EVERY SPOKEN WORD
80 min read · 16,218 words- 0:00 – 0:19
Intro
- SGScott Galloway
We've made a lot of predictions. We get some wrong. This was a fucking layup.
- KSKara Swisher
It was. [upbeat music] Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.
- SGScott Galloway
And I'm Scott Galloway.
- KSKara Swisher
Well, let's get straight to the breaking news of
- 0:19 – 10:51
Elon Loses OpenAI Case
- KSKara Swisher
the day. Elon Musk just lost his high-stakes lawsuit against Sam Altman and OpenAI, which alleged OpenAI had violated a promise to remain a nonprofit. After deliberating less than two hours, uh, which means they didn't get the free lunch, a federal, uh, jury ruled unanimously, nine to zero, that Altman and OpenAI did not betray their nonprofit founding missions. There was a statute of limitations technicality. But I think they're basically saying, "Elon, you giant adult toddler, too bad." Um, Scott, we've been saying this all along that this would happen. Check it out.
- SGScott Galloway
I think this jury can't possibly side with him. W- I mean, ultimately, I don't think they proved anything, and it's a sort of he said, he said kind of thing, and Elon's the most loathsome of the pair, right? By far, by a country mile. So I think Elon's made a spectacle of himself. If he wins, it would be something else. Like, I'll tell you that. Um, but I can't imagine the jury thinks this guy got the, got a short end of the stick or that he's stupid and didn't know what was happening to him.
- KSKara Swisher
The judge backed the verdict and dismissed all claims, including one against Microsoft. Both men are racing towards massive IPOs, with OpenAI valued at over s- $850 billion, and SpaceX expected to go public very soon after merging with Musk's xAI, which has been pretty much of a failure in the AI department, possibly one of the reasons for this lawsuit. Uh, thoughts?
- SGScott Galloway
Look, as predicted, I thought this was an easy one, and I, I thought this was a Messiah complex and seller's regret cosplaying a legal argument. The only thing that came out of this entire case was that Musk was fucking a board member and that she nor he disclosed it after he had left.
- KSKara Swisher
Well, if, if they did it that way. Let's be-- we don't know how that happened. [chuckles] There was some-
- SGScott Galloway
Okay
- KSKara Swisher
All right. [chuckles]
- SGScott Galloway
Okay.
- KSKara Swisher
Allegedly.
- SGScott Galloway
Y- you're saying she, she w-
- KSKara Swisher
I don't know
- SGScott Galloway
... it was immaculate, immaculate conception and just-
- KSKara Swisher
I-- no, 'cause there was-
- SGScott Galloway
... he said
- KSKara Swisher
... uh, let's not get into it. But they, [chuckles] they're re- romantically involved now. Okay, got it.
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, this was a, a law fair, um, and this was, a- again, I, I am turning so... I think we now need alternative minimum taxes of 60 or 70% on anything over a billion dollars for an individual because these individuals are under the impression that they are not subject to the standards of a Western society, decency, or any, or the law. The fact that they would even br- he would even bring this case-
- KSKara Swisher
Nonsense
- SGScott Galloway
... uh-
- KSKara Swisher
Waste of time
- SGScott Galloway
... is, okay, you don't have a legal argument, but I'm Elon Musk. And nonprofits are allowed to convert to for-profits. They do it all the time. He tried to convince them to become a for-profit that he would control, and when they said no, he left and started his own for-profit AI company, and then six years later decided to give up all ownership and governance of, that now that it was worth $850 billion, he wanted some of that or he wanted to at least slow it down for his failing-
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- SGScott Galloway
... uh, LLM. Th- this was, this was... We've made a lot of predictions. We get some wrong. This was r- this was a fucking layup.
- KSKara Swisher
It was. I have to say, one of the things that people... Look, look, first of all, it's a waste of our legal, our legal time. It's a waste of those nine jurors' time. It was ridiculous how ri- Let me tell you, all of them came off badly, right? Sam Altman doesn't look good. Siobhan Zillis, the alleged person, girlfriend thing. Um, no, she is his girlfriend, I guess. I don't know. I don't care. Um, but, and Greg Brockman. The only person who came off like an adult is Satya Nadella, who's the CEO of Microsoft, right? He looks like he did the right thing. He handled it well. All his texts are fine. The rest of them look like fucking babies and unhappy and just why are they in charge of our fate? Why are they s- why are they so unhappy and so rich? Um, all kinds of, like, weird dramas between them, personal dramas, and it's a waste of our legal system's time. It's just ridic- The judge seemed perplexed as to what it was doing there. Um, and again, it does come down to Elon Musk and sour grapes. He has the sourest grapes on the planet, even though he's about to become the richest person on the planet, right? In the history of the planet. The other thing is that both of them are sucking wind while Gemini and Anthropic are lapping them, right? So all this waste of time and energy over companies that are prob- have problematic, real problems, right? In their own, in their own thing, and it's just, the whole thing is just, I just... A- and I, I think the fault lies, of course, with Elon Musk, who just can't, like, lose. He's, he's a sore, he's a sore winner is what he is. I don't know what else. And he's a bad loser, essentially. And, you know, do you think it'll affect their IPOs or positions in the overall AI race? Because I don't see anyone coming off well except for, uh, Gemini and Anthropic in this deal, essentially.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, Gemini and Anthropic win by v- just vir-virtue of the fact that this is a big distraction for, uh, a non-competitor, xAI, and a real competitor, OpenAI. Uh, the only nuance I would add to your comments is, one, there's a small fraction of people, us included, very small, that we're tracking the nuance and the details of the case. Generally speaking, the majority of people will, will read this today, and, uh, it, it, it distills down to a very basic thing: Musk lost and Altman wonSo I actually think Altman comes out of this as a winner
- KSKara Swisher
Fair. That's fair
- SGScott Galloway
... because the majority of us didn't listen to the testimony and just how petty and childish and weird these people are. Uh, so it's like they'll, they'll remember one thing about this. Oh, Musk lost and Altman won.
- KSKara Swisher
You're correct.
