"I Had Dinner With The King. I Was Once Homeless" | John McCalla-Leacy

1. 0:00 – 1:03

   From Windrush roots to a wildly non-linear life path

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr0:00

      You're the son of Jamaican parents who came to Britain as part of the Windrush generation. You grew up in South London, experienced homelessness, got helped by The Prince's Trust, became an international canoeist, worked in fashion for Benetton, lived in Italy, China, Hong Kong, and Thailand, ran businesses, became a martial arts champion, a coach. John KPMG became one of their top performing partners in Asia, became the Global Head of ESG, built a life around financial independence and resilience, walked away from the corporate treadmill, and somehow ended up having dinner with the King and becoming friends with him. In fact, his mother, the Queen, actually introduced us.

   2. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy0:42

      Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Seemed cool. That, that was fun, right?

   3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr0:45

      Yeah. [laughs]

   4. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy0:45

      That was good.

   5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr0:46

      How does it hear... How does it sound to you hearing that story back?

   6. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy0:50

      I, look, it's funny, right? And, and we've talked about this a lot because in many ways it feels like you just couldn't make that story up. But, but, but it's true, and I guess we're gonna unpack a bit of that and get into it now. But it's, uh, yeah, it's been a, it's been a ride.

2. 1:03 – 4:47

   The “leaking canoe” origin: pride, fear of water, and choosing to persist

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:03

      Before we speak about the King, I wanna go back to the boy and the leaking canoe.

   2. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:08

      Yeah. [laughs] Sure.

   3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:09

      Tell me the origin story, John.

   4. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:11

      Yeah, sure. So as you, as you touched on briefly, um, uh, I'm, uh, I, I am or I say I was one of nine, so four brothers, uh, four sisters. Uh, and I say, un- unfortunately, I lost a, a brother and I lost a sister along the way some years ago. Um, uh, parents came from Jamaica. Um, uh, it was always pretty busy, pretty, pretty hectic in our, in our, in our house growing up. Um, I often mention the fact that, you know, when my parents left the shores of Jamaica, uh, and, uh, the, the whole Windrush story is really around, um, uh, Britain calling out to the, the empire, uh, to come and help rebu- rebuild, uh, the country post-war. And I, I often talk about the fact that they left the warm shores of Jamaica to a country at the time which was cold and, and, and often quite hostile, uh, to people who looked like them. Um, and, and, and therefore, what they really did was, uh, they leant into community. They leant into community, and that was for, for support. It was their support net- network. Uh, it was also safety, right? Uh, growing up in South Lundy- London at the time, some of the places were quite, [laughs] uh, quite, uh, tough. Uh, um, you know, you had to be careful that you didn't end up on the, on the wrong streets at the wrong time, uh, by yourself. But, um, I was really close to my family. Went to school there. Uh, I was rubbish, pretty rubbish [laughs] at school. Uh, pretty unfocused. And, uh, a part of the, the origin story as you, as you referenced it was I was, um... I often talk about the fact that I was, I was good at all sports but, uh, not the best in anything. Uh, and I got called out by one of my teachers, John Novak, never forget him, he's an amazing guy, to try this sport, uh, of whitewater canoeing. And I was like, "Yeah, I could do that," you know? "Of course, course I could do it, right? I could do everything, right? Of course, I could do that. Yeah, I'd be awesome at that." And then I kinda turned and said, "What's canoeing?" I didn't even know what it was, right?

   5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr3:08

      [laughs]

   6. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy3:08

      Uh, so I tried it, um, 'cause he called me out and I was bad. [laughs] I was really bad. I was really bad and, and, um, so much so that I... Like, I'm six two now. I, I, I was, uh, six two back then, forty... well, 13 year old, skinny, lanky kid, um, strapping, you know, well, skinny, but tall, right? Quite imposing figure. And I got in my kayak and probably within about 80 seconds I found myself upside down, managed to capsize it. Only person that did that.

   7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr3:40

      [laughs]

   8. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy3:40

      Um, sort of twisted, completely panicked. Uh, and it was then I found out I was terrified of water. Uh, um, got my foot stuck in and screaming my head off like, "Help. Help. Help. Can you get me out?" to the instructor, and he paddled over to me really slowly and he just sat there and he didn't say a word. He just looked at me, and he just looked at me, and he just looked at me and I was like, "Help. Help." "Help?" "Help." And he's like, "Right, now that you stopped-

   9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr4:08

      [laughs]

   10. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy4:08

       ... if you shut up, I will help you." And I felt that small. I felt that small then. And everybody around, uh, the other people canoeing from school, they all laughed at me and I hated that. And, and, you know, I realized that really it was just, it was my pride that thought, "Well, there's no way I could not be good at this thing because I said I was gonna be good at it." And that really spurred me on to get good at it simply because I wasn't and people laughed at me. Uh, so as a, as a teenager, I then resolved in that moment that I'm just gonna keep doing this thing, uh, for no other reason than the [laughs] fact that I just refused to accept that I couldn't be good at something.

3. 4:47 – 7:24

   Growing up in a crowded immigrant household: community as safety net

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr4:47

      What did the world look like that you were born into-

   2. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy4:50

      Mm

   3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr4:50

      ... in South London? Explain the kind of living situation, the family situation. Paint a picture for the listener of your-

   4. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy4:58

      Mm-hmm

   5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr4:58

      ... humble upbringings.

   6. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy5:00

      Yeah. So, uh, my dad's, uh, my dad's a builder. Uh, my dad, my dad couldn't, still can't now, couldn't read or write, uh, but incredible memory. Just remembered [laughs] absolutely everything. Still to this day. He's 93 years old now at the time of recording. Uh, my mum, uh, worked as a care assistant. Um, you know, uh, mainly worked through the, through the night, um, in, um, elderly care homes. And in the daytime she would have one or two other jobs. So she'd come home and then she would do child minding or various different things. It was pretty chaotic in, in the house. As I said, there was lots of us in the house and, and despite the fact that there were so many of us, um, somehow my mum primarily just kept saying, "Oh, oh, do you need some help? Oh, c- you know, you can come and live with us." So we- there was a, um, a, you know, a chap, uh, um, really good. I call him my godfather. He's not my godfather, but, um, grew up at the time. He, he found himself homeless as, uh, in his late teens. So, so my mum was like, "Oh, no, you just move in with us." And he stayed there for years and then he got married and then his wife, "Oh, you can move in with us [laughs] also." So it was pretty chaotic but, but, uh, but great, but fun. Um, going to school. Uh, um, so lived in West Norwood. Uh, went to, uh, a school which was not the best school. Um, um, it had, uh, um, you know, historically sometimes and it was pretty tough. My, my brother, one of my eldest brothers talked about going there and, uh, it was... That was a time of National Front. They would march on the school and beat the Black kids up and stuff like that. So, you know, you'd have to, you'd have to go in groups, and you'd have to get strong, and you'd have to get tough, right? Literally just to get to school, and then just to get back. So those are the times. Um, uh, chur- um, church was a, a, a big thing in my family's life. So, you know, we had to go, uh, whether you [chuckles] liked it or not. Uh, quite often, uh, Sunday mornings, uh, so Sunday school, Sunday church, Sunday evenings. Uh, you might go midweek also, prayer school, um, uh, pr- uh, prayer meetings, Bible school, stuff like that. And that was all a bit heavy and a bit much. But, um, you know, over time I realized just that the whole support network that my family had cultivated over time was around that group and, and we were just immersed in that group. So, um, yeah, it was, uh, it was, uh, interesting times.

4. 7:24 – 9:10

   Immigrant lessons that stuck: work ethic, values, and mutual aid systems

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr7:24

      What did you learn being in the epicenter of an immigrant household?

   2. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy7:29

      Mm.

   3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr7:29

      Are there any transferable lessons from being first generation-

   4. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy7:33

      Mm

   5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr7:33

      ... uh, Jamaican immigrant?

   6. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy7:36

      Yeah. So what, so, um, the, the, there are things that, um, you know, my parents were saying, like literally I could hear them saying them now, right now is that, you know, you just have to work really hard for whatever you have. Nothing will be given to you. I mean, they, they, they arrived from Jamaica with, with nothing and, and they did, they worked incredibly hard. And growing up in a household, my, my parents, um, uh, they, they bought their house and they were, uh, one of the, you know, the first in that group, um, uh, to, to be able to save up the money for a deposit, and they bought a house and, and, and so on. Uh, so we learned the importance of working hard. Um, learned the importance of, uh, you know, there's a whole piece around just your values and, and, you know, trying or seeking to do the right thing. Um, you know, the- they, they had really high principles for that. It didn't mean that you necessarily always did it, and sometimes [chuckles] you messed up, you did things wrong. But the principles were there. Um, and, uh, you know, just, just getting on and getting ahead and, and, and making, uh, the best of situations, whatever it was. I mean, as I said, we often didn't have very much, but there was always somebody else that had less. Hence, you know, my mum just constantly inviting people in. We had cousins stay, we had random people stay because, um, it was really tight in the house, but we had a house. They didn't have one. So of course you could stay there and, and we'd, we would share and, and so on. So a lot of those things that, um, you know, really stayed with me over the time, over the years.

5. 9:10 – 15:42

   Sport as escape—and a crucible for resilience and elite performance

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr9:10

      Did that transfer into your attitude and mindset within sport?

