EVERY SPOKEN WORD
120 min read · 24,422 words- 0:00 – 6:33
Intro
- SGScott Galloway
I mean, the gangster move here would be for him to come back doing a vicious dialogue and say, "And by the way, I came back on, I stood up for my principles. I don't want to work for this company anymore. This is my last show."
- KSKara Swisher
Oh. (instrumental music) Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.
- SGScott Galloway
And I'm Scott Galloway.
- KSKara Swisher
How are you doing, Scott?
- SGScott Galloway
I'm feeling okay. I slept a lot yesterday. I had a nice weekend. I get a little bit lonely when I'm traveling for a while, so I'm a little bit lonely. Um...
- KSKara Swisher
Oh.
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, but yeah, I'm fine. Without the dogs, without the kids-
- KSKara Swisher
Good.
- SGScott Galloway
... you know, but everything's fine.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. When do you go back? When do you get back?
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, I go... Well, I'm in New York now. I go to Aspen for this, uh, an event. I'm not even sure you're supposed to talk about it. It's one of these events where we redraw the maps of the world in rooms and-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, right, one of those secret ones?
- SGScott Galloway
... talk about climate change.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
And, you know, people pretend to care about the world as they wash out founders of AI to get their seven, seventh billion.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
Um, but I'm very excited. (laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
Are you getting invited to those things? I never get in those rooms. I never get invited.
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, yeah, I am... Uh, I, I am all of a sudden. I, I was never invited-
- KSKara Swisher
There's a Bezos one. There's an Ari Emanuel one. There's a... There... One from... All those people have their own Andreasen has one.
- SGScott Galloway
So I'm, I'm, I'm going to one of those.
- KSKara Swisher
One of... (laughs) I figured. Yeah. Kara never... You know, the... Ari Emanuel is like, "You should come to this." I'm like, "You never invite me." And he's like, "You should come to this such... This really... You, you, you just take notes for me, okay? Just tell me about it, what it has."
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, it's, um... Yeah. I'm... I usually, I usually don't go anywhere I'm not being paid a lot of money or that-
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
... doesn't involve alcohol and, and people much younger than me.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. There's a lot of alcohol there, trust me. There'll be a lot of alcohol.
- SGScott Galloway
Really?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
I don't want to get, I don't want to get fucked up with these guys, though. I mean-
- KSKara Swisher
I know, but you find things. Find... Be a spy. Be like a spy. Be like Mata Hari.
- 6:33 – 14:28
Charlie Kirk’s Memorial
- KSKara Swisher
about the Charlie Kirk memorial service, five hours, more than 100,000 mourners and top administration officials and Elon Musk. It was equal parts memorial, religious revival, and political rally, hailing Kirk as a martyr and a warrior. Uh, let's listen to two standout moments, first from Charlie Kirk's widow, uh, who emphasized that her husband wanted to help young men. She, I thought, was excellent, I have to say.
- SGScott Galloway
On the cross, our savior said, "Father, forgive them for they not know what they do." That man, that young man, I forgive him.
- NANarrator
(applause)
- KSKara Swisher
And then this one from Donald Trump.
- NANarrator
He did not hate his opponents. He wanted the best for them. That's where I disagreed with Charlie. I hate my opponent. And I don't want the best for them. I'm sorry. I am sorry, Erica.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh my God.
- SGScott Galloway
Did you listen to Stephen Miller's speech?
- KSKara Swisher
Crazy.
- SGScott Galloway
I mean, I thought he was-
- KSKara Swisher
Crazy and hateful.
- SGScott Galloway
... gonna start singing Tomorrow Belongs to Me.
- KSKara Swisher
Belongs to Me.
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, it was so-
- KSKara Swisher
Hateful.
- SGScott Galloway
It was so reminiscent of speeches in '30s Germany. And just to be clear-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
... for those of you who will accuse me of comparing, um, Stephen Miller to a fascist, yeah, I am.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Me too.
- SGScott Galloway
And if he wants to stop being compared to fascists-
- KSKara Swisher
Stop acting.
