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Peter Attia MDSpecial episode with Dax Shepard: F1 and the 30th anniversary of Ayrton Senna’s death
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CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 2:21
Dax's view on living big versus living long
Dax Shepard reflects on how people often treat longevity as the only measure of life. Using Paul Walker and Senna as examples, he says he would choose a shorter life full of experience over a long, quiet one and accepts the risks of his own dangerous pursuits.
- •Dax says many people treat duration as the singular measure of life
- •He argues Paul Walker packed in far more experience than most people do
- •He is not saccharine about death and sees the sadness as belonging to those left behind
- •He would pick living like Senna to 34 over reaching 105
- •He accepts the consequences of his own dangerous behaviors
- 2:21 – 9:33
Peter's path into motorsports and Drive to Survive
Peter explains how growing up in Canada, with Molson tickets from his dad's restaurant business and 1980s race culture, got him into motorsport. Dax describes his own car-obsessed family. They then debate Drive to Survive, with Peter preferring the early seasons.
- •Motorsport was popular in Canada, with the Montreal F1 race and the Toronto IndyCar race
- •Peter's dad's restaurant business brought free tickets through Molson
- •Dax's parents and stepdad worked in cars, but he was never drawn to racing until later
- •Peter first loved MotoGP and became an F1 convert through Drive to Survive
- •Dax likes the show for the drama between 14th and 8th place; Peter thinks the later seasons lean too much on off-track drama
- 9:33 – 14:27
F1's deadly past and the golden era of the 80s
The conversation turns to how many drivers died in F1 in the past compared with today. Peter then describes the late-80s and early-90s era as one of deep talent and beautiful cars, comparing it to boxing's golden age.
- •From the mid-1960s to the early 1980s, two to four drivers died per year on average
- •Dax doubts the sport would be tolerated today if drivers died at that rate
- •Peter watched in the late '80s, often at odd hours on delay
- •The era had Lauda, Prost, Mansell, Piquet and Senna, much like boxing's Hearns, Hagler, Duran and Leonard
- •The 500-kilo cars made over 1,000 horsepower in qualifying
- 14:27 – 24:45
Senna's qualifying record and the 1988 Monaco legend
Peter says qualifying is the most remarkable thing about Senna, who took 65 poles in 161 races. He recounts the 1988 Monaco qualifying margin over Prost, the crash while leading the race, and the 1984 Monaco drive in the Toleman.
- •Senna died in his 161st race, with 65 poles
- •In 1988 he out-qualified teammate Prost by 1.47 seconds at Monaco in the MP4/4
- •His lap went unrecorded on TV because he was already on pole
- •He crashed while leading by about 56 seconds and hid in his apartment for hours
- •In 1984 his Toleman charged through the rain until the race was stopped, giving him second place
- 24:45 – 31:53
Senna's persona, Brazil and his legacy of giving
Dax asks what appeals to people about Senna beyond the records. Peter explains how much he learned about Senna as a person after his death and what Senna meant to Brazil, including the rivalry with Piquet and Senna's quiet giving to education.
- •Peter learned about the man mostly after Senna's death, through reading and people close to him
- •He compares May 1st, 1994 in Brazil to JFK or 9/11 for Americans
- •Japan holds Senna dear because of his Honda-powered titles
- •Piquet was jealous of how loved Senna was
- •Senna earned about a quarter of a billion dollars and put money into education in Brazil
- 31:53 – 45:24
The Imola weekend of 1994 and the lead-up to the race
Peter lays out the 1994 Imola weekend: Barrichello's crash, Ratzenberger's death, and Senna's anger at the marshals. He explains Senna's move to a troubled Williams and the pressure of a zero-point start against Schumacher.
- •Barrichello crashed on Friday and Ratzenberger was killed on Saturday
- •Peter says the race should have been canceled under Italian law after the death
- •Senna was angry at being reprimanded for going to Ratzenberger's crash site
- •The 1994 Williams was undrivable after active suspension was banned, and Senna had zero points to Schumacher's 20
- •Senna told Joseph he felt unsafe but had to race for Brazil, and he agreed with Lauda to revive the Drivers' Association
- 45:24 – 51:47
Why Senna fights for wins: Prost, Barry Sanders and ranking greats
Dax and Peter discuss Senna's disagreeable, win-or-nothing character compared with Prost's calculating style. Peter uses Barry Sanders as an analogy for greatness beyond statistics, and they debate Senna, Schumacher, Max and Fangio across eras.
