, you know, some of our first products was you'd see these great early stage startups, really promising, starting to build traction, and then they say, "Great, um, uh, show me what you're spending on," and you discover they're spending on like four sets of project management software or like five DI tools that do the same thing 'cause someone tried it, someone passed the card to someone else, the finance person's like, "Get me the receipts." Doesn't ask the question of, "What are these, these things?" And so some of the first insights was we would say, "Well, um, show us your, um, credit card statement and we'll show you all the duplicative software, all the redundant spend. And, um, by the way, we just, you know, we helped you cut your spend by 2% per year. Um, maybe you should use our card. We'll help you do that all the time." Um, and so it was very simple, um, was the, the mechanisms. It was, it was cutting out redundant spend and it was automating processes. Um, um, and I think it's expanded, but sort of these same principles of, you know, if the, the one thing people don't have is an hour, you know, on Fridays to spend with their family because they're doing expense reports, 'cause they're tagging transactions in a tedious report, how can we give that back to them? Um, how can we design pro- uh, products that will automate the tedious, um, to, I would argue, gives people the, the new luxury of time.
- EGElad Gil
A lot of people say that with this wave of generative AI, there's new things you can automate or change, and you all have been very big adopters of the technology internally in all sorts of different ways. Can you tell us a little bit more about how you're starting
- 8:13 – 14:10
Ramp’s implementation of AI
- EGElad Gil
to use it, but for internal purposes.
- EGEric Glyman
Yeah.
- EGElad Gil
I mean, you mentioned marketing is now a technical function-
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Yeah, yeah.
- EGElad Gil
... which is amazing. How you're starting to implement it for customers or where does that matter? How you think about that as a regulated entity? So, I would just love to hear how you started thinking about using AI and then what that's led into for you all?
- KAKarim Atiyeh
100%. I mean, one, one of the early, uh, uh, really thesis of, of Ramp is, if we really wanna help you, uh, save time and money, we need context, right? So, one of the things we obsessed, uh, uh, a lot over in the early days is, we have some amount of information from the card statement. We have more information from the things that we see in your inbox. We can get even more information if we are connected, we're connected to your RP, and you get to a point where like, okay, there's a lot of it. It's very unstructured. How do you structure it and really help companies build and automate the workflows? So, and that's kind of how a lot of the, like, internal ways that AI, uh, shows up in our product really work, and that like, they tend to, like, we really focus on the job to be done. So when, like, you wanna close your books and there are different workflows that are part of this, and, uh, we're able to work on them a lot faster and really customize them without having to think about every company individually because we're able to just like apply a high level generic, like, um, AI algo with some constraints and, and just make sure that those repetitive tasks, uh, become a lot faster. Uh, so there's a lot of that that we do also on, uh, helping you figure out, uh, what bills to pay and when. There's often a right answer, right? You want to pay the bill at the most optimal time. Generally, that's the last day that it's due. In some cases it might be earlier because you get a discount. And those are all things that, that have a right answer. Uh, they take a little bit of thinking, but there's generally a way to, uh, evaluate and test what the right answer is. So the, a lot of great applications in, in helping people just like get, get peace of mind on those decisions and not have to like manually look at every single invoice. Uh, there are many cases where, uh, financial operators stress over fraud, right? And the way that they check for, uh, fraud is they'll have to, uh, essentially look at different data sources and make sure that they match. That's also something that we could do like so much easier with AI. Like let's make sure that we have three-way matching and we can match your purchase order to your invoice, uh, to the goods that were actually delivered. Uh, so there, there's many of them, but the one decision that we've made early is financial professionals care about the job being done, uh, and they care about the observability and having control, um, and a lot more than they care. Like, they don't actually care that much if they're using AI. They just want it to be like fast and accurate.
- EGElad Gil
AI function is something that a- applies a lot of sort of thought and reasoning to different aspects of-
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Yeah.
- EGElad Gil
... what bill to pay or other aspects of the business. And then my sense is as well, you're also doing some really creative things internally-
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Yeah.
- EGEric Glyman
Yes.
- EGElad Gil
... with the AI.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
It was wonderful.
- EGElad Gil
Can you tell us a little bit more about how that's impacting functions across the, the company today?
- EGEric Glyman
100%. I mean, so a lot of people know outside in sort of say Ramp's one of the, sort of the fastest growing fintech of all time, one of the fastest growing software companies. Some of this is good positioning and timing in a good market. Some of it is like very, very early adoption of, of AI in, into augmenting the capabilities of, uh, our sales team, of our marketing teams, of our underwriting teams, all the, all the way throughout. And I'll, I'll, I'll zoom in on, on one. I think that there's a lot of startups now starting to think about, um, you know, AI sales and automations and, you know, i- internally, years ago we had built a, a functionally outbound automation team. Uh, and what we had noticed is, and this is back years ago, we had very little resources, but there was one sales rep who was incredible. You know, he could go out and book far more meetings than anyone else, and we were trying to figure out, we're like, "Wow, if only we had two of him. (laughs) This would be great, or three." And, and we wouldn't understand like, what is making this person so productive? Uh, and so one of the unusual things we did is we, uh, you know, had a few engineers sit down with him and just, uh-... track what he did during the day. And he would follow kind of his calendar and turn... He'd wake up in the morning and there'd be a new set of companies that raised funds, or the people that he was in touch with who moved companies, or all kinds of stuff, and he would s- he would form his own list. Then he would go and try to guess at people's email. Uh, then he would try to go and send different copy out. And it turns out that actually... So, he had the right mechanism, but there was lots of manual steps, and so before jumping straight to, "I'm gonna hire a AI salesperson agent." We said, "Let's give him an Ironman suit. Let's, uh, let's go and, and the things that he's looking at, let's go and pull those signals so the lead list is done for him. Um, let's pull those emails so he doesn't actually have to guess at it. Um, let's run some A/B tests." Um, he can send things, but use kind of base
- SGSarah Guo
Yep.