- SGScott Galloway
And I don't, I don't-- I think the prediction markets, I, I don't know what they were s- at one point it had Musk at 50%, which was-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, I know
- SGScott Galloway
... a great bet. But the thing I looked at was the secondary market, and I didn't see shares in OpenAI decline in value. So I think this, I think this gives new, not new wind, but existing wind in the sails of the OpenAI I- uh, IPO. And also, I don't think it, uh, to be fair, I don't think it hurts Musk's IPO because I think people are so i- intoxicated for real, for many good reasons, by the IPO of SpaceX. This was... And w- the, the, the most interesting thing I saw in the CNN article that we just pulled up was the judge almost appears to be wallpapering over why they didn't dismiss it in the first place. Why did they even let this get to trial? Because the judge was saying that she, you know, "One of the reasons I was thinking of dismissing..." You're gonna have legal scholars look at this and go, "How the fuck did this ever go to trial?" [chuckles]
- 10:51 – 20:36
OpenAI vs. Apple
- KSKara Swisher
weighing possible legal action against Apple over how ChatGPT has been integrated into devices and apps. They were just waiting for this trial to end, and here we are. This deal could open, uh, that OpenAI thought would bring billions of dollars in subscriptions has not turned out that way. OpenAI believes Apple failed to give ChatGPT prominent placement in Siri and iOS, and didn't significantly promote the integration. Apple has its own concerns about OpenAI, as they should. Questions around privacy and the company's push into hardware and devices. They did hire Johnny Ive, who bought his company. Another sign of the fraying relationship, Apple is planning to let users choose between multiple AI models, the way they do with search, even though they favor Google, including Gemini from Google and Claude from Anthropic across its software later this year. Um, maybe they'll sell the pole position to one of them, but supposedly it was supposed to be OpenAI. What do you think about OpenAI taking on Apple?
- SGScott Galloway
I don't know what the contract is, but it kinda goes to the notion that even one of the most powerful companies in AI, it's all about placement and distribution.
- KSKara Swisher
Absolutely.
- SGScott Galloway
Even going as far back as when, um, I was running a strategy firm and we were working for Levi's, they initially decided they needed to go vertical because JCPenney's would put their own, um-Arizona brand at the front. I mean, distribution just has so much power, right? And even someone, even something as powerful as OpenAI, if you put them at, at the bottom, they're not gonna get as much. But I've, I've said for a long time, I thought Apple was gonna continue to be the arbiter and basically say, "Unless you pay us a lot of money, we're not putting you at the top," especially a company like OpenAI. But I don't know what the contract... I don't know if it's an actual, I don't know if it's an actual formal breach of contract.
- KSKara Swisher
Like the Disney Soros one that you had called out as possibly being a nothing burger.
- SGScott Galloway
I, I just, I wonder, do you really wanna piss off the premier means of distribution with the kind of access to cheap capital that OpenAI has? And Sam Altman's a smart man, regardless of what you think of him. I, I don't see... I would be trying to figure out a way to cut a deal similar to what Google did, where we're gonna pay a shit ton of money, and we're gonna be your default AI. So I don't, uh, going after them legally, I don't, uh, I don't-
- KSKara Swisher
Maybe Apple doesn't want them to be default AI. Maybe Apple does have-
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah
- KSKara Swisher
... concerns about privacy.
- SGScott Galloway
I don't know anything about... Do you know anything about the legal veracity of the case? I just don't know.
- KSKara Swisher
I don't know. I mean, they obviously, the deal doesn't... Like these, they, they struck all these very high-profile deals, whether it was Disney, which became a nothing burger. It was an experiment and didn't really go anywhere. They, you know, they did a lot of like da-da kind of things, and this was the biggest one of them. Um, and then they turned around and did the Jony Ive thing, right, which has, has gotta chap Tim Cook's ass, like, on some level, right? Even though he's gonna be stepping down, and at the same time, they would have questions about what they wanna do. Now, of course, Apple is a pay-to-play kind of company too, by giving Google... Uh, uh, probably, Google Maps are very good. Theirs were very good. There were other players. They didn't give search to... They gave search to Google 'cause they paid them. So they d- they are, they will take your money, and Google certainly has issues around all manner of issues, so they did, they sort of overlook those. Um, so I don't know. I just, I feel like they'll be... I, I think letting people choose between the multiple models is the best way to go. I don't love this place, pay-to-play kind of stuff 'cause it doesn't... It may give you a good version, but it doesn't give you necessarily the one you want. So it seems to me that people should be able to choose their AI model since Apple's not gonna be deploying that themselves. Um, you know, if you wanna use Claude, you should be able to use Claude, and whoever may the best man win kind of thing. But that's hard to do 'cause people don't really choose, do they? They just default use Google Maps or Google Search.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, you can make Bing your default if you want.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
I, I, I think they, I think they, I don't think they-
- KSKara Swisher
You can
- SGScott Galloway
... I think they-
- KSKara Swisher
It's deep
- SGScott Galloway
... they play, they play on the, the inertia of consumers, and that is-
- KSKara Swisher
Right. That's right
- SGScott Galloway
... w- they essentially, basically, my understanding is with Google Search being the default on iOS, they make it easier for you to use Google Search than use Bing.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, it comes with it. You have to go deep into the thing to change it, like to any of them. Just, it's like six... It's, like, a lot of steps.
- SGScott Galloway
I mean, th- this is the same across all of Big Tech. Amazon, if you wanna be in the golden buy box, uh, uh, or, you know, if you wanna be top of search results, you have to pay, and the way they extract payment is that you have to use Amazon Media Group, you have to use their fulfillment, and then the algorithm slowly but surely puts you towards the top or deprioritizes you, and it's like, it's like having a store on Mars just because you're on Amazon unless you figure out a way to do pay for play. I, I, I've said for a long time, I think eventually it'll move from s- these companies getting paid by Apple to Apple extracting a lot of payments from them.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Right.
- SGScott Galloway
What, uh, I, I think with OpenAI, though, they're now-
- KSKara Swisher
Well, Google pays Apple for those things, right? They do get paid-
- SGScott Galloway
I thought-
- KSKara Swisher
... for Maps
- SGScott Galloway
... Apple paid Google a billion dollars to-
- KSKara Swisher
N-
- SGScott Galloway
... be the engine behind Siri.
- 20:36 – 28:29
Data Center Opposition
- KSKara Swisher
we may not get there 'cause as these companies fight, Americans are pushing back on data centers powering all of it, uh, all, especially the AI. According to new Gallup polling, seven in 10 Americans oppose constructing data centers in their local area. That's, well, no, it's, no, T- Trump just had new polling. It's, he's down even further, but they don't like Trump. They don't like data centers. The opposition cuts across every major demographic and political group.
- SGScott Galloway
That's crazy.
- KSKara Swisher
Although Democrats are significantly more likely than Republicans to strongly oppose these data centers, but Republicans don't like them either. Like, let's be clear. It's pretty interesting that it's n- it's something that's quite bipartisan. Um, you know, a lot of people think this is gonna be the biggest... I do too, when you hear from people, especially as Elon, like, runs roughshod over the Tennessee town with his methane engines or whatever, um, with these colossus. It just creates this feeling of, of, I don't know what it is. It's like these rich fuckers are fucking with our environment now, right? And not to our benefit, essentially. But your thoughts on this.
- SGScott Galloway
I think it's the same reason that all these commencement speakers got booed, uh-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, yeah
- SGScott Galloway
... when they mentioned AI.