   2. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy9:16

      Look, I, I, I, I would say, uh, initially, uh, over time, yes. But initially, maybe not so much because, um, uh, I, I, I i- in terms of me starting with sport, that was really about my pride. As I say, my pride was hurt. So I started, uh, um, doing this thing, and I, and I just trained and trained and trained and trained, uh, to get, uh, um, to get good. Um, um, but really, I mean, my parents, uh, went through a tough time when I started to get into, into canoeing. And, uh, there were rows at home, there were arguments at home. And now as a parent, I can see, think, "Oh my gosh," you know, you can see that. Is that all these kids going out, all these people, clearly they're under, uh, a lot of stress and strain. And I, I used sport just to get out the house. You know, it was a way to just not be there. You know, I often talk about the fact that, you know, I was old enough to, to understand what was going on, but not old enough to influence any of the outcomes. And then that, um, was really difficult and that was, uh, you know, my mental health really suffered at that time. And I would i- in, in some ways in a, uh, maybe not particularly healthy way when I think about it right now, really leaned into just the pain of that. You know, there's a, there's a saying that a friend and, and I had at the time when we were training really hard is that, you know, you'd push yourself, right? You'd push yourself as hard as you possibly can, right? That you couldn't, you know, possibly go any faster or push any harder, and that you're at the verge of collapsing. And at that moment when you couldn't give any more, you push a bit more, right? You know, and, you know, some of that now was just a bit masochistic, [chuckles] it was a bit crazy. But I now over time realized that I was just struggling. I was just struggling. And um, but I, I, I became successful, um, just through the effort and, and I started winning races. I think I won my first international race when I was 14 years old. Um, went on an English team tour. I had no idea what was going on. Stand up. It was like, "Hmm. All right. I'll race." And, and I won. And before I knew it, I was then training with the British team and then subsequently got into the British team. And when I had that success, then people would then ask me, "Well, how are you doing what you're doing?" And I was like, "I don't know." You know, and I started to think about, well, actually this is what I'm doing. And then I started to share. So initially it maybe it wasn't there in terms of... But later on it was, it was just a natural thing to do. Well, of course you'll share. You know, you share what you know. And, and, and I remember at the time it was such a brilliant, uh, uh, you know, environment. People, it's, it was the golden age of that sport, you know, whitewater canoeing for the UK. It's about 10,000 people Um, uh, um, in the ranked, in the ranking system, uh, across the whole of the, the country. And I, I got myself into the elite division, so top 100. And the elite division, uh, it's called Premier Division, um, of, uh, well, slalom in, uh, canoeing in the UK at that time, was just miles ahead of anywhere else in the world. So to illustrate this, the number one guy, my good friend, uh, Richard Fox, guy's just awesome, number one in the UK, number one in the world. Number gu- number two guy, Melvin, number two in the UK, number two in the world. Uh, the number three guy was probably argued number four in the world. And, and you just had, you know, this group, and we were all pushing each other on, um, spurring each other on. I remember training with Richard, uh, Richard Fox, a world champion, who interestingly enough ended up hooking up and marrying, uh, Miriam, uh, uh, Miriam Juslami, who was also a world champion. And, uh, they've got two girls, and, uh, now their oldest girl has subsequently won world championships-

   3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr13:15

      [laughs]

   4. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy13:15

      ... at the Olympics. That, that's just the sort of people we're dealing with. Anyway, I was, I was training with them, and I was on the, on the water and really struggling, really, really struggling to... Um, there, there's quite a technical bit of the course that I saw what he was doing, and Miriam, and every time they were just getting it better than me. And I was like, "Oh, I'm not... There's something I'm not quite getting here." And, and I asked him, asked Richard, and then he, you know, stopped his training. He said, "Well, John look, when you're coming in, you know, y- you gotta angle your boat a bit more, and you gotta do this, and you gotta get your, your center gravity, your weight slightly further forward." And I was like, "Got it, got it. Thank you." And I thought to myself, "Wait, hold on a second. Why are you doing this?" He's like, "What do you mean?" "Why are you helping me?" And he was like a exhale. He was like, "Come on, John, come in here." Right? And he put his paddles down, completely impacted his session, and he told me a story which I'd like to share from there, which I'll never forget. And he said, "John, I imagine myself now, um, sometimes, and I'm on a mountain, and it's covered in snow. And, uh, I'm running down the mountain, and there's a snowball, uh, behind me. And as I'm running, this thing's behind me, and it's almost like pursuing me. And as it's pursuing and following me down, it's gathering, uh, momentum and speed, and it's getting bigger, and it's getting just more powerful, and it's getting faster and faster. You're the snowball. All of you guys are the snowballs, and I know that one day you're gonna overtake me, and you're absolutely gonna flatten me. But I also know that the split second before you do that, I'll be running faster than I ever have done." He told me that, and then he paddled off. And I was just sat there, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is incredible. And it was that level of support for each other and recognizing that, yes, you're assisting, uh, others, but what it's doing in terms of your own, um, you know, uh, uh, your own abilities and your own just pushing you to go further and faster. So that really sunk in for me, that story, plus the community, as I said, like growing up. And that really spurred me on to going from competing, uh, to also coaching and subsequently coaching the British team, uh, you know, uh, coaching in the Olympics, world championships and so on, which was just, uh, amazing.

6. 15:42 – 18:44

   ‘Twice blessed’: why helping others makes you better too

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr15:42

      It's a hell of a story. You're in it for yourself, but you're in it together.

   2. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy15:48

      Yeah, for sure. For sure. Look, it's, it's really practical, right? It's really practical. I mean, if I may, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and stay close to the microphone, but if I illustrate this point, you're, you're never gonna see somebody kind of like this and talk about the, the importance of posture, right?

   3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr16:04

      [laughs]

   4. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy16:05

      You're not gonna do that, right? What you do is, so I'll come back up again, is that when you're coaching somebody, um, and you prepare for these things and you work on it, and you reflect on it, um, the whole of that process means that you self-correct. So if you're gonna talk to somebody about their finances, you're gonna think about your own finances. But we were talking before about the gym, you know, uh, and if I share with you on the gym, and as you know, I'm in the gym, um, pretty much most mornings, that you, you think about what it is that you do. So, so, you know, there's a saying, you know, when, when you support somebody else, you're twice blessed. You're, you're helping them, but then also it flows back on yourself. So, you know, there, there's a whole piece for me that, that there's so much of that that we're, we're, we're just not understanding. Very practically, I, I told you my parents, um, uh, bought the house. Um, now they were not earning very much money at all, but, but there's a system, a very old, uh, uh, West Indian Jamaican system called hands system. And I... and, and basically, you, you, you'd have a community and everybody would contribute to a hand, which basically means you just give some money into the center, right? So if you're the manager of it, I'll, I'll just, I'll give you 50 quid a week, whatever. And you'll take 50 quid a week from, you know, 10, 20, 30 people. And then, and then you will determine, well, John, I know you need to buy your house, so all the money goes to John for this week, and he puts his money down as a, a deposit. And, and they did that. But then also there was a trust that once I've got the money, I will continue to contribute for the coming weeks so that other people can get it. And that trust network was incredible. So, you know, that's just, again, another example of, um, you know, in the world, which is, uh, so often is so self-orientated. You know, th- there is... We just need to call out just the huge benefits, uh, uh, there are through just having this, uh, this mindset, this community-based mindset and, and working together and supporting each other. You know, twice blessed.

   5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr18:14

      I love that. I absolutely love that A piece of advice I received, and I can't remember who from, so I'm sorry that I'm not crediting them, but it was around if you're going through a hard time or suffering maybe what may be a episode of depression-

   6. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy18:26

      Mm

   7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr18:27

      ... uh, or a, a kind of depressive state, one of the greatest things that you can do to get out of that state is to serve.

   8. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy18:34

      Mm-hmm.

   9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr18:34

      To serve others.

   10. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy18:35

       Yeah.

   11. DJDavid McIntosh Jr18:35

       Do something for someone else.

   12. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy18:36

       Yeah, yeah.

   13. DJDavid McIntosh Jr18:37

       And it kind of loops back around to your twice blessed-

   14. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy18:39

       Yeah

   15. DJDavid McIntosh Jr18:39

       ... analogy. I've never heard that before-

   16. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy18:41

       Yeah

   17. DJDavid McIntosh Jr18:41

       ... but it's absolutely, uh, is ridiculously potent.

   18. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy18:44

       Yeah.

7. 18:44 – 23:26

   Privilege myths, real hardship, and the ‘drag’ metaphor for adversity

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr18:44

      And I love it. I absolutely love it. When I think of white water sports and I think of canoeing and that type of discipline, I think of privilege. I think of-

   2. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy18:58

      Mm

   3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr18:58

      ... a posh background.

   4. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy18:59

      Mm-hmm.

   5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr18:59

      I associate it with people far richer than I grew up-

   6. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy19:02

      Yeah

   7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr19:02

      ... and perhaps richer than how you grew up. Was that the case in that type of discipline?

   8. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy19:08

      No, I, and w- w- we had people from all walks of life. I mean, uh, you know, certainly myself [laughs] was, I, I was and, and still not posh at all. Um, you know, uh, when you, when you did your intro, you talked about a leaking boat, a leaky boat. I mean, this was because I didn't have any money, so I had to beg and borrow, and I, I competed. I started off, uh, competing, uh, with boats that had holes in them and, and, you know, go training and you, you have your duct tape 'cause you, you try and, uh, do your best. But it was literally, you know, you're paddling down the river against the clock, and as you're paddling down, y- so you've got this white water, just to explain this, so, uh, white water is, um, you know, moving quickly, uh, and that's because of the, the, the gradient off the, off the riverbank, but it's also because of the obstacles that have there. There are rocks, uh, you know, there are trees sticking out, uh, and all these various different obstacles there that you're having to, uh, to get down the course as quickly as possible and you've got these slalom gates. So you're going through this predefined course and, uh, fastest person down the course wins, making sure you don't hit a gate. If you hit a gate, you get X, uh, seconds of penalties. And at the same time, in a leaky boat, um, the boat is literally sinking as you're going, and what happens is, um, it's reducing in waterline. Um, and as it's sinking, uh, uh, you have this thing that's called hydrodynamic drag, right? Affects the, you know, effectively this is more friction, and what happens is that when you're getting more friction, more drag, you have to pull harder. You've got to... You need a lot more effort to go the same speed. Now, years later, as a coach, um, we started doing this exercise with a, uh, we call this a bungee system. So you, you've got a, like, a, a rope that you put around your boat and, uh, these are working with, you know, Olympic-level athletes, and what it does is it causes drag, hydrodynamic drag, and we'll do this off s- season before they go into Worlds or British Championship, Europeans or whatever. Um, and it builds that, uh, additional strength. Um, so you can put a rope around, you can put a little tennis ball, sort of, ball on it, and, and I thought, "Wow," because what it does is that when that rope's removed, you've got all that strength, and then you can then, you know, really apply that strength and you go a lot faster. And, and, and for me, I think that drag is just a, a really important metaphor for, for all of us who have, you know, have struggled or are struggled, struggling. Uh, uh, you know, it talks about being homeless, uh, or not having money, uh, uh, canoeing. I mean, I used to, uh, I used to go to Shepperton from, uh, where I lived in South London. I was on my bike. Just picture this. I would ride a bike with a canoe, right?

