PivotElon’s Ketamine Denial Hits New High | Pivot
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
110 min read · 22,398 words- 0:00 – 6:09
Intro
- KSKara Swisher
Just so you know, excessive ketamine causes you to pee too much.
- SGScott Galloway
We've got the world's most powerful man, the President, and the world's wealthiest man both wearing diapers. (instrumental music)
- KSKara Swisher
Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.
- SGScott Galloway
And I'm Scott Galloway.
- KSKara Swisher
How you doing, Scott? Where are you? What, what is behind you?
- SGScott Galloway
Uh...
- KSKara Swisher
Is that another AI situation?
- SGScott Galloway
(laughs) Another situation. No, I'm in, uh, I'm in the Faena Hotel in South Beach. I was in-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, you're in the-
- SGScott Galloway
... Paris over the weekend. I went to the French Open, which was lovely.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
And, um, then I jumped on a plane yesterday and came here. I forgot my computer on the plane.
- KSKara Swisher
What?
- SGScott Galloway
Which is par for the course.
- KSKara Swisher
What do you mean you forgot your computer on the plane?
- SGScott Galloway
My third computer I've left on a plane, um, this year.
- KSKara Swisher
Wow.
- SGScott Galloway
Year to date, I've left three computers on planes.
- KSKara Swisher
Why?
- SGScott Galloway
Um, why? Because if my dick wasn't attached, you'd find it on a card table next to a script of Goodfellas in SoHo, Kara.
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs) I'm so glad I didn't find that.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
What would I do with it if I found your dick? That's an interesting question.
- SGScott Galloway
There you go. Um, so anyways-
- KSKara Swisher
Put it in the refrigerator.
- SGScott Galloway
... I lose everything, but I'm at the- I'm safe and sound at the Faena.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
And my good friend Pablo Torittas saved my ass for bacon and got me a new Macintosh.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
And Drew and the team have fired it up, and now I'm doing podcasts from a-
- 6:09 – 14:41
Sen. Ernst: “We All Are Going to Die”
- KSKara Swisher
But first, Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa had some very comforting words about Medicaid cuts for constituents at a town hall on Friday.
- JEJoni Ernst
... well, we all are going to die.
- JAJoni Ernst (clip artifact)
(laughs)
- JEJoni Ernst
So, for heaven's sakes-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, my God. But thank goodness. She's such an asshole to her constituents, but thank goodness she apologized afterwards on Instagram. Here's what she had to say. Uh-oh.
- JEJoni Ernst
I made an incorrect assumption that everyone in the auditorium understood that, yes, we are all going to perish from this Earth, so I apologize, and I'm really, really glad that I did not have to bring up the subject of the Tooth Fairy as well.
- KSKara Swisher
My God.
- SGScott Galloway
What?
- KSKara Swisher
What? What? She- I didn't- she did a non-apology apology. She was making fun of people for being angry at her. She is not- Joni, you're not Trump. Just so you know, you don't do a good job. You sound like an asshole. So it's interesting, they're all trying to cosplay Trump and none of them are good at it. So she was like, "You assholes who thought I was mad for saying we're all gonna die when people were concerned about Medicaid." I mean, she's not a serious public servant if she can't be, like, suck it up and answer a question, and then she trolls them like a 12-year-old boy. It's insane.
- SGScott Galloway
I think more importantly, do you know what, um, I have in common after my vasectomy with a Christmas tree?
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs) I know where this is going. Go ahead. Why not?
- SGScott Galloway
That we both have decorative balls.
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs) Anyway.
- SGScott Galloway
All right. Back to- back to- back to Joni.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Okay.
- SGScott Galloway
Look, the- the thing that has become an unfortunate theme in the Republican Party, and I also think across America right now, and I was just talking to Jess about this, is I think social media has created, uh, such a strong profit incentive in getting people pitted against each other and enraging them, and then, at the same time, speed-balling that rage by shoving all of the prosperity that everyone else seems to be enjoying, that people are just so upset and so angry and that they respond to the Republican Party being a little bit cruel and coarse. And I think unfortunately across the Republican Party, you're seeing this adoption of a narrative where, uh, they conflate leadership with cruelty and coarseness. And y- I just don't think you ever would've heard a senator say that.
- KSKara Swisher
I mean-
- SGScott Galloway
I- I don't-
- KSKara Swisher
I was shocked. I was sort of like, "Really?" Like, y- you're- but they're all cosplaying Trump. Is it effective? Like, think of it from a marketing point of view. It- all- I could tell you, like, no one thought it was funny. Like, I- with Trump, it might be funny, like, you might take it. Do you think it works across other- and especially, I'm sorry to tell you, Joni, doesn't work for a woman. It doesn't work for a woman to be a dick. Like, I- that's my feeling, and I hate to be sexist about it, but she seemed like such a stupid little shithead, but what do you think?
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, I- I- I think it reflects something, um, deeper and more uncomfortable about the United States, and that is we've decided that you can cut America first. Uh, okay, so we're not- we're not- we're closing down hospitals in Myanmar for people with serious diseases, or- or food kitchens in war-torn parts of Ukraine, but that somehow has been conflated with leadership to coarseness and cruelty. And I think that- I- y- these- these Republican town halls have been awful for Republicans. They make for really good TikTok moments, but I worry they're not indicative of how a lot of America feels, where America is- America feels that, okay, you have these- these Democratic elitists that after they make their money with low taxes all of a sudden get very concerned about me. 40% of American households have some sort of medical or dental debt, and every day, 210 times a day on my phone, I'm reminded about people having extraordinary lives that I'm not participating in. And then I have a social media platform that I spend five or seven hours a day on trying to convince me that it's my neighbor who's the enemy, not people pouring o- not soldiers pouring over the border in Ukraine. And I think there's just so much rage in America and so much anger against other Americans that an- an unfortunately large number of Americans kind of enjoy this harshness and this cruelty. And distinct of what Joni's doing, or Senator Ernst, I just think we've lost a little bit- a lot of at the hands of- I don't think people recognize just how- how much our discourse has been coarsened by social media, and the people have been- people have been- have people in the ti- you know, I was thinking just about dating. Do you remember- when you were in your 20s and 30s and you were dating, do you remember the politics of anyone you dated?