- EGEric Glyman
... and figure out what's actually working, or they're not. And the net effect is, so you kind of flash forward to today, um, the number of meetings that, um, sales development reps at Ramp are able to book each month on their quota is multiples of any of our next closest competitors. And so it translates into a, a v- radically higher sales efficiency, um, and the ability just to invest, um, more heavily in, in scaling. And so that's part of been, um, how we've been able to continue to scale. Um, you see similar aspects, and, and Karim can go deeper into how we're looking at it in aspects of marketing, but, you know, I think a lot of great marketing is, is thinking about, you know, a CDP, customer data platform, and, and understanding who people are, what's the intent, and how do you generate great creative? In the world of AI that we live in now, the cost of creating creative art has never been lower in human history. (laughs) You can create amazing visuals, images, text, cop- um, uh, you name it. Uh, and so a lot of what we try to do is sort of decompose what the function is and how do we use, uh, the radical improvements of foundation model capabilities connected to data...
- SGSarah Guo
Well, one question on this, like, how do you... What do you think makes Ramp different in that, I mean, maybe there's many things here, but, um, you know, most organizations, like, the idea of resourcing
- 14:10 – 17:20
Resourcing and staffing
- SGSarah Guo
understanding-
- EGEric Glyman
Yeah.
- SGSarah Guo
... the SDR function with engineers and then executing against tooling for them is just, like, it's- it's not gonna happen, right? You know, division of the organization, "We only have-"
- EGEric Glyman
Engineers are not interested, right?
- SGSarah Guo
... "so many engineers." Engineers are not interested. Like, what makes that work for you guys across the org?
- EGEric Glyman
Two or three things. First, engineers are actually interested in and goaled against business problems. (laughs)
- SGSarah Guo
Yeah.
- EGEric Glyman
They like, actually drive a P&L, which is, like, very different. Often in, in many, especially, like, traditional companies, this is one of the things that felt like torture at Capital One, of engineering and technology was a cost center.
- SGSarah Guo
Mm-hmm.
- EGEric Glyman
It was only an L. There was no P, there was no profit. And so it was just a question of, "Where are costs and how can we rip things o- out?" Not, "How can we grow revenue and profit?" And that's fundamentally different from, from the get-go, uh, and I think it's important for any f- you know, business to, to think about. I think going deeper, uh, a lot of what people think about is, "How do we minimize cost?" One of the inherent questions that we're asking is, you know, time is money, um, "Where are you spending your time?" I- you kind of think back to the salesperson example, really what we were most interested in is not how many dollars were we spending, but where were the hours going, and where could we automate? Which I think is a great framework to think about, um, kind of the use of, of AI, which I think its best use case today is productivity. Uh, and so it shouldn't just be, "Hey, where is cost and how do I use AI to rip out cost?" It should be, "How do you augment and have every hour go a lot further?" I think is just some of the different framing, but there... You should add a couple more.
- SGSarah Guo
Uh, I think that, uh, you know, we're very much driven by the fact that we have a mission, right? Which is, uh, helping entrepreneurs and small businesses scale and thrive, uh, in a world where technology is at the forefront of everything. Uh, and so we really see ourselves as being able to help them achieve their mission, uh, through our product. Um, so I, I think that's one of the things that drives us is we really see ourselves as being able to help them achieve their mission. Yeah. Yeah.
- EGEric Glyman
Uh, and so I, I don't know if that's necessarily the answer you were looking for, but...
- SGSarah Guo
No, no, no, I think it's perfect. Uh, so you mentioned earlier about how you guys are very focused on engineering and product, but I was wondering
- 17:20 – 21:20
Deciding when to build vs buy
- SGSarah Guo
if you could elaborate a little bit on how you guys are thinking about building out the sales and marketing teams at Ramp, and then also kind of how you guys are thinking about building out the, um, product and technology teams at Capital One. So I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about how you guys are approaching that.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
... uh, we care a lot about the slope and the rate at which they're progressing, as opposed to whether they have gaps today or, or not.
- EGElad Gil
Mm-hmm.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
And that has served us in- incredibly well.
- EGElad Gil
Out- out of curiosity, like, why not, um... And I know it's a very different type of business, so that may be the answer, but why don't you just start offering some of these services to your customers to use the SaaS products? In other words, there's this whole wave of AI happening right now.
- EGEric Glyman
Yeah.
- SGSarah Guo
Mm-hmm.
- EGElad Gil
There's a dozen companies doing what you mentioned, that SDR automation. The marketing stuff is a little bit behind, but people are starting to talk about it. Like, you're basically, um, dogfooding products that could actually have real scale-
- EGEric Glyman
Yeah.
- EGElad Gil
... potentially in the same customer segment that you have. I'm just curious, like, why not go and offer this to the world?
- SGSarah Guo
Especially when, like, there are a lot of engineering teams out there who, um, they experience these bumps pretty abstractly.