   9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr22:03

      [laughs]

   10. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy22:03

       Which is, I don't know what it is, whatever, 13, 14 foot like this, and then my paddle and my rucksack because I didn't have a car, couldn't afford one. And then you put it on the train, and then you'd go, you know, from, uh, Oval, uh, you know, take the train to Shepperton and then cycle again. So by the time I got there, I was knackered, right? Because I did all that cycling and I was carrying my boat. You had to really be careful 'cause if the wind came, it could literally blow you across the road [laughs] and you'd get yourself run over. So I, I, I had all of that. I'd get there, and I'd train really hard, and I'd have to do it all the way back. Um, over time, my fitness levels were just crazy good. So, so there was a, there's an important lesson there in terms of just reframing the friction, uh, and the, the, the, the, the drag as, um, you know, an opportunity to build resilience, an opportunity to build strength, an opportunity, you know, whether it be emotional strength, physical strength or whatever. And it doesn't mean that you don't, you know, uh, strive to get out the circumstance. But when you do, if you do, if you're fortunate enough to do that, all of that history, all of that muscle memory, all of that just comes with you and it gives you the potential to, you know, really propel you mo- in, uh, forwards in the future.

8. 23:26 – 38:48

   Elective hardship, process over outcome, and learning from defeat

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr23:26

      I love this idea and theme of elective hardship.

   2. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy23:31

      Mm.

   3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr23:34

      How much was your involuntary hardship as a child, as a young man, based on your circumstances that you found yourself in, how much of that contributed to your ability to cope with the elective hardship that you self-induced?

   4. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy23:49

      Look, I, I, I, I learned that, you know, this stuff was making me stronger, mentally stronger and, and so on, and, and I, I used to just have fun with it, right? So, um, remember, um, off season, uh, uh, taking a, taking a job, having a role. I was, uh, I was driving a, a three-and-a-half ton truck delivering carpet underlay for six weeks, whatever, and you know, these guys, I mean, they thought I was just I, I don't know what they thought of me [laughs] . Obviously, they thought I was a bit crazy or something, because what you would do is you'd get the address of where you needed to go to. You, you go into the loading bay. You would back right up to the loading bay. You open up the back, and then you would drop the underlay off. I didn't do that. I, I backed, uh, towards the, the loading bay, but I left a bit of a gap, and then I, I would get out and I would, uh, uh... I don't know. Let's just say we had, you know, five or six, uh, bits of carb- underlay, and maybe I could carry two, you know? I'd take one at a time, and I'd do shuttle runs back and forth, right? And I, I would, uh, try to beat the time of somebody who was- had backed in and did it properly, and I'd try and do it faster. So, you know, all of these things in terms of just introducing just a bit of friction, having some fun with it, um, that was a fitness thing. But it, it could be anything. It could be, you know, whatever it is in terms of, um, uh, you know, my time later on at KPMG. I would seek to introduce friction into that too, just to, um... whether I was doing some analysis, some financial analysis, or preparing to speak at, uh, um, at COP, uh, where there's a side event at the UN. You know, all these things, I think, "Well, how can I introduce a bit of friction and use that to build, uh, um, some more resilience, uh, some more strength, which will then help to propel me forwards?"

   5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr25:42

      I think in a society where we are more frictionless-

   6. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy25:47

      Mm.

   7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr25:48

      If you want food, you can order Uber Eats. If you want to transport yourself, you just call an Uber.

   8. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy25:53

      Yeah.

   9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr25:54

      We are facing an ecosystem and environment that discourages resistance-

   10. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy25:59

       Yeah

   11. DJDavid McIntosh Jr25:59

       ... and resilience. And I think that, especially as a young person, conditions them to think that life should be effortless.

   12. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy26:06

       Mm-hmm.

   13. DJDavid McIntosh Jr26:07

       And I truly believe that life is a great unknown, and the gym is such a great metaphor for life. Uh, when you enter a arena of hardship, whether that's professionally or personally, you try to bear the weight.

   14. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy26:19

       Mm.

   15. DJDavid McIntosh Jr26:19

       You struggle. You don't have that mind-muscle connection just yet.

   16. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy26:22

       Mm-hmm.

   17. DJDavid McIntosh Jr26:23

       And you strain yourself. You take a couple days to repair. You go back to the gym, and you c- can carry the weight, or you do two reps or three reps, reps, four sets, and then o- over time, you build resilience like a muscle.

   18. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy26:35

       Yeah.

   19. DJDavid McIntosh Jr26:35

       And it, it becomes like a bicep almost. You can flex it. You can show it off, and it not only is something with utility, but something that is almost like vanity. Like, it, it looks great. It gives you confidence, and I just think we- we're set up in a society where the environment and landscape around us discourages that.

   20. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy26:56

       Yeah. Yeah, it discourages that, and it, and it feels, you know, quite often that what, what I see is that, um, it's always about the, the shortcuts and the hacks and how can I get to this position, you know, now or faster or so on. But there's a piece around... You know, when, when I was coaching, um, uh, very, very, uh, very [laughs] good athletes. I mean, uh, uh... you're talking about people who have competed at, at Olympics, who have won medals, gold medals, silver medals, and so on. Um, we would always focus on the process, not the outcome, because we'd say that there's, there's so much in that that you couldn't control. So let's go back to whitewater slalom again. When you're, um, competing on a river, one of the biggest things that we feared on a river, you know what that was? It was the wind. It was the wind because you've got, uh, these gates which are sort of suspended down, and you have to go in between the gates, and you know, you know, it could happen. You're going down, and there's a gust of wind. It just moves it, right? Uh, and it can move it a little bit or a lot just before you get there, and it's, it's tough. It's tough. You have to be able to be agile enough to react and still navigate the gate and still get down there on time. And, and you know, it's not something you can control, so just don't worry about that, right? Don't worry about trying to win a race. I could get down a course in a world record time and think, "Yes, I did it," and somebody else has, has [laughs] done it a bit faster. Focus on the process, and the process is, is about executing with excellence. It's about doing your homework. It's about showing up, uh, on time with the right mindset, and when you do things like this over time, and it accumulates, and it really starts to get embedded in your DNA, you realize... And what I'd realized through this crazy career of, um, you know, being one of the designers at United Colors of Benetton, uh, to retraining in, in IT to, you know, uh, starting at KPMG in 2001, uh, to ending up I was on the UK board, you realize that actually with all these things, you can break them down to process. And what is the process here? How do I optimize the process? How do I execute consistently and with excellence? And when you do that, you realize, actually, I can turn it to many, many things in my life. And I, and I've talked to you about this before that, uh, look, I'm just rubbish at everything that I do, and I... We illustrated this with the, uh, you know, uh, canoeing and me capsizing within about 80 seconds [laughs] or whatever. Nobody else did, just me. Um, and, uh, but also from a work perspective, uh, I, I, I do a lot of international speaking now and, and, and so on, and people are, "Oh, you're really good at speaking." It's like, well, I mean, come on. You know, the, the first time I did it, it was so bad. If there was a button next to me which had, you know, open up earth and swallow whole, I would have been-

   21. DJDavid McIntosh Jr30:00

       [laughs]

   22. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy30:00

       ... pressing that like mad because it was dreadful. But I broke it down, just like with canoeing. Break it down. You know, what is it that you need to do? And, um, there's this person I worked with. I, I, I don't know if he didn't believe me, but he didn't necessarily believe or understood the extent to which I broke it down until w- we then worked together, and he subsequently Uh, ended up being my chief of staff, uh, you know, um, at K- at KPMG. And he saw that, you know, if I'm gonna speak, well, who's in the room? How many people? Who are they? Where are they coming from? Why are they coming here? Have they come here before? What is it they're expecting to g- get and they see from this? You do all this work, you do this homework. You know, what's been said about past talks, about whether they were good or they're not good or whatever. And doing the analysis, you do your homework, you do your research, you hand write out what you're gonna say. I probably hand write it out once or twice, then I'll underline the key words that I, uh, um, I want to bring across. Um, and then I'll record myself, uh, and, and play back maybe in the shower a couple of nights before, uh, my, you know, uh, these key points. And then you turn up and then you d- you do your thing and people say, "Oh, you look so natural," like you, you, you're just making it up, [laughs] but they've not seen all that hard work. And I think, I think the ability to break things down in, in, in, in its parts, to focus on the process, not the outcome, to all the things which are not controllable, just to leave that, to put that one side, and really pursue with passion, you know, progress. You know, uh, when you, when you were... When we were competing, we'd work. You'd have a four-year Olympic cycle or, or it could be a two-year world cycle. I mean, back in the day it was also one year sometimes. But you go in and you compete, competition's over, and you're immediately back onto the next cycle, right? Where could I, um, improve? And, uh, I, I know one of the things that we touched on is, is, is the fact that, um, you know, you have to get used to, uh, defeat. You have to get used to things not working out. It was that, was it 54% rule with Fed- Federer? 54% of his, uh, uh, of his, uh, points that he won. So there's a huge amount that he lost, but he won just enough to be su- successful as he was. And there was a whole piece around, you know, uh, in victory and in defeat, there are always learnings. So that's the piece that I focus on. Focus on process, focus on learnings, don't focus on outcome, lean into community, right? Um, twice blessed through communities, uh, and, and really leaning into just, just extracting the very most from every situation and doing the best you possibly can.

   23. DJDavid McIntosh Jr32:51

       M- my, my flatmate, uh, is going through a bit of a hard time at the moment, and, uh, personally.

   24. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy32:57

       Mm. Sorry to hear.

   25. DJDavid McIntosh Jr32:57

       And he, he's quite down- downtrodden by it. And I said to him, and br- bringing together the lessons of the 150 Origin stories that I've interviewed, my own, I said to him, "What you're going through now, this adversity, is an opportunity disguised in problems clothing."

   26. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy33:16

       Yeah. Yeah.

   27. DJDavid McIntosh Jr33:19

       And I think a problem is something that when you resolve it, so like numerically, when it appears, numerically you go down to minus one.

   28. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy33:29

       Yeah.

   29. DJDavid McIntosh Jr33:29

       You're one behind numerically of wh- wh- wh- where your baseline is, for example. And when you solve it and it's resolved, you go back to zero, you go back to homeostasis-

   30. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy33:38

       Mm
9. 38:48 – 41:19

   Homelessness and squatting: surviving instability with perspective and generosity

   1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr38:48

      Great advice, John. Can we speak about your period of homelessness-

   2. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy38:52

      Sure

   3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr38:53

      ...as a young person?