- KSKara Swisher
No.
- SGScott Galloway
It didn't come up. And- and you didn't- there was a general sense that as Americans we were these good people and we had a certain comity and a certain thing in common. M- you know what? Men and women liked each other. I've been thinking about this a lot. I think social media's done a great job of convincing the genders that the other gender is the problem, that men believe that women's ascent is the culprit for their descent, and that's not true at all, whereas women think it's the patriarchy and that men don't have problems, they are the problem. We've convinced the genders, the greatest alliance in history, to dislike each other.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, I think there was hatred before that. I think it's just- it becomes- it becomes manifest when it's- when she does- like, she may have been irritated at this town hall, for example, 'cause someone yelled at her. And by the way, if you're a senator, fucking man up, Joni. If someone yells at you, have the grace to be able to answer without being a douche nozzle, but, um, but I think that she- she is doing something that is coarse and rude, and I don't think it works. I think people are like, "What?" Like, "Why are you so t-" I think there is still a sense of certain decorum, and I agree with you, I was always worried about social media spilling out into the world, right? And it has, whether you're in a car, people yell at you on the street, um, you know, there's more and more and more of that, that people behave online- offline like they do online. That said, I don't think doubling down on douchery is the way to go, and I do think people are go- there's gonna be a reaction to it, um, when it's other people, not Trump. I think people get tired- people are already tired of it with Trump. I think they don't-Look, you see losses, uh, in all these places that they shouldn't be losing in, and I do think dec- calm it. I think there's a real opening for someone with calm and decency and calm it the fuck down, everybody. I do. I don't think everyone wants to stay, spend their lives as a 12-year-old asshole.
- SGScott Galloway
But it has to be decency, uh, I think... So for example, I think the real opportunity that Democrats are missing is to propose an alternative to this tax bill where we seize this enormous white space of the adult in the room, where we say, "Okay, this is our plan. Uh, we're gonna raise, uh, and, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna means test Social Security and raise the age limit. We're going to dramatically lower the exemption for, uh, the trust exemption. We are going to increase the taxes on corporations and the wealthy, and we are going to, across the board, hold Medicaid, Social Security, and military spending flat for the next 15 years and even cut it 2% a year. And within eight years, we're gonna reduce the deficit from two trillion a year to 200 billion a year." And what they would do is Fox News and CNN would all line up these bills next to each other and say, "Okay, one expands the deficit or adds to the deficit three and three-quarters trillion dollars. This one will reduce the deficit." It'll never pass. It has no hopes, but it would position the-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
... Democrats as the adults in the room, and it's still all-
- KSKara Swisher
This is Rahm Emanuel saying this, this, "Forget about the for reals, talk about what you do, whether you're gonna-"
- SGScott Galloway
But instead, we're-
- KSKara Swisher
"... make it happen or not."
- SGScott Galloway
... we're just clutching, we're clutching our pearls and, and highlighting these very real, very ugly things that are happening rather than saying, "Okay, you guys have to be more than what's bad about what they're doing." You have to propose-
- 14:41 – 21:29
Texas Age Verification Bill
- KSKara Swisher
to be like that. Um, uh, Texas gov, speaking of adults, (laughs) uh, Texas Governor Greg Abbott has signed a bill requiring an app stores to verify users' ages to protect children online. The bill, which will go into effect at the start of next year, makes Texas the second state to pass such legislation following Utah. Apple has argued this strategy will threaten the privacy of all users. They have a good argument that way. Meta argues the app stores are the best party for the job. They're trying to trade it back and forth. It's a really complex topic because it does come into privacy issues, and at the same time, we, you and I agree that they should, there's gotta be some way. I just don't know who should be policing th- this situation. Um, would we be in a better place if all states passed similar legislation? Are we better off if the, uh, the bill, you know, having hope in a bill like KOSA or whatever? What, how do you feel about this? 'Cause who is the one that should... I mean, cigarette manufacturers kinda have to have those warnings, and the people who sell the cigarettes have to wo- not sell it to kids, even though sometimes that happens, same thing with liquor. Um, how, what are your thoughts on this?
- SGScott Galloway
I feel like you know more about this than I do. My, when people come up with, uh, when they're faced with the pro- or the issue of is it at the device level or at the app level, I think the answer is yes. And that is with tobacco, I think both retailers and manufacturers face liability. Um, and my sense is, okay, in terms of age gating, it feels like it should be at the device level 'cause it w- it seems like it would be more efficient and practical-
- KSKara Swisher
Right, it would cover everybody.
- SGScott Galloway
... yeah, to say, okay, we, because we can track your activity across all apps, we have a pretty good sense for what your age is, and we don't, you know, we don't allow anyone under the age of 16 to have car keys or operate a car, so why would we let anyone under the age of 16 operate... I, I don't think anyone under the age of 16 should be able to operate a smartphone. I don't think you put a video arcade, a porn site, uh, Netflix, and a casino in a 15-year-old's pocket. I just don't think that's a good idea. And, and then they have an incentive to make it so complicated that parents can't figure out parental controls. We tried to implement parental controls for my, my son last weekend, and within about three minutes, he'd figured out the password (laughs) and reinstalled everything. So, uh, unless it's a... So I guess what I'm talking about is at the device level maybe, but I still think the app should be on the hook for, for a second layer of protection. What are your thoughts? I think you need to wear two condoms here in the US.