- KSKara Swisher
That was something.
- SGScott Galloway
I think A... I mean, first off, no one is using AI more than college students, and there's also some evidence that it's not the demand on the electricity or the environmental concerns that... I mean, some people will argue, quite frankly, that has been exaggerated. I would like to see the scientific evidence on that, but there's just no getting around it. What this represents is the following, whether you're booing Eric Schmidt or, or rallying against a, a data center, Am- Americans see their prices going up, and they're not participating in the wealth creation of AI, and it's just a proxy for income inequality that, okay, I hear about, you know, Anthropic is worth a trillion dollars. San Francisco real estate prices are booming. Jet sales are booming. There are 28-year-olds who are lucky enough to get a job in coding at OpenAI who are selling seven, 10, $15 million in stock, and I can't afford detergent. I, I can't, I'm worried about food costs. And so when I hear a data center's going up 40 miles from me in Utah, I show up to the protest. Whether or not I see direct evidence of it hurting me or not, this is a way of saying, AI has become indicative of income inequality. And, and so when anyone, anyone shows up at a commencement speech and starts lecturing them on AI, or they hear about a data center, I think this is essentially a vessel of people just, uh, filling it. A- and they're, I don't wanna, I don't wanna diminish their concerns. I think there are some real questions and, that need to be answered around these da- these data centers. But I feel mostly this is a vessel for people's rage around, "It seems like everyone is doing well except for me," and that America's giant bet on AI is paying off for a small group of people, and I'm not part of that group.
- KSKara Swisher
So why, why not the companies themselves, and why these... 'Cause I guess data centers are physical, right? They're here.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
They're there. They seem-
- SGScott Galloway
Gives you somewhere to go protest.
- KSKara Swisher
It's also dystopian, right? They feel dystopian. They feel like they're probably not gonna have a lot of people running them. It's not gonna provide the jobs. They're going around local governments to try to, like, pay off people to put them in, in the way others... There are worries about the energy costs that'll go up in these areas.
- SGScott Galloway
Yep.
- KSKara Swisher
There's, like, some real things, and then there's the pollution aspect, and I think Elon's, as usual, been the, like, the, the poster child for abuse of poor people, right?
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
These are usually in poor areas. Also, I think it's just be- even beyond the worries about things, it's more of a, a creeping worry aboutWhat tech is. The, again, the more villainous. They, they, we don't assume the best of these people ever, nor should we, that kind of thing.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, the one being planned in Utah that's sort of been the lightning rod or it kind of embo- embodies this one, they have the wrong sp- spokesperson. Kevin O'Leary is seen as someone who's not that empathetic.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. Oh, God.
- SGScott Galloway
An old white guy who just doesn't, he does not appeal to this cl- this cohort. It's gonna be two and a half times, the envisioned data center is gonna be two and a half times the size of Manhattan. Um, they have not figured out a way to communicate the economic benefits, and you're right, this notion that you could turn the lights off on these things during the day 'cause there's so few people working there. The bigger threat in my view, and of course we're not talking about this, but if you look at history, when we have spent more than 3% of GDP on any infrastructure build-out, whether it's the railroads, where I think we got up to 10%, we did two big build-outs, whether it's the electrification and the highways, remember the telco infrastructure build-out of the late '90s?
- KSKara Swisher
Sure.
- SGScott Galloway
Whenever we do that and go above 3%, in three years there's a crash. Because, and what might make this crash especially severe is that railroads need upgrading every 50 years, telco every 20 years. A data center's basically obsolete in four or five years.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
So I think there, I think obviously you need to look at the environmental concerns, you need to look at energy costs, but I would imagine there's so much money on the line here that these companies and these city councils would be able to come to some sort of accommodation around how do we ensure the local populace does not see its electricity costs just go through the roof. And there's some that-
- KSKara Swisher
One would imagine, and I know the Trump administration has been trying to. The, I think the hiring of Dina Powell was the reason for that, is she's very, as president of Meta, I think that's probably gonna be a lot of her jobs, these data centers worldwide, by the way. It's also in the Mid East. It's also, 'cause they wanna have big data centers there, and they have much more control over their populace. Um, but I do think it's sort of the last play of these governments not to put up with this. I, uh, you know, it's a really interesting dynamic of people who are sort of... Y- years ago, uh, one of the, Joe Kennedy Jr., I think I've said this, came, I ha- I went to his office, and he was talking about Amazon putting in a warehouse into his district. And he goes, "Well, what do you, this is probably good for people." I said, "Oh, no, it's, it's not good. It's not gonna be good for people." They're here to help themselves. I think people at their very core understand, as you were saying, that this is not for them. This is for others to, to benefit, and it's not to help them in any way. So why should we give up e- environmental stuff or e- more energy prices more than environmental. Anyway.
- SGScott Galloway
Again, I think, I think the, the, the curb or the retail story or the cover story is we're worried about environmental and, uh, demands on the grid. I think what's really going on here is this is just rage at income inequality-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah
- SGScott Galloway
... and big tech and the data center is the manifestation and-
- KSKara Swisher
Can see it
- SGScott Galloway
... that we can see it and protest against it.
- 28:29 – 37:06
Trump’s Investments
- KSKara Swisher
of this, which I think is getting people furious too, and I do think this is, the new financial disclosures show Trump or his investment advisors made more than 3,700 stock trades in the first quarter of 2026 involving hundreds of millions of dollars. The filings show major buys in companies like Nvidia, Boeing, Intel, Microsoft, and Oracle, many of which are directly affected by Trump administration, uh, policy decisions as the FCC chairperson, Anna Gomez, calls billionaire buddy deals. Um, in the case of Palantir, Trump made at least seven purchases of the stock totaling as much as $530,000 in March, then just happened to praise the company on Truth Social after shares suffered their worst week in a year the following month. I mean, uh, w- th- when, what does it actually take to have consequences here? And does it all end up with Trump, or does he permanently change what Americans will tolerate from presidents? 'Cause this is, like, there's a gr- I literally feel like he's gonna start taking milk money from kids, like, at some point, if you remember that, [chuckles] that expression. I just, it, this is like, is there anywhere he doesn't cheat and advantage himself in a way that's, like, really obvious grift? Like, obvious and really kind of upsetting grift.