   4. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy38:54

      Yeah.

   5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr38:54

      Can you walk me through that?

   6. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy38:55

      Yeah. So, so I, you know, I alluded to the fact that my, my parents, um, you know, uh, uh, went through quite a difficult time. Um, I came home from school one day, opened the front door, sort of pushed it, and it's bang, the door was something there, and I got my head around the corner. It was, it was a bed, uh, a divan, uh, uh, in the hallway. And, and, um, Mom said, uh, "We're leaving." And I was like, "Okay," put my bag down, and, and we left. Now, um, we didn't have anywhere to live. So, uh, um, it, it was, it was a difficult time. Uh, we ended up, uh, squatting, uh, in the then notorious Peckham Rye estate. Uh, it was, it was a, a, it was a pretty rough place to live. A really, really rough place to live. Um, but, um, yeah, so we squatted in that place. Uh, I, I'm not qu- quite sure how long that, like a year, maybe, uh, two years or so. Um, it was, it was quite small. It wasn't big enough, uh, for us all to, um, to be in together, so we were sort of dispersed around different places [chuckles] around London, uh, until, um, you know, some time later, uh, we were housed by the council, um, uh, in the UK. So, and, and we went from Peckham, uh, to this particular estate, which was a really bad estate, and we went to a tough part of Brixton at the time, and it was like, "Yeah, we've really gone up in the world." And, and we would say, "Well, you're living there." It's like, "Oh my gosh, that's really rough." It's like, "Oh, no, this is really good."

   7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr40:27

      [laughs]

   8. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy40:27

      And so again, like it's all-

   9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr40:29

      Reframing.

   10. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy40:29

       Yeah, reframing. All things are, are relative, right? So, so yeah, so that, that was difficult, but honestly, we just got on with it. We, we got on with it. I think my mum worked several jobs at that time. We didn't have very much. You just had to do what you could to make ends meet. Um, as I said, um, you know, I was, I was still canoeing then, and I would take the train, I'd take a bike, I would get lifts, I would get old kayaks and, and, and, and just do what I had to do. But, but there was always, um, uh, uh, there was always somebody who had things tougher than you did, y-you know? And, and, and we saw that, and even despite and even through that, my mum's generosity, uh, it just continued. And, and she was generous, so we were generous, and you just help people out. So that's what you did.

10. 41:19 – 42:01

    Identity as a verb: reinvention, curiosity, and entering fashion via Benetton

    1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr41:19

       Your story doesn't travel in straight lines. It seems to overlap.

    2. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy41:24

       Yeah.

    3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr41:24

       And I think about the power of personal narrative and identity. It would be easy for someone who had experienced homelessness to identify as someone who's homeless.

    4. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy41:33

       Hmm.

    5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr41:34

       It's easy for someone who competed in elite sport as a... Is a, is, is canoeist the right term? Canoer?

    6. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy41:40

       Yeah. Well, canoeist. Yeah.

    7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr41:41

       Canoeist.

    8. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy41:41

       Canoeist is the right term.

    9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr41:42

       Identifying solely as a canoeist.

    10. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy41:44

        Yeah.

    11. DJDavid McIntosh Jr41:45

        But then you went on to become a fashion designer.

    12. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy41:47

        Yeah.

    13. DJDavid McIntosh Jr41:48

        And you seem to be very much a verb and not a noun, John.

    14. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy41:52

        [laughs]

    15. DJDavid McIntosh Jr41:52

        That's how I would describe you. You're, you're a doer.

    16. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy41:55

        Yeah.

    17. DJDavid McIntosh Jr41:55

        And it, it seems like all of these things intertwine and overlap. How did you get into fashion?

11. 42:01 – 55:31

    Mastering the ‘break it down’ method: Italian interview, comfort-zone expansion, global moves

    1. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy42:01

       Yeah. So, so when I was, um, training full time, so I, you know, my first international, uh, I competed for England. Uh, so home nations would have people compete, you know, England, Wales, Scotland compete in an international race to won it. And then, um, subsequently then, I, I moved, uh, as a teenager with, with, with, you know, blessings from home, uh, to Nottingham. That was really the epicenter of the world for the sport at the time. There's, um, incredible facilities there, uh, to train. There still is today, uh, for, for canoeing and also for rowing. And, um, you know, we were encouraged to have, uh, as much as possible balance in our life. Uh, so, uh, we're encouraged to study, uh, at the same time. So I, I, I, I went through school. Uh, I, I think, what did I take? Like, eight GCSEs. I failed seven of my eight [laughs] and, uh, uh, which was, which was pretty bad. And this is what I said, and, and I really do mean it, sometimes I'm rubbish at everything I do. Um, but then I can go back and unpick it and unpack it and, uh, you know, I really just leaned into the discipline of sport at the time to say, "Right, I'm gonna do this thing now." And I went back, resat all my GCSEs, passed them all, got into my A-levels, passed them all. And then because we were encouraged to study or to go to uni or, or, or some higher education at the same time, just to balance the sport time, which is pretty intense. Um, I, I'm quite a creative person. I, I liked drawing, I liked making things with my hands, so I, I did a, a one-year art and design foundation at Nottingham Trent University, and at the end of that I, I wanted to continue to make stuff with my hands, but I didn't know what, what to do. And then I ended up applying for the knitwear course, and, uh, I did, uh, uh, knitwear design there. It's a four-year degree. Um, year three was, um, uh, um, a placement year where you'd go out into in- industry. I did lots of bits of work, lots of freelance work, and I ended up in, um, uh, in Italy at the United Colors of Benetton. Um, and the reason for this, it was, uh, because all throughout my c- career, certainly with sport, I just, I just continued to be curious. And, um, you know, I, I think it's really important when people talk about intellectual curiosity, what I tend to lean into is, um, impact curiosity or commercial curiosity. So impact curiosity, uh, basically means that... Look, when I subsequently, uh, I started designing, if you design something, you want to see it in as many stores as possible. Uh, you want that impact, right? That reach. So how do I do that? So I could be as good a designer as, as I possibly can, but I don't-- I'm not responsible for it in stores. It's the commercial managers that are responsible. So starting to understand, well, who are the commercial managers? What are they looking for? How could I, how can I influence that? Um, so, so at the time during my course, I was being very curious, and there was a, a lot of, uh, you know, technology, CAD/CAM, computer-aided design, computer-aided manufacturing, started to come up, and I was like, well, curious about that. Well, what's happening there? Uh, what does that mean? What does that mean for the future of the industry? And I happened to, uh, um, learn, uh, uh, a particular system that the United Colors of Benetton had heavily invested in at the time, uh, unbeknownst to myself at the time. And, and, uh, and that was my route to go over, uh, on a three-month placement to work with them, um, to, uh, work out how on earth you got these, uh, they're called intarsia machines. How you get them to work properly is by a Japanese company called Shima Seiki, and I was like, "Yeah, I know how it works, and this is how you design for them, and this is what you, this is what you can do." And it was, um, it was successful. And, um, I remember speaking to, uh, uh, the Signora, this is my boss. It was Mrs. Benetton, Signora Giuliana Benetton. I spent a lot of time with Paola Bertolini. That was her, uh, her daughter, uh, uh, her oldest daughter. And Paola said to me that, "I know what you think you're going to do. Uh, you think you're going to, um, wrap up now at the end of your three months and then go back to UK and then graduate and finish your degree. But let me tell you what you are going to do. You're gonna stay here. Uh, we're gonna give you a job, and then a year later, rather than finishing degree, you're gonna hire the people on the course [laughs] to come and work for you." Uh, and, uh, and, and I was like, "Oh, wow. Uh, okay." So that's what I did. Um, but I had to pass a, a, an interview, which was an, an hour interview, uh, uh, purely in Italian. Uh, I didn't speak Italian, uh, so I had to learn, uh, it really quickly. So then I broke down those parts again and, you know, it was write down every single question that I, I, I thought that, um, Paola, uh, and the others were likely to ask me. Write down its every answer to those questions. Write down a couple of questions that I'd like to ask her and, and, and what she might say. Uh, get a... This is pre-smartphone, right? Get a, uh, get my, uh, dictionary, translate them, uh, from English into Italian. Then I went in, uh, over a week and a bit or two weeks speaking to friends, uh, primarily through lunchtime, and they marked up my homework, said, "No, grammatically, you wouldn't say it this way." Um, uh, uh, and then so I rewrote it and then memorized a lot, uh, uh, memorized it all, and, uh, did the interview and got the job.

    2. DJDavid McIntosh Jr47:38

       [laughs]

    3. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy47:38

       And that's what I did.

    4. DJDavid McIntosh Jr47:41

       Oh, well, you're mental, John. [laughs]

    5. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy47:45

       [laughs]

    6. DJDavid McIntosh Jr47:45

       What a life. It's just so incredible. It's just so incredible. Like, white water sports, knitwear, canoeing, like, all dominated from the outside in by people that don't look and sound like you or sh- or, or, or should.

    7. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy48:04

       Correct.

    8. DJDavid McIntosh Jr48:04

       Yet, as a trailblazer, whether belongs to you or not, you said, "I'm going to do what I can't."

    9. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy48:10

       Yeah.

    10. DJDavid McIntosh Jr48:11

        Like, I'm gonna break through these barriers and define my own path. Coupled with, it seems at every stage gate, someone that believed in you and gave you this opportunity.

    11. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy48:20

        Yeah, for sure. For sure.

    12. DJDavid McIntosh Jr48:21

        Um, it's not about the people that noticed you, it's about the people that noticed you and did something about it.

    13. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy48:26

        Yeah.

    14. DJDavid McIntosh Jr48:27

        And did something with that noticing.

    15. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy48:28

        Yeah.

    16. DJDavid McIntosh Jr48:29

        And it's just great.

