Jimmy Kimmel Returns — Disney Under Pressure | Pivot

Scott Galloway 0:00 I mean, the gangster move here would be for him to come back doing a vicious dialogue and say, "And by the way, I came back on, I stood up for my principles. I don't want to work for this company anymore. This is my last show."

Kara Swisher 0:15 Oh. (instrumental music) Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway 0:23 And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher 0:24 How are you doing, Scott?

Scott Galloway 0:25 I'm feeling okay. I slept a lot yesterday. I had a nice weekend. I get a little bit lonely when I'm traveling for a while, so I'm a little bit lonely. Um...

Kara Swisher 0:33 Oh.

Scott Galloway 0:34 Uh, but yeah, I'm fine. Without the dogs, without the kids-

Kara Swisher 0:37 Good.

Scott Galloway 0:37 ... you know, but everything's fine.

Kara Swisher 0:38 Yeah. When do you go back? When do you get back?

Scott Galloway 0:42 Uh, I go... Well, I'm in New York now. I go to Aspen for this, uh, an event. I'm not even sure you're supposed to talk about it. It's one of these events where we redraw the maps of the world in rooms and-

Kara Swisher 0:53 Oh, right, one of those secret ones?

Scott Galloway 0:54 ... talk about climate change.

Kara Swisher 0:57 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 0:57 And, you know, people pretend to care about the world as they wash out founders of AI to get their seven, seventh billion.

Kara Swisher 1:03 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:03 Um, but I'm very excited. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 1:05 Are you getting invited to those things? I never get in those rooms. I never get invited.

Scott Galloway 1:09 Uh, yeah, I am... Uh, I, I am all of a sudden. I, I was never invited-

Kara Swisher 1:14 There's a Bezos one. There's an Ari Emanuel one. There's a... There... One from... All those people have their own Andreasen has one.

Scott Galloway 1:19 So I'm, I'm, I'm going to one of those.

Kara Swisher 1:21 One of... (laughs) I figured. Yeah. Kara never... You know, the... Ari Emanuel is like, "You should come to this." I'm like, "You never invite me." And he's like, "You should come to this such... This really... You, you, you just take notes for me, okay? Just tell me about it, what it has."

Scott Galloway 1:33 Yeah, it's, um... Yeah. I'm... I usually, I usually don't go anywhere I'm not being paid a lot of money or that-

Kara Swisher 1:39 Right.

Scott Galloway 1:39 ... doesn't involve alcohol and, and people much younger than me.

Kara Swisher 1:41 Yeah. There's a lot of alcohol there, trust me. There'll be a lot of alcohol.

Scott Galloway 1:43 Really?

Kara Swisher 1:44 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:44 I don't want to get, I don't want to get fucked up with these guys, though. I mean-

Kara Swisher 1:47 I know, but you find things. Find... Be a spy. Be like a spy. Be like Mata Hari.

Scott Galloway 1:52 Yeah, such that I'm never invited back again. So just, uh, just misery loves company, or, or to enter into this club, I've been uninvited or dis-invited from some very important conferences. Uh, the JPMorgan Alternative Investment Summit in Miami, which is like the... It literally is a Super Bowl. Ho- half the world's GDP is there. And I was invited two years in a row. In the last year I was there, they always invite me to give predictions, and then I sit down and interview somebody. And I sat down and interviewed this, this young woman who's an influencer, and just as we were about done, I said, "But be careful. The person I interviewed last year was Adam Neumann."

Kara Swisher 2:30 Oh, God.

Scott Galloway 2:31 And supposedly, that really upset the people at JPMorgan because I guess they were one of-

Kara Swisher 2:37 Oh, yeah.

Scott Galloway 2:37 ... the investment banks-

Kara Swisher 2:38 They were like-

Scott Galloway 2:38 ... planning to take him public or something.

Kara Swisher 2:39 They were in a cuddle puddle with him. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 2:42 Yeah. Anyways, didn't get invited back then and I haven't been invited back since. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 2:45 Yeah. Geez, you're so bigoted.

Scott Galloway 2:46 And also, I don't know if I was dis-invited, but I, I got to go to Davos when I was in my early 30s th- three years in a row, and then they... I haven't been invited back since. So, yeah.

Kara Swisher 2:58 Yeah. I never got invited to Davos, just so you know.

Scott Galloway 3:00 Well, I've like sent all kinds of hints and messages like-

Kara Swisher 3:02 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 3:02 ... "I'd love to come back, dah, dah, dah. It was so great."

Kara Swisher 3:04 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 3:04 No invite. (laughs) No invite. I peaked.

Kara Swisher 3:08 I like not getting invited.

Scott Galloway 3:08 When did you peak? I peaked at like 34. Have you determined when your peak is?

Kara Swisher 3:11 Oh, no, I'm peaking. My fir- I'm continuing to peak. Uh, it just... Uh, the fact that they don't invite-

Scott Galloway 3:15 Yeah. Somehow I knew you were going to say that.

Kara Swisher 3:17 Yeah. I feel like I'm peaking even more so. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:19 Yeah?

Kara Swisher 3:20 I do. I feel like it doesn't matter. Uh, one thing I learned along the journey was, uh, I don't care if I don't get invited. It doesn't make it better or worse. You don't get better interviews. You don't... Sometimes you don't get people, that's for sure. I, I think about this a lot, this sort of access-y kind of thing. I don't think I've suffered for not getting certain interviews anymore. I think I've done... And the other day I thought, "I'm done with that person. I don't ever want to talk to them again." Like, I was like, "I don't care if I talk to them, if I do, if I don't." So, I don't know. I, I have more of a, a whatever. I'll do the best thing.

Scott Galloway 3:50 I, I actually find, I find these events are usually really well done.

Kara Swisher 3:56 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:56 And also, I think it's really important that people like that get together and meet other people and expand their horizon. I think those events actually play a really, a really important role. So, you know when I peaked? I, I peaked when I was nine. When I was nine-

Kara Swisher 4:12 No, you didn't.

Scott Galloway 4:13 ... I was an all S- San Fernando Valley pitcher. I was getting, I was, I was getting... Every day, me and Debbie Brubaker were sent from the fourth grade to the sixth grade to do math and English.

Kara Swisher 4:24 Oh, wow. Jeez.

Scott Galloway 4:25 Uh, I was the fastest kid in the fourth grade at Emiliano High School, and I was getting like straight As. And then my parents got divorced, we moved homes, and I began a slow descent that's lasted-

Kara Swisher 4:38 Yes.

Scott Galloway 4:38 ... about 50 years.

Kara Swisher 4:39 Yeah, I hear about-

Scott Galloway 4:40 Also, I was featured-

Kara Swisher 4:40 I'm sure that's how people-

Scott Galloway 4:40 ... in the San Fernando Valley newspaper.

Kara Swisher 4:42 Can I just say, I think that's why people look at you and say, "He's peaked at nine." That's how they talk.

Scott Galloway 4:46 At nine? No, that's what peo- people came up to me and said.

Kara Swisher 4:48 That's not true. You are yet to peak. You have yet to peak, I have to tell you. And I don't say-

Scott Galloway 4:52 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 4:52 ... that just 'cause I'm an arrogant person. Uh, it's because I really believe it. I like... I feel like I have lots... And, and also, I feel a little bit like, hmm, I'm gonna do something. I don't feel like I'm at risk in a way. Um, I don't know. I just feel like, hmm, I'll do the next thing. I'll do the next thing, and I feel good about that.

Scott Galloway 5:10 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 5:10 Including doing stuff with you. I like doing stuff. I... Everything I do, I love doing. That's all I have to say. And let me just say, uh, Scott did me a favor. I'm interviewing the parents of the ChatGPT story about the kid who committed suicide. And, and, and Scott did amaz- I, I... Someone I was gonna do it couldn't do it at the last minute, and I got Scott to do it, and he gave... He did a great... I really appreciate it. It's an incredibly thoughtful question. It was very good.

Scott Galloway 5:34 Uh, it's my pleasure. But the key there, in the story of my life, was the person I wanted couldn't make it, so we invited Scott.

Kara Swisher 5:40 (laughs) No, it was a person who made sense f- for that particular thing, but I was... I, I, I didn't want to bother you, is what I really... It wasn't that.

Scott Galloway 5:47 Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 5:47 I'd invite you for every question.

Scott Galloway 5:49 Me sitting alone eating Chipotle in my loft in SoHo.

Kara Swisher 5:52 (laughs) Why eat Chipotle?

Scott Galloway 5:52 Yeah. I'm so busy.

