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Peter Attia MD241 ‒ Living intentionally, valuing time, prioritizing relationships, & more keys to a rich life
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EVERY SPOKEN WORD
90 min read · 18,234 words- 0:00 – 0:08
Intro
- PAPeter Attia
[upbeat music] Hey, everyone. Welcome to "The Drive" podcast. I'm your host, Peter Attia. [upbeat music]
- 0:08 – 3:10
Reflecting on the tumultuous last few years and how his experience on Flight 1549 helped him
- PAPeter Attia
Ric, great to have you back, and, uh, great to be spending time with you. Obviously, we had dinner last night, which was, uh, wonderful. Uh, so thanks for coming to Austin.
- RERic Elias
That was such a treat last night, uh, getting to see you in full dad mode and beautiful family and great meal and lots of protein.
- PAPeter Attia
[chuckles] Indeed, lots of protein. So, uh, although we're in touch constantly, from the standpoint of the listeners, the last time they got to interact with you was, uh, probably almost exactly three years ago, 2019. Uh, so sometimes when I have folks back on, especially if it's a technical podcast, I kinda wanna talk about, okay, well, what's new information since that time? Well, this obviously isn't very technical. Uh, hopefully, folks remember a lot of the story, uh, that we talked about. Um, but nevertheless, what's, you know, w- what do you think of as kind of the, um, the highs and lows for you over the last three years? 'Cause I know there have been both.
- RERic Elias
Gosh, Peter, go back, uh, to that time and, and we had a specific conversation about leadership, and we were talking about, you know, leaders are only leaders in a time of crisis, and we had talked about how the last decade had been super benign and, you know, how do we, how do we show up in crisis? And then 60 days later, 90 days later, boom, COVID hits. So a lot [chuckles] changed, if you think about it. The last three years have been the most tumultuous three years, no matter where you are in the world, not in, not in, not in any one country. Um, and then you layer that with lots and lots of changes. Um, my kids have gone to college. Um, my mother, which we talked a lot about in the podcast, and my father-in-law and my aunt, which was like a second mom, all passed in that window. Uh, our business went aggressively into offense when the market changed because we saw some opportunities. We bought some very meaningful businesses, and then, you know, everything kind of further imploded in one way. And then, you know, and now we're living in, in the middle of a war, in the middle of uncertainty and all of that. But, you know, so the world, like always, keeps changing and surprising us. Uh, we tend to project kinda today's reality into the future, but it's always changing.
- PAPeter Attia
And how much of your, um, even keel around all of these events, personal and professional, do you attribute to, you know, what happened in January of 2009?
- RERic Elias
Um-
- PAPeter Attia
In terms of perspective, I mean.
- RERic Elias
Yeah, yeah. I-- A lot. You know, I, I really... I don't have a lot of lows. I, you know, I, uh, and I don't have a lot of high highs. I just, to me, I, it's this, this understanding that this too shall pass and, um, really doing what you can in the moment when you can is all that you really can do, and if you don't tie yourself up to the outcome as much and you're just really trying to stay in the process, I, I, I really-- I'm able to navigate this in great part because of that experience.
- 3:10 – 6:25
Parenting: a game of tug of war that you must ultimately lose
- PAPeter Attia
One of the things we spoke about in the first podcast that, uh, you know, you always have these moments of podcasts that sort of stick with you and, and that's probably true for a listener. It's certainly true for the person doing the interview. Um, there were a handful of moments. One of them was this image of raising children is playing a game of tug-of-war that you eventually lose.
- RERic Elias
Mm.
- PAPeter Attia
Now, you can't lose it immediately, right?
- RERic Elias
Right.
- PAPeter Attia
You can't just say, "Ready, go," let go of the rope.
- RERic Elias
Right.
- PAPeter Attia
But by the time they're, you know, off to college, they've pulled you over the line metaphorically. Um, at the time we had that discussion, you were still engaged [chuckles] in that tug-of-war-
- RERic Elias
Yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... that your kids were not yet in college. Now they are. I'm in the middle of that game. But I think about that constantly. Uh, maybe start by retelling a little bit of that and, and, and explaining kind of if at all your thinking has evolved or what you've learned about that game in the last few years.
- RERic Elias
Yeah, so, so that was probably the last meaningful lesson I got from my mom. Um, she had, you know, onset of Alzheimer's and, you know, we, we would have moments of, of, of that. And I, I came and I was having coffee with her, and I asked her some advice about our daughter, who was in plenty teenagerhood. And what she said was she said, she looked at me and said, "My son, uh, raising teenagers is a tug-of-war." And then there was this silence, and then she says, "That you ultimately must lose." Um, and it is, you know, like you said, you know, such a, such an insightful, you know, all-encompassing statement about parenting and is really the transition from really being... They'll always be your kid, but you will not always be their parent, and it's that transition from no longer being their parent and maybe being more of a coach, maybe being more of an advisor, a friend, all of that. They'll al- You will always treat them like your kid. So in our example, we're on the other side of this. Um, I, I don't think of myself anymore as, you know, the parent. I will always be Dad, but I'm not the parent, so the conversations are very different, and I love it. Uh, there have been times where both of our kids have looked at us and said, "I really appreciate your opinion, but this is what I'm choosing to do." And to me, that's a sign of, you know, really good kinda sense of your own decisions. And we disagree with them, but it is, like, good to see them in their journey of, of adulting, uh, now on their own, so.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah, I don't know why I'm not looking forward to it.
- RERic Elias
[chuckles]
- PAPeter Attia
But I, I... It's one of those things that you know is healthy, good, important, but-
- RERic Elias
You know, but y- have you noticed a difference in teenagerhood and how-
- PAPeter Attia
Of course
- RERic Elias
... they start pushing away?
- PAPeter Attia
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
- RERic Elias
And I've always believed that the reason why teenagerhoods, teenagers are such a pain is so that you don't miss them when they leave. And I tell you, we love our kids, and we're lucky that our kids love us back, but we were-- we high-fived each other when we dropped them off. [both laughing] We did not cry. We were like, "You know what? They're ready. We're ready." And, uh, and empty nesting is, it's a beautiful thing. You know, you still talk to them all the time, and you still see them and all that and then, you know, but it's, uh... Then the funny part is that they're doing the same things that drove you crazy. You just don't see it, [laughs] so it doesn't feel as, as intense.