- KSKara Swisher
I, I think the difficulty is, uh, say, when you go to a bar, they look at your license for a second, and you keep it, so it's not a privacy issue. I think the idea of Apple collecting people's data like that seems a little troubling. It, they're-
- SGScott Galloway
Privacy?
- KSKara Swisher
Well, because they, they, they-
- SGScott Galloway
I, I don't get that argument at all.
- KSKara Swisher
Well, no, that's their argument is that you, they would be, they would be, uh, keeping the data of peoples, uh, in ways that they don't now, right? They don't know who picks up-
- SGScott Galloway
Right.
- KSKara Swisher
... their phone or whoever is. And so there, there are problematic situations of how you store that information and who knows who can see it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So there al- there, there's no question there's not a privacy issue because it's, it's a persistent, uh, validation, right? Of as opposed to, where do you have a persistent validation except with the government and your license plate? I suppose, in a way, with airlines when you fly, when you give them your data or your birthday and stuff like that. So there's always gonna be a privacy problem, and there's gonna be a, a, uh, people who steal it or, or some, you know, issues around it. But it seems to me the device is where it should be, and, and at the same time, um, th- that there i- there should be some liability for, uh, in this case, Apple is the si- well, no, they're, is the retailer, I guess, and Meta is the cigarette manufacturer, right? And so I think both of them should have some culpability, and they should be working together rather than fighting over who has to deal with it in some fashion to make, you know, es- especially the top 10 biggest, uh-... apps, for example, should all be working with all the device makers to make s- not just Apple, but Google and everything else. So, probably the device maker.
- SGScott Galloway
But there's, the, the whole privacy argument I find just so cynical and indefensible, because I have to give up my privacy every time I go on a, get on a plane. Not only that, they, they get to go through my liquids. (laughs) They get to, they know where I'm going. And by the way, if I, if I buy a one-way ticket, they've violated my privacy and they're more likely to do an additional security screening. They know my age, they know my status. They look, the guy at immigration looks through my passport and asks me when was I in Israel and what was I doing there. You Americans, part of a, part of a modern society is the following compact: you agree to have a certain amount of your privacy violated in exchange for utility. And what they're claiming is that the privacy violation of a 15-year-old, knowing their age and identity, think about how ridiculous that is. So instead, we're gonna enable this person to give their data and have their data molested by the CCP of who they are, their preferences, their sexual orientation, what they do, what their (laughs) key relationships are. I mean, the notion that these people give a flying fuck about their privacy is just so ri- it's, it's just not, it's laughable.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. I agree. I agree. I think they should, I think we should have a national bill like this and then we should know who's using our phones and, and it, on the road to younger people being restricted from using social media. And I'm sorry kids, that's what Scott and I think, 'cause we're old grandpas.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, but, but one of the most powerful forces in the universe is biology, specifically the cha- the ways we change, mature, evolve, grow, and die. And I don't think we spend enough time talking about what a powerful metric and indicator and arbiter of these rules age is. For example, if you are under the age of 16, you should not have a smartphone. If you are under the age of 21, you should not have alcohol. If you're under the age of 18, you should not be allowed to join the military. If you are over the age of 75, you shouldn't be allowed to run for fucking president. And instead, we've decided that we have this amazing indicator that is 95% of Americans over a certain age are incapable of doing a certain thing. 100% of people under the age of 16 do not make great decisions around drugs. So, it, why would we not leverage this amazing thing called biology as indicated by this other thing called age and time? It's, for, for all of time, it has been a consistent indicator of someone's cognitive ability decline, and yet we decided with technology and with presidential elections, we're just gonna ignore biology.
- KSKara Swisher
You have convinced me. Biology is undefeated.
- SGScott Galloway
(laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
I actually said that this weekend to someone. I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm quoting Scott Galloway. What is wrong with me?"
- SGScott Galloway
None of us is getting out of here alive, Kara.
- KSKara Swisher
We're with Texas. Oh God,
- 21:29 – 24:55
Taylor Swift Regains Ownership of Masters
- KSKara Swisher
we're with Texas, but we are. All right, also, this is something. I want... Listen, I'm gonna put a challenge to Scott Galloway here. I want you to have a serious take without a single Taylor joke. Taylor Swift has regained ownership of her master recordings after a years-long attempt. Uh, Swift's masters were previously owned by private equity firm Shamrock Capital, who purchased them from music manager Scooter Braun in 2020. The rights include Swift's first six albums, music videos, concert films, and more. She remade a lot of the songs that were on the masters Taylor's Version in order to go around them, and they've become very popular, actually. I, I... On most of the services, you get Swift's version of her masters, but she didn't own them. She reportedly paid around $360 million in the deal. I would like a serious take. What do you think about this, about her doing this?
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, I think it's capitalism. I think if she wants to own her own, her own catalog, that's her business. I don't think she has any... I mean, she's an adult. I, I think this is pretty simple. I don't think there's much more to this than it's a marketplace and she has the rights along with anybody else to buy them. I don't think she has any-
- KSKara Swisher
Why is it good to have them? This was what I was sort of interested in.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, she gets control... So for example-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
... we wanted, when we were doing-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
... the intro song, which we spent six months trying to figure out for Pivot, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
It was just too serious. It wasn't right. So we wanted a new one. And I wanted, uh, I thought, you know, we, we gotta pay the money and it'd be worth it. We should get Tracy Chapman's Revolution.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
We both love Tracy Chapman. We thought it was a great song.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
And somebody immediately said, "No, Tracy Chapman doesn't license her songs because she's worried, uh, she's worried that some car company's gonna license Fast Car."
