PivotMark Cuban on Running for President as a Republican: "It Would Be SO Much Fun" | Pivot
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
70 min read · 14,065 words- 0:00 – 0:58
Intro
- MCMark Cuban
For every single company in this country, if you want to benefit from AI and have it pay for itself, all you have to do is this one thing.
- KSKara Swisher
[upbeat music] Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media podcast network. I'm Kara Swisher, and once again, it is... [upbeat music] Scott Free August. I so never get tired of that. And while Scott continues his August adventures, who the fuck knows where he is, I brought on yet another guest host to make him jealous. This is my goal. It is Mark Cuban, entrepreneur and co-founder of Cost Plus Drugs. He's here. Good to see you, Mark.
- MCMark Cuban
Always good to be seen by you, Kara. It's always a pleasure.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Thank you. Um, we've had a lot to get to today. You c- you t- I texted you and said, "What do you wanna talk about?" You said, "Healthcare, healthcare, healthcare." So we are going to focus on healthcare, but there's a few other things. But first, uh, let's talk healthcare. Prescription drug prices
- 0:58 – 8:30
Why RX Prices Are Falling
- KSKara Swisher
had their biggest year-over-year drop in more than 60 years. President Trump is taking a victory lap for that, while his Trump RX site, which is your company, Cost Plus Drugs, is partnering with, uh, may be a factor. But experts say a Biden era policy requiring Medicare to negotiate drug prices is more likely driving costs down. Uh, uh, uh, you, you got a lot of criticism when this partnership was first announced. Not from me. I thought it was actually smart. Um, talk about it a little bit. Uh, talk about-
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, it's really simple. They refer traffic.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- MCMark Cuban
You know? It, it's just, you know, a portal that people can go to look up prices for 600 drugs. And if they-
- KSKara Swisher
Like ObamaCare, for example. Yeah
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, not... Well, a little bit different, but-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, actually you can get there
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, I mean, you can... You go to trumprx.com, and you put in the name of the medication, and i- if they have it, it comes up, and if we're the cheapest, it refers you to us. We've seen our volumes increase, our sales increase, and the good news about that is Republicans want cheaper drugs, independents want cheaper drugs, Democrats. So it, it's, it's a win, and we've seen our volumes go up and, you know, when our volumes go up, our costs typically go down. And because we're cost plus 15%, we've passed on those savings. So we've literally dropped the price since Trump RX launched. I think we've dropped the price for over 200 medications, so you know, there's no downside.
- KSKara Swisher
There's no down- So talk about both of them, this policy from Biden and also what Trump is doing, um, requiring Medicare to negotiate drug prices at the same time.
- MCMark Cuban
So a couple different things. So, um, with the IRA where you're negotiating, um, for 10 different medications, that's a bonus because along with that, it also put a cap on, um, on the amount of out-of-pocket that comes with Medicare, um, to partly twen- to $2,100. And that in turn increased premiums, right? Because the insurance companies had to compensate for the cap that was made available to the patients, which is great for patients. I'm not complaining at all. So it kind of balanced those things out, but there were some drugs where it pushed down the price and, and that's always a positive. There's no downside there at all. Um, but I think the bigger issue was that we had biosimilars come out, um, and that pushed the price of, like, Stelara-
- KSKara Swisher
Explain what that is for people who don't-
- MCMark Cuban
So biosimilar is like a generic for an injectable drug. Instead of it being a tablet, which would just be called a generic, it is an injectable drug. So, like Stelara, Humira, right? Thing, th- that are injectable. They had the equivalent, a generic version with, uh, it's called a biosimilar, and that dropped the price for Stelara for, from $128,000 a year to, on Cost Plus, it's $365 plus shipping every couple months, right? For Humira, it went from 8,000 a month to, like, $400 a month, 450 a month on Cost Plus. And so you saw some really, really expensive, popular drugs drop in price significantly, and I think that drove it more than anything.
- KSKara Swisher
Drove it more than anything. What else has to be done to bring the prices down? So you wanna be on the Trump RX site because you want, um, volume, right?
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah
- KSKara Swisher
Presumably. People using it.
- MCMark Cuban
I think he's done a great job on IVF.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- MCMark Cuban
Right?
- KSKara Swisher
Explain that.
- MCMark Cuban
He said, meaning if you're trying to, you know, build a family, and you need the, the fertility drugs, they were really expensive, and he negotiated lower prices. Give him credit for that. You know, he put some, some pressure on the GLP-1 guys, and they came out and, particularly within Medicare, where in certain cases you can get it for $50 a month. So he helped push in that direction. So, you know, love him or hate him, and s- I'm certainly not gonna say anything that's gonna change anybody's mind, and I'm not gonna try. But at the same time, you know, give him credit where credit is due.
- KSKara Swisher
So you got in a lot of trouble when you were arguing with people. You pulled a, a curse thing. I didn't think you should take that down, honestly, um, off when people were arguing with you. Uh, w- were you surprised by that? Because-
- MCMark Cuban
No
- KSKara Swisher
... I think your goal is very clear. You want to lower prescription drug prices.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, it's just the, the, the people, you know, that's just the way it is. You know, there's two types of TDS. There's Trump, um, Derangement Syndrome, and there's Trump Devotion Syndrome.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Yep.
