Special episode with Dax Shepard: F1 and the 30th anniversary of Ayrton Senna’s death

1. 0:00 – 2:30

   Intro

   1. DSDax Shepard0:00

      I find that I sometimes am talking to people, and the singular measure of life for a lot of people is just longevity.

   2. PAPeter Attia0:08

      Right, it's just duration.

   3. DSDax Shepard0:10

      Duration. And I look at some of these people. I remember when Paul Walker died, and this is probably-

   4. PAPeter Attia0:15

      Did you know Paul?

   5. DSDax Shepard0:16

      I never met Paul. Um, shockingly, 'cause we were, like-

   6. PAPeter Attia0:21

      It's amazing given your overall

   7. DSDax Shepard0:22

      ... yeah, intersecting-

   8. PAPeter Attia0:22

      Yeah

   9. DSDax Shepard0:22

      ... car cultury stuff, it seems like I would have. But n- I have friends that were friends with him and adored him. But, [inhales] you know, when he died, obviously it's, it's super sad, but there was some part of my brain that was like, if you were to have, um, measured somehow the amount of experience he had had on planet Earth-

   10. PAPeter Attia0:44

       Yeah

   11. DSDax Shepard0:44

       ... in that period, I would argue very, very few people had lived a bigger life, or more of a life, or had traveled more and met more people and had more experiences and had more heightened everything. So, you know, what I would not want is a very boring, subtle existence with no mountains and valleys for 130 years. [laughs] That just doesn't appeal to me at all.

   12. PAPeter Attia1:10

       Yeah.

   13. DSDax Shepard1:10

       And then I also am not overly saccharine about death in general, in that I always remember, I remind myself it's sad for the people left behind. It's not... I mean, if I believed in a higher power and stuff, maybe I would have a different view. But for me, it's like [inhales] you're alive and then you're not, and you don't know you're not, so there's no period of being sad that you're no longer alive. So when I just put all these things into evaluating, I don't know that I'm as sad as other people are, 'cause I think a lot of these people ended up living 10X the life of someone that lives to be 110. And then if I, if you presented me with the options, if I live like Senna to 34 [swallows] or I live like some of my neighbors growing up to 105, I would pick Senna's. I, I, I think I would. And I even, I engage in a lot of behaviors that are dangerous and, and people scratch their head at. And I just feel like this is the only version I want of it, so whatever the consequences, I am knowledgeable of it. I accept it. [upbeat music]

   14. PAPeter Attia2:21

       Hey, everyone, welcome to the Drive podcast. I'm your host, Peter Attia.

2. 2:30 – 6:34

   Peter’s interest in motorsports began as a child

   1. DSDax Shepard2:30

      Oh, this is delightful.

   2. PAPeter Attia2:31

      Yeah, man. Great to have you here.

   3. DSDax Shepard2:32

      I'm in your house. Yeah. You asked me to come do a Senna episode. I was very forthcoming and said I'm a 3 out of 10 on Senna. But the reason I wanted to do it is so that I could pry and figure out what's really going on with the Senna obsession.

   4. PAPeter Attia2:49

      Yes.

   5. DSDax Shepard2:49

      Yeah. And I'm curious how much you're aware of it or not. [laughs]

   6. PAPeter Attia2:53

      Probably not. It's probably at this point sort of like the David Foster Wallace fish and water thing.

   7. DSDax Shepard2:58

      Mm-hmm.

   8. PAPeter Attia2:58

      Like, it's the water I swim in.

   9. DSDax Shepard3:00

      Yeah.

   10. PAPeter Attia3:00

       So I don't, I don't actually notice that I'm obsessed with Senna.

   11. DSDax Shepard3:05

       Do you remember what year it started? Did it start with the doc?

   12. PAPeter Attia3:09

       No, no, no, no. I, I mean, I remember growing up. Like, so, so, it, it, when you grow up in Canada, for whatever reason, motorsport's actually pretty popular in Canada.

   13. DSDax Shepard3:17

       Yeah.

   14. PAPeter Attia3:17

       And I don't know why. It might be because of Gilles Villeneuve.

   15. DSDax Shepard3:21

       Right.

   16. PAPeter Attia3:21

       Um, although I don't have any real recollection of Villeneuve. So Villeneuve died in 1982. I was nine years old. But I, you know, for whatever reason, like, I don't even recall his death-

   17. DSDax Shepard3:31

       Right

   18. PAPeter Attia3:31

       ... being on my radar. But, um, IndyCar was incredibly popular, and F1 was incredibly popular.

   19. DSDax Shepard3:38

       Okay.

   20. PAPeter Attia3:39

       Um, and-

   21. DSDax Shepard3:39

       'Cause you always had the Montreal race.

   22. PAPeter Attia3:41

       You have Montreal for F1, and you always had motorsport, you always had the Toronto, uh, like, the IndyCar and Toronto race.

   23. DSDax Shepard3:47

       Right.

   24. PAPeter Attia3:47

       And because my dad was in the restaurant business, um, meaning he was buying beer by the truckload, you, and Molson was, like, the beer in Canada, you know, we would always kind of, like-

   25. DSDax Shepard3:59

       They would give you tickets and stuff

   26. PAPeter Attia4:00

       ... they would give you tickets or something like that.

   27. DSDax Shepard4:01

       Yeah.

   28. PAPeter Attia4:01

       And so it kind of, yeah. So, um, [lips smack] so, and, and also it was-

   29. DSDax Shepard4:05

       Did you go to races?

   30. PAPeter Attia4:06

       Yes. And, and, and Toronto was, uh, pardon me. I was gonna say, so the, the '80s, right, which is sort of when I came of age, I also think that there's just [lips smack] I don't know, I just think there are some boys that get really into cars.
3. 6:34 – 14:32

   The drama and dangers of F1

   1. PAPeter Attia6:34

      Would watch F1 occasionally. I'm like, "This is the stupidest sport." They don't ever pass.

   2. DSDax Shepard6:39

      Yeah.

   3. PAPeter Attia6:39

      Nothing happens. And then I'm a Drive to Survive convert. Like, I watch that-

   4. DSDax Shepard6:45

      Now, have you watched the last couple seasons?

   5. PAPeter Attia6:47

      Yes, I've watched every-

   6. DSDax Shepard6:48

      And do you think it's horrible?

   7. PAPeter Attia6:49

      No, I love it.

   8. DSDax Shepard6:50

      Oh my God.

   9. PAPeter Attia6:51

      I think it's-

   10. DSDax Shepard6:51

       You hate it.

   11. PAPeter Attia6:51

       I can't, I can't stand how bad it is.

   12. DSDax Shepard6:54

       Oh, my Lord. What is the-- What's your issue?

   13. PAPeter Attia6:56

       It's boring as hell. It's like a bunch of-

   14. DSDax Shepard6:59

       Well, what did the f-

   15. PAPeter Attia6:59

       ... nonsense you don't care about.

   16. DSDax Shepard7:01

       What did the first seasons have that the latter ones don't have?

   17. PAPeter Attia7:04

       Um, I mean, I think that the first three seasons still kind of focused on the racing.

   18. DSDax Shepard7:12

       Uh-huh.

   19. PAPeter Attia7:13

       And I feel like they're trying a little too hard now to make it about the off-track drama.

   20. DSDax Shepard7:19

       The reality show-ness of it?

   21. PAPeter Attia7:20

       Yeah, yeah.

   22. DSDax Shepard7:21

       Yeah. Well-

   23. PAPeter Attia7:22

       I think the per- I think the people are... I think some people, I think there are clearly some people who, you know, like Max. I love Max's approach to it, which is, "I don't give a shit."

   24. DSDax Shepard7:30

       Yeah, yeah, "I'm not participating." [laughs]

   25. PAPeter Attia7:31

       Like, "Get out of my way." Um, but then there's, there's too many people who are trying a little too hard. I won't name names, but-

   26. DSDax Shepard7:36

       Sure, sure. You were just close to one of them recently.

   27. PAPeter Attia7:39

       [laughs]

   28. DSDax Shepard7:39

       Um, but I, the, so the first season, I was initially, I was like, "Hold on a second. Mercedes' budget is $400 or $500 million a year?" That's the first thing that really got me, where I was like, "Oh, this is, this is enormous on a scale that I didn't even know was possible."

   29. PAPeter Attia7:57

       Yeah.

   30. DSDax Shepard7:58

       Relative to NASCAR, Indy or MotoGP, anything, it's 20x the budget of any other racing. So I was like, "Oh, that's really fascinating." Then finding out about the aerodynamicists and how relevant they are and it, and just how high-tech it is, all that interests me. I love the technical aspect of that sport enormously. What I think this show still does great is it really shows you the drama that's existing between 14th and 8th place, which when I'm watching the normal season, I'm largely missing that.
4. 14:32 – 26:58

   What made Senna special

   1. PAPeter Attia14:32

      there are many things that made Senna special, but his qualifying, uh, is the most remarkable thing.

   2. DSDax Shepard14:39

      Yeah.

   3. PAPeter Attia14:39

      And so if you, if you look at his record, right? So by today's standards, Senna wasn't around very long, right? There were m- most of the g- most of the drivers on the F1 grid today have already had more races than Senna did when he died.

   4. DSDax Shepard14:49

      Yeah.

   5. PAPeter Attia14:50

      He died in his 161st race.

   6. DSDax Shepard14:52

      Okay.

   7. PAPeter Attia14:53

      So Max is only 26 years old. He's long past that number of races, right?

   8. DSDax Shepard14:56

      Yeah.