    17. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy48:30

        Look, I, I, I do believe that in the fundamental, um, goodness of the human spirit. I, I do believe in that. And you know what? Uh, sometimes, uh, I'm not right, but I believe in it in any case, because at the end of the day, holding onto something, a belief system, the key question for me that you need to ask yourself is what does that do for you? So if you're holding onto a system, whatever it is, which is gonna get you angry and bitter, let it go. Leave it. If you're holding onto a belief system which may be true, uh, 90% of the time or even 50% of the time, but it's actually gonna spur you on, never let it go, right? Because it, it, it can become true for yourself. Uh, um, and look, you know, right through all of, all these things when you, when you reference... Because it does seem like really crazy, as I said, you literally could not make it up, right? Um, but, uh, getting into, uh, canoeing was my vehicle just to get out the household. And from canoeing, I was encouraged to study. I was like, okay, so, you know, somebody being really helpful there, and I leaned into that and then went into, uh, um, you know, art design, knitwear design. From there, got a job in Benetton. In Benetton, I realized two things that... The importance of technology, so I started studying that, and I, I, I, I got qualification in, in IT project management, Prince2 methodology, blah, blah, blah, all this stuff, dynamic systems development methodologies, so studying this stuff, but also on the commercial side. Um, I got homesick, so when I left, uh, Italy, uh, after some years and came, you know, back home, um, you know, such a great relationship, the Benettons, they were amazing. They were so good that they literally made a job up for me so that I could be a freelance designer. And then I started also working in the commercial side. So I would des- make designs, uh, put them in the collection, and then turn up as a commercial buyer and buy my own designs for the stores in, uh, um, you know, uh, across the north of England and Scotland. And, and, and we had, like, massive hits, massive seller, you know, because it was... I was, I was okay with taking risks and, you know, w- you know, I studied it, I looked at these things, took risks, things that maybe some of the other commercial managers wouldn't buy, and it was really, really successful. And then it was from doing that, that, um, I was noticed in the industry, and then I ended up doing more freelancing, and I ended up working with, um, a very wealthy, uh, Chinese family. That's how I ended up being out in China and working in Hong Kong. I was there in '97 at the time of the handover from China. Uh, got-

    18. DJDavid McIntosh Jr51:14

        Surprised if you didn't do it yourself. [laughs]

    19. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy51:16

        No. [laughs] Well, look, it's, it's just... Look, you know, there's just an ocean-

    20. DJDavid McIntosh Jr51:22

        [laughs]

    21. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy51:22

        ... of possibilities, right? You know, and there's a piece for me... I mean, I often do this, th- this, this thing whereby if, if you take a piece of paper and you just put a dot in the center, right, the dot represents you, and then you put a, a circle around that dot, and that represents your comfort zone. And what I try to do is to live permanently with one foot inside and one foot outside that circle, that comfort zone, okay? So you're just pushing and you're trying things, okay? And what happens is, when you're on the edge of your comfort zone, guess what happens? Your comfort zone expands. So then you have to reorientate yourself and push out a bit more, and then it expands and push out a bit more. And it's, it's been incredible because as I said, that from China, then that got me to Thailand. You know, subsequently with Thailand, you know, was back into IT, then into, uh, KPMG. KPMG, uh, um, doing, uh, internal IT projects. I ended up, um, heading that for the UK for five years before then doing external IT projects and then from there doing diligence, diligence into M&A, M&A UK board, UK board into a passion of mine, which comes back to community, which is, um, the S of ESG and sustainability and, and the social aspects. Through that, that's when we met the, the Queen. Meeting the Queen, end up meeting the King, dinner with the King, [laughs] uh, uh, leading, uh, ESG globally. And, um, as I said, all of these things, whilst they, they seem quite des- disparate and, and, uh, um, unconnected, they are interconnected. Uh, but, but there's this risk-taking, calculated, uh, leaning into the friction, right? Um, driving and building the community and just trying to do the best you can at whatever it is that you're doing. Um, and one thing I haven't mentioned, which is really important, just having fun along the way, right? You, you talked about trailblazer and breaking into areas and places, um, places that people just don't look like you. When I lived in, uh, in Treviso in, in Italy, uh, and was working, uh, in Ponzano, place, uh, where Benetton was, there was two Black people, me and Anthony. I know his name, right? It's me and Anthony.

    22. DJDavid McIntosh Jr53:44

        [laughs]

    23. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy53:44

        Right? There was nobody else, right? There was nobody else, okay? And, you know, similarly, when I was in Hong Kong flying back and forth to China and so on, uh, um, flying back to China and nobody else looked like me, right? And I, and, and I do remember actually one time I was flying in for a big pitch and I was quite down, quite depressed and, and just feeling a, a little bit like a, um, an interloper, you know, uh, like, uh, I didn't belong. I thought, "I'm the only Black guy going in there." And I thought, "I'm the only Black guy going in there. I'm the only Black guy going there." And I remembered, and then the reframe was like, bing, you know what? They're gonna remember me, right? So then from that and through that, there was just a swagger coming in the door. I was like, "You all right? Hello." [laughs] "Look at this." And, and, you know, you know, when- whenever, whenever you feel like that, you know, as I said, there's always an ability just to, just to have a little bit of fun with this, right? Um, imposter syndrome is Everybody feels that, whether it's, it's your age, it's your... You know, we've talked a lot about your background in terms of where you grew up or, or whatever, you know. It's, we all have that. We all have that. But all of these things really serves and links to your origin story, and you know what? It makes us interesting, right? Who wants to have a conversation with people who are just boring and did exactly the same thing that everybody else did? And when you're connecting with people, and you can tell them a story and you can share something with them which is outside of their, their sphere of, of, um, experience, uh, it's, it just makes for great conversations and, and, um, anyway, that, you know.

12. 55:31 – 1:00:55

    Imposter syndrome, being underestimated, and turning difference into an advantage

    1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr55:31

       I, I absolutely love that, and I have a kind of cognitive reframe around imposter syndrome. I think it's a gift. I think when you have-

    2. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy55:38

       Mm

    3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr55:38

       ... this, this feeling of imposter syndrome, that, that kind of sensation in your gut that you feel like you don't belong somewhere, say thank you, because you don't belong anywhere, you know? Because you are this completely unique lattice of highlights, lowlights, experiences-

    4. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy55:52

       Mm

    5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr55:52

       ... values, and it's your duty to show up as that because no one else can.

    6. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy55:56

       Yeah.

    7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr55:56

       I think Oscar Wilde once said, "If you're gonna be anyone, be yourself-

    8. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy56:00

       Yeah

    9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr56:00

       ... because everyone else is taken."

    10. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy56:02

        Absolutely.

    11. DJDavid McIntosh Jr56:02

        And I think, like, rooting myself in that frame of mind when I feel imposter syndrome has been really important.

    12. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy56:08

        Mm-hmm.

    13. DJDavid McIntosh Jr56:08

        Because being me is my competitive advantage, because no one can outwork me at being me.

    14. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy56:14

        That's spot on.

    15. DJDavid McIntosh Jr56:15

        And no one can enjoy being me more than me.

    16. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy56:17

        Yeah.

    17. DJDavid McIntosh Jr56:17

        And bringing those two things together at the same time is, is my competitive advantage.

    18. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy56:22

        Yeah.

    19. DJDavid McIntosh Jr56:22

        And, uh, and, and it's not just me kind of postulating and, and thinking this a- aloud. I remember spending time with Russell Kane, the comedian, and I asked him, "Well, I, I'm a kind of open spot comedian. I've done five and 10 minutes. I'm trying to write a full set, and do you have any a- a- advice, uh, to me to, to write this new material?" He says, "Just lean into all of your quirks."

    20. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy56:42

        Yeah.

    21. DJDavid McIntosh Jr56:42

        "The Scottishness, the gingerness-

    22. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy56:44

        Yeah. [laughs]

    23. DJDavid McIntosh Jr56:44

        ... the, the shortness-

    24. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy56:45

        Yeah

    25. DJDavid McIntosh Jr56:46

        ... the accounting background, the podca- everything, because that makes you you."

    26. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy56:50

        Yeah.

    27. DJDavid McIntosh Jr56:50

        And it makes, it, it kind of filters out people that don't wanna come and see you, so you get a ca- captive audience. But also, it just, it, it, it brings such better material. And then when I interviewed Jimmy Carr, he says, and this is my favorite line that he, he kind of said to me. He says, "I'm not in the comedy, I'm not in the comedy business. I'm in the Jimmy Carr business."

    28. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy57:10

        Yeah. [laughs]

    29. DJDavid McIntosh Jr57:10

        "I'm a non-fungible human, and business is booming." [laughs]

    30. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy57:14

        Well, look, the... Can, can you imagine me, uh... Well, I, I don't know Jimmy Carr, but I'll talk about yourself. Me, me, uh, speaking at an event about Scottishness, and, and somebody'd be like, "What, what are you talking about?" You know? I mean, look, yeah, for sure I could, I, I could do some research. I can come up with lots of stats and so on, but I will never have the level of authenticity that you have. And, um, you know, one, one of the things and one of the tools that I, I, I, I lean into when I'm coaching business leaders, and I, I really, uh, you know, encourage them to lean into the intersection of their what's uniquely them, which is what we talked about, on one hand. So what is unique to you, your story, your understanding, you know, your gifts, your experiences? Um, uh, and where does that intersect with the company's strategy and what people are prepared to pay for, your clients, your customers are prepared to pay for? At the center of that, that's your sweet spot, right? It's your uniqueness, it is driving business performance, and you've got commercial, uh, you know, uh, commercial reality there. And if you can get in the center of that, you know, you will outperform everybody because it's uniquely you. And I, I, I do think that's really important. So, so right, you know, now, I mean, I, I, I spoke at, at, at an event and, uh, you know, and, and I recognize, like I, I, I look younger than I actually am, and, uh, I-
13. 1:00:55 – 1:14:38

    Financial independence vs the hedonic treadmill: controlling lifestyle inflation

    1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:00:55

       You've had a wildly successful career, both from a fiscal point of view and a non-fiscal point of view

    2. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:01:01

       Mm-hmm

    3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:01:03

       You chose to retire-

    4. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:01:04

       Yeah

    5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:01:05

       ... very recently. I got to see you in your last week-

    6. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:01:07

       Yeah

    7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:01:07

       ... of your corporate retirement. And one of the things you've been teaching me a lot about recently, in private, is the hedonic treadmill and lifestyle inflation.

    8. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:01:17

       Yeah.

    9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:01:18

       And I know financial resilience and financial literacy is something that's really important to you.

    10. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:01:22

        Mm-hmm.

    11. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:01:23

        Right now, especially myself, we're feeling this kind of crunch of the cost of living crisis.

    12. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:01:29

        Mm-hmm.

