Sam Altman Says OpenAI Not "Moral Police" After Backlash | Pivot

Scott Galloway 0:00 ... Sam Altman saying, "We shouldn't be the morality police." No. No. Actually, you should.

Kara Swisher 0:08 (instrumental music) Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway 0:17 And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher 0:18 Scott, guess where I am?

Scott Galloway 0:20 Where are you?

Kara Swisher 0:20 Los Angeles, your favorite place. You love Los Angeles.

Scott Galloway 0:23 Really?

Kara Swisher 0:23 Yes.

Scott Galloway 0:24 And what are you doing there?

Kara Swisher 0:26 Um, I am working on the, one of the last interviews for this secret documentary series (laughs) with, uh, the, the hacking guy.

Scott Galloway 0:32 The Worst Kept, Worst Kept Secret?

Kara Swisher 0:34 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 0:34 The hacking guy.

Kara Swisher 0:35 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 0:36 I met him at the Aspen Gathering.

Kara Swisher 0:38 Oh.

Scott Galloway 0:38 Um, yeah.

Kara Swisher 0:40 Thoughts? Did you discuss all your body-

Scott Galloway 0:43 All my stuff?

Kara Swisher 0:44 ... hacking. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 0:45 Well, of course, he wanted to know my secret.

Kara Swisher 0:48 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 0:48 Um, and I said, "Well, actually, you know, I'm like, other than, you know, the lower facelift-"

Kara Swisher 0:54 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 0:54 "... the chin implant-"

Kara Swisher 0:54 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 0:55 "... my eyes done-"

Kara Swisher 0:56 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 0:56 "... the pico laser-"

Kara Swisher 0:57 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 0:57 "... the fractal laser, the vitamin A, vitamin D, NAD, and testosterone shots, it's all just genetics. I guess I'm lucky."

Kara Swisher 1:04 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:05 "I guess I'm lucky. Oh, and I for- I forgot to mention, I've worked out four times a week for the last 40 years."

Kara Swisher 1:10 Yeah. I think that's called epigenetics, things that you do to affect yourself.

Scott Galloway 1:14 Uh, I, I think it's called narcissism-

Kara Swisher 1:16 Yes.

Scott Galloway 1:16 ... and midlife crisis.

Kara Swisher 1:16 Well, we're gonna talk about that.

Scott Galloway 1:17 It started at the age of eight, and it's still going on.

Kara Swisher 1:18 We're gonna talk about that topic because I do think a lot of this is born of narcissism. (laughs) See, I feel like-

Scott Galloway 1:24 No, 100%.

Kara Swisher 1:24 ... if I insult him, I'm insulting you, but a- a- here-

Scott Galloway 1:27 100%.

Kara Swisher 1:27 Here we are. Um, I mean, I'm s-

Scott Galloway 1:29 It's not... You know what, though? It's not easy.

Kara Swisher 1:31 Hm.

Scott Galloway 1:31 It's not easy being a four. Like, uh-

Kara Swisher 1:34 You're not a four.

Scott Galloway 1:36 ... when I was younger, well, anyways, when I was younger, I was handsome. That was really good.

Kara Swisher 1:38 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:39 I'm getting to the point now, I think being really ugly-

Kara Swisher 1:41 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:42 ... is pretty easy-

Kara Swisher 1:43 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:43 ... 'cause you just sort of lean into it and give up. Like, I'm almost there. I'm ready to lean into the ugly. It's being kind of-

Kara Swisher 1:48 Ugly is unattractive, you know? Ugly can be unattractive.

Scott Galloway 1:50 Yeah. That's-

Kara Swisher 1:51 It can be attractive. Excuse me. Ugly can be-

Scott Galloway 1:53 That's illuminating. It sounds like you won journalism awards in, in college.

Kara Swisher 1:56 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:56 Uh-

Kara Swisher 1:56 I didn't. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:57 Yeah. (laughs) I know you did. That's why I brought it up.

Kara Swisher 1:59 The fun award. Let's bring that back for people.

Scott Galloway 2:01 And you've, you've, you've brought it up several thousand times.

Kara Swisher 2:03 When I find that medal in my basement with my Bitcoin, I'm gonna wear it-

Scott Galloway 2:06 I'd love to see it.

Kara Swisher 2:06 ... every episode.

Scott Galloway 2:07 Yeah. So, wear it as a belt. Anyways, the-

Kara Swisher 2:10 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 2:10 But it's not easy being, like, I'm, I'm like mo- like, the most difficult place is being mediocre-looking.

Kara Swisher 2:17 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 2:17 It's like when I had great hair, that was awesome.

Kara Swisher 2:20 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 2:20 I actually like having a shaved head.

Kara Swisher 2:21 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 2:21 It was when I was losing my hair for 10 years, it was a pain.

Kara Swisher 2:24 Oh.

Scott Galloway 2:24 I'm in the transition phase. I'm transitioning from modestly good-looking to very definitely not good-looking.

Kara Swisher 2:30 Well...

Scott Galloway 2:31 And it's the transition that's painful.

Kara Swisher 2:33 I hate to pay you a compliment, but I think you're very good-looking.

Scott Galloway 2:36 Go on. I'm sorry. My mic was off.

Kara Swisher 2:38 You do, you're very classic d- you're the, you're very classic looks, I think. You-

Scott Galloway 2:41 Classic?

Kara Swisher 2:42 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 2:42 No one's ever described my look as classic.

Kara Swisher 2:42 Yeah. But I think Larry David's good-looking, too, I guess. I don't know.

Scott Galloway 2:45 Oh my God, you just-

Kara Swisher 2:46 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 2:46 ... blew it. You literally just blew it.

Kara Swisher 2:49 I did that on purpose. Let me think, Patrick's-

Scott Galloway 2:51 My assistant.

Kara Swisher 2:52 Patrick, um, the guy who was, um, Stewart. You have a very Patrick Stewart look.

Scott Galloway 2:55 Patrick Stewart. I've heard that before. I get-

Kara Swisher 2:56 Yeah, if you had a British accent, it would work for you.

Scott Galloway 2:59 ... I get Ivan Lendl, Bruce Dern, and-

Kara Swisher 3:02 Oh.

Scott Galloway 3:02 ... uh, Ryan Reynolds, uh, drunk uncle.

Kara Swisher 3:05 Oh.

Scott Galloway 3:05 Um-

Kara Swisher 3:06 No.

Scott Galloway 3:06 But, uh-

Kara Swisher 3:06 I would say... Oh, I like Bruce Dern. I like Bruce Dern. Another handsome... Yeah, you have that sort of like face that, yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 3:15 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 3:15 Let me hear your British accent.

Scott Galloway 3:16 My cognitive elevator face.

Kara Swisher 3:17 Let me hear your British accent.

Scott Galloway 3:18 No, I can't do accents anymore. It sounds like a dead language twin speak to each other.

Kara Swisher 3:21 You do your dad one, your Scottish one.

Scott Galloway 3:23 Yeah. I don't do this, but-

Kara Swisher 3:24 That, that's fun too.

Scott Galloway 3:24 ... I ha- I need a few drinks for that one.

Kara Swisher 3:26 You could do French.

Scott Galloway 3:27 But-

Kara Swisher 3:27 You could move to France. You could do the French accent and, and live there.

Scott Galloway 3:31 Yes. Yeah, the cheese-

Kara Swisher 3:31 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 3:31 ... the cheese-eating surrender monkeys.

Kara Swisher 3:34 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 3:34 Was that too much, too much?

Kara Swisher 3:36 That was (laughs) so attractive.

Scott Galloway 3:37 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 3:37 I don't know if I wasn't, you know-

Scott Galloway 3:39 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 3:39 ... I'd be making out with you right now. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 3:41 Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Kara Swisher 3:42 That will never happen.

Scott Galloway 3:43 That's-

Kara Swisher 3:43 That will never happen.

Scott Galloway 3:44 ... that's what happens when I start speaking French.

Kara Swisher 3:45 We will never be arrested in a (laughs) park.

Scott Galloway 3:49 We're never gonna, we're never gonna find either... We'll, we'll never find you topless in a car. We might find me topless in a car.

Kara Swisher 3:55 Yeah, that's true. We'll find you topless on stage.

Scott Galloway 3:56 Yeah. My God, we got so much feedback on that.

Kara Swisher 3:58 We got so much feedback.

