The AI job disaster Congress refuses to fix

1. 0:00 – 1:00

   America isn't ready for AI

   1. KSKara Swisher0:00

      Why couldn't the Biden administration get this done? Why couldn't-

   2. GRGina Raimondo0:03

      [laughs]

   3. KSKara Swisher0:07

      [laughs]

   4. GRGina Raimondo0:08

      I mean, like Congress-

   5. KSKara Swisher0:09

      Long eye roll for people-

   6. GRGina Raimondo0:10

      Congress [laughs]

   7. KSKara Swisher0:10

      ... listening at home

   8. GRGina Raimondo0:12

      This is a podcast, you can't see my face.

   9. KSKara Swisher0:13

      No, you can now.

   10. GRGina Raimondo0:15

       Uh-

   11. KSKara Swisher0:15

       We're not-

   12. GRGina Raimondo0:15

       Oh, fair

   13. KSKara Swisher0:16

       ... podcasts are now video.

   14. GRGina Raimondo0:16

       Good point, actually. Yeah.

   15. KSKara Swisher0:18

       We have changed.

   16. GRGina Raimondo0:18

       Um-

   17. KSKara Swisher0:19

       We're television now.

   18. GRGina Raimondo0:20

       It is on. [upbeat music]

   19. KSKara Swisher0:26

       Hi, everyone. Today, we've got a special bonus episode. I'm talking to former Secretary of Commerce and Rhode Island Governor Gina Raimondo. She's got a lot to say on AI and its effects on the economy and the job force. I think it's really important to talk to someone like Gina, who was critical to passing the CHIPS Act and the infrastructure bill, and also someone who thinks a lot about how to do this in a nonpartisan or bipartisan way. Uh, she's really sharp and, and she's someone who might be running for president, so you should listen to what she has to say. This conversation was recorded live at the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg Center as part of their Discovery

2. 1:00 – 4:07

   Why Gina Raimondo is a 9 out of 10 worried

   1. KSKara Swisher1:00

      Series, so stick around. I've wanted to get you on forever, uh, as you know.

   2. GRGina Raimondo1:05

      Yes.

   3. KSKara Swisher1:05

      Um, and here we are finally.

   4. GRGina Raimondo1:06

      Here we are.

   5. KSKara Swisher1:06

      I'm very excited. All right. Secretary Gina Raimondo. Gina, thank you for coming on On. [applauds] And, and thanks to the Johns Hopkins University, which currently is celebrating its 150th year. Um, if you didn't know, Hopkins is celebrate... I- is the America's first research university, and I'm glad to be back at the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg Center in Washington, DC. So let's get started. Um, we have a lot to cover on AI. This is something I know you ta- You were one of the first people to talk about this, um, uh, as commerce secretary and in other places that I recall hearing it about. Um, but I want to get a sense of where we are and what's coming. So on a scale of one to 10, how worried are you for the United States about the rapid acceleration of what we're seeing? And, you know, call on the stuff you had done as commerce secretary and maybe as the governor of Rhode Island, which is-

   6. GRGina Raimondo2:02

      Yeah

   7. KSKara Swisher2:02

      ... I think the coolest job ever, but-

   8. GRGina Raimondo2:04

      It is the best job. Being the governor is the best job in pol- American politics, I think. It's awesome. Uh, well, first of all, thank you for having me. I'm a big fan, and it's fun for me to be here. Uh, I'd say, you know, nine, pretty high.

   9. KSKara Swisher2:18

      Wow. Okay.

   10. GRGina Raimondo2:19

       Yeah. S- so, and here's why.

   11. KSKara Swisher2:21

       Okay.

   12. GRGina Raimondo2:22

       You're saying concerns?

   13. KSKara Swisher2:23

       Yeah.

   14. GRGina Raimondo2:23

       Yeah. Here's why. Because I don't think the country has the laws, the institutions, the... You know, we're not ready, right?

   15. KSKara Swisher2:34

       Mm-hmm.

   16. GRGina Raimondo2:35

       So n- [laughs]

   17. KSKara Swisher2:37

       [laughs]

   18. GRGina Raimondo2:38

       I have a single fan.

   19. KSKara Swisher2:39

       Okay. [laughs]

   20. GRGina Raimondo2:43

       [laughs] [applauds] I have a single fan.

