197 - The science of obesity & how to improve nutritional epidemiology | David Allison, Ph.D

1. 0:00 – 0:10

   Intro

   1. PAPeter Attia0:00

      [upbeat music] Hey, everyone. Welcome to "The Drive" podcast. I'm your host, Peter Attia. [upbeat music] Hey, David.

2. 0:10 – 8:44

   David’s background, interest in obesity, and focus on evidence

   1. PAPeter Attia0:10

      Great to see you today.

   2. DADavid Allison0:12

      My pleasure as always, Peter. Good to see you.

   3. PAPeter Attia0:14

      It's been a while since we've seen each other in person. I feel like it's probably been, I don't know, three or four years, right?

   4. DADavid Allison0:21

      Easily. Easily. We've spent many an hour on Zoom together in the last couple of years, but it's been a while since we've been in the same state, in the same building, in the same room at the same time.

   5. PAPeter Attia0:31

      [laughs] Um, now you're no stranger to this podcast in the sense that I, I feel like you probably listen to podcasts before anybody. In fact, I think you and Nir Barzilai must hold the record for being the first people to listen to a podcast because, you know, they come out on Mondays, and it's barely the early part of the morning, and usually you and Nir are the first two to send me an email with your thoughts. So, um, I know you're a fan, and it's, it's an, it's great to have you on. I've been wanting to do this for some time.

   6. DADavid Allison1:03

      Well, thank you. I really a- admire the podcast, and I [laughs] admire Nir Barzilai, so to know I'm in league with him is, is pretty cool.

   7. PAPeter Attia1:09

      [laughs] So, um, y- you know, y- you're, you're one of the most interesting people I know, and I always love just spending time with you and talking with you about subjects. And, um, I, I think one of the things I, I've always admired about you is, um, y- you're, you're known for being in a field such as obesity, which tends to attract a lot of dogmatic thinking. Um, and yet you tend to approach this field with, uh, a, a distant, you know, sort of lack of emotion, right? You just come at it very sort of intellectually. And I, I guess I realize as I'm saying that it speaks disparagingly of people in the field of obesity, which is not really what I'm trying to say. But, um, I think for many people, the field of obesity is a loaded field, scientifically even, let alone sort of politically and all the other things that go with it. So I've always assumed that that's because your background is slightly different than maybe some of the people who came to obesity through physiology. So, so tell us a little bit about your background. What did you study? What did you do your PhD in? That sort of thing.

   8. DADavid Allison2:17

      Sure. You know, I, I sometimes will have people say, "You know, why, why are you like this?" Or, "Why did you do this? Why did you choose that?" And the truth is, even as a scientist, I often say, you know, following my, my friend Don Rubin, who, who I admire a lot, we may be able to figure out what the causal effect of X is, but we may not be able to effe- assess whether X caused Y. So I don't really know why I turned out the way I turned out. But even as a kid, I was always the kid asking questions. Sometimes that would interest people. Sometimes that would annoy people. Um, and that's true today. Um, but I was always one saying, "Are you sure? How do you know? Where did that come from? What makes you think that's true?" Uh, and then of course my kids fed it back to me as they were growing up and heard me say it. And when I would say to them, "Don't do that, you'll get hurt," they'd say, "What's your evidence for that, Dad?"

   9. PAPeter Attia3:02

      [laughs]

   10. DADavid Allison3:03

       So, you know, I went to college, and I started out knowing I wanted to be a psychologist, but what that meant to me at the time was Hitchcock films, right? I was gonna interpret people's dreams, and I would figure out what the meaning of the clock in the dream was or something like that, and then the person would be cured, and it would be a great movie. And then as I got to college, I started to think about, well, what's the evidence for these things? And that sort of opens up this whole can of worms about asking about evidence. Became more and more cognitive behaviorally oriented. Still thought I wanted to be a clinician. Got to graduate school, and I asked a professor at one point as we're being trained in graduate school, PhD program, to administer IQ tests. And we're learning these different theories of intelligence. Some people think there's one factor. Some people think three. One person thought 144. And I said, "Well, who's right?" And the professor says, "Well, they bring their different evidence to bear, and they argue." I said, "Well, what's the evidence?" He said, "These factor analyses." I don't really know what that is. What's a factor analysis? He goes, "Well, you have to go, go study multivariate statistics if you want to understand that." So I don't like to take anybody's word for anything, so I went and studied multivariate statistics and became more and more involved with statistical analysis to the point where eventually later in my career, people started thinking I was a statistician, and I stopped fighting it. I said, "Okay. The American Statistical Association thinks so, and the university thinks so, and the NIH and NSF think so. I think so too." And so that's great. So I sort of became by evolution a statistician, having been trained as a psychologist. But I think all of that comes down to evidence and all of it thinking that people are no different than anything else. Body fat is no different than any other variable in that it still has to obey the same laws of probability and physics and mathematics and so on that we apply to anything else. And I think we, we often forget that. You know, people talk, and so folks who study people think about the words that people say, whereas if you're studying atoms and molecules, you don't think about the words they say. You just apply scientific methods. Um, the same person who would never question a diabetologist on what the beta cell of a pancreas is doing, unless they themselves are a diabetologist studying the beta cells of the pancreas, will say to an obesity researcher, "Well, this is how obesity works, and it's this aspect of food or that aspect of culture or that aspect of child-rearing," based only on the fact that they were children or had children and had some experience. And so to me, it's just ste- taking a step back and just treating, as my old boss in biostatistics used to say, whether it's Xs and Ys, they're just variables, and you're applying the same laws of thinking to all those systems.

   11. PAPeter Attia5:50

       So when was it either post PhD or during PhD that you were drawn to, uh, obesity in particular as a, as a clinical field?

   12. DADavid Allison6:01

       You know, I actually started as an undergraduate, and so, uh, it was, it was a, I think it was a sophomore, and I took a class at Vassar College. And I should say that all my remarks today just reflect my own opinions. I'm not speaking for Indiana University or Vassar College or anybody else, just myself. And I took a class at Vassar College on human emotion and motivation, and we studied the theories of Stanley Schachter, who at the time was a professor of psychology at Columbia University. He's since deceased. An amazing, brilliant man who wrote a book called Emotion, Obesity, and Crime, and he talked about the connections among these and how the distinction between our cognitive state and our physiologic arousal state might lead us to certain kinds of behaviors, including for, in the case of some people, eating more calories than they might otherwise eat. And his experiments were so creative. I just loved it. And he would put, like, a clock on the wall, and he would have the clock move a little faster that, but not perceptibly faster. And then he would bring some students in and give them some work to do under some ruse. And then the clock would say for some of the students at 11:00 AM that it was noon. And he'd say, "By the way, I have a big, a big tray of roast beef sandwiches out here. So, you know, whenever you're hungry for lunch, just let me know and you can have some sandwiches." And then for some people, the clock wouldn't say it was noon until 1:00 PM, and for some people it'd say it was noon at noon. And he'd say, "Who would be following the clock, and who would be following the actual time?" And obese or overweight persons were more likely to follow the clock, and this became the external theory. And then it didn't always work out, and then he'd have another experiment and say, "Well, it only holds up under this circumstance." And it was incredibly creative how he'd keep looping through, and so I just got hooked on it. And then we had lo- to write lots and lots of papers at Vassar College. I got a great education in writing and thinking there. Not so many tests, lots of papers. And so when I would take physiologic psychology, I would write about the physiologic psychology of obesity. And when I took behavioral psychology, I wrote behavioral on obesity. When I took developmental, I'd write about developmental aspects of obesity. And I loved the fact that you not only could, but in my opinion, had to look at obesity from so many of those different angles, that no one thing was gonna do it. You know, everybody's got their pet thing. This, this nutrient is toxic. It's this food marketing practice. It's this cultural practice. It's exercise. It's not exercise. I, I think there are many factors involved, and I enjoyed studying it, and still do, from many angles.

   13. PAPeter Attia8:38

       Now, this is happening in the late '80s, correct? When you're in school-

   14. DADavid Allison8:42

       Right

   15. PAPeter Attia8:43

       ... finishing your PhD.

   16. DADavid Allison8:43

       Mid to

3. 8:44 – 17:11

   The moment when the obesity crisis was recognized, and the sloppy science that ensued

   1. DADavid Allison8:44

      late '80s, right.

   2. PAPeter Attia8:44

      And, um, at the time, what was the, um, both political and medical view of obesity? Was it the... I, I don't think it was the same issue it was today, was it? W- obesity rates weren't particularly high in the '80s, or were they? I don't, I don't, I don't really recall.

   3. DADavid Allison9:01

      They weren't as high as they are now. [lip smacks] And there was... There had been steady increases. If you go back and look at data from at least the 1700s forward, there have been relatively steady increases in obesity rates in Westernized, uh, industrialized countries since then. But there seemed to be this wake-up moment in the late nine- in the early '90s with the NHANES III. And so at that point, we didn't have the NHANES, which is the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey, which annually does today a survey of a representative sample of Americans with measured heights and weights. That's how we track obesity levels. At that point, it was only done every few years, and so there was this big gap in years between NHANES II and NHANES III. So NHANES II had happened, I think, in the early '80s, uh, or mid '80s. And obesity rates were climbing, but not dramatically. And so obesity was an issue, but it wasn't on top of everybody's mind, especially for kids. Pharmaceuticals were still seen as the realm of charlatans at that point. If you were a doc and you proposed, uh, uh, promoted the use of obesity medications, you were called a diet doc, and that was, like, a very bad stigma. [lip smacks] Um, there weren't many good medications available. Surgery was still looked at as a very peculiar thing for very extreme cases, and even many medical professionals disdained it. Um, and then something happened in the very early 1990s, which is the NHANES data- NHANES III data came out. And what you saw was this big jump in obesity levels, and that got everybody's attention. And words like epidemic started to be used, especially around childhood. And the public health policy and environmental perspective came in, and things started to shift in the mid '90s, and that was when you had people like Kelly Brownell, probably one of the most forceful voices at the time, who was a sort of old school University of Pennsylvania colleague of Tom Wadden, devotee or student of Mickey Stunkard, of this, of the cognitive behavioral individual clinical treatment approach to obesity, suddenly starting to say, "Maybe we've got it wrong. Maybe it's this environment." And I don't know if Kelly coined the term toxic environment, but he certainly, he either coined it or popularized it. And people started to think about prevention in children and the overall environment, the political, economic, social, uh, food marketing environment we lived in. And it all started to take off. And ideas from the cigarette world, the same public health people who had been battling cigarette companies and tobacco for decades Many of they and their tools came in and said, "We know how to deal with things that are environmental, social, political problems," and it began to be seen as an environmental, social, political problem. And in some way, a lot was gained 'cause we got a lot more funding for it. We had a lot more attention, a lot more efforts, a lot more research. But in some ways, it was lost. In the early '90s, when I kind of grew up in the field, I grew up in the first federally funded obesity research center, which is the New York Obesity Research Center, for a long time, the only one. And by gosh, if, if as a young post-doc I were to say something that didn't quite jibe with physiology or genetics or anatomy or clinical medicine, there was a physiologist and a geneticist and an anatomist and a medical doctor who would say, "Uh-uh." And they knew all. They knew each other. They knew the arguments. They knew the literature for the last 20 years. Then the public health people came in fresh without kind of knowing so much. So on the one hand, it launched things up a lot, which was great, but on the other hand, back to what you were saying earlier about the dilution of the, of the rigor of the field intellectually, it became a lot more of opinion, a lot more of, uh, advocacy in the absence of rigorous evidence showing what worked. They're just saying, "This seems like it oughta work."

   4. PAPeter Attia13:24

      So David, prior to NHANES III, um, and prior to Kelly and others saying, "Hey, we should look for something else," what was believed to be the, uh, environmental or otherwise trigger for obesity? In other words, what was-

   5. DADavid Allison13:41

      I don't know-

   6. PAPeter Attia13:41

      ... viewed as the cause?

   7. DADavid Allison13:44

      Yeah. I don't know that there was a single cause. I mean, clearly, um, what some people today call the energy balance model, which we can go back to and, and ask whether that really is even a model in some realistic sense, um, I think was then and still is today by most people in the field accepted as valid, but maybe not as a model, maybe as a description of what occurs.

   8. PAPeter Attia14:08

      Yeah, I was gonna say that's sort of a tautology and doesn't really tell us anything. It's [laughs] it's implied and obvious and not explanatory.

   9. DADavid Allison14:17

      Right. I think, I think not explanatory is maybe the best way of describing it in, in some sense. Uh, the analogy I would use to that is I think the energy balance statement, I won't say model, I'll say the energy balance statement is, as long as you accept the laws of thermodynamics, unequivocally correct. In the same sense as if you accept Euclidean geometry, the statements about the relationship between the legs and the hypotenuse of a triangle are unequivocally correct. But if I say to you, "I have a triangle of this size with l- legs of length A and B," and I proportionately imagine another triangle that has legs greater than length A and B, it doesn't cause the hypotenuse to be bigger. It means the hypotenuse is bigger. And if I say I imagine one with a bigger hypotenuse, it doesn't cause the legs to be bigger. It means the legs are bigger, and any question about whether the legs cause the hypotenuse or the hypotenuse cause the legs is nonsense. They don't cause each other. They're inherent in the definition of triangle, just as inherent in the definition of energy, uh, is the law of conservation, and it just says delta energy stores minus th- equals delta energy in minus delta energy out. It's just a statement. Um-

   10. PAPeter Attia15:37

       So, so was the-

   11. DADavid Allison15:38

       So I think that was-

   12. PAPeter Attia15:38

       ... belief, though-

   13. DADavid Allison15:39

       Yeah

   14. PAPeter Attia15:39

       ... that this was behavioral, uh, prior to NHANES III, was the belief that, well, if a person is overweight or obese, they are... They're just eating more than they're expending because of a choice?