Scott Galloway 4:00 People liked it.

Kara Swisher 4:00 Why did people love that so much? I felt they went together nicely, 'cause the gold coin story, I did not think was gonna land, honestly, and then it did-

Scott Galloway 4:08 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 4:08 ... like, terrifically. And then the arrest one. People loved both of them.

Scott Galloway 4:12 No, but the thing is, when you're arrested twice, it's a pattern of (laughs) -

Kara Swisher 4:17 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 4:17 ... like, you definitely... Everyone's like, "What a gangster." 'Cause if you're arrested once, who knows? You're in college. You never know, right? Or you get pulled, uh, who knows? But arrested twice definitely means, you know, you, you, you fought the law and the law won. (laughs) I mean-

Kara Swisher 4:31 The law won. I almost got arrested one other time where this-

Scott Galloway 4:33 Uh-oh.

Kara Swisher 4:34 You know when these sort of local police officers can be like-

Scott Galloway 4:36 Does it involve lesbian sex? 'Cause I'm here for it.

Kara Swisher 4:38 No. This guy was yelling at a lady, and, um, and I intervened, and he was, like, being really abusive. He's one of those, like, cops. I, I love, I like most cops, actually. I've always had relatively good... Well, most pe- some people don't. Other people do.

Scott Galloway 4:52 It's my favorite stripper is the cop uniform.

Kara Swisher 4:54 (laughs) It's true. Oh, I went to a stripper once. They had a cop strip. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 4:59 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 4:59 The Hanger Club. Why, how are you getting me to tell these-

Scott Galloway 5:02 I don't know that one.

Kara Swisher 5:02 There's this place called The Hanger-

Scott Galloway 5:03 I don't know that one. I used to have a loyalty card at that one.

Kara Swisher 5:05 I went... Actually, I just heard from all my college friends. They're all coming to DC and we're going out, and they were kind of wild. They were a wild gang, and like, always drunk and everything, and I was like the good one, and like, I'd study and come... They'd o- like, you'd come back and there'd be nine guys they made out with on the floor of our place, but we all went to a place for one of my, um, roommate's birthdays called The Hanger Club.

Scott Galloway 5:29 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 5:29 And get it? Hanger, hanger. And they would-

Scott Galloway 5:32 Hanger.

Kara Swisher 5:32 ... uh, let the strippers in. I went to a s- one of those. It was, it was something else. My God.

Scott Galloway 5:36 Were you out in college?

Kara Swisher 5:38 No. No.

Scott Galloway 5:39 No?

Kara Swisher 5:40 But it was terrible.

Scott Galloway 5:40 So you were dating, dating men or just g-

Kara Swisher 5:42 Vaguely.

Scott Galloway 5:42 ... had crushes on girls?

Kara Swisher 5:44 Vaguely.

Scott Galloway 5:44 Yeah?

Kara Swisher 5:44 You know, I had sort of stopped. I had a four-year high school boyfriend, essentially, and then I had boyfriends all the way through. Um, but I had the same boyfriend-

Scott Galloway 5:52 You had a boyfriend for four years?

Kara Swisher 5:53 Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 5:55 Wow. Are you guys still in contact?

Kara Swisher 5:57 Um, a little bit. A little bit. Um, I haven't talked to him in a while. I haven't talked to him in a while. He's great. He's a great guy.

Scott Galloway 6:03 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 6:04 Yeah, his name was Chris Price. I'll say it. He's really nice. He was really nice. Yeah, we-

Scott Galloway 6:08 Chris Price.

Kara Swisher 6:08 ... went out in 10th grade, until his freshman year of college. So, we... I broke up once in the middle of it. I knew I was gay. I should've not done that. I shouldn't have gone out with him at the time.

Scott Galloway 6:19 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 6:19 By, by that time. I should've n- I shoulda not... I should've said something. But one didn't do that then, Scott. He was lovely. I was a really good girlfriend, 'cause I put out-

Scott Galloway 6:28 I, I bet.

Kara Swisher 6:28 ... 'cause I didn't care (laughs) .

Scott Galloway 6:30 No, you're probably pretty easygoing.

Kara Swisher 6:31 Yeah. Why not? Like, what do I care? Anyway, we do have a lot to get to today, including Instagram going PG-13 and OpenAI going in the opposite direction with erotica. But first,

Kara Swisher 6:41 leaked texts from messaging platform Telegram reveal leaders of the Young Republican Groups exchange racist, sexist and anti-Semitic texts over the span of seven months. The chats included jokes about enslavement, uh, negative comments about minorities. They're really gross. I'm not gonna repeat them. But they are like, "Think of the worst thing, and then make it worse," is, was what they were. And discussions about raping enemies and driving them to suicide. Uh, uh, an- and if you see the pictures of these people, e- each one looks like an incel, honestly. The Young Republican National Federation said it was appalled by the language and suggested those involved must resign, but as usual, J.D. Vance, couch potato, took the opportunity to criticize the Democratic Virginia's AG candidate who has a texting scandal of his own regarding political violence. That guy is terrible, but of course, J.D. Vance can't possibly just say sorry. Uh, Vance called the response to the Republican group texts pearl clutching in comparison. Uh, let's listen to a clip of him on The Charlie Kirk Show. He's gonna have a great job as a podcaster when he leaves office.

Guest 7:37 But the reality is that kids do stupid things, especially young boys. They tell edgy, offensive jokes. Like, that's what kids do. And I really don't want us to grow up in a country where a kid telling a stupid joke, telling a very offensive stupid joke, is cause to ruin their lives. And at some point, we're all g- all gonna have to say, "Enough of this BS."

Kara Swisher 7:59 I'll tell you who's enough of this BS, is, is J.D. Vance. Uh, some individuals exposed in the messages have been fired, and at least one Young Republican groups has been disbanded. Um, what... ? Think of this, 'cause it, uh, it really was over the top. And, you know, it's... We, we do... Uh, it's not cancel culture is back, but it was pretty horrible. Like, it was shock... I, I was even surprised. Maybe I shouldn't have been. What did you think?

Scott Galloway 8:22 Initially, uh, all else being equal, I sort of agree with J.D. Vance in the sense that-

Kara Swisher 8:29 Oh, no.

Scott Galloway 8:29 Well-

Kara Swisher 8:30 I'm gonna have to break up with you.

Scott Galloway 8:30 G- give me some time here, and then you can pose for the woke ring light.

Kara Swisher 8:32 Okay, okay. I'm not gonna p- Don't, don't always pull-

Scott Galloway 8:34 Don't bring that up.

Kara Swisher 8:36 ... woke. Don't always bring woke-

Scott Galloway 8:37 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 8:37 That's your excuse. When you're losing an argument, you say woke. But go ahead, move on.

Scott Galloway 8:40 Mm.

Kara Swisher 8:41 You do.

Scott Galloway 8:41 I don't know.

Kara Swisher 8:42 You do.

Scott Galloway 8:42 Uh, anyways. So, I empathize with the notion that we had the luxury of not having a digital world where every, every r- ridiculously offensive, stupid thing we did... I mean, the shit, th- the shit we did in college, I look back on and I cringe-

Kara Swisher 9:00 I get it.

Scott Galloway 9:00 And I... Thank God I wasn't involved. Now, having said that...

Kara Swisher 9:03 Can I just interject for people for a fact, Scott?

Scott Galloway 9:05 No, because you're, you're gonna steal my thunder and then-

Kara Swisher 9:08 Okay, go ahead.

Scott Galloway 9:08 Everyone's gonna come on and say, "Oh, can't go there."

Kara Swisher 9:11 (laughs) You're so...

Scott Galloway 9:11 Um, all right.

Kara Swisher 9:13 I know all your tricks.

Scott Galloway 9:14 One, these aren't children. Some of these, some of these people, specifically some of these men, are not even young men. Th- they're 31 and 35. Uh, two, he's the wrong messenger for this, because he's totally inconsistent. If this was a Democratic, Young Democratic chat, he would have ordered a gunship and fucking the Army Rangers to their homes. And, uh, this is the same group of people that says that a joke about, uh, Donald Trump, uh, talking about a ballroom when asked about Charlie Kirk is so offensive that it should be removed from the air. So, it's incredibly hypocritical and inconsistent for Vice President Vance to say anything about, "Come on, guys, it's just spee- it's just... You know, bros, frat kids are gonna be frat kids." And also, these are not children.