- 6:25 – 12:18
Importance of friendship and Ric’s motivation for his recent “Friends summit”
- PAPeter Attia
So let's talk a little bit about, um, uh... Well, I wanna bring up something that, that happened kind of recently over the summer that I thought was spectacular. So-
- RERic Elias
Hmm
- PAPeter Attia
... early summer, you, you, you called me and said, "Hey, I'm, I'm having a, a get-together, uh, in July, uh, you know, a couple of days and I'm inviting, you know," I, I... You gave me a bunch of details, none of which meant anything to me, right? What I took away from it was you wanted me to come out for a couple of days to, to your home, and there was gonna be a bunch of other guys there, at least one of whom I knew, but most of whom I did not. And y- y- you know, you prefaced it by saying, "Look, I know it's a big ask. I know how much you hate to travel. I know..." And you will have... I had just come back from travel, and I was just leaving the next day. I would have to fly back-
- RERic Elias
I remember
- PAPeter Attia
... and then hop right on a plane. Um, but you really urged me to come, and interestingly, I thought it was a birthday.
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
And so I, I, I sort of m- m- committed that I would think about it, and then talked about it with my wife and said, "You know, I think this is special to Ric. I'm gonna go." Because I have a feeling it's one of those things where I'll spend the entire flight there kicking myself for going, um, but if I don't go, I suspect months later I'll kick myself for not going. So there's an-
- RERic Elias
Interesting
- PAPeter Attia
... asymmetry and regret.
- RERic Elias
Yeah, yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
So I ended up going. Um, and it had nothing to do with your birthday, which I think was, like, five months earlier, [laughs] so that-
- RERic Elias
Yeah, yeah, exactly
- PAPeter Attia
... I, I don't know where I got that from. T- tell, tell us about kind of what was the motivation for that, and why do you think that ended up being a really special time for... Were there 40 of us there or something?
- RERic Elias
Yeah, about 30, yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
30?
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Okay.
- RERic Elias
Um, you know, when, when, when, uh, when you go back through your year and you go back and ask yourself what was truly memorable of the year, at least in my case, there may be eight or 10 things that you will remember, you know, well into the future. And what is universal about those things is they're usually experiences, and they're experiences with people that you have a deep connection with. So I have become very, very focused on creating experiences with people that I love, um, as a way to create memorable moments of the year, 'cause I think that really is what we grow old with, is the memories. But the memories alone, uh, are not enough. It's the memories with people, and the more, they're kind of the richer. So I wanted to experiment with the concept of, you know, let, let's create a Friends summit. Let's bring 30 super interesting friends. The uniqueness of it is everybody's been curated by me. Everybody there was a friend. So I think immediately everybody showed up with, like, "Okay, if they're Ric's friends, I'm, I'm gonna be open-minded." I'm not there kinda doing, like, "What do you do? Who do you are?" It's more around, how do you know Ric, and then w- w- you know, what is interesting about each other. Um, and then, you know, we had a lot of the same participants speak and, you know, the, we curated the, the, the... We didn't over-orchestrate it, but we curated the agenda, and then we had all sorts of things around food and magician and all this other stuff. Um, and the greatest thing happened, which is one of the things that I love most, is when my good friends become great friends. And I know for a fact, 'cause I was with Rick Hendrick a week ago and we spent 15 minutes talking about you, about Matt Walker, about other people, that you guys all have become friends. And what greater currency in life than, you know, spreading love through friendship? And it was a huge home run because everybody there, even those who came as a gift to me, I think left with the gift of new friends. And at our age, it's not easy to make good new friends, uh, and it is something that we can do by leveraging our own friendships. And, and you've been good to me in this regard. I asked you when I heard, you know, your interview with, with, uh, with Matt. I say, "Hey, would you introduce me?" And we had... We've become dear, dear friends. Like, I talk to him all the time. So I don't know. It's, it's all around this currency that, um, friendships really matter in life, memories, you know, memorable moments really matter, and how do you bring all that together.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah. No, I, I... It was, I was surprised by the, the number of guys I walked away from that meeting with, um, who I couldn't wait to see again. And, you know, it's like, "Hey, look, when I'm in LA, I'll give you a call. When you're in Austin-"
- RERic Elias
That's great
- PAPeter Attia
... "you give me a call." Um, what, um, what did you learn that, that, uh, during that summit? Because there were, you know, there was some structure to it as well, where there were folks that, you know, it was kind of like a bunch of fireside chats-
- RERic Elias
Yes
- PAPeter Attia
... effectively.
- RERic Elias
Yeah, yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Um, did anything surprise you? Did you learn anything?
- RERic Elias
I learned don't schedule something like that right after a vacation, because I spent my whole vacation [laughs] thinking about... 'Cause I, I, I in essence kind of interview most people, including you. Uh, so that was a lesson which is, you know, create some gap between something in, in your relaxing time. Um, I learned that, you know, I think all of us, no matter what, need moments like that where no matter who you are to the outside world, you are n- you know, you're the one and the same in that group. So, you know, there were professional athletes, there were governors, there were CEOs, there were, you know, true people, like, are exceptional in their field like you, but everybody there was the same. So I, I think that, that this knows the, this essence of, like, you know, know the guard can be down from everybody. And yeah, for me, I got to, like, hang out with 30 of my best friends and give lots of hugs and catch up and have moments and create memories. And, you know, relationships take a lot of effort, and that was a really efficient way to, like, make huge deposits into a bunch of important accounts.
- 12:18 – 22:00
The impact of looking forward and focusing on growth on finishing life well
- PAPeter Attia
I'm blanking on his name, but he, he was the older gentleman on the very last day that spoke.
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Uh-
- RERic Elias
Walter Green
- PAPeter Attia
No, no, no, not Walter.
- RERic Elias
Marshall Rouse
- PAPeter Attia
I remember Walter.
- RERic Elias
Marshall Rouse.
- PAPeter Attia
Marshall. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- RERic Elias
Yeah, yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
No, Walter was amazing in his own right, and actually Walter's someone I want to have on the podcast. Um-
- RERic Elias
You should.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah. So, so, w- you know what's really funny? We used to be neighbors in San Diego and didn't even know it.
- RERic Elias
Oh my goodness.
- PAPeter Attia
Lived in the same neighborhood. Like-
- RERic Elias
He-
- PAPeter Attia
... lived a mile from each other.
- RERic Elias
I love Walter Green. Y- you know, Walter mentors, I don't know, 100 people like us, and we're all better because of it.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah. So, so that's, that's someone on our, on our, on our hit list-
- RERic Elias
Right
- PAPeter Attia
... for, for podcast guest. Uh, but yeah, so Marshall, who's [laughs] like, I don't know, the guy's 200 years old.