- SGScott Galloway
... stop acting like a fascist.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. It was just, that was even... I thought Trump's speech was terrible, but, uh, that was really disturbing. Um-
- SGScott Galloway
It was just so over the top. Just like-
- KSKara Swisher
It was. Right. I was thinking-
- SGScott Galloway
You-
- KSKara Swisher
... don't speak at my funeral. Don't speak at my funeral.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah. And, and there's this theme of them and you have awakened a war and they, it's like, who is they exactly?
- KSKara Swisher
You.
- SGScott Galloway
Is it-
- KSKara Swisher
He's talking about you.
- 14:28 – 28:19
Disney's Kimmel Pivot
- KSKara Swisher
is expected to be back on the air Tuesday night. Let me read a statement from a Disney spokesperson. "Last Wednesday, we made the decision to suspend production on the show to avoid further inflaming a tense situation at an emotional moment for our country. It is a decision we made because we felt some of the comments were ill-timed and thus insensitive. We have spent the last days having a thoughtful conversations with Jimmy, and after those conversations, we reached a decision to return the show on Tuesday." First thoughts, first thoughts on this?
- SGScott Galloway
I'm surprised and this is literally another press release gang-banged by a dozen $1,200 an hour comms consultants.
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs)
- SGScott Galloway
And Bob said, "Okay, I have yet another chance to be a leader here, and I've decided to lie." Let me get this. They spoke to Jimmy and he said, "I promise I won't do it again." I mean, this has fucking nothing to do with... First off, his comments were not ill-timed. His-
- KSKara Swisher
They weren't.
- SGScott Galloway
His comment, what did he say? He's in the fourth stage of grief-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
... grief construction.
- KSKara Swisher
It was funny.
- SGScott Galloway
He and all of us have said much worse. And then the Republicans-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, and also, that was a weird response to, "How are you doing about the death of your friend?" It was strange.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, I'm doing very good. I thought it, I think it's very well. But, anyways, this is, they, they should've been... I made a couple observations. The first is, and the one I immediately go to, is I'm now more emboldened, convinced, that a national economic strike is the way (laughs) to go here. Because what happened here was they started getting, uh, actors probably called and said, "I'm not going to work with Disney." They, they saw-
- KSKara Swisher
Yep.
- SGScott Galloway
... thousands of screenshots being sent to them saying, "Okay, I'm canceling Hulu."
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
This was about money. This has nothing to do with principles.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, it happened to Target, as you know. Same thing with their over-production.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, this has nothing to do with Bob Iger talking to Jimmy Kimmel and saying, "Okay, this was, oh no, we fucked up, we miscalibrated, we totally mistook, you know, we took the wrong temperature, we made the wrong decision. People are, are canceling their subscriptions, canceling their trips to Disney, canceling their movie con- they're, they're not going to work with us, it's gonna hurt our share price, so all of a sudden we have found our testicles."
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
Your thoughts?
- KSKara Swisher
I, I, I agree with you. I think, what a fucking waste of time and stupidity. Like what a dumb decision on the behalf of Bi- Iger to do it in the first place. And now they've got, you know, egg on their face, and it just doesn't... I, I can't wait to see what he says. What are they gonna... He's obviously not giving, you know, as, uh, I think it's Sinclair or Nexstar, I think it was Sinclair that demanded that he give money to the Turning Point, uh, group that, uh, Kirk ran. Uh, that's ridiculous. You don't tell people what to give money to. That's insane. He didn't do anything to, you know. It's not like, Roseanne Barr who said heinous things, heinous and racist things about, um, Valerie Jarrett, you know, and they didn't even make her give money, I don't know, to any group. Um, they fired her, that's for sure. And, to me, deservedly in that case. Um, but, uh, but it just, it's so stupid. Like I sit there, I'm like, "What, what is he gonna do?" I, I, as, you and, you and I both think he should just go off and do things on his own. What does he need this crap for, in a dying industry, in a problematic economic situation? He's gonna get the screws put to him on costs now, because there are some significant issues around costs and audience and everything else. So, I just, I, I'm curious why he returned. I feel like he had the upper hand here, because it's such a bone-headed move by Disney. And it puts a stain on, on Bob Iger. That's it. Just does for the rest of his life. This is what he's gonna be, the payoff about Stephanopoulos and now this.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, it's, I mean it does, it is actually quite significant because this is... The, the Republicans were claiming, "Oh no, it wasn't president, it wasn't pressure from the administration. It was a private company doing what they're allowed to do, because private companies don't have to honor..."...First Amendment. They can fire people for whatever- pretty much whatever reason they want, unless it's-
- KSKara Swisher
Sure can.