   9. PAPeter Attia14:56

      Lewis is at more than 2X that number of races.

   10. DSDax Shepard14:59

       Right.

   11. PAPeter Attia15:00

       And yet Senna's qualifying percentage, right, to, to how many times was he on pole position in there, nobody's within a country mile.

   12. DSDax Shepard15:08

       He's 65 poles.

   13. PAPeter Attia15:09

       Yeah, in 161 races.

   14. DSDax Shepard15:11

       That kind of framed it for me because, again, I only know that he won three titles.

   15. PAPeter Attia15:15

       Mm-hmm.

   16. DSDax Shepard15:16

       And-

   17. PAPeter Attia15:17

       Technically four. I'm gonna explain to you why. He had one stolen from him, but yeah.

   18. DSDax Shepard15:20

       Yeah, with the, um, not turning around in the-

   19. PAPeter Attia15:22

       Yeah

   20. DSDax Shepard15:22

       ... turnoff area. Um, yeah, sure, four. Um, but obviously Schumacher's record, Lewis's record, some of these records, um, it begs the question, why is this the guy everyone's so obsessed with? Because he, what, had 10 years in?

   21. PAPeter Attia15:38

       Yeah. He died-

   22. DSDax Shepard15:39

       10 years.

   23. PAPeter Attia15:39

       Yeah, died ... 10 years.

   24. DSDax Shepard15:40

       But when I saw that 65 poles stat, I was like, okay, that's very telling. That says a lot. But before you explain that to me, I wanna know, it would appear that, and this is another thing I've come to love about F1, is P1 in qualifying to P20 is often three-tenths of a second?

   25. PAPeter Attia16:04

       Usually a little bit more. Um-

   26. DSDax Shepard16:09

       What ... But l- let's just say-

   27. PAPeter Attia16:11

       But yes, it's, it's very, very tight

   28. DSDax Shepard16:12

       ... and, and, and within the top five-

   29. PAPeter Attia16:13

       Yes

   30. DSDax Shepard16:13

       ... it's o- it's the f- first three are often in the hundredths of seconds.
5. 26:58 – 31:17

   What Senna meant to Brazilians

   1. PAPeter Attia26:58

      And so, so just to give you an example of that, like, you know, as you know, my youngest son is named after him.

   2. DSDax Shepard27:03

      Yeah.

   3. PAPeter Attia27:04

      Any time we encounter a person from Brazil who discovers that fact-

   4. DSDax Shepard27:09

      Yeah

   5. PAPeter Attia27:09

      ... it's like everything changes.

   6. DSDax Shepard27:12

      Come into my house for food.

   7. PAPeter Attia27:14

      Yeah, yeah.

   8. DSDax Shepard27:15

      Yeah.

   9. PAPeter Attia27:15

      And, and, and, and, and for someone in Brazil, if you're over the age of 35 today, you, you know, you take JFK, 9/11, uh, you know, square-

   10. DSDax Shepard27:29

       The Challenger

   11. PAPeter Attia27:30

       ... yeah.

   12. DSDax Shepard27:31

       Yeah.

   13. PAPeter Attia27:31

       You squ- That's what May 1st, 1994 was.

   14. DSDax Shepard27:35

       Uh.

   15. PAPeter Attia27:35

       Because the entire country every Sunday would stop to watch this.

   16. DSDax Shepard27:39

       Yeah.

   17. PAPeter Attia27:39

       It's not like the NFL here, where a lot of people watch it. No, no, no, no, no. This was the religion.

   18. DSDax Shepard27:45

       Yes.

   19. PAPeter Attia27:46

       The country stops.

   20. DSDax Shepard27:48

       Yeah.

   21. PAPeter Attia27:48

       Everybody watches for that.

   22. DSDax Shepard27:49

       There was a Brazilian god on planet Earth.

   23. PAPeter Attia27:51

       That's right.

   24. DSDax Shepard27:52

       Yeah.

   25. PAPeter Attia27:53

       Yeah. In fact, it is. It, and because of the religious culture of Brazil, right, it's a, you know, it's a Catholic country, obviously.

   26. DSDax Shepard28:00

       Yeah.

   27. PAPeter Attia28:00

       There's so much religious symbolism.

   28. DSDax Shepard28:02

       Yeah.

   29. PAPeter Attia28:02

       And, and I think he is the closest thing to a deity for, for, for the people there. And by the way, you know, a close second is Japan.

   30. DSDax Shepard28:09

       Oh, really?
6. 31:17 – 45:03

   The cause of the fatal crash

   1. PAPeter Attia31:18

      I, I don't believe the most commonly held, um, view of his death, which was that it resulted from the steering column failure. I actually don't think that's what happened.

   2. DSDax Shepard31:27

      Oh, really?

   3. PAPeter Attia31:28

      No, I don't.

   4. DSDax Shepard31:28

      You have a different take.

   5. PAPeter Attia31:30

      I do have a different take.

   6. DSDax Shepard31:31

      Oh.

   7. PAPeter Attia31:31

      Although I used to for many years, for probably 26 years, I believed that he died because the steering column failed.

   8. DSDax Shepard31:40

      I thought I had heard that, like, is it an aileron? What is the piece that was on the suspension, that that had come off.

   9. PAPeter Attia31:47

      Oh, I'm sorry. That's what actually killed him.

   10. DSDax Shepard31:49

       Oh, okay [laughs] .

   11. PAPeter Attia31:49

       That's not in dispute.

   12. DSDax Shepard31:50

       Okay, okay.

   13. PAPeter Attia31:51

       Yes, yes, yes. The suspension-

   14. DSDax Shepard31:52

       No, just why did he crash to begin with?

   15. PAPeter Attia31:53

       Why did he crash? Yes.

   16. DSDax Shepard31:54

       Okay.

   17. PAPeter Attia31:55

       Yes.

   18. DSDax Shepard31:55

       And people have said, I don't even know this, that the steering, steering column failed?

   19. PAPeter Attia31:59

       Yeah, so, um, we should c- well, yeah. So, so the, the conventional view, the m- the widely held view of Senna's death... So maybe just to tell people how, the, the circumstances of the death. So he was in a race called Imola-

   20. DSDax Shepard32:14

       Mm-hmm

   21. PAPeter Attia32:14

       ... which took place, um, on a horrible, horrible weekend, April 29th, April 30th, and May 1st, 1994. Um, going back to something we talked about earlier, there had not been a death in F1 since Gilles Villeneuve died in 1982.

   22. DSDax Shepard32:30

       Okay.

   23. PAPeter Attia32:31

       Now, 12 years later, on that Friday during the first practice, another Brazilian driver, Rubens Barrichello, has a brutal crash.

   24. DSDax Shepard32:43

       He's just laying in the fucking straightaway-

   25. PAPeter Attia32:45

       Well-

   26. DSDax Shepard32:45

       ... that one

   27. PAPeter Attia32:45

       ... what's, what's amazing is he l- he was only concussed and split open, but actually survived. Senna was shaken up.

   28. DSDax Shepard32:53

       Yeah.

   29. PAPeter Attia32:54

       Senna was like-

   30. DSDax Shepard32:54

       That was in practice?
7. 45:03 – 48:22

   Why Peter is obsessed with Senna

   1. PAPeter Attia45:03

      Um, so you ask me, like, why do I, why am I obsessed with this guy? It's kind of like the death wish in a way.

   2. DSDax Shepard45:07

      Yeah.

   3. PAPeter Attia45:08

      It's like... But also realizing, like, it's bigger than him.

   4. DSDax Shepard45:10

      Right.

   5. PAPeter Attia45:11

      Like, he really felt like, "I don't wanna do this. I don't feel safe doing this."

   6. DSDax Shepard45:16

      Yeah.

   7. PAPeter Attia45:17

      "But there's 100 million people who need me to do this."

   8. DSDax Shepard45:21

      Yeah.

   9. PAPeter Attia45:21

      "And they're in worse shape than I am."

   10. DSDax Shepard45:24

       Did you read The Fountainhead ever?

   11. PAPeter Attia45:26

       Mm-mm.

   12. DSDax Shepard45:28

       Mm. 'Cause this would be a good parallel. The people... I read The Fountainhead, loved it. The lead character is roughly based on, um, the architect, uh, Frank Lloyd Wright.

   13. PAPeter Attia45:40

       Mm.

   14. DSDax Shepard45:41

       Um, but he is a man who always knew what he wanted, always had a vision, never compromised, pissed a lot of people off, Howard Roark, but ultimately was always right.

   15. PAPeter Attia45:55

       Mm.

   16. DSDax Shepard45:56

       And I think that archetype, uh, when you're a young man, is incredibly appealing. It was to me. Like, yeah, maybe I just, I know what's right [laughs] . I don't have to listen to anyone else, and then I'll be proven I'm right at the end of it. And I just wonder how much of his... He's a, a high level of disagreeability, wouldn't you think? Like-

   17. PAPeter Attia46:17

       Oh, yeah

   18. DSDax Shepard46:17

       ... Prost was great at playing the political game. The head of the FIA was also French, clearly was helping him the whole, with every dispute between he and Senna. And Senna was just so disagreeable and outspoken and didn't give a shit if anyone liked him.

   19. PAPeter Attia46:35

       Well, but also-

   20. DSDax Shepard46:35

       Was, is that part of his personality appealing?

   21. PAPeter Attia46:37

       Yes, but also there was a, it's I'm gonna win or it doesn't matter. Um, and, and so Prost's nickname was The Professor.

   22. DSDax Shepard46:45

       Right.