- SGScott Galloway
I think you asked exactly the correct question, and that is what can be done about it? I- I'm just, I'm, I wanna move past the Democrats' indignation and constantly bitching about it, but no real ideas on how to stop it.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
And so l- let's set the table here to your point about a level of grift that is just absolutely unprecedented. He has, um, executed more than 3,700 trades in the first quarter-
- KSKara Swisher
Quarter
- SGScott Galloway
... of 2026.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
He's doing 40 trades a day. By the way, throughout his life, it's not like he's someone addicted to trading on Robinhood, and this is just him, you know, Trump being Trumpy. He usually didn't make this many trades in a year, and all of a sudden, he has access to influence around these companies, and he's decided to start trading stocks. Trump bought $500,000 to a million dollars in Nvidia stock one week before his commerce department approved Nvidia chip sales to China. He bought somewhere between one and five million the week before they announced a major deal with Meta. He'sHe, he, he bought Dell stock before he started carving up TikTok and giving it to, wait for it, Michael Dell. The same with Oracle. And we have unfortunately relied on a series of norms w- that has resulted in every president since LBJ using a blind trust. Obama did index funds and treasury bills. Everyone else has put their stuff into a blind trust. He claims his trust is blind-ish because his sons operate it, who are the same people roaming around extracting a pound of flesh.
- KSKara Swisher
And on the trips to China.
- SGScott Galloway
[laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
Just here to support Dad. Like, give me a fucking break. [laughs]
- SGScott Galloway
So insider trading, or the veil or the appearance of insider trading, has essentially defined Trump's second term. Just before Liberation Day, more than a dozen government officials made well-timed stock sales. What a-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- SGScott Galloway
... what a coincidence.
- KSKara Swisher
It's not just him.
- SGScott Galloway
So, uh, his, his meme coin hit a $27 billion market cap inauguration week, with 58 anonymous wallets making over a billion dollars dumping it, while 800,000 retail investors lost 2 billion combined. 15 minutes before Trump announced Iran peace talks, 500 million in oil [laughs] futures and 1.5 billion in S&P futures traded hands.
- KSKara Swisher
Kalshi trading. Who knows what's going on?
- SGScott Galloway
It's all-- Let's be clear. There appears to be an unprecedented pattern of information that seems to be only available from Trump, Trump or people surrounding him, engaging in what feels like either market manipulation or what could classically be defined as insider trading. And the damage there is it's not only a conflict of interest and skewing their decisions, it creates a lack of trust in the markets, where people think, "If I don't have insider information, I shouldn't buy stocks, 'cause the person buying or selling stock has more information than me." And you start to see Russia, which has, uh, a total stock market value of what our stock market trades about every seven seconds. And you lose access to cheap capital, and your whole economy starts to decline because companies can't, can't f- find, uh, pools of capital that are formed based on a certain rule of law and fair play. The question is, okay, great, now what do we do about it? And this is where I think the Democrats, again, have fallen short. And that is we're long on di- indignation, but we're short on ideas. And I believe that someone running for president should say, "One of my first acts is I'm gonna work with the following state's AGs. I think there's been insider trading. I think they'll have to disgorge at a minimum their profits, including Democrats, including Democrats who've engaged in insider trading. I think there has been wire fraud. I think there has been effectively what amounts to defense concerns or violations of the Emoluments Clause. I'm gonna go after cabinet members. I'm gonna go after their sons to the letter of the law. And the key here is I'm gonna do it with the following state AGs such that this legal action is not exempted or protected by a presidential pardon."
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
But somebody needs to lay this shit out.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Right.
- SGScott Galloway
We are co- I mean-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Well, Rahm Emanuel has. Rahm-- Others have. Some, several have, let me be clear.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, Rahm, Rahm is the only one-
- KSKara Swisher
He just laid it out in a piece
- SGScott Galloway
... R- Rahm is the only one who's actually moved to the ideas part of, uh... If i- I worry we are going to be in for a rude awakening if we think we're gonna win just based on indignance and hating Trump. It's gotta be, all right, what are you gonna do about it? And the way you get legitimacy here is one, by saying, "Any Democrat that's engaged in this bullshit, which they have, we're going after as well." And also, don't think a presidential pardon is gonna get you out of this, folks, 'cause this comes down to incentives, and until these beli- people believe they could be subject to something on January 21st of 2028, or excuse me, 2029, they're gonna continue to engage in it.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. 'Cause these are easi- You know, these cases are much easier to win, [laughs] by the way, in terms of-
- SGScott Galloway
There's digital proof everywhere.
- KSKara Swisher
That's right. I, I, I have told you this, but there is a group of pe- technologists who are saving crypto, uh, things for later. Like, so later when it happens, like when it, when you can do something like this, there'll be proof.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, they have prints on the trades.
- 37:06 – 45:50
SpaceX IPO Details
- KSKara Swisher
we're back with more news. SpaceX is expected to file for its IPO this week, which will be interesting. I'm excited for you to read it and tell me all about it.
- SGScott Galloway
Oh, yeah. I can't wait.
- KSKara Swisher
At a valuation of roughly $2 trillion, aiming to go public June 12th on Nasdaq. We're also learning about, more about the governance structure. No surprise, CEO Elon Musk would control a super majority of Class B stock with 10 times the voting power of ordinary shares. This is not uncommon. Google and other companies have this, um, um, uh, meta, things like, or a version of this. The prospectus says Elon can only be removed by Class B shareholders, and he will control the election and removal of directors as long as he holds his stake. Investors are warned this will limit or preclude your ability to influence corporate, uh, matters. It's already in place right now, by the way, but come on, of course, he's gonna do this. And there's another, yet another incentive for Elon. If SpaceX reaches a $7.5 trillion valuation, and it establishes a 1 million person colony on Mars, he could receive up to 200 million in shares. Let's talk about this board membership, uh, Scott, because you're, you've been an investor, you've been a board member. Elon defended on X, writing, "I need to make sure SpaceX stays focused on making life multi-planetarian, extending consciousness to the stars, not pandering to someone's bullshit quarterly earnings bonus." In other words, he doesn't wanna have a public company, but he wants the benefits of a public company. Um, uh, o-only thing I will say here, he truly does believe in this multi-planetary extending consciousness. It's not... This is not marketing on his behalf. He has a demented, loony idea that humanity will die, and he should be the god of Mars. So, and speaking of war, um, but your thoughts on this entire thing besides monarchy and godlike feelings that he has?
- SGScott Galloway
Well, just a brief history of dual class shareholder companies. They were originally invented by media companies who claimed they wanted to pursue journalism without the vagaries-
- KSKara Swisher
New York Times.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, yeah, a bunch of them actually.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Almost, a, a lot of them said, and there was some legitimacy there. These families said, "We don't want someone who hates us to show up and start dictating editorial control, so we wanna maintain control." Whether you believe that or not, fine. But then the first tech company to do that was, uh, the Google guys. They said, "We want two classes of shares." And what's interesting is in the late '90s, there was a rumor that Sequoia was trying to sell its shares in a private, uh, Google because the G- they, they clashed, they really clashed with Sergey and Larry, who demanded two classes shares, and that was so unusual, and Sequoia's thought was, "You're not gonna be able to get public. You're not a newspaper company. You're not a journalism company. You're a tech company." And basically, Google then, everybody else has followed in Google's footsteps. Now, to be fair to Musk, uh, you know, when I went on the board of The New York Times and was the largest shareholder, I, all I really was, was heckling from the cheap seats and effectively an advisory board. So while you get some sort of representation, you really don't have... At the end of the day, the family decides what they're gonna do over Thanksgiving dinner. The Ford family's the same way. They own very few shares, but they control the company, and tech has figured this out. So this is, this is noth- nothing new, and to be fair, most of the academic studies have shown that dual class shareholder companies have not vastly underperformed single share companies.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, I don't think that's the issue. It's they can't be fired.