   21. KSKara Swisher2:45

       [laughs]

   22. GRGina Raimondo2:46

       Uh, so listen, I was, as you said, like the AI... You know, the commerce secretary, it's a, it's a interesting job. You're half trade minister and half tech minister-

   23. KSKara Swisher2:56

       Mm-hmm

   24. GRGina Raimondo2:57

       ... in the US system.

   25. KSKara Swisher2:58

       Right.

   26. GRGina Raimondo2:58

       So I was the AI minister.

   27. KSKara Swisher3:00

       Right. Right. You also get the census, right?

   28. GRGina Raimondo3:02

       And census and fish-

   29. KSKara Swisher3:03

       Yeah, yeah

   30. GRGina Raimondo3:05

       ... and if you want to know anything about red snapper catchment, I'm your woman.
3. 4:07 – 8:16

   The politics problem behind AI

   1. GRGina Raimondo4:07

      very good retraining initiatives. So I worry about that, and that's what my new initiative is focused on. I'm worried about the national security implications.

   2. KSKara Swisher4:15

      Yeah.

   3. GRGina Raimondo4:15

      You know? I mean, we don't have any laws on the books right now-

   4. KSKara Swisher4:19

      Right

   5. GRGina Raimondo4:19

      ... or regulations. That should worry everyone.

   6. KSKara Swisher4:22

      Mm-hmm.

   7. GRGina Raimondo4:23

      You know, what, we need standards. What is a safe model? Then we need to, you know, the government ought to test these models before they're released, and they have to pass these standards. And then if they don't pass, there's gonna be consequences.

   8. KSKara Swisher4:39

      Mm-hmm.

   9. GRGina Raimondo4:39

      So I worry about that. I worry about child safety. You know, I worry-

   10. KSKara Swisher4:44

       Mm-hmm

   11. GRGina Raimondo4:44

       ... so much. I'm a mother to kids, like, I worry about that.

   12. KSKara Swisher4:47

       Mm-hmm.

   13. GRGina Raimondo4:47

       On the one hand, I'm excited. I don't actually think the technology's the problem. I think we have a politics problem and institutions problem, and we better get our act together fast, um, so we can meet the challenge.

   14. KSKara Swisher5:05

       So, so talk about that politics problem. What, I mean, what is the problem? Obviously, this is a group of people who figured out that you give money and you get to be the front of the line here. You don't get regulation, whether it's in crypto, whether it's in anything else. Talk a little bit about where we are. If, if that's the case, we need that, how do we, how do we get to those kind of policies, especially around the workforce, that are critical?

   15. GRGina Raimondo5:31

       Yeah. So, you know, as you might imagine, I have a lot of f- views on the matter.

   16. KSKara Swisher5:36

       Mm-hmm.

   17. GRGina Raimondo5:36

       Um, I would say, like, money and politics, it, money has always been a problem in politics. You know, 50 years ago, people were complaining about money in politics. It is out of control. But it's not just tech.

   18. KSKara Swisher5:53

       Mm-hmm.

   19. GRGina Raimondo5:53

       Okay? Let's be honest.

   20. KSKara Swisher5:54

       Mm-hmm.

   21. GRGina Raimondo5:54

       It is, you know, financial services. It's every regulated industry.

   22. KSKara Swisher6:00

       Mm-hmm.

   23. GRGina Raimondo6:00

       Pharma, financial services. The amount of money that is spent-

   24. KSKara Swisher6:05

       Mm-hmm

   25. GRGina Raimondo6:05

       ... to buy influence-

   26. KSKara Swisher6:06

       Mm-hmm

   27. GRGina Raimondo6:06

       ... is, is, it's broken. It's a broken system. So, you know, you can say this is a problem with these tech billionaires, and I agree. But honestly, we have to fix these systems. We need a s- more transparency. You know, Citizens United was a terrible decision. If you could wave... People often say to me, "If you could do one thing to fix American politics, what would it be?" I would say this. We-

   28. KSKara Swisher6:32

       Citizens United.