    13. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:01:30

        Uh, housing costs and lifestyle costs are increasingly having a sterling-shaped noose around our necks-

    14. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:01:39

        Yeah

    15. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:01:39

        ... at the moment. What advice would you give to someone who is optimizing solely for financial reward in their life-

    16. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:01:49

        Mm

    17. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:01:49

        ... and maybe mitigating the ikigai of-

    18. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:01:52

        Mm

    19. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:01:53

        ... what they love doing-

    20. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:01:54

        Yeah

    21. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:01:54

        ... what they care about, and what they find fun, and they're only optimizing for how much money they can make?

    22. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:02:00

        Look, um, what I would say is that you're never gonna make enough, right? And, and I say that as, um, you know, as, as you said, I, I've retired. Um, you know, a lot of the people that I work with... I mean, as a partner at KPMG, an equity partner, you get paid very, very well, and I was, I was there for a long time. I was at the, um, you know, um-

    23. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:02:22

        Could you share how much that is? I, I know it's publicly available online.

    24. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:02:24

        Yeah. So I, I, I can't remember. So I think, uh, in the UK now, uh, average partner pays, I wanna say about 800 and something, 820 plus, uh, thousand pounds. So, uh, which is, which is not... It's, it's, it's a lot of money, right? And I, I, I got paid more than average 'cause I was a senior partner and so on. So that gives you order, order of magnitude in terms of, um, you know, pay. And look, I, I, I know people [chuckles] that... There was, there, there was, uh, uh, this one insta- I, I don't, I don't think I told you this. Um, that I, I was, uh, working, I was abroad at the time, uh, big, big, big meeting. This is some years ago. And I, I had a key role in presenting some, some data the next day. So I was, uh, in my hotel room, just outside is, like, a bit of a patio area. Going through all my papers, getting stuff ready, and, uh, this, this, uh, very senior person was in the room next door, and he came out and said, "Oh, can I join you?" And I said, "Oh, yeah." And I thought he was gonna go through the paperwork with me. I sat down. He started crying. And I was like, "Uh, and what's happening right now?" And what he was talking about was the fact that he was due to retire soon, and he didn't have enough, and, uh, he didn't know what he was gonna do with his life, and he'll have to get a job, and da, da, da. And this is somebody who was very, very wealthy, really wealthy. And this was some years ago, and that, that shaped a lot of my thinking in this space. So, uh, just to share a couple of specifics that I do. Um, number one, like, i-in, in terms of where we, my wife and I lived, I always lived somewhere that we, we could... It was well within the means of what we could afford, well within the means. We didn't stretch ourselves crazily. We were, um... You know, as I said, I was homeless. I, I've had really-- I've come from [chuckles] not very, very much at all. My level of expectation is quite low. I mean, that's what they say is there's a difference between a rich man and a poor man is your level of expectation, right? Um, so, uh, my level of expectation is down, was down here, right? And I so exceeded that, okay? And in terms of lifestyle inflation, it was just being really mindful. You know, there, there's certain things, I do like nice treats. When I, when I travel, I, I do like to travel, you know, uh, uh, um, you know, nice class to travel and, and so on, but there are other things I'm just not that bothered about. Um, and just being really careful that you're not doing things to, um, just because everybody else is. You know, um, you know, everybody's got or, or all these other partners driving Aston Martins, so I need to drive an Aston Martin. I walk or take the train most of the time. I do have a reasonable-- I've got a nice car. I've got a, a Jaguar and an EV, but, um, it's exceptionally low mileage, and I'm probably [chuckles] not gonna change the car again for, uh, for a long time. And all of this is really... The, the reason why I do these things and the reason why we talked about finances and, and so on, and when I coach senior people, uh, the two things that I focus on t- primarily is show me your diary, show me your calendar, 'cause I can, you know, 'cause I wanna see where you're focusing your time, and actually seeking to, to reconfigure that and carve time out for intellection, for time for reflection, time to connect the dots, time for balance, self-care, as well as, um, driving impact in your work is one thing. And then the second thing is show me your finances. Because, you know, really what you're seeking to avoid is, is having a career whereby you've earned the sorts of mon-money that I've talked about for 20 years plus, but in, you still don't feel that you have enough. 20 years, okay? So being mindful of that, and also really importantly, you referenced treadmill, is this whole metaphor that I often use is that, you know, I, I felt that sometimes you're like, you, you, you're on a treadmill, it's on an incline, and then, you know, your managers or, or your leaders have just got their finger on the go faster button, and they're looking at you [chuckles] , right? I wanted to have control of that. So for me, you know, progressing, breaking down the const- the constituent, uh, parts to, to progress, to get into leadership was about taking control of my life. Uh, lifestyle inflation was about maintaining control, and then therefore it means that you can take risks, right? You don't get to positions whereby, and I've heard this, I'd really like to do this, but I can't. I don't have any choice because I need the bonus at the end of the, the year. It's like, well, hold on a second. A bonus should just be a bonus. What is it that you're doing that, in your life that you've got high degree of dependency on that, right? What, what, what's that all about? Um, and leaning into that And then, and then just being bold enough to say, "Actually, you know what? I can step out." And I stepped out because I have enough, you know, and I know what enough is, and I've got more than enough. And, and, and specifically in looking at systems, I really, truly, honestly believe that the impact that I can make now is far greater than the impact I could have before. And I've got this crazy target, I don't think I've told you this, that I'm working on [laughs] series of projects to positively impact the lives of a billion people, uh, around the world, and we've probably mapped this out to about half a billion so far in terms of work that we're starting to do with, um, heads of states, with governments, and so on. So that is the, one of the next things that I'm leaning into as well as, uh, my book. I'm gonna get my book finished this year. Um, you know, really around this theme of, like, seriously you could not make this up, um, in terms of-

    25. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:08:01

        That, that should be the title. [laughs]

    26. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:08:03

        Yeah, maybe. [laughs] Yeah. Or maybe if, if your listeners could just give a, you know, a view if they like that as a title, maybe I'll lean into that. But, but, you know, decoding, uh, some of these things and, and just, just giving and offering up really, really practical this is what it means. When I talked about, you know, I just learnt the language, I broke it down, break it down in terms of how you can do these things in a way which is, you know, not massively complicated, relatively easy to do, going from, you know, completely fluffing my lines on a, on a speech to, you know, being on a stage at COP and whatever and being able to present really complex topics. So I want to decode that, and linking back to the whole spirit of community again, I wanna share it. So that's the, gonna be a big focus this year, getting the book out, uh, leaning into that billion do- a billion people impacted and, uh, just trying to move that forwards.

    27. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:09:02

        I love that. One of the themes around financial literacy and resilience that I brought out in your sentiment was this idea of values-based or d- status-based decision-making.

    28. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:09:17

        Mm-hmm.

    29. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:09:18

        For example, some people might buy branded clothing-

    30. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:09:24

        Mm-hmm
14. 1:14:38 – 1:22:22

    Loss as a turning point: 2016 grief, health, and reorienting toward meaning

    1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:14:38

       I heard this quote, and I've relayed it before on the podcast, so I'm sorry if anyone's listened to this before, but some people are so poor, all they have is money.

    2. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:14:47

       [laughs]

    3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:14:48

       And it makes me think, and I'm not linking this to your story, but I remember, or I'm reminded of the year of 2016-

    4. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:14:59

       Yeah

    5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:15:00

       ... which seems to be a very transformative-

    6. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:15:02

       Yeah

    7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:15:02

       ... year for you-

    8. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:15:03

       Yeah

    9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:15:03

       ... um, personally, where you were-- You received a piece of news-

    10. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:15:09

        Yeah

    11. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:15:09

        ... two or three in the morning.

    12. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:15:11

        Yeah.

    13. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:15:11

        You were working your laptop on a due diligence bid or project, and it seems like that event was something that was a pivot or sliding door moment in your own career.

    14. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:15:23

        Well, let me, if I connect a couple of dots on this. So, um, the, the, um, so in, in the run-up to 2016, uh, um, the, the, yeah, the-- My phone rang. I, I don't know. It was, it was, um, two, three o'clock in the morning. I, I, I don't get calls at two, three o'clock in the morning. And when, uh, when your phone rings, then you know something's not quite right. And I looked at it for a couple of rings, and then I picked it up, and it was, uh, one of my brothers, my older brothers, and he just said, uh, uh, "Roger", who's, uh, a brother, he just said, uh, "Roger's dead." That was, that was the call. And, and there was a pause, and I was like, "I, I, I, I don't understand, Roger." And he said, "I don't know what to tell you. He's dead." I was like, "Well, but I just spoke to him a couple of, you know, a few days ago." And he said, "We found him, and he's dead. I-- and that's it." I said, "Okay. Thank you." And then I put the phone down. And then almost, you know, you have this out-of-body experience so that you, you sort of step up and you can see yourself. You look at yourself, and I'm looking at myself, and I'm on the floor cross-legged. I've got my laptop. I was working on a due diligence report that needed to be in and, and, uh, the next, uh, morning. And I thought, "What, what am I doing?" You know, this report was just not important at all, and my head just started spinning, and, and, and that was a key moment. And so that was my brother. So that was in the run-up. That was prior to 2016. Uh, 20-- I, I talked about living in Hong Kong, uh, and, uh, I got back from Hong Kong at the end of 2015. Um, you know, I, I, I have a, um, an illness, a, a genetic, uh, illness called sickle cell. It's causing me a few problems and, and, uh, one of my sisters was not very well also and sort of came back home at the end of 2015. And, um, uh, uh, towards the end of 2015, we was away with my family and, and I got a call, and it was another brother to say, uh, "You need to come home." Uh, and I said, "Well, what's going on?" And he said, "It's Pauline. It's my sister. Uh, she's had an accident." And, and it was very much, "Oh, okay. All right." And I was on the motorway. I, I was on hands-free, and I took the call, and my heart almost just stopped. And I, I just remember thinking, "Stay calm. Stay in the middle of the lane. Just drive. Just be careful." And, and he said, "No, she's not. You just need to come home." And I was in the car with my wife and, and, um, my kids in the back, and I said, "Okay." And we just got on a flight as soon as we could. That was late 2015. And, um, uh, uh, I think it was the maybe 30th of December or so, just before the new year or even the 31st of December, got the first flight we could. And she died, uh, on the 1st of December 2016. And, uh, um, in, uh, I think it was the April, my best friend at work, uh, uh, Mo, uh, our good friend, uh, Mo, uh, he died, uh, in, in the April the 20, 2016. Uh, I was with him on Wednesday. The last thing I ever said to him, uh, we were working on a project. We had a, an hour-long meeting, and in the hour, uh, we finished it early in about 25 minutes 'cause we just got through stuff quickly. It's just the two of us. Um, and he got up I think about three times, and he had made himself coffees because, uh, it was similar with the two, three o'clock in the morning working in diligence. We were literally working day and night. It was really hard, real slog. And the last thing I said to him is, "Mo, you look terrible." That was the last thing I ever said to him. And I said, "Look, sort yourself out, mate. Get some rest." And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, I will, I will." And I said, "Stop telling me you will. Don't tell me that you will. Just do it." Um, and on the Saturday he died. He had a heart attack. And, uh, that was in the April. And in, in the summer, um, I talked to you about my, my winning my first international event, uh, when I was 14. Uh, um, the, the, the, the... My friend since then, so it's my oldest, uh, longest, uh, friend, Graham, uh, his heart failed and he died. Uh, and that was in August. Now, now, uh, uh, August 2016. So all of these people, um, they di- they're all in their 40s, all died really suddenly, unexpectedly, and it was just in an instant. And you're absolutely right. You know, a lot of these things, it just really caused me just to question what on earth are you, what on earth are you doing, right? And also, you know, we, we, we all ex- We've no, we've no idea, [laughs] right, what's gonna happen tomorrow. And, uh, and I think it's just really important that, that we, we understand that, uh, we move forwards with humility. Uh, we do what we can, uh, to not only to get ahead and to progress things for ourselves, but then to bring others up at the long time because we're twice blessed in doing that. And, and that's part of the reason why, um, reason why, um, I, I, I live in the house I live now and I sort of got the, the... You talk about the gym and the sauna and whatever, is because before then I was saving money. I was saving money. I was real... You know, we lived in quite a small place and saving and saving, and I thought, "What am I saving all this money for?" Right. Enjoy things, you know, enjoy yourself. So, um, but also enjoy experiences. I, I, I don't know if you know this, I, I took six months off work, um, and I, uh, I, I built my house. So the house you, you come and see, I built it, uh, with a bunch of people myself. Uh, so I had that experience. Uh, I did that and, and then as I said, just trying to look after ourselves, our emotional, physical, mental wellbeing, try to be a good example for our kids, open up our house, share it with others, and, uh, just do what we can because none of us know how long we, we have. But, you know, all of these experiences, um, good, bad, and indifferent, gives you an opportunity for learnings. And, and, and also, um, I do feel that it enhances who, who, who you can be as an individual. When you experience loss, um, it really means that you hold onto things or you cherish things, or you can empathize with others more. So I, I do try to reframe that and, and say, "Well, okay, well this has happened. How can goodness come from this?"