Kara Swisher 5:53 You have so much good food around there. You like Chipotle.

Scott Galloway 5:56 Yeah, Chipotle.

Kara Swisher 5:57 Gives you comfort.

Scott Galloway 5:58 Uh, if it's not Jack's Wife Rita or Chipotle, I'm not interested.

Kara Swisher 6:01 I noticed that. You also like the place that has the tuna, tunicatos.

Scott Galloway 6:05 ...tunicado. Oh, Joe and the Juice.

Kara Swisher 6:08 Joe and the Juice. You have-

Scott Galloway 6:09 God, could I be more, like-

Kara Swisher 6:11 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 6:11 ... uh, I don't know what the term is.

Kara Swisher 6:13 I do know a lot about you. It's interesting.

Scott Galloway 6:15 You do.

Kara Swisher 6:15 I do.

Scott Galloway 6:15 We're very close.

Kara Swisher 6:16 Anyway, it was very thoughtful-

Scott Galloway 6:18 Very close.

Kara Swisher 6:18 ... what you did. I really appreciate it. Um, anyway, we've got a lot to get to today, including Jimmy Kimmel's return. He's back. H-1B visa chaos and more details about a potential TikTok deal. Lots of business today, Scott. But first, let's talk

Kara Swisher 6:33 about the Charlie Kirk memorial service, five hours, more than 100,000 mourners and top administration officials and Elon Musk. It was equal parts memorial, religious revival, and political rally, hailing Kirk as a martyr and a warrior. Uh, let's listen to two standout moments, first from Charlie Kirk's widow, uh, who emphasized that her husband wanted to help young men. She, I thought, was excellent, I have to say.

Scott Galloway 6:55 On the cross, our savior said, "Father, forgive them for they not know what they do." That man, that young man, I forgive him.

Narrator 7:24 (applause)

Kara Swisher 7:25 And then this one from Donald Trump.

Narrator 7:28 He did not hate his opponents. He wanted the best for them. That's where I disagreed with Charlie. I hate my opponent. And I don't want the best for them. I'm sorry. I am sorry, Erica.

Kara Swisher 7:44 Oh my God.

Scott Galloway 7:45 Did you listen to Stephen Miller's speech?

Kara Swisher 7:46 Crazy.

Scott Galloway 7:48 I mean, I thought he was-

Kara Swisher 7:50 Crazy and hateful.

Scott Galloway 7:50 ... gonna start singing Tomorrow Belongs to Me.

Kara Swisher 7:53 Belongs to Me.

Scott Galloway 7:53 Uh, it was so-

Kara Swisher 7:55 Hateful.

Scott Galloway 7:56 It was so reminiscent of speeches in '30s Germany. And just to be clear-

Kara Swisher 8:01 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 8:01 ... for those of you who will accuse me of comparing, um, Stephen Miller to a fascist, yeah, I am.

Kara Swisher 8:08 Yeah. Me too.

Scott Galloway 8:09 And if he wants to stop being compared to fascists-

Kara Swisher 8:12 Stop acting.

Scott Galloway 8:13 ... stop acting like a fascist.

Kara Swisher 8:14 Yeah. It was just, that was even... I thought Trump's speech was terrible, but, uh, that was really disturbing. Um-

Scott Galloway 8:20 It was just so over the top. Just like-

Kara Swisher 8:21 It was. Right. I was thinking-

Scott Galloway 8:23 You-

Kara Swisher 8:23 ... don't speak at my funeral. Don't speak at my funeral.

Scott Galloway 8:26 Yeah. And, and there's this theme of them and you have awakened a war and they, it's like, who is they exactly?

Kara Swisher 8:36 You.

Scott Galloway 8:36 Is it-

Kara Swisher 8:37 He's talking about you.

Scott Galloway 8:38 Is it-

Kara Swisher 8:38 Me.

Scott Galloway 8:39 Is it white males from Mormon families who are gun owners? Like who, who is they?

Kara Swisher 8:46 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 8:46 Is it people who have relationships or, uh, or supposedly have relationships with trans people? Like who-

Kara Swisher 8:55 I don't know.

Scott Galloway 8:55 You know, that's the thing about extremism is you, you, you try to find an enemy such that you feel better about yourself.

Kara Swisher 9:02 Yes.

Scott Galloway 9:02 But it's so... And the thing about... I just find this all so disappointing. What, what she said was very moving and you can sort of feel her grief. And, and you would think that, and some political leaders have tried to do this, but what if one side is successful? 98% of the capital or effort right now is going towards trying to cherry-pick evidence. The left is guilty of this, but much less than the right is guilty of this. Trying to cherry-pick evidence that will convince a bunch of people that it was the other's fault. And the question is, assume you win and you convince people that it was either the radical right or the radical left's fault. All that does is get more violence (laughs) . You know?

Kara Swisher 9:47 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 9:47 That's not gonna do anything.

Kara Swisher 9:49 No.

Scott Galloway 9:49 And none of these people, again, wanna talk about the real culprits here. So I actually thought the service, I think it's nice when a bunch of people get together to mourn something and have-

Kara Swisher 10:00 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:00 ... sort of a collective healing. I think that's a good thing. It's not... You know, I don't... The people on stage and, and their tone was not one of forgiveness and honoring his life. It felt more like a...

Kara Swisher 10:12 No, it was an opportunity.

Scott Galloway 10:14 Well, I, I wrote a post on Friday in my, my newsletter called Violence Entrepreneurship.

Kara Swisher 10:19 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:19 And they see an opportunity to leverage violence to try and-

Kara Swisher 10:23 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:23 ... advance their own political gains as opposed to saying... Anyway, I-

Kara Swisher 10:28 Yeah. No. I... Remember-

Scott Galloway 10:29 Oh, this is very...

Kara Swisher 10:29 ... y- you said violence entrepreneurship, and then Spencer Cox said the same thing, conflict entrepreneurship.

Scott Galloway 10:34 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 10:34 Um, it creates that kind... I think you are more to the point, violence is actually the point, if you listen to Stephen Miller. The reason... Look, it was a spectacle. It was meant to be a spectacle. It was meant to be a political opportunity for a lot of people. And you know that evidence that, for example, Turning Point USA volunteers staffed voter registration booths at the stadium event. They were selling merch. Uh, it was a culture event. It was a political event, um, and everything else. And look, the fact that Erica Kirk stands out, is one, the difficulty level of doing that is high, right? Because this is a violent death of her husband with whom she had, uh, two children. She, you know, and I thought she managed to do the best she can given the spectacle of the whole thing, which was a lot, right? And it's fine if you wanna do that. The martyr stuff is okay, whatever, you know. The, the overt, the, the, the excessive Christianity was, was something, was something... But they're very Christian, and I'm glad they did it in Arizona, which is where he's from. Um, and again, if people want to mourn and they, they did it, but Donald Trump treated it like a political rally. He wandered around talking not just that he hates people and his opponents, and that's also insulting to Char- It never was about Charlie Kirk, ever, like on the thing. He wasn't talking about Charlie Kirk. He was talking about everything else, but talked about Biden. He talked about like how stupid Biden is, tariffs. He started going on about Tylenol essentially, which is, we can get to, but a bunch of things, and I was like, abs- It's like when he's, when someone said, "How are you feeling about someone who's supposedly close to your family?" He started talking about, this is what got Jimmy Kimmel into trouble, he started talking about the building of the ballroom. Like, it was weird. And so I think very few people there did not take an opportunity to use Charlie Kirk's death as something to their own agenda or advantage. Elon Musk, center one, of course, published a picture of him and Trump together and said, "For Charlie." And all I could think of, for Elon, not for Charlie. It was never for Charlie. And you know, they'll say Charlie wanted us to be together, this and that, but this, this...... poor murdered man is being used as a, a vehicle for all these people. I just, it's, it's, it's really quite a story. And they'll continue to do so, going forward.

Scott Galloway 12:51 Yeah, I've never seen... I was trying to think, I've never seen a service like that. Um, I was trying to think what other famous political figures, or, were murdered. And I don't, I mean typically, it just feels as if our politics have permeated the most sacred spaces. Um, and it's, it's, uh, it's just very, it's just weird. It's just-

Kara Swisher 13:17 Well, if you're gonna put it-

Scott Galloway 13:18 ... it's just strange.

Kara Swisher 13:18 ... in a stadium, it's certainly not a service for the person who died. That's the thing. Although I'm planning on having an entire stadium when you go. I'm gonna do it

Narrator 13:27 Mm.

Kara Swisher 13:28 I'm gonna have celebrities in, stuff like that.