Kara Swisher 10:09 Or kids.

Scott Galloway 10:09 And when you look at what they said, uh, th- I don't like... There is a certain gotcha culture where the media goes crazy around calling people out. But the reality is when you read these texts, these young men or, or adults, these adult men, are about to learn a valuable life lesson, in that there is no context for which these types of conversations or statements are acceptable. And distinctive whether they're racist, bigoted, wha- whatever, homophobic, it, it should, it should logically, practically, from a common sense standpoint, hurt their careers because these, these people just lack so much common sense.

Kara Swisher 10:51 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:51 And they have such poor judgment-

Kara Swisher 10:53 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:54 ... to not only, uh, think these things but to put them down in a text chat.

Kara Swisher 10:58 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 10:58 So, look, uh, but again, for me, this all comes back to the same thing. Go with it because it's one more day we're not talking about Epstein.

Kara Swisher 11:06 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 11:07 I think in the-

Kara Swisher 11:07 Fair. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 11:07 ... the big picture, this really isn't... This is a pimple on the pimple of what's going on in this country.

Kara Swisher 11:12 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 11:12 It's a bunch of fucking idiots who shouldn't... who should have tr- trouble getting a job because this will come up in their Google searches. And it's a good life lesson for young people, especially young men, who are more risk aggressive and, and, and more, more prone to say really stupid shit. And I do believe... And I've said this about the campus protests. I'm less bothered by what a 19-year-old says, uh, at Cornell than I'm... by, by what some of the faculty have said tweeting and, and some of the statements they've issued. I think that they've had time to develop some critical thinking skills.

Kara Swisher 11:44 I agree. Uh, you have come... I, I have... Uh, you have come... Uh, you know, this is... W- what the kids say, I, I do give a wide berth to teenage, uh, teenagers. And also, that said, it, it, it was... Uh, this... These weren't just little jokes. It went on and on and on. And it's weird because-

Scott Galloway 11:58 It was really upsetting.

Kara Swisher 12:00 It was really upsetting. That's what... I was... Uh, two things came to me at once, is... I see your explanation here. But, um, is that it was, um... First of all, they were stupid.That's what-

Scott Galloway 12:10 Yeah, agreed.

Kara Swisher 12:11 ... that really struck me. And dumb, like this is what they think is funny. Um, two is the hypocrisy, as you noted, about making- Jimmy Kimmel making what was a funny joke, uh, because Trump said it, uh, versus this, like this ha-ha. But I do think it's a pervasive (sighs) feeling among these people. They really, like it's- it- it's so... I- I- I was, uh, that- that- the return of this, and maybe it went- never went away, was something... I would like it to go away again, but I guess they're thinking it, so. Maybe just to see it will just be clear of who these people are. I- I don't think they'll be punished at all, but JD Vance should step out of it, that's my feeling. Like, especially, because he would, he's the one that's always like, "You should be able to say what you want."

Scott Galloway 12:54 Oh, these kids will pay a pr-

Kara Swisher 12:55 Yeah, they'll pay a price for their-

Scott Galloway 12:57 The, uh, uh... Uh, look, uh, I won't even say kids.

Kara Swisher 13:01 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 13:01 Although they feel like kids, uh, when you're the- getting this old. The reality is, a- a- and folks this is a lesson to young people out there. I hate to say this, but a lot of times people will send an email saying, "I appreciate how provocative and how profane you are, I wanna be more bold," and I write back, "Don't."

Kara Swisher 13:17 Don't, yeah.

Scott Galloway 13:17 Or I write back and say, "Are you already rich?"

Kara Swisher 13:19 Hm.

Scott Galloway 13:20 Because if you're economically secure and have people who love you unconditionally, fine, you can take more license with the things you say and occasionally say something stupid and have people push back and it doesn't threaten your economic livelihood. But in this era, the reality is, if you go to work for JPMorgan or Goldman Sachs, they run a credit check on you now. You know what they also do?

Kara Swisher 13:37 Social media. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 13:37 They check your social media. What's gonna happen when these kids go on to wanna be, you know, g- uh, leave government and wanna go be, work at Lazard Frères or whatever, for a law firm or a lobbying firm? The first thing the HR director does is they do a Google search on you. What's gonna come up with these kids?

Kara Swisher 13:57 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 13:57 And this is what's gonna happen. They're never even gonna know why they didn't get an interview.

Kara Swisher 14:00 No, they'll know.

Scott Galloway 14:01 They're, because the HR person's gonna see, "Oh, this is a person making light of gas chambers-"

Kara Swisher 14:08 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 14:08 "... and using the N-word."

Kara Swisher 14:09 Right.

Scott Galloway 14:09 "Well, you know what? Maybe we should look at the other 99 (laughs) applicants we have."

Kara Swisher 14:13 Yeah, it's true. It's too much bother. And someone will come up with it, and someone will know who it was and everything else. But there is-

Scott Galloway 14:20 A- and for them if they'd- if they'd showed up with an AR-15 to the No Kings Rally, they- they would have found some Republican weirdos that wanna hire them.

Kara Swisher 14:27 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 14:28 Everyone's gonna run from this. There's nothing cool about this.

Kara Swisher 14:30 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 14:30 There's nothing provocative, there's nothing right wing. I think even-

Kara Swisher 14:33 I just don't understand why-

Scott Galloway 14:33 ... even most Republicans are horrified.

Kara Swisher 14:34 ... JD Vance went out on a limb, I guess, to create havoc, I suppose, with the Epstein thing.

Scott Galloway 14:37 Distraction.

Kara Swisher 14:38 And speaking of which, I- I- I urge everyone to read the excerpts from, uh, I think it's, uh, Virginia Guiffre, um, her- her- her, she's posthumously published a book about, uh, her, uh, experiences with Jeffrey Epstein, and it is, it- it's- it's beautifully written-

Scott Galloway 14:54 Yeah, I read it, you sent it.

Kara Swisher 14:56 ... FYI.

Scott Galloway 14:56 It's very upsetting.

Kara Swisher 14:56 Uh, but it's so, it's so plainly said, and- and I think it links to the way men, some men, think about women, right? Like, it was sort of she was making the bigger point that it wasn't just the sickness of Jeffrey Epstein, but that there were more people who th- who act like this, or feel like it's their privilege to talk about people and to, um... But everything rang true in that first exchange when she was a kid with her, and Ghislaine, Ghislaine Maxwell, and him. And if he, if, after reading that, if Trump lets her out, he really is culpable. I just don't know how else you could read anything close to that and not think that. I don't know. And there's been story after story.

Scott Galloway 15:37 The two things that struck me were, reading that article, because I'd- I'd- I'd heard most of it from other sources before, before. But the two things that struck me were, one, there is, supposedly there is research showing that pedophiles target kids who have an absent or what they perceive as a weak f- uh, male role model.

Kara Swisher 15:58 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:58 That they sum up the level of male involvement in that person's life and prey on people. And you can imagine, uh, children of single parents from low-income homes, uh, are just more likely to be victims, which is obviously very upsetting. The other thing that really struck me here, Kara, that I didn't know about, like, her dad introduced her at Mar-a-Lago.

Kara Swisher 16:22 Yeah, to Trump.

Scott Galloway 16:23 Like, I mean, yeah, folks, at what point, (laughs) at what point is there, there's just so much evidence-

Kara Swisher 16:29 Right.

Scott Galloway 16:29 ... around Epstein and Mar-a-Lago-

Kara Swisher 16:32 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 16:32 ... and Trump, it's like, "Wait, they met? This whole thing started at Mar-a-Lago?"

Kara Swisher 16:38 Yeah. Yeah, it did, yeah.

Scott Galloway 16:40 It, it, I didn't know that.

Kara Swisher 16:41 You didn't know that, remember? Because that's why Trump said he kicked, uh, Epstein out, because he- he poached him.

Scott Galloway 16:46 No, he was stealing employees.

Kara Swisher 16:47 "He took one of my things."

Scott Galloway 16:47 Not because he was, not because he was a convicted pedophile, but because he was stealing his employees.

Kara Swisher 16:50 And remember he had that sentence where it looked like he owned her, like, "He took one of my things." Like, I don't... Anyway, it, the whole thing, you- you must read it, because it's very so plainly written and everything rings true, I have to say, especially about their, that encounter, the way he talked to her, the way they tried to flirt. And Ghislaine Maxwell, I mean, Epstein is dead, and don't rest in peace, but boy is she's a monster, the- the same, in the same manner. Like, grotesque, and should never be let out of prison, and should be thrown into a deeper prison, as far as I'm concerned.