- SGScott Galloway
But it... Oh, he's in charge, and not only that, but I mean, this is where the shit'll get crazy, and I can't wait to read the S1. You know, Adam Neumann wanted his kids to inherit the company. You know, and Musk is saying, so, but look, uh, y- The reality is shareholders have a choice around whether they wanna buy shares, and what you do with a dual class shareholder company is, one, a c- eventually you get a bad king, and two, you take out a premium of, of a possible takeover, and that is Warner Brothers Discovery. When AT&T spun Warner Brothers, they demanded a single class share stock such that the company could be put into play. And whenever a company is a single share, uh, class share company, it usually trades theoretically at a bit of a premium because someone could come in and buy it. So this is, this is just, you have to decide whether you believe in Musk, and to be, also just the market says not, people are not only willing to put up a dual class shareholder company, they're willing to buy at what are errant, abnormal, extraordinary valuations because of Musk's involvement. But this is, these super voting shares started with media companies or newspaper companies, then leaked into tech, and now e- almost everyone is doing it when they go public.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. I, I, that, that I don't fault him on. Like, of course, and he, by the way, he's been running Tesla like that anyway, without having this kind of thing, right? It doesn't matter. They, the, the board has, has, has sh- does whatever he wants. It's like, it's a completely bought and paid for board, essentially. And so he gets that shares, and he always threatens to leave, and he throws a fit, and it just didn't work at OpenAI. That's what happened there. They're like, "Yeah, we'll be fine without you," and they were, um, for a time. Uh, so I think he, this is not an unusual thing, and you do have to realize he's not gonna... He is a key man here. It's just that, like, one bad night in Austin and, you know, [chuckles] that's the problem with all this stuff, or he loses interest like he's done at Tesla. Now, the shares have stayed up because it's a meme stock, but the company's not headed in the right... He's just lost interest in it and is, you know, that's the problem you have here, is these single monarchies. Uh, same thing with, with, with Zuckerberg. He happens to be vibrant right now, but boy, has he made a series of idiotic move that would've gotten other people fired, and he won't be fired. And it, it is part of a mentality of, "I am the king. I am the god," uh, that, that you have got to buy into. But it has enormous risk, uh, because it's all based, predicated on one person. And sometimes that's good, butSometimes that's not so good. Like, I just feel like that you-
- SGScott Galloway
Well, uh-
- KSKara Swisher
... buyer beware, essentially. You could do well
- SGScott Galloway
... I think, I think that Musk, I, I think there's no way to build a company like SpaceX or Tesla without having a ton of good people around him.
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- SGScott Galloway
The reason why the Messiah complex comes into effect in that is no one is allowed to get near. I'm pretty sure the fastest way to get fired at Tesla or SpaceX is to ever say anything at a mic. Only Elon is allowed to talk.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. That is true.
- SGScott Galloway
This is all about Elon. He's the genius. We don't... There is no Ruth Porat. You know, there is no Tim Armstrong. There is no-
- KSKara Swisher
That's correct
- SGScott Galloway
... there's no one else anyone's allowed. You're locked in the basement.
- KSKara Swisher
Can I tell you something? Can I just interject? When I wanted to interview Gwynne Shotwell years and years ago at one of my code conferences, they said, "Only Elon will speak to you." Like, I was like, "What are you talking about? She's obviously doing an amazing job." Like, I really wanted to focus.
- SGScott Galloway
No, no.
- KSKara Swisher
No, no.
- SGScott Galloway
It's all about Elon. [laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
Only Elon, and I was like... I remember at the time being like, "Well, that's fucked up," uh, because she deserves, like, I wanna hear from her. Anyway.
- SGScott Galloway
But, but what I would suggest investors do when the S1 comes out, and I'm gonna spend some time on this, is not focus on the dual class shareholder structure, but simple, uh, basic boring stuff, uh, or the boring knitting evaluation, and that is the following. At some point, an amazing company is a shitty investment if it gets too expensive, and at some point, a shitty company is an amazing investment if it gets cheap enough, and let's just talk about valuation here. Google IPO'd trading at about 10 times trailing revenue, and it was growing revenues 240% before the IPO, so 10 times revenue, growing 240% a year. Meta IPO'd at 28 times trailing revenue, growing revenues at 88% a year before the IPO. Saudi Aramco, five times trailing revenue, growing revenues 41% a year. SpaceX will IPO at 109 times trailing revenue, growing revenues at 20% a year.
- KSKara Swisher
Ooh. Ouch.
- SGScott Galloway
So, and to be clear, space is the ultimate addressable market. They have moats the size of the Amazon, but it's going out at 10 times the valuation on a multiple basis as Google did with a tenth of the growth. And then if you just wanna look at valuations, Amazon went public at $900 million, Microsoft at $2.3 billion, Apple at $7 billion, and Google at $40 billion, and what? SpaceX is targeting $2 trillion? So all I have to say is, is, is SpaceX an amazing company, or is it massively overvalued? The answer is yes.
- KSKara Swisher
Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, we'll
- 45:50 – 53:50
Sen. Bill Cassidy Loses
- KSKara Swisher
see, and you could still do well. Okay, moving on very quickly, Louisiana Senator Bill Cassidy lost his Republican primary after President Trump targeted him in retaliation for voting to convict him in his impeachment trial five years ago. Trump backed Representative Julia Letlow, uh, who finished ahead with about 45% of the vote. On Truth Social, Trump celebrated the loss, saying that Cassidy's disloyalty to the man who got him elected is now part of legend, and it's nice to see that his political career is over. Cassidy took a swipe at Trump during his concession speech. Let's listen to a clip.
- SPSpeaker
When you participate in democracy, sometimes it doesn't turn out the way you want it to. But you don't pout, you don't whine, you don't claim the election was stolen. You don't find a reason why-
- SPSpeaker
[cheering] [applauding]
- SPSpeaker
You don't manufacture some excuse. You thank the voters for the privilege of representing the state or the country for as long as you've had that privilege.