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, toilet, yeah, toilet paper. Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
So this is what she gets. She doesn't have a toilet paper company or a suppository using Shake It Off.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
I mean, so she gets control.
- KSKara Swisher
Good, good idea.
- SGScott Galloway
Any- any- anybody, anybody who has... And this is really gonna go crazy in AI-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
... when all of a sudden, you know, when all of a sudden, uh, you know, Lincoln starts giving people advice because whoever owns his image and likeness licenses, licenses it to AI.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
Or if, if Warren Buffett doesn't make serious, doesn't, doesn't have serious IP protection that his heirs will agree to, his heirs in three generations, some kid who's got a cocaine habit and has-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
... squandered all of his inheritance says, "Well, I'm gonna start an investment app using Warren Buffett-"
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
"... his likeness and his image." So, the advantage to her is that she has other considerations than just purely monetizing every ounce and every dollar out of her songs.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a smart move to have, uh, own them. It's worth it to her. It's worth it. It's worth it to her.
- SGScott Galloway
She can control her legacy.
- 24:55 – 33:55
Elon Denies Drug Use
- KSKara Swisher
a new report on his ketamine use. Scott, we're back. Elon Musk says the New York Times was lying their ass off, I didn't know they had an ass, in a new report about his alleged drug use. He posted on X that he tried the prescription ketamine a few years ago, and while it helps for getting out of the, quote, "dark mental holes," he hasn't taken it since. Which is not true, 'cause he told Don Lemon he was taking it last year. Uh, the article claims Musk used ketamine often, and also took ecstasy and psychedelic mushrooms in the last year. The Times is standing by its reporting quite strongly, noting the story was based on interviews, private texts, documents, and photos. The drug use story dropped just as Elon had his big Oval Office farewell, which was weird, um, where he sported a black eye he says came from his five-year-old son. After the sendoff, uh, Trump insisted Elon's not really leaving, saying Musk will be back and forth since Doge is his baby. Um, talk a little bit first about the, the drug use, which I think everybody, i- i- it's so clear. There's not... What was interesting, the, the internet was populated with, uh, videos of him looking like he was on drugs. Like, there's not, you can't find a video where he's not doing this weird neck, eye thing that he does all the time. Um, talk a little bit about the drug use, and the, then go to the Oval Office press conference, and sort of any takeaways from the whole Doge saga. Uh, just so people are clear, Elon's right-hand man, Steve Dave- Davis also left Doge. Um, like Elon, he was a special government employee limited. A lot of people are leaving, all the people that came in and took over. His, Steve Davis's wife is leaving. Uh, they're sort of dropping off. We'll get to the NASA head in a second, but talk a little bit about the drugs and sort of the legacy of Doge.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, sure, but the, the key piece of data here is that Taylor Swift has 500 songs about dudes leaving her, and one, not one single song about giving a good blow job.
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs)
- SGScott Galloway
Just connect the dots, Kara. Connect the dot... (laughs) I've got a sickness, Kara, I couldn't help it.
- KSKara Swisher
I know, you have to, that is so...
- SGScott Galloway
I couldn't help it. I didn't hear anything you said-
- KSKara Swisher
That is such a bad joke, it's so old.
- SGScott Galloway
... I was thinking about my Taylor Swift joke.
- KSKara Swisher
I know, you were waiting. You couldn't hold it in.
- SGScott Galloway
I couldn't-
- KSKara Swisher
You can't hold it in.
- SGScott Galloway
I, I, I-
- KSKara Swisher
You can't.
- SGScott Galloway
... didn't hear anything you said.
- KSKara Swisher
All right.
- SGScott Galloway
Something about Elon Musk. (laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
You love talking about Elon Musk, you put up so many posts about diapers. Just so you know-
- SGScott Galloway
(laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
... excessive ketamine causes you to pee too much in your pants.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
So go ahead.
- SGScott Galloway
We got, we got the world's most powerful man-
- KSKara Swisher
You have used this joke 20 times Like you said, a lot of people can be functional and do it at the same time, but there are so many warning signs here. And, but one of the ones that troubled me, there was a line deep in the story where it's like, he was given... One of the things that he, they, the, the Trump people rail against is that people who are getting Medicaid, have drug testing or this and that. They have all these rules for people. He was warned in advance. That, to me, jumped out when the drug tests were coming. That was like, "Are you kidding me?" Like, he doesn't have to follow the same rules, and he gets warned. Who was warning him in advance? I was like, "This is a whole story by itself." Who was warning him in advance? It was the single line in the piece, and I was like, "Of course he was warned in advance," um, so that he could get clean or however he handles that. And that, to me, was disturbing. It just sort of was like w- watching in real time someone who is headed to a very bad place. I've always thought that, um, and it- it- and, and at the same time, hurting people as he hurdles through this very strange life of his, and without a caring. So give me your take on DOJ, because I think it was- m- it's been incredibly damaging. I don't think there's been good things about it at all. In fact, it's sullied the idea of government efficiency in many ways.