Scott Galloway 13:31 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 13:31 And then I'm gonna try to raise money for myself. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 13:35 Yeah, I wanna be cremated and have my ashes spread across the bar at Zero Bond.

Kara Swisher 13:39 Done.

Scott Galloway 13:40 And I want it to be-

Kara Swisher 13:41 I shall do that for you.

Scott Galloway 13:41 I want it to be male escort night.

Kara Swisher 13:43 Right. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 13:44 Um...

Kara Swisher 13:45 Anyway, they, obviously they're gonna take advantage of this as far as they can do this and it's untoward, but I, I will say, it'll be interesting to see what she does next, 'cause she certainly is an appealing character. Um, you can see like some of the people who want that role going, "Oh." Kari Lake went, "Oh, if only it was me." That kind of thing. Um, but, uh, but they, uh, but she's definitely gonna be an interesting political figure, I think, if she handles it correctly. We'll see. Charlie Kirk said she was more conservative, much more conservative than him. Um, but if she handles herself, she has a political future, that's what I kept thinking when I was watching it. I hate to say that. And now, on to the story breaking just as we tape, Jimmy Kimmel

Kara Swisher 14:28 is expected to be back on the air Tuesday night. Let me read a statement from a Disney spokesperson. "Last Wednesday, we made the decision to suspend production on the show to avoid further inflaming a tense situation at an emotional moment for our country. It is a decision we made because we felt some of the comments were ill-timed and thus insensitive. We have spent the last days having a thoughtful conversations with Jimmy, and after those conversations, we reached a decision to return the show on Tuesday." First thoughts, first thoughts on this?

Scott Galloway 15:00 I'm surprised and this is literally another press release gang-banged by a dozen $1,200 an hour comms consultants.

Kara Swisher 15:10 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 15:10 And Bob said, "Okay, I have yet another chance to be a leader here, and I've decided to lie." Let me get this. They spoke to Jimmy and he said, "I promise I won't do it again." I mean, this has fucking nothing to do with... First off, his comments were not ill-timed. His-

Kara Swisher 15:28 They weren't.

Scott Galloway 15:29 His comment, what did he say? He's in the fourth stage of grief-

Kara Swisher 15:33 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:33 ... grief construction.

Kara Swisher 15:34 It was funny.

Scott Galloway 15:34 He and all of us have said much worse. And then the Republicans-

Kara Swisher 15:39 Yeah, and also, that was a weird response to, "How are you doing about the death of your friend?" It was strange.

Scott Galloway 15:44 Yeah, I'm doing very good. I thought it, I think it's very well. But, anyways, this is, they, they should've been... I made a couple observations. The first is, and the one I immediately go to, is I'm now more emboldened, convinced, that a national economic strike is the way (laughs) to go here. Because what happened here was they started getting, uh, actors probably called and said, "I'm not going to work with Disney." They, they saw-

Kara Swisher 16:12 Yep.

Scott Galloway 16:13 ... thousands of screenshots being sent to them saying, "Okay, I'm canceling Hulu."

Kara Swisher 16:19 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 16:19 This was about money. This has nothing to do with principles.

Kara Swisher 16:22 Yeah, it happened to Target, as you know. Same thing with their over-production.

Scott Galloway 16:26 Yeah, this has nothing to do with Bob Iger talking to Jimmy Kimmel and saying, "Okay, this was, oh no, we fucked up, we miscalibrated, we totally mistook, you know, we took the wrong temperature, we made the wrong decision. People are, are canceling their subscriptions, canceling their trips to Disney, canceling their movie con- they're, they're not going to work with us, it's gonna hurt our share price, so all of a sudden we have found our testicles."

Kara Swisher 16:53 Right.

Scott Galloway 16:53 Your thoughts?

Kara Swisher 16:54 I, I, I agree with you. I think, what a fucking waste of time and stupidity. Like what a dumb decision on the behalf of Bi- Iger to do it in the first place. And now they've got, you know, egg on their face, and it just doesn't... I, I can't wait to see what he says. What are they gonna... He's obviously not giving, you know, as, uh, I think it's Sinclair or Nexstar, I think it was Sinclair that demanded that he give money to the Turning Point, uh, group that, uh, Kirk ran. Uh, that's ridiculous. You don't tell people what to give money to. That's insane. He didn't do anything to, you know. It's not like, Roseanne Barr who said heinous things, heinous and racist things about, um, Valerie Jarrett, you know, and they didn't even make her give money, I don't know, to any group. Um, they fired her, that's for sure. And, to me, deservedly in that case. Um, but, uh, but it just, it's so stupid. Like I sit there, I'm like, "What, what is he gonna do?" I, I, as, you and, you and I both think he should just go off and do things on his own. What does he need this crap for, in a dying industry, in a problematic economic situation? He's gonna get the screws put to him on costs now, because there are some significant issues around costs and audience and everything else. So, I just, I, I'm curious why he returned. I feel like he had the upper hand here, because it's such a bone-headed move by Disney. And it puts a stain on, on Bob Iger. That's it. Just does for the rest of his life. This is what he's gonna be, the payoff about Stephanopoulos and now this.

Scott Galloway 18:24 Yeah, it's, I mean it does, it is actually quite significant because this is... The, the Republicans were claiming, "Oh no, it wasn't president, it wasn't pressure from the administration. It was a private company doing what they're allowed to do, because private companies don't have to honor..."...First Amendment. They can fire people for whatever- pretty much whatever reason they want, unless it's-

Kara Swisher 18:45 Sure can.

Scott Galloway 18:45 ... has to do with discrimination or their sexual orientation or their race or whatever, or you know. But they get, they get to hire and fire at will. They're at-will employees. My guess is he has 160 people working with him and didn't... I mean, the gangster move here would be for him to come back to in a vicious dialogue and say, "And by the way, um, I came back on, I stood up for my principles. I don't wanna work for this company anymore. This is my last show."

Kara Swisher 19:13 Oh.

Scott Galloway 19:13 And it's easy for me to be generous with the livelihoods of the 160 people who work with him and with his money 'cause stars have a habit of even if they make 10 or, 10 or $20 million, spending it all.

Kara Swisher 19:24 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 19:24 And so, you know, I don't know how much he needs the money, but it- it- i- it- he is in, he is sitting on top of a melting ice cube. And it- it- it- Trump's gonna go, Trump's gonna get angry. But this, this represents something bigger and that is, of all the things they've done, tariffs were not a bridge too far. Rounding up people, including citizens, and sending them to effectively what are black sites, that didn't seem to be a bridge too far. This feels like it may be that red line we were all waiting for.

Kara Swisher 19:56 Yeah, not the Epstein files, although I still think they're still alive. I think that's still ?

Scott Galloway 20:01 Yeah, I think that's still playing out. But it's clear, I mean, even Senator Cruz kind of read the tea leaves here and said, "Look, folks, they could come for us."

Kara Swisher 20:10 Right. Right.

Scott Galloway 20:11 And, uh, it feels to me like, um, there's probably... I mean, it'll be very interesting to see Trump's response 'cause th- the administration's playbook was, "Oh, no. This wasn't about us threatening to take-"

Kara Swisher 20:22 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 20:22 "... their FCC license. This was a decision a private company made." Well, now that the decision of a private company is to bring him back, what is-

Kara Swisher 20:31 Yeah, that'll be-

Scott Galloway 20:31 What is their response?

Kara Swisher 20:32 You know, and Brandon Carr, the, the, the single most idiotic, one of many idiotic people in the Trump administration, uh, uh, with this, "We could do this the easy way or the hard way." Okay, Brandon, let's see the hard... Brendan, excuse me. Let's go, Brendan. Um, let's do this the, uh, let's do this the hard way. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do here? And if I were Bob Iger, I'd have every law firm on speed dial and start to really... They should not be allowed to do this. This was a direct and bright line between what Brandon Carr said, 'cause he's such a dope, and what happened here. And then, using the affiliates, which I'm sure there were calls made, right? To, to try to put pressure on Iger. The affiliates can also throw Kimmel off if they want to. Um, they can do whatever they want and put on, you know, reruns of Golden Girls if that's what they think they're gonna make their, make their nut. But let them look like what they are, which is, the guy didn't do anything of any consequence here. Even the worst reading of that line, it was kind of cloddish, that one line about MAGA doing this, but again, it's not what was said. He has, was fully within his rights as a comic to make a joke about that stupid comment President Trump made about construction. If you died and someone said, uh, you know, "How are you feeling, Cara?" And I go, "Oh, my vacation to Hawaii was amazing." (laughs) It's just like, what? Like, it's so strange, and so I just feel like, you know, I think the, the day after for everyone's gonna be really hard, including for Jimmy Kimmel, 'cause now, you know, I don't think all these sh- I think all these shows are on borrowed time in some fashion. But if you don't punch back, the, the, the decisions should be made over time on how to re- either reinvigorate these shows or end them, wind them down in a better way. And so far, nobody's ever looked at how to wind these down or invigorate them in a proper way, it seems to me, including Paramount.