- SGScott Galloway
... has to do with discrimination or their sexual orientation or their race or whatever, or you know. But they get, they get to hire and fire at will. They're at-will employees. My guess is he has 160 people working with him and didn't... I mean, the gangster move here would be for him to come back to in a vicious dialogue and say, "And by the way, um, I came back on, I stood up for my principles. I don't wanna work for this company anymore. This is my last show."
- KSKara Swisher
Oh.
- SGScott Galloway
And it's easy for me to be generous with the livelihoods of the 160 people who work with him and with his money 'cause stars have a habit of even if they make 10 or, 10 or $20 million, spending it all.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
And so, you know, I don't know how much he needs the money, but it- it- i- it- he is in, he is sitting on top of a melting ice cube. And it- it- it- Trump's gonna go, Trump's gonna get angry. But this, this represents something bigger and that is, of all the things they've done, tariffs were not a bridge too far. Rounding up people, including citizens, and sending them to effectively what are black sites, that didn't seem to be a bridge too far. This feels like it may be that red line we were all waiting for.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, not the Epstein files, although I still think they're still alive. I think that's still ?
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, I think that's still playing out. But it's clear, I mean, even Senator Cruz kind of read the tea leaves here and said, "Look, folks, they could come for us."
- 28:19 – 36:55
H1-B Visa Chaos
- KSKara Swisher
uh, Trump administration's new price, $100,000 price tag, uh, on H, uh,1B visas for skilled foreign workers. The Friday announcement had companies and their lawyers scrambling to get workers in place before the new policy took effect on Sunday. The White House later clarified the charges only apply to new visas, not renewals or current visa holders, and does not affect holder's ability to travel to and from the US. Of course, they rolled it out stupidly. Amazon employs over 14,000 H-1B holders, and Microsoft, Meta, and Apple and Google employ over 4,000. It's a, it's a big deal. Uh, some people were backing it, like, uh, Ne- uh, Netflix, uh, f- founder, co-founder, uh, Reed Hastings. Um, a lot of people have been in ar- up in arms about these things, and the complexity, and who gets them, and everything else. I, I don't mind some reform here. I would agree with Reed on that. Um, what are your thoughts on this, from, from a, from a, uh, employer, employment perspective?
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, so this is, this is, um... the, the fact pattern continues, and that is, these people don't understand basic economics, um, and how markets work. And that is, one of the core advantages of America is that we have the greatest inflows, historic, unprecedented inflows of capital. But there are two different forms of capital. One is actual financial capital. For the last 15 years, everyone has been buying US stocks. We have the cheapest financing. There are S- $5 million in venture capital available for every startup in the United States. There's $1 million in venture capital financing for every startup in Europe. That means our startups have more fuel in the tank, can take bigger risks, can attract better people. Anyways, you get cars, washing machines. You know, e- everything is cheaper because of the massive inflow of financial capital in terms of our ability to build things, in terms of our ability to finance and afford things. Also something that people don't pay as much attention to is we have unprecedented access to global human capital from the four corners of the earth, and that is the best and brightest from, from Sri Lanka to, to South Africa, to Seoul, all have one thing in common, and that is their parents think, "If I'm really successful, the ultimate signal or validation of my success is that I can send my kid to an elite American university."... it costs half a million dollars, it's 90 points of margin. I mean, just to riff a bit, for a second on how stupid we're being there, discouraging people from applying to global schools. There were a bunch of universities, including I think Duke, that sent a message out to their foreign students on certain visas, "Don't leave the U.S. this summer 'cause you might not be able to get back in." We, we ch- bring in these kids who tend to be the richest, most talented people in the world, and a lot of them... and then we charge them a half a million dollars over four years in rent, Chipotle, tuition, w- at 90 points of gross margin. This is an unbelievable business. And then, a lot of them fall in love, decide to go to the, go work for Salesforce, stay here, go home, feel better about America, or go on to be the CEOs of fucking MasterCard, Adobe, and Microsoft. (laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. That's right.