   23. PAPeter Attia46:46

       And, and the reason for that was, among other things, he was very smart and very strategic and very calculating.

   24. DSDax Shepard46:55

       Mm-hmm.

   25. PAPeter Attia46:55

       And if he was in a race and he was in third place, he would think to himself, logically, "I'm playing the long game here," which is I'm better off coming in third and getting my six or seven or eight points-

   26. DSDax Shepard47:09

       Yeah

   27. PAPeter Attia47:09

       ... here if I ca- if I don't think I can win.

   28. DSDax Shepard47:12

       Right.

   29. PAPeter Attia47:13

       Senna only wanted to win.

   30. DSDax Shepard47:15

       Yeah.
8. 48:22 – 51:46

   Being the best versus having the best record

   1. DSDax Shepard48:22

      a record junkie-

   2. PAPeter Attia48:23

      Yeah, yeah

   3. DSDax Shepard48:23

      ... I think if you're a record junkie, you would just have to have Lewis as your favorite driver. If you're just looking at numbers or Schumacher-

   4. PAPeter Attia48:34

      Yeah, so here's, here's an analogy, right? If you, I don't know how much you cared for football when you were growing up, but like Barry Sanders doesn't have the records, right? He's not the leading rusher. He doesn't have the most yards. He doesn't have the most touchdowns.

   5. DSDax Shepard48:47

      Yeah

   6. PAPeter Attia48:47

      He has no Super Bowls. Like by any statistic, Barry Sanders is not actually the best.

   7. DSDax Shepard48:53

      Right.

   8. PAPeter Attia48:54

      But-

   9. DSDax Shepard48:55

      But he was

   10. PAPeter Attia48:56

       ... my son, my son, who's obsessed with football, and we read football books every night-

   11. DSDax Shepard48:59

       Yeah

   12. PAPeter Attia48:59

       ... I've already explained to him 10 ways to Sunday, Barry Sanders was the greatest running back of all time.

   13. DSDax Shepard49:04

       Yes

   14. PAPeter Attia49:04

       Because there are intangible factors-

   15. DSDax Shepard49:05

       And he would bench himself as well just-

   16. PAPeter Attia49:08

       Yeah

   17. DSDax Shepard49:08

       ... shy of a record.

   18. PAPeter Attia49:08

       Yeah. Didn't care about the records, actually.

   19. DSDax Shepard49:10

       Yes, he truly didn't.

   20. PAPeter Attia49:11

       Right

   21. DSDax Shepard49:12

       Didn't wanna be in the public eye.

   22. PAPeter Attia49:14

       Yeah.

   23. DSDax Shepard49:14

       Yeah.

   24. PAPeter Attia49:14

       But-

   25. DSDax Shepard49:15

       He's impressive

   26. PAPeter Attia49:15

       ... he's the greatest running back of all time.

   27. DSDax Shepard49:18

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   28. PAPeter Attia49:18

       And, um, even though statistically there were many, you know, th- that were superior. And I think with Senna, there's a, there's a characteristic of his driving.

   29. DSDax Shepard49:27

       Mm-hmm.

   30. PAPeter Attia49:27

       And I do think most drivers would agree he's the greatest of all time. So I, I would bet that if you polled current and past F1 drivers-
9. 51:46 – 58:52

   Senna’s unique driving style and incredible intuition about automotive engineering

   1. PAPeter Attia51:46

      who's the greatest.

   2. DSDax Shepard51:47

      Now explain some of these kinks he has, because I do end up, uh, coming across videos all the time where people are pointing out that, like, Senna had this very unique habit of stabbing the gas.

   3. PAPeter Attia51:58

      Yeah

   4. DSDax Shepard51:59

      Which to me seems [laughs] completely counterintuitive to what you'd wanna do, and I'm curious, like, if you know what his rationale, what was that getting him, and how unique was that?

   5. PAPeter Attia52:10

      It was very unique, and, um, yeah, so to, to, just so people understand what you're saying, Senna had a habit of when he was coming out of a corner, he ... So the way w- the regular mortals like us drive is we come back onto throttle gradually.

   6. DSDax Shepard52:26

      Roll it on

   7. PAPeter Attia52:27

      Roll it on. If you come on too much, you're gonna lose the rear of the car.

   8. DSDax Shepard52:30

      Yeah

   9. PAPeter Attia52:31

      And, and that's the way you go. So you're coming off the brake, you're coming onto the throttle.

   10. DSDax Shepard52:35

       Yeah

   11. PAPeter Attia52:35

       Smooth is fast is the mantra. Smooth is fast.

   12. DSDax Shepard52:38

       Yeah

   13. PAPeter Attia52:39

       And if you look at the telemetry of Senna, because of course in race cars you can, you're measuring to the millimeter and to the PSI exactly what's happening to each pedal, Senna did something very different, which is when he came on throttle, he was stab, stab, stab, stab, stab, stab, stab, and then on full.

   14. DSDax Shepard52:54

       Yeah

   15. PAPeter Attia52:55

       So the, it was hypothesized that this was done because of the turbo lag.

   16. DSDax Shepard53:01

       Revving the turbo up

   17. PAPeter Attia53:02

       Yeah. So you would, you would get rid of the turbo lag-

   18. DSDax Shepard53:06

       Uh-huh

   19. PAPeter Attia53:06

       ... and he would get back to full power quicker than everybody else.

   20. DSDax Shepard53:09

       Right. So he was just, like, keeping it activated until he went full power

   21. PAPeter Attia53:12

       Keeping the RPMs as high as possible-

   22. DSDax Shepard53:15

       Yeah

   23. PAPeter Attia53:15

       ... such that when he got back to full power, there was no lag, and he was gone.

   24. DSDax Shepard53:19

       Yeah

   25. PAPeter Attia53:20

       And, um, so people actually hypothesized that he would struggle when they went back to naturally aspirated cars.

   26. DSDax Shepard53:28

       Uh-huh

   27. PAPeter Attia53:30

       And here's the weird thing. He kept doing it, and he didn't struggle.

   28. DSDax Shepard53:34

       Uh-huh

   29. PAPeter Attia53:35

       So, you know, that's one of the things I don't think I have a great explanation-

   30. DSDax Shepard53:39

       [laughs]
10. 58:52 – 1:09:19

    Back to the day of the dreadful race

    1. PAPeter Attia58:52

       Yeah. Let's go back to the day of the, the day of the, the dreadful race. So, um, so Senna manages to somehow wrangle pole for the third consecutive race of that season-

    2. DSDax Shepard59:04

       With a terrible car

    3. PAPeter Attia59:05

       ... with the undrivable car that is on a knife's edge that he somehow [laughs] manages to put on pole yet again.

    4. DSDax Shepard59:13

       Yeah.

    5. PAPeter Attia59:13

       And, um, he is, you know, this is, this is, uh, he has to win this race, and on the first lap, he gets away clean, and seven cars behind him, one of the cars stalls on the grid, gets plowed by another car, immediate safety car.

    6. DSDax Shepard59:28

       Mm-hmm.

    7. PAPeter Attia59:30

       Um, this was back in a day when the safety cars were insanely slow. They were like little Pintos.

    8. DSDax Shepard59:37

       Uh-huh.

    9. PAPeter Attia59:37

       Today, you know, most people would notice that they have the fastest street cars available as safety cars.

    10. DSDax Shepard59:42

        Yeah, they got the GT-R AMG.

    11. PAPeter Attia59:44

        Yeah, and the reason for that is these cars have to be kept moving quickly to keep the tire temperature high.

    12. DSDax Shepard59:52

        Yeah.

    13. PAPeter Attia59:52

        Um, again, this is something that I understand that if you've never driven a race car, you've never thought of because when you're driving on the street, it doesn't matter, but the temperature of the tires is everything.

    14. DSDax Shepard1:00:03

        Yes.

    15. PAPeter Attia1:00:03

        If the tires are cool, they are bricks. It's like driving ice bricks under the car.

    16. DSDax Shepard1:00:09

        Yeah.

    17. PAPeter Attia1:00:09

        So you, you know, if people are watching F1, they maybe notice during a formation lap or during a safety car, the cars will weave side to side.

    18. DSDax Shepard1:00:17

        Uh-huh.

    19. PAPeter Attia1:00:17

        That's to put friction in the tire. You have to keep the tire warm. And so you want a safety car to be able to go as fast as possible.

    20. DSDax Shepard1:00:23

        Can we add one thing? This is one of my favorite things to try to get people to wrap their heads around when they're learning about F1, which is you have this team that in some cases may have $400 million at its disposal. They have th- literally the best aerodynamicists on planet Earth. They're better than the-

    21. PAPeter Attia1:00:38

        Sure

    22. DSDax Shepard1:00:38

        ... Ha- Adrian Newey's better than anyone at NASA.

    23. PAPeter Attia1:00:41

        Right.

    24. DSDax Shepard1:00:41

        Um, the little tiny bits of carbon fiber wing, if you sit up next to, close to a car, it's, it's boggling how advanced and technological this thing is. And then the engine itself, this 1.6 liter motor that's making 1,000... All of it is, is so next level tech. But then you have to remember, all of it has to transfer through four rubber tires.

    25. PAPeter Attia1:01:04

        That's right.

    26. DSDax Shepard1:01:04

        This is great neutralizing fact about Formula 1. It's like, it doesn't really matter what you do to that car because at the end of the day, you will have the built-in limits of a piece of rubber touching asphalt.

    27. PAPeter Attia1:01:17

        And they all have the same tires.