Scott Galloway 17:23 It's already happened.

Kara Swisher 17:24 It's true.

Scott Galloway 17:24 The fix is already in.

Kara Swisher 17:25 Yeah. We'll see.

Scott Galloway 17:26 He sent his personal lawyer down to interview her. That never happens. And then what do you know? She's transferred to a lower, uh, a more pleasant prison.

Kara Swisher 17:33 He cannot give-

Scott Galloway 17:33 The fix is already in.

Kara Swisher 17:34 ... her a pardon. He cannot give her a pardon. He can't.

Scott Galloway 17:36 I- Kara, every time we've said that, we have found out that, in fact, he can.

Kara Swisher 17:41 This is like the-

Scott Galloway 17:41 And-

Kara Swisher 17:41 ... feels like the third rail. Anyway.

Scott Galloway 17:43 It's already been-

Kara Swisher 17:44 We'll see.

Scott Galloway 17:44 ... the wheels are, the wheels are already in motion. All of a sudden, she's at a- a more amenable, more comfortable prison.

Kara Swisher 17:51 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 17:51 Total violation of all decorum around justice where a lawyer went down to interview her, and now, uh, this is, the fix is in. I think it's already, I think it's already happened. If it-

Kara Swisher 18:01 Well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you one thing. If she does get out, people should, like OJ, she should lead a restless life where she never gets a moment's peace, I have to say. What she did to these young girls is repulsive and, uh, and, uh, she's a monster. She's an e- she's a... I never think, say the word "evil" about people, but she's evil and so was he. Anyway, I- I recommend you reading it. And it's sad, uh, Virginia, um-... committed suicide, by the way, before this book came out.

Scott Galloway 18:26 She was in a terrible car accident, wasn't she? Or, wasn't she-

Kara Swisher 18:29 Yeah. It's, it's kind of unclear what happened, but ultimately it l- sounds, uh, her life sounds. Th- she was a vulnerable young woman who had-

Scott Galloway 18:37 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 18:37 ... a history of, um, sexual abuse, and then she was a perfect, uh, mark for these two terrible predators. Anyway, um, speaking of which,

Kara Swisher 18:45 California Governor Gavin Newsom vetoed a bill this week would have banned minors from using AI chatbots. His reason, the bill's restrictions were too broad. Uh, I would agree. He did sign another AI safety bill requiring chatbots to tell users they're AI and reminding minors every three hours to take breaks. OpenAI called the bill a meaningful move forward for AI safety standards, though CEO Sam Altman also just revealed that OpenAI will allow verified use adults to access erotica on ChatGPT in December. Um, it's w- and I'm not sure if these are related, but they feel like they are. Um, the first bill, uh, I, I, I know it was pushed by a lot of different groups, but it was broad because it, it seemed like it wa- is it attacking older people too, and it felt like, um, we have to really specifically carve out minors here, um, in a way. Um, I think it's harder to try to ban regular people from having, uh, older people, excuse me, from having, um, relationships with chatbots, as weird as they may be and how, even if they lead to bad outcomes as many of them have. Um, I don't, I think we, uh, I don't know what to say about the, the erotica. Do you, do you thi- what do you think about what is and isn't getting regulated and, and the erotica thing? Um, Sam Altman later said, "Eh, OpenAI was not the elected moral police of the world." I, I didn't think they were, but okay. Uh, what do you, what do you think?

Scott Galloway 20:02 (sighs) Look, I don't... You know... Oh God. So, uh-

Kara Swisher 20:09 No, you're trying really hard not to make a joke.

Scott Galloway 20:10 Well, no (laughs) . No, I'm not. I wrot- I'm writing this book on masculinity. And I think one of the things that kills masculinity is an overindulgence in porn because I think key to success-

Kara Swisher 20:20 Yeah, you talk about that.

Scott Galloway 20:21 ... and one of, and one of the important things and one of the wonderful things about being a man is that we're more risk aggressive. Now, sometimes that results in reckless behavior, but sometimes it also results in valor and, and wonderful things can happen. When you apply for a job you're not qualified for, when you start a business that makes no sense and ends up being crazy genius, when you approach a woman and take, uh, the risk of rejection, it can lead to wonderful places. The problem with porn, I find among young men, is that an overconsumption of porn reduces their mojo to take risks and establish relationships that might lead to romantic relationships. And that is, we have demonized and pathologized sexual desire among young men. And the reality is it's like fire. It can lead to bad places. It can lead to objectifying women. It can lead to inappropriate behavior. But for the most part, it's the fire that goes into an engine that creates a better you or desire for a better you.

Kara Swisher 21:14 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 21:14 I wanna look better. I wanna look be- I wanna work out. I wanna smell nice. I wanna groom. I wanna have a plan. I wanna dress well. I wanna take risks. I wanna demonstrate kindness.

Kara Swisher 21:24 Definitely.

Scott Galloway 21:25 So the idea of a combination of erotic content with the character AI and synthetic relationship capabilities of these companies I think is a fucking disaster. Because the first time a 14-year-old male gets shunned by a 14-year-old girl, which is part of growing up because women have a much finer filter for mating opportunities 'cause the downside of sex is so much greater. Uh, I mean, if you want, if you're a dude and you wanna have women in your life and you want romantic opportunities, that involves one thing, rejection and hopefully resilience. And what I worry about is the first signs of rejection, a 14-year-old, a 15-year-old, a 16-year-old, uh, boy starts turning to this awesome synthetic AI that looks like the hottest girl you've ever met, who will tease you just enough, and then-

Kara Swisher 22:16 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 22:17 ... and then start showing you private parts and then let you engage-

Kara Swisher 22:21 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 22:21 ... in a series of erotic synthetic experiences that are low friction, low risk, and quite frankly just reduce the fire.

Kara Swisher 22:29 Y- y- you, can I just, uh, you, you used a word there, which again, that the people at Silicon Valley use all the time, which is seamless, frictionless. They don't like friction. Like, th- and the problem is-

Scott Galloway 22:38 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 22:38 ... I, I've done a bunch of interviews about this lately. And what's interesting is, um, the friction part, like, uh, and it goes the other way. Women would like men more attentive, more they could make their own characters, right? It's not gonna be-

Scott Galloway 22:50 And they are.

Kara Swisher 22:50 ... just-

Scott Galloway 22:51 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 22:51 ... you know? And then you have a, you know, a frictionless relationship, which I think is useless on some, I mean, it can be entertaining for a second. But once you get used to that, anyone in real life is inc- incredibly problematic, right, for you because you're used to this sort of seamless, frictionless life. Sex is friction, of course, you know, physically. Um, but it really does, um... Uh, I, you can't... The thing is you can't really stop them from doing it, right? He's right. He's not the moral police. Nope. By, I don't, by the way, that's kind of a straw man. No one thought OpenAI was the w- world's police, moral police. Fine, he can say that. Um, but, uh, but more to the point, it just makes this ease of, of easing us into these relationships of course will help his bottom line because this is the kind of thing you stay on there. Even early chat, if you remember early chat groups were incredibly addictive just between and among different people, especially... I had a chapter in my AOL book called The House, The House That, Uh, Online Porn Built 'cause that's where it really got going is online porn early, in the early internet phase. This is just a quantum leap, I think.

Scott Galloway 24:00 Well, there's basically three ways to make money on the internet. There's ads, there's e-commerce, and there's porn.

Kara Swisher 24:06 Right.

Scott Galloway 24:07 And the problem or one of the issues with porn is that there's very little peer review research 'cause the majority of academics don't wanna be known as the porn professor.

Kara Swisher 24:15 Right. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 24:16 And so, but just some basic-

Kara Swisher 24:17 There's an opening for you, Scott. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 24:19 Yeah, there you go. Um-I'm not gonna touch that one, so-

Kara Swisher 24:23 (laughs) Don't touch anything. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 24:25 Look, 68 million search queries related to pornography, w- and now get this, a quarter of all searches-

Kara Swisher 24:32 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 24:32 ... are related to pornography.

Kara Swisher 24:34 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 24:34 Every day, a quarter of the searches-

Kara Swisher 24:35 I'm not surprised.