- MCMark Cuban
You know?
- KSKara Swisher
That's true.
- MCMark Cuban
And they're both equal, equal, right? And whatever side of that you're on, that's the button, you know, your buttons that get pushed and the buttons you try to push. But, you know, I ignore it. Like I said, there's nothing I'm gonna say that's gonna change anybody's mind about Donald Trump, and I'm certainly not gonna try.
- KSKara Swisher
And when you're thinking about what has to be done next, y- you can't just put pressure on these, th- these people because y- you have to have other things happen, right? How do you keep that up, the idea of it, of what you're doing? Now, there was, prices did go up during COVID because the supply chain and et cetera, et cetera. How do y- what has to happen next on a, on a bigger scale?
- MCMark Cuban
On medication or across the board?
- 8:30 – 15:57
What’s Broken in Healthcare
- MCMark Cuban
um, a healthcare economy, that is driven by just a few companies. You know, they, they are, the middlemen are driving up the cost of everything. You know, not just pharmacy, but also medical costs, you name it. There's nothing. They don't, they don't contribute much of any value, yet they increase the cost. They, you know, they make it more miserable for doctors to be doctors.
- KSKara Swisher
What's the technical name for these guys? They're, um-
- MCMark Cuban
Well, there's a bunch of them, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- MCMark Cuban
So, you know, so there's the big healthcare conglomerates, the Uniteds, the Cignas, the CVSs, et cetera. Um, and they ha- have hundreds, if not thousands, of subsidiaries, which include PBMs, which include third-party administrators, which include, um, copay maximizer co- all these, and consultants. There's just so many ways that they get into your pocket, and you don't even know it's them. You know, they own, um, clinics. They own, you know, doctors. They hire, you know, 10% either directly or under contract, number of doctors at the biggest healthcare conglomerate. And so, you know, that creates so much friction and so much cost in the system that ev- we don't even control the cost of our healthcare system anymore.
- KSKara Swisher
No, it's, it's, it's interesting 'cause I, I think about my own... I have a bunch of prescription drugs, and I don't e- even understand them, and I'm a smart person. Like, I don't understand where the... It's not easy for anybody-
- MCMark Cuban
No
- KSKara Swisher
... and obviously-
- MCMark Cuban
No, that's why we started Cost Plus, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Right.
- MCMark Cuban
Because nobody knows the cost-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, I use Cost Plus.
- MCMark Cuban
And I, I thank you for that.
- KSKara Swisher
No problem.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, costplusdrugs.com. Um, nobody understand, nobody knows what something costs. Nobody understands why it costs it. Nobody understands why there's a different price for everybody. Nobody understands why there's no transparency other than Cost Plus Drugs, literally. And so if you don't understand these things, uh, it's designed to be confusing. The more information asymmetry, the better leverage they have to raise prices and create friction, and that's exactly what they do, and there's a lot of indirect, not obvious scenarios that are created. So, so much work is done to be able to, um, provide the information that they require for each claim, for each medical instance or pharmacy, that you're driving doctors crazy. Not only are you reducing the amount of time they're able to spend with patients, but you're, you're creating burnout to the Nth degree, and it wouldn't shock me, you know, if we're starting to see the, the number of applicants for med school start to decline.
- KSKara Swisher
It's my brother's number one complaint. He's a doctor. Number one complaint.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Number one.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah. It's all the shit they make you do other than caring for the patient, and it's not necessary. You could extract all that. If you, if you just got rid of PBMs, and literally not even get rid of them. If you just say, made a law that said, um, PBMs are no longer able to control formularies. Formularies are that thing you have to look at with your insurance coverage to see if your drug is covered or not. That gives the PBMs all the leverage to go to all these big brand and specialty drug manufacturers and say, "Look, if you don't do exactly what we want in paying rebates, doing business or not doing business with Cost Plus Drugs, then we're gonna diminish your positioning on the formulary so that you're no longer available to the 80 million people we cover, and not just for one drug, but for your entire portfolio."
- KSKara Swisher
Pamphlet.
- MCMark Cuban
Or we'll... Yeah. So that's costing you hundreds of millions or billions, so they have that much control, and they do so little.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- MCMark Cuban
You know? They don't-
- KSKara Swisher
What-
- MCMark Cuban
... really add much value.
- KSKara Swisher
What do they try to do to your company? What is the biggest challenge you guys face?
- MCMark Cuban
Well, they just, they tell these brands, like, we have almost every generic, other than controlled substances. We don't wanna deal-
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- MCMark Cuban
... with that hassle yet.
- KSKara Swisher
But not everything's generic, and some critical drugs are not.
- 15:57 – 22:49
Costco Gets Into Medicare
- KSKara Swisher
into the Medicare business. The company is teaming up with nonprofit insurer SCAN Group to launch Costco-branded Medicare Advantage plans in two states and Medicare supplement plans in a third. The plans will integrate Costco offerings like prescriptions and over-the-counter drugs, plus vision and hearing products. Uh, talk about this. It was really... You know, I'm getting close to Medicare, and although I have insurance, so I don't quite know what I need to do in that regard, by the way, it's so confusing, 'cause I have kids, and so I wanna keep my insurance, but, um, what do you think of the, this kinda thing?