- SGScott Galloway
And those are just the people from India. So what are we doing here? By charging $100,000, we've opted for some brain dead short-term thinking that we can make money, but-
- KSKara Swisher
Well, he likes to do that with the tariffs, the same thing.
- SGScott Galloway
But all you're gonna do is discourage... Y- you're gonna say, "Okay." There's two types of people, and I'm being reductive here, at Stern. The inter- I say this on the first day of class, "Find the international students and get to know them. One, they're the funnest people to party with, and two, they're the richest people in the world. 'Cause the reason they're here is 'cause their dad owns the license to PNG in Honduras. Get to know them, 'cause the next time you go there, you're gonna have the best time 'cause their father owns the TV station there." And it's a little bit embarrassing, but it's true. And then you have the PhD students. Those people we have to pay, they are literally the brightest young human capital in the world. They are just extraordinary. And we get them from the four corners of the planet. So what you're saying is, "I just want the rich kids, not necessarily the most talented." In addition, Kara, my firms were, were, were built by two things, overachieving young women and also people who wanted to stay here and I was willing to sponsor them. So the key, my key programmer at Red Envelope, Jawad Mohammed, an immigrant from Pakistan, the key consultant at L2, a Canadian woman named Claude DeJokas, if, if it'd cost $100,000 or cost me $100,000 to get them to stay, I would have said, "I love you, but I can't afford this." So who can afford it? The same people.
- KSKara Swisher
Same people.
- SGScott Galloway
Meta, Alphabet. So all this is, is one, a reduction in an incredible resource that we attract from the four corners of the earth in terms of human capital, and two, yet another transfer of capital and power-
- KSKara Swisher
To the big guys. To the big-
- SGScott Galloway
... from the 99.9% of firms that can't afford to pay (laughs) $100,000 for somebody-
- KSKara Swisher
And they won't have the
- NANarrator
in.
- SGScott Galloway
... to the folks who can.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, so-
- SGScott Galloway
Mark Zuckerberg is licking his lips because-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
... all the shitty little startups nipping at his heels that might disrupt him-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
... now will no longer have access to the most talented people abroad.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. So one of the things, let me read you Reed Hasting's one. Um, "I've worked on HB-1 politi- H-1B politics for 30 years. Trump's $100,000 per year tax is a great solution. It will mean H-1B is used for very high value jobs, which will mean the lotter- no lottery needed, and more certainty for these jobs." Ho- react to that.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, uh, well, first off, I think Reed is fantastic. And, um, when he said that, it immediately gave me pause because any time Reed says something, I-
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
... that, that is not corr- or not correct, that doesn't align with my values, I stop and think, "Well, maybe this guy has a point because I have a lot of respect for what he's saying." I think it works for Netflix. I think they can afford to bring in these folks. But if you're some... I, I just don't... It shouldn't be based on, in my view, the greatest thing about... (sighs) I mean, we've just benefited enormously from people who are, one, willing to take risks. There's something to the guy who's willing to crawl over fences and risk being shot at who makes for a really good services worker. (laughs) You know, there, there, that DNA of, of risk-taking w- that when people in the UK ask me to summarize the difference between our success and theirs, and there's just no doubt about it, our success, we've just blown away Europe the last 34 years.
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, in immigration.
- SGScott Galloway
I say, "It all comes down to one thing." And I look at the audience of UK citizens or European citizens and I said, "My parents, at the ages of 19 and 21, got on a steamship with no money to come to the U.S." And I said, "You're the ones that stayed." And then, in the U.S., it's not, it's even regional within the U.S. Think about where all the most valuable companies have been made. It's people who inherited the DNA of their forefathers, who were willing to take a risk, go over the Rockies and eat their cousins to find a better life. So the riskier you get, the more risk-aggressive you get, that DNA, plus the ability to draw on this grand human capital results in the most profitable, most valuable companies in history that pays for our navy-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, so-
- SGScott Galloway
... and for food stamps.
- KSKara Swisher
A- a- let me just say, I suspect at that dinner, they said to do this and he did it. And he lo- he can make a like, "Look, we've raised over 10 million."
- SGScott Galloway
Who said to do it?