   15. DADavid Allison15:53

       I think there was... It's almost hard to answer that because I think the thinking was and still remains so sloppy that people don't even distinguish among things well. I was just invited to a panel literally today that I'm going to be on in a few months where somebody said, "We're gonna contrast, um, for obesity the relative influence of biology versus behavior," as though we could behave without biology.

   16. PAPeter Attia16:22

       [laughs]

   17. DADavid Allison16:22

       I mean, uh, I don't know about you, but I'm not a disembodied soul. And if you're a disembodied soul, maybe.

   18. PAPeter Attia16:28

       [laughs]

   19. DADavid Allison16:28

       But for the rest of us who, you know, are in the material world-

   20. PAPeter Attia16:31

       [laughs]

   21. DADavid Allison16:32

       ... you behave with a body, and it, it's gotta obey the same laws of physics and so on that any other body has to behave. So I think there's a lot of sloppy thinking. Um, but I think if you really drill down and you got the smart people who understood, they would say, "Of course there's a genetic component." Any rancher could have told you 100 or more years ago that there's a genetic comp- We can selectively breed animals for being thinner or fatter. That shows you there's a genetic component. There are many other things that show you that, but that's probably the strongest prima facie evidence. You can selectively breed animals to be fatter or leaner. It's prima facie evidence.

4. 17:11 – 20:36

   What twins studies tell us about the genetics of obesity

   1. PAPeter Attia17:11

      What, by the way, is the concordance of identical twins separated at birth? I've always found that to be one of the most interesting ways to assess everything from, you know, autism to schizophrenia. Like, it's really a, a beautiful natural experiment. W- but I don't know what the concordance is with respect to obesity in identical twins separated. Do you?

   2. DADavid Allison17:30

      Yeah. There are a lot of different ways to, to, um, quantify that, and we've written a couple of papers on it. But I think the easiest way is just the, the Pearson product moment correlation coefficient, the ordinary correlation coefficient of BMI twin to twin. And it turns out that for monozygotic or identical twins separated at or near, uh, after birth, they, uh... it's nearly the same magnitude as it is for twins reared together, which is about .9-ish.

   3. PAPeter Attia18:02

      Wow.

   4. DADavid Allison18:02

      To that round. Varies, varies from study to study. So it's very similar. And so it's probably... Now, of course, you can argue, "Well, that also takes into account the in utero-"

   5. PAPeter Attia18:10

      Could it take into account in utero-

   6. DADavid Allison18:12

      "... environment."

   7. PAPeter Attia18:12

      Yep, yep.

   8. DADavid Allison18:13

      Exactly. Maybe some epigenetic, uh, things. But bottom line is whatever those things are, they're not, um, they're not just the child rearing of the home. It looks like for many traits, including obesity, the child rearing of the home does have an influence, but it's not a huge influence.

   9. PAPeter Attia18:32

      That's an incredible degree of concordance.

   10. DADavid Allison18:35

       It sure is.

   11. PAPeter Attia18:37

       When was that realized? When were those studies first done?

   12. DADavid Allison18:40

       Well, it's interesting because you can go back to quite some period of time to find the hints of those studies. And often when you look at science, it's often that we, at some level, we kind of knew something. The information was sort of there, but there was this moment where a key figure had to come in and both see it and say it with a degree of crispness that wasn't there before. As I said, so lots of people could have seen the ranching data and the mouse data and family data. In 1923, Davenport, who, you know, he's kind of a looked at now probably as a racist, you know, from the past. But at the time, Davenport published under the Carnegie Foundation these, these studies of concordance of families. And you could have seen the genetic component in his 1923 data. But it was Albert J. Mickey Stunkard, who was someone I had the great privilege of knowing and a wonderful, wonderful man. Um, and Mickey did the first major high-quality twin and adoption studies, and he did what he was great at. He got on a plane, and he went all around the world, and he met bright, young, interesting people, and he said, "You have resources, and you have ideas, and you have data, and you're smart. Can I work with you? Can we work on this together?" And he got Torkild Sorensen and other people to start working on twins studies with the great Nordic data, Sweden, Denmark, and so on, and adoption studies. And it was the twin and adoption studies coming out of Sweden and Denmark that I think really nailed it, that finally in New England Journal of Medicine with Mickey Stunkard behind it with clear writing, with high-quality data, people said, "We got it. There's a big genetic component."

   13. PAPeter Attia20:28

       And this was approximately what year, David?

   14. DADavid Allison20:30

       This would have been, uh, '83-ish plus or minus a couple.

5. 20:36 – 28:45

   How doctors and scientists have historically approached obesity treatment

   1. PAPeter Attia20:36

      So again, trying to bring this back to kind of the clinical side of things. So if by the early '80s it's or it should be patently clear that genetics are playing an important role, it would be at least a decade before people would say, "Well, pharmacologic therapy might make sense here." Just as, for example, if somebody is genetically more likely to have hypothyroidism, right, a very relatively straightforward endocrinology, uh, or endocrine system to understand, we wouldn't really think twice about replacing or, uh, you know, abuating a thyroid hormone as, as necessary. So where was that disconnect where it's the early '80s and we realize there's a very strong genetic component to this, we probably have some medical tools that we could use, but it still seems like that wasn't being done. So what, what was being done? Were, was it just a case of counseling people to eat less and exercise more?

   2. DADavid Allison21:42

      It was mostly developing the tools that would help people reduce energy intake. And I think today, that's still most of what we do. So even surgery and drugs mostly, but not only, help people reduce energy intake. Um, we know that reducing energy intake works. It's just really hard to do. And telling people to do it and saying, "I'll try to do it," is not all that effective. And so all these things were tools, and we used the tools of behavior therapy starting in, I would say, really the '60s is probably where the, the formal behavioral stuff really kicked in with, I think it was Stewart, um, and, and the behavioral thinking about obesity. And then it continued to get better and better all the way through present and still continues to get better and better. But my sense is that, you know, we, we've been asymptoting for a long time. That is, we're getting incrementally better, not meaningfully better with many of the behavioral cognitive things. What happened then in the early '90s is, and I remember 'cause I was a post-doc at the New York Obesity Research Center at the time, is a few people started to really kick in with, uh, pharmaceuticals, and they started to come out of this idea that you're a diet doc and it's a bad thing. And fen-phen, which now we know was dangerous and is gone, at least one of the fens in fen-phen, um, that came up, and that caught people's attention.

   3. PAPeter Attia23:13

      Tell folks a little bit about fen-phen. Uh, many people listening probably won't be familiar with what it is, how it worked, and what the unfortunate consequence was in a small but non-trivial subset of people.

   4. DADavid Allison23:24

      So fen-phen was, is an, a nickname for two drugs used in combination, phentermine and fenfluramine. Phentermine is a drug that was and still is approved by the FDA for the treatment of obesity, though it's never been approved for long term. So goes back a long way. It's, it's a catecholaminergic agonist. It's a relatively safe drug, though not a, no drug is perfectly safe. Um, and it's modestly effective. Fenfluramine is a selective serotonergic reuptake inhibitor, which I think originally was used for depression and people realized sometimes those drugs, those SSRIs cause weight loss. Somebody realized you could put those two together and seem to get better results. So that became a big craze, and there were many unscrupulous medical providers who did provide that in ways they shouldn't have. But there were many scrupulous medical providers who used it carefully and thoughtfully, and it did seem to have much better benefit than other people had predicted before that. And so suddenly, pharmaceutical treatment was no longer the realm of drive-through pill mills and charlatans and diet docs and rainbow pills and so on. It, it was starting to be credible. You had people like George Bray, who's still around today and working on obesity, jumping on board and, and starting to really think through all the, the cornucopia of pharmaceuticals we knew about and which ones might be useful, and others weighing in. And then a very smart young person, whose name I no longer recall, but who, uh, was a pathologist, not an obesity researcher as far as I know, at the Mayo Clinic, started noticing some people coming through as cadavers. And she was being asked to do autopsies and did autopsies and started noticing a peculiar valvulopathy that she didn't see very often. And she started to see a little run of cases, and then noticed that all of these cases had been on fen-phen, and reported it, and then many, many other people started to investigate it. And very quickly people realized, in fact, this did produce a certain valvulopathy. And further investigation made it clear it was the fenfluramine component, not the phentermine component that did that. So the fenfluramine was withdrawn. Phentermine is still used today. But I think what was terrible, of course, is that one of the many drugs in the history of obesity that hurt people. But what was good about it is that it really started getting people thinking more about obesity as a serious medical disorder that merited serious attention from credible physicians and credible scientists working at the molecular, pharmaceutical, and, uh, physiologic level.

   5. PAPeter Attia26:28

      And how much of fen-phen's mechanism was understood? I mean, I mean, obviously at the superficial level it was, but in terms of its direct action, was the belief that, um, one component was simply increasing energy expenditure while the other was reducing appetite?

   6. DADavid Allison26:44

      I don't think it was quite that simple, and I, I don't think with any of these things we ever fully know the components. Um, this is where you know far more than I, but I mean, even in the case of statins, which we think so highly of and use so well, you know, whether they really have their beneficial effects by reducing LDL cholesterol, which was sort of the initial thought, or through other mechanisms, I think is even being debated now. Um, I think we, we suspected and still would believe that they reduced appetite and therefore helped people control their food intake better, that the two things did it through slightly different, uh, mechanisms, one being more serotonergic, one being more adrenergic. They may have also had effects on energy expenditure, albeit probably modest ones, and that was probably more the phentermine than the fenfluramine.

   7. PAPeter Attia27:30

      Mm-hmm.

   8. DADavid Allison27:31

      In terms of the mechanism for the valvulopathy, I'll have to leave that to you. That's, that's out of my realm.

   9. PAPeter Attia27:36

      And when was fen-phen pulled? Was that the mid to late '90s?

   10. DADavid Allison27:40

       I think it was the late '90s, but I don't remember the exact date. Probably '97-ish, somewhere around there.

   11. PAPeter Attia27:47

       What about, uh, gastric bypass and other surgical approaches? Now we have sleeves, uh, Roux-en-Y, all sorts of different approaches to it, but, um, when did that sort of go from being presumably incredibly fringe to, you know, quite frankly, where we are today, where this is something that will be covered by an insurance company if the BMI is high enough?

   12. DADavid Allison28:11

       I don't know that there was a single moment, but I, I-- So I think there's been a sort of a relatively steady march, but I do think there was one key step that was kind of a step function in the credibility of it, and that was the Swedish Obese Subject study, um, as from, uh, Lars Sjöström in Sweden. And surgery had been around for a while. Um, interestingly, even among physicians and scientists, it was very controversial and still is. Some people think it's barbaric. Some people think it's abhorrent.

6. 28:45 – 34:08

   Do surgical procedures for obesity prolong life?

   1. DADavid Allison28:45

      Again, I think you just have to take the data as it is. Say, you could, you might say, "Wouldn't it be better if we had a world where no one needed surgery, where our solution to obesity was not let children start to gain weight and then when they become massively obese adults, give them surgery and rearrange their internal anatomy?" You say, "Yeah, it probably would be better," but that's not the world we live in. We live in this world, and in this world, that's the most effective life-saving, life-changing treatment we have, and it's a good one. And so what happened is many physicians would battle among each other. I remember John Krall, who's since passed on, a very good surgeon, um, one of, uh, another physician colleague chastising him over dinner at a conference and saying, "When you're done with a patient, Dr. Krall, they will never eat normally again." And he said, "No. When I'm done, they will never eat abnormally again." So there were these real vitriolic battles. I think what happened is the surgeries, of course, got better and better and better. As everything else, people learned how to do things better. Mortality rates went way down. Efficacy went up. But what Lars Sjöström did is he said, "I want to look at whether this prolongs life." And I remember him telling me many decades ago that his senior mentor, Per Björntorp, who was known for fat cell theories and, and the, the apple versus pear idea, right? It was originally Jean Vague was apple versus pear from the, from France in the 1950s, but then in the '80s, really '70s and '80s, Björntorp was one of the big people who picked it up. Björntorp laughed at his mentoree. He says, "Lars, everybody knows this. Everybody knows that surgery will cause weight loss and help people live longer. There's no point in doing this study." And Lars said, "You may be right that it does, but we have to do this study because everybody doesn't accept and believe that and it hasn't been shown." And we, I think we know over and over again, you've got to do the experiment. As John Hunter famously said to Edward Jenner, when Jenner says, "I think," and he's thinking about the first vaccine, and Hunter comes back and says, "Why think? Do the experiment."

   2. PAPeter Attia30:55

      [clears throat]

   3. DADavid Allison30:56

      You've got to do the experiment and show it. So Sjostrom didn't do a pure experiment. It's not a randomized trial, but it's a controlled trial, and the, the IRB at the time didn't think it was ethical to randomly assign people to either surgery or not. So if they're willing to get surgery, he would find a closely matched control and give them usual care. And then what he showed well more than a decade later in The New England Journal of Medicine is that the surgery reduced mortality rate, it reduced obesity, um, very powerful effects. Um, clearly a life-saving and a beneficially life-changing treatment. I think that was probably the big jump. And then since then, many other trials, some randomized, have been done showing positive benefits on many things, including longevity.

   4. PAPeter Attia31:45

      Do you recall what the, uh, risk reduction was in all-cause mortality in that study?

   5. DADavid Allison31:51

      I don't recall in that study per se, but when you look across studies, it varies quite a bit from study to study. There's a lot of heterogeneity. But it's, it's usually well on the order of a 50% reduction, sometimes a little bit more.

   6. PAPeter Attia32:05

      And maybe getting too in the weeds on this, but does that-- how does that change when you do and do not correct for the presence of type 2 diabetes at the outset? In other words, it, I, I would imagine that that's a combination of people who had and did not have type 2 diabetes, and do you have a sense of what the differences are amongst those, those two cohorts?