Scott Galloway 24:35 ... which gives you a sense of how big this business is. One, uh, analyst found that porn generates roughly 10% of the comments on Reddit, 13% of X's not safe for work content.

Kara Swisher 24:46 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 24:46 Tumblr, which was a porn site, and they, they, uh, uh, and I said it was-

Kara Swisher 24:51 Not by young.

Scott Galloway 24:52 ... a porn site. They spent 1.1 billion, Marissa Mayer spent $1.1 billion for a porn site. And then the, I forget his name, the venture capitalist with the weird haircut from Union Square Ventures got angry at me and said, "Tumblr's amazing," da, da, da-

Kara Swisher 25:05 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 25:05 ... after he had sold all his stock. And then they announced under pressure they were doing away with porn, and in 60 days their traffic dropped by 30%.

Kara Swisher 25:13 Yeah. That was the porn site.

Scott Galloway 25:14 And then that $1.1 billion, that $1.1 billion (laughs) acquisition-

Kara Swisher 25:18 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 25:18 ... it was sold for, I think, $3 million seven years later.

Kara Swisher 25:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 25:21 Porn is enormous online, and when you have, when you have young men being pathologized, getting mixed signals around what's th- what's usually, what used to be considered romantic is now creepy, and they have access to 20... I mean, I'll, um, just to personalize this, I barely graduated from UCLA, barely. I had graduated with a 2.27 GPA. And one of the reasons I went to 60, 70% of my classes, not 10%, and didn't fail out, is I wanted to go on to UCLA and see my buddies and see friends, and quite frankly, be around a disproportionate amount of ridiculously hot women who I might get to know and at some point might have a relationship with. It was very motivating. And if I had had on demand-

Kara Swisher 26:06 You would've been gone.

Scott Galloway 26:07 ... synthetic, lifelike porn-

Kara Swisher 26:10 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:10 ... I mean, how many men, what percentage of men are just not gonna engage?

Kara Swisher 26:15 Y- uh, you know what? I, I-

Scott Galloway 26:15 They're just gonna be-

Kara Swisher 26:16 This is not an insult, but I could see you falling way down that rabbit hole. You're, you're a lot-

Scott Galloway 26:20 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 26:20 ... shier also than people realize. And, uh, y- you're, you, you know, I think having difficult things happen to you hits hard for someone like, like you. But then you do it and it makes you a better per- you know what I mean? You have-

Scott Galloway 26:34 That's the whole, that's the whole-

Kara Swisher 26:36 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:36 ... shooting match. The best things in our life, the best things in our life, whether it's getting a great job, whether it's finding a romantic partner who you're just crazy about, whether it's getting the opportunity to have your own sex, whether it's having the opportunity to give birth to a child, whether it's having the opportunity to create a loving household that's economically secure, all of those things involve one thing, they're really fucking hard with a ton of rejection, a ton of friction, a ton of dealing with the messiest, most difficult thing in history, other people. And these synthetic relationships are just constantly reinforcing, constantly making it easier. And if you're gonna have... I used to sneak into my father's garage and look at his old Playboys. If all of a sudden that thing comes to l- that woman comes to life-

Kara Swisher 27:22 Yeah.

Narrator 27:22 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 27:22 ... and starts understanding me and talking about me and teasing me and doing sexual acts-

Kara Swisher 27:27 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 27:27 ... on demand-

Kara Swisher 27:28 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 27:29 ... uh, this is just headed nowhere good.

Kara Swisher 27:31 No, you know, he-

Scott Galloway 27:32 Nowhere and-

Kara Swisher 27:32 Interestingly, I had a synthetic version of me for this thing made, and it, it disturbed me in every way because it got better by the second. It was, that was what was f- disturbing to me. It's not quite there yet, um, and I'm gonna leave it to you in my will. But, um-

Scott Galloway 27:50 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 27:50 ... but the, i- i- it, it, it is-

Scott Galloway 27:51 Just to give me a hard time.

Kara Swisher 27:52 (laughs) I know. Um, it's really, um... L- let me go to the bot-

Scott Galloway 27:57 Text me late at night, "You should apologize." (laughs)

Kara Swisher 27:59 Uh, it's gonna, it's a 3D, my friend.

Scott Galloway 28:01 Text me at 2:00 in the morning.

Kara Swisher 28:02 I'm not gonna text. You're gonna see the bo-

Scott Galloway 28:04 Oh, God.

Kara Swisher 28:04 ... the moving body of Kara Swisher. Um, i- y- you, you, the thing is, you, you, you, you would, you and people like you would move into this so quickly, and the key is that OpenAI, let me say, besides all the other statements Dan made, this is for money. They wanna, this, they've gotta find revenue streams, and this is e- this is the, the mother lode of them all.

Scott Galloway 28:26 It's a big business.

Kara Swisher 28:27 This is what it is.

Scott Galloway 28:28 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 28:28 That's why they're, they're not elec- they were not elected the moral police, but they were elected to have to make money on this stuff. And this is, this will, is a killer app and it will bleed to our children. It will bleed... They will not be able to keep children safe in this. Anyway, let me just add one other thing. Uh, Newsom has also signed a bill mandating health label warnings, speaking of which, like the R thing or something on a cigarette.

Kara Swisher 28:51 This comes as Instagram just announced new protections for teens limiting what they can see based on PG movies. The platform says it will hide, uh, content with strong language, risky stunts, and marijuana use from teen users. Oh, no, not the, not, not the demon weed. Restrictions will also apply to AI bots. The updates follow recent reports questioning whether Instagram's existing teen account safeguards actually work. So they de- decried the people who said they don't, these reports, but then they, of course, do something. They, the point I wanna make here is they don't think of it first. They should think of it first before these reports come out, and nothing's gonna be perfect, by the way. I don't expect perfection. But they really are so sloppy i- in how they do, do this. And then they're gonna act like a PG-13 rating is the same thing, because this is immersive. This isn't a movie theater down the street. This is something much different, um, i- that's very hard to keep your teens out of, right? I mean, Scott, you, this is what your book's about, right? This is, this is one of these way stations that young men are gonna go through, young teenagers, and it's not, they're not coming out good on the other side of this eh- 'cause we slap a label on it. But I don't mind there being a label.

Scott Galloway 30:04 When I was, I think I was 13, I was with my best buddy, Adam Markman, and we lived in walking distance from Westwood Village, which by the way is a shadow of itself right now. But we used to, we used to have friends who were ushers at all the theaters, The National, The Man- The Bruin, the Westwood Village Theater, and we'd go, and we'd try and get eye contact with one of our friends who was an usher, and he'd like leave a door open and we'd sneak in and, and watch movies. And one day we took a wrong turn, and at the age of 13, we, we-... t- stumbled into, s- fell into William Blatty's The Exorcist. I could not, in the morning, I would have to put on my socks in the corner to make sure that the devil wasn't coming for, I, I couldn't, I slept on the floor at the foot of my mother's bed for two weeks. And no third-

Kara Swisher 30:53 Sky high and I'm coming for ya. (laughs) Just kidding.

Scott Galloway 30:55 No 13-year-old, Max von Sydow-

Kara Swisher 30:59 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 30:59 ... Linda Blair's cinematic peak, obviously-

Kara Swisher 31:01 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 31:01 Ellen Burstyn-

Kara Swisher 31:02 Yeah, she is.

Scott Galloway 31:02 ... a hugely underrated actress.

Kara Swisher 31:03 I love her.

Scott Galloway 31:05 Um, anyways, uh, uh, a 13-year-old should not see The Exorcist.

Kara Swisher 31:10 No.

Scott Galloway 31:11 The movies had it right. There's certain content, and I believe technologies, that young people should not be exposed to as their brain is wired. And one of those things, we've decided, is pornography. And Sam Altman saying, "We shouldn't be the morality police," no, no, actually you should. You should have standards. And that is no one under the age of 18 should, in any way, be allowed to engage with a synthetic relationship, and two, you need to age-gate pornography.

Kara Swisher 31:39 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 31:40 It, it, it, everybody else does this.

Kara Swisher 31:43 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 31:43 Why are you different? And because you can do it better or because there's more money involved?