- MCMark Cuban
It's a sales and marketing effort, right? It's, I mean, I don't know enough about the details to say if it's good or bad. There are some, you know... The thing that people don't realize about Medicare in general, it is driven mostly by private insurance companies.
- KSKara Swisher
It is.
- MCMark Cuban
Medicare Advantage is all private insurance, UnitedHealthcare-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- MCMark Cuban
... in this case-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- MCMark Cuban
... the new one with Costco. You know, Costco does a good job. Hopefully, you know, it'll be an aboveboard product, 'cause not-
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- MCMark Cuban
... all of them are.
- KSKara Swisher
No, they are not.
- MCMark Cuban
Then you have traditional Medicare Part A, Part B, but then you have to buy supplemental insurance because you still, you know, have a 20% hickey that you have to pay for out of pocket for medical, right? And then you, it doesn't cover your, um, pharmacy. That's Part D. So you use that from, um, a traditional insurance company. So you're getting, you have the same problems even though you're on Medicare.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Right. People say take A and B, not Advantage and D.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, uh, yeah, and get supplemental insurance too.
- KSKara Swisher
Right, right, exactly. But it, but it, does this help if, if a company like Costco is doing this? People have a lot of trust in the company.
- MCMark Cuban
No, it's still the same numbers. The math is still the same math. You can be more efficient and offer incremental s- um, incremental benefits. So you might, you know, Costco could offer lower cost over-the-counter drugs. They can offer lower cost prescription, um, eyeglasses because it's Costco.
- KSKara Swisher
But it's not the future of healthcare, turning it over-
- MCMark Cuban
No
- KSKara Swisher
... to big business.
- MCMark Cuban
No, no, no.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. So again, what has to happen is what?
- MCMark Cuban
Well, I mean-
- KSKara Swisher
These bills
- MCMark Cuban
... so you've got to get rid of the middleman, right? And so what I push for all the time is to g- uh, get cities and states and companies to let me look at their contracts. Because I'll, what I do is I've set up my Claude, so I'll just run, and anybody can do this. I run the contracts through Claude, and I just tell them where they're getting fucked over.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh. Yeah.
- MCMark Cuban
And they have no idea. I've literally had some big, big companies do it, talk to me, realize just how badly these PBMs and TPAs, the big, the big conglomerates are ripping them off, and now they're changing to, you know, they're pass-through, um, PBMs like RightWay and, um, 360, um, or Smith Rx and Right, um, I forget all the names of them. But in any event, so there's alternatives. You don't have to go just with the big guy. And you're doing the country a big disservice. And look, you know tech, right? And so- You know, these guys are trying to do all they can to figure out AI, and it's expensive. The easiest way for any big tech company for more, with more than 1,000 members, you know, employees and families, is to look at their healthcare benefits. Because every penny they save on their healthcare benefits is cash flow that goes right to the bottom line. And they j- it's just not their core competency.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- MCMark Cuban
And what happens is their HR departments, particularly in tech, are always undermanned and understaffed. And you know that when somebody has a problem at Vox Media or whoever does your healthcare and benefits, they go right to HR, and they complained about getting, you know, having to go through this pre-authorization process about the claim being denied, and HR spends 90% of their time doing that and doesn't have the resources to look at reducing costs. And when they do see, and I'll walk in the door and meet with them, and huge companies, Mark, you're right. We could save millions if not tens of millions of dollars or more, and give us a 20 PE, that's 200 million, $2 billion, whatever it is in market cap, but we're afraid of our employees because they don't want to change the logo on their card.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh.
- MCMark Cuban
They want that same insurance card.
- 22:49 – 25:12
Divesting From Big Health Insurers
- KSKara Swisher
talking. You wrote, "If you own shares in a fund that owns any big, of the biggest insurance carriers, you're part of the cost of healthcare problem in this country. Those companies put the share price over the health of you, your family, coworkers, and friends. The worst part is that they will lie and mislead you to make more. Tell the funds you own that you will sell if they don't divest their interest in the biggest insurance companies." That, that's something else to do that. Explain why you're calling this out now, and do you think funds will actually divest?
- MCMark Cuban
So no, they won't. Some can't just because it's SPX or it's part of an index, right? But they won't because their interest is just in making money, not in doing what's best for the country, and it's the same with the big insurance companies. Their fiduciary responsibility, at least right now, is to shareholders. That's all they care about.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Reminds me of tech companies, but go ahead.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, right? Um, but when you listen to the quarterly earnings conference calls or run them through your favorite LLM, right, and you just say, "Did they say anything about reducing costs for patients?" The answer's never yes.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Yep, yep, yep.
- MCMark Cuban
You know, and if they maybe save something here, they're making it up in fees or somewhere else. They're not, th- they're rarely saying, like, um, one company, one PBM insurance company said their earnings are gonna be a little bit lower for two years because they're making this one adjustment on rebates, but they'll make it up after that and more than compensate and get back to their normal margins. Get the fuck out of here. Like, y- nobody is going to change their habits that run these companies unless it impacts it where they care, and that's the price of the stock.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. S- so does that happen? I mean, it works with South African companies, it works, but this is-
- MCMark Cuban
Right
- KSKara Swisher
... this is sort of-
- MCMark Cuban
No, it can. When someone, you know, if you had Bernie saying, "Do this," if you had, you know, Jayapal doing this instead of pushing for Medicare for All and just talking trash there, um, something could happen. If you had Republicans pushing it, it could happen. But again, that's where their money's coming from.