- EGEric Glyman
Yeah.
- EGElad Gil
Yes.
- SGSarah Guo
Right? Like, they've never, you know, been attached to an SDR for days on end-
- EGEric Glyman
Yes.
- SGSarah Guo
... like you described, so there are, there are real advantages here.
- EGEric Glyman
I think it's a fair question. I, I would say, like, the-
- SGSarah Guo
You should hire us.
- EGEric Glyman
I know. It's like, hold on, like-
- EGElad Gil
Health and services. (laughs)
- EGEric Glyman
... we need a strategy function. Help, help us do that. No. It's, I wanna come back in a week and be like, "You were right." No, I mean, I'll, I'll, uh, I would say the simplistic answer is just simplicity in the sale. Like, everything we do is centered around saving you money and time for, for finance organizations. And when you sort of think about, like, the, the order in which we've done things, it's, you know, expense and cards. Instead of needing two apps to buy one thing, an Amex and, you know, a Concur, you just tap a Ramp card and your expense report does itself.
- EGElad Gil
Mm-hmm.
- EGEric Glyman
Then you add in bill payments and you add in procurement and travel. And so it's more products that, that continue to help the same economic buyer.
- EGElad Gil
Mm-hmm.
- EGEric Glyman
Uh, and I think there's a lot of friction, um, from a go-to-market perspective when you're selling to different buyer groups, uh, with inside an organization. And so, I would say the overly simplistic answer has been probably we just haven't thought deeply enough about it, and maybe, maybe we should. I, I, I, I do think what you were saying, though, is, is, is actually, uh, I think worth emphasizing, though. Like, at a lot of companies, I think everyone's heard the saying of, you know, no one gets fired for hiring IBM.
- EGElad Gil
Mm-hmm.
- EGEric Glyman
Like, I, I kinda-
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Maybe they should be.
- EGEric Glyman
Yeah. But I ki- I think, I kinda think at Ramp, you might get fired for picking IBM, right? Like, you actually want to pick vendors-
- EGElad Gil
Yeah.
- 21:20 – 25:01
Selling productivity
- SGSarah Guo
Elad has too, but been on the board of companies that sell productivity in some way. And increasingly, AI companies are selling, like, productivity as part of the, of the value. Um, it's kind of hard, right? I would make an argument that a lot of organizations don't necessarily value productivity versus, like, of their people versus direct top or bottom line.
- EGElad Gil
Mm-hmm.
- SGSarah Guo
And so I'm, I'm curious, like, uh, like, how you guys think about it internally, how you sell productivity to your customers.
- EGEric Glyman
We get classified a lot as a fintech company, and, like, we're fine to, to be in that box. I actually think we're a productivity company. (laughs)
- EGElad Gil
(laughs)
- EGEric Glyman
I agree. Like, primarily what we're selling people is time. It's expense reports they do themselves. It's books that, that do themselves keep it cleaner, more accurate. Um, it's a procurement pro- like, process that actually is just upload the contracts, we get the approvals, we show if there's better prices available, and you just have to worry about the thing you wanna buy versus just jamming it through your organization. Uh, and I, I think it is productivity. Um, and, and what I would say is some of what helps us is in the finance organization, uh, think of it from their perspective. Uh, unlike R&D and the fancy parts of it, they're G&A. And CEOs say G&A has to go down every year.
- SGSarah Guo
(laughs)
- EGEric Glyman
You cannot hire more people, and so they're asked to do the job of multiple finance teams as the companies get bigger without new resources, and we allow them to do that. Um, we sort of create this, the scale leverage for them to, to, to do that is, is some of the way that we talk about it. It definitely helps to be a product that's free to try, that pays you to use it, and shows you ways to cut out costs. Um, and I, I think what Karim was saying, and, is, it's funny. I think in 2024, we're almost like in this, uh, I think back to the '90s, you know, in the, uh, earl- probably in '97, '98, your stock went way up if you said we're whatever.com. It was really good. Then pets.com came out and it was a liability, and it was really tough. And you know, now you've got saying, "We're AI this, AI whatever product." Like, we show, not tell, is a big part of what we do. Like, we talked about automation, um, about increased accuracy because there's fewer processes that you need to go through. Um, AI is there. It's some of how we do it, but it's not the way that you, you, you lead with it. And so I, I guess it's all to say is, like, we really focus on what is the outcome we're driving. How much will you save, um, in terms of dollars? How many hours? And are you getting, uh, measured against this way? And can we really connect it, um, at least from a, um, positioning perspective?
- KAKarim Atiyeh
I mean, on, on your point of, like, how does that show up in, in, in the sale? It's like a third-order effect, but, like, we think that the companies that pick Ramp will become more successful, will grow to, in some cases, become bigger. And as a result, like, we will make more revenue. So it's a very-
- SGSarah Guo
I love it.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
(laughs)
- SGSarah Guo
Natural belief in your own customer base.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
But I mean, th- there is.
- SGSarah Guo
Yeah.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
I mean, like, we're starting to have, like, statistical significance around things like, like underwriting risk and, and, and-
- SGSarah Guo
That's awesome, yeah.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
... and, like, risk of going bankrupt. And it's a lot lower for, for Ramp than, like, a- anyone that we've seen out there. And we think, I'm sure some of it is, like, the types of, of customers that we attract.... uh, we think we have a brand that probably attracts people that do care about running a good business. Uh, so that helps, but also, like, the- the hope is that, like, if you're on Ramp, you're more likely to run a successful company.