- KSKara Swisher
So interestingly, also, just for, in a related story, the Supreme Court blocked an effort to revive Democratic-backed Virginia congressional map that could have flipped several GOP House seats. The map, uh, had been approved by voters, but struck down by Virginia Supreme Court, and Supreme Court did not give a reason for denying the emergency appeal and the order. They usually don't meddle with supreme courts, really, is what I'm told. Um, so w- there is some worry that Democrats should worry about the political environment. Others feel, no, that it's not the case, that it was, it was a good thing to have, but not a must-have. I mean, this Cassidy thing is interesting 'cause suddenly, again, like Tom Tillis, he's found his balls, and he does have until January to do something about it. He's the one that backed RFK, and even though he knew better, he did a lot. He voted yes for Pete Hegseth. Shouldn't have done it, now can be regretful of it. I know Tillis took a really big slap at Hegseth this week. These two could make trouble for Trump until January, quite a bit of trouble. Um, but you know, as Tillis did with the, uh, with, um, around the, uh, Fed chairman, uh, vote. Uh, so what do you think about this? I mean, democracy is democracy, and Trump has power in these states, so thoughts about both things?
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, I'm torn because I understand, I'm sympathetic to the notion that you can't do good if you don't get elected, and this is no longer the Republican Party, it's MAGA. It puts these people in a very difficult position. I also think there's some legitimacy to the argument that Bill Cassidy should lose his medical license-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm.
- SGScott Galloway
Because to-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh.
- SGScott Galloway
To be... Well, he was the swing vote that-
- KSKara Swisher
I know that. I-
- SGScott Galloway
That got-
- KSKara Swisher
Couldn't believe it
- SGScott Galloway
... that got RFK. I mean, I've said this before. No one is doing more damage abroad than Secretary Hegseth. No one is doing more damage to children domestically than RFK Jr. Uh, measles is on the rise.
- KSKara Swisher
Me- I know. You tweeted.
- SGScott Galloway
I mean-
- KSKara Swisher
It's, it's repulsive.
- SGScott Galloway
I-
- KSKara Swisher
He's a murderer. He's a murderer.
- SGScott Galloway
So, and this is the doctor. He took a Hippocratic oath, and he confirmed a guy he knew was, was creating fear and insecurity around our medical, our great medical institutions and around, and, and, and demonizing vaccines, and he's a fucking doctor. I mean, uh, so I, I, I wanna feel some glee here, but here's the problem. It was good to have a doctor on many of these panels. He was about as reasonable as they cameThe person that's probably gonna replace him is gonna be worse. So this is just one of those things. It's like shavings of shit on a shit salad, and it's fun to be gleeful about it and say, "Senator Cassidy, you're..." You know, uh, the only thing I know that's gonna come of this is, oh my God, wait and see the testicles that this senator's suddenly about to find he has.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, he just did.
- SGScott Galloway
Just watch him on Bill Maher.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
All of a sudden, he's gonna turn into a truth teller.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
I can't wait to see what he says about RFK now.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
And the problem is, folks-
- KSKara Swisher
It doesn't matter
- SGScott Galloway
... that's not when we need your testicles.
- 53:50 – 1:07:35
Spencer Pratt’s Campaign
- KSKara Swisher
Scott, we're back with more news. This one, oh my God. You could have run for mayor of Los Angeles at this point. Spencer Pratt, formerly of reality show "The Hills" and a generally awful person, is unexpectedly emerging as a contender in the Los Angeles mayor's race. I'm not so clear he's gonna win, but he's got the MO. Despite his lack of p- uh, political experience, Pratt has gained traction through viral social media campaigning and support from figures like Joe Rogan and Elon Musk. Of course, Elon Musk. Pratt has built his campaign around frustration with the cost of living and the city's response to wildfires which destroyed his own home. Um, a lot of reporting by Harvey Levin has shown most of the stuff he's saying to be nonsense. Um, thank God for TMZ at this point. Um, he's signed up, uh, of course, an unscripted series following his bid to be mayor and going into mayor, of course, 'cause this is all a scam with Spencer Pratt. And elsewhere in California politics, which seems insane this, at this particular juncture, California gubernatorial candidate Tom Steyer is under investigation after his campaign paid influencers to post favorable content without clearly disclosing it was sponsored. California law requires paid political content include disclaimers, as it should, and state regulators are now looking into whether those rules were violated. Both Democratic and Republican groups report he spent millions on this type of endorsement over the past few campaign cycles. It's very-- It's propaganda. Um, so reality stars, influencersOf course it's California. Spencer fucking Pratt. Like, what in the fuckity fuck? And a lot of people donate to him, by the way, don't live in Los Angeles, but that's neither here nor there. Thoughts?
- SGScott Galloway
I had a friend call me and ask me to have him on the Raging Moderates pod, and like a reality TV star, he lost his house in the Palisades. He's very good on camera. He understands social media. Uh, he's got a lot of momentum. He's running against what I think is a weak candidate and a frustrated populace. L.A. has become a little bit like, I would describe it as Cape Town. There are some areas of Cape Town, I think this is the nicest place in the world, and then if you venture a few minutes outside of them, it gets really ugly really fast. And the homeless problem, you know, I think it's fair for people to say, "I'm paying some of the highest taxes in the nation-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. I want it to be better
- SGScott Galloway
... and I have to walk this way to my kids to school so they don't see a homeless man masturbating or shitting in the streets." That, [laughs] you know, you, you can understand the, the, the amount of bureaucracy trying to deal with the fires. A lot of people don't like the way the fires done. This is ripe for somebody to challenge Karen, uh, Mayor Bass. Uh, where I land on the following, is the following: Spencer Pratt embraced Alex Jones, is, uh, said 9/11 was an inside job and brought up doubt about Sandy Hook. Go fuck yourself. I, I would vote for anyone over someone who has embrace... Embracing Alex Jones disqualifies you to run the, one of, one of the great cities in the world. So this guy is evidence again of revolution and people so angry and so upset. I hope... A- and it's also evidence of just how hard it is to find reasonably competent people to run for office, 'cause they know-
- KSKara Swisher
Like Rick Caruso was supposed to challenge her, who went against-
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, Rick, Rick would've been great. I'm trying to get my friend Jamie Patrickoff to run. He's nice. He loves L.A. He has the money, which is important. He's pragmatic. He's a business person. None of these people wanna put their family or themselves through this bullshit. Also, somebody has to come in and take on many of the special interest groups, including unions, including entrenched Democrats. A- and it is a, a lot of people will say, people really thoughtful go, L.A., like California, has become nearly ungovernable. And that is the special interest groups are so entrenched and so hard to overcome, there's so much bureaucracy, it is so hard to find talented people to try and do this. Everybody wants theirs, and that it's become a very difficult... But Spencer Pratt?