- KSKara Swisher
That's where their money's coming from.
- MCMark Cuban
And I'm not saying Bernie and Rep Jayapal are getting it, but a lot of people are.
- KSKara Swisher
So what would you, um, what reaction did you get? But they must have been like, "Mark"
- MCMark Cuban
Not a whole lot, honestly.
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- MCMark Cuban
Just a couple articles and, you know, some requests for quotes, and nobody said, "Yeah, I did it."
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- MCMark Cuban
Not one single person.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna do it, Mark.
- MCMark Cuban
Thank you.
- KSKara Swisher
I shall do it. I shall do it.
- MCMark Cuban
Thank you.
- KSKara Swisher
Now, yet another, uh, post of
- 25:12 – 33:02
Are Chips the New Crypto?
- KSKara Swisher
yours is generating buzz this week, a prediction one outlet says has investors watching. You posted, "Chips as an asset class will be the new crypto." Explain for me.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, I mean, I sold most of my Bitcoin. I went from not being a believer to being a believer, think- thinking it, um, it's a better gold than gold because it's digital. Um, and I also believe that it would be a good hedge against political and geopolitical instability, that it'd be a hedge against, you know, um, economic instability.
- KSKara Swisher
No, yeah. Scott got washed out too, by the way. [chuckles]
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah. Bitcoin has lost the plot.
- KSKara Swisher
Tell me why. Explain.
- MCMark Cuban
Well, all the things I just mentioned had to come true. That's what the maxis were pushing, right? It's protection, protection against fiat instability, you know, money printer go brr, right? Money printer's brr-ing as much as it could possibly brr, right? And the dollar is down, and so you would think the price of Bitcoin in dollars would be skyrocketing, particularly with all this geopolitical instability and all the uncertainty. But it's not. It's, you know, it's flatlined for the most part, um, because if there's not a good narrative, like any other stock, right? If the narrative isn't good, supply and demand defines the price unless it pays dividend, which these don't, and so people aren't buying it. And the reason I said chips are the, the next thing is because it's not intuitive until you really think about it, right? Chips are like, you know, the NVIDIA chips, AMD chips, maybe TPUs from Google and some others. Amazon's trying to make their own, you know, all that stuff.
- KSKara Swisher
Apple is, yeah, Apple.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, Apple is, right. They're like apartments, right? You can rent them, and when they're brand new, they're worth the most, and you might as well rent them out the m- at the highest price. And then over time, they degrade in quality, um, 'cause you can't improve them, um, at least not now. And so I think it makes a good investment, and it makes one that you can create a really cool narrative about, and there's so much money chasing it that the crypto bros kinda like these types of things, right? And so narrative makes economic sense. Um, lots of money there, new crypto.
- KSKara Swisher
How do you make it an asset class then? Just the stocks in it? The stocks of companies that make it?
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, you, you can tokenize it. You can use crypto there to tokenize it and sell it as a real-world asset. Um, they can do different types of-
- KSKara Swisher
Tokenize the stocks To-
- MCMark Cuban
No, tokenize a chip.
- KSKara Swisher
A chip?
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, a chip. Uh, you know, here's, here's the right to the, to, to... You own the rights, like a barrel of oil. You can buy it and sell it, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, like what-
- MCMark Cuban
Exch-
- KSKara Swisher
... Michael Saylor was doing, right? Correct or not?
- MCMark Cuban
Well, kind of, yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah. With, with the Bitcoin itself.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- MCMark Cuban
That's a lot more complicated. That's more financial engineering, right? But more like you can put contracts on the, um, the chips and le- and take the share of revenue created from that chip and sell it.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Oh, interesting. Are you doing that?
- MCMark Cuban
I'm still trying to learn. There's... I mean, it's relatively new.
- KSKara Swisher
What's the, what's the reaction to that?
- MCMark Cuban
I mean, it was like, "Interesting. Let's see what happens." And the crypto bros that are still holding on, "You're an idiot." You know, "You're dumb." Um-
- KSKara Swisher
Holder. Holder. What are they waiting for? What are they, what are they actually... They're hoping it will go to the sky. What-
- MCMark Cuban
Well, there's, there's still a chance-
- KSKara Swisher
... revolution?
- MCMark Cuban
... it gets hot again, right?