- •Dax compares Senna to Howard Roark in The Fountainhead
- •Prost played the long game while Senna cared only about winning
- •Senna described his Monaco crash as part of a perfect drive, chasing perfection rather than rivals
- •Peter likens Senna to Barry Sanders, who was great despite lacking the records
- •Peter thinks the top three are Senna, Schumacher and possibly Max, and notes the difficulty of placing Fangio
- 51:47 – 58:52
Throttle stabbing, car control and technical feedback
Dax asks about Senna's habit of stabbing the throttle, and Peter explains the turbo-lag theory and why it remains puzzling. They discuss how hard the cars were to drive and Senna's engineering feedback, along with their own difficulty articulating car behavior.
- •Senna stabbed the throttle on corner exit, possibly to beat turbo lag, yet kept doing it in naturally aspirated cars
- •Cars of that era had less downforce, no power steering and manual clutch gearboxes
- •Senna ran within three inches of Monaco walls, one-handed
- •He helped Honda develop the NSX and gave detailed feedback
- •Both hosts say it is hard to describe car behavior as precisely as engineers need
- 58:52 – 1:09:19
The fatal laps: safety car, tires and Tamburello
Peter returns to race day: the early safety car, cold tires, and why tire contact matters so much in F1. He describes Senna's very fast sixth lap through Tamburello on the racing line that others avoided, and the Austrian flag found in his car.
- •A first-lap crash brought out a slow safety car, so lap six was the first flying lap on cold tires
- •Dax and Peter note all F1 technology must pass through four rubber tires
- •Senna took the bumpy racing line through Tamburello while Hill and Schumacher stayed off it
- •His sixth lap was among the fastest of the race despite full fuel and cold tires
- •He carried an Austrian flag to honor Ratzenberger
- 1:09:19 – 1:16:31
What caused the crash: Peter's oversteer theory
Peter explains why he now rejects the steering-column-failure explanation and believes the car bottomed out, oversteered, and was caught by counter-steering. He discusses the Williams FW16, Adrian Newey's view, the Italian court finding, and the telemetry and steering wheel evidence.
- •The Italian courts found a design failure, but the statute of limitations had expired
- •The steering column had been extended and the shaft narrowed to fit Senna's preference
- •Peter believes the car bottomed out and lost rear grip, and that Senna counter-steered before leaving the road
- •Telemetry shows Senna on max brake before hitting the wall
- •Newey's book How to Build a Car is cited as supporting this view
- 1:16:31 – 1:20:41
The impact, the aftermath and Sid Watkins
Peter describes the concrete wall at Tamburello with a ravine behind it, the suspension rod that punctured the helmet, and Senna's death. He relays Sid Watkins' advice to retire and Joseph Leberer's account of the hospital.
- •The wall could not be moved because of a ravine, and it was bare concrete
- •Gerhard Berger had crashed there in 1991, and drivers had pushed for changes
- •A suspension rod punctured the helmet, and Senna was brain-dead at the track
- •Watkins reportedly urged Senna to retire the night before
- •Joseph found no mark on Senna's body apart from the head trauma
- 1:20:41 – 1:28:44
Dying in your prime, risk and family
Dax asks Peter about athletes dying young, and Peter says Senna was at his peak. Dax returns to his view of risk, and they discuss Enzo Ferrari's lap-time discounts for family milestones. Dax describes how racing gives him presence and how a Fontana race changed his thinking.
- •Peter links the legends of James Dean, Marilyn Monroe and JFK to dying in their prime
- •Peter says Senna peaked in 1993 and was truly at his best
- •Ferrari reportedly discounted lap times when drivers got a girlfriend, married, or had kids
- •Dax says track riding gives him complete presence, unlike lane-splitting where he thinks of his daughters
- •A Fontana race and a driver's death led Dax to step away from racing for a time
- 1:28:44 – 1:32:33
Senna's lasting impact on safety and the Senna Foundation
Peter argues Senna still matters through his foundation and the safety changes his death prompted. They compare it to Earnhardt's death and the HANS device in NASCAR.