Scott Galloway 22:27 I, I think he should... I mean, he's a thoughtful guy, super talented. I think he should, um, I think he should use this as basically an opportunity to do an extended swan song with his middle finger stuck out. It's just very interesting. One, the two takeaways for me are, I mean, you can look at the semantics of Iger being a coward, and Kimmel, whether he should come back or not. The two most interesting things or observations in my view are, one, this appears to have been a bit, finally, the red line, where both Democrats and Republicans said, "Too much." This just isn't... You know, T- Ted Cruz just said it. He said, and so did Ben Shapiro and Bill Maher, was like, "They're gonna come for us."

Kara Swisher 23:10 Uh, uh, see, I think they're gonna... Let me, let's, let's finish by talking about this, about what's gonna happen next. I think Trump will double the fuck down. So will Brandon Carr, the dickless Brandon Carr, uh, 'cause they gotta look like... If you're a tough guy and then your tough guyness is called into question, you got, these guys wanna be a tough guy. For Iger, I think there's gotta be a departure eventually. You know, either nice, let's do this the easy way or the hard way. I think it probably will be the easy way. As you said, there's ac- uh, you know, as you have said before, activists probably pop up again. Uh, and for Kimmel, he's gotta think about his next chapter. I, if I were him, I'd be planning for next year right now. What about you? Last thoughts?

Scott Galloway 23:49 Well, uh, simple. And again, it's easy to be generous with other people's livelihood. If I were Kimmel, I'd go on what I, I would try and rally my writers and say, "This is our swan song, and we're gonna come out. We're gonna come out swinging, thoughtful, not mean-spirited, but funny." And at the end say, "I, I, I no longer wanna work here. Appreciate everyone's good efforts, I appreciate the audience, and I trust you'll find me somewhere else that respects the First Amendment, great American principles. Peace out."

Kara Swisher 24:19 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 24:19 "Uh, dear Disney, uh, dear President Trump, please go fuck yourself."

Kara Swisher 24:24 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 24:24 "And I'm allowed to say that and you're allowed to say it about me."

Kara Swisher 24:27 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 24:27 "And the term for that is America."

Kara Swisher 24:28 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 24:28 "Good night."

Kara Swisher 24:29 Well, that's gr- oh, I like that. I like that. You could be a comedy writer. What'll Trump do now?

Scott Galloway 24:34 Well, you- you're, you're predicting that Trump is gonna go apoplectic. But it, I mean, it's hypocritical, but that hasn't stopped him before 'cause they're all... Look at everyone on...I was watching Abby Phillips' show. The Republicans are saying, "Oh, no. This wasn't about censorship. This was a private company making its own decisions." So if he comes out swinging and says, "No, I'm putting government pressure on these guys to do the right thing," then that argument falls away. It, it's just really shocking to me that it's not suspected pedophilia, it's not a grift around making $5 billion off of shitcoin and then 600,000 people go on to lose $4 billion. It's not tariffs reducing our prosperity. It's censorship that appears to be the red line. In America specifically, people have canceled their contracts, a lot of commercial backlash, and Republicans have actually spoken up. It's just... I would have never guessed that this was... I, I thought there were red lines everywhere.

Kara Swisher 25:29 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 25:29 This appears to be the red line in Indelible so far.

Kara Swisher 25:31 For a lot of people. And then very briefly, Iger?

Scott Galloway 25:34 Oh my God, he just wants to figure out as elegant a way as possible to declare victory and leave.

Kara Swisher 25:40 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 25:40 He just wants to wait till the... He's Sheryl Sandberg in 2018.

Kara Swisher 25:46 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 25:46 Like, "Oh, fuck, everyone's figured out that I'm writing books about gender equality while ignoring that little, you know, 14-year-old girls are cutting themselves. As I position myself as a, as a, as the next president, I should have left two or three years ago." That is... Bob Iger is the Sheryl Sandberg of 2022 right now.

Kara Swisher 26:06 All right.

Scott Galloway 26:06 He's like, "Why the fuck didn't I ring the bell-"

Kara Swisher 26:10 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:10 "... have parties at that cool restaurant at Disney, continue to go to the Academy Awards, and just sit from the-"

Kara Swisher 26:16 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:16 "... sit back, and from the cheap seats, heckle whoever the new CEO was?"

Kara Swisher 26:20 Yeah. Yep. That is true. That is what he does.

Scott Galloway 26:22 He did his... He decided for some reason to do his third tour in Vietnam.

Kara Swisher 26:26 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:26 And he is getting shot-

Kara Swisher 26:28 He's fragged.

Scott Galloway 26:28 ... every 30 minutes.

Kara Swisher 26:29 His ass is getting fragged. All right.

Scott Galloway 26:30 He went back voluntarily-

Kara Swisher 26:32 I know. Ugh.

Scott Galloway 26:32 ... and it's like, "What the fuck was I thinking?"

Kara Swisher 26:34 What was I thinking? Yeah. You know, remember Sandberg was supposed to be CEO of Disney? Anyway, uh, let's go on a quick break when we c- Welcome back, Jimmy. We're excited to hear your, uh, your monologue. It should be spicy, I hope.

Scott Galloway 26:46 I mean, it's l- it's literally... I don't know about you. It's the first time I'll, I'll tune into Jimmy Kimmel in about seven years.

Kara Swisher 26:52 Right, live. Live. That's (laughs) that's true. Uh, we won't watch everything on media. Okay. Uh, Scott, let's go on a quick-

Scott Galloway 26:57 We'll see it on TikTok.

Kara Swisher 26:58 That's true.

Scott Galloway 26:58 That's where we'll see it.

Kara Swisher 26:58 That's where we'll see it. Let's go on a quick break, and when we come back, the Trump administration sends big tech into a panic over H-1B visas. Support for this show comes from Framer. The early stages of the internet were the Wild West. Kids today will never understand the insane pixel art we had to endure, and that was back when only high-paid professionals and savants knew how to code a website. But today, there's Framer. Framer is a design-first, no-code website builder that lets anyone ship a production-ready site in minutes. It's free to start, so you can browse hundreds of templates or start with a totally blank canvas for maximum autonomy. Framer lets you add animations like text effects, appear effects, parallax scrolling, scroll animations, looping animations, and so much more, all of which can be added in seconds. And built-in AI handles the heavy lifting, like generating starter layouts and translating your entire site into any language. You can also A/B test your designs and set up funnels to see exactly where people click. No coding and no compromise. Ready to build a site that looks hand-coded without hiring a developer? Launch your site for free at Framer.com and use the code PIVOT to get your first month of Pro on the house. That's Framer.com, promo code PIVOT. Framer.com, promo code PIVOT. Rules and restrictions apply. Scott, we're back with more news. Now, to the corporate panic about,

Kara Swisher 28:19 uh, Trump administration's new price, $100,000 price tag, uh, on H, uh,1B visas for skilled foreign workers. The Friday announcement had companies and their lawyers scrambling to get workers in place before the new policy took effect on Sunday. The White House later clarified the charges only apply to new visas, not renewals or current visa holders, and does not affect holder's ability to travel to and from the US. Of course, they rolled it out stupidly. Amazon employs over 14,000 H-1B holders, and Microsoft, Meta, and Apple and Google employ over 4,000. It's a, it's a big deal. Uh, some people were backing it, like, uh, Ne- uh, Netflix, uh, f- founder, co-founder, uh, Reed Hastings. Um, a lot of people have been in ar- up in arms about these things, and the complexity, and who gets them, and everything else. I, I don't mind some reform here. I would agree with Reed on that. Um, what are your thoughts on this, from, from a, from a, uh, employer, employment perspective?