Kara Swisher 31:48 They don't do it better. And it's harder 'cause it's so pernicious. It's not like a movie theater, 'cause you have to f- like you said, you physically went to Westwood, went into the movie. And listen, every parent has an example of this. Like, my movie that I shouldn't have seen was Tales from the Crypt, right? I shouldn't have snuck into that movie and I did. And, and, uh, and w- like, one, and for Alex, uh, he snuck around the corner while Louie and I were watching Ted. And I, that, that wasn't quite that, but it was just dirty. And I, I wish he had been older, and I wish I had been a better parent in that regard. And with Louie, uh, going to Sausage Party with him, mistake, right? But this...

Scott Galloway 32:24 You felt that, yeah.

Kara Swisher 32:25 Oh man, I didn't think that f- that was gonna have sex. But anyway, it was, he, literally in the middle, right as they started to do that, I have to say, Louie turned to me and said, "Good parenting." And I go, "I wanna kill myself." (laughs) Like, it's like so bad. And then we were like, "Shall we leave?" And he goes, "No, let's just sit here quietly and not look." Anyway, it was terrible.

Scott Galloway 32:43 Well, you know, you know that there are actually, there's a sequel coming out to The Exorcist, but it's, it's a different twist. This time it's the devil trying to get the priest out of the child.

Kara Swisher 32:52 (laughs) Oh, god.

Scott Galloway 32:55 That's good.

Kara Swisher 32:56 It isn't good. So what-

Scott Galloway 32:56 That's good.

Kara Swisher 32:57 So tell me what you think with, uh, what's gonna, uh, very briefly, um, uh, uh, what do you think's gonna happen?

Scott Galloway 33:05 I know what's gonna happen. Uh, Governor Newsom is trying to thread the needle between being responsible and responding to parents' concerns, but at the same time, he's running for president.

Kara Swisher 33:14 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 33:14 And the last fucking thing he wants right now-

Kara Swisher 33:16 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 33:16 ... is for the most successful companies that have been responsible for California surpassing Japan in terms of the size of its economy, that has been 70% of the gains in the S&P, which will be a fantastic talking point for him at a debate, the last thing he can do is piss off these guys enough such that they start moving to Texas.

Kara Swisher 33:34 Right.

Scott Galloway 33:34 So he's, he's caught between what a leader is supposed to do, and that is protect people from a tragedy of the commons, but at the same time acknowledging that the thing that, the thing that Governor Newsom has going for him right now is the most, the people with the most options in the world, the companies with the most options in the world creating the most value, all choose to hang out and headquarter in one place, and that's California.

Kara Swisher 33:56 Yeah, they do.

Scott Galloway 33:57 So it is very difficult for him. He can't have Sam Altman go, "Because of onerous regulation at the hands of our governor, we're considering relocating to, you know, Nashville or Austin." So he has to wa- fi- walk a very fine line here. But the, again, that's a lot of blah-blah, a lot of hand moving. It's, uh, uh, the illusion of complexity is being weaponized again. No one under the age of 18... There should be age gating. No one under the age of 16 should be on a social media platform. No one under the age of 18 should be subjected to pornographic content. No one under the age of 18 should, in any way, be able to engage in a synthetic relationship. They could figure out all this shit.

Kara Swisher 34:35 I think he's on safe ground-

Scott Galloway 34:36 Instead they have comp-

Kara Swisher 34:36 ... with that. I think they're so much bipartisan. I think the, the companies are gonna have to give up on having everything.

Scott Galloway 34:41 You think they could do that? They should do that.

Kara Swisher 34:43 They should, could, and will-

Scott Galloway 34:44 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 34:44 ... eventually have to. Like, I don't think it will go, uh, I think e- they will not, uh, on this one, they don't get what they want. And I think, uh, Newsom's, that bill he vetoed was far too broad. I, uh, I, when I saw it I was like, "No, this is gonna," they just, I was like, "Can't you just stop at what we actually need?" Like, we don't need to protect everybody. We need to protect kids. Like, that's what drove me crazy about that bill. I thought he would veto it, um, and he did. All right, we have to, we have to go on though. Uh, but we'll see what happens.

Scott Galloway 35:12 Well, just one more.

Kara Swisher 35:12 Go ahead, go ahead.

Scott Galloway 35:13 O- One more footnote just on The Exorcist.

Kara Swisher 35:15 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 35:15 I actually-

Kara Swisher 35:16 Still with you?

Scott Galloway 35:17 After I saw The Exorcist- (laughs)

Kara Swisher 35:19 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 35:19 You can hear it coming.

Kara Swisher 35:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 35:20 You could feel it coming.

Kara Swisher 35:21 Okay.

Scott Galloway 35:22 But what happened was I was, uh, we couldn't m- you know, my mom and I didn't have much money and we couldn't-

Kara Swisher 35:28 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 35:28 ... pay for our Exorcist so, uh-

Kara Swisher 35:31 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 35:31 ... I got repossessed.

Kara Swisher 35:33 (laughs) Oh.

Scott Galloway 35:35 That's good bad credit humor.

Kara Swisher 35:36 You know, on our tour-

Scott Galloway 35:37 That's good bad credit humor.

Kara Swisher 35:37 ... we should watch The Exorcist together.

Scott Galloway 35:40 Oh god.

Kara Swisher 35:41 All right.

Scott Galloway 35:41 I can't, I li- I don't watch scary movies. I can't handle-

Kara Swisher 35:44 I don't either.

Scott Galloway 35:44 ... scary movies.

Kara Swisher 35:44 I don't either. Oh, I thought, I watched The Accountant too, uh, uh, recently. I liked it a lot.

Scott Galloway 35:48 You know, now after watching Wizard of the Oz growing up, whenever I climax I scream, "Surrender, Dorothy!"

Kara Swisher 35:53 Oh my god. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 35:54 "Surrender!"

Kara Swisher 35:55 I feel so bad for your wife. I just wanna say that, uh, as many times as I can.

Scott Galloway 35:59 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 35:59 Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Meta caves to Pam Bondi and the DOJ, another hypocrisy. Support for Pivot comes from Quince. Now that you've entered the sweatpant season, here is something you need to know. Quince's warm, durable, and comfy clothes are here to carry you through the season. Quince has the kind of fall staples that I actually wanna wear on repeat. Think $50 Mongolian cashmere, premier denim that fits like a dream, and luxe outerwear you can wear year after year. These are the pieces that'll turn into your fall uniform. And because Quince partners directly with top tier factories and cuts out the middleman, they deliver luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands. I've talked about Quince before, but you need to hear it from me again because I really like it. I'm wearing Quince clothes right now. I'm wearing a sports bra and soft pants that are very comfortable. They're actually great texture. They wear well. They're comfortable. They wash well. Um, and I, I wear them every day. Find your fall staples at Quince. Go to quince.com/pivot for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com/pivot to get free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com/pivot.Support for the show comes from Framer. If you run a business, you probably need a website and if you need a website, you probably want a good one. Now most design tools are pay-walled, but not Framer. With Framer, you get a full-featured professional design experience completely free. Framer, already built the fastest way to publish beautiful production-ready websites, and it's now redefining how we design for the web. With the recent launch of Design Pages, a free canvas-based design tool, Framer is more than a site builder. It's a true all-in-one design platform. From social assets to campaign visuals, to vectors and icons, all the way to a live site, Framer is where ideas go live, start to finish. Framer even helps you design more than websites. Create social access, campaign visuals, icons, and even site resources all in one place. Ready to design, iterate, and publish all in one tool? Start creating for free at framer.com/design and use the code PIVOT for a free month of Framer Pro. That's framer.com/design and use promo code PIVOT. Framer.com/design, promo code PIVOT. Rules and restrictions may apply. Scott, we're back. Meta has

Kara Swisher 38:23 taken down a Facebook page that was sharing information about ICE agents in Chicago after, quote, "Outreach from the Justice Department," as Attorney General Pam Bondi put it. Meta said the page was, quote, "Removed for violating our policies against coordinated harm." This follows Apple and Google's ICE remov- removing ICE tracking apps as we discussed last week. Remember, Republicans were slamming tech companies for bowing to government pressure during the last administration, even taking the case to the Supreme Court. He also, you know, and, and complained about and Mark Zuckerberg has been vocal in the last year about social media censorship going far under, uh, going too far under Biden. Let's listen to what he told Joe Rogan back in January.

Guest 38:59 The government is not allowed to-

Kara Swisher 39:01 Infringe.