   7. DADavid Allison32:28

      Your, your premise is correct that it is a- among people who do and don't have type 2 diabetes. But no, I don't know off the top of my head. I share your intuition that it's probably stronger among people who do. And we, we need to also look at, um, many different factors. So for example, in the Swedish obese subject study, and I'm not sure this would hold up in all, one of the things that was very puzzling and surprising, at least to me, was that although diabetes really came down and stayed down very well, uh, even if weight came back up a little, which it did on average, uh, hypertension came down very well but did not stay down very well. It would come back up. And why that is, is it damage to the endothelial elasticity that's not really repairable, and so you just get a short-term effect of negative energy balance that's not sustained? I don't know. But it, it, it goes back to that John Hunter thing. You've got to do the experiment. And so we, we can't make a priori assumptions about the effects of treatments. We've got to do the experiment and look at the effects of treatment.

   8. PAPeter Attia33:31

      It's interesting that hypertension would return and yet mortality would still improve, which suggests that perhaps the benefits of improved insulin sensitivity, which do persevere, play a greater role in mortality than body weight, which does not surprise me, but also hypertension, which is somewhat surprising given how causally, uh, related hydro- hypertension is atherosclerosis.

   9. DADavid Allison33:58

      Well, it may not be a greater role as much as an additional role, right? So it could be that if you got the hypertension down, you'd get an even bigger reduction.

7. 34:08 – 41:48

   The ‘Obesity Paradox’

   1. PAPeter Attia34:08

      So when did this idea of kind of an obesity paradox, which I know you've written about, um, when did that start to become observed?

   2. DADavid Allison34:20

      I think the, the, that phrase obesity paradox has never been really crisply defined, and whether it really is something that's a paradox is not clear. People use it to mean at least two different things. Um, one thing is that, uh, there's this so-called U-shaped curve, more accurately concave upward, and it's a bathtub-shaped curve if you imagine a, a Cartesian or XY plot in which the Y or ordinate is mortality rate or some function of it, and the X is BMI or relative body weight or something. So one is that it is U-shaped, that it's not monotonic increasing. And so people at the very thin end also die earlier than people in the middle, just as people at the very heavy end die earlier than people in the middle. You know, the Duchess of Windsor has supposedly said, "You can never be too rich or too thin."

   3. PAPeter Attia35:14

      [chuckles]

   4. DADavid Allison35:14

      And she may have been right on the rich part, I don't know, haven't gotten there yet, but apparently not on the too thin part. Now, we can argue whether it's causal, and there are lots of arguments about whether it's causal. But that's one thing. It's the idea that thinner people than sort of intermediate levels of BMI also die earlier. That's one part. The other part is that even though obesity is associated with increased mortality rate or decreased longevity, that when you look at people who are sick or injured, they often live the longest. So if somebody comes in with kidney failure or someone comes in after a major injury or a major infection, they're in the hospital, it's often the heaviest people that live longer. And that started to be talked about 10, 15 years ago maybe. Um, it's very difficult to disentangle cause and effect. We can observe lots of associations, but it's just hard to know what to make of all of these associations and what's causal. There are so m-- as the philosophers say, the data are u- or the hypotheses are underdetermined by the data. There are multiple hypotheses that are consistent with the data. That's why the randomized experiment allows us to do things that otherwise we can't do. It sort of eliminates more competing hypotheses. So I don't think we know what's causal yet. We've thrown out a model, uh- A man named Doug Childers and I, who was a postdoc, was a good mathematician working with me, in which we said, what if obesity makes it more likely that you get a major illness or injury? So it's not good for your health in that sense. Age, of course, also makes it more likely that you get a major illness or injury. But once you get a major illness or injury, being heavier, more obese, may reduce your risk of dying from it. And an analogy I use is this. Suppose you and I are sort of going for a hike on the edge of the Grand Canyon, and we go to some outfitter who's setting us up. And he says, you know, to you, who's a, you're about 10 years younger than me, I think. And he says to you, you have a choice. I can give you this fat suit you can wear. It has lots of padding on it. If you fall off the cliff, it makes it much more likely you'll survive. But it makes you a little clumsy, so it makes you more likely to fall off the cliff. You might say, I've got good balance and good eyesight, and I'm young and strong and no. Comes to me and I say, I'm not quite as young and strong, maybe. I don't know. Comes to somebody 10 years older than me, that person says, I'm really struggling with my eyesight or balance or strength. I'll take the fat suit, right? And so whether the fat suit is good for you may depend upon your probability of falling to begin with. And under that mathematical model, we can show, in fact, that the point of BMI, the nadir of that bathtub-shaped concave upward curve, should keep moving to the right as you age, which is exactly what it does. So we can, we have a model that's consistent with the data, but the data don't prove our model. There are other models that would be consistent with it.

   5. PAPeter Attia38:26

      Let's give people an idea of what those numbers look like. So just for someone listening to this, maybe not even watching, it can be hard to imagine what we're talking about, right? But a U-shaped curve that at its nadir is giving you the optimal BMI. This would be the lowest mortality. And what you're saying is rather than just plot one of these curves for everybody, let's plot them by decade. So what does the U-shaped curve look like for people in their 20s, in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, up to their 90s? And what you're saying is if your hypothesis is correct, one place you would expect to see that is that these curves would not only not look the same by decade, but they would move rightward, meaning the nadir is getting to a heavier and heavier BMI. Can you give me a sense of how much movement there is by decade?

   6. DADavid Allison39:17

      Yeah. In fact, I'm going to smooth over things. So the story I'm about to tell you is not perfectly true, but it's sort of a roughly true and it sort of conveys the sort of nice element of this. The average American might gain about a pound a year. For an average height American, about six or so pounds might be a BMI unit, right? If you gained about six pounds, you might gain about a BMI unit. And so that might mean that over six years, you'd be about one BMI unit heavier. And that's not too far off from how the nadir moves. It's almost as though your weight is increasing to keep you on at the nadir, which is an interesting speculation. And if you looked at people who are maybe 20 years old, that nadir might not be too far from 20 in some populations. An astute reader of the epidemiologic literature who's listening now might appropriately be saying, hey, wait a minute now. Allison needs to make distinctions by age, race, and sex. He's doing age. He's not doing race and sex and other factors. And they'd be right. We can come back to that if you wish. But putting that aside for the moment, very loosely speaking, you might say that nadir might be far down near 20 when you're 20. And by the time you're 80, it's not to 80. But by the time you're 80, it might be well above 30. Might be in the low 30s where that nadir is, which is we generally say 30 is the beginning of obesity. And for those who are not used to BMIs, I used to sort of lay it out like this. The supermodel Kate Moss, at least from a few decades ago when she was the top model, had a BMI I think in 16 to 17 range. We say that about 18.5 is sort of the beginning of normal weight. We think less than that is underweight. My BMI right now is probably 21-ish. Bill Clinton's, you know, at the height of his presidency, since lost weight, was probably 27, 28. We say 30 is where obesity begins. And a secretary sumo wrestler, top class sumo wrestler, about 43, 44. So that gives you a sense of what those BMIs are. And so it's really 30, 32, where you see people 70, 80 and above having that lowest

8. 41:48 – 49:54

   Interpreting BMI and mortality data and considering confounders

   1. DADavid Allison41:48

      mortality rate.

   2. PAPeter Attia41:50

      Is there a risk that we're looking at confounders here? I don't know if this would be a confounder. It wouldn't seem like it would be a confounder in this year, meaning in this time and place we're in. But would it be a confounder for affluence, for example, as it may have been hundreds of years ago? You know, other things like that. And the other thing about BMI is, you know, when you look at other data that look at body composition, do we see the same thing hold up? So you can have a BMI of 30 and not, even though you're obese by BMI, no one would look at you and say you're obese. You might have a body fat of 15%, which is pretty low, and be, you know, incredibly muscular, for example. So How, how do we reconcile, one, the potential confounders of that type of an analysis with sort of this other inf- this, this other next layer of granularity in the data that look at adiposity versus lean mass?

   3. DADavid Allison43:02

      Let's start with the confounding question, then let's get to the body composition question. The confounding question is a nightmare. This is the challenge of observational research in general, and there's no simple solutions to it other than, in my opinion, trying to triangulate on the answer with multiple studies. Right? What we really want is the pure randomized experiment in humans, in large samples with perfect compliance for many years, and we want to randomly assign people to be obese or not obese. Obviously, we can't do that. So what do we do? Well, we look at observational epidemiology. We look at randomized trials where we have people lose weight. We look at non-randomized trials like Sjostrom's with surgery. We look at mouse studies. You know, we look at all these different things, and we try to just put the puzzle together as best we can. But there's absolutely a lot of possibility for confounding. Cigarette smoking was one of the early ones. Very famous paper by JoAnn Manson and colleagues published in New England Journal, uh, excuse me, in JAMA, um, pointing out that the, quote, "right way," according to them, to analyze BMI and mortality data was you must exclude ever smokers. You only look at never smokers. Otherwise, you may have confounding by smoking. Smoking makes you thinner. Smoking kills you earlier. Gotta take care of that. You've gotta throw out the subjects who die early because subjects who die early may have been sick. Sickness makes you thinner. Sickness makes you die earlier. That is a confounder. We've since proved mathematically that that's not a good thing to do. Um, but for a long time it was believed.

   4. PAPeter Attia44:34

      Is that even true, David, on the low end? Because that does strike me as one of the most obvious explanations for the uptick in mortality at very low BMIs is all of the, you know, the liver disease, the kidney disease, the types of chronic diseases that actually do lead to muscle wasting and things like that. Are you also including them in your analysis?

   5. DADavid Allison44:57

      So yes, we are. What we, what we showed is not that that confounding doesn't occur. That confounding absolutely can occur, or, or we, we agree that it can occur. It's-- we speculate. We think it's likely. What we've shown is that throwing out subjects who die early in the analysis doesn't help-

   6. PAPeter Attia45:15

      I see

   7. DADavid Allison45:15

      ... or doesn't reliably help. It was very interesting, back to sort of the discussion of, you know, the field. When I s- when I f- went to analyze my first BMI mortality data set, I had no training in this. So I get a data set, and I'm about to try it, and I don't know what I'm doing. So I call up my friends, and I say, "I read this paper in JAMA, and it says you have to eliminate the early deaths, but I'm-- how do I do that? Do I-- h- how do I pick how many years to do? You know, exactly how does this work?" And it was interesting because when I would call the epidemiologists and I would say, "How does this work?" And then I'd say, "By the way, is there a reference that explains and proves that this works?" They'd say, "No, it's obvious that it works." I said, "Well, it's just, it's not obvious to me." And they said, "Well, maybe you're not smart enough to be an epidemiologist." I said, "Oh, okay." You know?

   8. PAPeter Attia46:02

      Those words were actually uttered?

   9. DADavid Allison46:04

      Uh, jokingly.

   10. PAPeter Attia46:05

       Hmm.

   11. DADavid Allison46:05

       But yeah. Then, then I would call my friends who are statisticians, and I would say, "You know, there's this paper, and it says you have to eliminate the early deaths." And they would laugh at me like, "What? That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. We don't just throw out data and think it makes things better. You've gotta have a model that, that, you know, you fit things to." So we then got a small grant from the CDC, and we looked at mathematical proofs, computer simulations, and meta-analyses. And the, the mathematical proofs showed it not only didn't have to help reduce the confounding, it could make it worse. Simulations showed the same thing in realistic data scenarios. And then the, uh, meta-analyses showed that on average, didn't make much difference at all. So throwing out the subjects who die early basically just reduces your power, uh, in most practical situations. Um, then they would say, uh, you've gotta not control for the intermediary variables like the diabetes and the hypertension. That's probably true. We-- I think I would agree with that. Um, later in subsequent paper in 1995 in New England Journal of Medicine, that same group said, "You've gotta throw out the subjects who have more weight variability," right? All the things they said in 1987 weren't enough to flatten out that left end of the U-shaped curve. So they said, "Throw out the subjects who die," who-- excuse me, "who have a lot of weight fluctuation." And that didn't completely get rid of it but got rid of most of it. That's the bigger one. But what it means i- is unclear. Katherine Flegal has written very well on this and talked about these different things and how much you're throwing away and pointing out, say, yes, these are the patterns we observe, but what they mean causally is unclear. So that's the whole confounding issue. The bottom line is it's likely that there's confounding by cigarette smoking and socioeconomic status and stigma. Right? That's one of the big things, right? How much does obesity kill you because it stigmatizes you, and it creates some stress? Could be. And that may be, by the way, why the, the BMI associated with the lowest mortality has been increasing over calendar time. Now, it's not just with age of individuals.

   12. PAPeter Attia48:09

       Mm-hmm.

   13. DADavid Allison48:09

       But if you compare data collected in the 1970s to data collected in the 1990s, obesity doesn't, from an association point of view, look quite as bad in the 1990s as it did in the 1970s. And that's true in Denmark, and that's true in the US, and it's true in meta-analysis, although, again, not for every age, race, sex group. Why is that? And maybe it's stigma. Maybe it's that if you were-- you know, if you think about you watch, like, The Three Stooges, those old TV shows, and, and there was Curly, and he was often, you know, mocked as the fat guy, right? By today's standards, he's not that big.

   14. PAPeter Attia48:46

       [chuckles] Right.

   15. DADavid Allison48:47

       And so what's stigmatized changes over time as different BMIs become normative And so it may be that that's partially accounting for it. So there's lots of potential confounding going on there, but there's lots of other possible explanations. So bottom line, we don't know. And the real important question then is what's the effect of intervention? This goes back to my friend and someone I really idolize in the field, one of the clearest thinkers, Don Rubin, statistician at Harvard, talks about the Rubin causal model, and he's always asking, "What's the intervention?" If you say, "Does this cause that?" What do you mean? Compared to what? It's always gotta be compared to what, right? And so if you say weight loss is gonna increase longevity, that's the question. Well, how are you gonna achieve that weight? What are you gonna do to get that? Well then, if it's surgery, then what's the effect of surgery? It's a GLP-1 agonist. What's the effect of a GLP-1 agonist, et cetera. So that I think, is the key question, and I think what we're starting to see is some of those things do prolong life, surgery, SGLT2 inhibitors, GLP-1 agonist, and so forth.