Scott Galloway 29:13 Uh, so this is, this is, um... the, the fact pattern continues, and that is, these people don't understand basic economics, um, and how markets work. And that is, one of the core advantages of America is that we have the greatest inflows, historic, unprecedented inflows of capital. But there are two different forms of capital. One is actual financial capital. For the last 15 years, everyone has been buying US stocks. We have the cheapest financing. There are S- $5 million in venture capital available for every startup in the United States. There's $1 million in venture capital financing for every startup in Europe. That means our startups have more fuel in the tank, can take bigger risks, can attract better people. Anyways, you get cars, washing machines. You know, e- everything is cheaper because of the massive inflow of financial capital in terms of our ability to build things, in terms of our ability to finance and afford things. Also something that people don't pay as much attention to is we have unprecedented access to global human capital from the four corners of the earth, and that is the best and brightest from, from Sri Lanka to, to South Africa, to Seoul, all have one thing in common, and that is their parents think, "If I'm really successful, the ultimate signal or validation of my success is that I can send my kid to an elite American university."... it costs half a million dollars, it's 90 points of margin. I mean, just to riff a bit, for a second on how stupid we're being there, discouraging people from applying to global schools. There were a bunch of universities, including I think Duke, that sent a message out to their foreign students on certain visas, "Don't leave the U.S. this summer 'cause you might not be able to get back in." We, we ch- bring in these kids who tend to be the richest, most talented people in the world, and a lot of them... and then we charge them a half a million dollars over four years in rent, Chipotle, tuition, w- at 90 points of gross margin. This is an unbelievable business. And then, a lot of them fall in love, decide to go to the, go work for Salesforce, stay here, go home, feel better about America, or go on to be the CEOs of fucking MasterCard, Adobe, and Microsoft. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 31:37 Mm-hmm. That's right.

Scott Galloway 31:38 And those are just the people from India. So what are we doing here? By charging $100,000, we've opted for some brain dead short-term thinking that we can make money, but-

Kara Swisher 31:47 Well, he likes to do that with the tariffs, the same thing.

Scott Galloway 31:50 But all you're gonna do is discourage... Y- you're gonna say, "Okay." There's two types of people, and I'm being reductive here, at Stern. The inter- I say this on the first day of class, "Find the international students and get to know them. One, they're the funnest people to party with, and two, they're the richest people in the world. 'Cause the reason they're here is 'cause their dad owns the license to PNG in Honduras. Get to know them, 'cause the next time you go there, you're gonna have the best time 'cause their father owns the TV station there." And it's a little bit embarrassing, but it's true. And then you have the PhD students. Those people we have to pay, they are literally the brightest young human capital in the world. They are just extraordinary. And we get them from the four corners of the planet. So what you're saying is, "I just want the rich kids, not necessarily the most talented." In addition, Kara, my firms were, were, were built by two things, overachieving young women and also people who wanted to stay here and I was willing to sponsor them. So the key, my key programmer at Red Envelope, Jawad Mohammed, an immigrant from Pakistan, the key consultant at L2, a Canadian woman named Claude DeJokas, if, if it'd cost $100,000 or cost me $100,000 to get them to stay, I would have said, "I love you, but I can't afford this." So who can afford it? The same people.

Kara Swisher 33:11 Same people.

Scott Galloway 33:11 Meta, Alphabet. So all this is, is one, a reduction in an incredible resource that we attract from the four corners of the earth in terms of human capital, and two, yet another transfer of capital and power-

Kara Swisher 33:26 To the big guys. To the big-

Scott Galloway 33:26 ... from the 99.9% of firms that can't afford to pay (laughs) $100,000 for somebody-

Kara Swisher 33:31 And they won't have the

Narrator 33:32 in.

Scott Galloway 33:32 ... to the folks who can.

Kara Swisher 33:34 Yeah, so-

Scott Galloway 33:34 Mark Zuckerberg is licking his lips because-

Kara Swisher 33:36 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 33:36 ... all the shitty little startups nipping at his heels that might disrupt him-

Kara Swisher 33:40 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 33:40 ... now will no longer have access to the most talented people abroad.

Kara Swisher 33:44 Right. So one of the things, let me read you Reed Hasting's one. Um, "I've worked on HB-1 politi- H-1B politics for 30 years. Trump's $100,000 per year tax is a great solution. It will mean H-1B is used for very high value jobs, which will mean the lotter- no lottery needed, and more certainty for these jobs." Ho- react to that.

Scott Galloway 34:04 Well, uh, well, first off, I think Reed is fantastic. And, um, when he said that, it immediately gave me pause because any time Reed says something, I-

Kara Swisher 34:12 Right.

Scott Galloway 34:13 ... that, that is not corr- or not correct, that doesn't align with my values, I stop and think, "Well, maybe this guy has a point because I have a lot of respect for what he's saying." I think it works for Netflix. I think they can afford to bring in these folks. But if you're some... I, I just don't... It shouldn't be based on, in my view, the greatest thing about... (sighs) I mean, we've just benefited enormously from people who are, one, willing to take risks. There's something to the guy who's willing to crawl over fences and risk being shot at who makes for a really good services worker. (laughs) You know, there, there, that DNA of, of risk-taking w- that when people in the UK ask me to summarize the difference between our success and theirs, and there's just no doubt about it, our success, we've just blown away Europe the last 34 years.

Kara Swisher 34:58 Yes, in immigration.

Scott Galloway 34:58 I say, "It all comes down to one thing." And I look at the audience of UK citizens or European citizens and I said, "My parents, at the ages of 19 and 21, got on a steamship with no money to come to the U.S." And I said, "You're the ones that stayed." And then, in the U.S., it's not, it's even regional within the U.S. Think about where all the most valuable companies have been made. It's people who inherited the DNA of their forefathers, who were willing to take a risk, go over the Rockies and eat their cousins to find a better life. So the riskier you get, the more risk-aggressive you get, that DNA, plus the ability to draw on this grand human capital results in the most profitable, most valuable companies in history that pays for our navy-

Kara Swisher 35:41 Yeah, so-

Scott Galloway 35:41 ... and for food stamps.

Kara Swisher 35:42 A- a- let me just say, I suspect at that dinner, they said to do this and he did it. And he lo- he can make a like, "Look, we've raised over 10 million."

Scott Galloway 35:50 Who said to do it?

Kara Swisher 35:50 I, I, I bet at that tech dinner, when they were there, all the ones who will benefit from that suggested this to Trump, right? It just ca-

Scott Galloway 35:57 Right.

Kara Swisher 35:57 It didn't not come out of nowhere. I just, it, it helps that-

Scott Galloway 36:00 Ah, it's interesting.

Kara Swisher 36:01 It, it ha-

Scott Galloway 36:01 'Cause they can afford it.

Kara Swisher 36:02 They can afford it, and they probably mentioned it to him and said, "Oh, you'll be able to say you raised this much money. It could be e- from us, and oh, you took money from us."

Scott Galloway 36:10 Ah, it's interesting. I hadn't thought of that.

Kara Swisher 36:10 It's, I just feel like that's what happened there. That this just came pretty much out of nowhere, and they just sug- all of them suggested it, and there was not a startup among them in that group. Anyway, uh, we need to move on, but um, but it, it, the fix is in for the big guys. And I, I see, I see Reed's point. It's a bit, little bit un- unorganized and it sort of allows people to think, you know, to cr- you know, the ri- especially conservatives, to say, "Oh, we're letting in too many immigrants." But these high value immigrants are, have made this country. There's just no two ways about it. But it shouldn't advantage only the big companies, which it will. Um, lastly, speaking of, one of the things, other thing is rule of law, is something you've talked about a lot, Scott. Trump has been on, uh, for business, uh, how good it is for business. He's

Kara Swisher 36:55 been on Truth Social, uh, publicly complaining to Attorney General Pam Bondi. The President posted in a message to Bondi that looked like a DM that the lack of criminal charges against his enemies was, quote, "Killing our reputation and credibility." Boy, he's a lot smarter when he's DMing. Uh, Trump's, I mean-... heinous, but smart. Trump specifically called out Senator Adam Schiff, former FBI director James Comey and New York Attorney General Letitia James. In the post, he also seemed to recommend his, uh, uh, former personal lawyer, Lindsay Halligan, to take the probes, writing to Bondi, "Lindsay Halligan is a really good lawyer and likes you a lot." That's who's apparently gonna be doing this now. Um, this is, uh, you know, Trump has been way too easy on his enemies so far. I mean, this is, um, baloney charges. The, the other guy left 'cause he couldn't charge Letitia James. He just didn't have evidence. The same thing with Lisa Cook. It's often a Black woman, which is interesting. Um, this is anti-rule of law. Like, and he's, and of course, he... And bad at doing DMs versus public posts, but that's another issue all together.

Scott Galloway 37:56 Yeah. Uh, look, I, I largely agree with you. The only thing, I think it's unfair to say he's targeting Black women. The, the people... And also, I don't... I would probably push back on the fact that he's just started, that he's been easy on his enemies so far. He removed the security detail of the general-

Kara Swisher 38:10 No, I'm joking. That was a joke, my friend.