- RERic Elias
[laughs] 99 actually.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah. And, um, I think from Marshall came one of the most interesting lessons that you drew out, and it's, um, a lesson about looking forward versus looking backward and how that ties to age. Do you wanna, do you wanna recount that story?
- RERic Elias
Yeah, so I've known Marshall about 20 years. Um, I've had, I don't know, 100 lunches with Marshall. Um, and so when I met him, he was probably 81, 82.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah, yeah.
- RERic Elias
And he was still driving, and he would come in and, um, and there was something about Marshall, there is something about Marshall that is incredibly appealing and attractive, and is that every time you see him, once a month, every other month, he has a list of things that he has learned that he wants to talk about. He has ideas about things he wants to do. Um, he's constantly evolving and thinking, and what I've learned from Marshall is that your age really can be told by what you think about. Aging of our spirit, not of our bodies, not of our mind, but of our spirit, it's really about which mirror you're using. Are you using the rear view mirror or the windshield, right? And he is like... You know, I, I told a story there, right? Where he's like completely worried about one of his kids and really thinking about giving them a tough lesson because it is time and, you know, he's asking for my opinion. And I said, "Mar-" uh, I said, "Marshall, how old is your son?" And he goes, "Uh, 72." So it was a point of like, you know, he never stopped thinking in, in, in, in doing that, and that's how he lives. Lives... Uh, he turns 100 in, uh, in February, and we're gonna do something, uh, super special I hope, 'cause, uh-
- PAPeter Attia
The other story I like about him was I think when he was 96, he came to you with a, uh, with a pretty serious business idea.
- RERic Elias
[laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
And it was really predicated on trends over the next 10 years.
- RERic Elias
Correct.
- 22:00 – 33:52
How our relationships with our children evolve as they grow, and a new perspective on purpose
- PAPeter Attia
you know, this kind of brings it back to what we talked about a minute ago, which is, uh, uh, I mean, I am sad when I think about my kids not being little, and I'm not sure what that's about.
- RERic Elias
Mm.
- PAPeter Attia
But, uh, you know, we talked about it very briefly at dinner yesterday because you got to see both my boys in complete action-
- RERic Elias
Right, right
- PAPeter Attia
... which we're, we're not shy about, right? Like, we don't make any apology for the fact that they are high energy and-
- RERic Elias
You shouldn't
- PAPeter Attia
... and, and, and we totally love it.
- RERic Elias
But you were hugging. You were so physical. It was... I, I, I really was so-
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah, I mean, I, I just-
- RERic Elias
You know, reminded me of my relationship, but I also felt your joy and love.
- PAPeter Attia
But what, what, what, what Jill and I often say to each other... And, and this isn't... You have to say this in the bad times. So yesterday they were well-behaved.
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
But you know, there's equal number of times when, I mean, you'd think that they're psychotic.
- RERic Elias
[laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
I mean, you, you, you can't believe how poorly they behave, you know? Like-
- RERic Elias
We've all been there
- PAPeter Attia
... you, you know, literally, you... Jill will kill me for even, uh, even telling this publicly. Like, the other day she walked by the youngest one, and out of nowhere he just took his pencil and stabbed her in the butt.
- RERic Elias
[laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
Unprovoked. It's not like she said, "Go to your room." Uh, so it's like-
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
But in those moments I say, "I know it can be really hard."
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
I will be... I would... If I could freeze time, I would-
- RERic Elias
Yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... which is a totally irrational thing to say.
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Why do you think that is? Why, what... Did you feel that way when you and your kids were at this stage, which is you are their world, you're still daddy, not dad? Uh-
- RERic Elias
Yeah. Right, right, right
- PAPeter Attia
... I, I think this is an amazing stage, and I feel fortunate to be going through it a little later in life-
- RERic Elias
Yeah
- 33:52 – 41:40
Living with complete intention for a rich life, valuing your time, and other life lessons inspired by Ric’s near-death experience on Flight 1549
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah. It's, um, I'm... By this point in the podcast, I think most people, if they haven't familiarized theirself with, th- themselves with this story, should probably go back and listen to that, that section of our podcast is the way I think you-
- RERic Elias
Mm
- PAPeter Attia
... you tell that story. This is probably the longest version you've told of it, 'cause obviously you have a TED Talk where you go through it in, in, in some detail, which is really moving. But I, I think also just the-
- RERic Elias
Mm.
- PAPeter Attia
You know, I'm still... So remember how I said from our first meeting there are a couple of things that stand out. The other thing that really stands out from our first podcast, which is something you sort of said in almost passing. Do you know what I'm about to say?
- RERic Elias
Uh, no.
- PAPeter Attia
'Cause I've, I've shared this with you, but it's when the plane is coming down and you're going thr- once you realize there's about 10 seconds until you're gonna die-
- RERic Elias
Right, right
- PAPeter Attia
... um, you said a couple things. One, it's very calm.
- RERic Elias
Mm.
- PAPeter Attia
Like, it's-
- RERic Elias
Mm
- PAPeter Attia
... you weren't scared.
- RERic Elias
Mm.
- PAPeter Attia
You were sad. You're very sad. And you put your hand on your leg or on your other hand-
- RERic Elias
On my arm
- PAPeter Attia
... on your arm and said, "I love you."
- RERic Elias
Mm-hmm.
- PAPeter Attia
Is the last thing you said to yourself before-
- RERic Elias
Mm-hmm
- PAPeter Attia
... you would have died.
- RERic Elias
Closed my eyes.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah. And I was... And I just couldn't believe that. I was like, "That's the last thing I'd ever think to say."
- RERic Elias
Mm.
- PAPeter Attia
Um-
- RERic Elias
What would you have said?
- PAPeter Attia
I don't know that I, I probably would have said nothing.
- RERic Elias
Mm.
- PAPeter Attia
I probably would have just been very sad and, um, and, and... Yeah, I don't think there would have been any gratitude or anything like that-
- RERic Elias
No
- 41:40 – 49:55
How society’s relationship with work has changed, the pros and cons of remote and hybrid working environments, and an update on his company “Red Ventures”
- PAPeter Attia
What do you think the next, um, decade holds for you in terms of Red Ventures? So-
- RERic Elias
Mm
- PAPeter Attia
... maybe give us a bit of an update on, um... Well, maybe again, remind people what Red Ventures is, 'cause it's-
- RERic Elias
Yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... it's not a, it's not an easy thing to explain.