- 33:02 – 43:20
Billionaires Buying Sports Teams
- KSKara Swisher
Family drama is complicating the blockbuster sale of the LA Lakers. Jeanie Buss, controlling owner of the Lakers, is challenging her siblings' attempts to sell the family's remaining 17.8% stake, arguing the sale can't happen without her consent. This comes after former Disney CEO Bob Iger and Thrive Capital's Josh Kushner, the other Kushner, agreed to buy the Lakers from current majority owner Mark Walter in a deal valued at $12.5 billion. Walter's in a bit of a trouble with all, all manner of his very problematic empire, whatever it is. Iger and Kushner are already buying 60% of the, 65% of the team, adding the Buss family shares would bring their ownership to roughly 83%. I know this is a world you know well. I, I was really fascinated in this. You bought the Dallas Mavericks in 2000. You sold your majority stake in 2023. We're talking about chips as an asset class, but our sports teams seem to be an asset class now. And I'll note recently, Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones said he was open to, uh, you coming on as a minority owner, but the team is-
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, he was just kidding. Yeah
- KSKara Swisher
... yeah, only investors at this point. Uh-
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah
- KSKara Swisher
... uh, but you, you'd, I assume you'd buy it if, if it was available, presumably. But that's-
- MCMark Cuban
Depends on, yeah. Neither here nor there
- KSKara Swisher
... the price.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Depends on the price. So, uh, explain what's happening here for me. I, I, I find this really interesting, especially, you know, you have Iger in there, which is interesting. I think he's the pretty one, and Josh is the money. Um, explain what's happening here.
- MCMark Cuban
Couple things. One, it's a vanity asset. Like, if I didn't buy the Dallas Mavericks, probably wouldn't know who I was, right? I mean, you would 'cause of tech, but most people would not.
- KSKara Swisher
They would not.
- MCMark Cuban
I would not be a celebrity.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- MCMark Cuban
I wouldn't have gotten on Shark Tank.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- MCMark Cuban
Right? David Stern, rest in peace, was the commissioner of the NBA, and he used to always say, "I made you by fining you all those times."
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- MCMark Cuban
And he was right.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- MCMark Cuban
You know?
- KSKara Swisher
[laughs]
- MCMark Cuban
It is the ultimate vanity asset. There's-
- KSKara Swisher
Wasn't your behavior.
- MCMark Cuban
No.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- MCMark Cuban
You know, it, it, there was, there's 30 NBA teams, 32 in other leagues, and so we know Jerry Jones's name, not because he was in the oil business, you know? People now know who Josh Kushner is, not just because of his brother. And so that, it, one, it's a vanity asset. Um, two, because it's a vanity asset, and now the leagues are allowing private equity to get involved, that's increasing the prices because private equity chases where the narratives are, you know? And this is crypto for rich people in some respects, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Right, yeah.
- MCMark Cuban
It's, it's where the fun narrative is. But from a true business perspective, there's two sides to this. One, if you can leverage it to build, you know, so if you look around Staples Center where crypto.com center, right? There's all kinds of cool stuff. There's, um, if you go by, there's the Battery outside Atlanta, right? There's, by the Chase Center, there's all kinds of stuff, right? And so if you're able to build all that stuff, you can make real money. So it's not the team per se, but it's the leverage it gives you by the traffic it draws.
- KSKara Swisher
Around, in the surrounding area. Yeah.
- MCMark Cuban
Right.
- 43:20 – 50:34
California’s Billionaire Tax
- KSKara Swisher
voters will consider a proposed one-time five percent tax on billionaires this month, a measure backed by Representative Ro Khanna. One, uh, big question is how founders whose wealth is tied up in a company's stock would pay the tax without selling shares. Khanna suggests the state could provide loans in exchange for shares, but the terms are not, uh, uh, that are long but not infinite. You called the idea, I think the word is insane, uh, the technical term, arguing the state would be essentially lending billionaires money so they could give it right back as taxes. I have to agree with you on this one.
- MCMark Cuban
[chuckles]
- KSKara Swisher
And I, I have different thoughts on the billion- I think people should pay more taxes who are wealthier, as you know.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah. That's fine.
- KSKara Swisher
Um, but tell me more about your concerns and, and where this is. You know, Sergey Brin's, you know, busting the bank trying to stop this thing. It may, it'll, it'll ultimately probably will pass, would be my guess. Is, is my guess, but I don't know.
- MCMark Cuban
I mean, I could tell you at a base, like my, my daughter just graduated from college, and she was asking about living in LA. I'm like, "You can't afford it." Right? The taxes are insane. But going back just to the billionaire stuff, right? People don't realize that a billionaire doesn't mean you have a billion dollars in liquid assets. Chances are you might have five percent if you're lucky.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- MCMark Cuban
If you're-
- KSKara Swisher
Vest it in stock is what you're saying.
- MCMark Cuban
Or, and it might be in non-li- y- not publicly available stock. It might be in illiquid assets that you can't sell.
- KSKara Swisher
Which is why they borrow against it all the time. Correct.
- MCMark Cuban
Well, yeah, if they're able to. It, it's more recent that you're even able to borrow against private stock, right? But even then, there's so many things that can work against you, you know? And you-- and particularly now, companies aren't going as public as much as they used to. Like, it's a big deal for SpaceX. It's a big deal for OpenAI. It's a big deal if Anthropic goes public, right? All these other AI companies in particular, it, based in California, that are raising, you know, money at ten billion dollars and more, those guys might-- I mean, like, if I'm investing in one of those, I don't want the money going right into the pockets of the, the founders, right? You can take a little bit, but if you're-- let's just say to make it easy numbers, if you have a company that's valued at ten billion dollars and you have three founders that each own ten percent, they're billionaires by the State of California's definition. The chances of them having fifty million dollars in cash are zero. Zero. So now all of a sudden what Ro wanted to do, and I like Ro. We get along great. I respect him. Um, I think his heart's in the right place, but he's a politician first, right? And so the idea that, "Hey, Kara, you just did this AI thing and you did a company valued at ten billion. You own your ten percent. You are a billionaire. Kara, I know you don't have fifty million or anywhere near it, and you don't have liquidity at all. So I'm going to loan against your shares in a non-recourse deal, right? And we'll give you that fifty million dollars so you can give it right back to us. And if you can't pay us in the future, we'll just have, we'll just keep the shares of your stock." Well, y- what does not pay actually mean? You've seen many tech companies who have grown, grown profits, right? Added thousands of employees, right? Um, paid who knows how much in taxes, particularly in the state of California. You know, just benefited the communities, and the founders don't have fifty million dollars.