Scott Galloway 38:11 Oh, excuse me. Okay, so-

Kara Swisher 38:12 No, he's been terrible to his enemies.

Scott Galloway 38:14 But, you know-

Kara Swisher 38:15 Terrible.

Scott Galloway 38:15 ... he's removing the security detail on the generals who ordered the strike against or the, the head of Iranian security. You gotta think that guy is very nervous right now.

Kara Swisher 38:22 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 38:22 He raided or-

Kara Swisher 38:24 Kamala Harris.

Scott Galloway 38:24 ... ordered the raid of an FBI that has yet to really come out with why, what justified that raid of former, you know, head of security advisor, uh, John Bolton. So, he's very much about going after, weaponizing government to go after his political enemies. This is-

Kara Swisher 38:39 And help his friends. Let's note Tom Homan who seemed to have gotten, uh, they seem to have video of him accepting a bribe.

Scott Galloway 38:43 Can you believe this shit?

Kara Swisher 38:45 Ugh, it's just like-

Scott Galloway 38:46 Tom Homan-

Kara Swisher 38:46 This is the head of Homeland Security. Let me just say, allegedly took a bribe. Allegedly, they have video wat- doing him doing in a bag. A nicer bag, I guess, but it was cash for the contract.

Scott Galloway 38:57 But it was the FBI. It's, this is-

Kara Swisher 39:00 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 39:00 Uh, this is the thing that's so disappointing. I'm, I'm disappointed that they're unethical and they're essentially engaging in crime after they've been entrusted with, you know, the most important thing in the world, and that is protecting our borders and protecting the commonwealth of the United States, which has given them so much. But they're not only criminals, they're just so fucking cheap criminals. He, he was willing to potentially go to jail, deny his oath of the Constitution, let down all the people at ICE. I imagine there's some very good people there who put themselves in harm's way. Think they're, thinking they're doing the right thing, for fucking $50,000?

Kara Swisher 39:34 I know. He's a cheap, he's a cheap-

Scott Galloway 39:36 I mean, it's like-

Kara Swisher 39:37 ... corrupt person.

Scott Galloway 39:37 It's like, boss, do, do a reasonable job-

Kara Swisher 39:40 I know.

Scott Galloway 39:40 ... as the head of ICE. You're gonna get invited to be on five corporate vo- boards at a quarter of a million dollars a year plus. I don't think a corporate board is gonna want anything to do with Tom Homan though.

Kara Swisher 39:50 With him. They're not gonna want anything to do with him, period.

Scott Galloway 39:52 So, they're not only, they're not only criminal, they're stupid-

Kara Swisher 39:55 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 39:55 ... if these allegations are true. And the, the strangest thing about this is this is like a Watergate-level scandal almost (laughs) .

Kara Swisher 40:02 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 40:03 No one cares. It's, it... Based on-

Kara Swisher 40:05 No.

Scott Galloway 40:05 ... everything that's going on-

Kara Swisher 40:07 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 40:07 ... it's like, "Oh, whatever."

Kara Swisher 40:08 What is this idea of rule of law for business? Like, business needs rule of law, and this loo- we look like a ridiculous like banana republic. That's-

Scott Galloway 40:17 We look like an autocracy.

Kara Swisher 40:19 We, we do though. We-

Scott Galloway 40:19 Give, give billions. Carve up huge companies and give it to your Republican donors. And when your heads of agencies are not only inept or saying incorrect things, Kash Patel, or Director Patel, um, Secretary-

Kara Swisher 40:37 Director Patel.

Scott Galloway 40:37 ... Kennedy, now it's like they've decided criminality is okay?

Kara Swisher 40:42 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 40:42 He should immediately be put on leave.

Kara Swisher 40:44 And to, to investigate. They said that-

Scott Galloway 40:46 Until they investigate and find out what's going on here.

Kara Swisher 40:49 I don't know. If they have a video of him taking a bag of cash, that's like, wasn't even an invitation or anything.

Scott Galloway 40:53 I, I wonder though, is that enough? Or when do-

Kara Swisher 40:55 (laughs) Yeah. Well, he didn't know if it was a bag.

Scott Galloway 40:57 It's... Where is the red line here?

Kara Swisher 40:59 He thought it was lunch. 'Cause-

Scott Galloway 41:00 I keep thinking I'm seeing red lines and then they, they-

Kara Swisher 41:02 Uh-

Scott Galloway 41:02 ... tend to just get moved away. I mean-

Kara Swisher 41:04 The only thing I kept thinking is that maybe it was a bottle of liquor that he thought he was taking. Anyway, uh, allegedly. Uh, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, speaking of handing out the, the, the, the, the juicy bits to his friends. When we come back, the latest on the TikTok deal.

Scott Galloway 41:20 Support for the show comes from Hims. There's a lot of opinions out there about how to take care of yourself. Sometimes it can be way too complex and confusing. Do this, take that, don't take this. Other times, it can be overly simplified, like a one-size-fits-all treatment with present dosages and zero flexibility. It's time to reimagine healthcare with the flexibility you want and answers tailored to your specific needs. The way they do it? At Hims and Hers. Hims and Hers is reimagining healthcare with you in mind. They offer access to personalized care for weight loss, hair loss, sexual health and mental health, because your goals, your biology and your lifestyle are anything but average. No membership fees, no surprise fees, just transparent pricing and real care that you can access from anywhere. Feel like your best self thanks to quality, convenient care through Hims and Hers. Start your free online visit today at hims.com/pivot. That's H-I-M-S .com/pivot to find your personalized treatment options. Not available everywhere. Prescription products require provider consultation. See website for full details, important safety information and restrictions.

Kara Swisher 42:28 Scott, we're back. We're getting

Kara Swisher 42:30 more details about how Donald Trump's TikTok deal is shaking out. Oracle founder, Larry Ellison, Rupert Murdoch apparently. Michael Dell will likely be included in the group taking over the American branch of the app. You can't tell. Trump lets out all kinds of weird little facts, some of which may be true, some of which not. Oracle would reportedly run and secure TikTok's algorithm in the US. Under proposed terms of the deal, ByteDance would lease a copy of the algorithm to this new group, which is problematic, and Oracle would retrain it, okay. Uh, uh, you know, Andreessen's in here. All his pals, all the pals, and I think they're probably doing it to calm Mur- Murdoch down 'cause they were, 'cause Trump was also suing Murdoch. Um, lot of old, old White guys running TikTok. Sounds young and fresh. Uh, I don't know. I just feel like this might be the beginning of the end for TikTok, but maybe not. I don't know. Scott, what do you think?

Scott Galloway 43:19 What I don't get is, I don't, I don't think it's a smart move, and that is, for these guys, because one, I think, I don't think the deal's gonna go through. I think she is just toying with, um, with, uh, Trump, saying, "Delay, delay, get the bankers involved, have a lot of concerns, redo the deal, undo the deal, redo it, undo it." And then Congress, new Congress comes in and, and starts, starts calling all these people in front of him and saying, "Marc Andreessen, do you think it's fair that you have first, rights of first refusal versus your competitors? Please explain to me the capitalism that's made you rich and how that..." And I, I, if I were these guys, I mean basically, they're all going on a mental list of people. Governments, the White House and Congress always pivots back and forth, that's one of the healthier things about our democracy. Typically, what everybody wants, the only thing you know they want, is they usually want change. (laughs) They usually want, "Okay, let's try something different," and they go, they swing to the other side. What happens when you're the VC firm that engaged in this type of, uh, you know, um, oligarchy, when you're the wealthiest man in the world who, you know, was the Republican donor? Don't you, aren't they inclined to say, "You know, we've thought about it, and there's some regulations we're passing that, oh, what do you know, they're especially punitive on AI da- and database firms and on VC..." I, I, these guys are just setting themselves up...

Kara Swisher 44:48 They are.

Scott Galloway 44:49 ... for-

Kara Swisher 44:50 Or are they?

Scott Galloway 44:50 Let me put it this way, do they think that, do they think re- that political retribution that impacts private sector individuals is solely limited to Republicans? I think their bet is, "The Republicans are kind of craven oligarchs, but the Democrats won't do that to us. The Democrats-"

Kara Swisher 45:08 They, they think-

Scott Galloway 45:08 "... they'll play by the rules, those fucking wimps."

Kara Swisher 45:10 I think they think that, I think they think they'll win a, they, they'll do everything they can to stop the Democrats from getting back in power, and then they will-

Scott Galloway 45:16 Good luck.