- KSKara Swisher
I know. It's just amazing that somebo- that people are backing this guy, this guy. And by the w- I, I'm not kidding about Harvey Levin. He actually showed how much he was living at the Bel Air Hotel and was pretending to... Anyway, look, there's frustration over everything. Ev- a lot of the stuff that he's talking about is not the responsibility of Bass, but there's anger at Bass about how she handled that, no question. There's anger and frustration about homelessness. There's anger and frustration. But your, your, your choice is not to go with Spencer fucking Pratt, by the way, who's just one con after another. He really is. He really is. And lie and con after another. There's another council member who's also showing some, some, a little bit, not momentum, but ch- some numbers, who had backed Bass and now is running against Bass. Probably should, I hate to say this, but probably strike some sort of deal with Bass, step down and let-
- SGScott Galloway
And get out. Yeah
- KSKara Swisher
... she will probably win. Bass will, because she's, there's no pe- no Latinos or Black people are voting for Spencer Pratt. And it's all outside money. It's all people who have, like, very little interest in it. But he is articulating an anger, even if he's the worst vessel possi- I mean, the worst-
- SGScott Galloway
That's how we got Trump
- KSKara Swisher
... That's exactly right.
- SGScott Galloway
[laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
And but this guy makes Trump look like a genius. Like, let me just say, this is not even close. It's, it would be such an embarrassment for this to happen. In San Francisco, you get Daniel Lurie, someone who's a really, who's doing a good job. And by the way, I, I still don't think London Breed did the worst job of all. It just was, she had a lot of stuff that got piled up on top of her, um, and, and, and, and didn't have the tools because of different legal things that's got passed later, that she couldn't deal with the homeless issue there. But now Lurie can. Um, you, you need someone like Lurie. Like, find someone like that, like, who is gonna be, like, m- little maybe a little more centrist than the left wants, maybe a little, uh, not as, not as conservative as others want, right? Someone who's gonna try to solve problems and at least make an attempt to do so. And instead, this laughable, like, con man is the person you're picking and, and full of constant lies. It will be a disaster for Los Angeles. This is one of the most beautiful places on Earth. And if they could be... Now, Los Angeles compared to San Francisco is a quantum level of difficulty of running. It just is. Like, let's be clear. Um, and, uh, but this is not what you want. I think Bass has started to acknowledge the problems, is saying all the right things. It's likely she'll win, but the momentum for this fucking clown especially, let me tell you, anyone who calls me from Los Angeles, and several have, that say they're looking at them, we are no longer friends. Like, sorry. Just sorry. Like, are you-
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, but there is no looking at him, quite frankly. You're being very generous to Mayor Bass.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. I am, I am.
- SGScott Galloway
[laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
I, I agree. I think she's, uh, she has, has not been great, but this is the choice you have, right? This is the-
- SGScott Galloway
Fa- fair enough, but there's a couple takeaways here. Mayor Lurie and Democrats, especially Democrats in executive roles, not legislative roles. There's a difference.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
Governor and mayor, it's an executive role.
- KSKara Swisher
Agree.
- SGScott Galloway
And what Mayor Lurie is doing, and every Democratic, um, mayor needs to take a lesson, a note out of this playbook and governor, because if, if Democratic governors and mayors can't figure out a way to not make their cities come across as shitholes, it is gonna be very hard for them to run. They've gotta show they have the ability to say no to special interest groups-
- KSKara Swisher
Yes
- SGScott Galloway
... and be about blocking and tackling-
- KSKara Swisher
Agree
- SGScott Galloway
... such that they focus on quality of life issues. And what Mayor Lurie has done that is so impressive is if you ask him about Israel, if you ask him about Ukraine, if you ask him even about a national issue, bodily autonomy, that doesn't directly affect right now San Franciscans who have access to family planning, he says, "I'm not gonna talk about it. That's not why I'm here." Every mayor and governor in the United States thinks that their mayoral or their governor- governorship is a kickoff campaign for them to run for presidentNo. Get the subways to run on fucking time. Figure out the way the trash gets picked up. Figure out a way to strike a deal with the unions if you're dealing with that such that they make good livings, but it's not, they're not making $180,000 a year for their 40 years-
- KSKara Swisher
I 100% agree with you, Scott
- SGScott Galloway
... in retirement.
- KSKara Swisher
I agree.
- SGScott Galloway
Stop talking about national-
- 1:07:35 – 1:23:16
Wins and Fails
- KSKara Swisher
let's do some wins and fails. Should I go first?
- SGScott Galloway
You go first.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay. I, I'm gonna put it as a win and a fail on both. Now, I love Stephen Colbert, right? I love him. I think he's really funny. I think he's gonna have an enormous career after he leaves. Uh, I think they're overdoing it on the goodbye tour, I have to say. It plays-- I hate to agree with people, but it's, it's-
- SGScott Galloway
It's like, it's like a woman's birthday party that turns into a jubilee coronation for two fucking years.
- KSKara Swisher
I just feel like, come on. It's, you know-
- SGScott Galloway
Leave already
- KSKara Swisher
... like, it's, it's like-
- SGScott Galloway
We get it. Leave
- KSKara Swisher
... and it's also like, it's the five white guys. I was like, this, you're not making yourself feel like-
- SGScott Galloway
No, you're, you're not-
- KSKara Swisher
I get it. I'm pissed-
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah
- KSKara Swisher
... I'm pissed myself about-
- SGScott Galloway
I, I 100% agree
- KSKara Swisher
... the parent takeover. I, I am too. Uh, but I'm not gonna, like, go on about it. That said, when they-- What I did love is when they bring Letterman back, who I love when he's mad. Like, I love a Letterman anger, and I think it's really funny, and that was sort of his brand, his sort of dyspeptic anger. And they threw the furniture, and then they threw the melons, and they threw the, um, the birthday cake off the roof. I thought that was so funny and just exactly all I needed. So there, that was my win and fail at the same time. And when he says, "Good night and good luck, motherfuckers," that made me laugh hysterically. Like, uh, do it in humor, but it's getting, like, it's getting a little much. I, I... God, I can't believe my... Meg, Megyn Kelly said a version of this, and I hate to agree with her, but... And I love Stephen Colbert, and I think he's got-- I think they're not telling the truth about what happened here. I do know that these shows are declining, and this is the way it goes. They could've done a lot of other things. But, uh, just stick with the funny. And we all know you got fucked. Like, I get it. Uh, but just go on and do great things. That's what I would say. I just am feeling a little bit like, okay, boys, you know, there are lots of people that get fucked, so let's, let's, let's do something about it, as you say. All right, you're win and fail. People are gonna be mad at me, but I love Stephen Colbert anyway.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, I have a fail and a prediction. And [sighs] okay, so, um, my fail is Nicholas Kristof and what I believe is a breakdown in standards at The New York Times. And his piece on Palestinian prisoners I think is my fail. And not because the subject isn't serious, and not because... I-it's not, it's an important issue. I believe that our military operations in Western societies and democracies need to be held to a higher standard. And whether it's a second strike on a, on a, on a boat, not a Navy vessel with survivors and not giving them quarter, or the abuse of Palestinian prisoners, I think that the IDF should be held to a higher standard than any military in the Middle East. So it's not that it's, it's not that it's n-not an important issue, but there's a line in the piece suggesting that dogs were trained to rape prisoners. That's an extraordinary claim, and extraordinary claims require a level of evidence that was not met here. Not vibes, not hearsay, not someone said. If you're going to publish something that incendiary, you need airtight sourcing, multiple corroborated on the record confirmations or clear documentation. And as someone who has a background or experience with Belgian Malinois and, uh, has come very close to adopting a canine dog, the notion that a dog can be trained to physically rape somebody, it, it, it's just fucking ridiculous. And I feel that they're not informing the public. They're injecting a narrative accelerant into one of the most volatile conflicts on the planet. And here's the bigger problem. When legacy media outlets, especially one that has the prestige, the reputation, the talent of The New York Time, runs with claims like that that aren't bulletproofed, they're not risking being wrong. They're, they're risking a further erosion in trust in everything else that's true. And they hand ammunition to people who wanna dismiss all reporting as biased or fabricated. And this isn't-- I'm trying not to take sides here. I think this is about standards. War is where truth goes to die on both sides, which means journalism needs to be really disciplined. And if you lower the bar because the story aligns with your priors, you're no longer doing journalism, you're doing advocacy with a byline. And I think that these abuses, the ones that can be proven, get discounted because the media couldn't resist the most shocking version of the story. This reminds me of all those w- stories about child soldiers that really upset people for the right reason. You take something innocent and talk about killing. Taking dogs and combining it with rape, uh, it just-- I read it and I thought, "This is just over the fucking top for The New York Times."