- SGScott Galloway
I think in some ways it's, it's essentially the, the government's come out with a much cleaner bill of health around this bullshit notion of waste, fraud and abuse. They just weren't able to find it as easily that, as they'd hoped. Some people, some people are reporting that it's actually the real loss is the effect of, or sorry, the effective savings are like seven to nine billion, which isn't even the amount of the subsidies. And where I would go is... (laughs) I mean, I always come to the, back to this statement. Look what money's done to us. If y- if, Kara, if you had a sibling, if you had a brother who was exceptionally talented, right? And say he was worth... He was just very good at business, and say he was worth 400 million, which means he's remarkably successful, but it was clear he was radically addicted to ketamine. At a parent teachers conference he was giving Nazi salutes, he was fathering multiple children with multiple women who were all suing him, or many of them were suing him for sole custody of that child because he hadn't seen that child. He had declared war on one of the children publicly, and he was clearly, like... And then he shows up with a black eye? I mean, wouldn't you get anyone who cares about this guy to g- to do an intervention? But here's the thing. But here's the thing. If you're worth 400 billion not 400 million, the world, the world admires you and thinks that you're... Think it's not drug abuse, it's you're provocative and you're authentic and you're different. I just come back to the same place, the idolatry of money, that we have decided that money somehow conflates with character and leadership. I- if he was worth $400 million, no one would put up with this shit. They'd be like, "Jesus Christ, this guy is, is an addict. We're not listening to this guy around..." We, they... An accounting firm, a mid-level accounting firm, wouldn't let him be a, a, a, a partner in their firm if they saw evidence of this.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, well, money takes care of a lot of things. What, what's interesting is influence over Trump may be fading. You know, Trump is sort of not a thrill to what people with
- 33:55 – 38:26
Trump Axes Elon Ally for NASA Admin
- KSKara Swisher
substance abuse problems. He was cruel to his own brother. Um, it may be fading more quickly than expected. The White House has withdrawn the nomination of Elon's billionaire pal, Jared Isaacman, to lead NASA just days before the expected Senate confirmation. Trump announced the decision Saturday night, citing a thorough review of prior associations, as if they didn't know he gave to Democrats apparently. Isaacson, uh, had donated to both Republicans and Democrats, which is totally normal to do. I, I'm... If you're a businessperson, that's what you do. But according to New York Times, Trump was aware that Isaacman had made those donations before nominating them. He's just using it. The pulling back is a setback for, uh, Mu- uh, for Musk because this is his pal. Having Isaacman, who's flown two private missions with SpaceX, at the helm of NASA would likely have been a major asset in securing contracts and missions. Um, i- i- talk m- is there... What did you think of this? This was really interesting. They're, and they're sort of purging the, all the, all the Musk people, it looks like, um, in terms of perks. I think if he hands... It may be a pressure to hand over that $100 million check he promised, maybe. I don't know. Maybe he's just flexing his muscles and... Um, but it, it seems like a direct hit at Elon to do this, right? As l- And that whole Oval Office thing, it's such a performative quality. The key was so... This is when I became actual felt sorry for Musk, is Trump handed him a shitty little key to the White House and I thought, "Oh my God, that is so awkward and embarrassing." Like, "Here. Thank you for your work. Here's a key to the, in a box. In a, in a, in a cheap box with a shitty key." That to me was like, "Ouch." But what do you think about the, the, the political power here?
- SGScott Galloway
Well, uh, Donald... Uh, the president has incredible political instincts. He sees things that other people don't see and goes places no one else would go and it ends up not only being less damaging than we thought but s- we hate to admit it, that even despite what the media's reaction to it, it appears to sometimes resonate with the larger population. And he's... Uh, I think he's decided that, uh, his, uh, the half-life of, of Musk's usefulness to him is over and he absolutely doesn't want to piss him off. He's got an incredibly powerful platform. He would still... You know, he does not want him spending a lot of money. I mean, the thing about Musk and drug addicts in general is they generally aren't that reliable or they're, or are consistent. And so he, h- I think, I think Trump is a bit afraid of Musk and goes, "This guy could turn on me." So I think he's trying to thread this needle by getting him out of the White House. Supposedly him and Bessem basically almost came to blows and it was creating real chaos in the West Wing, so he wants to get him out, move him aside and at the same time stay on good terms with him. It's like this is essentially what every manager's goal is. What Trump is trying to do is what every good manager's goal is and that is the following, and this is my approach to firing. And that is, you will constantly... Managers, whenever I ask about someone that we're worried about, people will constantly make excuses for them. "Oh, we're reassign... We're doing this, we're redefining the job role, or we..." And I'm like-And I know this is gonna sound terrible, I'm like, "Fire them." Um, i- I've found nine times out of ten when someone's not working, the people making excuses and recasting that the, it's the organization's fault, I'm like, "Okay, the organization's not changing." And the, the sooner we can move, the more generous we can be. I think you are rapacious and capitalist when it comes to these decisions, but then you're as generous as possible. You sit them down and you say, "Listen, it's not working here. We can go into why, but what we're gonna do is we're gonna let you stay as long as you need to so you don't lose your health insurance, so you don't have to worry about money in the short-term. We're gonna help you find another job." And I think that's the objective here. I think he is trying to-
- KSKara Swisher
Except why do Isaacman? Why do that the same weekend? It was really interesting. I mean, I guess the vote was coming up, but still.
- SGScott Galloway
I think something came out. Wasn't there something about his pa- they, I think they basically said-
- KSKara Swisher
Well, it's-
- SGScott Galloway
... "This is not the guy," or there- there's someone, who knows, there's probably another donor who's giving more money or something.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Who knows?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, but why do that? Why such a public, in the place that Elon loves? I mean, I just felt it was a weird...
- SGScott Galloway
You felt it was a shot across the bow. It was an affront to Musk.
- KSKara Swisher
I did. I was like, "Why bother?" Like, bec- because y- you could still control NASA contracts without, with him there, right, if they really didn't want Elon to get, uh, special favors. Um, but they'd have to watch it, I guess.
- SGScott Galloway
Uh-huh.