- KSKara Swisher
I, I, I bet at that tech dinner, when they were there, all the ones who will benefit from that suggested this to Trump, right? It just ca-
- 36:55 – 42:30
Trump Asks Bondi to Charge Enemies
- KSKara Swisher
been on Truth Social, uh, publicly complaining to Attorney General Pam Bondi. The President posted in a message to Bondi that looked like a DM that the lack of criminal charges against his enemies was, quote, "Killing our reputation and credibility." Boy, he's a lot smarter when he's DMing. Uh, Trump's, I mean-... heinous, but smart. Trump specifically called out Senator Adam Schiff, former FBI director James Comey and New York Attorney General Letitia James. In the post, he also seemed to recommend his, uh, uh, former personal lawyer, Lindsay Halligan, to take the probes, writing to Bondi, "Lindsay Halligan is a really good lawyer and likes you a lot." That's who's apparently gonna be doing this now. Um, this is, uh, you know, Trump has been way too easy on his enemies so far. I mean, this is, um, baloney charges. The, the other guy left 'cause he couldn't charge Letitia James. He just didn't have evidence. The same thing with Lisa Cook. It's often a Black woman, which is interesting. Um, this is anti-rule of law. Like, and he's, and of course, he... And bad at doing DMs versus public posts, but that's another issue all together.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah. Uh, look, I, I largely agree with you. The only thing, I think it's unfair to say he's targeting Black women. The, the people... And also, I don't... I would probably push back on the fact that he's just started, that he's been easy on his enemies so far. He removed the security detail of the general-
- KSKara Swisher
No, I'm joking. That was a joke, my friend.
- SGScott Galloway
Oh, excuse me. Okay, so-
- KSKara Swisher
No, he's been terrible to his enemies.
- SGScott Galloway
But, you know-
- KSKara Swisher
Terrible.
- SGScott Galloway
... he's removing the security detail on the generals who ordered the strike against or the, the head of Iranian security. You gotta think that guy is very nervous right now.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
He raided or-
- KSKara Swisher
Kamala Harris.
- SGScott Galloway
... ordered the raid of an FBI that has yet to really come out with why, what justified that raid of former, you know, head of security advisor, uh, John Bolton. So, he's very much about going after, weaponizing government to go after his political enemies. This is-
- KSKara Swisher
And help his friends. Let's note Tom Homan who seemed to have gotten, uh, they seem to have video of him accepting a bribe.
- SGScott Galloway
Can you believe this shit?
- KSKara Swisher
Ugh, it's just like-
- SGScott Galloway
Tom Homan-
- KSKara Swisher
This is the head of Homeland Security. Let me just say, allegedly took a bribe. Allegedly, they have video wat- doing him doing in a bag. A nicer bag, I guess, but it was cash for the contract.
- SGScott Galloway
But it was the FBI. It's, this is-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, this is the thing that's so disappointing. I'm, I'm disappointed that they're unethical and they're essentially engaging in crime after they've been entrusted with, you know, the most important thing in the world, and that is protecting our borders and protecting the commonwealth of the United States, which has given them so much. But they're not only criminals, they're just so fucking cheap criminals. He, he was willing to potentially go to jail, deny his oath of the Constitution, let down all the people at ICE. I imagine there's some very good people there who put themselves in harm's way. Think they're, thinking they're doing the right thing, for fucking $50,000?
- KSKara Swisher
I know. He's a cheap, he's a cheap-
- SGScott Galloway
I mean, it's like-
- KSKara Swisher
... corrupt person.
- SGScott Galloway
It's like, boss, do, do a reasonable job-
- KSKara Swisher
I know.
- SGScott Galloway
... as the head of ICE. You're gonna get invited to be on five corporate vo- boards at a quarter of a million dollars a year plus. I don't think a corporate board is gonna want anything to do with Tom Homan though.
- KSKara Swisher
With him. They're not gonna want anything to do with him, period.
- SGScott Galloway
So, they're not only, they're not only criminal, they're stupid-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
... if these allegations are true. And the, the strangest thing about this is this is like a Watergate-level scandal almost (laughs) .