- •Senna had wanted to formalize his giving, and his sister Viviane set up the foundation
- •The Senna Foundation has given what Peter says is over half a billion dollars to education in Brazil
- •His death changed F1 safety instantly because the sport had grown so much
- •Dax compares it to Earnhardt's death and the HANS device
- •Peter notes Earnhardt was interviewed about Senna's death the same day
- 1:32:33 – 1:48:48
Why we pick our favorites: Lewis, Max and the 2021 season
Dax asks why neither of them is drawn to Lewis Hamilton, which leads into their personal paths back to F1 and Dax's love of Max's single-mindedness and the 2021 title fight. Peter explains how the driver-car balance has shifted from about 50/50 in the '80s to roughly 75/25 or 80/20 today.
- •Peter stopped following F1 after 1997 and returned in Vettel's years; he once held Schumacher partly responsible for Senna's death
- •Dax admires Lewis but feels he doesn't fight, unlike Rossi or Max
- •Dax says Max won't give Checo help because he has to maximize every race
- •They argue the better driver beat the better car in 2021
- •Peter says the driver-car split was about 50/50 in the '80s and is now about 75/25 or 80/20
- 1:48:48 – 2:01:19
Today's grid: fastest drivers, Ferrari and driver personalities
Peter ranks Max first and Alonso second among current drivers, and they discuss Lando, Charles, Checo and Ricciardo. They go on to Lewis moving to Ferrari, Alpine's struggles, and Dax's stories about Daniel Ricciardo and Max.
- •Peter picks Max fastest by a wide margin and Alonso second
- •Dax is unsure whether Charles or Lando is faster, and Peter doubts the young drivers will all win titles
- •They question Lewis's move to Ferrari, with Peter more confident in Mercedes under Toto
- •Both families have signed Ricciardo and Gasly hats, and Dax calls Ricciardo remarkably thoughtful
- •Dax says Max's public persona differs from the shy, sweet person described by those who know him
- 2:01:19 – 2:14:01
Racing psychology, motorcycles, drifting and a hobby debate
Peter describes a bad track day where one lockup snowballed into mistakes, showing how mental the sport is. Dax urges him to try motorcycles, and they trade stories about drifting with Sebastian Vettel and Dax's boredom in his E63 wagon after motorcycle days.
- •Peter says Max's superpower is that nothing phases him
- •A lockup left Peter second-guessing his braking all day
- •Dax says motorcycles force a single way through a corner
- •Peter's wife shut down the idea of a motorcycle
- •Vettel learned lead-follow drifting tandems in about three hours at Texas Drift Academy
- 2:14:01 – 2:23:06
Senna gifts, naming the kids and the Senna documentary
Dax gives Peter Senna memorabilia from Etsy, including cups and a replica helmet from the season Senna died. They discuss Peter's wife and how his son came to be named after Senna, Dax's kids' names, and the documentary.
- •Dax gives Peter Senna cups and a replica helmet from the 1994 season
- •Peter's youngest son is named after Senna, and his wife's main worry was pronunciation
- •Peter's pitch of Secretariat as a name was a decoy; his other son has Feynman as a middle name
- •Dax explains how Lincoln and Delta got their names
- •Both recommend the Senna documentary, which Dax says is not just a racing story
- 2:23:06 – 2:28:19
Specialists, Max's devotion and Rossi's attitude to risk
Dax talks about Grant and his fascination with specialists, which leads to Max's obsession with sim racing. Dax recounts Rossi's near-miss at age 44 and his view that he would be in danger somewhere regardless.
- •Dax would rather be pretty good at many things, and is fascinated by single-minded specialists
- •Max sim races for hours right after winning a Grand Prix
- •Peter wonders what Max thinks of Senna and where he sees his own place
- •Peter thinks Max and Alonso will race somewhere forever
- •Rossi, in his last season, said he would be doing something equally dangerous if not racing
- 2:28:19 – 2:41:39
What if Senna had lived, and visiting Interlagos and his grave
Peter imagines Senna winning four more titles with Williams or possibly entering politics. They finish on cross-era comparisons, the Senna cemetery and Interlagos visits, Senna's faith, and thirty years since his death.
- •Peter thinks Senna would likely have won 1994 to 1997 in the Williams, reaching seven titles or eight counting the one he says was stolen
- •Dax says the pole record raised his assessment of Senna
- •Peter says Senna himself named Fullerton and Fangio as the greatest
- •Senna's grave is a simple plaque in São Paulo, and Peter calls visiting it nearly a religious experience
- •Peter still remembers the day Senna died in vivid detail