- RERic Elias
[laughs] But-
- PAPeter Attia
It's not like we make a widget.
- RERic Elias
No. It, you know, I- it's funny because I explained it in the last podcast three years ago differently than I'm gonna explain it now. It, it really is a basically a private equity platform of companies that we control. So instead of investing as a passive investor, we control a bunch of companies. And we have about 17 companies. Um, but you know, the, those companies, the fact is we don't own 100% of them, but we control all of them. And they're all over the place. They're in Europe, in Brazil. We're starting the first bank in Puerto Rico in 26 years. And then we own a bunch of brands in the US, mostly digital brands. We own services companies. So it's, it's just really a platform of, um, kind of tech and data and digital and a really, really strong culture and a purposeful place to work.
- PAPeter Attia
How many employees do you have now?
- RERic Elias
We are up to 4,500 employees.
- PAPeter Attia
And when I came out to visit you for a business review circa 2014-
- RERic Elias
Mm
- PAPeter Attia
... 2015, how, how big were you then?
- RERic Elias
1,200
- PAPeter Attia
1,200.
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Beautiful campus.
- RERic Elias
Thank you.
- PAPeter Attia
Is it still the same?
- RERic Elias
It's still beautiful. It's just people are not going in as often. [laughs] You know, the world has really changed. Our relationship with world-- with work has really changed. Um, and I, you know what-
- PAPeter Attia
For better?
- RERic Elias
For both. Like anything in life, everything has pros and cons. I, I think COVID did a lot of good for society. I think COVID realized that this fixed way that we thought about our relationship with work didn't have to be, and that those rules got established way early in the industrial age for control, and control is a false premise in every regard. Um, but at the same time, I'll, I'll tell you my reflection on this and what I worry about a little bit, and I know a little bit of a different topic, but I think that one of the unique things about the US, and you don't see this in a lot of other countries, uh, having studied lot- a lot of Latin American countries, is that, you know, the decade between 20 and 30 is a decade of true apprenticeship. In that all these companies and corporations and hospital systems, they're, they're really training people into their second third of life. Uh, so you spend the first decade of your life, hopefully, if you're lucky, you have good enough parents where you learn a lot, then school becomes a place you work, and then whatever your profession is, that third decade of life is incredibly important. Uh, and that's where you really build a lot of depth and learn on someone else's nickel and all this stuff. And I worry that we're gonna look back in 10 years and the US will have lost a sense of competitiveness because a lot of these people coming into the workforce are getting a fraction of the tutoring and coaching and experiences and intuition that they would have had. And 30, 40 years from now, we will have lost a lot of our edge because we stopped investing in the people and their creativity and their skill.
- PAPeter Attia
Meaning that's a downside of not being in an immersive-
- RERic Elias
Mm-hmm
- PAPeter Attia
... culture for your kids.
- RERic Elias
At least for that, for that, for that segment of the-
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah
- RERic Elias
... or that age of the population. Now, I would argue that, you know, I think what we learned in COVID is flexibility is king, and we should celebrate and look for flexibility. And we shouldn't be able to sacrifice raising kids if you're a working mother or working father to, you know, to the ex- the sacrifices that we made, or we don't have to travel crazy like we were traveling. So a lot of that is, you know, baked into, you know, changes in the, in, in the rules of engagement. But this, this is all a moment in time. You know, if we go into a recession, some of these habits may return. I hope we never lose the flexibility we gain. I don't love going to work every day at the same time and leaving at the end of the day. I love having a lot more freedom, and I think most people do.
- PAPeter Attia
Do we know if-- I mean, presumably there are certain jobs that work really well remotely-
- RERic Elias
Yeah
- 49:55 – 56:50
Ric’s dedication to philanthropy
- PAPeter Attia
Speaking of giving money away, uh, y- you've recently signed the Giving Pledge?
- RERic Elias
Mm. Yeah, about a year ago-
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah
- RERic Elias
... a year and a half ago.
- PAPeter Attia
So tell us a bit about that. I mean, I think people have heard of the Giving Pledge, but what, what, what does it mean and what type of people can sign it and what are, what are the implications of it?
- RERic Elias
You know, it was, it was not something that we did without a lot of trepidation. You know, we had, uh... It, it's something that really, um, Bill and Melinda Gates and Warren Buffett started, and it was, uh, around creating consciousness of the people that have had more luck than others in creating real wealth to, um, create a commitment and responsibility that you will give at least 50% of that wealth back. That's what the pledge is about. Um, and that you would-
- PAPeter Attia
So that's, is that, that's during your lifetime as well, correct?
- RERic Elias
Yeah. Or, or when you die.
- PAPeter Attia
Okay.
- RERic Elias
It doesn't matter.
- PAPeter Attia
Okay.
- RERic Elias
But you are, you know, committing that's, that's the pledge you sign, and there's hundreds of people that have signed it, you know, all over the world, right? So it's a bit of a community too where you learn how to give it in ways that, uh, reflect what you wanna do and all of that, so there's real value to being part of the community. Uh, when we first, you know, met and we, we had, we had the privilege of having dinner in Omaha with Warren Buffett, and they were trying to convince people at the time. Uh, our kids were still in high school, and we didn't want this burden because it, it, it does create negative energy around it, and there are, you know-
- PAPeter Attia
Why?
- RERic Elias
Eh, because a lot of people... Uh, honestly-
- PAPeter Attia
Meaning because it makes public the amount of wealth that you have?
- RERic Elias
Yeah, it, it is a threshold, uh, which at the time we were, we're a private company, so no one had known. But when The New York Times wrote an article and all this stuff, it, that kind of became public what it was. But it's just more I, I wanted to shelter them from anything that negative that may come out of that, and it's just not... They, they were too young. So we waited until they went to college. So when they went to college, um, they called back and said, "Hey, you said when your kids would go to college you'll do it." And so we, uh... When we did, and, and we're grateful we did, but, you know, we, we planned, we were planning to do this anyway. And we do it more as a, you know, as a, as a pledge that hopefully others realize that this only works if it works for everybody. It doesn't work if it works only for a few. And, you know, putting it back into the system at, in, in the core, that's what you're hoping to do.
- PAPeter Attia
Did you ever hear the podcast I did with John Arnold?
- RERic Elias
I did not.
- PAPeter Attia
Okay, so definitely one you'll wanna listen to. So John and Laura Arnold, um, who've also signed the Giving Pledge, are probably two of the most deliberate philanthropists I've ever met. Um, John, uh, was I think you could say hands down the most successful energy trader in the history of energy trading.