- 42:30 – 51:04
TikTok Deal Latest
- KSKara Swisher
more details about how Donald Trump's TikTok deal is shaking out. Oracle founder, Larry Ellison, Rupert Murdoch apparently. Michael Dell will likely be included in the group taking over the American branch of the app. You can't tell. Trump lets out all kinds of weird little facts, some of which may be true, some of which not. Oracle would reportedly run and secure TikTok's algorithm in the US. Under proposed terms of the deal, ByteDance would lease a copy of the algorithm to this new group, which is problematic, and Oracle would retrain it, okay. Uh, uh, you know, Andreessen's in here. All his pals, all the pals, and I think they're probably doing it to calm Mur- Murdoch down 'cause they were, 'cause Trump was also suing Murdoch. Um, lot of old, old White guys running TikTok. Sounds young and fresh. Uh, I don't know. I just feel like this might be the beginning of the end for TikTok, but maybe not. I don't know. Scott, what do you think?
- SGScott Galloway
What I don't get is, I don't, I don't think it's a smart move, and that is, for these guys, because one, I think, I don't think the deal's gonna go through. I think she is just toying with, um, with, uh, Trump, saying, "Delay, delay, get the bankers involved, have a lot of concerns, redo the deal, undo the deal, redo it, undo it." And then Congress, new Congress comes in and, and starts, starts calling all these people in front of him and saying, "Marc Andreessen, do you think it's fair that you have first, rights of first refusal versus your competitors? Please explain to me the capitalism that's made you rich and how that..." And I, I, if I were these guys, I mean basically, they're all going on a mental list of people. Governments, the White House and Congress always pivots back and forth, that's one of the healthier things about our democracy. Typically, what everybody wants, the only thing you know they want, is they usually want change. (laughs) They usually want, "Okay, let's try something different," and they go, they swing to the other side. What happens when you're the VC firm that engaged in this type of, uh, you know, um, oligarchy, when you're the wealthiest man in the world who, you know, was the Republican donor? Don't you, aren't they inclined to say, "You know, we've thought about it, and there's some regulations we're passing that, oh, what do you know, they're especially punitive on AI da- and database firms and on VC..." I, I, these guys are just setting themselves up...
- KSKara Swisher
They are.
- SGScott Galloway
... for-
- KSKara Swisher
Or are they?
- SGScott Galloway
Let me put it this way, do they think that, do they think re- that political retribution that impacts private sector individuals is solely limited to Republicans? I think their bet is, "The Republicans are kind of craven oligarchs, but the Democrats won't do that to us. The Democrats-"
- KSKara Swisher
They, they think-
- SGScott Galloway
"... they'll play by the rules, those fucking wimps."
- KSKara Swisher
I think they think that, I think they think they'll win a, they, they'll do everything they can to stop the Democrats from getting back in power, and then they will-
- SGScott Galloway
Good luck.
- KSKara Swisher
I just don't think the Democrats will come back.
- SGScott Galloway
I mean, it may not be 26 or 28, but it'll happen eventually, guys.
- KSKara Swisher
Yes.
- SGScott Galloway
It always does.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, I know, but I just feel like they're not gonna... Look, uh, let's talk about the product of TikTok. All it does is make people be like, "Do I really need this TikTok?" I, I have to tell you, I am really enjoying Instagram and Threads. I, like, whether they get big or not, they're just, like, pleasant. Like, in terms of, I'm talking about I watch food being made. I'm not talking about political discussions. I had an interesting guy who I like, Chris Fraylick, write me saying, "You've got to get back on, uh," I, I'm gonna read it 'cause it was really interesting. He texted me, um, uh, this week, uh, ask, telling me I should get back on, you and I should get back on Twitter. That's what he was saying. Um, let me just read it 'cause it's, I like Chris a lot. Um, he goes, um, "You're more famous than ever but changing less minds. Your latest pivot was fantastic, a banger. It went out to your only your faithful. Your top posts on Twitter are from 2023. At the very least, you should put out a copy of recent great episodes on X and tag them, all the toady hypocrites, and call them out. Uh, Scott would call it violence, uh, would call the violence on full capitalism or similar." "Do it," said Chris. And I was like, "We're doing great everywhere we were." Our, our, our audience is growing, our revenues are growing, uh, our demo is diverse. I went on and I said, "Twitter is a waste of time and always has been. It gets us exactly zero new listeners. Both Scott and I do not post there anymore because it is a Nazi porn bar and makes us feel badly. So all due respect and thanks for the suggestion, but hard pass." Um, uh, what do you think about this? I find it, them useless over there and spending my time arguing with people who hate me. I don't know. What do you think?