Kara Swisher 45:18 I just don't think the Democrats will come back.

Scott Galloway 45:18 I mean, it may not be 26 or 28, but it'll happen eventually, guys.

Kara Swisher 45:21 Yes.

Scott Galloway 45:21 It always does.

Kara Swisher 45:22 Yeah, I know, but I just feel like they're not gonna... Look, uh, let's talk about the product of TikTok. All it does is make people be like, "Do I really need this TikTok?" I, I have to tell you, I am really enjoying Instagram and Threads. I, like, whether they get big or not, they're just, like, pleasant. Like, in terms of, I'm talking about I watch food being made. I'm not talking about political discussions. I had an interesting guy who I like, Chris Fraylick, write me saying, "You've got to get back on, uh," I, I'm gonna read it 'cause it was really interesting. He texted me, um, uh, this week, uh, ask, telling me I should get back on, you and I should get back on Twitter. That's what he was saying. Um, let me just read it 'cause it's, I like Chris a lot. Um, he goes, um, "You're more famous than ever but changing less minds. Your latest pivot was fantastic, a banger. It went out to your only your faithful. Your top posts on Twitter are from 2023. At the very least, you should put out a copy of recent great episodes on X and tag them, all the toady hypocrites, and call them out. Uh, Scott would call it violence, uh, would call the violence on full capitalism or similar." "Do it," said Chris. And I was like, "We're doing great everywhere we were." Our, our, our audience is growing, our revenues are growing, uh, our demo is diverse. I went on and I said, "Twitter is a waste of time and always has been. It gets us exactly zero new listeners. Both Scott and I do not post there anymore because it is a Nazi porn bar and makes us feel badly. So all due respect and thanks for the suggestion, but hard pass." Um, uh, what do you think about this? I find it, them useless over there and spending my time arguing with people who hate me. I don't know. What do you think?

Scott Galloway 46:53 Well, I, I take mental health really seriously 'cause I have fragile mental health. I used to like to tell people that I was mentally really strong. What I figured out was that I'm m- m- mentally strong to everyone around me, I'm good in a crisis, I'm helpful to other people, but, you know, I'm very hard on myself and I get depressed a lot and angry a lot. And I figured out, okay, what makes me feel better and also what triggers it? And the things that make me feel better are sweating, eating clean, abstinence from alcohol and THC for a while, being around family, and affection. Like, touch with my dogs, touch with my kids. That, that sounded weird. Anyways, but those things help reverse my downward spiral.

Kara Swisher 47:31 Right.

Scott Galloway 47:31 Also, one of the biggest mental health hacks I have registered in the last five years was getting off Twitter.

Kara Swisher 47:39 Yep.

Scott Galloway 47:40 Uh, uh, there, the, the, the level of vitriol, the algorithms, uh, highlighting and encouraging people to say incredibly vile, unfair things about not only you, but about the other people commenting, and this great weirdness where you have to go back and see, you know, okay, there's a bunch of people arguing over whether I should be called Professor Genocide.

Kara Swisher 48:06 Right.

Scott Galloway 48:07 And then I don't, you don't get that shit on the other platforms. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 48:10 No, you don't. They don't. It's-

Scott Galloway 48:11 Or people, or people making-

Kara Swisher 48:13 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 48:13 ... white supremacist comments-

Kara Swisher 48:15 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 48:15 ... and, and also, and also, you said something that really impacted me. You said, "I'm not gonna paint that guy's fucking fence." And by that guy-

Kara Swisher 48:23 I'm, I also, it, away from all that, it doesn't make us money. It never did.

Scott Galloway 48:27 Well, that's, that's-

Kara Swisher 48:27 It n- it never did. This is what I said to him.

Scott Galloway 48:28 100%.

Kara Swisher 48:28 I said, "Look at the resu- I look, I look at the results, uh, uh, and Threads, LinkedIn, YouTube, Instagram, BlueSky, and even Reddit work well to bring us audience, which makes us money. Sparring with a toady like Brendan Carr is a waste of time and money for me, and why should I do it?" I don't, um, uh, I, I don't think it helps me in any way and I'm just not gonna do it 'cause I don't, life is too short. And I wro- I ended up saying, "Life is too short to give a steroid-filled imbecile like so many on that platform another minute of my time. I have four kids I would rather focus on, and also Scott." That's what I wrote.

Scott Galloway 49:02 Ugh, your fifth child.

Kara Swisher 49:04 My fifth child.

Scott Galloway 49:05 Um, no but there's, (laughs) the, the other thing you realize, having gotten off it, I, and I can guarantee anyone who gets off it, you're gonna realize, as I did within about 30 or 60 days, just how small it is.

Kara Swisher 49:18 That's correct.

Scott Galloway 49:18 It's a bunch of people...... who get, feel like they register some sort of importance from a tweet that gets a lot of likes all yelling back at each other.

Kara Swisher 49:27 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 49:27 I don't miss out on news.

Kara Swisher 49:29 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 49:29 I don't miss out on any relationships.

Kara Swisher 49:31 Audience.

Scott Galloway 49:31 I don't think I've missed out on any opportunities, and by the way, I am someone who has between, uh, depending on how you account for it, somewhere between three and eight people working on social media for me, between video, YouTube-

Kara Swisher 49:46 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 49:46 ... managing Linx, uh, managing LinkedIn, Threads, Instagram. I take social media very seriously.

Kara Swisher 49:51 So do I.

Scott Galloway 49:51 I am on it a lot more than I'd like to be 'cause I realized if I wanna build business and economic security for me and my team, it's all about social media now.

Kara Swisher 49:58 I like your posts. I think they're very sweet. Hmm.

Scott Galloway 50:01 Uh, but the, uh, I have not seen any evidence that I lose-

Kara Swisher 50:05 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 50:05 ... intellectual capital or financial capital by not being-

Kara Swisher 50:08 Me neither.

Scott Galloway 50:08 ... as you described it, the Nazi porn bar.

Kara Swisher 50:10 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 50:10 I just haven't registered any-

Kara Swisher 50:11 We haven't. Sorry, Chris.

Scott Galloway 50:12 ... any decline in anything.

Kara Swisher 50:13 TikTok will see.

Scott Galloway 50:14 Occasionally, I get a text. Occasionally, I get a text from someone saying-

Kara Swisher 50:17 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 50:17 ... "Oh, this was interesting," and it's a link to X and I can't open it.

Kara Swisher 50:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 50:20 That's the biggest downside.

Kara Swisher 50:21 Yeah, yeah. Well, that's why I s- I never send those to you anymore. Anyway, uh, Chris, you're wrong. Sorry. We're gonna tell you that. All right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Support for this show comes from Brex. These days, every business leader is under pressure to save money, but you can't crush the competition just by cutting costs. To win, you need to spend smarter and move faster. You need Brex. Brex is the intelligent finance platform that breaks the trade-off between control and speed with smart corporate cards, high yielding banking, and AI powered expense management. Join the 30,000 companies that spend smarter and move faster with Brex. Learn more at brex.com/grow. Okay,

Kara Swisher 51:04 Scott, let's do some wins and fails. Shall I go first?

Scott Galloway 51:07 You go first.