9. 49:54 – 57:12

   How body composition and ethnicity factor into consideration of BMI data

   1. DADavid Allison49:54

      Now, to your other question about body composition, many people like to point out that BMI is a measure of mass divided by stature. It was developed by Adolphe Quetelet, who was a Belgian astronomer, epidemiologist, statistician, mathematician back in the 19th century. Brilliant guy. Um, we actually named a professorship after him, and I held that title. I was very grateful for that opportunity back when I was at the University of Alabama at Birmingham before I came to IU. And Quetelet made it, you would think that BMI, that is... or rather the mass of a three-dimensional object ought to increase in proportion to the cube of a linear dimension. And if in fact we were spheres of uniform density, that would be true. But I don't know about you, I'm not a sphere of uniform density, so it turns out not to work that way exactly. Turns out that empirically it works closer to the square for adult humans. Quetelet realized that, and so he said, "Take mass or weight over stature squared, the square of stature." That's-- Then it was called Quetelet's index, now we call it BMI. It was sort of rediscovered in the sixties or seventies by Ancel Keys and termed BMI, body mass index. And every few years, some smart person likes to come along and says, "It should be cubed." And we go, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, we get it. We, we knew that like a couple hundred years ago, and we worked that out."

   2. PAPeter Attia51:25

      [laughs]

   3. DADavid Allison51:25

      Then they say, "And it doesn't really take into account body composition." We say, "We, we, we know that." And they say, "The NBA center would have a BMI greater than thirty, and yet look how strong and fit that NBA center is." We go, "Right. If the NBA center comes to your clinical practice, don't measure his BMI and diagnose him with obesity on that." And what physician in his or her right mind would do such a thing? So clearly we get that. BMI is a useful tool for epidemiologic research and some simple physiologic research and some simple clinical trials. It's not a g- perfect clinical tool. For the average person, it, it works okay.

   4. PAPeter Attia52:08

      Now, do we have to be worried about different ethnicities? Obviously, the two that come to mind would be Asian and East Asians, um, because, y- you know, again, I think most people are kind of familiar with this idea of skinny fat, right? So you have someone of East Asian descent whose BMI is twenty-six, which by all intents sounds just wonderful, um, but they have metabolic syndrome, right? There's nothing about this person that's healthy, right? Every metric across the board, tons of visceral fat, um, very little muscle mass, et cetera. Um, and that's a different phenotype, right? That's a slightly different phenotype than perhaps the model was built on. So do-- H- how much is the metric that we use for BMI, you know, twenty to twenty-five being perfect, twenty-five to thirty being overweight, thirty to whatever it is, forty being obese, and then morbidly obese kicks in at some point, I'm sure. Um, is that validated on other ethnicities as well?

   5. DADavid Allison53:10

      Yes and no. So, so with a few exceptions, the idea that there's a curve and that it's a generally concave up curve, yes. Although, again, there are exceptions. Um, but the shape of that curve is not the same in every age, race, and sex group. It does seem that the right side, the part where you're getting too high in BMI and risk is going up, seems to occur a lot earlier among people of Middle Eastern and East Asian descent. Um, and so that's a very simple model. You know, it just sort of says, "Oh, it's all a curve for everybody." A slightly more complicated model says, "Well, we know some of the other factors that come in, like how much of your fat is subcutaneous versus how much is visceral, and it's just that that group has more visceral fat than that group for any given body mass index, and therefore it adjusts the curves." And, and there's probably some truth to that. Um, but it's probably even more than that. So for example, a lot of these statements we hear, and this goes back to way back when I said way at Vassar College, I loved the complexity of it, that you had to look at it from so-- obesity from so many different angles, and that's still true. The narratives we have about obesity, including about ethnicity obesity, are grossly oversimplified. So we often hear obesity is selectively a disease of the poor and uneducated, that often in this country it's stated minority status leads to less income, less education, which in turn leads to poorer access to healthcare, poorer habits, poorer living environments, which leads to poorer health and reduced longevity. And there's probably some truth to that But it's not one-to-one. It's not simple. So for example, when we hear that there's this inverse relationship between socioeconomic status and obesity, which we hear over and over again, first shown by Mickey Stunkard again in the, in the 1950s in the Midtown Manhattan Project. Um, that's true in white women. It's reliably true in adult white women. When you go outside the group of adult white women, not always true.

   6. PAPeter Attia55:26

      Hmm.

   7. DADavid Allison55:26

      If you go to African American women, virtually no association between socioeconomic status and obesity. When you go to African American men and you look at their obesity levels, they're very similar to the obesity levels of European American men, white American men. But if you look at African American women's obesity levels and you compare it to European or white American women, much higher. If you bring Hispanic Americans in, both men and women have higher levels of obesity than do European American men and women. So now you, you have a ethnicity difference but not a gender by ethnicity difference, whereas in African American you have a gender by ethnicity difference. When you look at mortality, the African American curves follow similarly but not identically to the European American curves. But in our research, we can't find an association between BMI and longevity in Hispanic Americans.

   8. PAPeter Attia56:32

      Wow. Just say that again. That's pretty interesting. And that's across all BMIs?

   9. DADavid Allison56:37

      We've been unable to find it. Now, you know, the data sets we have are not perfect. The follow-ups may not be long enough. The sample sizes may not be big enough. You know, you can always question things. Uh, uh, I don't say it's causal. I'm just saying this is what we observed a few years ago when we got every data set that was publicly available that we could get our hands on that involved Hispanic Americans and BMI and longevity, and we analyzed them all together with common methods as carefully and thoroughly as we could. We could not find an association between BMI, elevated BMI and

10. 57:12 – 1:02:31

    Superior tools for measuring obesity at the individual level

    1. DADavid Allison57:12

       mortality.

    2. PAPeter Attia57:13

       As someone who sits on the opposite end of the spectrum, right, where I don't at all concern myself with public health. I don't-- I'm not trying to make grand observations about what's happening in society across ethnicities or anything like that. I'm-- I really just have the luxury of looking at one person at a time and trying to make a determination about the best course of action. Um, you know, my view of BMI is generally quite negative, right? It's that-- It's the, it's the maybe the least bad tool available to get massive data sets and make broad assessments of what's happening at the population level. But to your point earlier, at the individual level, it offers very little insight relative to other tools. Um, you know, when we have patients do DEXA scans, uh, I tell them that, you know, we're gonna get four important pieces of information out of this. Um, but one of them is really the least important to me, which is your subcutaneous fat. That's the first thing people wanna look at when they have a DEXA scan. They wanna see what's their percentage of body fat. And I say, "But there's three things that are much more important to us," right? One is your visceral fat, um, one is your bone mineral density, and one is your appendicular lean mass index, so how much muscle mass do you actually have? And we'll look at your subcutaneous fat, um, but the reality of it is that doesn't really seem to matter because, A, that seems to be incredibly genetic, right? Body habitus in that regard, uh, very genetic, uh, and relatively uncoupled from metabolic health. Um, so the, the VAT, the visceral adipose tissue, seems to be much more tightly correlated to what we see when we look at more sophisticated biomarkers of insulin sensitivity and metabolic health. You know, any evidence of liver fat, all of these other things tend to track much more closely with that. So, I mean, I guess m-my view on this is that I'm, I'm glad that I get to look at these other metrics because I don't have-- I, I have the luxury that a, a statistician or an epidemiologist doesn't have, right? Which is when you do things at the individual level, you have much more data, and you can be much more, um, nuanced in your appreciation for things. Um, but I can't help but wonder if at the population level, something better than BMI will come along one day, uh, for which there will be enough data to actually do what's out there. And, and again, this example with the Hispanic subset, that-that's just, that's mind-boggling to me. And it, and it really speaks to, I think, the futility of that measurement in other populations.

    3. DADavid Allison59:57

       That is one plausible interpretation, and I don't think we're far away from these better tools. So for example, uh, we published some work years ago on the idea of using 3D photography.

    4. PAPeter Attia1:00:09

       Hmm.

    5. DADavid Allison1:00:09

       Where, you know, just take a picture of somebody from a couple of angles. You know, and this came out of work experience way back at the New York Obesity Research Center, where Steve Heimsfield, who was my mentor, would study professional basketball players. They would bring the teams in from New York to him, and he would-- He was the king of body composition, and he would study them. And in talking with some of the technicians there who did this every day, who measured people's body composition every day, they would say, "I can look at a person and tell you how much fat they have, and I'll be very accurate." They were good at it. I said, "Well-

    6. PAPeter Attia1:00:41

       Yeah

    7. DADavid Allison1:00:41

       ... if you can do it with your eye, why can't my camera do it?"

    8. PAPeter Attia1:00:44

       Mm-hmm.

    9. DADavid Allison1:00:44

       So we got an NIH grant with Olivia Fuso and I and Steve Heimsfield to look at this, published a paper on it. Since then, many others have done it, and I think Amazon may be working on this or already have something out on this. So I think we'll, we'll get to the point where we have 3D photography, right? So that's, that's, um, Archimedes' principle, right? Eu-Eureka. I found it. The crown goes under the water. He knows how much gold is in it 'cause he knows how much ... water it's displaced. Uh, so if you can weigh it and you can measure its some-- if you can measure something's weight and volume, you know its density. If you know a little about human anatomy, you can figure out from density body fat. That's Archimedes principle. That's what we can do with a camera. So we have that. We have DEXA. We have plethysmography. We have isotope dilution techniques. All of these can start to be used more en masse on and on. And so I think these, these will be coming, and we'll do better with that. But I also think there's this idea of fit for purpose. You know, if you were to say to me, you know, "Is your-- is my vehicle that I drive, is this, you know, precision enough for the Indy 500?" No, I mean, they need better vehicles, but I'm not in the Indy 500. I'm just driving five miles to and from work every day. Um, it's fine. And so I think it's fit for purpose. If you say to me, "Tell me how many-- what proportion of that country has obesity?" BMI is probably perfectly reasonable. Um, if you say, "I just wanna know on average, what's the approximate correlation between obesity level and whether you play golf or not?" That is probably okay. But if you wanna say, "I wanna help this individual patient," es- es- especially at the sort of, you know, the, the kind of artisan level that you go at, then you need better tools.

11. 1:02:31 – 1:06:55

    Using BMI data for actionable steps to combat obesity

    1. PAPeter Attia1:02:31

       Well, the other thing that comes back to your friend Ruben is y- you're still limited in the what to do, you know, the, the now what question, right? So if you say, "Well, we're gonna take our tool of BMI extrapolation, and we're gonna look at the state of Indiana," and we can pretty accurately probably po- plot out the histogram of exactly what the BMI is by age and by demographic and all those things. It's the so what question. Well, what do we do with that information? What's the implication of this? Are people in Indiana more or less healthy than people in Kentucky? And are they more or less healthy than the average American? And more importantly, are they more or less average than the average per-- more or less healthy than the average person on this planet? And what can we do to improve their health, even if we don't wanna compare them to anybody other than an absolute standard and say, "Could everybody become healthier? Could we extend the life of the average person in the state of Indiana by three years? What would the intervention need to be?" And that obviously becomes a much more complicated problem, but it's a more germane question, right?

    2. DADavid Allison1:03:36

       It- it's-- and it's not a fanciful question. It's a question that we literally are asking. And so this becomes tough because when I talk to people, even physicians, even highly educated scholars, there's this bifurcation. There's the data and those who look at the data, and if they really know the data and they're really honest, they say, "We agree. Surgery works. Pharmaceuticals work. Individualized or, or group-based clinical treatment with behavioral cognitive techniques works somewhat for some period of time. Meal replacement formulas work somewhat for some period of time." But all the public health stuff we've tried now, if you really are honest and you really scrape away the obfuscated data, there's virtually no evidence thus far that any of those community, school, public health things for obesity work. Doesn't mean that we won't get them someday, but right now they don't. So when people come and say, "Well, what do we do about the state of Indiana?" And I get this question a lot. Say, "What's your goal? Is your goal to expose people to ideas so that there's some really smart kid, right, the next Marie Curie, the next Einstein, the next George Washington Carver is there in that classroom?" And maybe the thing you do to try to reduce obesity has no effect on obesity, but that kid is thinking about it for the next 15 years. And then when they become an adult, they go, "I got an idea." And suddenly, someone smarter than we are or with new knowledge cracks it. Is that your goal? Then it's consciousness raising. Okay, fine. Is your goal to say to communities, "We know you're suffering, and we know this is concerning, and we want you to know we care, and we're trying. We're not really gonna necessarily reduce obesity levels, but we wanna know you care. Well, we want you to know we care, and you want farmers markets in the school parking lot. You want vending machines changed. You want running tracks built in your neighborhood. We'll, we'll build running tracks and so on. And we'll feel better about we're caring for each other." Fair. But it's probably not gonna affect obesity given what we know right now. Or do you say, "I actually want to have less people suffering with and from obesity. I want obesity levels in some definable, countable number of people to go down, and I want their health to improve." I'd say it's, you know, it's not gonna win you any feel-good awards, but surgery, pharmaceuticals, and to some extent individualized treatment, um, or, you know, cognitive behavioral group-based treatment, including things like meal replacements and so on, those are ways to go. You could take-- if, if the state of Indiana handed me $10 million and said, "Make a difference," I would not go build farmers markets in schoolyards. I would say, "It'll only be a small number of people, but let's give bariatric surgery to a subset of people, and those subset of people will likely live longer on average."

12. 1:06:55 – 1:18:44

    Why maintaining weight loss is more challenging than losing weight

    1. PAPeter Attia1:06:55

       What's the best explanation for why weight loss is not particularly difficult, but weight loss maintained is incredibly difficult?

    2. DADavid Allison1:07:05

       There's probably no single explanation, and, um, I think That question of why is a tough one. Do we mean evolutionarily why? That is, what happened in evolution that got us to be what we are today that leads to that? Or is it biochemically and otherwise why? That is, what are the mechanisms involved? And I don't-- from either point of view, I don't know all the answers. Um, from the evolutionary point of view, for a long time, the meme was it's the thrifty gene hypothesis from James Neel, right?