- SGSarah Guo
Okay. So you said you're a productivity company, not just a fintech company.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Yes. (laughs)
- SGSarah Guo
But you are still a fintech company.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Yes.
- SGSarah Guo
Uh, and, you know, like, I talked to a bunch of, um, like, large customers and including, like, financial services, like, traditional financial services players. And, uh, unfortunately, I would say, like, adopt- level of adoption in use cases that matter is still, like, marginal in most of these businesses. Um, and, uh, the- the reason I... you know, I'll hear from, let's say, large bank,
- 25:01 – 28:48
Risk mitigation when using AI
- SGSarah Guo
Capital One type company, without naming them, is, uh, "You know, it's too risky." Right? Like, "Uh, AI doesn't work at the level of reliability on the workflows and use cases that we care about," and, like, something, something regulators, "Compliance is important." I know you guys believe that. But-
- KAKarim Atiyeh
(laughs)
- SGSarah Guo
... you know, you- I- like, I call Karim and he's like, "Oh, yeah, we're trying this," and, like, it's, you know, "It's useful in this way," or, "We're building something internally." Um, how do you guys figure out how to take that risk when you- you- you know, your processes, your product have to be, like, financial services robust quality?
- KAKarim Atiyeh
I honestly don't think there's that- that much risk if you constrain the problem well. Right? Because at the end of the day, so like, if you're- you're trying to figure out, like, how to use AI to help you categorize transactions, it's not an open-ended question. It's like, pick what- like, make up categories. It's like, "Hey, I know what the right categories are. Like, tell me w- which one of these could it be?" And the way this could show up in the product is every single form is pre-filled, and you can edit it if you need to. Every single list is pre-ordered. And in many cases, we can be better at asking you just a question that matters, as opposed to, like, a con- like, the- the same form that we ask you every time. Right? So, like, you might be traveling and you went and got a lunch. We don't have information to know if this was a lunch with a candidate or a lunch with a customer. We can ask you just that question-
- SGSarah Guo
Mm-hmm.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
... as opposed to, uh, like, uh, I don't know, did- was- how many people were at the event? Like, that's something that we can- we can- we can answer 'cause we may have access to your calendar and- and things of that nature. So, it really constrains the problem, uh, uh, a lot more. And, like, you're not just, like, having AI do completely unconstrained work, so...
- EGElad Gil
Yeah. I kind of categorize risks in businesses, or at least ones that take risk from these sorts of re- uh, directions, as known risks and- and- and known risks.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Yeah.
- EGElad Gil
And you all- you all have known risks. You know what you need to do, you know where things could go wrong, you can fix that.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Mm-hmm.
- EGElad Gil
I think usually it's the unknown risks that cause real problems for companies.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Yeah. Yeah.
- EGElad Gil
And so, it's, you know, you have such a sweet spot in terms of what you build that I think that minimizes that- that sort of fear of something really bad happening, which is great.
- SGSarah Guo
Well, and I think this, uh, like this, um, ability to define tasks that makes sense and understands, like, performance against the task internally, um, is actually, I- I think, like a- like a very strong competitive advantage in application of AI today.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
And on- and on the productivity point, it's like, we all, I think, can agree that, like, AI has gotten incredibly good at translation, right? Like, it could- there's some areas where like, okay, you're translating E- English to code and those could improve, but like broad translation, it's pretty good. The one type of translation problem that we see ourselves solving all the time is, like, accounting/finance speak to, like, business, uh...
- EGElad Gil
It's generically bad at math too, right?
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Yes.
- EGElad Gil
Like, certain basic math just breaks, which often gets into financial-related items.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Fair enough. But like, there- there's not, uh, I mean, there- there's- there's not a lot of that, that- that we have to do, frankly.
- SGSarah Guo
Yeah.
- EGElad Gil
So do you-
- SGSarah Guo
There's math too. (laughs)
- EGElad Gil
Can you, um, can you effectively... Are- are you thinking of, like, fine-tuning a model against certain accounting terms or doing... You know, like, I'm sort of curious how you think about problem-solving, or is it just wait for future generations of models to come out, or?
- KAKarim Atiyeh
We did spend some time fine-tuning in many places, and then we very quick- quickly found out that our time was worth way more, (laughs) uh, and that we should just, like, wait- wait for, like, other generations of model. What we've gotten really good at though is hardening our infrastructure so that we can easily switch when we need to and we can quickly evaluate the different models on the- on- on the sub-tasks that we care about. Like, I was asked this question by- by- by one of our investors recently. It was like, with- like, the GP- GPT-4o mini, how- how has that changed things for us? He has... It brought costs down, and how are we thinking about it? And my answer is like, "Oh, yeah. It's- it's already in production. And for, like, 90% of tasks that we're running, it's good enough, so that was a quick switch." And within a day, we can know very quickly, like, that, yes, this is like good enough and we have the right evals.
- EGElad Gil
What is, um, lacking right now from the AI stack? Like, if you were waiting-
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Yeah.
- EGElad Gil
... for one thing to happen,
- 28:48 – 30:50
What the AI stack is missing
- EGElad Gil
is there anything specific or is it a specific functionality or capability or just some place where it tends to fail?