- KSKara Swisher
Well, l-l-- Can I just... Uh, I'm not gonna push back because I think there's a lot of controversy around this story, that it was in-
- SGScott Galloway
Mm-hmm
- KSKara Swisher
... the opinion section. That i-in this case, it probably, The New York Times reporters on the scene should have written a, a follow-up story or something to talk about this. Now, Kristof is known as an excellent journalist, has done amazing work.
- SGScott Galloway
Pulitzer Prize. Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
He-- It's not just that. Not just 'cause he won the Pulitzer Prize, but, like, amazing work on all sorts-
- SGScott Galloway
Agreed
- KSKara Swisher
... of abuses across the world, and he's been accurate as a r- he's a very good reporter too. Um, but this was an opinion section piece, as you know. Um, and The New York Times has been very supportive of him, but I think in this case, this should have been also reported because of the nature of it. You've got to have, like, ex-extensive reporting on this even if it, it-- because it's so incendiary. And I, I think probably... I don't know what happened, and they need to talk about it, but The New York Times is backing his reporting. The question is, should they do more reporting, right? On... A-and if this was the same allegations on the Israeli side as been, as been, uh, I mean, on the Hamas side, um-
- SGScott Galloway
Mm-hmm
- KSKara Swisher
... of the same sexual abuses, same thing, right? Like-
- SGScott Galloway
Mm-hmm
- KSKara Swisher
... allegations, same thing. And so that's what's important here, is to do as... I think you double report stuff like this, triple report and quadruple report. It'll be interesting to see how it-How it pans out because the Times has been backing him on this stuff. Um, and, and he, he is citing a lot of UN stuff. He's citing a lot of reports on the scene. He's citing a lot of stuff. But it requires extra, extra reporting. As much as, you know, that may be seem offensive to some, I, I think I do agree with you here. They've gotta really button it up in a way that c- because of the incendiary nature and where it is at the same time, even if y- y- you have a side and you feel like, you know, that war does result in terrible abuses of the citizenry.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, I'm gonna defer to you on journalistic standards. I just read it and thought I, I have trouble. This seemed so unbelievable that it required more than, uh, more evidence and better reporting than I, I felt was evident in the article. And then on something that is so important in terms of how we in the West, and I do consider Israel-- Israel is an ally and part of the West, the standards they should be held to are really important and deserve, they deserve scrutiny. I mean, I, uh, I get it. People who... When people claim, "I'm not anti-Semitic, I'm anti-Israel," I say to them, "You know, I can relate to that 'cause I don't like Netanyahu, but I care so much about Israel that I would like to see Netanyahu voted out of office 'cause I don't think they have acquitted themselves well in terms of many of the ways they have approached this conflict." I get it. But when you, when you reduce the veracity of your reporting on this key issue and other ones by s- uh, as someone... I don't feel like I have domain expertise around how prisoners are treated. I have some domain expertise [chuckles] around dogs, quite frankly. And I just thought, okay, I have-- I can't even-- This is unimaginable for me, for someone who has spent a lot of time around Belgian Malinois, for them to say that, and then I'm like, "Where's the evidence? Where the proo- where's the proof? Where's the double, the corroboration, the further investigation?" And it wasn't there. And I thought, it reminded me of when you see those in- just unthinkable pictures. At the end of the war, Americans were really horrified by what they saw in concentration camps. They were almost as horrified by the Germans enlisting 14-year-olds and sending them to the front lines. 'Cause you took children, something innocent, and you collided it with something heinous, killing other people. And I th-- this, this reeked of that to me. Let's find the most innocent creatures in the world, dogs, and let's combine it with rape.
- KSKara Swisher
Well, let, let me just read the, for, just for this, for people to know. It'll, we'll see where it zeroes out, but I'm assuming there's gon- they're gonna do further reporting, would be my guess internally. Um, and there's a lot of people saying they're gonna, they're gonna retract it. I-- This is, Christof has said this is not true. Um, this is the, this was the quote that The New York Times gave, just so we have it. "There is no truth, uh, to this at all. Nicholas Kristof is a two-time Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist who has reported on sexual violence for decades and is widely regarded as one of the best, the world's best on-ground reporters documenting and bearing witness to sexual abuse experienced by women and men in war and conflict zones. He traveled to the region to report firsthand on the stories of Palestinians who suffered abuse, and this article collects accounts of the victim's own words backed by independent studies." So we'll see. This has another chapter happening 'cause they're getting such pushback, and including from Netanyahu. So I, I, I, uh, I do hate to say, like, you have to do extra reporting on certain topics, but I think there's-- you have to anticipate, even if, um, it's Netanyahu or whoever it happens to be, and have everything locked up tight. I would agree with you on that. Anyway, we'll see where it goes. Uh, but-
- SGScott Galloway
I thought that was a productive conversation. I appreciate it. Um-
Episode duration: 1:23:16
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