- RERic Elias
Wow.
- PAPeter Attia
Um, and he, um, he was a, he was a, um, a trader at Enron-
- RERic Elias
Hmm
- PAPeter Attia
... right out of college, and became their most successful trader. In fact, I, I... If I'm not mistaken, I think his personal book of business was generating a billion dollars a year for Enron.
- RERic Elias
Wow.
- PAPeter Attia
Just his own personal trades. Uh, when Enron imploded, you know, he was handed a severance check of something like $5 million, and he took every penny of it, put it into his fund, and went on a 10-year tear of unparalleled returns, something like 30% per month.
- RERic Elias
Oh gosh. [laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
Per month.
- RERic Elias
Okay. [laughs]
- PAPeter Attia
So-
- RERic Elias
All right
- 56:50 – 1:07:17
The Golden Door Scholars program aiming to help undocumented students with education and a future career
- RERic Elias
Um, as it relates to what we're doing, Peter, it's, you know, it keeps evolving. You know, we, we've now- we're really focused on this, um, you know, 16 to 24. Uh, that's our concentration on people that are under-resourced. And it is more than undocumented kids, although we just closed our applications again, and these kids are still in limbo, meaning, you know, there's, there's still, there's no path to anything. They just have this basically, uh, permit that gets renewed, but no one can get the permit anymore. So every year about 80,000 kids are graduating high school that, you know, have no ability to get a work permit. It's just insane. It, it is insane. And we-
- PAPeter Attia
So, so just so people understand, these are kids that came here undocumented, so they're born in another country. They've come here. They've grown up here, though. They've gone to high school here. They could go to college, but they wouldn't get financial aid because of course they're not residents. Um, so w- tell me what actually happens. What, how many of them say, "I have to go back to the country I was born in," versus, "I'm gonna get in college and somehow take a bunch of debt," uh, without any financial aid? Like w-
- RERic Elias
My, my guess is that 95% of them end up taking minimum wage jobs or kind of, um, jobs that are, you know, underground and, and stuff like that, like where we're p- where, where... Because you really, you know, now, there was a process there where you can get a DACA permit and there's, there's 650,000 of these kids that have DACA permits, so you can, you can work. Unfortunately about that, you know, in the last administration, DACA got rescinded, so there's no new DACA. So if you're a high school student and you're 17, you know, you can't get a, a work permit. So at that point, you were grow- you grew up here, your family's now here. Going back to your original country o- country of origin may happen, but it's really, really hard. You have no roots there. You have no resources. You may not even know the language for that matter, right? So I think that that's the, that's the craziness of this. We, we have invested-
- PAPeter Attia
Where, what's the distribution of where these kids are from? Do we have a sense of that?
- RERic Elias
Probably 90% Latin America. Um, probably two thirds of those Mexico just because of how they come in illegally.
- PAPeter Attia
Approximately. Yeah.
- RERic Elias
Um, but, you know, but you see them a lot from Southeast Asia and, and other places. We just, our, our yearly scholarship, uh, grant, we just got 1,200 applicants. Uh, literally closed last week. I believe over 300 of them have, uh, close to a 4.0 unweighted GPA.
- PAPeter Attia
So you're, you're providing scholarships for these kids to go to college because they don't need to be residents to go to college. They just need the funding.
- RERic Elias
The funding. Yeah, so you don't get in, you don't get federal financial aid, and about half the states don't give you in-state tuition. So it's almost like you would have to go to school as a, you know, to a private school and pay 60, 70 grand a year.
- PAPeter Attia
And is the investment you're making, Ric, that if these kids crush it in college, they're gonna get an H-1B visa on the back end or they're gonna, they're gonna land in some legitimate dual intent visa with a path to citizenship based on their education?
- RERic Elias
Well, until three years ago, because there were all DACA, they had a path to getting jobs, and there's many now that have jobs, right? We, we put w- we have 520 kids in the program. About half of them are graduating. Uh, but we keep thinking this is the last year, this is the last year because Congress, Congress just needs to pass a law, right? And, you know, they, there's plenty of reasons why it hasn't happened. But now the kids that are gonna start graduating next year, they're literally in limbo 'cause they can't get a work permit. So the H-1B visa and all of that can't do it. You can figure out a way to marry and then take that route. You can look as- for asylum, but those are all really, really hard paths now to do.
- PAPeter Attia
I didn't realize that. So you're telling me that if a kid goes through a scholarship... Oh, because they're not doing it on an F1.
- RERic Elias
That they're not DACA, right? DACA was, um, yeah, exactly.
- PAPeter Attia
I see. I see. I see.
- RERic Elias
That, that expired. It doesn't exist. That's the argument now is like, not only do you have the DACA kids in limbo, but now you're like, you know, this 80,000 kids every year that we're p- Well, and the crazy thing is we invest in them in primary school and secondary school. We don't ask the question when they go to our school systems. But then, you know, we invest all that money. L- why don't we make them taxpayers, right? [laughs] You know, we, we have a, an issue. There's like this massive decline of kids applying to college. We have all this college infrastructure with not enough students today. Why, why not educate them and make them pay taxes and give them a path, whatever that is, to citizenship? So, so to me, this is one of those things that makes absolutely no sense. But to ex- you know, what we did is we expanded that to, you know, after the George Floyd event, we, we as a company kind of rally around, we, we have to find opportunities into our inner cities and have used a lot of the same platform to broaden it. It's called Road to Hire, where Golden Door Scholars is a part of it. But here's something really cool. We, we start teaching coding, uh, in North Carolina, um, mostly Black and brown students, mostly from Title I schools. We go into the high schools and start teaching there. Uh, and then we do an apprenticeship program, and then we partner up with all the corporations in Charlotte. We are graduating more Black and brown kids with computer science expertise than the whole North Carolina system is now. This year, we have over 220 of these kids graduating. And they all have jobs on the other end. So we give them an apprenticeship, and then we have a whole live from-
- PAPeter Attia
Sorry, these are high school or college?
- RERic Elias
No, these are c- these are, um... They're not going to co- these are kids that are 22, 23, 24, mostly Black and brown kids, that we're teaching them how to code. We pay them to teach.
- PAPeter Attia
So they're high school grads that didn't go to college.
- RERic Elias
We give them a two-year apprenticeship where we're paying them on behalf of all this corporation, and it's working tremendously. Here's the crazy thing. This 21-year-old kid who was driving Uber, after two years of the apprenticeship, they are as competent in technology as someone who graduated from NC State.