- KSKara Swisher
So what, w-what-- tell, tell me about this tax, how you're feeling about it.
- MCMark Cuban
I think it's ridiculous. I think it's gonna cost them more. They're gonna say, and look, people say, "Well, you're a billionaire," right? Well, look, you're already getting people moving. You're getting companies moving. So they said that they would raise twenty million. Because you can delay it, right? You don't have to pay it all at once. Um, the estimate amount that I read when I was looking into all that stuff was twenty billion dollars a year, and ninety percent of that was going to go to medical for, to Medi-Cal, right? To make up for the money that was lost in the Medicaid, um, need to work stuff, right? And then ten percent for education and like. Well, you have to do the math. Could you lose if the average job pays a hundred thousand dollars before benefits, right? Could you lose two hundred thousand jobs a year? The answer is yes. You could be cutting off your nose to, to slight your face.
- KSKara Swisher
So how would you do this? 'Cause people, you know there's this, I mean, the polling is very clear with voters.
- MCMark Cuban
Oh, no, everybody wants my money, and-
- KSKara Swisher
Right
- MCMark Cuban
... you know, unfortunately, usually they say they'll eat me last, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MCMark Cuban
And so-
- KSKara Swisher
Yes
- MCMark Cuban
... and, and I get it.
- KSKara Swisher
You are, you are the favored billionaire.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, one up, yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Although you would be delicious, I will say, compared to many of them.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, we know. [chuckles]
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Elon would be-
- MCMark Cuban
Um, so-
- KSKara Swisher
... gamey. Go ahead.
- MCMark Cuban
[laughs] I mean, the obvious answer, you spend less, right?
- 50:34 – 54:39
Turning Against Big Tech
- KSKara Swisher
Meta, the Meta case in Oakland, California happening right now, the data centers. I've been doing show after-- We, I've been talking about this for y- I, I went in to visit some Facebook people, and they asked me what I thought. I said, "People hate you." And they're like, "Oh, yeah," but what do you think? I go, "People hate you." I was like, it's... And I said, "And data centers is just a proxy for that." And actually, you also-
- MCMark Cuban
I wrote a tweet about that.
- KSKara Swisher
You're also-
- MCMark Cuban
I tweeted exactly that.
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, I know you did.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
And I was like, "They hate you, and, well, some of them can be good." I said, "But many of them aren't, and you really are treating these people like shit."
- MCMark Cuban
And I think Facebook is the worst of the worst.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- MCMark Cuban
Right?
- KSKara Swisher
Well, Elon with the gas-spewing things in, in Memphis didn't help matters.
- MCMark Cuban
No, that doesn't help.
- KSKara Swisher
Or your friend Kevin. Or your friend Kevin.
- MCMark Cuban
Well, yeah. Kevin just wants to make money. Um-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Really? I had no idea.
- MCMark Cuban
No idea, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- MCMark Cuban
But let's talk about Meta.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- MCMark Cuban
And I'll give you, this is my Michigan-like experience with Meta.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. All right. Okay.
- MCMark Cuban
Every single week, I get emails from little old men and ladies saying, "Will my cure for diabetes work?" Or, "I just ordered your cure for diabetes for $294."
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, no.
- MCMark Cuban
And I'm like, I already know the answer now, which is they're using an AI version of me, and Meta allows it. It's always on Facebook, right? Where I come in and I say... And I've seen it, and I've sent it to them, and I said, "Look, you know, we'll cure diabetes, whatever, da, da, da, da, da." And then when you read the fine print all the way at the bottom, this is just an AI representation of Mark Cuban. It's not real. This is for entertainment purposes always. And to Facebook, that's good enough. Facebook knows that it's bullshit. Facebook knows the little old ladies are getting-
- KSKara Swisher
They do
- MCMark Cuban
... ripped off, right? And the point is, that defines the culture of the organization. If you're willing to rip off little old, if you-- grandparents, your grandparents, right? And that's acceptable, every t- all that kind of bullshit is acceptable top to bottom in your organization. It's just like healthcare. They do the same shit, right?
- KSKara Swisher
I was just recently meeting with a bunch of publishers who are worried about audio piracy of books. You know, they, they're doing pretty well with audiobooks, and actually it's a good, strong business. But, you know, they get pirated all the time. And YouTube is the culprit for the most part here. And people do AI, now AI versions of books and of all kinds of books, everybody's books. And then they-
- MCMark Cuban
Oh, yeah. I see books about me that are just AI nonsense, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Well, that's, that's also books generated. That's, Amazon does that. But-
- MCMark Cuban
Right.