    15. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:22:00

        Grief is the price we pay for love.

    16. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:22:03

        Yeah.

    17. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:22:04

        I wanna, I wanna dedicate that lesson to Roger-

    18. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:22:08

        Mm.

    19. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:22:08

        Pauline-

    20. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:22:09

        Thank you

    21. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:22:09

        ... Mo, and Graham.

    22. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:22:10

        Thank you.

    23. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:22:11

        I wanna recognize them and, uh, they're part of your story-

    24. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:22:14

        Mm

    25. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:22:14

        ... John. I wanna loop this round and end the book on how we started it.

    26. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:22:22

        Yeah.

15. 1:22:22 – 1:41:17

    Meeting the Queen, gratitude to the Trust, dinner with King Charles—and turning pain into service

    1. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:22:22

       The Queen-

    2. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:22:23

       Yeah

    3. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:22:23

       ... and the King.

    4. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:22:24

       Yes, yes. Yes, indeed.

    5. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:22:25

       How did your relationship begin with the royal family?

    6. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:22:29

       Yeah. So, so, so you and I, yeah, so we, we met through, um, uh, um, this whole thing. So the Queen, um, uh, she cut the ribbon on, uh, KPMG's offices and, and building in, in Canary Wharf, where we both worked at. Uh, so she dedicated the building then, whenever, however many years ago when we opened it. And it was coming to the 150-year anniversary of KPMG in the UK. And the Queen, uh, our, you know, uh, um, really, um, it was wonderful, just agreed to, uh, meet a bunch of people from KPMG, uh, led by our, our senior partner at the time, who was a... Senior partner is a sort of combination of CEO and chair role. And, uh, you and I, along with some others, were selected to meet the Queen. Uh, now, um, unfortunately, there was a interloper in that process, which was COVID. Uh, so, uh, it got delayed a little bit, and then they decided to go ahead, but then flip, you know, flip it from a physical call to a virtual, uh, virtual call. And, and then therefore, uh, we, we had our moment, didn't we? We had our moment to, uh, to say hi, uh, to the Queen. And, and I remember, and maybe 'cause I, I'm not quite sure what your experience was, but for me, uh, it was very much like, you know, um, 'cause you have all these pre-meets with the Buckingham-- with the palace, and then they talk to you about etiquette and, and how you, uh, um, you know, how you address the Queen and, and, and the correc- correct pronunciation and so on. And I was given a script, and it was very much, "Okay, this is what we want you to say." And I was like, "Oh, okay." So I read it, and I was like, "Oh, uh-huh. Oh, oh, uh, uh-huh. Okay. That's... Oh, that's really good. Oh, that's brilliant. Okay, fantastic. I'm not saying any of that."

    7. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:24:12

       [laughs]

    8. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:24:12

       Right. And they were like, "But you like it?" I said, "Yeah, it's great, but it's not me." Right. It's talking about projects we're doing in the community, and it's wonderful, but I didn't know anything about it. I said, "Well, look, this is what I would like to say." And I said, "Well, uh, you know, I want to, um, talk a little bit about, um, some of what we've talked about now and your origin stories. And, and, and I'd like to, um, to say thank you, uh, to, um, Your Royal Highness, you know, uh, Prince Charles, The Prince's Trust for the funding that he gave." 'Cause it was a complete pivot in my life. I mean, prior to then, I failed all my GCSEs. Um, the reason why John Novak, the teacher, called me out is because I started hanging out with the wrong guys, right? Because there was a piece around getting together in groups for safety, but then once you got these groups of guys, then you can actually start getting up to stuff that you shouldn't be, right? And he saw that. He saw that, and, and that was part of him, and he was just amazing for doing that. And, and I will, you know, forever be grateful. Um, but I couldn't afford to continue the, the sport. I just didn't have the money. And somebody else, a coach said, "Well, look, I, I heard that there's funding through The Prince's Trust." And I was like, "Really? Why would he give me money? He doesn't know anything about me or what I'm doing." And I said, "Oh, whatever." I didn't even fill out the form. Somebody did it on my behalf, and then I got this massive check, and then I got a boat, and I could actually paddle in a boat which didn't have holes in. And guess what? You go faster when it's not filling up with water. [laughs]

    9. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:25:42

       [laughs]

    10. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:25:42

        Yeah, you go faster. And then, you know, there's a massive pivot, my Chris. Anyway, digress. So I managed to then, uh, say, "Well, look, this is what I'm gonna say. I'm gonna talk about that. I wanna say thank you for that. And guess what? It's 2016, George Floyd was just mu- murdered. I wanna talk about that." And they were like, "Oh, you know, just be careful and, you know..." And I said, "Well, look, this is important, you know?" And they was like, "Well, yes, it's important for, uh, for the royal household also." Um, so, so I said, "This is what I want to say." We aligned on that. Um, and you know, they didn't want me to be doing like crazily controversial, but they, they, they, they did accept that, um, the Queen would be happy with acknowledging that 'cause that's something that's close to her heart also. And, um, and, and you remember we all sort of took turns to, to, to, to speak to, uh, the Queen, and I was number three. Um, and I was watching the first, you know, two, uh, before me is, um, uh, Bill and, and, and Jen. And, um, as they were talking, I was looking at the Queen, and it was clear that she wasn't quite comfortable with the technology. She was kind of sat there, and there's a computer and people talking, and she's doing this. And I was thinking, "I'm not sure. Does she know what's going on? Is she, is she all right? Is she all right? Is she cl- Because look, she's, you know, as, as much as she's a queen, she's still, she's an old lady, right? Is she okay?" So when it came to me, uh, and I was gonna start, the first thing I did was I leaned right into the screen and then I was like, "Hello, Your Majesty. Are you, are you okay? Are you okay?" And she goes, "Oh, um, y- yes, I'm okay. Tha- thank you. How are you?" "Well, I'm, I'm, I'm really good, and I was really looking forward to this." You know, so I thought, let's just have a conversation, and then we started to talk, and you'll remember. And as we started talking, and she sort of opened up a little bit, then she just disappeared. It's like, boom, she was gone. The line went down. And, and David, I know you know this, you remember this, that, uh, we were briefed that, "Look, listen, the palace says if there's a problem with, with the Wi-Fi or, or with the internet, do not move. Stay exactly where you are. We'll fix it. We'll get back, you back online." So I just stood there like this.

    11. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:27:50

        [laughs]

    12. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:27:51

        And then anyway, so I was waiting, waiting, and then she came back, and she was a bit like this, and she said, "Oh, there you are. You had gone." And I said, "No, Your Majesty, I've been waiting right here."

    13. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:28:01

        [laughs]

    14. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:28:01

        "You'd gone." And then she burst out laughing, and then we had a wonderful conversation, and I touched on all the points that referenced. And at the end, uh, uh, I, I said, "You know, please, you know, please do pass on my sincere gratitude to His Royal Highness Prince Charles for the support that he gave, which really changed my life, uh, um, you know, through The Prince's Trust." And she said, and I'll never forget this, "Yes, I shall tell my son."

    15. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:28:28

        [laughs]

    16. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:28:29

        That's what she said, and she did. And I had a, you know, follow-up, uh, conversation, and I ended up, uh, meeting, uh, um, you know, Pr- the then Prince Charles, now King Charles, uh, many times, um, through various different initiatives at St. James's Palace, Bu- Buckingham Palace, uh, other events. And, um, the dinner that you referred to was, um, I was asked to speak in a room, uh, I think it was about 250, uh, Prince's Trust ambassadors from all around the world. I was on the table with, uh, um, Gareth Southgate, um, former England football coach. I mean, I mean, the, the good and the, the, you know, and the great, they were all there. And, uh, yeah, my wife and I, we were asked to join the King for dinner. So, uh, it was, the King was there, and I was sat there, my wife was there, and we had a chat. And, and two things that really, um, you know, just impacted me. Firstly, it was shaking his hand, um, which may sound, like, odd. His hand was not smooth. His hand's rough. His hand was really... It's like, oh, uh, and I told you before, my dad's a builder, right? That was the hand of somebody who gets stuck in, and it just resonated. And then when I spoke to him, you know, he, he, his passion and his concern for the environment and gardening and so on, that's all raw and real. He gets stuck in. So just shaking his hand, I was like, wow, that's one thing that, that, that, that really cursed me. And then the second thing was just how down-to-earth he was. We just had a really, really nice chat, and we just chatted for hours. Um, uh, yeah, the bit at the end was a bit weird because he was like, "Oh, I'm a bit tired now. I need to go." And it's like, "Okay, well, you know, uh, great, great speaking to you, sir." And then he got up, and then everybody had to stand up in the room, and then you're like, oh yeah, oh, I remember he's royalty.