    28. DSDax Shepard1:01:19

        Yes. I think it's one of the most fascinating aspects of it, is just how much tech leads up to, at the end of the day, four pieces of rubber on asphalt, and you'll never transcend that aspect of it.

    29. PAPeter Attia1:01:32

        Yes. And today it's such a differentiating factor, not because they use different rubber, they don't, they all have the same compound, but the difference between, say, Max Verstappen and Charles Leclerc-

    30. DSDax Shepard1:01:45

        Yeah
11. 1:09:19 – 1:20:34

    What Peter believes caused the crash

    1. PAPeter Attia1:09:19

       So now I've watched this 100,000 times, and I will tell you what I believe is happening.

    2. DSDax Shepard1:09:23

       Okay.

    3. PAPeter Attia1:09:23

       And I will also tell you what Damon believes is happening, and I think that in many ways, even though Damon's view, which is now my view, and by the way, it's also Adrian Newey's view, right? So Adrian's written an amazing book for people who are interested called How to Build a Car.

    4. DSDax Shepard1:09:39

       Okay.

    5. PAPeter Attia1:09:39

       Which is the definitive book on car design.

    6. DSDax Shepard1:09:42

       Ah.

    7. PAPeter Attia1:09:43

       He goes through every one of his cars that he's built.

    8. DSDax Shepard1:09:45

       Wow.

    9. PAPeter Attia1:09:45

       So it's a, a chapter per car.

    10. DSDax Shepard1:09:47

        Yeah.

    11. PAPeter Attia1:09:47

        And obviously one of the-

    12. DSDax Shepard1:09:48

        We should add, for fun, you can debate all day about who was the best driver, whether you think it's Schumacher or Senna.

    13. PAPeter Attia1:09:55

        Right. You can't debate who the best designer is.

    14. DSDax Shepard1:09:57

        He has 14-

    15. PAPeter Attia1:09:59

        Yeah

    16. DSDax Shepard1:09:59

        ... titles or something.

    17. PAPeter Attia1:10:00

        It's sort of like it-

    18. DSDax Shepard1:10:01

        That's the most winningest human being to ever do this.

    19. PAPeter Attia1:10:03

        Yeah, it's, it's sort of like, um, I was telling my son, like, we can debate who the best quarterback and running back and things are. You can't debate who the best wide receiver is. It's the only position in football for which there actually is no debate.

    20. DSDax Shepard1:10:14

        And that is?

    21. PAPeter Attia1:10:14

        Jerry Rice.

    22. DSDax Shepard1:10:15

        Okay.

    23. PAPeter Attia1:10:16

        Yeah, Jer- Jerry Rice is so in a league of his own in football-

    24. DSDax Shepard1:10:18

        Okay

    25. PAPeter Attia1:10:18

        ... that, you know, it's really a question of who's second or third.

    26. DSDax Shepard1:10:21

        Okay.

    27. PAPeter Attia1:10:21

        Um, but you're right, Adrian is in a league of his own.

    28. DSDax Shepard1:10:25

        Yeah.

    29. PAPeter Attia1:10:25

        And so when you read the chapter on the FW16, which was the car that Senna died in, um, I-

    30. DSDax Shepard1:10:31

        Was that an Adrian car?
12. 1:20:34 – 1:29:18

    Views on dying young, in the prime of life

    1. DSDax Shepard1:20:34

       I can tell it's heartbreaking to you that that happened. Um, what is your overall assessment of athletes dying? What, what is your relationship with that? Because I have a very specific compartmentalized view of all that, and it may seem sociopathic on some level.

    2. PAPeter Attia1:20:58

       Well, I can imagine what you're about to say, and I don't know that I would push back on it. Um, look, let's take a step back and think about things, right? You alluded to this earlier. There's something about James Dean and Marilyn Monroe and JFK that-

    3. DSDax Shepard1:21:13

       Mm-hmm

    4. PAPeter Attia1:21:14

       ... cr- you know, creates a legend status in them, and, and part of it is, like, they died in their prime.

    5. DSDax Shepard1:21:20

       Oh, yeah.

    6. PAPeter Attia1:21:20

       And they were at the peak.

    7. DSDax Shepard1:21:22

       Yeah.

    8. PAPeter Attia1:21:22

       And we never saw them get old.

    9. DSDax Shepard1:21:25

       Yeah.

    10. PAPeter Attia1:21:25

        We never saw them decline.

    11. DSDax Shepard1:21:27

        They didn't have to adjust to a non-exciting life.

    12. PAPeter Attia1:21:30

        That's right.

    13. DSDax Shepard1:21:30

        They didn't have to find [laughs]

    14. PAPeter Attia1:21:32

        And Senna was truly at his best. So his l- you know, he died at the third race into the '94 season. Most observers, myself included, would say Senna peaked in '93. Like, his best season, he-- even though he didn't win the championship in '93, he was in a very inferior car, still managed to win five races, and give us some of the most heroic performances we've ever seen-

    15. DSDax Shepard1:21:54

        Yeah

    16. PAPeter Attia1:21:55

        ... including Donington. And so when you have a person who dies at their prime doing the thing they love-

    17. DSDax Shepard1:22:02

        Yeah

    18. PAPeter Attia1:22:02

        ... there's a part of you that says-

    19. DSDax Shepard1:22:04

        Yeah, like-

    20. PAPeter Attia1:22:04

        ... there are worse ways to go.

    21. DSDax Shepard1:22:05

        The context is such that it is sadder than I think it would normally be in that one guy already died, another guy almost died, and he had those reservations about driving. That, that complicates-

    22. PAPeter Attia1:22:17

        Yep

    23. DSDax Shepard1:22:17

        ... my, you know, verdict on the whole thing. But in general, I find that I sometimes am talking to people, and the singular measure of life for a lot of people is just longevity.

    24. PAPeter Attia1:22:33

        Right, it's just duration.

    25. DSDax Shepard1:22:34

        Duration. And I look at some of these people. I remember when Paul Walker died, and this is probably-

    26. PAPeter Attia1:22:40

        Did you know Paul?

    27. DSDax Shepard1:22:41

        I never met Paul. Um, shockingly, 'cause we were like-

    28. PAPeter Attia1:22:46

        It's amazing given your overall

    29. DSDax Shepard1:22:47

        ... yeah, intersecting car cultury stuff. It seems like I would have. But n- I have friends that were friends with him and adored him. But, you know, when he died, obviously it's, it's super sad, but there was some part of my brain that was like, if you were to have, um, measured somehow the amount of experience he had had on planet Earth-

    30. PAPeter Attia1:23:09

        Yeah
13. 1:29:18 – 1:32:34

    Senna lives on in his foundation and in safety changes adopted by F1

    1. PAPeter Attia1:29:18

       he died, he had spoken to his older sister and said, "You know, I really wanna get more formal in my giving."

    2. DSDax Shepard1:29:25

       Hmm.

    3. PAPeter Attia1:29:25

       'Cause up until that point, he had just been very quietly giving, mostly to education.

    4. DSDax Shepard1:29:29

       Okay.

    5. PAPeter Attia1:29:29

       Right? Mostly because, as you can understand, the poverty in Brazil was so significant at that time.

    6. DSDax Shepard1:29:35

       Mm-hmm.

    7. PAPeter Attia1:29:35

       But he said to his sister, Viviane, "I, I want to, I wanna make this more structured. I wanna create a foundation where we do this right." And of course, he would go on to die very soon after that, but his sister honored that wish. And now the Senna Foundation, which has probably given over half a billion dollars-

    8. DSDax Shepard1:29:54

       Really?

    9. PAPeter Attia1:29:54

       ... to education in Brazil, is one of the most important foundations.

    10. DSDax Shepard1:29:58

        Yeah.

    11. PAPeter Attia1:29:59

        And so in that sense, like, he does live on.

    12. DSDax Shepard1:30:01

        Yeah.

    13. PAPeter Attia1:30:02

        He, he, he lives on in the sense that, you know, anybody who thinks about this sport knows, like, what greatness was.

    14. DSDax Shepard1:30:12

        Mm-hmm.

    15. PAPeter Attia1:30:12

        Right? Even, even if you don't like him, like I-- Believe me, I have a friend who doesn't even really like him that much. It's hard to be friends with him sometimes.

    16. DSDax Shepard1:30:19

        [laughs]

    17. PAPeter Attia1:30:19

        No, I'm just kidding. Um, but, like, you know, he's adamant that, you know, Lewis is better than, than Senna.

    18. DSDax Shepard1:30:25

        Oh.

    19. PAPeter Attia1:30:25

        And, um, um, and, and he sort of has a negative view of everything Senna. He's, like, he thinks of, oh, you know, Senna was horrible when he crashed into Prost in Suzuka in '91, or n- it was '90 actually. Um, and, and but that said, like, you know, his impact on the sport is, is irrefutable. The other thing that's worth mentioning, and I don't think anybody would dispute this, his death did change the sport forever.

    20. DSDax Shepard1:30:51

        It did.

    21. PAPeter Attia1:30:52

        In the sense that it changed safety instantaneously.

    22. DSDax Shepard1:30:55

        Mm.

    23. PAPeter Attia1:30:56

        It's not that he was the first driver to die, and you could even argue that there was a comparable death in the 1960s when Jim Clark died. Jim Clark was the reigning world champion when he died-

    24. DSDax Shepard1:31:06

        Mm

    25. PAPeter Attia1:31:06

        ... in 1960, uh, in 1960-- God, 1967, I believe. But the death, you know, in nine- in the 19... First of all, he died in a Formula Two race. Back then, drivers would drive all series. It wasn't just like-

    26. DSDax Shepard1:31:19

        Uh-huh

    27. PAPeter Attia1:31:19

        ... even if you were an F1 driver, you still drove F2 to pay the bills. Like-

    28. DSDax Shepard1:31:22

        Oh, really?