- KSKara Swisher
I don't know. It was interesting. Um, I think he'll probably be going away for a little while now, um, and maybe getting that much, the help he desperately needs, obviously. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Trump
- 38:26 – 43:48
Trump Doubles Steel and Aluminum Tariffs
- KSKara Swisher
goes back to the taco playbook with his latest tariffs. Scott, we're back. President Trump is doubling tariffs on steel and aluminum from 25% to 50%, a move he says will boost US manufacturing. The EU is already saying they're prepared to retaliate. Canada is not too happy either. The timing of this tariff announcement, uh, coincides with what Trump is calling a blockbuster agreement between US Steel and Japan's Nippon Steel. Details of the deal are somewhat murky, though Trump is claiming that US Steel will remain controlled by the US. Senator David McCormick also said the US government will get a golden share in this deal, giving the administration US, uh, board member approval along other key decisions. This has been rattling about for a while, I think it has almost nothing to do with this. And while Trump has been facing legal roadblocks in his tariffs, Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick explained on Fox over the weekend that tariffs are here to stay. They've been signaling that to all the reporters, just so you know.
- TGTariff/China policy expert (clip guest)
Tariffs are not going away. He has so many other authorities that even in the weird and unusual circumstance where this was taken away, we just bring on another or another or another. Congress has given this authority to the President, and he's gonna use it.
- KSKara Swisher
Um, so w- he's talking about the legal, uh, pushback on the legal stuff that he couldn't do some tariffs. There's certain ways he can get around it and this and that, but, um, he really is just doubling down on, um, these tariffs, and, uh, you know, it's fine for the US Steel thing, they get a golden share. Sure, why not? Um, talk a little bit about this, because, and then we'll talk a little bit about Chine- he's now again accusing Beijing of, of totally violating the trade agreement that, uh, paused retaliatory tariffs. So it looks like he's ginning things up and he's done with being Mister Nice Guy there. Um, uh, talk first about this, the steel, and then we'll get to China.
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, I think a lot of people have heard of sort of the taco trade-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
... but they don't really understand it. So it's-
- KSKara Swisher
Trump always chickens out for people that get that.
- SGScott Galloway
But what, what it actually means is the following, is that the stock market will move. So he announces tariffs on Apple products, and Apple goes down 3% to 5%. It takes a little bit of a hit. He, he announces huge, huge tariffs on China, 135%, and shipping companies that are dependent upon, uh, Chinese, um, exports into the Port of Long Beach, they lose 30% or 40% of their value overnight. EU tariffs, EU stock market announcement, EU stock market declines. The incredibly consistent massively profitable trade has been to assume that this is all bluster and these tariffs will not hold, and the companies that took an initial dive will recover, and it has been one of the most consistent profitable trades that Trump always chickens out, that his threats are bluster, and that he's bluffing, and the companies that take a short-term hit, you go long those companies and you make a shit ton of money. He has announced or reduced tariffs 50 times. And so far, as far as I can tell, we're gonna get a reduction in the price of Aston Martin engines from Britain. I mean, there's been absolutely almost no meaningful deals struck here. Now, my belief is it's the following. I used to think that he was an idiot econom- in terms of basic understanding of economics and was hoping through bluster and by saber-rattling to bring different economies to the table, thinking that that was gonna benefit Americans. I no longer believe that. I believe he is purposefully creating massive volatility such that him and his insiders can make billions of dollars in market manipulation and insider trading, and that in a year, the tariffs are gonna look remarkably similar to the way they did before the Trump administration. When Attorney General Bondi is trading and selling Trump Media shares the morning he announces these incredible tariffs taking the markets down, it means that all rules and fee- and fear around insider trade and criminality have gone away, and I think you are going, I think you are seeing that he has basically said, "All right," saying to his local cronies, his, his PE and hedge fund guys who tuck them in at night, "I'm thinking about massively increasing steel tariffs tomorrow," which by the way, took Cleveland-Cliffs, Nucor, Steel Dynamics, uh, up 27%, 11% and 5.9% because essentially local domestic steel manufacturers are gonna get to charge-... unearned prices because there's such massive tariffs on steel coming in. What does that mean? That means the prices of homes and cars are gonna go up. Now if you believe the taco trade, what you would do is you would now go short those companies, believing he's not gonna be able to implement those tariffs against steel manufacturers. So I'm now beginning to believe that given that the courts or the, uh, I forget what it's called, the IEEPA is basically saying, "This is not a wartime... You do not have license to impose these tariffs." (laughs) They can only be done in exceptional measures during times of terrorism or cyberattacks. I think George W. Bush invoked them during 9/11. They said this does not meet that test for what you are trying to do, basically like a, an exceptional wartime act. The trade would be to go the other way, but I'm now of the mind of these people are not dumb. Uh, what they're doing is creating massive volatility that them and their cronies and their loyalists are making tens of billions of dollars off. It's all market manipulation and insider trading.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. I think you're,
- 43:48 – 48:19
Trump Lashes Out at China
- KSKara Swisher
you've been talking about this for a couple weeks now. Um, one of the things that he's really focusing on, as I said, was China. He didn't, uh, give specifics about the problems with China, that they were violating these things. But US Trade Rep. Jamison Greer said China has been slow-rolling compliance, particularly on exports of rare earth materials, which we need desperately. China is hitting back, accusing the US of undermining the recent agreement with the so-called discriminatory measures like AI chip export controls, and also criticizing the plan to revoke student visas, which Trump has been doing, specifically targeting Chinese students in America, which there are many. Despite all the tough talk from both sides, Trump says he's sure he'll chat with, uh, Chinese President Xi to work things out. Uh, I mean, one of the things, i- is it even more taco behavior here? 'Cause this is the key relationship, presumably. But The Wall Street Journal also had a piece that was really interesting about all these attempts to hobble China, particularly when it comes to tech, aren't working and in a lot of ways are backfiring, with scarcity brings innovation, and many people feel, and that China's doing just fine, um, in the, in the, in, uh, the, these, these agreements. So what, i- is China different from your perspective, what he's doing here?