   29. GRGina Raimondo6:33

       Yeah. You have to find-

   30. KSKara Swisher6:34

       So, so how then do you get-
4. 8:16 – 12:47

   Preparing workers before AI replaces jobs

   1. GRGina Raimondo8:16

      group that I'm really worried about is young people. I have a 22-year-old and a 19-year-old. You know, they're stressed. "What are my jobs gonna be?" So in Maryland, we're gonna fund, and the governor will run in Maryland, a year of service for any Marylander young person interested in a job, and we're gonna put them in jobs in companies in areas with a sh- a shortage. Clinical healthcare work, uh, maybe, uh, teaching or teacher's assistants.

   2. KSKara Swisher8:43

      Mm-hmm.

   3. GRGina Raimondo8:43

      That's innovative. I hope it works. I hope other states do it, and I hope one day Congress gets its act together and puts it in national legislation. I'm very worried about, um, like honestly middle-aged clerical workers, call center workers, customer service workers, salespeople. Um, y- they need, they, we cannot just allow AI to rip through this economy and, you know, every middle-aged woman who has had that same job for 20 years, you say, "Sorry, you're out of work. You're 55." Not to just be my age. "You're 55, no more work for you." No. How about wage insurance? How about we let that person get another job? If she gets a job at a l- lower rate, the government tops up her pay. How about some kind of transition support? How about job sharing? I mean, let's go. Let's get creative. Listen, right now, you may know this, you may not, in the United States, if you lose your job-

   4. KSKara Swisher9:47

      Mm-hmm

   5. GRGina Raimondo9:48

      ... you really get unemployment insurance. That's pretty much all there is, okay? It's a flawed program in 100 different ways. If you start a business while you're collecting UI, chances are you get kicked off of UI-

   6. KSKara Swisher10:03

      Mm-hmm

   7. GRGina Raimondo10:03

      ... 'cause you're not really looking for a job. That's kinda dumb, I think.

   8. KSKara Swisher10:10

      Mm-hmm.

   9. GRGina Raimondo10:10

      Especially if you think, as I do, that'll, AI could unleash a lot of new business cr-

   10. KSKara Swisher10:16

       Entrepreneurial

   11. GRGina Raimondo10:16

       ... entrepreneurial.

   12. KSKara Swisher10:17

       Right.

   13. GRGina Raimondo10:18

       Everyone knows the majority of jobs created in America's economy is from new small companies. AI potentially could, um-

   14. KSKara Swisher10:27

       Make it go upwards

   15. GRGina Raimondo10:28

       ... increase that, make it go up. So one idea very quickly that we're-

   16. KSKara Swisher10:30

       Mm-hmm

   17. GRGina Raimondo10:30

       ... gonna experiment with-

   18. KSKara Swisher10:31

       Mm-hmm

   19. GRGina Raimondo10:32

       ... is we gotta pull all the levers at once to make this work. A governor will say, "In our state, if you wanna start your own business, you could continue to get unemployment insurance, and you can get a new thing called self-employment assistance." And then we, Raise Us, are gonna fund in that state a startup accelerator and help those people to start a business. So is any of this gonna work? I'm not sure, but we gotta try it. We gotta stop admiring the problem and get out there and do something.

   20. KSKara Swisher11:03

       Wh- why, why, why has e- e- even, everyone is sort of saying the doom is coming.

   21. GRGina Raimondo11:09

       Mm.

   22. KSKara Swisher11:09

       It's sort of like the flood is coming, the flood is coming, the flood is, you know, and no one's building an ark anywhere. I mean-

   23. GRGina Raimondo11:15

       That's what I'm trying to do

   24. KSKara Swisher11:15

       ... no, I understand that, but what, what, what is the problem on the federal level? Why couldn't the Biden administration get this done? Why couldn't-

   25. GRGina Raimondo11:22

       [sighs]

   26. KSKara Swisher11:26

       [laughs]

   27. GRGina Raimondo11:27

       I mean, like Congress-

   28. KSKara Swisher11:28

       Long eye roll for people-

   29. GRGina Raimondo11:30

       Congress

   30. KSKara Swisher11:30

       ... listening at home.
5. 12:47 – 14:20

   Why Congress can't get anything done

   1. KSKara Swisher12:47

      on Pivot, data centers have become the fear of AI. It's sort of the, the, what, how people are expressing their disgust over AI, really. Um, and they were flash point. Uh, uh, New York Governor Kathy Hochul hit pause on new data centers in her state until, she didn't say none, she said, "We're gonna figure out how to work this out correctly. We're gonna give it a year." M- many people, uh, now it's up to 50%, are approving of this, about 20% aren't. Um, do you think they're approach a moratorium a- as a policy and sort of push back on, that ordinary citizens in Utah, they're seeing in Virginia-

   2. GRGina Raimondo13:23

      Yeah

   3. KSKara Swisher13:24

      ... uh, same thing.