- SGScott Galloway
Well, I, I take mental health really seriously 'cause I have fragile mental health. I used to like to tell people that I was mentally really strong. What I figured out was that I'm m- m- mentally strong to everyone around me, I'm good in a crisis, I'm helpful to other people, but, you know, I'm very hard on myself and I get depressed a lot and angry a lot. And I figured out, okay, what makes me feel better and also what triggers it? And the things that make me feel better are sweating, eating clean, abstinence from alcohol and THC for a while, being around family, and affection. Like, touch with my dogs, touch with my kids. That, that sounded weird. Anyways, but those things help reverse my downward spiral.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
Also, one of the biggest mental health hacks I have registered in the last five years was getting off Twitter.
- KSKara Swisher
Yep.
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, uh, there, the, the, the level of vitriol, the algorithms, uh, highlighting and encouraging people to say incredibly vile, unfair things about not only you, but about the other people commenting, and this great weirdness where you have to go back and see, you know, okay, there's a bunch of people arguing over whether I should be called Professor Genocide.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
And then I don't, you don't get that shit on the other platforms. (laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
No, you don't. They don't. It's-
- SGScott Galloway
Or people, or people making-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
... white supremacist comments-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
... and, and also, and also, you said something that really impacted me. You said, "I'm not gonna paint that guy's fucking fence." And by that guy-
- KSKara Swisher
I'm, I also, it, away from all that, it doesn't make us money. It never did.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, that's, that's-
- 51:04 – 1:02:11
Wins and Fails
- KSKara Swisher
Scott, let's do some wins and fails. Shall I go first?
- SGScott Galloway
You go first.
- KSKara Swisher
I have to say K-pop Demon Hunters. I know it's been a trend already, but it is so good, and what's interesting is it was put together by, uh, Korean-Americans and Korean-Canadians. Now it's really popular in Korea too. Um, just an amazing group of people who are, you know, all these people sort of trained to be, um... Just the group behind it is really interesting. What an interesting idea. Um, they took advantage of the K-pop popularity. It's a, it's really well done. The animation, I really like. The music is so infectious and terrific. Um, we, we, I, uh, I have t- I under now, having watched it, um, uh, twice now, uh, it's, it's really, really good. It's really (laughs) just really good. Well done, uh, Netflix. Uh, my fail is Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s continuing attacks on children. Um, I, they're now going after Tylenol. Listen, I'm no, uh, you wanna read a book, No More Tears, uh, uh, by Gar- I think it's Gardner Harris, I believe, uh, is some book. Like, it really is something, um, w- all the problems these, these drug companies have brought upon us, all the, all the stuff they've done that's been awful, it's called No More Tears. It's really shocking, uh, the stuff they pulled, but R.F. Kennedy setting, setting Tylenol to autism, that recent meeting they had, it is so not science based, and all these studies do not show this. I think we should find out the causes of autism. I, I think they're quite, probably quite complex, um, but this is no way to do this. This kind of nonsensical non-science approach by non-science people is incredibly dangerous. So, um, again, not a fan of big drug (laughs) companies, but Jesus Christ, this is, th- they're killing children. They're killing children is what they're doing. Go ahead.
- SGScott Galloway
Um, yeah. I like your, "I gotta w- I gotta watch that K-pop film." My win is that people essentially deciding to take up economic arms against Disney. I do think generally in the past some boycotts work, most do not. But there's even, if you look historically, like there was an economic strike in Russia that h- had huge impact, um, in the earlier part of the 20th century. I mean, there have been instances all over the world where economic strikes have really been effective, and I do think that people canceling Disney+, Hulu, ESPN, be clear they notice, and it'll come up in the next earnings call because to be clear that all of these firms need to stop using the term stakeholders. They use the term stakeholders as a means of trying to deflect scrutiny and pretend they were, you know, they were virtuous and virtue signaled that they cared more about their share price. 97, 98% of a senior management's compensation will come from options on stock. So, all they care about is shareholder value. Now some people might argue that's fine, and I think that's fine, but stop the stakeholder thing, and if you wanna hurt these companies or you wanna send a message, um, and I, you know, look, this is hard now, this is easy to recommend now that I no longer have kids, but if you're planning to go to Disney in the ve- near future, maybe go to Universal, maybe go somewhere else. Uh, and also th- the easiest thing to do right away is cancel the host of Disney, Disney apps. And it looks as if we're seeing a lot of that. So that's my win is I'm increasingly believing that people need to start flexing their spending and, uh, economic strike muscles, so my win is people take-
- KSKara Swisher
What do you mean you no longer have kids? (laughs) You have k- you don't have kids that use Disney.