- 54:39 – 59:34
Medicare for All?
- MCMark Cuban
Until you look at the fine print and see all the references that they used, right? So they s- I looked at these numbers to get to a trillion, and one of the numbers was $265 billion that elim- and it was elimination of fraud. I'm like, "$265 billion? That's like, that's a big number."
- KSKara Swisher
Elon tried it. Seemed to... I think it cost him money.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, it didn't work at all, right?
- KSKara Swisher
No. Right.
- MCMark Cuban
So I go down to the footnotes, and I'm like, okay, there's this article that was written in 2003 about Taiwan and their conversion to universal healthcare. I'm like, "Okay, so what happened?" Well, Taiwan went from a paper system basically, um, and uh- Market-driven system to a transition to universal healthcare. It was a disaster the first couple years. But there was this article written that said they saved 8% on waste. So what does the au- do the authors of this article-
- KSKara Swisher
They just extrapolate. They extrapolate
- MCMark Cuban
... they extrapolate from Taiwan from nineteen ninety-five-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Yeah
- MCMark Cuban
... a paper-based system, and they applied it to the US budget, right? And so they get, you know, three trillion times 8%, you know, and it gets near two hundred and sixty-five billion. That is the problem. You've got something that everybody wants. Like, if, if I-- we walked out there and we said, "It's a dollar a month to give healthcare for each person, a dollar a month per person," everybody's like, "Yeah, let's go." Republicans be for it, everybody'd be for it, right? But we're not trying to figure out a solution, right? We don't know what those costs are, a lot of the reasons we talked about earlier, but you can't lie about it.
- KSKara Swisher
No.
- MCMark Cuban
You have to put together a plan-
- KSKara Swisher
Plan, right
- MCMark Cuban
... that gets you from here to there.
- KSKara Swisher
Yes. Yes. Yes
- MCMark Cuban
Another thing that they did was they said, "If we change the, um, what we pay the best hospitals in the country, right, to Medicare rates, they would make up the losses in revenue by the reduction in administrative costs." That's the biggest bunch of horseshit. If you walk into a really nice hospital, right, it's designed to be a really nice hospital. It's got all the machines that go ping, the really, really expensive stuff, right? And they've got the most expensive doctors. If you start paying doctors in those hospitals Medicare rates, you know what they're gonna do? They're, they're gonna opt out. They're not gonna be available to anybody on Medicare, right? And the hospitals are gonna opt out. But in both Bernie's and Representative Jayapal's Medicare for All, right, like in this article, in this study, they just accepted that as fact. There's just no way. And then the crème de la crème in both of those Medicare for All, um, pr- um, legislations that were proposed, S- Section 4, Administration. At the discretion of the Secretary of Health and Human Services, they have the option to figure out everything, basically. It's a fucking politically appointed position. How would it be going right now?
- KSKara Swisher
[chuckles] Yes.
- MCMark Cuban
Right?
- KSKara Swisher
We'd all have measles.
- MCMark Cuban
It would be a dis-
- KSKara Swisher
Measles for everybody, and then salmonella
- MCMark Cuban
It'd be a disaster.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- MCMark Cuban
And yet they just make it seem like everything is perfect, that in the case of the Jayapal-
- KSKara Swisher
I, I don't-- I, I'm gonna push back. I don't think anything is perfect. It's like a sentiment of people are tired of the-
- MCMark Cuban
Yes
- KSKara Swisher
... what you talked about at the top, right?
- MCMark Cuban
So fix the problem.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Well-
- MCMark Cuban
Fix the problem. Don't p- come up and say-
- KSKara Swisher
We may need an entirely new system. We, we-
- 59:34 – 1:06:31
Will Mark Cuban Run for President?
- KSKara Swisher
over the years about who we want to run for president, and-
- MCMark Cuban
[chuckles]
- KSKara Swisher
... one name keeps coming up. Let's listen to a clip.
- SPSpeaker
By the way, who's gonna be the next president? 'Cause according to AP, you get to decide.
- KSKara Swisher
I'd rather have Mark Cuban. I'd vote for Cuban.
- SPSpeaker
He's clearly positioning himself for a run, and I hope he runs.
- KSKara Swisher
I want Cubes.
- SPSpeaker
Oh, he's super smart, super impressive guy, and a decent man.
- KSKara Swisher
I would pick Mark Cuban. Honestly, I would. I would like that 'cause I'd get to go to the Lincoln Bedroom, largely. That's my goal.
- MCMark Cuban
[laughs]
- KSKara Swisher
Um, I get a lot of shit for saying that, by the way, but-
- MCMark Cuban
Good
- KSKara Swisher
... I don't really care. Um, you-- I have actually tr- written saying you should run. I have. I-- we text all... We have very funny texts. Um, and you have resisted. And I, I, it's the one thing I'm asked more than anything else. It, you know, 'cause I've been interviewing all these different possible candidates for Democrats. I am gonna move to the Republicans soon. It's hard right now. They don't wanna talk about it until Trump is out of the picture in some, in a m- a, a more substantive way. Um, talk about why you don't wanna run. Explain for people, so I don't have to anymore.