    3. PAPeter Attia1:07:42

       Right.

    4. DADavid Allison1:07:42

       So the idea is that animals in general, and including and especially humans, throughout evolutionary history were on the brink of starvation. So anything you could do to preserve energy, you did, and anything you did that when given the opportunity to get more energy, eat as much as you can while you can. And then you get into this modern environment where there's, for practical purposes for most of us, unlimited consumable energy, you overconsume. I think that's simplistic for many, many reasons. First of all, as the lawyers say, "Objection, it assumes facts not in evidence." That is, it's not at all clear that humans have been on the brink of starvation throughout history. In fact, Robert Fogel, who won the Nobel Prize for looking at these old data going back to at least the 1700s of British naval recruits and other places, you see BMI sort of on average they're going up over the centuries, but there's a little fluctuation as things get better and worse in places. Second thing is how does this account for pregnancy, right? Now maybe now the latest data from John Speakman and colleagues in science with all the doubly labeled water about three months ago maybe suggest that during pregnancy, women's energy intakes don't need to go up that much, but they still go up. And so if humans have been reproducing for millennia, where did all that extra energy come from if we were all on the brink of starvation-

    5. PAPeter Attia1:09:12

       [chuckles]

    6. DADavid Allison1:09:13

       ... all the time? And then the last thing I'll say is anybody who ever goes fishing knows that the idea that every animal is hungry all the time and is gonna gl- gripe- grab every bite of food you throw in front of it has never been fishing.

    7. PAPeter Attia1:09:28

       [chuckles]

    8. DADavid Allison1:09:29

       Uh, you can, you, you can see that beautiful bass sitting in the clear water in front of you, and you can dangle your worm or killie or whatever it is you've got, and sometimes the fish just looks at you. So it's not at all clear that this is the case. Some animals do get obese when given unlimited food, some don't, both within and across species.

    9. PAPeter Attia1:09:49

       Mm-hmm.

    10. DADavid Allison1:09:49

        There's lots of differences. So that's that. Um, John Speakman came along, and he said, "I'm not sure I'm buying this whole idea." He said, "I think it's freedom from predation." Back in history, we were prey. Then there was a certain point where we learned to use tools and hunt together, and we stopped being prey, and we started being predators. And when we switched from being prey to predators, then we didn't need to hide in our burrows and eat the lim-- the least we could because every time you came out of your burrow, you were potentially exposed to a predator. We could sort of walk around and eat kind of ad lib. And in that case, the genes that were being selected for that gave us satiety mechanisms that kept our weight down no longer were being selected for. It wasn't that nature was selecting for genes that made us fatter. It just wasn't selecting for genes that kept us thin. And that, and then what happens is called drift. You know, mutations happen, and things just drift. So he calls it the drifty hypothesis.

    11. PAPeter Attia1:10:57

        And it's really less-- uh, it's, it's less about the thinness. The thinness was really a consequence of what the genes were probably selecting for, which presumably was lower appetite or something like that, right?

    12. DADavid Allison1:11:10

        Probably. And I think these things, it's not one-- there's not one factor, right? We see this, for example, in the evolution of, um, sexual reproduction, which is-- it's called the queen of questions in biology, right? Nobody can really figure out why do we have sexual reproduction when asexual reproduction seems so much more efficient from a genetic fitness point of view? And people have proposed different hypotheses for it, and no one seems to work mathematically. And what it may be is that it's only by putting them all together that it mathematically works, and it's just an inelegant solution. You see similar things in physics where it may be, you know, these beautiful, simple mathematical things may not hold up. You may just have to have ugly composite theories.

    13. PAPeter Attia1:11:52

        Say a bit more about that. That's interesting. I've never heard the argument for... I, I don't, I don't actually know much about asexual reproduction. I don't spend much time thinking about plants or other, uh, life forms that, that, that do it. But w-what's the argument for why we would be better off with asexual reproduction?

    14. DADavid Allison1:12:10

        Well, think about something like Daphnia, which is a species that can produce both sexually and asexually. There are many species like this all the way up through some vertebrates. Um, and if a, if an organism reproduces itself asexually, just sort of makes a copy of itself, think about what it's done is it's reproduced all of its genes. And so from the, the Da-- from the Dawkins, the Richard Dawkins point of view, um, the selfish gene, those genes all got their way. Those genes all won. They got copied, and genes that are good at getting copied will get copied again in the future, right? So you have more of those. That's how evolution works. Whereas if you reproduce sexually, you get another partner. Now, of course, this assumes other-- this invites other questions like, well, why are there only two sexes? And, um, why in fact have sexes at all? You could exchange DNA without having sexes, right? Bacteria do it through conjugation. But we'll put that aside for the moment. Say there are two sexes, male and female. They come together. They mix up their genetic material The offspring has roughly 50% of the genetic material of one parent and 50% of the other, and now you, you only copied yourself one half. And so you didn't win as much as if you copied yourself entirely. So why would you ever switch to sexual reproduction? It's very inefficient from a genetic fitness point of view. Now, you can hypothesize things. The most compelling hypothesis I've heard, to me, is the so-called Red Queen hypothesis, which is from Alice in the Looking Glass, where the Red Queen is running with Alice, and Alice at one point says, "We don't seem to be getting anywhere." And the Red Queen says, "Oh, in this world, you have to run as fast as you can just to stay in place." And Alice says, "Oh, in my world, we run and we actually get somewhere." And so the Red Queen hypothesis is the idea that you, you keep running as fast as you can just to stay steady. Well, what does that mean is, well, as you're living a long time as a human, there are these microbes in you, and they're evolving much more rapidly because they have a much more shorter generation time. And as they evolve, they start to get good at getting past your defenses and your locks. They start developing keys to your locks. And you wanna reset the locks. The way you reset the locks-

    15. PAPeter Attia1:14:45

        Mm

    16. DADavid Allison1:14:45

        ... is by getting a partner and mixing up your DNA with them. So the idea that it's a way of keeping up with the Joneses, where the Joneses are the bacteria, the microbes in your body.

    17. PAPeter Attia1:14:55

        That's, that's super elegant, right? 'Cause if you think about it, if it was all asexual, we'd have a population of identical people. I mean, we would, for all intents and purposes... It'd be interesting to do the math on what it would look like, but you might only have a few hundred thousand gene pools as opposed to-

    18. DADavid Allison1:15:15

        Right

    19. PAPeter Attia1:15:15

        ... billions.

    20. DADavid Allison1:15:15

        You'd have much less diversity.

    21. PAPeter Attia1:15:17

        Yeah.

    22. DADavid Allison1:15:18

        Much less diversity. So the, so from a species point of view, if you believed in group selection, right, then you say, "All right, it's good for the species." But then the, the smart evolutionary biologists come along and say, "Yeah, but that's group selection. It doesn't make sense. Selection occurs at the individual or gene level." You've gotta explain how it makes sense for that individual, how it enhances their fitness or their gene's fitness. So you say, "Okay, well, if only half the genes get reproduced, then it's gotta be double the fitness level to break even." And that doesn't seem like it really holds up. So what people have said is, "You know what? If you take a handful of things," which I can't explain them all right now. There's Muller's ratchet, and there's this and that, and you take all of these things and you put them together, then maybe the math works. But it's very inelegant. It's not one nice little theory. And it, it's probably the same thing with people and evolution. So there was Neil with the thrifty gene. That is, you need to be selected to get food when you can. There's probably some truth to that. Maybe not everybody's dying of starvation, but if you're not getting enough food, you may not be big enough to win the battle for mates in a polygynous physical combat mating system. Um, and so that may, that may select for wanting to eat more. You may not be... Think of the Frisch hypothesis. You get too thin as a woman, you stop menstruating. So it may be that it's not that you die of starvation, but that your reproductive fitness goes down. On the other hand, the predation, the freedom from predation idea that John Speakman puts out is also legitimate. And there are yet others. Uh, Gary Beauchamp from, uh, Monell Chemical Senses Center has talked about the idea of the safety of food. Is it possible that if you're back in time and you're not eating out of a refrigerator in a modern safe food supply like we have, you know, we love to insult our food supply. It's probably the safest food supply in history. Um, every time you eat something, you're exposing yourself potentially to microbes and toxins, not just predators. And if you eat less, you're less exposure. So there's, again, there's an optimization problem.

    23. PAPeter Attia1:17:34

        Mm.

    24. DADavid Allison1:17:34

        But as you now have a safer food supply, you can relax that constraint a little bit. Um, you can even think about it socially. If, if I were in a species where I'm just out on my own, right, if I'm a, you know, species that just eats eucalyptus leaves or something and doesn't depend on anything else, then maybe I can eat the last eucalyptus leaf. But if I'm a species that very much depends upon cooperative living, right, if I am so hungry all the time that I'm willing to try to kill you for the last bite of chicken, and you're willing to try to kill me for the last bite of chicken, that's a bad situation, especially for me 'cause you're a little bigger than me and did more martial arts. You know, so, so that's not good for fitness. It might be good to have satiety mechanisms just so we can preserve some social order. So after you and I each eat a little chicken, we can actually work together on building tools and engines and steam engines and airplanes and so on.

    25. PAPeter Attia1:18:33

        [laughs] Th- this is super fascinating. I, I [laughs] could go down this path forever. Um, I think we'll come back to this next time we have dinner, 'cause having this discussion over a meal would make it even

13. 1:18:44 – 1:25:08

    Differing perspectives on the utility of nutritional epidemiology

    1. PAPeter Attia1:18:44

       better. Uh, let's march on to the, uh, the topic of nutritional epidemiology. We've, we've talked a little bit about epidemiology. Obviously, epidemiology is married very closely with statistics. Uh, without statistics, you can't really do epidemiology. Um, but it's a field that I think even the casual listener of this podcast will understand has its limitations, if by no other means than they've heard me rail on it many times. So, um, I, I don't think we need to define it. I think people understand the nature of it. But let's talk a little bit about your, um- ... y- y- your, your views of it because I think you... I, I wouldn't say you're in either camp, right? There's a camp of people that would say there is absolutely nothing wrong with epidemiology, nutritional epidemiology. It is a masterful tool that provides exceptional insights without which we would be lost. [lip smacks] The other end of the spectrum, I, I'll acknowledge I'm a little closer to the other end of that spectrum. There are people who say, "This is a tool that has probably reached its peak of utility, um, and the epidemiologist should probably focus on other problems outside of nutrition now." Um, you're probably more in the middle of those, but I'd like to hear you talk a little bit about the bookends and, and how, where you settle out and why, more importantly.

    2. DADavid Allison1:20:12

       I appreciate the opportunity to comment on this. It, it's a topic that I feel really does need more, more, um, [lip smacks] courageous addressing. And I think that you have characterized it well. There are at one end the people I would call the abolitionists. Um, you're... I agree, you're, you're close. Uh, our mutual friend Gary Taubes has said, uh, "At some point we need to recognize that nutrition epidemiology is a dead science." Um, [lip smacks] uh, I'm sorry. That was John Ioannidis-

    3. PAPeter Attia1:20:44

       Yes. Yeah

    4. DADavid Allison1:20:44

       ... another mutual friend who said, uh, "Nutrition epidemiology is a dead science and it's time to bury the corpse." Gary Taubes has been very critical. Nina Teicholz, you, many others have pointed out that perhaps this is just a worthless waste of time [lip smacks] and misleading. At the other end, there are a number of people [swallows] they, they tend to be concentrated in Boston it seems-

    5. PAPeter Attia1:21:09

       Yeah

    6. DADavid Allison1:21:09

       ... uh, but not only

    7. PAPeter Attia1:21:10

       There's a, there's, there's, there's little school out east there. I forget the name of it. It's in Cambridge-

    8. DADavid Allison1:21:14

       Yeah

    9. PAPeter Attia1:21:14

       ... is it? Yeah. Okay. Anyway.

    10. DADavid Allison1:21:15

        Yeah. I think I've heard of it.

    11. PAPeter Attia1:21:16

        Yeah. I think I've heard of it.

    12. DADavid Allison1:21:18

        And, uh, there are other places that believe this, but it's probably strongest in Boston, um, [lip smacks] that sort of seem to be the defenders of the status quo that say nutrition epidemiology is imperfect as all tools are, but it is still a very valuable tool. There's nothing seriously wrong with it. Those who criticize it are naive. And, and I, I look at this, oh, naive and ignorant. A- and I look at a quotation like that and I think, "Really? You're telling me that Gary Taubes and John Ioannidis are naive and ignorant?" If you wanna tell me you don't agree with them, that's fine. Naive and ignorant? Come now. Not really. [lip smacks] So we know that there's something wrong there. When we look at the evidence, it's very clear that many findings from nutrition epidemiology have not held up once we've done randomized controlled trials. Now, some people will say, "No, you're wrong." And I've had arguments with people from Boston about this, and they said, "You're wrong." Um, if you look at these meta-analyses, it looks like non-randomized studies on average give very similar findings to randomized studies. But often they're citing non-randomized intervention studies, not ra- non-randomized observational studies, and they're often not citing nutrition studies. They're citing pharmaceutical or other medical treatment. So those are very different situations. When you look at the nutrition epi, it's not clear to me that these things hold up very well when they are studied. In fact, it seems to be more the norm that they don't. If you look at other things going on, as John Ioannidis probably better than anybody else has done, but many others have done, and you start to peel the hood open on these and you really look, you see a lot of things that look like obfuscation, exaggeration, sweeping under the rug of measurement error, and so on. So we've got huge issues with confounding. We've got huge measurement problems. And so I think many people, including me, say, "No, the status quo is not okay. It's not just minor fine-tuning. We need reformation." But we also need to use these tools well. This field is not going to go away whether you want it to or not. So my feeling is reformation is essential. The status quo is completely unacceptable, but abolition is neither realistic nor desirable. And I wanna cite one paper we did which I think makes an interesting point. [lip smacks] This paper... [swallows] You know, I often, you know, end reading the, the observational epidemiology nutrition study in which the author correctly and honestly points out that it's an observational study as association not cause- not necessarily showing causation, and then says, "But how could I be wrong? Well, it could be that this measurement error creates this problem." They say, "But I used a validated food frequency questionnaire, so it's really okay." Could be confounding due to socioeconomic status, but all of my subjects had the same profession, so it's really okay, as though the nurse who works in a poor school in rural Indiana has the same socioeconomic status as the nurse who is the... married to a billionaire. Of course not. Um, they say we control for we only t- never smokers and so on and so on. So really it was okay. They dismiss the idea that it's not really causation. And I got this idea once and I said, "You know, what they're saying is if I measured everything well and I controlled for food intake and I controlled for diet composition and housing and socioeconomic status and genetic background, then it would be okay."