   4. GRGina Raimondo13:25

      Yeah.

   5. KSKara Swisher13:25

      Uh, but talk about that because it's become the, it, to me there's nothing wrong with creating data centers if they're done in cooperation with the community.

   6. GRGina Raimondo13:32

      Correct.

   7. KSKara Swisher13:33

      Yeah.

   8. GRGina Raimondo13:33

      They, I agree f-

   9. KSKara Swisher13:34

      Right

   10. GRGina Raimondo13:34

       ... you just said it.

   11. KSKara Swisher13:35

       Right.

   12. GRGina Raimondo13:35

       Do it in coop- don't go where you're not wanted. And, you know, you can't... Listen, people are anxious for a reason. This is what I, I believe. Just, like everyone here, you get anxious if things are happening to you, making your life worse, making your bills go up, and you can't do anything about it. And that's how people feel about data centers.

   13. KSKara Swisher14:02

       Mm-hmm.

   14. GRGina Raimondo14:02

       Data centers, like, aren't bad. They will enable innovation. We ch- we do want innovation. We do want commerce. However, in Virginia when there weren't the appropriate safeguards, people's bills, the electricity bills went up.

   15. KSKara Swisher14:18

       Mm-hmm.

   16. GRGina Raimondo14:18

       That's not okay.

   17. KSKara Swisher14:19

       Mm-hmm.

6. 14:20 – 18:27

   Data centers and the AI backlash

   1. GRGina Raimondo14:20

      So I think you have to say to these companies, "Yes, we want your data centers, but do it right."

   2. KSKara Swisher14:24

      Mm-hmm.

   3. GRGina Raimondo14:24

      Right? Do it right. Like, you gotta bring and figure out your own energy. Electricity bills cannot go up.

   4. KSKara Swisher14:30

      Mm-hmm.

   5. GRGina Raimondo14:31

      Same thing with water.

   6. KSKara Swisher14:32

      Mm-hmm.

   7. GRGina Raimondo14:32

      You gotta recycle the water. The water bills can't go up. You're not gonna get a tax break to do this.

   8. KSKara Swisher14:37

      Mm-hmm.

   9. GRGina Raimondo14:38

      Uh, you know, it's like there are ways to do it right. Take care of the workers that you employ, you know, take care of the area. By the way, you know, I, I don't wanna be an apologist for any tech company, but I think if you said, "These are the rules"

   10. KSKara Swisher14:51

       Mm-hmm

   11. GRGina Raimondo14:51

       ... they would probably follow the rules 'cause they need to open these data centers.

   12. KSKara Swisher14:56

       So why didn't they in the first place?

   13. GRGina Raimondo14:57

       'Cause they have to be made to.

   14. KSKara Swisher15:00

       They have to be made to, right.

   15. GRGina Raimondo15:01

       They, you know, they have to be made to.

   16. KSKara Swisher15:03

       Right.

   17. GRGina Raimondo15:03

       If you, if I were still the governor, Rhode Island doesn't have any open space, but if I were still the governor, I would say, "Yeah, you can come here under these conditions."

   18. KSKara Swisher15:12

       Right. Um, but when you talk, one of the things when you talk about job loss, you often talk about your father who lost his job-

   19. GRGina Raimondo15:17

       Yeah

   20. KSKara Swisher15:17

       ... at the Bulova watch factory in the 1980s-

   21. GRGina Raimondo15:20

       Yeah

   22. KSKara Swisher15:20

       ... when the company moved manufacturing to China. Um, with AI adoption we're walking into, as I said, something faster-

   23. GRGina Raimondo15:26

       Yeah

   24. KSKara Swisher15:26

       ... than anything else that's coming. T- talk about that transition, and w- as you said, what did we get wrong in that transition? And this, that was happening at a much slower pace than-

   25. GRGina Raimondo15:35

       Yeah

   26. KSKara Swisher15:36

       ... what's happening now.