- PAPeter Attia
Now, um, how do you think that can be scaled? What do you think is the magic in that that-
- RERic Elias
Yeah. Yeah, yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... 'cause to your, this is a great example of what we said earlier.
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
You can't solve that problem across the country-
- RERic Elias
Mm
- PAPeter Attia
... but can you provide a roadmap for that?
- RERic Elias
Well, there's, like, you start with the jobs. Like, and at the end of the day there's, you know, hundreds and thousands, hundreds of thousands of jobs that are unfilled because they don't have the skills. So pick this. By the way, it's the same thing with high school teachers today. There's a shortage of like, I believe it's 350,000 teaching, you know, vacancies that it's projected to be, but yet we pay 42,000 in most states and you can't... [chuckles] It's crazy, right? But, but keep on technology where there's, there's a big gap. The, the reason our syst- our bus- our, our model works in Charlotte and North Carolina is because it rides on the rails of the system. It literally partners with the county and it pa- and with the city, it partners with the schools, with the high school systems, all Title I. It connects to the, um, to the public school. So, like, there is a lot here, and then the corporations all basically offer a job on the other end. The key to this is to start with the job and then train into the job versus start with education and hope to get a job. So go fill the job that is not getting filled.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah.
- RERic Elias
Uh, and by the way, solve the diversity challenge that all these corporations have. Solve a lot of the other issues. But don't show up into the, you know, into, into the nonprofit arm of a corporation. Solve s- a problem that they really have. And that's the connection. So I think it, it will have to happen more at the city level. So there's a big initiative, uh, called 110 that a number of, like, high-profile CEOs have built to try to do this. It just takes a long, long time. And then my, my concern is when the economy turns, these are the kinds of things that get scrapped. Um, these are the kinds of things that people stop giving that job for or investing in, yet we go back to this, you know, negative spiral that, that we tend to have.
- PAPeter Attia
Obviously, you and I both are kinda cut from the same cloth, which is that of immigrants. And-
- 1:07:17 – 1:10:51
Ric’s journey in health and longevity
- PAPeter Attia
uh, let's pivot a little bit to talk about health, which is, um, you know, you're a very health-conscious guy. Um, but, uh, there's also been some changes, I, I think in your life over the past, I don't know. I, I think I've known you now for nine years. Um, basketball used to be kind of the only thing you did for exercise, which was great 'cause it kept you running around a court, but, you know, you're, you can be prone to injuries and things like that. Um, how would you describe overall kind of your mentality towards your, your health, your longevity? What changes have, have you made? Uh, one of my favorites, which I'm sure you'll get to, is y- your approach to your body weight, which cracks me up.
- RERic Elias
It is. Um, you know, I, I've realized that I wanna be here for as long as I can, and I wanna be here in as, you know, active of a way as I can. So I, I, I really, um... I'm committed to that. You know, it's this notion of time, but it's time on the other way. Um, so for the first time ever in the last, you know, especially in the last four years, I've gotten into the gym. And I have a trainer, and we go through it. I n- don't do the crazy stuff you do, but I would argue that I am so much stronger, from grip to balance to all the things, and, you know, I try my version of it because I, I don't consider myself to be an elite kind of [chuckles] athlete in that regard, but I feel so much better. Um, I transitioned from basketball, so I played my last official pickup game about three months ago, and I had a bunch of pros come, and it was great 'cause it's been such a great language for me, and so many relationships came through basketball. So much self-learning and self-awareness, and I now picked up tennis and, you know, uh, you know-
- PAPeter Attia
Well, now why did you do that? I mean, why, why did you completely stop playing your favorite sport?
- RERic Elias
Because I watch a lot of people my age, um, just blow an Achilles and a knee and all of that, and you know what? Those are all signals that we should listen to. I didn't wanna get to that place. And now the more I play, the more my knees were sore, and, you know, my body's talking to me. It actually talks to us all the time. And I wanted to leave on my terms.
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- RERic Elias
And I wanted to leave knowing that, you know, it, it served its purpose and it doesn't control me. And I love... I, I picked up tennis in the pandemic, and it's something that we're doing more as a family. But I, I love the apprenticeship, the struggle. So I have a coach. I go twice a week. It's a great workout. I get my heart rate to 130, get into zone two. I stay there for an hour. So I get a lot of acco- you know, multiple values and, and I'm really not good. And, you know, footwork is different. Everything is different, and I love the grinding of, you know, things, and it's a reminder of humility. Like, you know, everything that we now take for granted that we think we're so good at at some point was really, really hard. So I have now a list of things. Like I... You know, it, it's embarrassing. I'm Puerto Rican. I don't know how to dance salsa. Like, I can't die as the only Puerto Rican who can't die sal- uh, but dance salsa. So I have a list. I, I wanna, you know... Well, even last night you were grilling, and I'm like, "I used to grill a lot more." And so I have this notion now that I, I wanna keep learning things. I have a list of about eight or nine things. Uh, and eventually, if we end up living part of the years in another country, that language I wanna try to engage in, and it's just this notion that I don't wanna get old, but I wanna get... don't wanna get old, not by my age, but I don't wanna get old by stop, uh, stop learning.
- PAPeter Attia
So how... I wanna talk about that last game of pickup basketball.
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
How sad was that?
- RERic Elias
Zero.
- PAPeter Attia
Really?
- RERic Elias
No, I'm grateful for what I had, not because it ended. It's life. You know,
- 1:10:51 – 1:15:45
Letting go of guilt and loving yourself
- RERic Elias
I don't... You know, it, it kinda leads to the biggest self-growth I've had since the plane was in that middle bucket of, like, relationships. And what I realized, Peter, is that the most important relationship we have, the most important friend we have, is ourselves, and that unless we get that right, everything else will have a lot of friction. Everything else will be a version of, a, a b- a worse version of what it can be. And what I've realized as I study this is that we in society, and it's, I think it's almost every religion. I don't wanna say almost all be- and all because I don't know, but most religions that I know are anchored in some level of guilt, and guilt as a way of teaching us or as keeping us connected to something. And I've realized that guilt is the most useless emotion one can have, and I have spent the last five years just basically getting rid of guilt, to the point that I joke that it's a complex I no longer suffer from.