Guest 39:01 ... censor this stuff. So, it, it, some level, I do think that, you know, having people in the administration calling up the guys on our team and yelling at them and cursing and threatening repercussions if we don't take down things that are true is like, uh, it's pretty bad.

Kara Swisher 39:18 It sounds illegal. Oh my God, he's such a hypocrite, like literally. No one cursed and threatened him and also, he, he's not, it's impossible to threaten him, and secondly, w- what is Pam nicer about it? It's the same thing, and it's the same thing Republicans complained about, and then it's the same thing they're doing. Every accusation is a confession with these people at every moment of the time. I mean, uh, and, and they cave to these Republicans and, of course, you know, possibly cage the Democrats 'cause they're not yelling quite enough, or not nice enough to them. I don't know. What did you think? This was just, ugh, of course. Of course.

Scott Galloway 39:56 (sighs) I'm sensitive or empathetic to the notion that if the government... I think our tech platforms should cooperate with the government.

Kara Swisher 40:03 Yes, me too.

Scott Galloway 40:04 And, uh, but, but at the same time, I, I find of, of all the ugliness, I think I'm, uh, I'm, the thing that used to bother me the most was just the out of con- control corruption around this crypto stuff. Uh, I think that has been bested by the fact that we have a secret police essentially terrorizing, uh, Americans. Because it's not only, it's not only the, the, the terror and the trauma these people have to go through. What it says is, is that America is devoting its energy to, uh, fascism, which is believing that the enemy is within, and it's just a false flag. It's just, it, it, we're not that divided, but we have the most powerful companies at the behest of the president dividing us.

Kara Swisher 40:52 Well, talk about the IRS thing.

Scott Galloway 40:53 And I s-

Kara Swisher 40:54 The, 'cause you mentioned that, the Scott Bessant, that they're gonna investiga- use it to investigate, um, people. You made a joke at the top, but it's in this wheelhouse, correct?

Scott Galloway 41:03 It's, this is an autocracy. Reward your, the, the, Putin has nothing on Trump. Reward your allies, carve up TikTok, give it to your, your Republican donors, give somebody a tip that you're about to announce ridiculous tariffs again last Friday on China, and this person goes out, buys, uh, several hundred million dollars notionally in, in, in puts against the crypto market, and by the way, closes out the trade at $120 million gain later that day. Again, unless somebody knew that what was coming here, this was the luckiest trade in history.

Kara Swisher 41:39 Right.

Scott Galloway 41:40 Reward your allies and punish your enemies. And at some point, you and me are gonna end up on some list, and the IRS is gonna come for us.

Kara Swisher 41:47 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 41:48 And when the IRS comes for you, even if you've done nothing wrong, if they're aggressive enough, you're just gonna have to pay a lot of money, it's gonna send a chill, and you're gonna decide, oh, maybe on our podcast, we shouldn't speak, we shouldn't be so negative on Trump or whatever.

Kara Swisher 42:03 Yeah. That's the point.

Scott Galloway 42:03 This is, you don't weaponize... Americans pay for these institutions. The IRS is there to make sure that people pay their taxes. By the way, if you wanna solve or go a long way to solving the deficit, you would increase funding to the IRS 'cause supposedly about $780 billion a year is called the tax gap, which means taxes that are owed that go unpaid, because the Republicans, and this is very deft, they have said rather than, the, the, the biggest tax cut in history is the defunding of the IRS. Because wealthy people have exceptionally complicated tax returns and to audit a wealthy person takes professionals and time and resources, which the IRS no longer has. So, the tax rates are just symbolic because very, very wealthy people with complicated tax returns can be so aggressive now on their taxes because they are, in fact, confident that the IRS doesn't have the resources to come for them, and now he's saying, "I'll weaponize it against my enemies."

Kara Swisher 43:01 Right.

Scott Galloway 43:01 And the IRS will-

Kara Swisher 43:02 It's such a waste. It's...

Scott Galloway 43:04 I mean, it happened at the DOJ. It's gonna, why wouldn't it happen at the IRS?

Kara Swisher 43:07 Yeah. I feel like-

Scott Galloway 43:07 It's happened at the DOJ.

Kara Swisher 43:08 ... like, the FBI should be investigating, like, the, th- th- there's been a lot of stories about how the FBI is like, "We're not doing real crimes, we're just doing what Trump thinks are crimes," or immigration or w- all the resources are going... Same thing here with the IRS. Instead of collecting taxes we are lawfully owed, this is what they're gonna spend their time doing 'cause they, they're gonna know where their bread is buttered. The other part is that these laws against-... e- e- officials, executive officials, including the president, were passed after Nixon tried to do this. So he's trying-

Scott Galloway 43:38 That's right.

Kara Swisher 43:38 ... to break those up. And they are very explicit, very, um, a lot of... I'm just gonna say, Scott Besson, you better lawyer up if Democrat... Because what you're doing here is suggesting, uh, using the IRS as, as a tool of retribution. There are very clear laws that they're gonna... They, they may run over them right now, but they're not gonna outrun these things. Um, and, and so, uh, I don't believe they will. And so, not just... Trump is also liable here for this if, if, if Democrats... The problem is if Democrats get in power, they're gonna spend all their time rounding up the criminals, right? And with... But how does that help our country in any way? And at some point, they'll have to let some of these-

Scott Galloway 44:18 I, I, I do think there needs-

Kara Swisher 44:20 ... terrible people go.

Scott Galloway 44:21 I don't know, I do think there needs to be something along the lines of like a Nuremberg trial. There needs to be... I think the only way we move past this is with some sort of reckoning. And I actually believe the Democrats should be outlining the specific laws, the specific hearings-

Kara Swisher 44:34 The violations.

Scott Galloway 44:35 ... the specific subpoenas that they are gonna pursue because to just sort of say, "Well, it's time to move on and come together-"

Kara Swisher 44:42 Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 44:42 ... there needs to be moral clarity around what's going on here because-

Kara Swisher 44:46 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 44:46 ... just, uh, uh, the DOJ being weaponized is the most serious of all of it. But in terms of IRS, what that means is a tax increase for lower middle income homes and all Democrats because if you're a famous Republican donor, you're telling your tax people right now, "Just go so far, so aggressive-"

Kara Swisher 45:05 Tell me.

Scott Galloway 45:05 "... don't pay this."

Kara Swisher 45:06 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 45:07 "Claim, claim a $200 million deduction on your plane, even though it costs 60 million." "Yeah, well, that's not true." "Just, just go for it. And by the way, I don't think I'll be audited." Now, what does that mean? The government has to collect at least $5 trillion a year to just fund their current commitments. They're gonna have to get that money from somewhere. So if really wealthy people or people in the president's stead, which happen to be billionaire Republicans who are paying a disproportionate... I mean, they're a key part of the tax code. There's this notion that the rich don't pay taxes. No, the rich, the top... Probably the top 10% pay about 80% of federal taxes. Are they, as a percentage of their wealth, paying their fair share? I think that's up for real debate. But in terms of a gross dollar amount, because they make so much m- more money than anyone, they're a huge part of the tax base. And if you decide to start letting them off the hook, you're gonna have to get other people to pay disproportionately more. So him weaponizing the IRS is not only unjust, it's effectively a tax increase for non-Democratic billionaires and it's a tax decrease for, for Republican billionaires.

Kara Swisher 46:13 Right. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 46:13 And people just don't connect the dots here.

Kara Swisher 46:15 Yeah. No. I... You know, what... You know what dot you connected the ideas around, um, he wouldn't be able to do what he's doing without the AI boom? I thought that was really smart. Also, Amanda even said things. She goes, "I hadn't thought of that." Sometimes Scott comes out with the most obvious connections.

Scott Galloway 46:30 It's just-

Kara Swisher 46:30 That's the same way with this.

Scott Galloway 46:31 ... pure probability and luck at some point.