14. 1:25:08 – 1:29:59

    A mouse study illustrating the impossibility of fully controlling for confounds in observational studies

    1. DADavid Allison1:25:09

       So I said, "You know, you could never do this study in humans," but I realized I've done this in mice. And we had a mouse study where we randomly assigned mice to eat different amounts of calories or food energy, but all on the same diet. So composition was fixed and the mice had no choice. There were no restaurants. There was no Grubhub. There was no DoorDash. We gave the mice the same food They all ate the same thing. No self-report. They're all genetically identical in probability because they're, you know, an inbred isogenic strain, all C57 black 6J mice. They're all in the same housing conditions. There's no smoking, et cetera. And then we take these mice and we randomly assign them to low calorie, medium calorie, high calorie effectively, or ad lib, ad libitum. And what we find is the more calories we assign them to be allowed to eat, the shorter they live. No big surprise there. This has been shown a thousand times in the literature by Ray Walford and, and, you know, Rick Weinrich and, and others over the decades. But then we take the ad libitum group, and within that, some choose to eat more than others. And within that group, now we have an observational epidemiologic study, and we correlate amount chosen to be eaten with longevity. And those mice that choose to eat more live longer. So the association in the observational component is exactly opposite to the causal effect in the experimental component. And what people say to me is, "Well, David, it's confounding. What you're seeing probably, almost certainly, is that the mice that are the strongest and healthiest have the biggest appetites. They eat more, and what you're seeing is confounding by general health." To which I say, "Right. That's the point." The point is, even in a study, an observational study that is more pristine than anybody will ever be able to do a human study, which there's no smoking, no restaurants, everybody eats the same thing, there's no measurement error. You know, it's, uh, they're all genetically identical in probability. We can't get the observational study to reproduce the causal effect. And that suggests to me why reform is so needed. And we talk about different kinds of observational studies. What I would love to never hear again is the puerile analogy of there's no randomized controlled trials with parachute jumping, right? You know what I'm talking about. That comes up every now and then. And there's a wonderful book called "Randomistas," like, you know, fashionistas, "Randomistas" by Andrew Leigh. And he says, "Actually, there are randomized controlled trials of parachute jumping." So first of all, it's just not true. But beyond the fact that there really are randomized-

    2. PAPeter Attia1:28:06

       How did the IRB approve that?

    3. DADavid Allison1:28:07

       [chuckles] You gotta be in the Army, I think.

    4. PAPeter Attia1:28:10

       Yeah. Yeah.

    5. DADavid Allison1:28:10

       Um, so, you know, the, the interesting thing there is that this is used often as an excuse to say, "Okay, I can't do the pure, perfect, pristine randomized controlled trial, so therefore you have to accept any old observational study." And I think the answer to that is no. No, we don't. We may have to accept that we're gonna draw some inferences from something other than the pure, classic, pristine randomized controlled trial. But in between that and any old observational epidemiologic study, there's a lot of space. And what we're saying is we need to get to this space here. So co-twin controls, right? You hinted at that earlier, right? How about we take your identical twin and we randomly assign you to one and the twin to the other? Or if we can't randomly assign, say, "Oh, Peter, you exercise a lot. Your twin brother doesn't exercise, but you have the same genotype." Okay, that's a tight control. Or how about things in which we intervene even if it's not randomly intervened as opposed to just observe? So we say, "Okay, in this town we're gonna build a restaurant. In that town, we're not gonna build the restaurant." It's still an intervention study even if it's not a randomized study. That's the realm of Brian Elbel, for example, looks at food deserts and things, says, "Gee, you know, we built a grocery store where there was a few food desert, and we're told that food deserts were the problem, and doesn't look like things got better when we built the grocery store." That's a much stronger design than just asking people, "How far away do you live from a grocery store?"

    6. PAPeter Attia1:29:44

       Yeah, no, I... Look, I think that's very eloquent and, and the, um, [chuckles] that, that mouse study is remarkable, by the way. I remember when that came out. That, that, that needs to be a Sunday email on, on to my group, so let's, let's remember that.

15. 1:29:59 – 1:42:06

    Limitations of nutritional epidemiology and how it can improve

    1. PAPeter Attia1:29:59

       Um, I, I would highlight two things that, that... Well, one thing that you've already alluded to and one that you haven't, but I would just add it to my side of the ledger on why I struggle so much with the legitimacy of epidemiology. Anything that relies on a food frequency questionnaire, I simply can't take seriously for the fact that at least with every patient I've ever come in contact with, to try to accurately assess what they eat based on a food frequency questionnaire would be a fool's errand. It's simply, it's, it's simply unrelated to what they eat. Full stop. The second issue I have with nutritional epidemiology comes down to the hazard ratios that very commonly show up and lead to grand statements. When you see hazard ratios like 1.16, and we talk about this like we have demonstrated the causal relationship between bacon and cancer. I mean, w- what, what would the actual fathers of epidemiology be saying in their graves if they were looking at these strength of association? Um, a- and so I'm not necessarily saying there should be no epidemiology, but boy, there needs to be a referendum on how the media is taught how to interact with such studies on, um- You know, how we scrutinize some of the methodologies behind these things. Uh, because again, you know, checking a food frequency questionnaire once in an eight-year study, it, it just doesn't mean anything. It really d- it means less than nothing, actually. And yet it's amazing that that could be the basis of an observation. So anyway, I, I... You're gonna... It's, it's hard [chuckles] for me to say something good about epidemiology.

    2. DADavid Allison1:32:01

       Well, I, I, on the measurement issue, which is often, I think, incorrectly perceived by some people as the key issue and say, "Well, yeah, we admit the measurement of food intake is a big problem, but other than that, everything's fine." And, and no, even when the measurement is near perfect, as in my mouse study, it's still not fine. Um, you don't have to go back to the fathers of epidemiology or wait for the fathers of epidemiology. You can go back to at least Confucius, who says, "To know what you know and to know what you do not know, that is true knowledge." And so this idea that we have to be honest with ourselves and each other about what we know and don't know and how we know it and don't know it is clear, and I think that's part of that reform. We need a greater level of honesty. Sami- Samine Vazire just had a paper in, um, one of the, uh, peer review journals looking at or writing about epistemic humility and saying, you know, when you get to the discussion section of a paper and you consider that the hypothesis that you made, which now seems to be supported by your data, and you say, "But I might be wrong," and then you just systematically go through with the greatest effort and art to show how you're not wrong, how you can dismiss all the competing explanations. She says that's not an honest epistemic humility. An honest epistemic humility would be to say, "I really might be wrong, and here's all the ways I might be wrong that I and others should test going forward." Michael Strevens in his book, The Knowledge Machine, does a beautiful composition, decomposition, construction, deconstruction of this and talks about the idea of communities doing this. And so that we need that, that sort of constructive battle, but it needs to be an honest battle, right? We can't engage... The battle shouldn't be ad hominem. The battle shouldn't be undercutting each other by, you know, who you are and who you work for and what your beliefs are. It needs to be a battle about the data. He calls that the iron rule of evidence. And so if I say, "Peter, your theory that X causes Y could be mistaken because your measurement of X is not valid," you need to come back and say, "I hear you. What if I measure X this way? That's a, that's a legitimate thing. Let's do it and see if we can rule it out." And then we can go back and forth and, well, maybe the measurement of Y is not right. I think we need to be more honest about that. I don't think the nutrition epidemiology field is being quite, has been quite honest about the limits of its measurement, but so have the attackers not. I've been careful about saying I think measurements of energy intake and expenditure from self-report methods are so bad that they shouldn't even be used. That is, it's not enough to say, "Well, it's not perfect." It's so bad you can't even be guaranteed to get the directional effect. So don't even use it. Better to not do the study at all. But on the other hand, if you said to me, "I want to know if people eat vegetarian or not or eat kosher or not or eat after midnight or not," I, I don't know. Maybe people do report those accurately. Maybe they don't. I honestly don't know. Um, I think we have to ask for, for what purpose.

    3. PAPeter Attia1:35:12

       You, you mentioned very briefly Katherine Flegal, um, earlier. She also wrote a very famous paper about the obesity wars. Uh, fo- give folks a bit of an idea about that, I, I thought, very excellent paper.

    4. DADavid Allison1:35:25

       Yeah. Katherine Flegal's been, um, a colleague that I, for whom I've had great respect for many, many years, and she's very, very bright and very capable and very careful. And I've learned a lot from her, actually. And she published a paper, uh, in I think it was 2005 that really got people's attention. And it was interesting in the way. It was a meta-analysis and a combined pooling analysis. Showed a few things. Um, what was interesting to me is what people harped on, particularly the media, [lip smacks] was that BMIs in the overweight range were actually not strongly associated and consistently associated with increased mortality rate. In some cases, were associated with lower mortality rate. The media went crazy with this as though it were a new finding, just as every few years they write the new finding that BMI is mass and not fat, the new finding that there's a genetic component to obesity that we knew from decades ago. The media went crazy with this. The people that are the defenders of you can never be too rich or too thin went crazy and attacked her. And the, the bizarreness of it was it wasn't new. I mean, it was a meta-analysis. How could it have been new? We all knew these data. Um, you can go back to Linus Pauling, right? The double Nobel laureate has a paper in the 1950s on BMI and life expectancy and he's got a bathtub shape curve there. So this is not new at all. Um, but somehow it was seen as new. It was in JAMA. The newspapers went crazy. The people who were defending it went crazy and they started attacking her very vociferously. Um, one investigator called it a worthless pile of rubbish and to me these are very inappropriate statements.

    5. PAPeter Attia1:37:19

       Who, who were the most vocal critics?

    6. DADavid Allison1:37:21

       Uh, some people in Boston seemed to be-

    7. PAPeter Attia1:37:23

       Interesting

    8. DADavid Allison1:37:24

       ... among the most-

    9. PAPeter Attia1:37:25

       Yeah

    10. DADavid Allison1:37:25

        ... most vocal critics. So that was kind of a very interesting thing. [lip smacks] And, but as I said, it was all on old news. Anybody been reading the literature for decades would have said, "But I already knew this." What was actually new and to me far more intriguing but got much less attention was that the Nader was moving over time. That was we talked about earlier.

    11. PAPeter Attia1:37:47

        Mm-hmm.

    12. DADavid Allison1:37:47

        That in 1990 it wasn't the same as 1970. That is, to me, very intriguing. We actually had, have an active NIH grant built on that, uh, trying to figure out what's going on with it. But anyway, they attacked her and these statements, you know, it was rubbish and that she didn't know what she was talking about and that there was nobody with a medical background. And these are all ad hominem things. First of all, it's not clear there was no one with a medical background on the paper, and even if it was clear, who cares? You know? The data are the data, whether you have an MD or you don't have an MD. It's the data that matter. What I frequently say in science, three things matter: the data, the methods used to collect the data, which give them their probative value, and the logic which connects the data and the methods to conclusions. Everything else is not science. Now, if you want to look at other things as ways of helping you make a pragmatic decision, that's fine, right? So if I say, "Oh, I trust Peter and he's a smart guy and I know he studies a lot, and he tells me I should eat this," that's maybe a very pragmatic way of making decision, but it's not science, right? The science is the data, the methods, and the logic connecting the data to conclusions, not whether I trust you or not. And so all these ad hominem things were said. They attacked her. It was very, very vociferous, very inappropriate. Um, but there are many other people who have been attacked. You know, I've been attacked. I know lots of other people who have been attacked for their, their beliefs. When Nina Teicholz had an editorial, I think in Lancet, talking about some elements of nutrition and fat and carbohydrate, many people wrote in, tried to get it retracted. Um, this is a sort of regular occurrence now. When Brad Johnson published on red meat, uh, roughly two years ago, big meta-analysis showing that the association between red meat consumption and negative health outcomes was not strong and compelling, as, you know, in his words, um, again, rig- vigorously attacked. People tried to get it retracted before it was published, which thankfully didn't work. Instead of just engaging with the data, the methods and the logic. And it's, it's, it's terrible this happens. It doesn't only happen in obesity and nutrition, but it happens a lot in obesity and nutrition.

    13. PAPeter Attia1:40:03

        Yeah. That, that's what I was kinda gonna say. It does seem to happen disproportionately in this field. Why is that?

    14. DADavid Allison1:40:10

        I think it has to do with the everyday experience, right? So back to my example from early in our discussion about the, the beta cell of the pancreas, right? If, if you are at a cocktail party in your neighborhood and you say to somebody, "Well, I study diabetes, and here's what I think about the beta cell of the pancreas and how this might work," unless that person also studies it, they're not gonna challenge you, right? They probably don't know what the beta cell of the pancreas is. They don't have strong feelings about it. They don't see it every day, so on. All of us eat every day, or almost all of us eat almost every day. Food is culture. It's family. It's love. It's economy. It's commerce. It's political beliefs. It's philosophical belief. It's ethical beliefs about whether you're a vegetarian or not. It's the sustainability of the environment. It's so connected to so many emotional things. And we all have that everyday experience. And we have to make decisions every day. Each of us decides what to eat, what to feed our kids, right? Whether to wear our seatbelt or not, all these things. We make these decisions, and then we may want to justify them. We may need to believe they're good. We may mistake our experience for expertise. And that's why I think when you get into any fields where people have everyday experience, whether it's human sexuality, whether it's relationships, whether it's child rearing, TV watching, book reading, music, eating. These are things people have very strong feelings about and often will opine about often quite aggressively in the absence of data. It is not only obesity. Statements about violence in media, statements about, um, you know, how to best teach mathematics to children. People have very strong feelings that are often quite in contrast to what

16. 1:42:06 – 1:53:28

    Addressing the obesity epidemic—the path forward and obstacles to overcome

    1. DADavid Allison1:42:06

       the data show.