- PAPeter Attia
[chuckles]
- RERic Elias
I still have others, but I feel no guilt. And when you feel no guilt, what you realize is that you can change the dialogue that you have with yourself. I am super kind to myself. I constantly make mistakes. I constantly do things and I'm like, "Oh gosh, that wasn't right," or I don't show up the way I need to show up. But I f- I have, I, I have nothing but love for myself. I will say things, "Yeah, that wasn't your best. Okay. What... Next one it is," and-
- PAPeter Attia
So, so help me understand that. So, so you... It's hard for me to imagine you showing up as poorly as I can, but let's say you, y- you're in sort of a pissy mood. You come home.
- RERic Elias
Yeah, yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Y- you had asked your wife to do something earlier. It's not done.
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Instead of saying, "Hey sweetie, did you, did you have a chance to do that thing I asked you to do before?" you sort of snip at her.
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
I don't know if you've ever done that.
- RERic Elias
It happens, yes.
- PAPeter Attia
Okay. How do you... 'Cause it's, I think it's really easy to feel bad and feel shame for snapping at her, and then that actually impairs your next interaction.
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
So how, but how do you break that cycle?
- RERic Elias
I own it. I... Because it just takes a little bit of time. It's like, "I'm sorry, I just took out something on you that it was not on you. That was unfair. I hope you forgive me."
- PAPeter Attia
How long does it take you to man up to that?
- RERic Elias
It's not long. You know, maybe 20 minutes, 30 minutes.
- PAPeter Attia
Okay.
- RERic Elias
Like, like, like you're very self-aware-
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah, yeah, yeah
- RERic Elias
... like and, and you can read body language, you know. Like, you know, you can see that what you just said kind of cut through in a way, and then you're like, "Huh, what, what did I do?" But, but, but more importantly is I don't, I don't feel bad. Like, I don't, I don't carry this notion of like, "Oh my goodness, I, I just did this." Even, like, even if I do something that I didn't wanna do, I just said, "Okay." Just it's part of being human, it's part of growing up, it's part of learning, it's part of your humanity.
- PAPeter Attia
But do you think that that can only happen because you're able to immediately make amends?
- RERic Elias
I think it's a habit. I think we, we, we walk around-
- PAPeter Attia
So how do you break that habit then? I mean-
- RERic Elias
Yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... guilt is a pretty strong habit for a number of people, I'm sure.
- RERic Elias
Yeah. Um, it's like any habit. It may be worse than smoking. Uh, smoking is hard. I never smoked, but it's a really habit. But if you wanna break it, you break it. You know, your s- 98% of your thoughts are with yourself. So first of all, you gotta be very aware of all your thoughts, and you gotta be able to objectivize what you're hearing, and you have to be able to evaluate and say, "You know what? Is this productive? Is this helping me? Or am I doing this because I've always done it or because this is how my parents kind of related to it?" And I think the more we move away from the emotion of guilt and become... It, it becomes self-love. It becomes, you know, a notion like the safest place for us to be is with ourselves. Uh, and the kindest place to be is in our own heads, and there's no judgment, there's no anything. Like, life becomes so much simpler. And then that that you give yourself, you can give to others. 'Cause, you know, when we talk about purpose, you know, we're very lucky that we can impact people. Through your platform, you're impacting lots of us and, you know, I'm lucky that in my platform I can impact people. But you impact people every day with little things. How you show up to the coffee shop in the morning, the type of connection that you make, the taking time. Like, all of that is making an impact, and the more that you feel at peace inside, the more you wanna give it. So I am now addicted really to, like, good energy, and that doesn't mean it's maybe 95% of the time, but, oh, I love that place. And I give it, and I give it freely, and I give it with, you know, noth- expecting nothing in return. And to me, this is like the, the happy place. I live in a happy place.
- 1:15:45 – 1:18:42
The relationship between happiness and wealth
- PAPeter Attia
What do you think is the relationship between happiness and wealth? Um, do you think they're uncoupled? Do you think they're correlated positively? Do you think they're correlated negatively?
- RERic Elias
I think we decide what they are. You know, I think, you know, some of the happiest people in the world have no wealth, so they cannot be coupled. Now, wealth can give you a set of conveniences that allows you to solve for whatever your priorities are that, you know, might h- may, may heighten your ability to do that and therefore gives you more happiness. Or like in many people, you pursue wealth your whole life because that's what our society wants, and when you get there, you just feel so empty, and then you feel so guilty for all you sacrificed for it. And you're in the worst place, which is you got what you wanted, and then it was a mirage and it meant nothing. And there are so many people out there that feel like, "Oh my goodness, I was running the wrong race." You know, we talk a lot in life, Peter, around the best way to run a race. No one steps back and asks, "Am I running the right race?" And I think really focusing on, you know, reevaluating the race you're running. So when you ask me questions about, you know, Red Ventures in 10, 20 years, I made it very clear after my, you know, my plane event that I was gonna run a different race than everybody else. I wasn't looking for, you know, being public. I wasn't looking for being the wealthiest. I wasn't looking for, uh... My race was to enjoy the race. And to enjoy the race, I am crazy, so I love growing, I love being challenged, I love competing, but I, I, I give no power to anybody, and I try really hard not to take power away from anybody.
- PAPeter Attia
What do you think are the ways that, that people even inadvertently take power away from people?
- RERic Elias
You know, we as leaders, you know, can, can over-lead, uh, and not let other peoples have, you know, kind of the, the let them be celebrated and not take all the, all the, all the credit for things or, on the contrary, take responsibility for things that may not have been truly your responsibility. So I think, I think leaders have an ability to really, um, manage the, the kind of the power equation with intentionality. Um, I think how you treat somebody. Like, I think, uh, we talked about this in the last conversation, but I think the best way we can parent is by showing our kids how to treat strangers and how we, you know, give people respect no matter who they are or what they're doing, and how do we not give anybody too much respect just because society made them be something. You know, everybody puts their pants on the same way. Everybody has insecurities. Everybody has issues. You know, when you look at people as like, you know, we all are in this, like, imperfect journey with imperfections, it just makes it really kind of level field and, and, and simpler.
- 1:18:42 – 1:26:36
Playing the “infinite game,” staying true to oneself, and ignoring the negative
- PAPeter Attia
One of the really enjoyable... I mean, there were so many, but cer- certainly one of the enjoyable highlights of the Friends summit was when Simon Sinek got up and talked about finite versus infinite games, which of course is the name of a, a book.
- RERic Elias
Mm-hmm.
- PAPeter Attia
Um, maybe for folks that aren't familiar with that, I know it's a book that you love as well.
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Um, how do you implement, uh, that ethos into-
- RERic Elias
Yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... both your business and your, uh, your life?