    29. PAPeter Attia1:31:22

        ... the sport was so much smaller back then, right?

    30. DSDax Shepard1:31:24

        Yeah.
14. 1:32:34 – 1:38:00

    Statistics aren’t enough for fandom, and why people like who they do

    1. DSDax Shepard1:32:34

       we talk about... 'Cause I think what's really... It w- it would be incomplete to say it's all statistics based, 'cause it's not. And so I think what D- dare we say in public why we both don't, aren't drawn to Lewis? I wonder if in exploring that, it would reveal why we like the ones we do.

    2. PAPeter Attia1:32:57

       I mean, it's, it's all different for me, right? Like, obviously I have a very close personal connection to Sebastian Vettel.

    3. DSDax Shepard1:33:03

       Yeah.

    4. PAPeter Attia1:33:03

       And also, I had stopped paying attention to F1 after 1997.

    5. DSDax Shepard1:33:08

       Okay.

    6. PAPeter Attia1:33:09

       So, um, in 1997, Jacques Villeneuve, also Canadian, and the son of Gilles Villeneuve. So I, you know, grew up paying a lot of attention to Jacques Villeneuve 'cause he was racing IndyCar before he went to F1.

    7. DSDax Shepard1:33:22

       Mm.

    8. PAPeter Attia1:33:22

       And, um, so when, when Villeneuve won the title in '97, I was in medical school, and that was kind of a period of my life when I just decided, like, I'm gonna start paying more attention to school than sports. Like, I stopped watching football. I didn't pay any attention to F1 at all-

    9. DSDax Shepard1:33:42

       Right

    10. PAPeter Attia1:33:42

        ... beyond, like, a little bit. So here we entered sort of... So Hakkinen won '98 and '99, and then Schumacher had that run of, of five victories.

    11. DSDax Shepard1:33:51

        Yeah.

    12. PAPeter Attia1:33:52

        I will say this. Deep down, there was a tiny, tiny part of me that didn't like Schumacher and held him, and this is gonna sound ridiculous, held him partially responsible for Senna's death.

    13. DSDax Shepard1:34:00

        Because he was the one applying the pressure?

    14. PAPeter Attia1:34:03

        And he was driving a car with, that I felt was illegal and Senna believed was illegal, right?

    15. DSDax Shepard1:34:08

        Right. Uh-huh.

    16. PAPeter Attia1:34:08

        So Senna also believed he was run, outrunning a car that had traction control when his car was undrivable.

    17. DSDax Shepard1:34:14

        Yeah. But, but we must also admit, Senna had gone to Williams to drive a car that was gonna have a huge technological advantage over everyone else. So it's like anyone would have used whatever.

    18. PAPeter Attia1:34:23

        Yeah, yeah.

    19. DSDax Shepard1:34:24

        Yeah.

    20. PAPeter Attia1:34:24

        Yeah. But, but the difference is active suspension was fully legal. Williams just had a better-

    21. DSDax Shepard1:34:28

        Sure, yeah.

    22. PAPeter Attia1:34:28

        Although, you know, it's really interesting. If you go back and look, the active suspension of Senna's car in '93 was probably just as good as the Williams. The reason the Williams car was so dominant was it had the Renault engine that was incredible.

    23. DSDax Shepard1:34:42

        Okay.

    24. PAPeter Attia1:34:43

        And the Honda engine in '93, the Ford Cosworth engine was, was nowhere near as good that year.

    25. DSDax Shepard1:34:49

        Okay.

    26. PAPeter Attia1:34:50

        And so Senna, I mean, again, 'cause he still managed to win five races-

    27. DSDax Shepard1:34:54

        Yeah

    28. PAPeter Attia1:34:54

        ... in a season where his car was clearly outclassed. Um, but the point is, everybody could have active. It's just McLaren and Williams had a better active than everybody else. Williams also happened to have the best engine by far, so it was hands down the best car. But the detuning of the active was hardest on them to recover. Um, but I think that, um, I didn't come back to paying attention to F1 until Vettel's years.

    29. DSDax Shepard1:35:20

        Okay.

    30. PAPeter Attia1:35:21

        So Vettel won his first title in 2010.
15. 1:38:00 – 1:39:58

    The biggest difference between F1 today and F1 in the 80s

    1. PAPeter Attia1:38:00

       But the difference is in the '80s and frankly into the late '90s, uh, or at least the mid-'90s, the balance between driver and car was about 50/50, just to put a stake in the ground. Meaning it was 50% the car and 50% the driver.

    2. DSDax Shepard1:38:18

       That's unimaginable right now.

    3. PAPeter Attia1:38:20

       Correct. Today it's probably 75/25, maybe 80/20.

    4. DSDax Shepard1:38:25

       Yeah, I mean, with certain drivers you could put it up to 25, but in general ...

    5. PAPeter Attia1:38:31

       Right.

    6. DSDax Shepard1:38:31

       Yeah.

    7. PAPeter Attia1:38:31

       In other words, the difference is if you put Max into the old Williams-

    8. DSDax Shepard1:38:36

       In the old Williams

    9. PAPeter Attia1:38:36

       ... car today, he wouldn't win a race.

    10. DSDax Shepard1:38:39

        He can't win.

    11. PAPeter Attia1:38:40

        He can't win a single race.

    12. DSDax Shepard1:38:41

        No.

    13. PAPeter Attia1:38:42

        And the, the-

    14. DSDax Shepard1:38:43

        Unless it's raining.

    15. PAPeter Attia1:38:45

        Right. But, but here's the point, right? You go back into the '80s, Senna's in a Toleman that first year, and he basically wins Monaco.

    16. DSDax Shepard1:38:52

        Schumacher's originally, right, in the Benetton car-

    17. PAPeter Attia1:38:55

        Yeah

    18. DSDax Shepard1:38:55

        ... which is not competitive, and he's podium.

    19. PAPeter Attia1:38:57

        Well, but yeah, but he eventually did win in that. But if you, again, if you just go back and look at how much Senna was able to do before he got into the McLaren.

    20. DSDax Shepard1:39:06

        The perfect car. Yeah.

    21. PAPeter Attia1:39:06

        Right? Before he got into the perfect car, he was still clobbering it.

    22. DSDax Shepard1:39:10

        Yeah.

    23. PAPeter Attia1:39:10

        Not every race.

    24. DSDax Shepard1:39:11

        But there's also, there's a, there's, there's another set of variables which I think made the racing back then more fun, too, is that the re- reliability was an enormous factor, too.

    25. PAPeter Attia1:39:20

        Huge.

    26. DSDax Shepard1:39:20

        So, like, you could have the best car, but every car's gonna DNF two races a season 'cause the, the reliability just wasn't there.

    27. PAPeter Attia1:39:28

        That's right.

    28. DSDax Shepard1:39:29

        So that threw things into a, a much more unpredictable ... Now when you see Max retire 'cause of a mechanical failure-

    29. PAPeter Attia1:39:36

        It's almost unheard of

    30. DSDax Shepard1:39:37

        ... you're like, how did this happen? Someone's getting fired. This doesn't happen.
16. 1:39:58 – 1:48:15

    Senna’s driving superpower

    1. PAPeter Attia1:39:58

       uh, Senna's ability to drive in the rain was-

    2. DSDax Shepard1:40:02

       Yeah

    3. PAPeter Attia1:40:02

       ... just so magical.

    4. DSDax Shepard1:40:05

       There's a few dudes in MotoGP currently that are that way. It's like it starts raining and you're like, "Okay, Jack Miller, you're up. [laughs] You're gonna destroy today on a way less competitive bike," which is so fun.

    5. PAPeter Attia1:40:17

       So Angelo, Angelo Parello, who, uh, just passed away exactly a year ago, but Angelo, who I never knew in person, but I got to know him through video. So I'd FaceTime with him a few times, uh, and, and had the, had the chance to speak with him several times, um, over the last five years prior to his death. Um, Angelo was the team principal for DAP, uh, which was the premier karting team of the '70s and '80s. So Senna was w- so Senna and, um, and another guy, Fullerton, were sort of the two biggest names in European karting in the late '70s and early '80s. And, um, you know, uh, I remember him saying that as good as you think Senna was in an F1 car, he was even better in a kart.

    6. DSDax Shepard1:41:06

       Really?

    7. PAPeter Attia1:41:07

       He said he was so good in a kart and so good in the rain that when it was raining, he would usually try to petition the marshals to cancel the race and just give, give Senna the trophy.

    8. DSDax Shepard1:41:18

       Right. [laughs]

    9. PAPeter Attia1:41:18

       He's like, "Why, why bother ruining the karts today?"

    10. DSDax Shepard1:41:21

        Yeah.

    11. PAPeter Attia1:41:21

        "We know who's gonna win. Just give Senna the trophy."

    12. DSDax Shepard1:41:24

        Yeah.

    13. PAPeter Attia1:41:24

        And then of course they would say no.

    14. DSDax Shepard1:41:26

        Let's pack it up.

    15. PAPeter Attia1:41:26

        They race. Senna would win. I mean, would, you know, would double lap everybody.

    16. DSDax Shepard1:41:31

        Yeah.