   27. GRGina Raimondo15:37

       So I, I use that a lot as an analogy, you know, to what we're facing now.

   28. KSKara Swisher15:42

       Mm-hmm.

   29. GRGina Raimondo15:42

       In that case, every company, every m- manufacturing company, they put their blinders on, they focused exclusively on efficiency, enhanced profit from moving labor to China.

   30. KSKara Swisher15:55

       Mm-hmm.
7. 18:27 – 31:25

   The job transition America can't afford to repeat

   1. GRGina Raimondo18:27

      try.

   2. KSKara Swisher18:27

      Mm-hmm.

   3. GRGina Raimondo18:28

      At the end of the day, I, you know, this is all gonna take law-

   4. KSKara Swisher18:31

      Mm-hmm

   5. GRGina Raimondo18:31

      ... and regulations and such, but I do think they're worried. Although, even a lot of them who are raising the alarm bell, like a warning isn't a solution.

   6. KSKara Swisher18:42

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   7. GRGina Raimondo18:43

      You know what I mean?

   8. KSKara Swisher18:44

      Right.

   9. GRGina Raimondo18:44

      Okay, warning. What are we doing about it?

   10. KSKara Swisher18:46

       Mm-hmm.

   11. GRGina Raimondo18:47

       How... And I don't, I will not just put all the blame or responsibility at the foot of AI companies.

   12. KSKara Swisher18:54

       Mm-hmm.

   13. GRGina Raimondo18:55

       Right? It's every American company implementing AI.

   14. KSKara Swisher18:59

       Mm-hmm.

   15. GRGina Raimondo19:00

       They're... Here's the thing. I refuse to believe there's not a way to use AI, invent AI, lead the world in AI, and implement it in a way so that we have a smooth transition without sky-high unemployment. Like, there is a way.

   16. KSKara Swisher19:22

       Mm.

   17. GRGina Raimondo19:22

       So let's figure it out.

   18. KSKara Swisher19:23

       So each episode, we get a pod- on the podcast, we get an expert question. Here's yours from Joanna Stern.

   19. SPSpeaker19:29

       Hi, I'm Joanna Stern, a tech journalist and the author of I Am Not a Robot: My Year Using AI to Do Almost Everything. My question for Gina Raimondo is this: I am currently reporting on a company that pays low-wage workers to wear head-mounted cameras like this. I'll put it on. And they're wearing these while doing their jobs, including house cleaning, so that the data can be used to train robots. In the short term, those workers earn money. In the long term, they may be helping train the very robots that could replace them, and we've seen this already in customer service. What do you say to someone who's literally training the AI that is going to create their replacement? Is retraining enough, or do we need new economic models that let workers share in the value that they're helping create? And yes, I realize you probably did not take this question seriously.

   20. KSKara Swisher20:19

       [laughs]

   21. GRGina Raimondo20:19

       [laughs]

   22. KSKara Swisher20:21

       She's good.

   23. GRGina Raimondo20:21

       Uh, no, retraining's not enough.

   24. KSKara Swisher20:24

       Yeah.

   25. GRGina Raimondo20:24

       It's not enough. It's a piece of the puzzle.

   26. KSKara Swisher20:25

       Mm-hmm.

   27. GRGina Raimondo20:27

       But, you know, I've already said, we, we, we need new forms of transition support, incentives for companies, disincentives for mass layoffs. Um, m- it is possible. Listen, look, it's a very dynamic economy. Our economy's amazing. As much as we complain about it, I wouldn't wanna be anywhere else in the world. Most of the jobs in American economy today didn't exist 50, 60 years ago.

   28. KSKara Swisher20:56

       Mm-hmm.

   29. GRGina Raimondo20:56

       And I really am still bullish that i- s- in some number of years, AI's going to create new jobs-

   30. KSKara Swisher21:05

       Mm-hmm
8. 31:25 – 40:00

   What Gina Raimondo would do as president

   1. GRGina Raimondo31:26

      however, it raised money, and you, we may have to get to that place.

   2. KSKara Swisher31:31

      Mm-hmm.

   3. GRGina Raimondo31:32

      Right? Like, if, if we find companies buying lots of tokens-

   4. KSKara Swisher31:38

      Mm-hmm

   5. GRGina Raimondo31:38

      ... and firing lots of people, they-

   6. KSKara Swisher31:41

      And dumping them on the government to deal with

   7. GRGina Raimondo31:43

      ... dumping them on the government to deal with, Medicaid, food stamps, whatever, that's a free lunch that they shouldn't have.