- RERic Elias
You know, when Simon sent me an early book and said, "Hey, what do you think?" I... it was almost like he was writing what- It was in my brain. I just don't have an ability to write a book. But he wrote a book. I'm like... And he, he actually was rewriting a book by somebody that had come before, right? He had put it in m- more modern terms. Um, and it became kinda codifying a language that I really believe in, and that the core of the infinite game is that there's a bunch of principles of the game and how you play the game and all of that, but the core of the infinite game is that there's no winning, that the whole objective of the game is to stay in the game. The reality is, if you really read into it, the s- the real, real ultimate objective is not just to stay in the game, but to perpetuate the game. So what you're doing through your podcast, through your book that's coming out, through your kids, through everything else, is you're perpetuating the game, you know, the game that matters to you, and that's living with purpose 'cause you are now... You have a purpose of what you're doing. I feel the same way. So when you give up the winning or losing, when you don't look at things, you give away a lot of the, you know, the jealousy. Like, I don't feel jealousy. Like, I don't... Like, it's, it's, it's an emotion that I'm like, you know, I'm... Just because you have it doesn't mean I don't have it. Um, you know, maybe a little envious at times. Like, wow, I wish I had the knowledge that Peter has about this stuff, but zero jealousy, right? So the infinite game, it makes it really, really simple not to get caught up on winning or losing. Just makes it... And, like, just play the game. And therefore, we give away... We get away from back to this notion of like, oh, you know, I came in second, I came in third. And you and I have talked a lot about this kinda stuff, is like... And by the way, I don't think it affects the outcome at all [laughs] , you know? I think you end up-
- PAPeter Attia
Is, is that something that you have the luxury of playing because you run a private company, but if, if-
- RERic Elias
Mm
- PAPeter Attia
... if Red Ventures were a public company, would you be able to, to, to, to live by that? Or would quarterly earnings and other metrics that shareholders would be privy to and have an interest in change that? In other words, do, do public markets demand winning?
- RERic Elias
I, I, I think by and large, yes. Now, you could argue that Jeff Bezos at Amazon forever never made money even though the public markets were demanding that he did this, and he basically said, "No, I'm not. I'm gonna continue to lose money, and you're either gonna like my story or not." Um, you could, you could argue that Elon Musk is playing the infinite game in many ways with the decisions he's making, and even, even Mark Zuckerberg.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah, with Meta, for sure.
- RERic Elias
You know? Like with Meta. Like, you know, he clearly [laughs] has lost-
- PAPeter Attia
He's taking a short-term beating
- RERic Elias
... you know, s- 75% of the value of the company. So I think you can do it. You just have to have the temperament and the stomach-
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah
- RERic Elias
... to be unpopular. And you know what? The best way to be... to, to not be unpopular is not to read. I don't read anything about us, about me. Like, I... It doesn't matter. The opinion of a stranger has zero value to me.
- PAPeter Attia
Hmm.
- RERic Elias
Now, if you call me and say, "Dude, I, I heard you say this or do this, and that feels like not you," I will listen 'cause I know that you know me and you care. So, like, I have no desire to be popular with people I don't know. I want to re- be respected by people that I care about.
- PAPeter Attia
That's an amazing lesson. That, to me, is a very difficult feature of living in the world today, right?
- RERic Elias
Mm-hmm.
- PAPeter Attia
It's do you, do you look at what people are saying about you on social media? Do you read comments?
- RERic Elias
Do you?
- PAPeter Attia
Um, not very often, but a little bit.
- RERic Elias
Mm-hmm.
- PAPeter Attia
Um, I... A- again, I, I, I would say I'm probably 95% compliant with the notion of ignoring it, and when I do read it, I'm rarely perturbed by it, largely for the reasons that you put forth-
- RERic Elias
Yeah. Yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... which is you understand that it's kind of irrelevant.
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- 1:26:36 – 1:31:24
Speculating on the meaning of success, the drivers of greatness, and the value of struggle
- PAPeter Attia
I saw a really interesting clip. Um, I'm sure we'll be able to find it for the show notes. It was Arnold Schwarzenegger, a very young Arnold Schwarzenegger, so I'm guessing he would've been late '70s, early '80s, so had, had al- had already accomplished a lot, but obviously had more to accomplish, right? This is before he would've become the world's biggest movie star and go on to become the governor. Um, but he was being asked, and I think it was, like, Barbara Walters or... But it was, it was some, you know, highbrow interview, so it must've been the '80s by this point. Um, w- what accounts for your greatness?
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Um, a- and he sort of said, "Look, um, t- for, to have this level," he's referring to his own level of drive, "it, it must come from a place of hardship." And it, it, y- you know, he, he more, much more eloquently than this described-
- RERic Elias
Yeah, yeah, yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... that basically everything he has comes from a singular focus of escaping and being better than-
- RERic Elias
Yeah, yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... and improving. And he said, "Look, the reality of it is kids who don't come from this, if your kids don't come from this level of deprivation-
- RERic Elias
Yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... um, they can't be great. They can be very well-adjusted, and that's really the best thing you can hope for them, but they can't be great." And, and I really thought about it a lot, and I was like, that's really inter- there's a lot to reflect on there.
- RERic Elias
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
Because first of all, there's nothing wrong with being well-adjusted.
- RERic Elias
Yeah.
- PAPeter Attia
It could be a perfectly reasonable goal-
- RERic Elias
Yeah
- PAPeter Attia
... for kids who come from privilege, uh, you know, kids who have, are never to want anything, to be perfectly well-adjusted. But he's arguing that's the best case scenario.
- RERic Elias
But great in what?
- PAPeter Attia
Well, I-
- RERic Elias
Great at lifting weights? Great at being a movie star?
- PAPeter Attia
Being, being exceptional.
- RERic Elias
Like, the, the-
- PAPeter Attia
Yes. Being-
- RERic Elias
Be- be- be- so that's different, because-
- PAPeter Attia
That's right
- RERic Elias
... you can be a great human being.
- PAPeter Attia
Yeah.
- RERic Elias
You can have a great... Like, being the elite 1% of something has a max amount of, uh, it has a huge amount of tax on other things.
- PAPeter Attia
Absolutely.
- RERic Elias
And, and-
- PAPeter Attia
And I don't think... Look, I mean, that's the irony, I guess, of his life, is-
- RERic Elias
Yeah
Episode duration: 1:31:24
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Transcript of episode qb4_WiSFHvU