    17. PAPeter Attia1:41:31

        And, um, he-

    18. DSDax Shepard1:41:33

        And it's a cool aspect.

    19. PAPeter Attia1:41:34

        Yeah. And then that's ... I'll, I'll say this, like, as a, as a really, really lousy driver, it's hard to put in words how much more difficult it gets in the rain.

    20. DSDax Shepard1:41:46

        Yeah. I immediately go straight to the motorcycles 'cause what, when I, uh, watching MotoGP and watching them in the rain and admitting to myself they're turning faster lap times at that track than I can on drys-

    21. PAPeter Attia1:41:59

        In the dry. Yeah

    22. DSDax Shepard1:42:01

        ... is so humbling. And yes, Senna on any track in a, in the world, full downpour, would destroy you on the perfect day, which is so humbling.

    23. PAPeter Attia1:42:13

        A- and again, it's like what, watching what he's doing, and you can see there's, there's some amazing video when he's in the John Player Special in '85, his first win.

    24. DSDax Shepard1:42:23

        Coolest livery ever, by the way.

    25. PAPeter Attia1:42:24

        Yeah, it is.

    26. DSDax Shepard1:42:26

        Yeah.

    27. PAPeter Attia1:42:26

        When he wins his first race in Portugal that year, it is pissing rain.

    28. DSDax Shepard1:42:32

        Uh-huh.

    29. PAPeter Attia1:42:32

        He is driving down the straights and the car is doing this.

    30. DSDax Shepard1:42:36

        Hydroplaning.
17. 1:48:15 – 1:55:55

    The fastest drivers currently in F1

    1. DSDax Shepard1:48:15

       the evidence is clear through, um, what's his name? Our favorite Finnish man. Uh, his teammate.

    2. PAPeter Attia1:48:22

       Oh, Valtteri.

    3. DSDax Shepard1:48:23

       Yeah, Bottas. Bottas is winning races. He's getting pole. I love Bottas, but I think his post-Mercedes career gives us a sense of where he's at in the pack.

    4. PAPeter Attia1:48:35

       Yeah.

    5. DSDax Shepard1:48:36

       And so the fact that he was regularly winning races and getting pole position, yeah. Um, it's hard not to want to see them on the same team, but I don't even think it would be that fun to watch.

    6. PAPeter Attia1:48:47

       Yeah.

    7. DSDax Shepard1:48:48

       If you had to order who you think the fastest drivers are right now, what would you dare say out loud in public?

    8. PAPeter Attia1:48:55

       I think Max is the fastest, uh, by quite a bit. I think Fernando is the second fastest.

    9. DSDax Shepard1:49:01

       You do?

    10. PAPeter Attia1:49:01

        Again, you're, you're asking me not in the ... You're asking me who the best drivers are, not thinking, not taking into consideration their cars.

    11. DSDax Shepard1:49:09

        Correct.

    12. PAPeter Attia1:49:09

        Yeah, yeah.

    13. DSDax Shepard1:49:09

        Yeah.

    14. PAPeter Attia1:49:10

        I think Max is-

    15. DSDax Shepard1:49:10

        Like, they're all on the exact same spec model. What do we expect?

    16. PAPeter Attia1:49:14

        Well, but that's even a difficult question for the following reason, right? Which is different cars have different styles.

    17. DSDax Shepard1:49:19

        Sure.

    18. PAPeter Attia1:49:19

        The Red Bull is really built around Max's style.

    19. DSDax Shepard1:49:22

        Yeah, he likes oversteer.

    20. PAPeter Attia1:49:24

        Yeah.

    21. DSDax Shepard1:49:24

        There's certain things he loves.

    22. PAPeter Attia1:49:25

        Yeah. And, and the way Max drives, again, this is another reason why I think Max is so good, is he drives a car that, um has a couple of features. It's a car that can be driven very fast, but has a very narrow operating window-

    23. DSDax Shepard1:49:46

        Yeah

    24. PAPeter Attia1:49:46

        ... to be driven fast.

    25. DSDax Shepard1:49:47

        Very hard to drive fast.

    26. PAPeter Attia1:49:48

        It's very hard to drive it fast.

    27. DSDax Shepard1:49:50

        Yeah.

    28. PAPeter Attia1:49:50

        And it's, um, I think in many ways it's a testament to how far Checo has come that he is now at least three races into this season-

    29. DSDax Shepard1:49:58

        He's doing well this year

    30. PAPeter Attia1:49:59

        ... he's doing, he's doing quite well.
18. 1:55:55 – 2:01:25

    Current F1 obsessions

    1. DSDax Shepard1:55:55

       the national symbol of Italy.

    2. PAPeter Attia1:55:58

       You know, my, my WhatsApp group, my F1 WhatsApp group, um, the, the, the thing that gives that group the most joy is watching how bad Alpine is doing right now. That's, that's like-

    3. DSDax Shepard1:56:08

       [laughs]

    4. PAPeter Attia1:56:08

       ... that's the source of the most amusement.

    5. DSDax Shepard1:56:10

       And why... Did they, did they previously hate Alpine?

    6. PAPeter Attia1:56:14

       Yeah, I think, um... I don't know. I, look, I, I, I-

    7. DSDax Shepard1:56:19

       That's been the biggest drop in performance I've seen since I've been watching it, Alpine last year to this year.

    8. PAPeter Attia1:56:25

       Yeah. But even last year they finished. They were str- they were, they, I think they really underperformed last year for what was expected.

    9. DSDax Shepard1:56:31

       Right. But those two were, like, getting into the points every other race. Now they're, they're, like, 19 and 20 every race.

    10. PAPeter Attia1:56:38

        Yeah. Um-

    11. DSDax Shepard1:56:39

        They're worse than Williams or-

    12. PAPeter Attia1:56:40

        Yeah, I don't know

    13. DSDax Shepard1:56:41

        ... or Haas

    14. PAPeter Attia1:56:41

        ... I think there's just, it's h- it's, it's, it's, um, it's very confusing why Alpine would do so poorly.

    15. DSDax Shepard1:56:46

        Yeah.

    16. PAPeter Attia1:56:47

        Um, they, they, 'cause they do well in other series, right? Like, their, their, their, their supercars and hypercars and prototypes, like, these other cars, they, they, they, they do a pretty good job.

    17. DSDax Shepard1:56:57

        Mm.

    18. PAPeter Attia1:56:57

        So, um, that's interesting. I, yeah-

    19. DSDax Shepard1:57:00

        And I just love how much those two hate each other. That's amusing as well.

    20. PAPeter Attia1:57:03

        [laughs] It is.

    21. DSDax Shepard1:57:03

        I think they're the most hated teammates.

    22. PAPeter Attia1:57:05

        And my, my wife is obsessed with Pierre. She loves him. Loves Pierre.

    23. DSDax Shepard1:57:09

        Yeah, he's got a following.

    24. PAPeter Attia1:57:10

        Oh.

    25. DSDax Shepard1:57:10

        Girls love Pierre. My w-

    26. PAPeter Attia1:57:13

        He's having fun

    27. DSDax Shepard1:57:14

        ... my wife loves her some Pierre.

    28. PAPeter Attia1:57:16

        Is that number one for her?

    29. DSDax Shepard1:57:17

        Yeah, it is.

    30. PAPeter Attia1:57:18

        Really?
19. 2:01:25 – 2:04:00

    How hard it is to do what the top F1 drivers do

    1. PAPeter Attia2:01:25

       his... 'Cause you could sort of think, like, what, what is Max's superpower? 'Cause he's so good in a car.

    2. DSDax Shepard2:01:30

       Yeah, it's outrageous.

    3. PAPeter Attia2:01:32

       Like, he's so... He's, he's, he's just, he's so head and shoulders above everybody else-

    4. DSDax Shepard2:01:35

       Iconic anymore

    5. PAPeter Attia2:01:36

       ... that you don't realize it.

    6. DSDax Shepard2:01:37

       Yeah.

    7. PAPeter Attia2:01:37

       But he said part of his superpower is just that nothing phases him. Like, and that's hard to put in words how big a deal that is in driving You know, before we were recording, I was showing you some video from my driving this week.

    8. DSDax Shepard2:01:52

       Yeah.

    9. PAPeter Attia2:01:52

       And, you know, I, I was telling you, like, it was, like, worst day I've ever had on a track, right?

    10. DSDax Shepard2:01:55

        [laughs] Yeah, yeah.

    11. PAPeter Attia2:01:56

        Like, spinning nonstop. And the problem is I've never done anything in my life where the psychology of performance compounds more geometrically. Like, the, when you start making mistakes-

    12. DSDax Shepard2:02:09

        Yes, they s- they pile up in a way that is unique

    13. PAPeter Attia2:02:12

        Yeah. And, and it's like intellectually you understand I have to be a goldfish in this moment. I have to forget what just happened.

    14. DSDax Shepard2:02:20

        Yeah.

    15. PAPeter Attia2:02:20

        And you, I, I, at least for me, on, on this particular day, I couldn't.

    16. DSDax Shepard2:02:24

        Yeah.

    17. PAPeter Attia2:02:25

        And it started in my first session. So first session out, I had a lockup.

    18. DSDax Shepard2:02:29

        Uh-huh.

    19. PAPeter Attia2:02:30

        And, uh, for people who don't understand what that means, it means, like, the tires were a little too cold. I hit the brakes a little too hard. They locked. We don't have ABS in these cars.

    20. DSDax Shepard2:02:39

        And now you can't turn.

    21. PAPeter Attia2:02:40

        I can't turn, I can't stop, I can't do anything, and this circuit I'm on has no runoff.