- KAKarim Atiyeh
I'd say, like, we- we have been exploring using AI to help you in- in, uh, essentially, like, e- end-to-end n- navigation of, like, the website or the app, and that- that's really hard.
- SGSarah Guo
This is a cool demo, uh, like-
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Yeah.
- SGSarah Guo
... that I've seen. We- we'll link it in the podcast notes.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Our app is changing so quickly and you need to figure out, like, where do you have, like, guidelines and constraints and where do you let it be a little bit more open-ended. Um, there is a fun one that I- I- I really like, although it's not, like, quite there in production. Um, and I'm, as Eric was mentioning earlier, like, I'm really focused right now on, like, what, uh, lessons learned from really engineering and using AI in our product can we apply to other job families and processes that we run? And one of those is, we- we- we write a lot of copy. We send emails to our customers. And at most companies, there's some kind of process where, like, someone needs to review the email to make sure that it follows your brand guidelines, that it has a clear CTA. And those are things that, like, in engineering, you could... it's more deterministic. You could do that as part, like a test suite that you're run during your, like, CICD flow. What if we could build something like that for the copy that we're sending out? And we are starting to- to- to iterate on this. It's like every single email that is going out for the first time, can you run it through like an AI review, uh, that is a lot more close to instant and as deterministic as possible, although that's hard. There's definitely room for improvement there. But I would say the improvement is more around the interface and the knobs that you can use to tweak your model because today, it feels like the most common way is just like-... write different prompts and longer prompts. And, like, that's, that's the main way that you can guide the models. Uh, I think Claude with artifacts, uh, it's something really, really different that, that, that I love, and it's maybe a new, um... I mean, it's a different interface. I mean, it's, uh, really outputting a mini web app for you that you can tweak and, and, and change, and, like, we, we are obsessing over, like, wh- what the right interfaces are for, for us.
- SGSarah Guo
Maybe if you zoom out from that, um, idea of, like, oh, like, well, we could
- 30:50 – 37:26
Marketing with AI
- SGSarah Guo
have testing like we have in software engineering but on copy-
- EGEric Glyman
Totally.
- SGSarah Guo
... to, uh, it's weird in general for, um, a technology leader to own marketing, like, you know, project out several years, what does marketing look like?
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Uh, uh, well, the, the one thing that I think will remain for a very long time is, is having good taste. Uh, and, uh, at, like, at the end of the day, like, if you're, even if you are working with AIs and, and machines, uh, someone needs to decide, like, is, is, is this good or not? And, and there's this element of taste that you're not gonna be able to replace, but what if you could get, like, the, the, the marketing teams and, and professionals to just really, really focus on that and remove a lot of the mundane repetitive? And that's really, like, wh- what I'm, like, obsessing about now is like, how do we give the people in our marketing more time to focus on the things that are true differentiators and not have to reinvent the wheel on, uh, just really, like, processes that could be, um, hardened and, and, and improved with, with AI? And it starts with, there are different job families within marketing, probably a lot more than there are in engineering. The skill sets are very disparate, and very often, they need to work together effectively. Those interfaces between different teams are not always, uh, v- very clear. It's, like, the first, uh, step for me is just r- really looking at, at, uh, marketing as any other system. It has bottlenecks. It has things that you could run in parallel. It has dependencies. And I guess the first step is, like, trying to identify where those bottlenecks are and building systems that reduce those bottlenecks.
- SGSarah Guo
Karim's a systems architect refactoring the stack and being like, "I'm gonna redraw this API actually."
- EGEric Glyman
That's the first step. (laughs)
- SGSarah Guo
That's the problem, not the AI. (laughs)
- EGEric Glyman
So, I wanna tell, like, a, a, I guess, like, a anecdote for... So, one of the things that's also unusual about Ramp is we're based in New York, um, very unusual for a fast-growing tech-oriented company. And so we're on 23rd Street, but six blocks south of where, where we're located is, um, uh, Andy Warhol's old, um, studio, which was called The Factory.
- SGSarah Guo
Wait. I think where Eric's gonna go with this is he's implying that because they're in New York, they have taste, and-
- EGEric Glyman
Yeah.
- SGSarah Guo
... that's, that's the, that's the last remaining several people-
- EGEric Glyman
There's people way cooler than us in New York.