- SGScott Galloway
There's, there's the tariffs and then there's, and then there's the war on these elite institutions. And, uh, I think the tariffs... I mean, i- the tariffs will do structural damage and that is everyone's trying to reroute their supply chain around America. They're like, "We, we can't handle this toxic uncertainty." The, the fear on th- this nonsense with Harvard... By the way, both Xi Jinping and his rival, who disagreed on a lot, both had one thing in common. They sent their kids to Harvard. And what's just so insane and so cynical about this move is they're doing it under the banner of anti-Semitism, but the funding they're trying to cut is around medical research or scientific research of which we get huge dividends and which Harvard is outstanding at. Now having said that, I, I do believe personally, um, I'm, I'm, I'm apologizing. You asked about... I'm sorry, you asked about China. I think that he is looking for some sort of big, beautiful deal and that Xi is gonna call his bluff. I think they have totally overplayed their hand and i- i- the, the, the, the kid or the person torn between two lovers right now is Tim Cook, and that is Tim has nowhere to go. Tim, it would be easier, it was easier to get to splitting the atom during World War II than it would be for us to return all manufacturing of the iPhone (laughs) to the US right now. It's just an impossibility. And China is restricting the granting of visas to Chinese people in China who Apple is trying to transition to India such that they can assemble one screw and say, "Made in Ch- Made in India." It's all tariff gaming right now. People... I mean, i- it's just so, the... T- Tim Cook is literally caught between these two people. And quite frankly the more consistent player right now and the easier player to deal with is Xi. He doesn't know what Trump's gonna do. But if you look at what's happened to Apple stock, people sorta don't believe it's really gonna affect them. They sort of believe that that supply chain that has taken, that has absorbed 25 million people and $50 billion a year and five supercenters around China, that it's going to survive, that Trump will eventually back down.
- KSKara Swisher
Or go away. Or go away. That's, uh...
- SGScott Galloway
Or forget about it or move onto something else.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Yeah. Um, y- you know what's interesting is that Xi... We have to move on, but, um, I, I feel like China has got his number a lot more than anybody else in terms of manipulating him. I mean, obviously do... I think Putin does. He's, he's so easily manipulated 'cause he's so obvious, and the idea that he's playing 3D chess is just ridiculous. I think we're gonna, as you said, we're gonna end up in exactly the same place, and we are not gonna realize the threat that China does. Um, our best move is to get along with China, right? In terms of protecting ourselves as a country, um, and to figure out ways that we can protect ourselves from all kinds of things that they could do. But this way, th- they just... To me, they are in the pole position i- in t- wi- with him. And you're right. E- everyone's just waiting for him to stop talking and move on. Um, and his mouthpiece, Howard Lutnick, seems like an idiot. You know, no one believes them because they're so capricious. No one believes anything they say.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, but what you see is every time they make an, a new announcement about a tariff, there's, there's even less volatility.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. It's like, "Uh, what?" Yeah. Uh. "Huh?"
- SGScott Galloway
The market is absorbing these threats and saying, "They're not credible."
- KSKara Swisher
"What did he just say?" Yeah. He's making himself less credible. That's absolutely what's happening here. He's not a very good negotiator, as it turns out, um, which, which you would have known if you followed his business, uh, dealings over the many decades. All right, Scott, uh, one
- 48:19 – 57:50
Wins and Fails
- KSKara Swisher
more quick break. We'll be back for Wins and Fails. Okay, Scott. Let's hear some wins and fails. Why don't you go first?
- SGScott Galloway
Well, my fail, th- th- two images were summarized here. My fail was seeing kids, teenage boys, in zip ties, uh, uh, f- uh, detained by ICE. It's just like, do you realize how much damage that does to America? (laughs) Uh, uh, the cocktail, the peanut butter and chocolate that has created the strongest, the strongest nation in history, w- and most people don't know an Am- most people around the world don't know Americans, don't come to America, but they're willing to work with us. They're, they're, they think twice before they try to damage us or steal from us because they know...... our memory is long and our reach is far, and also that coupled with a general sense that at the end of the day, they're the good guys. And when an image is shot around the world of our own, our own security agencies putting children in zip ties, it just does so much damage to our reputation as the good guys. It, basically, we're no longer the good guys, and as evidenced by the scariest piece of data I've seen this year, other than 51% of men 18 to 24 have never asked a woman out in person, the second-scariest piece of data is that now globally, more people think China's a force of good in the world than the US. And that, that deep, that, that makes our deep pools of capital more shallow. People don't want to invest in us. People are less likely to inform when they think there's a terrorist cell trying to infiltrate our borders. It makes their, uh, their scientists less likely to come here. It makes them much less likely to want to buy our products over Chinese products. That is my fail, that image, and I won't go into the semantics of it. I don't know the specifics, but, uh, there's just some basics here, okay? A memo, memo to all ICE employees: never, ever have a minor in zip ties or in handcuffs, ever, ever. If, if they pose a risk to you, you have to incur that risk. If, you know, if they become violent, fine. But we never, we never put minors in zip ties or, or any, any other sort of, um, um, restraining, restraining device. Anyways, that's my loss, and I was equally excited by the image in the video of, uh, 40 strategic bombers, uh, at different Russian airfields being blown up. I mean, you cannot imagine. This is arguably the most precise, genius, and well-thought-out and bold military operation since the IDF's operation against Hezbollah in the Pedro operation. They managed (laughs) to smuggle in trucks to different areas er- a thousand miles inside Russian territory, figure out a way at the exact right moment with, with soft assets on the ground, i.e. Ukrainian spies on the ground, to geolocate these strategic bombers. And then these trucks, their roofss would collapse or, uh, retract and they would launch these drones, and these drones took out 40 long-term strategic bombers precisely that have been bombing Ukrainian cities. And by the time they knew what was going on, the soft, the, the agents and the, um, launch vehicles and the trucks had returned to safety or been abandoned. This was 18 months in the planning. It was incredibly strategic, brave. I mean, this, n- nothing creates momentum and respect like, like this type of bravery and this type of thoughtful, uh, action. I was just so, I was so excited to see this. I think it puts new wind in the sails and morale of not only people within Ukraine fighting this fight on behalf of all of us, but it also makes it more, we're more inclined in the West to support Ukraine because we see when we put our dollars and our support to work, these people are not fucking around. They are very good at what they do. And this will go down, this will go down in history as one of the great brave military operations, and you're gonna see in about 18 months two or three different dramas on (laughs) Netflix and on Hulu about this operation. Anyways, the Ukrainian special operation to take out, uh, 40 long-range strategic bo- bombers who were shelling and bombing, um, Ukrainian cities, that's my, that's my win.