    2. PAPeter Attia1:42:07

       So is there a path forward here? 'Cause it doesn't feel-

    3. DADavid Allison1:42:11

       I think-

    4. PAPeter Attia1:42:11

       ... like there's... From a nutritional standpoint, I mean, I think we've, you've already touched on a few of them, but we've, we've already seen some pretty exciting pharmacologic things come along. I think semaglutide, um, the, the s- study that we've, we've talked about before on this podcast, um, really kind of a remarkable drug. Um, it's certainly the most impressive thing that I've seen clinically, um, for obesity. But, uh, so, so, so point being, we're making great progress there. We talk about surgical treatments. Um, [lip smack] twenty-five years ago when I was in medical school, I remember the first gastric bypass I ever saw done as a medical student watching, you know, in a surgical, uh, rotation. And this was an open, this was done before they were doing them laparoscopically. It was done as an open, uh, Roux-en-Y gastric bypass on a four hundred-pound man who would die forty days later in the hospital of sepsis. He never got out of the hospital. He had an anastomotic leak. That was a very dangerous operation twenty-five years ago. Today, that operation is done almost without exception laparoscopically. It is an incredibly safe procedure, and it has also remarkable efficacy. So on this surgical front, on this pharmacologic front, we have made amazing progress. We haven't made progress on the nutritional front Are we going to?

    5. DADavid Allison1:43:42

       Not clear. You know, a, a New York Times reporter called me a few years ago, and this was in response to there, there was an article about president, I think it was President Taft, who was very obese, and somebody had found some letters between him and his physician talking about diet. And it was almost, you could have picked those letters up and said this was between a president and his or her physician today, and they would make equal sense. And the reporter said to me, this is a very bright science nutrition journalist, said to me, "David, why have we made so little progress? Why have we not been able to find the diet that reliably causes sustained weight loss?" And I said, "Your question is premised on the idea that there is a diet that reliably causes sustained weight loss. Why should we believe that that's true?" So that's an important thing to think about. I think one of the things that is perhaps a misperception, and maybe a very problematic one in our field around nutrition and weight loss or food intake and weight loss, is that there is a good diet with respect to weight loss. Particularly such that for most, if not all people, if you just ate the right way, you wouldn't have to count your calories, you wouldn't have to be uncomfortable and hungry, you wouldn't have to feel deprived, and yet you would maintain a good, healthy weight. I, I know of no reason to believe that's true. Um, I know lots of people who argue is it diet A or diet B, right? So this one thinks it's low carb, and this one thinks it's high car- or low fat, and this one thinks it's don't eat at night, and this one thinks it's, you know, whatever it is. Uh, eat paleo, you know, et cetera. Um, I'm just... Maybe the null hypothesis is, you know, doesn't matter that much. Um, there isn't such a diet for, for many people. Now, for some people, they do maintain a normal, healthy, desirable weight without trying to restrict their energy. But maybe for others, it's just not the case. I think the paths forward are manifold, and I think in some cases, we are on the good path, and in some cases, we are wandering in the drunkard's walk. We're on the good path, I think, on surgery and pharmaceuticals. Clearly a long way to go, but they've gotten much better. I'd love to see more funding for those for good research. And I think we need to-- we are on a good path, but I think we need to get on a much better path about, as a society, making those available to people, right? If you have cancer, we're willing to treat you. If you have obesity, eh, maybe not, right? So if you're rich, you can pay for that. If you're not rich, what do you do? So I'd love to see more access to care, and I think we're on a better path, but we need to be on a better path still. I think we're on a good path on stigma. Got a long way to go, but I think as a society, we've woken up to say stigmatizing obese people is not okay.

    6. PAPeter Attia1:46:55

       Do you think the pendulum's gone too far? I, I read something, uh, this might've been a joke, but I literally read that, um, Adele was actually shamed for losing weight. W- I don't know if that's true, but if it was, it would certainly suggest that the pendulum has gone a little too far in the other direction.

    7. DADavid Allison1:47:11

       I would certainly say that that's ridiculous. I don't know if she was or wasn't, but if she was, that's ridiculous. Um, to me, the, the take-home message is shaming people about their body habitus is not good in either direction. It's not a directional thing, right? It's just shaming people about their body ha- habitus is not okay. And, you know, sometimes the counterargument is, "But it's good for them because it'll help them want to lose weight." And sometimes the argument made against the shaming is empirical. It's, "Well, the evidence shows that people who experience a lot of weight shaming gain more weight," and then the causal thing is thrown in, and then people say, "Therefore, you shouldn't do it." I'm like, "You mean if shaming didn't cause weight gain, it would be okay to be immoral and cruel to others?" N- no. I mean, if you replace things like sex and race in that sentence, you're like, no, it's not okay to shame and denigrate people because of their sex, race, age, body habitus, regardless of whether it causes weight loss or weight gain, period. It's a moral issue. It's not an empirical issue. And I think that's-- we have a long way to go, but I think we're making progress and people are going, "Yeah, I guess, I guess we can generalize this idea that you shouldn't denigrate people because of age, race, sex. Maybe you shouldn't denigrate them for other characteristics that are not, you know, moral failings." Um, I think that on the basic science, we're making progress. We could make better progress if we tightened up the rigor of our science. We could make better progress if we had more funding. And many groups, including the National Academy of Sciences, and I'm, I'm on a strategic council to increase the rigor of science, all of science, not just obesity and nutrition. But we're making progress. We know so much more about genes and physiology and metabolism and cells with respect to obesity and nutrition than we knew twenty, thirty, forty years ago. The one area where, as far as I can tell, we are not making progress, and I don't think we are yet on a good path, I don't think we're on a path at all, is the sort of public health community, school-based, community-based, policy-based approach. I think we are continuing to look for our keys under the lampposts because that's where the light is, as opposed to where the keys might be. I think we are continuing to ignore the data And keep saying the same old hackneyed suggestions that people have been trying for decades, and that when you really look at the data, have been at best not been shown to work and at worst been shown to not work. And I think there are some people who are patently obfuscating those data. I think the cluster randomized trials we see in the childhood obesity literature, you know, bring to mind the phrase that rhymes with cluster muck. And it just... This is cluster muck. This is distorted evidence. This is science gone wrong in the worst sense. I think we've got to clean that up. We've got to clean up the quality of the science we do and start treating this like science just as much as the science of quarks or tires on automobiles or beta cells of pancreases and treat it like real science and take it just as seriously.

    8. PAPeter Attia1:50:44

       Can you tell folks briefly what the cluster randomization problem is?

    9. DADavid Allison1:50:48

       Sure. So a cluster randomized trial is a trial in which instead of randomizing the individual unit of observation, might be, let's say, a child in a school who you either assign to the treatment group, maybe it's exercise or the control group, no special exercise. You assign the entire-- an entire intact unit, such as a classroom or a school or a neighborhood or a family. There's nothing wrong with that as long as you have theoretically at least two clusters assigned to each condition, so you have some ability to estimate a variance. Although frankly, with only two, you have so little power and robustness. For practical purposes, that would be invalid, but theoretically it's valid. But then you must analyze the data to take into account both what's called the clustering and the nesting. The clustering is that you have people grouped, and that grouping leads to more similar individuals, right? So imagine that we did a trial, and the trial was you and your brother randomly assigned to eat low carb and me and my brother randomly assigned to eat high carb. And at the end, we see a difference by an ordinary T test. And you say, "Well, hold on a second. Was that really the effect of diet, or was that the Attia brothers are different than the Allison brothers?" Well, you have to take that into account. So that's-- you need more than one cluster, right? So if you get the Attia brothers and the Jones brothers and the Allison brothers and the Smith brothers, now in theory you can do it. But now you can't treat us like we're eight different people, right? What you really have is four different clusters, four different sibships, four different sets of brothers. You've got to take that into account. You have less degrees of freedom. People don't do that reliably, and they don't do it correctly often, and that leads to many papers being wrong. We've written countless letters to editors about this. I think we've probably had at least three or four cluster randomized trials retracted as a result of letters we've written and where people have had to come back and just say, "The results don't hold up." Um, but until, until this is changed, we have people out there who understandably say, "But I read these papers suggesting that this works. Gardening in schools makes kids thinner." Like, no. That's not what the results showed, but that's what the paper says. And until we become more rigorous and more honest,

17. 1:53:28 – 1:57:45

    What David believes to be the most promising interventions we could take to address obesity and improve public health

    1. DADavid Allison1:53:28

       we're not on a path.

    2. PAPeter Attia1:53:29

       So if I were to ask you now to speculate outside of known things, if you had to guess and if you presuppose that there is an intervention or a set of interventions that could improve public health outcomes, what would your guesses be? What would you guess to test?

    3. DADavid Allison1:53:52

       General education. Not nutrition education, general education. There is provocative data. I don't want to say definitive data. There are provocative data strongly suggesting that general education, especially for girls and women, leads to lower BMIs, lesser rates of obesity, and lesser diabetes than less education. So there are some studies in Europe of policies where someone puts in a policy and it effectively gives a cohort of people more education, and then you see in that cohort less obesity, especially among women. There's a famous study by the Ramys who were a husband-wife investigative team who actually worked at UAB when I first got there, and they started this study decades ago at UNC, and it was sort of Head Start on steroids. It was-- They called it the ABC Adarian or Abecadarian study. And they gave these kids the super Head Start program, and it was mostly just general education. There may have been a little nutrition education, but mostly just general education. Wasn't a weight loss study. Wasn't intended to be. Thirty years later, they followed them up. There's a paper in Science on this. Guess what? The women have less obesity. The Moving to Opportunity study funded by the Department of Housing and Urban Development took families who lived in so-called poor neighborhoods, and they gave them either randomly assigned them either to control, but they basically got nothing, or to housing vouchers. But the housing vouchers required that they move to less poor neighborhoods. And what they then found years later in follow-up, again published in Science and New England Journal of Medicine, is that there was less obesity and diabetes in those assigned to move to the less poor neighborhoods and given the financial wherewithal to do so. So I could go on, but these are things that suggest to me That education, general education may help. And I think that may speak to this whole socioeconomic thing we started about way earlier. What is it about higher socioeconomic status that at least in some groups, not all, but at least in white women seems to be associated with less obesity? And I don't know what the causal mechanisms are, but that might be my best. So if somebody said to me, "You're gonna be the king for a year, and you've got the federal budget, and you can take this big chunk of money, and you can make an impact in obesity and diabetes," I would say, "I'm gonna divide it into four pots." Hmm. One pot is gonna be surgery, and it's gonna be both providing it and continue to study it. The next one's gonna be pharmaceuticals, both providing it and continuing to study it. Third pot is gonna be some general education, maybe general wellbeing, safety, security, starting in early childhood to see whether that alone is enough, and it may be really reducing disparities. Back to Confucius, Confucius said, "We are not so concerned with an absence of wealth. We are concerned with a disparity of wealth." And so it may be that reducing disparities is really important. And then the fourth pot would be basic research, and I'd like to say, let's look at senolytics, and let's look at microchimerism and all the things that you talk about so often in your podcast that, that abut against both metabolism and obesity and nutrition, but also the fundamental, uh, fundamentals of senescence. So I'd love to say, can we use microchimerism to restore people to younger metabolic states? Can we use senolytics to do that? That would be my fourth bucket, those basic science

18. 1:57:45 – 2:05:27

    Reproducibility in science, normative and non-normative errors explained

    1. DADavid Allison1:57:45

       questions.

    2. PAPeter Attia1:57:46

       Now, a moment ago, you, you touched briefly on, um, the National Academy of Science, Engineering, and Medicine. You were on a panel that looked at the question of reproducibility in science, correct? This was two years ago, I think.

    3. DADavid Allison1:58:01

       Correct.

    4. PAPeter Attia1:58:01

       Now, the consensus, I believe, was that there was not a crisis, but, but we shouldn't, we shouldn't let our guards down. Am, am I sort of paraphrasing that correctly?

    5. DADavid Allison1:58:15

       Close. Uh, the phrase that, that, uh, Harvey Fineberg, who was the chair of it, I don't know if it was his phrase, but, you know, he started using and, and we followed, is no crisis but no cause for complacency. And the, the idea of no cause for complacency or no complacency is we must make things better. The no crisis is a tricky one. Depends what you mean by crisis. And some people say, if you look at dictionary definitions of crisis, the idea is that it's a system about to collapse. So, you know, you need to go to the ICU. If you don't get intervention, you're gonna die. You're in crisis. There's no evidence that science is in crisis. There's no evidence that science is about to die or it doesn't work anymore. Not at all. Another way of... is to say things are getting much, much worse rapidly. There's also no clear evidence for that. There might be some things that are getting worse, but on average, there's a lot of evidence that things are getting better. My own belief is science is better and more rigorous than it's ever been in history. Um, and so in that sense, no, I still don't think there's a crisis. But there's a third way, which is, I think, the spark for many social movements. If you think about what often happens as a social movement is you have a group of people that, for example, are often, often it's around oppression, and they're oppressed, and they're sufficiently oppressed that people are unwilling to make too much noise, and the status quo is only very slowly and grudgingly moved. And then at some point, people feel a little bit more confident and a little less oppressed, and they start to speak, and people say, "This state of affairs is not acceptable anymore." And if you were to say in that later point in time, "But it's much better than it was in the earlier time," someone might say, "It may be much better, but we ain't taking it anymore." Right? Things may be much better than they used to be. Things in 2021 are probably much better for many situations than they were in 1921 and much better then than they were in 1821. But there comes a point where you say, "You know, this lead in gasoline or this lead paint, lead in our paint or this way in which we use heating or these kinds of lack of catalytic converters on cars or this way in which we burn up fossil fuel or this way in which we treat different age, race, sex groups, it's just not okay anymore. Yes, it may be better than it was years ago. The world has spoken. We won't take it anymore." I think that's where we are with science saying, "Yes, science is probably better than it's ever been, but we also see all the flaws, and it must get better." And that's why Marcia McNutt, the president of the National Academy of Sciences, instantiated this new strategic council on trust and integrity and rigor in science and w- very generously appointed me as one of the three co-chairs. Marcia, France Cordova, who's the director emeritus of the National Science Foundation, and I are the three co-chairs and are working on trying to see what, you know, we as the academies can do to try to help a little bit, and many other organizations are also trying to help on this.