    17. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:30:25

        [laughs]

    18. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:30:25

        'Cause before that you forget, right? He's having a chat. Uh, but yeah, but that was great. And I, I'm... So I'm alumni, um, uh, for Pr- you know, for funding from the Prince's, now called The King's Trust. Uh, so whenever I can, uh, as an ambassador, uh, you know, I, um, I, I'm sorry. Okay, I'm not an official ambassador, but as somebody who's been a recipient of funding, I, I try to share that story, try to talk to others, encourage others, uh, whether it be formal events, informal events. And also one of the things I did at KPMG is that I sponsored a, a ton of, uh, projects that we did right across the whole of the UK, um, and also worked closely, uh, um, with the organization around the King around, you know, sustainability and other things like that. So it's been great. Uh, yeah, it's been great. And, uh, you know, hear- hearing from, uh, the King and the royal household every now and again is always a nice thing, uh, nice thing there.

    19. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:31:18

        You couldn't make it up.

    20. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:31:19

        You really couldn't make it up, you know, the A skinny kid from South London who was homeless and got into this bizarre sport that he was really bad at. You know, and a lot in, in, in, in the heart of You Couldn't Make It Up is, is really for me is, is a couple of things. Is, is, is, is, is a story of the extraordinary, but at the same time, I really encourage people to recognize the extraordinary in their own lives because it's there for all of us if we just look for it and we take the time, you know. Um, and, and I, and I don't say that in any way to, to belittle, you know, what struggles people might be going through. I mean, we talked about being homeless, talked about, you know, my sister dying, my brother dying, my mates dying, you know. Uh, um, you know, and that was first time I was homeless. The second time I, like, slept in my car, that was years later, uh, um, years down. So, so I, I'm not seeking to belittle that at all. But the whole piece around, um, leaning into the gratitude, leaning into the community, leaning into, you know, things like that, I, I, I, I, I feel that there's always, uh, um, there's, there's always the potential for a reframe. There's always the potential to recognize that just like my mum would always take people in, um, there's always the potential to say, "Well, look, how could I take somebody in?" And it could just be a conversation. Uh, I had a conversation, uh, we were talking about before, uh, a couple of days ago this week with, uh, an incredibly talented, uh, young lady who is sight impaired and, uh, uh, and she's, um... I'm not sure. I, I wanna say she's maybe in her la- her late 20s, early 30s. So she's a, she's a young lady, and she's going blind, and, and she will be totally blind at some point. And, and she's got a, a, an important job interview. I think it's today actually. And just taking the time to support her, um, you know, uh, which is, uh, um, you know, just the importance of doing things like that or, or one of the, the roles that I have now is I, I chair a group on behalf of the UK government and, um, represents about nineteen thousand companies, um, a scheme, uh, through ninety thousand companies, uh, in the UK which is all focused on, uh, disability inclusion, helping people with disabilities, uh, into the workplace, uh, to get in, uh, to be then retained, retention to stay in the workplace, and also progression, uh, to be, uh, fully representative across all levels in the workplace. And, you know, a- a- again, you know, doing things like that, and by the way, the, the, the origin from that was another phone call [chuckles] that I made that, uh, my youngest brother had a, um, an accident and, um, uh, and that was pretty serious. And it's like, "You need to get here soon because he's not gonna make it through the night." Uh, he, uh, w-was, uh, his back was broken, both his legs, arms, arms, his ribs. Um, he was in a motorcycle accident and, uh, and basically, you know, he's done. And then it's sort of the next day it's like, oh, well, somehow he's still around but he's probably not gonna make it the next day. And then, okay, well, he's still around and, and you know, just trying to understand what he was going through and his whole life just completely changed. I mean, the guy used to body build. I mean, he'd make me look like a broomstick now. He's huge, right? He was... [chuckles] And, and that's what kept him alive. I think he wrote off one or two cars. He got hit by one car which knocked him into a path of another car which knocked him into the path and then got hit again, wrote the car off. And you, you know, you see all situations like that, th- there's always a point that you could take a decision, you could be mindful on this, um, uh, around how can we do something that good can come from this. Um, when I subsequently, um, slightly different topic, uh, we, we talked about when I left Italy I was homesick but then I just got targeted by the police there. As I said, we were two Black guys there and, and, uh, um, harassed by the police. But, um, I had a, a reasonable degree of coverage because I worked for Benetton. When they knew that I worked for Benetton then they left me alone. But I kind of thought, I felt really awful about that. It's just like I shouldn't have to do that. I wasn't doing anything wrong. I was just there. And, um, shortly after I came back to UK, uh, I remember pulling an all-nighter doing some design work and, uh, well, I, I literally two nights, I worked day and night, two nights. I was wrecked and I thought, "I need to get out and get some fresh air." I'd just got paid. Um, back in the day, uh, I got a letter in the post and it had a check, you know, [chuckles] a paper check. So I walked out on the street to, to, um, uh, um, to walk to the bank to post it and as I said, just chuck a sweatshirt on. I had a beard, I hadn't shaved and I was looking a bit rough and whatever. And I got stopped by the police and I got handcuffed and, uh, because I fit the description and immediately I sat down, I leant against a wall as they said, "You stop." And I just sat down before they got close to me. So I just sat there, handcuffed me and this, and all this stuff. "Where are you going? Where are you coming from? What you doing?" And very calm, very, very calm. I just asked some questions. "So you know, so who, who is the person you're looking for?" "Oh, somebody who fits your description." "Okay. What does he look like?" And then he started to, to, um, uh, describe, police officer, somebody who looked like me. Uh, and, and I summarized at the end. I said, "Right, okay. So, so, so what you're doing-- You're looking for somebody who's, uh, about 15 years older than me who's clean shaven, um, because I've got a beard." And, and then I stood up and it was about, I don't know, it's like five eight or whatever. I'm six foot two, right? Um, uh, and, and I said, uh, "Do you think maybe that's not me?" So I said that, but you know. Anyway, I was a bit, I was, I was a bit sarky. The guy, uh, it escalated and, uh, he asked me where I lived. I told him and he was, "You, you, you know, you can't afford to live there." Right? And it was a house at the time I was fixing up and I said, "No, no, no." "I think you'll find you can't afford to live there." And when I said that, he actually went for me. He went to punch me, this police officer, and the other police officer held, held him back. Uh, uh, they released me. I hadn't done anything wrong. Um, anyway, I, I ran home, got home as quickly as possible, called up, um, the guy who I said was like a godfather to me. Remember I said he moved into the family home, and then his wife subsequently moved in. He was working for the Commission, uh, for Racial Equality at the time. I told him what happened, and I said, "This is... I wanna do something about it. I'm fed up," 'cause this was so many times things like this kept happening. He said, "Right. This is what you're gonna do. Wait by the phone. You're gonna get a phone call." Somebody else called me up and said, "This is what you're gonna do." Within about an hour or so, I was at the police station, the area police station, in the office with, I don't know, what, a chief of... the chief or whatever, the boss of that area, talking about that, and he apologized, and he apologized. And then he called the guy, the same police officer in, and you could see he looked at me and looked away, and then he looked again, because by that time I'd shaven, I'd put a suit and tie on, and I was really, you know, I was in fashion then. I had a nice suit, really, really, you know, this. And, and he went bright red, and he apolo- he had to apologize to me, and, um, he was put on, uh, additional training. Uh, and I went back, and I called, uh, the... my, you know, godfather and, and, and I said, "This happened, and this was great." And he, you know, he said to me, "So what?" And I s- "Well, no, but I got an a- apology, and this is good, right?" So sorry, it's the godfather and, and the, the other chap, his name was Mike, who helped me, and he said, "So what?" Um, and then it, I understood where they're coming from. It's like, so what are you gonna do about it? I, I had those connections. There's many people that didn't have it, and what, what came next was wonderful. I ended up volunteering, going back to police station, and I volunteered to be a lay visitor, which is an independent, I had to go through training, person who could then go into prison, uh, sorry, into, um, police stations, into their jail cells and, uh, um, speak with people, make sure that they had their rights read, make sure that they had all these things, and so on. And I did that for three years. So when you look at the situation with my brother and working with the government, with the, uh, business leadership group, disability confidence scheme, uh, with me being stopped, all of these things have potential for a reframe. All of these things have potential, uh, to drive positive impact and to do something for, um, uh, for the greater good. So, uh, I know, I, I think we may have gone over time [laughs] , but I just wanted to share that, uh, that story also.

    21. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:40:12

        John, when you're around, there's no such thing as overtime.

    22. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:40:15

        [laughs]

    23. DJDavid McIntosh Jr1:40:15

        That's for sure. Thank you for being so vulnerable, so open, so candid, and for sharing your origin story, but most importantly, thanks for playing such a big part in mine. You're not only a friend, you're a mentor and someone that I deeply look up to as an inspiration and, and being able to do this with you has just been incredible. JML, everyone.

    24. JMJohn McCalla-Leacy1:40:35

        No, thank you, and no, honestly, David, it goes both ways and, uh, you know, uh, you, you're a mentor for me also, just your, uh, your energy and, and also, uh, to be honest with you, I, I'm not sure that some of the things that you did when you did, when starting up this podcast, I'm not sure at, at your age that whether I would've had the capacity, whether I would [laughs] had the ability to do this. So I, I, no, I just, uh, hugely c- congratulate what you, what you do, and I'm, I'm a cheerleader for you, and, and I'm here for you, and if there's anything I could do, you know, you know my number. I'm always there. Looking forward to getting in the gym together at some point. We can, uh, we can work out together. But, um, yeah, no, so thank you for, for having me.

Episode duration: 1:41:18