- KSKara Swisher
I'm gonna say a remarkable country. As you know, the minute this is over, that is gonna be the most important technological country, I think. Uh, you know, we think, talk about certain countries like Israel and others, this, it already was, but going forward, once they get out of this mess, the rebuilding of Ukraine should be really interesting, especially for technology. I think it's gonna be one of those great countries and rebound. In 10 years, we'll be sort of like, "What?" Like, that kind of thing. I just feel like Ukraine is so impressive in terms of pushing, pushing people out of their country (laughs) , trying to as difficult as it is. Um, you're right. I was sort of gobsmacked that they were able to do that, uh, and relatively easily it looks like, which tells you everything you need to know about Putin's Russia. Um, that's a good one. Um, my fail, uh, continues to be, um, e- is this idea that, that, um, you know, the damage Elon Musk has caused through Doge and his, the damage of the coarsening is, really has to stop. I think it's really, the fact that everyone was sitting around acting like this guy was great at the Oval Office when he clearly is in distress, and I, listen, I have no sympathy for Elon Musk, but it's sad to look at. It's sad to watch someone of so much possibility become such a small-minded, angry, uh, victim. All the interviews were depressing. Every single interview was depressing. Um, y- you know, the people wrote a lot about, you know, money doesn't buy happiness, and that seems to be the case here. Um, but the fact that we excuse it and just don't call it out and say, "Listen..." And, and, and to be attacked, The New York Times, I thought did a great job in that story, uh, a- a- and, and has kept at it. That's a hard story to say yes to, I suspect, um, 'cause it, it over, it probab- he could easily, you know, sue them or whatever else with a lot of nonsense. But, i- it's a, i- i- it just makes you f- feel like, you feel like you know where this is all going, and it's, it's sad that nobody will intervene or can intervene really in that regard. Um, uh, for win, um, I, I, there's a new musical here in San Francisco, I'm hoping to see it this week, called Co-founders, uh, that's described as Hamilton meets Silicon Valley, and Reid Hoffman is the backer. And the show, I've been listening to the soundtrack, it's pretty good. Um, the show has a song that feels particularly appropriate. It's called Pivot, and it's not about us, Scott. Let's listen to a short bit of it.
- NANarrator
YouTube was a dating site with video. Twitter was a podcast called Odeo. Flicker was an early MMO. Never ending game way before the photo. The pivot ain't folklore. So when you think that you can't score. Just make your way to the dance floor. You'll get a second chance but you might have to dance for it. Yeah, you pivot. Turn your feet 90 degrees. Get down to get up so bend those knees.
- KSKara Swisher
All right. We've been pivoting for-
- SRScott Galloway (credits reader)
Wow.
- KSKara Swisher
Isn't that good? It's pretty good.
- SRScott Galloway (credits reader)
Yeah, it was good.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah. I think that should be our new theme song.
- SRScott Galloway (credits reader)
So that's what Reid's been up to? (laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
That's the reason he's, like, trying not to get, like, attacked by Trump and Musk and doing that.
- SRScott Galloway (credits reader)
Good for him.
- KSKara Swisher
I love that Reid Hoffman. He's always ... I was like ... I, I wrote him. I'm like, "What, what are you ... What?" It was like good for you. Good for you Reid Hoffman doing that. I kinda liked it. Um, it's here in San Francisco until July, so you should go see it. I'm excited to see it. I love the theater. It makes me happy whenever I go. Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show, or call 855-51-PIVOT. And elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe, this week with, uh, this week on On With Kara Swisher I talked to Editor in Chief of The Atlantic, Jeff Goldberg, Mr. Signal Gate.
- SRScott Galloway (credits reader)
Mm, good for you.
- KSKara Swisher
Let's listen to a clip.
- JGJeffrey Goldberg
Deeply corrupt governments and societies don't work very well.
- KSKara Swisher
They don't.
- JGJeffrey Goldberg
And sometimes they bring themselves to a crisis point, at which point the people say, "Enough," and something good happens out of that. So that ... I mean, I think that's ultimately where we're heading. Unless, unless the American people who are supplied with cheap calories, abundant video entertainment, and actual drugs just have given up on the idea of standing up for traditional American principles. I mean, we have to consider that. As long as you feed people enough food and give them enough diversion. I mean, it sounds very Roman 'cause it is.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Bread and circuses.
- JGJeffrey Goldberg
Yeah, bread and circuses. Um, maybe it won't.
- KSKara Swisher
He's really terrific. What a thoughtful person leading a very important publication right now. He's made it important through his leadership. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot, and make sure you like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott, read us out.
- SRScott Galloway (credits reader)
Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie ... engineering this episode. Thanks also to Drew Beros, Mia Cervero, Dan Chulan. This show ............................ Vox Media's Executive Producer of Podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, have a great rest of the week.
Episode duration: 57:50
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