- MCMark Cuban
Because everything is... There's, it's, it's all laws, right? You gotta, everything... I think like an entrepreneur, right? If I see-- Like, we were just talking about Medicare for All. I want universal healthcare in some f- form or f-fashion, right? We need to make sure that everybody in this country has a right and gets care, healthcare that they need. It would help the economy, yada, yada, yada. All the second and third order effects are enormous, right? And so I w- if I was president, you would think, well, you could go... I've talked to people at HHS, CMS. There is no from here to there, and I've talked to, you know, about the breakup big medicine bill. You-- There's not one single senator that wants to support it other than those two. Same with the, the legislation f- You know, I've talked to Bernie's people about how do we change this? They, whether I was president or not, that ain't gonna change. Their self-interest stays the same. Whereas as an entrepreneur, I can do things like Cost Plus Drugs, Cost Plus Wellness, all the other things that we're working on that allow me to have an impact. I can go and bang on the door of a CEO and call him a moron, or her a moron, to their face, and actually ins- it could change-
- KSKara Swisher
You can do that as president now. You can call people morons and worse.
- MCMark Cuban
Well, yeah, you could, but then I gotta-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah
- MCMark Cuban
... kiss the babies.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- MCMark Cuban
I gotta do all the stuff. I gotta worry about stuff that maybe I'm not the best person, you know, or most qualified towards. I have to have temperament, which I don't have. I have to have patience, which I don't have.
- KSKara Swisher
Again, allowed now. Just so you know-
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, it's allowed-
- KSKara Swisher
... it changed
- MCMark Cuban
... but doesn't make it right.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- MCMark Cuban
You know?
- KSKara Swisher
That's fair. That's fair. Although I, I doubt you'll go down those roads. Um, e- but w- but the idea is you're more effective outside-
- MCMark Cuban
Yes
- KSKara Swisher
... than inside, inside.
- MCMark Cuban
Yes. I can do things, right? I can create change. I truly believe I'm going to change healthcare. I'm posi- I, yes, I've already had a big impact. You know, I've seen things change. I've seen people come... Every day I hear about people, like you mentioned, you're using it, right? Cost Plus Drugs.
- 1:06:31 – 1:09:59
Predictions
- KSKara Swisher
a prediction.
- MCMark Cuban
James Talarico, let's go.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, okay. Tell me.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, I'm a big fan. I'm a huge fan.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, I know you are.
- MCMark Cuban
Um, I think he's honest, he's trustworthy, he cares, um, he'll do the right thing as opposed to the politically expedient thing. Um, I think he truly wants to change, you know, bring back reality to politics, and I, I, I think he's got a real chance to win.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, so you really do believe that. I mean-
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah
- KSKara Swisher
... the polls are pretty good in his favor, I'll tell you.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, and you can't tell in polls anymore, but-
- KSKara Swisher
That's right, you can't
- MCMark Cuban
... you know, but he's going-
- KSKara Swisher
The fake polls
- MCMark Cuban
... into red areas. He's going into red areas and drawing big crowds.
- KSKara Swisher
Big crowds. And, and what would you say to some of those voters who- I mean, first of all, Ken Paxton seems like literally a, a, a villain. [laughs] It's just everything-
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah
- KSKara Swisher
... he does seems awful.
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, I'm not a fan. Yeah, not a fan.
- KSKara Swisher
No, I don't think many people are. But how do you, what do you say then to those red voters?
- MCMark Cuban
Do what's best for the state of Texas. Do what's best for your, your wallet. Do what's best for you, right? There's nobody in... Uh, the same thing my, my buddy who voted for Trump in 2016, I say the same thing to all these voters. "You've been voting for Republicans all these years. What have they done for you?"
- KSKara Swisher
In Texas, yeah.
- MCMark Cuban
Now it's time for somebody who is going to literally be able to sit with you at the dinner table and discuss your budget, and be able to relate to it. And hopefully, you know, with help from folks like me, go talk to grocery stores, go talk to manufacturers, go talk to oil companies, whatever it may be, and come up with some solutions, and really try to change things beyond just legislation.
- KSKara Swisher
All right. Talarico, that's it. All right, I'm gonna be a very, very short prediction. This Meta trial that's happening in Oakland right now, it's a trial brought by 29 states which charge the company with violating federal child pri- pri- uh, privacy and state consumer protection laws. They're going for product liability here, and nuisance, and public interest. California's deputy attorney general said in an opening statements, this is another, by the way, Rob Bonta case, uh, among the others. There's a lot of states here. There's a ton of states. "Meta's business model can be summed up in four simple words: hook the users, hold them, uh, for as long as they can, harvest their data, and then hide the truth from the public when making public statements." I thought it was highly effective, which was hook, hold, harvest, hide.
- MCMark Cuban
Yes, that is a great, great slogan.
- KSKara Swisher
Uh, it's the beginning of the cigarette... I, I've not said this before-
- MCMark Cuban
Yeah, I agree
- KSKara Swisher
... but they're coming from-
- MCMark Cuban
I agree
- KSKara Swisher
... everywhere, from data centers.
- MCMark Cuban
I hope so. I truly, truly, truly hope so, because whoever controls the algorithm controls the mind of your kids, and the mind of adults too, I mean, in politics.
Episode duration: 1:09:59
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