- SGSarah Guo
(laughs)
- EGEric Glyman
Like, we, we don't get, get carpet. Uh, I, I, on that topic, it's, it's, it's actually, uh, I think an interesting microcosm of I, I think where brand studios go in the, in the future. So, Andy Warhol is, is, is very interesting figure in the art world, which, uh, typically, uh, take previous artists, you needed... If you wanted to paint the Mona Lisa, you needed to develop unbelievable skill over decades in order to finally make the thing, to sculpt something, to create. His big idea was, "I'm just gonna print stuff, and I'm going to get my production process so well known and so well focused that every day, I'm gonna p- print something out on silk screen, use these commercial methods, and what I'm gonna obsess about is not how do I make the art at all. I'm just gonna obsess on what is striking." And, uh, if you kind of read interviews of, of what people would say at the time and what they did, it was this crazy place. They'd say every day something new, um, was how they did. They, they created lots of n- new stuff, um, created reality TV. You... L- he talks about, like, security guard, Augusto. He was making art too, and, and people would joke about him that he would do this thing called art by telephone, and it was unclear whether or not Andy Warhol even made the painting, and he would, like, sign it or someone would sign it as him, and you know what? It didn't matter. It... they were all Warhols. And you look at the collection of what he did over time, like, there's no question it was radically innovative, but you could tell it's a Warhol. There is some brand system going on. You can see it's distinctly him. There's a production, and he abstracted all of the complexity of production so he could just focus on making the striking. And this was in the '60s and in the '70s, and you zoom out to now, and it's like, gosh, like, you can make anything. Like, you can quite literally make your own version of the Mona Lisa. You can make music. You can make video. Um, it's only gonna get better. Um, and I, I, I think it's an interesting lens to think about what might marketing look like in the future. Taste is very hard to replace, and you might be able to see, like, what do people click on, um, or prefer. But, you know, all the complexity, if you really design and think about how do we produce things, you can reduce down from where I think a lot of marketers and people making brand get really caught of it's both how do I create the environment by which I make the art and then I test it, and I'm focusing on the ideas, and you see... I'm gonna constrain all that. Just make striking, interesting stuff. And so, uh, I think, one, building in different places, you, you think about different sorts of things, but I think that's part of why, like, when I think about, I don't know, we started talking about this, and I, I think when, one of Karim's, uh, I think, unbelievable strengths and superpowers is, like, how do you create an environment which you can create and give people leverage, um, of any function? And I think marketing is this really interesting thing. It's one of the places that, um, you know, when I think of most of the generative AI tools, a lot of it's around art, and poems, and songs, and, and music. And so, I think it's a place people are really underestimating of the importance of what you can do to augment.
- EGElad Gil
How does that map against your marketing function today, then? So, I think, I think that's a really compelling vision of where things are going and how everything's evolving. I, I'm a little bit curious just, like, how big is the team that you have right now focused on marketing? Has, um, the use of AI or their technologies constrained how many people that you bring in? Does it give them enormous leverage? Is it... do you divide it in traditional, like, brand, and digital, and performance-based marketing, and all that? Like, I'm just sort of curious. Does it change the normal marketing department structure, or is it roughly the same structure but but you provide a lot of tooling?
- KAKarim Atiyeh
The structure that we have today is, is, is roughly the same, and we're, like, primar- primarily focused on, on giving them more leverage. Um, I, I, I think what, uh...What we're trying to do is, like, make sure that they're able to, like, match, um, the speed at which, uh, we wanna, like, continue to build product, and I think a lot of companies, when faced with that, will tend to slow down. "It's great, we're gonna stop-"
- EGEric Glyman
Mm-hmm.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
"... shipping every week or shipping every month. Instead, we're gonna do quarterly, quarterly releases and yearly releases." And the problem with that is, uh, you kind of like cap yourself, and generally like you do that to give more, uh, breathing, uh, rooms or more con- to have more control over like the things you're putting out in the world, and the way we wanna do that is by giving those teams more, more leverage and, and better tooling without compromising on speed.
- EGEric Glyman
I do think the question you're asking is, is completely right though.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Yeah.
- EGEric Glyman
It's like, what, what should any modern organization and function look like? And, you know, I, I think we're, uh, early mid-way. There's a lot of things that have actually been just like unbelievable
- 37:26 – 40:00
Designing a modern marketing team
- EGEric Glyman
in, in, in starting to take a technical lens to functions that are, uh, sometimes underappreciated for how much technical work it takes to create great marketing, great sales, all, all of that. But, I, I, I think the thing that is still hard for people to rock in some sense is, you know, if you have a great idea, you can, you can spin up tens of thousands, hundred of thousands of API calls and functionally have a team of 100-
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Yeah.
- EGEric Glyman
... doing some kind of task. And just the human mind doesn't work in that way. And so I, I think part of what we're spending a lot of time talking about is, is it a r- hard requirement, where people need to think in systems and know how to build and use tools in thinking about whether it's a selection of vendors and, and great tools that could be leveraged to even in your own working environment. Um, how do you leverage your- yourself and, and, and e- and employ that as a, as a core thing we should be interviewing for everywhere.
- EGElad Gil
It's actually one of the areas, uh, at least I'm personally most excited about for AI, and in particular if I look at the marketing use cases and I look at things like ads agencies.
- EGEric Glyman
Mm-hmm.
- EGElad Gil
Where they do a lot of the work that you mentioned in terms of iterating on copy, iterating on the imagery, doing it by different format for, is it TikTok versus TV versus whatever? That is all very automatable with AI, and so I'm very excited about that area. It's just an area that's gonna turn over because it's con- it's converting services into software at a large scale, and a lot of what you're talking about is different forms of that internally.
- SGSarah Guo
I do think you need to have this trait, like both in ICs and in leadership, that you described of just like, like being able to picture scalability in a very different way, right? Um, and I- I'll give you like one example. Um, you know, a friend a while back, he, um, owned marketing at Stitch Fix. Stitch Fix, like, you know, they have a bunch of stylists who do some data science. They, like, you know, communicate with customers, and, um, like most organizations, they've discovered video's a very effective marketing medium.
- EGElad Gil
Mm-hmm. Yep.
- SGSarah Guo
And one of the things that a, the marketing leader there did was say like, "Okay. Well, the traditional thing to do is to pay this agency," that Elad describes, "to like come up with something good and tasteful and on brand," whatever, "and it's very expensive. The iteration cycle is a year." And he's like, "Well, I don't know. Like we have paid all these stylists. There's hundreds of them, and like can we just, like we're not gonna get the same level of quality." This is all pre-Gen AI whatever, right? "But we're not gonna get the same level of quality. What if we just give them direct manipulation and say, 'You all have to do video?'"