- SGScott Galloway
No, I have, yeah, I no longer, I, uh-
- KSKara Swisher
Well, some of them might be Disneyland.
- SGScott Galloway
I used to do 364 days a year of, of fairly mediocre parenting, and that where I would make up for it is I would agree to take the kids for one or two days and all of their friends to the seventh circle of hell to Disney.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
And so I used to take my kids to Disney every year. Now they're out of that. Then they go to Universal when they're and they're, you know, they hit 13, 14. Now we're hopefully out of that stage. I can just take them to Drake or to The Weeknd-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
... or to Premier League games. My-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, my kids are watching not, my little kids are watching Disney all the time. The older ones are too, but-
- SGScott Galloway
Well, you're about to go through it again.
- KSKara Swisher
I'm not going to Disneyland.
- SGScott Galloway
All right.
- KSKara Swisher
I'm, I'll go to Universal.
- SGScott Galloway
(laughs) You're like that, you're the opposite of that commercial. "What are you doing?" "I'm not going to Disneyland." (laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
Well, I never liked it. One time, I went though-
- SGScott Galloway
Well, no one likes, no adult likes it unless you're weird.
- KSKara Swisher
Uh, no, I really didn't like it. It was a very, f- you know, um, I, I call it a, when I, and then during an interview with Iger one time, I called it the unhappiest place on Earth. Um, but anyway, so I wasn't ever a fan. I'm not, I'm definitely not going now. But go ahead.
- SGScott Galloway
And then, uh, you got me thinking actually, with this, uh, this conversation you're having this afternoon with the family whose, whose, um, son committed suicide after establishing, what, this parasocial or synthetic relationship. You know, we've been studying... You've been in tech for longer than me, or covering it. I've been in technology a long time, and in 2017, and this is how we met, when I wrote the book, The Four, back then, ev- the only discussion around The Four was who was gonna be president, Jeff Bezos or Sheryl Sandberg. And I, basically my book was, uh, "There is a problem here." (laughs) These companies represent real risks to society and to income inequality and concentration of power. And I think we're gonna look back on this and think, "Why didn't we think about this earlier, sooner?" And typically, it takes 20 years. It took 20 years of overdoses and people dying from opiates. It took kind of 20 years before we started the education around, "Okay, smoking is bad for you." It typically takes 20... It's starting to happen with phones, kind of smartphones 20 years later, people are starting to ban phones in schools. I'm gonna skip to the part where it should take 20 months, not 20 years around one specific type of technology that, uh, as someone who thinks they have a decent understanding of teenagers and of technology, the scariest thing on the horizon isn't AI weapons or AI-powered drones. It's these character AIs, especially character AIs who establish a relationship with young people whose w- brains are being wired and have huge needs for friendship, and are trying to figure this out, uh, relationships. And basically, character AI is intimacy without the friction. No awkward pauses, no vulnerability, no rejection. And that is literally, uh, opium to a teenager.
- KSKara Swisher
Yep.
- SGScott Galloway
But it's-
- KSKara Swisher
It's opium to adults too. I mean, men-
- SGScott Galloway
But especially to kids.
- KSKara Swisher
... and teenagers, 100%.
- SGScott Galloway
It's basically... It's also, it's emotional malnutrition just as ultra-processed foods, you know, they hack our taste buds but they leave us obese and undernourished. S- synthetic relationships similarly risk leaving young people overstimulated-
- KSKara Swisher
Very good comparison.
- SGScott Galloway
... yet starved for real human connection, and they, they learn to expect relationships to be endlessly responsive, ego-stroking-
Episode duration: 1:02:11
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