    22. DSDax Shepard2:02:47

        Mm.

    23. PAPeter Attia2:02:47

        So it's like when you lock up, I had three nanoseconds to realize it. By the time I realized it, I was actually off the track.

    24. DSDax Shepard2:02:54

        Right.

    25. PAPeter Attia2:02:54

        And I mean, it, it r- I just never got out of that funk.

    26. DSDax Shepard2:02:59

        'Cause you were beating yourself up for that?

    27. PAPeter Attia2:03:02

        Partly beating myself up for it, but then partly not wanting to lock up again because now you have a flat spot on the tire-

    28. DSDax Shepard2:03:07

        Right

    29. PAPeter Attia2:03:07

        ... so now you're more susceptible to a lockup. So now I had to pull my braking further back. So now every session I'm comparing my telemetry of this day to my telemetry the last time I was on the track, and my coach is like, "Look, dude, you are braking 50 feet too early."

    30. DSDax Shepard2:03:23

        Yeah.
20. 2:04:00 – 2:14:05

    Dax’s love of motorcycles and his AMG E63 station wagon

    1. PAPeter Attia2:04:00

       yeah, or golf or boxing.

    2. DSDax Shepard2:04:00

       It's very mental.

    3. PAPeter Attia2:04:01

       Yeah.

    4. DSDax Shepard2:04:02

       You know, I do want you to start riding motorcycles because the interesting thing about the motorcycle is it really can only go through one way. Like, you can't go slower through because now you can't hang off the bike as much. Like, there's all these things that are kinda built into they have to happen the same way. So even if you had a moment on a previous lap, you can't enter slower 'cause then you can't lean as much 'cause you don't have enough s- centrifugal force pulling you out. So it's almost like you don't really have the option, if that makes any sense. Like, in a car you could skate-

    5. PAPeter Attia2:04:37

       Yeah, yeah

    6. DSDax Shepard2:04:37

       ... through a turn, but on the bike, the way it works right is it has to be going through at a certain speed so you can be off it as much as you need to be, and all these things. Otherwise, you're just kinda driving it s- riding it straight up and down.

    7. PAPeter Attia2:04:51

       Yeah, I thought about that a lot after we got back from COTA. I talked to my wife about it. I even sent her a picture of the bike that you want me to get.

    8. DSDax Shepard2:04:57

       Yeah. [laughs]

    9. PAPeter Attia2:04:59

       And, uh, it's really funny. She didn't even entertain it. Her only response was, "Shut it."

    10. DSDax Shepard2:05:03

        Oh. Like, no way.

    11. PAPeter Attia2:05:05

        Yeah, like, just like, "This is so dumb, we're not even gonna talk about it-

    12. DSDax Shepard2:05:08

        Oh, wow. Okay, okay

    13. PAPeter Attia2:05:08

        ... 'cause you're so, you're so stupid that you would even think to add another dumb hobby to your life of-"

    14. DSDax Shepard2:05:13

        Okay, that's fair.

    15. PAPeter Attia2:05:14

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    16. DSDax Shepard2:05:15

        I'm really-

    17. PAPeter Attia2:05:15

        And by the way, I don't even think she was opposing it from the standpoint of danger.

    18. DSDax Shepard2:05:19

        It's just you got too much shit going on.

    19. PAPeter Attia2:05:20

        Yeah, it's like, what-

    20. DSDax Shepard2:05:21

        You, you gotta-

    21. PAPeter Attia2:05:21

        You don't eat-

    22. DSDax Shepard2:05:21

        ... pick something.

    23. PAPeter Attia2:05:22

        Yeah.

    24. DSDax Shepard2:05:22

        Yeah.

    25. PAPeter Attia2:05:23

        Like, you have too many things that you do-

    26. DSDax Shepard2:05:26

        Yeah

    27. PAPeter Attia2:05:26

        ... and waste time and money on. Why would you add another one?

    28. DSDax Shepard2:05:29

        'Cause it exists. [laughs] I have to do everything.

    29. PAPeter Attia2:05:32

        No, but then I thought about it. I was like, well, you know, in five years I will have a lot more free time. In 10 years, the kids will all be gone.

    30. DSDax Shepard2:05:40

        Yeah.
21. 2:14:05 – 2:23:50

    Awesome Senna mementos from Etsy

    1. DSDax Shepard2:14:05

       tell you something really quick. Hold on. Okay, so this is what happened. My wife was perusing Etsy. Does Jill go on Etsy?

    2. PAPeter Attia2:14:14

       Oh, yeah. As does this one over here.

    3. DSDax Shepard2:14:16

       She loves Etsy. I've never gone and looked around myself.

    4. PAPeter Attia2:14:19

       Oh, I could spend hours on Etsy.

    5. DSDax Shepard2:14:21

       Okay, so she found these for me, and I felt like I didn't deserve them.

    6. PAPeter Attia2:14:29

       Okay.

    7. DSDax Shepard2:14:29

       And I insisted that she get them so that I could give them to you. I'm hoping it's the only piece of memorabilia you don't have.

    8. PAPeter Attia2:15:01

       Is that an MP4/4?

    9. DSDax Shepard2:15:03

       Yeah. These are Senna cups.

    10. PAPeter Attia2:15:07

        Wow. That's beautiful.

    11. DSDax Shepard2:15:11

        Pretty cool, right?

    12. PAPeter Attia2:15:14

        So cool.

    13. DSDax Shepard2:15:14

        Etsy. And then I bought this for myself-

    14. PAPeter Attia2:15:17

        This is so-

    15. DSDax Shepard2:15:17

        ... but my arms are too ape-like and l- and long, so I've decided to pass it on to you.

    16. PAPeter Attia2:15:25

        Whoa.

    17. DSDax Shepard2:15:25

        Look at this glorious item.

    18. PAPeter Attia2:15:28

        Look at that.

    19. DSDax Shepard2:15:29

        [laughs]

    20. PAPeter Attia2:15:30

        Someone med- made this. This was on ... Did you get this on Etsy as well?

    21. DSDax Shepard2:15:33

        Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How great is that?

    22. PAPeter Attia2:15:35

        That is so-

    23. DSDax Shepard2:15:36

        I put it on. I was very bummed that the arms only came up to midway down my wrists.

    24. PAPeter Attia2:15:41

        Uh, I mean, are you sure you don't just wanna do sleeve roll-up?

    25. DSDax Shepard2:15:43

        I'm positive. I want you to have that.

    26. PAPeter Attia2:15:45

        Thank you so much.

    27. DSDax Shepard2:15:46

        And the glasses. And that was a third of my suitcase I brought, and now I have room to amass something else. [laughs]

    28. PAPeter Attia2:15:55

        [laughs] It's cool, though, right? Cool sighting.

    29. DSDax Shepard2:15:57

        Well, you know what's really interesting, 'cause I'm a real stickler for detail.

    30. PAPeter Attia2:16:01

        Sure.
22. 2:23:50 – 2:28:19

    What makes specialists interesting, and Max’s devotion to F1

    1. DSDax Shepard2:23:50

       Yeah. Grant's super fascinating because he's an abject failure at everything in life except for war and his presidency. Terrible with money, insolvent, duped many times, but he had a genius, and it was just so specific, and it was unrivaled. Like, it's, uh, such a good book, and it's like, um, maybe encourages you to figure out... I, I'm, I think you and I are similar in like, I wanna be kinda good at everything. [laughs] I, my appetite to wanna do stuff is just so enormous that I'd rather be, like, pretty good at or even moderate at a bunch of things. So the, the notions of, like, specialists really interest me-

    2. PAPeter Attia2:24:33

       Yeah

    3. DSDax Shepard2:24:33

       ... 'cause I'm just so not that way at all. I wanna be able to, like, talk to anyone I meet and hopefully have a hobby in common or something. I'm not trying to get super esoteric with, like, your brain surgeon friend that's over.

    4. PAPeter Attia2:24:45

       [laughs]

    5. DSDax Shepard2:24:46

       And I think there's some drawback to that, but I am fascinated by people who just do-- Max. I doubt Max can balance a checkbook or go grocery shopping. He's probably not a great boyfriend, but boy, he can do that thing.

    6. PAPeter Attia2:25:00

       Yeah, speaking of Max, I think, you know, a lot of drivers don't like to spend that much time in simulators. Like, when they're away from the car, they're away from the car.

    7. DSDax Shepard2:25:08

       Yes.

    8. PAPeter Attia2:25:08

       And that's not Max. Like, literally after he wins a race in the highest division of the highest sport-

    9. DSDax Shepard2:25:18

       Yeah

    10. PAPeter Attia2:25:18

        ... when anybody else would be out partying, he's on a sim race-

    11. DSDax Shepard2:25:22

        [laughs]

    12. PAPeter Attia2:25:22

        ... competing against the sim racers around the world.

    13. DSDax Shepard2:25:26

        Yes.

    14. PAPeter Attia2:25:26

        Within hours.

    15. DSDax Shepard2:25:27

        Yeah, and he'll spend three hours-

    16. PAPeter Attia2:25:29

        Yeah

    17. DSDax Shepard2:25:29

        ... sitting there doing it. Yeah, that's-- And that's just another aspect to it. It's like, I don't think anyone on that grid spends as much time thinking about racing.

    18. PAPeter Attia2:25:39

        I do-- I, you know, it's funny, now that we've talked about it, I really would love to know what Max thinks of Senna and how much he is historically aware now that Max's own legend grows.

    19. DSDax Shepard2:25:54

        Mm-hmm.