   8. KSKara Swisher31:50

      Mm-hmm.

   9. GRGina Raimondo31:51

      So we gotta figure out our way through it.

   10. KSKara Swisher31:54

       So when you think about higher education, um, a- and, and I see now your presidential run will be about college, what's it for? [laughs] Here at Johns Hopkins University-

   11. GRGina Raimondo32:04

       I know

   12. KSKara Swisher32:04

       ... Bloomberg Center-

   13. GRGina Raimondo32:05

       I know

   14. KSKara Swisher32:06

       ... in Washington, DC. Um, uh, but how does higher education... [laughs]

   15. GRGina Raimondo32:10

       I'm paying a lot of bills for two kids to be in college.

   16. KSKara Swisher32:13

       I, I know. I know. I, I feel your pain. I feel your pain on that. My son's at Michigan. Um-

   17. GRGina Raimondo32:17

       Oh, go Blue.

   18. KSKara Swisher32:17

       Yeah, yeah, go Blue. Oh, God. [laughs]

   19. SPSpeaker32:19

       [laughs]

   20. KSKara Swisher32:21

       Those people never sto-

   21. GRGina Raimondo32:22

       I know

   22. KSKara Swisher32:22

       ... I know that. I get it, but calm down.

   23. GRGina Raimondo32:25

       I know.

   24. SPSpeaker32:25

       [laughs]

   25. GRGina Raimondo32:26

       I know. It's-

   26. KSKara Swisher32:27

       You are the best. I-

   27. GRGina Raimondo32:28

       It's a disease.

   28. KSKara Swisher32:29

       It is.

   29. GRGina Raimondo32:29

       It is a disease. I'm married to a Wolverine.

   30. KSKara Swisher32:31

       I... Are you?
9. 40:00 – 41:29

   Advice for students entering the AI era

   1. GRGina Raimondo40:00

      those skills.

   2. KSKara Swisher40:00

      Yeah.

   3. GRGina Raimondo40:01

      Um, something in healthcare. It's like, there's too many people who, like, don't get healthcare in this country. Like, man, bring down the cost.

   4. KSKara Swisher40:09

      Mm-hmm.

   5. GRGina Raimondo40:10

      You know? Bring down the cost of delivering healthcare so everybody can get some.

   6. KSKara Swisher40:14

      Yeah. All right.

   7. SPSpeaker40:15

      [applause]

   8. KSKara Swisher40:15

      Anyway, uh, thank you so much, Secretary. Do I call you Secretary or Governor?

   9. GRGina Raimondo40:21

      Uh-

   10. KSKara Swisher40:22

       Which one are you supposed to keep? I, I was just with Clinton-

   11. GRGina Raimondo40:24

       Uh, I don't know

   12. KSKara Swisher40:24

       ... and I didn't know which one to call her, so-

   13. GRGina Raimondo40:25

       You, you just call me Gina.

   14. KSKara Swisher40:27

       Gina. Okay.

   15. GRGina Raimondo40:27

       Yeah.

   16. KSKara Swisher40:27

       All right. Thank you so much, Gina.

   17. GRGina Raimondo40:29

       [laughs]

   18. KSKara Swisher40:29

       And thank you... Maybe m- Ms. President someday. Um, and thank you again to the Johns Hopkins for hosting us here tonight at the Bloomberg Center. We'll be back, uh, later this year for more conversations about the intersection of AI innovation and public policy, and you can sign up at washingtondc.jhu.edu to find out how to join us. I'll be back with a really interesting speaker, the next one. Um, uh, and I'm so glad you're here, and I'm so glad you could come out. It's really wonderful. IRL is back, I'm sorry to tell you, but that's... And I'm so glad. Thank you so much.

   19. SPSpeaker41:05

       [upbeat music]

   20. KSKara Swisher41:06

       Today's show was produced by Tracy Hunt, Madeleine LaPlant Dewey, and Kalyn Lynch. Special thanks to Dave Shaw, Steve Bone, and Julia Sharp Levine. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts, and our theme music is by Trackademics. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 41:29