- EGElad Gil
Yes, yes.
- SGSarah Guo
It was a thousand times more effective, and it was like essentially free because the, like talent was in the building, even if the quality was not, um, it wasn't like Coke ad, ad agency quality, um, as output, right? But what you care about
- 40:00 – 42:12
Giving creative freedom to marketing teams
- SGSarah Guo
is the outcome.
- EGElad Gil
Mm-hmm.
- SGSarah Guo
And I, I think one of the ways I think about the creative fields, and like including ones that are commercial, like marketing-
- EGElad Gil
Yeah.
- SGSarah Guo
... is a commercial creative field-
- EGElad Gil
Sure.
- SGSarah Guo
... is like, well, like, you know, if you, if you have people who think about scalability, and you give people with taste, um, an understanding of your business, like the ability to do direct manipulation, right, "I make these videos myself," or whatever, it's probably gonna be a lot more effective, but it breaks a lot of norms.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
That's exactly what we're doing, uh, honestly. And just making sure that you give, well, you can teach, uh, a system what your design brand is, and that system makes it very easy for anyone on the team to produce video if they want to, anyone on the team to draft a post of social content that is interesting. Uh, we start with what is, what works really well, and then from there we iterate to make sure that it is on brand and can continue to improve and tell the, like overarching story th- that, that, that we want. I think it's a lot more restrictive to start with, let's make something on brand and then let's make it work, and a lot more costly.
- SGSarah Guo
Mm-hmm.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Um, so trying to like invert a little bit how, uh, how we produce like good creatives and, and good content.
- EGElad Gil
Is there any, one, one of the last questions or topics that we should ask you about? Or they wanna make sure to-
- EGEric Glyman
We talk about whether or not it's interesting. So one, one of the things that occasionally gets talked about in the office, I think it was like a year or something ago, The Wall Street Journal had this like big article that came out that said, you know, there's a million, uh, fewer bookkeepers, uh, over the past decade, and it's a crisis. Um, and there's all these labor market problems. It's, it's wages haven't gone up, and so no one wants to be a bookkeeper, and you're gonna, you should expect inaccurate financials. And then someone, I think like a few months later, thought to ask the question of, you know, how many financial advisors (laughs) and, you know, how many, um, accountants are there has gone up by like a million. Uh, and I think it sort of speaks to that the nature of jobs are, are changing, and, um, I think sometimes when people ask is, "Is it gonna automate everything?" I mean, our view is like it should definitely audiate the, automate the tedious monotonous. I don't think anyone should be spending any time (laughs) , um, you know, chasing people for receipts or dealing with the anxiety of you're the receipt person. You see someone at the water cooler, you can't have a normal relationship. That should be like (laughs) -
- EGElad Gil
Right.
- EGEric Glyman
... that should be like, you know, an automated system. That should be where Ramp
- 42:12 – 47:00
Augmenting bookkeeping
- EGEric Glyman
is. And so, I, I, I think, um, like there's the jobs question, right? I tend to have a, a positive view. Um, I think there is a, a place for taste and higher level work that people can do.
- EGElad Gil
So you're s- you're, you're basically extrapolating out, AI starts doing more and more things, and you're saying that means it frees people up from certain jobs that are just-
- EGEric Glyman
Right.
- EGElad Gil
... um, pausing, grindy, et cetera. It frees them up from a creator perspective because then suddenly you have centralized branding through a AI, and therefore anybody can start creating copy or using it in different leveraged ways and-So you view it as a very freeing set of technologies.
- EGEric Glyman
I think so. And, and some of this is for better or worse just how I think about and view the world tend, tend to be, you know, quite, quite positive and, and excited. But I, I, I think it's true. Like, when I ... I think it's necessary when, when you just look at the increase of the size of the company. You know, hundreds of years ago, you didn't see organizations with thousands of people. Now there's, you know, (laughs) million plus person organizations and, and to build this, you, you, you needed the development of just how do we measure the receipts and expenses at all these franchises and factories and kind of the rise of bookkeeping as a profession. But now as, you know, um, tr- uh, commerce is becoming digital in the first place-
- EGElad Gil
Mm-hmm.
- EGEric Glyman
... um, and receipts are automated and your books are kept for you, you don't need so many people. And I, I think that's actually kind of a good thing because there's, um ... So there's this funny set of research we were doing internally and we wanted to figure out, um ... So we have this function called strategic finance, and we were interested just in like a benchmarking, how many people do strategic finance? And it's something like, depending on how you measure it, I think four to 9% of jobs in finance are strategic finance. Maybe this is where should we invest more, invest less? How do we, you know, um, rip out yield in, in the business? And, um, I don't think this is finance people saying, you know, this is 91 to 96% of finance jobs are non-strategic, but, uh, sometimes it sort of feel like that.
- SGSarah Guo
It does imply that. (laughs)
- EGEric Glyman
It does imply it.
- SGSarah Guo
Yeah. (laughs)
- EGEric Glyman
It's a li- ... It sort of feels that way.
- SGSarah Guo
If you talk to strategic finance people, which you do, they're also like, "Well, like, the part of my job that's the most strategic part-"
- EGEric Glyman
It's very little, yeah.
- SGSarah Guo
"... is really small actually."