    20. PAPeter Attia2:25:55

        And look, by the end of this year, he's gonna be a four-time world champion.

    21. DSDax Shepard2:25:58

        Yep.

    22. PAPeter Attia2:25:58

        He, you know, and even though he's only 26 years old, and he could easily race another 10 years and eclipse every record ever-

    23. DSDax Shepard2:26:06

        Yeah

    24. PAPeter Attia2:26:06

        ... i- if he chooses to, um- You know, I wonder where he sees his place, and I wonder if he has an appreciation for, for the, you know, the, the legends of the sport.

    25. DSDax Shepard2:26:19

        Yeah, that's an interesting question because he regularly threatens to quit all the time.

    26. PAPeter Attia2:26:25

        Mm-hmm.

    27. DSDax Shepard2:26:25

        That's the other really contradictory thing about him is he's really haphazard about threatening to quit. He doesn't like sprint races. He hates those.

    28. PAPeter Attia2:26:34

        Well, I think, you know, Max quitting doesn't mean he wouldn't drive. It just means he wouldn't drive F1.

    29. DSDax Shepard2:26:40

        Yeah, it's just interesting.

    30. PAPeter Attia2:26:41

        He's, he's-- Max would drive... Max and Alonso are probably the two people who I think will drive forever.
23. 2:28:19 – 2:32:35

    What Senna might have done if he had not died that day

    1. PAPeter Attia2:28:19

       I can't help but wonder, and I know that I'm far from alone in this, in wondering what would have been had Senna not died that day. Um, I think most observers believe he would have driven another four years until the next regulation change and at the end of Williams' dominance. So Williams ended up being the most dominant car the year he died. So despite the fact that it was an impossible to drive vehicle for those first three races, the, the brilliance of that team did figure it out.

    2. DSDax Shepard2:28:51

       Mm-hmm.

    3. PAPeter Attia2:28:52

       And his teammate, Damon Hill, almost won the championship that year. In fact, he was one point behind Schumacher going into the final race of the year.

    4. DSDax Shepard2:29:02

       Wow.

    5. PAPeter Attia2:29:03

       Schumacher crashed him out of the race, crashed himself out of the race, and in doing so, Damon actually looked like he was gonna win the race, but it broke his suspension rod. So h- Damon ended up finish that, finishing that year one point behind Schumacher. Um-

    6. DSDax Shepard2:29:19

       So he would have definitely won.

    7. PAPeter Attia2:29:20

       He would have absolutely won.

    8. DSDax Shepard2:29:21

       Yeah.

    9. PAPeter Attia2:29:22

       Uh, Schumacher won the next year. It was close. Damon Hill won the next year in the Williams, and Jacques Villeneuve won the next year in the Williams. So I don't think it's a, an enormous stretch to say, look, Senna probably would have won four consecutive championships in '94, '95, '96, and '97.

    10. DSDax Shepard2:29:39

        Putting him at-

    11. PAPeter Attia2:29:40

        And he-- Seven. To putting him at seven or eight if you include [chuckles] the one that was stolen. Um, you know, there's talk that he always had a soft spot for Ferrari, like every driver-

    12. DSDax Shepard2:29:50

        Yeah, yeah, yeah

    13. PAPeter Attia2:29:50

        ... and would have maybe gone to Ferrari. But he also would have been 37, which, not that old, but, you know, it, I could have seen him retiring. But what a lot of people question is, given his absolute love for Brazil, would he have gone into politics?

    14. DSDax Shepard2:30:04

        Right.

    15. PAPeter Attia2:30:04

        And would it have made a difference in the presence of Brazil, right? Like, this is a guy that was so loved. Like, you, you know.

    16. DSDax Shepard2:30:12

        Yeah.

    17. PAPeter Attia2:30:13

        There's no example we can point to of someone who turns to politics with that much of the support of a nation. Now, you know-

    18. DSDax Shepard2:30:20

        Pacquiao.

    19. PAPeter Attia2:30:21

        Um, I don't think Pacquiao was ev- I don't, I don't know if Pacquiao was even as loved by the Philippines as, as Senna was by Brazil.

    20. DSDax Shepard2:30:29

        Really?

    21. PAPeter Attia2:30:30

        Well, because again, I don't think people took Pacquiao as seriously.

    22. DSDax Shepard2:30:33

        Hmm.

    23. PAPeter Attia2:30:33

        Right? I don't think people took him-

    24. DSDax Shepard2:30:35

        I loved him-

    25. PAPeter Attia2:30:36

        Yes

    26. DSDax Shepard2:30:36

        ... as a fighter.

    27. PAPeter Attia2:30:37

        No, no. I mean, incredible fighter.

    28. DSDax Shepard2:30:38

        Yeah, what a warrior.

    29. PAPeter Attia2:30:39

        But I don't know that people took him, I don't know that the people of the Philippines took him as seriously as people would have taken Senna.

    30. DSDax Shepard2:30:44

        Right.
24. 2:32:35 – 2:33:55

    Michael Schumacher and Max Verstappen are also top F1 drivers

    1. PAPeter Attia2:32:35

       Um, and-

    2. DSDax Shepard2:32:36

       But don't we have to, we have to give Schumacher a lot of credit. The fact that he goes to Ferrari, which is a shitty team, and just sticks it out and develops that car, and then win-- I mean, it's hard to under, under count him.

    3. PAPeter Attia2:32:48

       Yeah. I, I, I, I would say, look, if you a- if you put a gun to my head and said, "Who's second best?" I'd put Schumacher.

    4. DSDax Shepard2:32:59

       Mm.

    5. PAPeter Attia2:33:00

       Yeah.

    6. DSDax Shepard2:33:01

       But, and, and Max isn't done.

    7. PAPeter Attia2:33:02

       But, but that could be Max soon, right?

    8. DSDax Shepard2:33:04

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    9. PAPeter Attia2:33:04

       Like, give, give Max another five years, and maybe it's gonna be Max number two. And you never know, maybe one day I will even say Max is the greatest of all time.

    10. DSDax Shepard2:33:12

        Yeah. It, well, the, the fun thing ahead, and I don't want it for him, 'cause I want him to just be the most winningest champion of all time, but Red Bull will have an evolution with the rule changes. And I, I'm actually most excited about seeing Max driving the second fastest car once again, 'cause I think that was the most exciting thing ever-

    11. PAPeter Attia2:33:33

        Yeah

    12. DSDax Shepard2:33:33

        ... that he just had to out drive Lewis, and did consistently. Yeah. [laughs]

    13. PAPeter Attia2:33:41

        Well, my friend.

    14. DSDax Shepard2:33:42

        Thanks for having me to, uh, to learn more about Senna. He's certainly a, uh ... Yeah, it's bigger than a driver. He's got a, some kind of a rhythm to him that's really intriguing.

25. 2:33:55 – 2:36:26

    Interlagos in Sao Paulo Brazil is always an incredible experience

    1. PAPeter Attia2:33:55

       Have you been to Brazil?

    2. DSDax Shepard2:33:56

       There's an artistry to him that Schumacher doesn't have. There's some kind of artistry for sure to Senna-

    3. PAPeter Attia2:34:04

       Yeah

    4. DSDax Shepard2:34:04

       ... that captivates the emotions a lot more.

    5. PAPeter Attia2:34:08

       Yeah. Uh, absolutely. Have you, have you ever been to, to Sao Paulo?

    6. DSDax Shepard2:34:11

       No. I have not been to anywhere in South America. That's where they keep the cocaine, so I've [laughs] stayed away. [laughs]

    7. PAPeter Attia2:34:19

       They have farm-to-table cocaine there.

    8. DSDax Shepard2:34:20

       [laughs]

    9. PAPeter Attia2:34:22

       Guys are stomping on it in the background, and then it comes right in the door.

    10. DSDax Shepard2:34:25

        [laughs] I wanna go. I wanna go desperately.

    11. PAPeter Attia2:34:28

        You should, you should, you gotta come to Interlagos with us one year.

    12. DSDax Shepard2:34:30

        Yeah, yeah.

    13. PAPeter Attia2:34:30

        We go every single year. It is, it is, uh, it is the most incredible experience. And you, y- you know, uh, we also usually go to the cemetery every year as well.

    14. DSDax Shepard2:34:41

        Oh, okay.

    15. PAPeter Attia2:34:42

        And-

    16. DSDax Shepard2:34:42

        He's buried there

    17. PAPeter Attia2:34:43

        ... he is buried in Sao Paulo, um, in a beautiful cemetery in the middle of the city. You know, s- Sao Paulo is so big it's hard to believe. Like, we don't have a reference for that. Like-

    18. DSDax Shepard2:34:51

        Okay

    19. PAPeter Attia2:34:52

        ... there's no, it's not like LA, Chicago, New York big.

    20. DSDax Shepard2:34:55

        Geographically-

    21. PAPeter Attia2:34:55

        Yes

    22. DSDax Shepard2:34:55

        ... or just popu- Okay.

    23. PAPeter Attia2:34:57

        Both.

    24. DSDax Shepard2:34:57

        Okay.

    25. PAPeter Attia2:34:57

        Like-

    26. DSDax Shepard2:34:58

        Was there like 25 million people there or something?

    27. PAPeter Attia2:35:00

        Yeah, probably close to 30 million people.

    28. DSDax Shepard2:35:01

        Okay.

    29. PAPeter Attia2:35:02

        And when you're in this middle, like our, we always stay at a hotel in the middle of the city.

    30. DSDax Shepard2:35:05

        Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:41:39