    6. PAPeter Attia2:01:15

       How much of the crisis in science, uh, well, I guess we're-- just decided we're not gonna use the word crisis. How much of the situation in science is intrinsic, is within science itself, and how much of it is a result of the public inclusive of the media's interface with science?

    7. DADavid Allison2:01:42

       I think it's both. I think science is hard. Uh, Michael Strevens' book, which I mentioned earlier, The Knowledge Machine, does a wonderful treatise on that, and I think we have to recognize that. And I th- but I think we have to make the distinction between normative errors And non-normative errors. And let's take a, an example of each. So a few hundred years ago, Galileo was under house arrest. The Pope has said, you know, "Bad writing about Copernicus. Stay locked up in your house, but we won't kill you." And from his house, Galileo directs an experiment or not really an experiment, a study. And he has, um, two colleagues go out to two tops of mounds or hills or mountains far apart, each holding a lantern with shutters and a, a synchronized watch or timepiece. And he says to them, "At a predetermined moment, you guys open your shutters, and you record when you see the other guy's light. And we'll figure out whether light travels instantaneously or not, right? Is there some delay until the light gets to you?" And they conclude that it's instantaneous. They can't discern any time. Now, we know today, of course, that that's wrong. Ole Rømer probably is the first person who convincingly shows it's wrong when he shows that a moon comes around at a time different than his mentor, Dominique Cassini, predicted. But at the time, that's the answer they get. With their instrumentation, they couldn't have done better. I would call that a normative error. I would not mock Galileo. I don't think Galileo did anything wrong. I think we look at him as brilliant. My God, great question, great way of working on it, but things move along. Similarly, when Linus Pauling says DNA is a triple helix, right? Before Watson and Crick come out, it's a double helix. Um, he didn't have good X-ray crystallography data. He's working at the edge. Normative error. Then there are other things. Very famous non-normative error is people working out the size, the size of the thymus gland of children. They worked it out from cadavers in the early 20th century. Guess what? People don't become cadavers at random. Poorer people tend to become cadavers. Poorer children tend to be undernourished. Undernourished children tend to have smaller thymus glands. So when physicians started seeing children, richer children coming in, dying of sudden infant death syndrome, and they examine them and go, "Hmm, it's a big thymus gland." Well, it was actually a normal thymus gland because their norms were from undernourished kids. Said, "Let's irradiate these kids with big thymus glands and prevent sudden infant death syndrome," and probably cause lots of cases of thyroid cancer because the thyroid and the thymus are very close to each other. So that's an example of a non-normative error because even 100 years ago, any epidemiologist or statistician could have told you that is bad sampling and bad inference from bad sampling. We need to make that distinction between normative and non-normative errors. And a lot of the errors that we have in nutrition epidemiology today, I don't think can be called normative errors anymore. I think we have to say that was non-normative. The misanalysis of the cluster randomized trials, these are not normative. Any statistician knows how to do it. People are either obfuscating or they're just woefully ignorant and not using professional statisticians when they need to. People using food frequency questionnaires to draw causal inferences about some of these things we've discussed. These are not normative errors. People should know better.

19. 2:05:27 – 2:21:36

    Rebuilding trust in science and differentiating between science and advocacy

    1. DADavid Allison2:05:27

       Then there's the stuff about the sort of more general public about believing things and how we, how we promote our ideas. And here's where I think... I think at root is us in the scientific community that have to take responsibility for it, but it branches out beyond us. I think we need to be prepared to lose some battles in order to win the intellectual war. And what I mean by that is we need to be prepared to not use all the rhetorical tools at our disposal at any one point in time to convince somebody that X is true, even when we're really worked up and think it's important. We believe X is true. We think it's important that others believe X is true, right? Because we want them to eat what we think is good. We want them to eat more broccoli and less ice cream. We want them to take their vaccine, wear their mask, wear their seatbelt, stop smoking. We may be right about all those things, right? Maybe people should eat more broccoli and less ice cream and wear their seatbelt, getting vaccinated and wear their mask and seatbelt. But if we use rhetorical devices, such as if you and I are debating and I attack you on ad hominem grounds, or I exaggerate the strength of my evidence, or I don't honestly say that I've shown an association and not causation, then in fact, I may win that battle that day on convincing people to eat broccoli instead of ice cream. But I've lost the battle in helping people think through what good evidence is and elevating our level of dialogue. And I think if we can get to the point where just as today, we changed our dialogue and we think about the things people would say. Think about what a late-night comedian would have said thirty years ago in making jokes about wives and husbands and race and sex. That would never be considered acceptable today. We are able to change societal norms about dialogue. Can we elevate our societal norms of dialogue on epistemologic and empirical issues so that we can get people to... You don't have to be a genius to say, "Oh, you're telling me you have a treatment for X? Was there a study? Was the study in humans? Was it a randomized study? Was it a study of the actual outcome you're making a claim about? Was it a study that was long enough for this to be a meaningful outcome? Was there a statistically significant result? Was the result big enough to matter? Was the dose a dose I might realistically take?" Those are not All that difficult questions to train ourselves and each other to just reliably ask, and if we just reliably ask those and reliably and honestly answer them, I think it would go a long way.

    2. PAPeter Attia2:08:11

       Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it, it's impossible to have this discussion without thinking about COVID because COVID has been such a, um, polarizing scientific, uh, phenomenon in a way that I've, I've become quite frustrated in watching it, right? I've... And I'm trying to maintain a distance from it and ask myself the question: Is the reason that the head of the CDC makes assertions about masks or vaccines or mandates because she doesn't think that the people to whom she's speaking are intelligent enough to appreciate nuance, or is it because she doesn't actually appreciate the nuance herself? Y- you know, uh, and this gets to exactly the point you made a moment ago, which is the high ground is being lost, right? I think the public's faith in science, in the institution of science, is eroding dramatically, and I think COVID has accelerated that in a way that I wouldn't have predicted. I remember having a discussion with a friend in March of 2020, and I very, very naively said to him, "I think that what we're about to see with respect to the speed with which medications and vaccines are going to be developed is going to elevate the consciousness of science in the public's eye. I think the public is going to look back in a year and say, 'Wow, science is great.'" You know, just as in the 1960s, the best and the brightest kids went into engineering because they were inspired by the space race, I stupidly thought this might be the end of every smart kid becoming an investment banker, and instead we might just see more kids enrolling in science. How silly of me to not envision what was coming, which was a world in which well-meaning public health officials simply failed to communicate the nuance of science and lost so much credibility.

    3. DADavid Allison2:10:48

       Yeah. COVID has been unique and, and I think, you know, o- one of the things I was saying to, to my wife recently is I hope I live at least another 20 years for many reasons. But one of the reasons is that I really wanna see what the historians say about the period of roughly 2016 to a year or two from now, when hopefully we are somewhat out of this pandemic. Um, I can see it in the present. I wanna see it in the 2020 hindsight. Um, let me, let me say two things about your points. One is about motivations, and the other is about trust. The motivations issue I think is an interesting one. You know, I was having a conversation with a colleague many years ago, and I was ranting about university accountants and how they're, they're, you know, they drive me crazy with little things. And this friend of mine said to me, he says, "Think about you and your science." He says, "You're so fastidious about it. You're so passionate about it. You're so committed to it. One iota of bending the truth is not okay for you." He says, "The accountant feels that way about the way the accounting is done, and that's their domain. Different people have their different domains." And if I were to say to you, you know, "Peter, what are you professionally?" Or you might say, "And, or what are you just more generally?" You might say, you might say, "I'm a father." You might say, "I'm, I'm a physician. I, I'm a healer." You might say, "I'm a scientist." You might say a few other things. When I came to IU, I was at a big retreat, and friend of mine was there, and we started going around and introducing ourselves, and I was sort of the new kid on the block. And I said, you know, "My name is David Allison, and I'm a scientist, and I study blah, blah, blah." And he said, "You know, the first thing you said, you're, like, you're the new dean here, and the first thing you said is, 'I'm a scientist.' You didn't say, 'I'm the Dean of the School of Public Health.'" And he says, "That shows how you think of yourself." If I were to s- if you were to say to me, "In your professional role, what's the one thing you must never compromise?" Truth. What's my one sacred duty? Pursue and communicate truth to the best of my ability. But if you said to some other people in my field who are equally good people, maybe better people, who knows, and you said to them, "What's your one uncompromisable duty?" Some of them would say, "Help people make their health better or enact justice." Right? Can't say they're wrong. That's their value, and I think that's what comes out a lot in public health. There are true believers who think they know the right answer. They think eating this is better than eating that. Many cases, they're probably right. They think not smoking is better than smoking. I agree. I think they're right. And given those premises, they say, "Whatever it takes to convince people to eat A and not B, to wear their seatbelt, to not smoke, I'm willing to say it. That's my sacred duty is make me better." I think that's part of the problem. What's our identity? Who's speaking? And I think we need to be clear when we are speaking as scientists- Then we must not compromise truth. And I think when we're speaking as advocates, that's fine. Just say you're an advocate. Say, "I'm not being a scientist right now. I'm just telling you what I want you to do, and I'm gonna say whatever I need to say to convince you." I think that's important. The other thing I want to pick up is this trust idea. I hear a lot, especially from people within science and academia, especially from people who are somewhat on the, the left, but not only on the left side of the, um, political spectrum, who say trust in science is really way down in the last few years. And I'm not sure that's true. In fact, I don't think it is true. Depends what you mean by science. If what you mean is science as a process of developing and finding knowledge, I know of no evidence that it's down, and the, the results of the Pew, um, Charitable Trusts and their surveys, for example, suggest that it's not. If what you mean by science is trust in individual elements of the scientific community, then I'm not sure it's down either, but it's spread around. So some people think Fauci is trustworthy, and some people think Gwyneth Paltrow is trust worthy. Some people think David Allison is, and some people think Peter Attia is, and some people think we're corrupt and ignorant and confused and terrible. Um, and I think the, the challenge is that there are people who cannot distinguish between the, the statements of a Tony Fauci and the extent to which they are or are not backed by evidence, and the statements of a Johnny Ioannidis and the extent to which they are or not backed, versus the statements of a Gwyneth Paltrow or somebody else. And I think that's the challenge. It's not that people don't trust science. They don't know which voice to trust as a communicator of the science, and therefore they don't trust individual elements of the canon of science. And we see that very strongly in nutrition. There's a nice summary on the Pew Charitable Trust website now indicating that trust in science is high. Trust in dieticians is high. Trust in medical doctors who talk about nutrition in treating their patients is high. But trust in nutrition scientists compared to dieticians and medical doctors who talk about nutrition and compared to other scientists is low. So in nutrition, we have met the enemy, and it is us. We have shot ourselves in the credibility foot with our obfuscation and our exaggeration and, um, our hype. And I think that pocket of trust is gone even though trust in science overall is not down.

    4. PAPeter Attia2:17:00

       David, this was, this was a fantastic discussion. You are always so lucid in the way that you can talk about an idea, including this very one. I, I think this, this, this point that we're ending on is, is really, really spot on, and I think that this... the difference between science and advocacy can't be overstated. Um, and I think it would be amazing if people, myself included, all of us, had the self-awareness to speak and know which hat we were wearing. I mean, that... think about the problems that could be solved if, one, you allowed people to wear both hats, but they always had to have a hat on. You, you couldn't, you couldn't, you know, blind the listener from which hat you're wearing. And if you were wearing your scientist hat, you would be delivering the nuanced hard truth as messy as it might be, as unclear as it might be, um, with no regard for how a person feels when they hear it and what action they may or may not take as a result of it. And of course, if you're really just in the business of saying, "I want to change your behavior because I think it's in your best interest," I'm gonna put the different hat on. I like this idea. We, we, we... I think there's something here. We, we can come up with a two hat system, and everybody gets to own two hats.

    5. DADavid Allison2:18:16

       You know, every one of us in our lives have to deal with this. We're both fathers. You know, as fathers, you face this all the time. Sometimes your kid says to you, "Can I do this?" And you say, "No." And the kid say, "Why?" "Well, 'cause I think you might get hurt," or, "It's a bad idea," or, "Something bad might happen," or, "You won't get that good thing." And they say, "Do you know? Are you sure?" And they have a counterargument. And if you're honest, say, "I don't know, and I'm not sure. I have no randomized controlled trial that climbing that tree is too dangerous. I'm just telling you I don't think it's a good idea. But I have no, I have no need to pretend that I did a scientific experiment. I'm your dad, and that tree looks dangerous to me, and I'm telling you to get down from it right now." And then there are other times I'm acting as a scientist and I say, "This is what would constitute adequate evidence, and this is what we know," just like Confucius said, "Know what you know, and know what you don't know."

    6. PAPeter Attia2:19:08

       Brilliant. Thank you, David. It's been, uh, a pleasure sitting here with you today.

    7. DADavid Allison2:19:13

       Thank you, my friend. Great to see you, Peter.

    8. PAPeter Attia2:19:17

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Episode duration: 2:21:41