Kara Swisher 51:08 I have to say K-pop Demon Hunters. I know it's been a trend already, but it is so good, and what's interesting is it was put together by, uh, Korean-Americans and Korean-Canadians. Now it's really popular in Korea too. Um, just an amazing group of people who are, you know, all these people sort of trained to be, um... Just the group behind it is really interesting. What an interesting idea. Um, they took advantage of the K-pop popularity. It's a, it's really well done. The animation, I really like. The music is so infectious and terrific. Um, we, we, I, uh, I have t- I under now, having watched it, um, uh, twice now, uh, it's, it's really, really good. It's really (laughs) just really good. Well done, uh, Netflix. Uh, my fail is Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s continuing attacks on children. Um, I, they're now going after Tylenol. Listen, I'm no, uh, you wanna read a book, No More Tears, uh, uh, by Gar- I think it's Gardner Harris, I believe, uh, is some book. Like, it really is something, um, w- all the problems these, these drug companies have brought upon us, all the, all the stuff they've done that's been awful, it's called No More Tears. It's really shocking, uh, the stuff they pulled, but R.F. Kennedy setting, setting Tylenol to autism, that recent meeting they had, it is so not science based, and all these studies do not show this. I think we should find out the causes of autism. I, I think they're quite, probably quite complex, um, but this is no way to do this. This kind of nonsensical non-science approach by non-science people is incredibly dangerous. So, um, again, not a fan of big drug (laughs) companies, but Jesus Christ, this is, th- they're killing children. They're killing children is what they're doing. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 52:54 Um, yeah. I like your, "I gotta w- I gotta watch that K-pop film." My win is that people essentially deciding to take up economic arms against Disney. I do think generally in the past some boycotts work, most do not. But there's even, if you look historically, like there was an economic strike in Russia that h- had huge impact, um, in the earlier part of the 20th century. I mean, there have been instances all over the world where economic strikes have really been effective, and I do think that people canceling Disney+, Hulu, ESPN, be clear they notice, and it'll come up in the next earnings call because to be clear that all of these firms need to stop using the term stakeholders. They use the term stakeholders as a means of trying to deflect scrutiny and pretend they were, you know, they were virtuous and virtue signaled that they cared more about their share price. 97, 98% of a senior management's compensation will come from options on stock. So, all they care about is shareholder value. Now some people might argue that's fine, and I think that's fine, but stop the stakeholder thing, and if you wanna hurt these companies or you wanna send a message, um, and I, you know, look, this is hard now, this is easy to recommend now that I no longer have kids, but if you're planning to go to Disney in the ve- near future, maybe go to Universal, maybe go somewhere else. Uh, and also th- the easiest thing to do right away is cancel the host of Disney, Disney apps. And it looks as if we're seeing a lot of that. So that's my win is I'm increasingly believing that people need to start flexing their spending and, uh, economic strike muscles, so my win is people take-

Kara Swisher 54:37 What do you mean you no longer have kids? (laughs) You have k- you don't have kids that use Disney.

Scott Galloway 54:42 No, I have, yeah, I no longer, I, uh-

Kara Swisher 54:44 Well, some of them might be Disneyland.

Scott Galloway 54:45 I used to do 364 days a year of, of fairly mediocre parenting, and that where I would make up for it is I would agree to take the kids for one or two days and all of their friends to the seventh circle of hell to Disney.

Kara Swisher 54:57 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 54:57 And so I used to take my kids to Disney every year. Now they're out of that. Then they go to Universal when they're and they're, you know, they hit 13, 14. Now we're hopefully out of that stage. I can just take them to Drake or to The Weeknd-

Kara Swisher 55:08 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 55:08 ... or to Premier League games. My-

Kara Swisher 55:09 Yeah, my kids are watching not, my little kids are watching Disney all the time. The older ones are too, but-

Scott Galloway 55:13 Well, you're about to go through it again.

Kara Swisher 55:15 I'm not going to Disneyland.

Scott Galloway 55:16 All right.

Kara Swisher 55:17 I'm, I'll go to Universal.

Scott Galloway 55:18 (laughs) You're like that, you're the opposite of that commercial. "What are you doing?" "I'm not going to Disneyland." (laughs)

Kara Swisher 55:21 Well, I never liked it. One time, I went though-

Scott Galloway 55:24 Well, no one likes, no adult likes it unless you're weird.

Kara Swisher 55:26 Uh, no, I really didn't like it. It was a very, f- you know, um, I, I call it a, when I, and then during an interview with Iger one time, I called it the unhappiest place on Earth. Um, but anyway, so I wasn't ever a fan. I'm not, I'm definitely not going now. But go ahead.

Scott Galloway 55:37 And then, uh, you got me thinking actually, with this, uh, this conversation you're having this afternoon with the family whose, whose, um, son committed suicide after establishing, what, this parasocial or synthetic relationship. You know, we've been studying... You've been in tech for longer than me, or covering it. I've been in technology a long time, and in 2017, and this is how we met, when I wrote the book, The Four, back then, ev- the only discussion around The Four was who was gonna be president, Jeff Bezos or Sheryl Sandberg. And I, basically my book was, uh, "There is a problem here." (laughs) These companies represent real risks to society and to income inequality and concentration of power. And I think we're gonna look back on this and think, "Why didn't we think about this earlier, sooner?" And typically, it takes 20 years. It took 20 years of overdoses and people dying from opiates. It took kind of 20 years before we started the education around, "Okay, smoking is bad for you." It typically takes 20... It's starting to happen with phones, kind of smartphones 20 years later, people are starting to ban phones in schools. I'm gonna skip to the part where it should take 20 months, not 20 years around one specific type of technology that, uh, as someone who thinks they have a decent understanding of teenagers and of technology, the scariest thing on the horizon isn't AI weapons or AI-powered drones. It's these character AIs, especially character AIs who establish a relationship with young people whose w- brains are being wired and have huge needs for friendship, and are trying to figure this out, uh, relationships. And basically, character AI is intimacy without the friction. No awkward pauses, no vulnerability, no rejection. And that is literally, uh, opium to a teenager.

Kara Swisher 57:36 Yep.

Scott Galloway 57:37 But it's-

Kara Swisher 57:37 It's opium to adults too. I mean, men-

Scott Galloway 57:39 But especially to kids.

Kara Swisher 57:41 ... and teenagers, 100%.

Scott Galloway 57:41 It's basically... It's also, it's emotional malnutrition just as ultra-processed foods, you know, they hack our taste buds but they leave us obese and undernourished. S- synthetic relationships similarly risk leaving young people overstimulated-

Kara Swisher 57:57 Very good comparison.

Scott Galloway 57:57 ... yet starved for real human connection, and they, they learn to expect relationships to be endlessly responsive, ego-stroking-

Kara Swisher 58:05 Frictionless.

Scott Galloway 58:06 ... and, and, and safe. And real people with their quirks and difficulties and contradictions become less appealing. And so really what this is, character AI is weaponized affection in that as these firms are... They're not in the business of fostering healthy development. They're in the business of maximizing engagement, and that means the most successful among these character AIs will be the most addictive, the ones that, that s- that sexualize, intensify emotional dependence, and keep kids coming back. And in some... When the product is affection, the business model here is exploitation. And we've seen this movie before with Instagram and teen girls' self-esteem. Character AI is the sequel, and it's even scary, scarier, Kara, 'cause it pretends to care.

Kara Swisher 58:54 Yep.

Scott Galloway 58:55 It pretends that it's your friend, and it... And I'm not... I wanna be clear. I'm not accusing Sam Altman or anyone else of, of malice by commission. They don't want kids hurting themselves. I'm accusing them of malice by omission. And what's the solution here? I have, in my view, never seen a product more similar to alcohol, the military, porn, that should be age-gated.

Kara Swisher 59:22 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 59:22 No person under the age of 18 has the brain, in my view, or the maturity to resist the temptation of an intimate, friction-relate, frictionless relationship with a synthetic AI that'll make them feel better and slowly but surely-

Kara Swisher 59:38 Yep.

Scott Galloway 59:38 ... try to remove them and sequester them from the difficulty and the friction and the reward eh, of real life. This shit needs to be shut down for people under the age of 18. It's not about-

Kara Swisher 59:52 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 59:52 ... hearts and prayers. We need more safety standards. We're gonna put in parental controls that no parent can figure out how to use. We need to age-gate social media, but especially-

Kara Swisher 1:00:05 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:00:05 ... character AI. Two-thirds of teenagers are now in some sort of parasocial relationship with a character AI. That is a fucking disaster.

Kara Swisher 1:00:16 Yeah. And also, eh, also OpenAI, given it's the biggest, it's all of them. I mean, I think what, w- with this family, with the, with the ChatGPT one is alleging is design defects in a, in that these, these sort of frictionless, uh, calorie-free relationships that make n- can easily manipulate kids. But I'll tell you, it is effect... I interviewed Cher- Terkel from my secret CNN project, who is a very famous, um, person around these r- talked about artificial relationships from, for decades now and the dangers of them. It's affecting... She goes, "It used to be sort of a side person that I knew that was doing this. Now, it's a lot more people, and it's affecting marriages where people go and get advice on marriages and partnerships and everything else." She said, "It's really infecting not just young people, but lots and lots of people who are using it for relationships or to solve relationships, and then real world relationships are too hard, um, and people don't-"

Scott Galloway 1:01:09 That's right.

Kara Swisher 1:01:09 "... like them," uh, uh, you know, which is what I like about relation- real world relationships 'cause they're too hard. They're, they are hard. But that's where all the beauty comes in, Scott. That's how I feel about you. Anyway, great one. We wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot, and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott, read us out.

Scott Galloway 1:01:38 Today's show was produced by Lara Neiman, Sonia Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kate Gallagher. Ernie DeTot engineered this episode. Jim Mackel edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Miss Uvery, and Dan Shalon, Nishant Krual as Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, I will see you later in the week.