- EGEric Glyman
But it's, it's real. Like, I, I think part of what's made this wor- ... One, I don't think it's possible to use Ramp today without ... Um, AI is in your workflow in lots of places. You may or may not see it. It's there. Um, it's part of why Ramp is so easy and automated. But finance is somewhat unlike many other job functions in that people actually want automation. (laughs) GA has to go down as a percentage. There's a lot of tedious tasks, and what they want to be doing is saying, "Where should we be invest?" Um, they want salespeople not looking up people's email addresses but going and selling, um, with people, actually doing the high value thing. And so, uh, I, I do think we're actually, if we do things right, on a long run of actually having people work towards, um, much higher value, uh, tasks and uses of their time versus just repeated things that can be automated. I, I, I think to make it work and to make it actualized, I think it's ... I think there's something's gotta give in terms of, you know, the foundation models are getting radically better. But, you know, I was with the CFO of a company this morning who walked me through d- d- ... you know, over $10 billion in revenue, but quite literally hundreds of finance tools in order to keep their books, make payments-
- SGSarah Guo
Mm-hmm.
- EGEric Glyman
... um, receive payments. It's like Byzantine. It's crazy. The more important question fewer people ask is how do we actually build like the pipes and the raw primitives, you know, the car payments, the bill payments, um, the actual accounting, the low level operational tasks and the piping that you need so that when you overlay intelligence you not just get insights of what you can do and just go manage it across 100 systems. It's, it's done. These car- ... You know, these vendors have been turned off, these ones have been turned on, this contract we're gonna renegotiate it, and it's all orchestrated. And so I, I think actually thinking about the primitives, the orchestration, the way it works together is a necessary act to get the best out of the intelligence that's coming, um, so we can hopefully free people up, work on more interesting things. But we, we try to spend a lot of time thinking about that.
- SGSarah Guo
Is it useful to ask like what is exciting for Ramp that people don't know about yet?
- KAKarim Atiyeh
A- autogenerated podcast, 'cause that was interesting.
- EGEric Glyman
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
There was a-
- EGEric Glyman
Should we tell ... Yeah, it's very meta. It's coming for us as a service.
- SGSarah Guo
Wait. No, no, no, no, no. There's taste here. Yeah.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
The, the, the, let's talk about this one-
- SGSarah Guo
Okay.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
... 'cause, 'cause, 'cause it was fun and also very useful.
- EGEric Glyman
This is true.
- KAKarim Atiyeh
But we have ... I mean, at this point we generate about like tens of thousands of hours of conversations with customers that we have all the time. You have lots of teams across the companies, from engineering to product to design to marketing, that would love to know like what are customer are seeing, feeling, hearing. And it's very hard to do that 'cause you can't listen to 10,000 hours. And we've had our like, uh, internal applied AI team that was able to put together a very quick, uh, process to essentially generate a five-minute podcast of, uh, it could be Erik, it could be me, like asking questions-
- EGEric Glyman
(laughs)
- KAKarim Atiyeh
... of our customers. And then you get like five minutes of like the most interesting things that happened with, with customers during the week. Uh, we want to take that a little bit further so that, uh, anyone on the team could
- 47:00 – 48:20
AI-generated podcasts
- KAKarim Atiyeh
maybe zoom in a little bit on a sub-segment of customers, a particular persona, a particular topic. But we think it makes like coordination in the company a lot faster, so you don't have to like wait, uh, for information to make its way to you. You could just like go get it at the source.
- SGSarah Guo
Very cool.
- EGElad Gil
That's very interesting. My favorite thing is-
- KAKarim Atiyeh
Yeah?
- EGEric Glyman
... I, I think what the team wanted to show was, um, you know, just the voice of the customer, and we'd apply sentiment analysis-
- EGElad Gil
Oh, yeah.
- EGEric Glyman
... to tens of thousands of calls to find like the happiest moments, people saying like, "I love Ramp. It's saved me. This is ... I- ... It's a very thankless part of my job. Ramp helped all this." It was, it was fantastic. So that was like the emotional, and that was like the podcast that like we wanted to make. And so we, we send this out. It's great. LLMs have time for it in ways people don't. Start showing this to other founders and what every other founder starts asking us for is-
- SGSarah Guo
What's the bad? (laughs)
- EGEric Glyman
... "I want the voice of the angry customer." (laughs) "I want to know all the upset people."
- SGSarah Guo
Yeah.
- EGEric Glyman
'Cause as companies get bigger, I, I think the big problem is no one wants to tell you bad news.
- SGSarah Guo
Yeah.
- EGEric Glyman
Um-
- SGSarah Guo
That's funny. (laughs)
- EGEric Glyman
People go t- ... So, uh, you know, having a large language model help make sure you know what's going on, um-
- EGElad Gil
That's good.
- EGEric Glyman
... unexpected use case.
- SGSarah Guo
Yeah.
- EGElad Gil
That's cool.
- SGSarah Guo
Very cool. Thanks for the conversation, guys.
- EGElad Gil
Thank you.
- EGEric Glyman
Thank you.
- SGSarah Guo
Yeah. Find us on Twitter at No Priors Pod. Subscribe to our YouTube channel if you want to see our faces. Follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. That way you get a new episode every week. And sign up for emails or find transcripts for every episode at no-priors.com.
Episode duration: 48:20
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode -uMaiOgYkj4
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome