EVERY SPOKEN WORD
105 min read · 21,383 words- 0:00 – 0:17
Intro
- KSKara Swisher
We're having a good day here over at Pivot.
- SGScott Galloway
Oh, my God.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, my God. Let's just get wet.
- SGScott Galloway
Jesus.
- KSKara Swisher
Liberated.
- SGScott Galloway
Literally.
- KSKara Swisher
(instrumental music plays) Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.
- SGScott Galloway
And I'm Scott Galloway.
- 0:17 – 21:24
Trump and Elon’s Messy Breakup
- SGScott Galloway
- KSKara Swisher
And it's liberation day.
- SGScott Galloway
When I heard about these two... (laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
When I saw the tweet where basically-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
... the fastest zero to you're a pedophile land speed record set-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, amazing.
- SGScott Galloway
... from Elon Musk-
- KSKara Swisher
Amazing.
- SGScott Galloway
... I gotta be honest, the blood flow came back.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, did it?
- SGScott Galloway
The blood flow came back. This is-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, I'm even hard. Uh, Scott is even harder. (laughs)
- SGScott Galloway
Oh, my God. Oh, my God.
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs) What?
- SGScott Galloway
Mean Girls except with old men.
- KSKara Swisher
The first break up of Pride. Oh, my God. Let's explain what's happening here 'cause-
- SGScott Galloway
Okay.
- KSKara Swisher
Uh, listen, Trump-Elon bromance is officially over, let's just say. Let's- they have broken up. This is like Housewives of New York, like, but times 20, on steroids. The two men laid into each other publicly on Thursday. This is after, like, troubling, a couple, a week or so of troubling as Elon left and they had that nice little Oval Office thing. But today, it- it broke hard, real hard, speaking of hard, um, with Trump expressing his anger and frustration after Elon called his Big Beautiful Bill a disgusting abomination, which is fantastic. Sitting in the Oval Office with Germany's chancellor, Trump suggested Elon was suffering from Trump derangement syndrome, which is something Elon's accused people of. Meanwhile, Elon started shit posting on X in real time saying, "Without me, Trump would have lost the election," and such ingratitude. He's probably correct. Trump later threatened to cut Elon's government contracts and subtees- subsidies to which Elon replied, "In light of the President's statement about cancellation of my government contracts, SpaceX will d- be- begin de- decommissioning its Dragon spacecraft immediately." This is what NASA uses to do everything right now. Um, it's just get- it's just ugliness. And then, of course, he threw in a pedophile thing around, um, around Epstein, saying Trump was in the Epstein files, that's why they didn't release them. It's- that's just in the hour it happened. Um, Trump also had no qualms about referencing El- Elon's black eye in the Oval Office last week. Let's listen.
- SPSpeaker
You saw a man who was very happy when he stood behind the oval desk, and, uh, even with a black eye, I said, "Do you want a little makeup? We'll get you a little makeup."
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs) .
- SPSpeaker
But he said, "No, I don't think so," which is interesting and very nice. He wants to be who he is, so you could make that statement too, I guess. Look, Elon and I had a great relationship. Uh, I don't know if it will anymore.
- KSKara Swisher
Don't know if he will. This is, like, such a great break up. I'll note, I've been talking about this breakup for a while now. I knew this day was coming-
- SGScott Galloway
You did.
- KSKara Swisher
... and how it would go down.
- SGScott Galloway
You predicted it.
- KSKara Swisher
I did. Let's listen to what I said back in the fall. It's like two, like, desperate, people desperate for attention sponges fighting with each other. This is Highlander to me. There can be only one. I think they're gonna have such a falling out, it's gonna be delicious to watch when it comes. All right, it's delicious. Scott, it was just a week ago these two were s- doing this lovely sendoff in the Oval Office, but it was weird for sure. Um, what do you make of how ugly it got end so fast? I mean, as hard as you are, um...
- SGScott Galloway
That's something I haven't heard from a woman in 15 years.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, I know. I had to do it. I have t- it's clear. Just a couple more, these two toddlers continue to throw shit at each other. Elon posted, he w- as I said, dropping a really big bomb that Trump is in the Epstein files. He responded yes to a post about impeaching Trump and replacing with J.D. Vance. The girls are fighting is trending on X. I'm just gonna read a couple more tweets. "This is like Kendrick versus Drake but with two Drakes." Ashley St. Clair, who just had Elon's baby, alleged baby, "Hey, real Donald Trump, let me know if you need any breakup advice." Kanye West weighed in, saying, "Bros, please know we love you both so much." Thanks, Kanye. There's a tweet making fun of David Sacks asking to be picked up at the White House 'cause he's scared. Um, what do you- what do you think's happened here, Scott? I mean, besides e- enjoyment for you and I, and the rest of the world.
- 21:24 – 35:02
Trump's Executive Orders and China Trade Talks
- KSKara Swisher
probably tomorrow. Scott, we're back. Perhaps in an attempt to steer the conversation away from Elon Musk, President Trump issued a series of executive orders on Wednesday night. This is how he governs, by, by fiat, or tries to. These include a new travel ban that restricts the entry of people into the US from more than a dozen countries, mostly from the Middle East and Africa, an investigation into, uh, former President Joe Biden and his aides. Trump is having the White House Counsel and Attorney General Pam Bonney examine whether some of President, uh, presi- former President Biden's presidential actions were legally invalid, claiming aides acted without his knowledge. Biden has called this ridiculous and false. An order blocking Harvard's international students from entering the country. Harvard called this illegal, by the way. Trump also called on Secretary of State Marco Rubio, uh, to begin revoking visas of current foreign students in the, at the university. I mean, he just can't stop. He, he cannot stop these things. Um, and when it comes to tariffs, President Trump is still perfecting the art of the deal with China's President Xi. Trump posted on Truth Social earlier this week that Xi is, quote, "Very tough and extremely hard to make a, a, a deal with." Chinese state media reported on Thursday that the two leaders finally had their long-awaited phone chat, a call initiated by Trump. This is the first known formal contact between the two since Trump's inauguration. Trump has reportedly been obsessed with this Xi call, according to Politico, convinced he can hash things out. Um, China has leverage. It halted, uh, exports of rare earth m- magnets in April as the trade war was escalating. This is really problematic. US and European automakers, uh, say they're running out of these magnets, which are needed for EV motors, windshield wipers, brake sensors and more. Some companies are considering shifting production to China to avoid export restrictions, building electric motors there, or shifting US-made motors to China to install these magnets. Of course, it's against the goal of bringing, uh, manufacturing back to the US. The opposite might happen. So, talk a little bit about these, these executive orders first and then... I, I think China's winning this. T- Oh God, Trump is so incompetent. I can't even with, with the Chinese. Um, but, uh, let's talk about these orders 'cause this is what he does when he feels out of control, presumably.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah. I don't, I, I, (sighs) I feel as if you have someone who walks up to a poker t- p- table, goes all in, and then negotiates, and then folds before anyone else responds. And I wonder if, I'm, I'm, you know, I believe a lot of this, his, his, um, policies on immigration are still his kind of number one policy, so I think he keeps saying, "Let's push it further and further," 'cause people seem to respond, you know, negatively. But it's still his kind of number one most approved approach. And these images of ICE rounding up people are shocking, but I think there's a certain element of his con- his base that actually thinks, "Finally, we're getting serious about this." Uh, I, I th- agree with you. I think China holds all the cards here, because while the tariffs...They've done math, but what they haven't calculated was what does the math actually mean on the other side of the equation? And that is while we can probably hurt Chi- the Chinese economy more than ours, China is an export economy. It doesn't have the same level of internal consumption that we have. Only 17% of our GDP is based on exports, so we're actually quite a self-sufficient society despite all the calls that, you know, we need to re-sure everything. We're actually more self-sufficient across energy, even manufacturing than people believe. The... But what, what they failed to take into account is our pain thresholds, and that is unless you're gonna... So for example, let's look at Europe. Europe is wringing its hands over what to do with Ukraine. I mean, they, they, they're supportive of the Ukrainian army. Uh, they've given money. They've actually given more money than us, but they would never... Uh, I don't think they would consider putting a boot on the ground. Meanwhile, uh, Putin continues to call up more people despite coming up on a million young men either killed or wounded. I mean, so (laughs) when you're calculating the calculus, you would think, "Well, okay, the EU has a $19 trillion economy. The Russian economy is two trillion, has triple the population, we should be able to kick their ass in a war." But they're not taking into account the pain thresholds of the respective parties, and that's what I think we're missing or Trump is missing with respect to negotiating with Xi. Xi doesn't... Xi's not afraid to have, to put three, five, 10 million Chinese out of work. He's not afraid... They're... We let our thoroughbreds run. We are so obsessed with the stock market and any hit to prosperity, we're worried that Americans are gonna revolt. Xi's not afraid to put companies out of business even if it means a decline or a massive loss in capital. So I think he's vastly underestimated. I... The bottom line is, I just don't think Xi scares this easily, and I think they're having a lot of productive conversations with nations and trade agreements that they didn't think were possible just 100 days ago. So I agree with you, I think Xi has all the cards here.
- KSKara Swisher
He does. I mean, Trump is so badly playing this. And one of the, these orders, and I know you have talked about them as a dis- a distraction, whether it's the Biden one or the travel bans or the students, blocking Harvard's international students from entering the country, they still create all kinds of havoc in terms of whatever it happens. Like, even if ultimately they get pushed back, you have to spend time getting a lawyer, you have to spend time doing the fight, you have to spend time... So I don't think they're just a distraction. They're meant to, to... You know, they're like flash bombs, you know? Like, you're, you can't see for a minute. And, uh, they do have real world impact, and that's the point of them, is to do that, even if they get overturned 'cause maybe 20 of them, they do 20 and 17 get overturned, but three don't, right? And that's what they're doing here. Um, I do think it matters that they're creating a situation putting Harvard on its back heel almost constantly. Even if in the end Harvard will win, they'll, they'll win with a lot of damage. Um, and same thing with all these other things. And again, as linking to China, it gives China an advantage. It gives China, it gives all our enemies an advantage for us to be both petty and bullying when we don't have the cards, right? It just doesn't... We just don't have the cards here if you're playing poker, I suppose. Um, but I think they have, especially with the things they have like magnets, manufacturing, everything else, this is what companies will do. They will do what it takes to create economic benefit for themselves, and if that means, uh, shifting to production in China, that's exactly what they'll do, so the opposite of what Trump wanted.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, to be fair, I think Trump's initial instincts around a real trade asymmetry with China was, was correct. Uh, their, the, the IP flow into China is one way. They take Tesla and, uh, Apple technology and upscaling, and then they don't let it leave, and there's no... They, they let their media companies into the US, but they don't let ours in. So the IP flow is one way. There's a trade... There's real valid concerns. But to go to the Norm MacDonald joke, the late comedian, he said... (laughs) He had this great bit on... I don't know if you are history buffs, but, uh, if you've heard of this country called Germany, they decided twice last century to declare war on the world. And quite fa- at a very basic level, that's why Hitler lost, was he was absolutely blitzkrieged, basically took over France in two weeks, conquered most of Europe in several months, was threatening to take over Britain, wanted to negotiate, but Chamberlain said, "I'll let you keep the empire. I want Europe." Then who knows what would have happened. But his mistake was he decided to declare war on Russia. And if you wanted to isolate China and have really strong, a really strong hand to negotiate better terms on IP, where they steal it and sell it back to us more inexpensively, whatever it might be, wouldn't you wanna sign up the EU and Latin America or would you declare war on EU (laughs) and Latin America at the same time, thereby creating... We were, we were allies with Russia 'cause Germany was so aggressive. He has turned our strongest allies into, quite frankly, sympathetic to China. I had dinner, I had dinner with the C- I had s- dinner with the CEO of Alibaba, wonderful guy. He was in Europe roaming around talking to European companies about them using the BabaCloud, because for the first time, AWS, people are having concerns about using, European companies are having concerns about using Azure or AWS. So this is just... The, the worst thing, the... It is terrible to be fighting with your allies, but what's worse is to be fighting without your allies.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Or also damaging the most, the strongest parts of this country, not just attacking allies, attacking-... things in this country, whether it's Harvard or scientists. It's a constant attack on people, our strongest members, right, of, of our country, and what we can do. Immigrants who bring innovation. Universities, who may m- have to have reform, but not from the government. They should ... Not this way. Um, you know, the- there's this idea that I keep thinking about is, a lot of the stuff Trump is talking about, like the s- uh, the problem with trade with China, or too much wokeness, or t- whatever it h- just pick whatever you want. Everyone I know is like ... could, could agree with some of the direction, but every single person, including a lot of Trump supporters are like, "Yeah, but not this." Like, you're seeing so many interviews with Trump people, like, "I didn't think he'd ..." You know, this, this is sort of the leopard ate my face idea. Um, but like, not like this, not this, not this. And it just is, it's overkill, and the, the executive orders are the, the expression of that. These crazy fucking executive ... He looks like such a chump by doing these. But at the same time, you know, w- even though he accuses Elon of being sort of the toddler, I think that's what they're doing, he's the toddler. He's the actual toddler. Uh, Elon's just one of the toddlers running around the White House. But e- this is what he's doing, just making a mess and then ...
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah. But just to go to-
- KSKara Swisher
... with, to no strategic value.
- SGScott Galloway
Go ahead. Just to go to cosplay Henry Kissinger here ...
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
And I won't even say Marco Rubio, but ...
- KSKara Swisher
Mm.
- SGScott Galloway
A, a real secretary of state, um, in terms of real politic. You know, they're going after Harvard under the auspices, and this is, there's never been a flag this false of anti-Semitism. And I believe, for example, if you really cared about, say, um ... I won't even call it anti-Semitism, but say you cared about the war in the Middle East, the, the, the, the Israeli-Gaza conflict, whate- whatever you wanna call it. I don't believe the key is Israel or Hamas. I believe the key is Qatar. I think if you wanted those hostages released and you wanted some path to, uh, uh, sustainable peace, you would put massive pressure on Qatar, who has been funding the tunnels and the bombs and providing safe haven for the senior leader, leadership of Hamas. I believe that's the key. And let me ask you this. Do you think, do you think Trump is really gonna bring about pressure and is really concerned, uh, with a country that he just accepted a $400 million plane from? So ... a- and then the notion that they, they give a shit about anti-Semitism at Harvard. There have been three very scary anti-Semitic attacks. Two young, lovely, engaged people who were working at the embassy were shot down and murdered. Governor Shapiro, who his house ... someone tried to burn down his house, um, who was blatantly anti-Semitic. And there was an attack in Boulder, Colorado, where an Egyptian man used a makeshift flamethrower and Molotov cocktails to attack a group, uh, participating in a solidarity walk for the hostages in Gaza. Has the president referenced any of those things?
- KSKara Swisher
No. No. No.
- SGScott Galloway
But quote-unquote, "He needs to go after anti-Semitism at these universities."
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. It's all nonsense. It's all ... absolutely.
- SGScott Galloway
And, and we've discussed the, we've discussed the, just the economics here. Just think about it as an export. The export of education, letting foreign students into our universities is a bigger business for us than us selling our movies and TV shows overseas. So, uh, this is all ... i- i- i- it's just such a ... I- I'm just trying to think how you could ... and there's a certain brilliance to this if you thought, "How do I reduce our prosperity as elegantly and as efficiently as possible?"
- KSKara Swisher
And get some for myself and then be corrupt at the same time.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
In some ways ... I have to say, I kind of like ... even though Elon's a heinous piece of shit, as you noticed, um, I can see possibly a penny dropping with him with this bill. I think it is totally self-interested. At the same time, he can do math, right? Like, he c- he can't even put up with this, right? Like, he c- he's like, "No." Um, uh, you know, ultimately, a lot of business people in this country, even if you're as unhinged as Elon are, are globalists, right? Like, if you wanna use that term, even though it's- c- it has negative connotations. They, they live in a global world, these c- our companies in the United States, and Trump is m- systematically ruining their chances across. Anyway, we have to go on a quick break. When we come back, the next name on Trump's naughty
- 35:02 – 39:11
Trump Lashes Out at Fed Chair
- KSKara Swisher
list, Jerome Powell. Scott, we're back with more news. President Trump is lashing out at Fed Chair, Jerome Powell, urging him to cut interest rates following the release of the ADP jobs reports. The report shows private payrolls ticking up by only 37,000 when the Dow Jones forecasted 110,000. The president posted on Truth Social calling the Fed chair, "Too late Powell" and "Unbelievable." Trump and Powell met at the White House last week, but the conversation was, uh, was reportedly confrontational. You think? He wanted to push him out. I ... He may try to do that. I don't think he's allowed. Again, again, create chaos, try to do something that's potentially illegal, but who cares? How do you imagine this is gonna end? He's tr- gonna try to push him out or maybe he can't sustain the energy to do so and he'll move on to his next ridiculous executive order.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, I don't think he can. I don't think Chairman Powell ... uh, uh, Chair Powell stared America in the face, he stared, uh, senators on th- the right side and on the left side, everyone from Elizabeth Warren to Ted Cruz who were calling for interest rate cuts and said, "No, inflation (laughs) inflation is, is the enemy here and we are going to fight inflation." And he tamped down inflation by raising interest rates at the greatest escalation over a 15-month period in history. And there was huge p- he does not n- get nearly the credit he deserves for the, for the unfolding crisis that never unfolded because he took ...... a leadership position. The OECD has cut its growth forecast for the US from 3.2% to 1.6. They have cut that in half. And these numbers sound small, but when you go from 3.2% to 1.6 on a $27 trillion economy, you're talking about a loss of growth of $400 billion in business. That is real cabbage. And they cited, it was very simple, it's insecurity over tariffs and global trade and a, and, um, uh, a weakened or uncertain immigration policy. So, we have growth coming down, and they're also predicting that inflation is beginning to spike. That is really... If you wanna see, I don't even like to use the word impeach because that's when (laughs) people a- accuse, uh, the left fairly of politicizing certain things that shouldn't be politicized. But if you could imagine a scenario where Trump was impeached, I don't think it would be corruption. I would think if all of a sudden... And there's a scenario here where inflation goes rampant, absolutely rampant, and Powell is just not gonna participate in that. And, and you're already seeing an uptick in inflation. You're seeing some job destruction, although I don't know if that's at the hands of AI. I think it's too early to tell what's going on. If you look at the market right now, to be fair, and I've been surprised by this, the market is only about 3% off of all-time highs. It's had one of its best Mays in the last several years. Now, a few things are going on. One, either the economy has decided or the market has decided, "You know, Trump's policies are not that bad. Maybe, maybe they're not as bad as everybody says." Or people have decided, "He's not serious. None of this is gonna hold. The courts are gonna swap, slap all of this away. It's all a giant fucking distraction, and he always chickens out." Or they've said, "You know what? At the end of the day, the headline news around the shit going on at a government level isn't as important as we think, that the American economy is so incredible, it just kinda grinds on." People are using, learning how to use AI. They're still going to the grocery store. They're still taking vacations. Companies are still innovating. They're still selling. People are buying. People are still hiring. 'Cause if you look at the economic data and you look at the market right now, you can cherry-pick pieces of data that guys like me who are catastrophists like to call on, but I've actually been shocked at how resilient the economy is right now. But Chairman Powell is not gonna be muscled around by anybody.
- KSKara Swisher
Not gonna be muscled around. No, he's not. He's g- uh, Trump might try it when he get- if he gets desperate enough. We'll see. I mean, he ca- he can only put out so many fires. He, he does have to settle with Musk and hope that he calms down because if he's fighting with this person, this person, this person, this person, it's really gonna start to mount
- 39:11 – 50:46
Paramount’s Settlement with Trump
- KSKara Swisher
as chaos, you know, sort of a chaos monkey. Um, the California State Senate is looking into Paramount's reported settlement offer to President Trump over his lawsuit alleging mental anguish from the editing of a 60 Minutes interview, uh, with Kamala Harris. Um, Paramount reported-
- SGScott Galloway
That's so anguish. (laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs) Oh, my God. Anyway, whatever. They can try it. Paramount reportedly offered Trump a $15 million settlement, which the president did not think was enough. California Democrats express concern that the offer, which comes as the company hopes for a merger approval from the administration, raises bribery questions. A letter sent to former news, uh, CBS News officials also mentions concern about the implications for journalism and integrity of corporate governance. Former 60 Minutes EP and the former CEO of CBS News have been invited to testify voluntary. They left after not agreeing with, uh, Shari Redstone about what she was doing. Um, uh, it's interesting. She's in a real jam. Um, uh, as a quick note, just a- another media company who's in a real jam, over at Warner Bros. Discovery, shareholders rejected a pay package for CEO David Zaslav that would have given him a 4% raise, upping his pay to $51.9 million. Warner Bros. Discovery has seen its revenue decline 10% in the last year, and the stock is quite off from when the merger happened. Um, but talk a little bit about this case 'cause I think this is really... 'Cause sh- they are in a bind because if they do this settlement, they're gonna get bribery allegations eventually. I mean, the whole thing, and, and of course, the Trump administration, the coin-op Trump administration, would like some vig for, for whatever, in whatever way it happens to be, for approving this. Um, they've completely corrupted the process, even, you know, the whole process of, of merger approval. And they have willing, um, supplicants at the FTC, um, and the FCC to do this.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, I, uh, first off, re- regarding Trump's claimed anguish and mental-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
... health struggles, I don't think that's anything to joke about. And my advice for him is, the way I approach mental health is the same way I approach sex, and that is I always come first.
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs)
- SGScott Galloway
(laughs) He's back. Take that. Take that, Mister Wonderful.
- KSKara Swisher
Why didn't you tell that joke on Fears, Marty?
- SGScott Galloway
Take that.
- KSKara Swisher
Anyway, what, what do you think of... This is a really interesting problem for this company.
- SGScott Galloway
This perfectly embodies the, the fulcrum or the tension that is happening across corporate America right now. And that is, the easiest thing to do is to stay out of his crosshairs and not be the subject of some crazy, punitive, uh, one-off tariff that takes your stock down, and your shareholders and your board say, "Boss, couldn't you have just kept quiet or stayed out of his way?" And Shari is sitting on a melting ice cube. She was worth 20 billion two years ago. Last year, she was worth 10 billion. Now she's worth four billion. And if she doesn't sell this thing to some billionaire who wants to go to the Academy Awards soon, she's gonna be worth two billion. So her attitude is, "Fine, 60 Minutes. It's great to be a fucking purist, but I don't wanna be the one that, that turned, that took my father's legacy and turned it from 20 billion into two to one." Uh, you know, she just wants her money. So paying this guy $10 million-... uh, the idea of the lack of integrity or fidelity to journalistic or First Amendment clauses, she's like, you know, "Well, it sucks to be a grown-up. Money's more important to me." That's the same calculus that Bob Iger made. That's the same calculus that Paul Weiss made when they decided to bend a knee and do fr- pro bono work for Trump-related causes. And unfortunately, the line of people waiting to, uh, ignore the f- any fidelity to American values or the Constitution or the rights of free speech, the line of people in the Fortune 500 that is willing, um, to enter that room, there is no line. No one's done it. I can't think of anyone o- uh, I, I wanna salute Harvard, President Harper, who stood up and said, "No." Columbia tried to deal with him. Uh, l- Columbia's gotten a lot of shit for it. But the reality is Columbia thought they could say, "Okay, maybe we can make some, uh, consolations here and move on." And then they came back with sort of this mind control and thought control, and they've given up. Harvard didn't even go there. Harvard's saying, "No, the reason we have so much money..." Also, Harvard has a lot of powerful people. But the list th- that, the list of the names of corporate CEOs who have just bl- uh, overtly, explicitly stood up and said, "No," there is no one. Uh, I mean, I mean, maybe the guy at, maybe the guy at Costco who talked about DEI, but no one has stood up and said, "What's going on here is anti-American." And their, their shareholder fiduciary hat kicks in and goes, "Just cut him a check for 10 million and sell this bag of shit called Paramount that's declining every fucking day." Your thoughts?
- KSKara Swisher
I think that, that she, she, uh, I think she's doing untold damage to the, to the brand, uh, uh, whatever's left of it, right? I, I think it just, she's literally selling the seed corn. And, uh, I don't know if she has a choice, but on the other end, she's gonna get a bribery, um, eventually. The Democrats will be back in power, and she will face that, right? And I don't think she's gonna get out of this. I think she's in a jam of beyond jams. So whatever choice she makes is a bad one, like every single choice. And what's interesting is the, uh, new owners, if they really think this is a good idea, I can't imagine, um, they're gonna be, they're sort of, they have a tainted fruit, right? They have a, a poisoned f- fruit here because all these reporters are gonna be now more difficult than ever. You have a brand. Maybe that brand should end. I don't know if 60 Minutes should end. It's, that's up to their owners. Um, but they certainly are trading away any kind of, um, credibility. I just, there's no good answer here for these people. I mean, and, uh, you're right. This is, uh, it doesn't matter really because these, these, these media companies are worth less and less every year unless, unless they make significant changes. Um, so I guess a new owner might try something fresh, the new owners with lots of money. Um, so any way you get there is a good way. Um, but it definitely is, is disappointing on every level. Um, and as to Warner Brothers Discovery, it's just not, you know, he's making a lot of money, and the company's still struggling to figure out which way to go. I would assume a lot of mergers here, presumably, correct? I mean, I don't know.
- SGScott Galloway
Oh, there's gotta be huge consolidation. And, and, um, I s- Warner Brothers board is the worst board in America. They've managed to destroy so m- two-thirds of shareholder value. Uh, their debt just got downgraded to junk, and yet they've, the compensation committee at this board has decided to pay David Zaslav a third of a billion dollars. I mean, that's just-
- KSKara Swisher
Well, they're doing that because it's based on the cutting of the debt, right? Is that correct? That's why he's-
- SGScott Galloway
Well, his, I'm sure that's how they rationalized it, but if-
- KSKara Swisher
No, it is. That's, uh, I mean-
- SGScott Galloway
But-
- KSKara Swisher
... Bill Cohen wrote a good piece about it. It's okay.
- SGScott Galloway
But, okay, but fine. And the tail will always wag the dog here. Uh, if, if that's the case, they should fire the guy (laughs) because it just is an affront to shareholders to be taking, uh, uh, to be paying someone a third of a billion dollars when shareholders have lost two-thirds of their value. I, I don't care what your compensation package was. You either say, "Boss, we need to revisit your compensation package," or, "We're gonna have to make a change in leadership." And the, but just going back to Shari Redstone, I don't, and I'm not a lawyer, but I don't see how she can be found guilty of saying, "Look, the president wanted a... We settle cases out of court all the time because we decide that they're a nuisance, and it's worth it just to move on with our business, and that's what we did here." So I think some of this notion that it's a, quote-unquote, "bribe," is a little bit of left-wing posturing. I don't think there's a legal case against her. CEOs, CEOs pay off lawsuits all the time to just move on. But going back, um-
- KSKara Swisher
Well, can I just make a point on that? They're still gonna come at her. They're gonna still, the bribery thing, whether it sticks or not, they're gonna go for it, I think.
- SGScott Galloway
When you say they, who do you mean?
- KSKara Swisher
The, the, who, the, the California, or the Democrats, or whatever. I think she's not, she's gonna be in litigation for a very long time.
- SGScott Galloway
Oh, I think they'll move on to bigger fish to fry.
- KSKara Swisher
Really? Interesting. Okay.
- SPSpeaker
We'll see.
- SGScott Galloway
I mean, I don't, what do you, do you think there's re- really a case here? They settle suits all the time.
- KSKara Swisher
Uh, I guess. Th- this one's particularly ridiculous. Like, it's particularly, like, uh, you know, they're all somewhat ridiculous. But I suspect the ABC one, there was probably emails. There was probably embarrassments. In this case, it's just ridiculous. And with the, with these executives quitting, it's just not a good look. The whole thing is, is just, it brings down a brand and unnecessarily. And I get they have to make weird contortions 'cause of Trump, but they're looking particularly bad in the way they're behaving, um, it seems.
- SGScott Galloway
But if you look at all the points of light here or the path to an autocracy, or fascism, or a kleptocracy, pick your favorite, you know, oppressive form of government, it's try and put a chill on the press, right? Now, that's clear. And then the most recent one, let's, let's try and normalize political violence against our adversaries. I don't know if you know about (laughs) most recently, but Trump was talking about pardoning, pardoning the people who planned-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- 50:46 – 55:26
Predictions
- KSKara Swisher
all right, Scott. One more, uh, quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Okay, Scott. Let's hear a prediction.
- SGScott Galloway
Okay, so my prediction is sort of a boring one. But Trump is feeling his oats around the macho steel industry, that he's, he threatened to take tariffs from 25% to 50%. And as a result, um, you've seen a surge in the stock prices of our few remaining, um, steel manufacturers. Cleveland-Cliffs jumped 22%, which for a boring manufacturing stock is enormous. Uh, Steel Dynamics jumped 13%, Nucor up 12%, Vanek Steel, ETX rose more, uh, than 3%. And, uh, just that alone, there are few prosperity killers like a steel tariff. Because here's the thing. This is an unimportant small industry. This is not a big business. It's not an important business. And we can easily import steel from Mexico and Canada. We don't even have to have the security risk of importing it in from China. And importing it in from Japan, which is a hugely important ally of which our ships that we're worried about building def- actually defend Japan. But we've decided this is super important. And, but what it will do ... While actually supporting very few employees or growing the business a great deal, what it will do is raise the costs of housing and cars dramatically. And by virtue of the fact of these companies that are sleepy companies, when you see their stock price accelerate, it's based on the following: that these companies are gonna be able to charge usurious prices now that the tariffs are going from 25 to 50%. And folks, who do you think is going to pay for that increase in stock price? Consumers buying cars. Consumers buying housing. So my prediction is, as has happened with the taco trade, coined by Financial Times journalist Robert Armstrong, you are going to see Trump back down on the steel tariffs when he starts to recognize and gets calls from the many more people than the small union or the small number of employees benefiting from the increase in these tariffs. And the huge number of consumers, automobile, and, and homebuilders that are gonna get punished radically by this. He will back off the tariffs, and we will see the stocks of these companies return to their pre-tariff prices. In sum, my prediction is Cleveland-Cliffs and Steel Dynamics give up all the gains, as evidenced by what has ha- taken place with the taco trade thus far, uh, in 2025.
- KSKara Swisher
Well, we'll turn our attentions then also to China.
- SGScott Galloway
That was a snoozer, wasn't it? (laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
That's a snoozer, I was. Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
That's a snoozer.
- KSKara Swisher
Why don't you yell at Piers Morgan again?
- SGScott Galloway
That's a snoozer.
- KSKara Swisher
You used up all your juice on that one.
- SGScott Galloway
I'm done.
- KSKara Swisher
That's what you did. That's okay.
- SGScott Galloway
I'm out.
- KSKara Swisher
You're done, you're done. Um-
- SGScott Galloway
All right. Can I call you an Uber? I'm going to sleep.
- KSKara Swisher
Why don't you go, "Steel trade is depravity."
- SGScott Galloway
There you go.
- KSKara Swisher
De- say depravity. Yell depravity one more time for me.
- SGScott Galloway
No, I won't. I can't. Sorry, Kara. I'm not your-
- KSKara Swisher
Okay.
- SGScott Galloway
I'm not your Fifi the dancing poodle here to entertain you.
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs)
- SGScott Galloway
You eating your ice, oysters on the bay, talking, injecting jellyfish semen into your blood such so you can look 61 again.
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs)
- SGScott Galloway
I will not be a part of your circus of health.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay. Elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, this week on property markets, you spoke to Robert Armstrong, the US financial commentator for the Financial Times, the person who coined Trump's favorite phrase, taco trade, which is, "Trump always chickens out." Let's listen to a clip.
- SPSpeaker
The best thing about the president's tariff policy is the chickening out. Hooray for chickening out. I'm all for it, and I hope that it may continue forever. So the idea that I've made this stupid gag, and I might actually, at the margin, make the president less likely to chicken out is a very negative unintended consequence I wish, if possible, to wash my hands off of.
- KSKara Swisher
That's funny, the chickening out. (laughs)
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah. Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
That's such a good word, ch- chicken. Bok, bok, bok. Um, okay. That's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week. Scott, read us out.
- SGScott Galloway
Today's show was produced by Lara Nehmiasooi, Marcus Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie and Todd interviewed this episode. Thanks also to Drew Borows, Mia Silverio, and Dan Chalon. Nishak Kurwaz, Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, have a good weekend. I'm rooting for the Bullets.
Episode duration: 55:27
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