Kara Swisher 46:33 No, it's not. I'm just saying it's a similar connection. It's like that's what's happening here. But let me tell you, uh, you know, it's, it, it's gonna come back to bite you. I really feel it will and probably should. Um, speaking of someone that needs to be bitten, Salesforce

Kara Swisher 46:46 CEO Marc Benioff appears to be sort of walking back his recent comments in New York Times where he called for President Trump to send National Guard troops to San Francisco. Benioff tried to clarify his remarks in a post on X saying safety is, quote, "First and foremost, the responsibility of our city and state leaders." He also pointed out correctly that crime in San Francisco is down 30%. Still, he told The Times that the city needs to refund police, even though San Francisco never actually defunded its police force, and it has been doing that. Um, I gotta say, uh, you know, Eve, I have a lot to say about this. There is a thing I sent you from Garry Tan, who irritates me on the, on the regular, but he said the same thing. This is... It's all moving in the right direction, there's all kinds of great statistics of what's happening in San Francisco. And for Marc to weigh in like this, uh, and then saying we have to be nice to him because he gives a lot of money away. Like, you give the money away and shut up, Marc. I'm sorry. If you wanna be charitable, like MacKenzie Bezos, keep your mouth shut about it. You don't need to be thanked and you don't get a pass over, uh, saying something like this, to bring in poli- uh, the, the National Guard to San Francisco. He never is there. And I, and I know a little bit about what happened in here, is he probably... He went so- He was in downtown San Francisco for two seconds, was in a bad part of it, saw some homeless, and then compared it to Washington. He was in a very nice part of Washington and was like, "See what happens when the National Guard comes in?" But what he doesn't know is Washington was like that before he got there, and he was in a bad part of San Francisco. There's no question San Francisco had a real downturn, but it is on the upturn from the work for people like London Breed and now Daniel Lurie, um, who's the mayor. They're trying really hard. And for San Francisco's biggest booster to do a heel turn like this because he wants to be part of the Trump cri- crime family, I, I just... Uh, and by the way, all of those tech bros who were with Trump make fun of him relentlessly, which is... He should know this. Um, and I know he needs to make money and he wants to get in on the gimmies and he wants to be at those dinners. But Marc, this is... (sighs) I couldn't... It, it's, it's not really shocking, but it's also gross is what it is. I, I don't know what else to say. You may have a different opinion, but I don't think you should... This person who's been one of San Francisco's biggest boar- this should be the thing he said. And the last thing, from what I understand, is he did a more problematic interview with another group, um, and he also tagged Mike Moritz, the San Francisco Standard, which I think is doing a great job in San Francisco reporting. Um, and, and Mike Moritz is another venture capitalist who owns... Who's created that publication, which is e- as I said, an excellent publication. But, um, you know, I think that he had a difficult interview with them, and then he turned to the New York Times. And even his, apparently his PR person was like jaw dropping that he did this. I...I like Mark. I, I, I was sh- I was su- I wasn't surprised by it, but it's really incredibly unhelpful, and for you to act like a victim and then demand fealty because you give money away? I'd rather you not give the money away and keep your mouth shut. I don't know what else to say. What do you think?

Scott Galloway 49:54 I think you have more... I mean, you know Mark better than me and you know San Francisco better than me. Um, but, uh, (sighs) the way I see it is, simply put, I think Mark's a good guy who's very civic-minded. I think he gives money away 'cause he's genuinely a philanthropic person and recognizes-

Kara Swisher 50:09 Sure.

Scott Galloway 50:09 ... his blessings. And he said something really fucking stupid. I mean, uh, uh, and if I were advising him, and I'm not, uh, and actually, I, I, may, you know what, I may text him. Just say, "I said something stupid. I apologize," and maybe add a little context because, yeah, I don't think it's... I, I think it's, it's a shame because I do think Mark has made a real effort to acknowledge his blessings and be really civic-minded. I've heard a lot of people say that when they can't find resources anywhere, they call Mark, and Mark is an automatic yes. And, uh, he goes out of his way. I, I just, I, I, I just think he's a good man. (laughs) He said something stupid here that is not accurate, and when you get that rich, you can get into a bubble, and maybe he had a bad experience in San Francisco. There are a lot of areas-

Kara Swisher 50:57 Yep.

Scott Galloway 50:57 ... to my understanding is in San Francisco that feel like a war zone.

Kara Swisher 51:00 Well, the Tenderloin's-

Scott Galloway 51:01 But-

Kara Swisher 51:01 ... been bad for decades, but go ahead. Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 51:03 You know this. You-

Kara Swisher 51:04 I do.

Scott Galloway 51:04 ... you, you're gonna forget more about the city than I'm, ever gonna go. In 1999, I, I left the board of my company, got divorced, and said to my wife, ex-wife, "You can have our friends. I never wanna come back here again."

Kara Swisher 51:17 Hmm.

Scott Galloway 51:17 Um, probably more information than people wanted.

Kara Swisher 51:19 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 51:20 Uh, and I can't stand... San Francisco's my least favorite city. I just, uh, I've just never, I've never really enjoyed it.

Kara Swisher 51:26 It's all right.

Scott Galloway 51:26 Anyway, but, but he probably had a bad experience. He's probably trying to pose a little bit for the Trump lights and get in on some of that AI-

Kara Swisher 51:36 Suites.

Scott Galloway 51:36 ... you know, whatever it might be. But, uh, uh, the first thing I thought when I saw it was I thought it was sad because I do think Mark has spent a lot of time trying to be the good billionaire. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 51:48 I know.

Scott Galloway 51:48 And I think a lot of it is genuine. I don't think it's, I don't think it's doing it to try and, to try and, uh, get business or deflect or be righteous or tell nonprofits how to behave. I genuinely believe he is one of the good guys. And I hated to see this 'cause the reality is when you get... It's very easy to enter in your own bubble and, and say stupid things, and he could fix this.

Kara Swisher 52:10 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 52:10 Very simple.

Kara Swisher 52:10 It's interesting that he won't 'cause he has-

Scott Galloway 52:11 This was stupid. I apologize.

Kara Swisher 52:12 He has changed a little bit, I have to say. I think... One of the things... I did a really, uh, famous interview where he said... he compared Facebook to cigarette companies, right? And he was... Uh, you know, and he was one of the few when tr- when they had that Trump Tower thing, he's, he was like, "Can you believe this shit?" Uh, when they... when all the tech billionaires went. And now I think he's seen, um, you know... They're all sort of pigs at the trough, and he's decided to oink. I just don't know what else it is. Like, and that's... So, and maybe he's had a change of heart and he's become more conservative. I don't know. But you can't do Ohana and then say, "Let's bring in the troops," when San Francisco's trying really hard to fix itself and is on the upswing. It's such an-

Scott Galloway 52:53 And it's getting better, right?

Kara Swisher 52:54 Yes.

Scott Galloway 52:54 You just said it's, it's-

Kara Swisher 52:55 It's so ill-timed.

Scott Galloway 52:56 ... v- it's noticeably better.

Kara Swisher 52:57 And if Garry Tan is saying (laughs) this, who's the biggest complainer about San Francisco, there's a whole sort of right-ish group. And I, I wouldn't say right because it's San Francisco, but they are pretty conservative. Um, you know, is applauding the efforts... And by the way, everyone's moving back, Mark, just so you know. Elon's back in California, uh, you know. The whole gang of them that complained is all locating in, in San Francisco or California. I just... I, I... It, it's like s- it... I thought y- he went out on a real limb when he co- compared... He was the earliest person, and almost like a class traitor, right, saying Facebook was like cigarette companies. He was right.

Scott Galloway 53:33 That's right.

Kara Swisher 53:33 And he took the shit for that.

Scott Galloway 53:35 Yeah. He was early. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 53:36 And it wasn't... He, he wasn't, um, virtue signaling 'cause it wasn't a good thing to say. It didn't work out well for him to do that. But this was... (sighs) I just think he wanted attention. The other thing that drove me crazy from that interview, and I was, uh, was shocked by it... He owns Time Magazine, for people who don't know. And by the way, that photo of Trump looks like he has a vagina on his neck, but that's neither here nor there. Um, is that he said, "I haven't really been reading the news lately about the ICE stuff." And like he, he owns a major p- um, uh, I don't think it's as big as it used to be, but he owns a major news publication. Pretending like, "Well, I, I don't really know about the other things." That stuff? Give me a fucking break. You're a brilliant guy. Stop it. Like, you know what... That you've decided it's okay or you're gonna ignore it, but to say, "I really wasn't paying attent... What... Is there other things happening here?" Like the IRS or the ICE stuff or anything else, and I, I don't... It's sort of like... I don't know. It just was... Uh, just-

Scott Galloway 54:32 I think he's done a great job with Time. Um-

Kara Swisher 54:35 Uh, y-

Scott Galloway 54:35 ... or at least-

Kara Swisher 54:36 It's better. It's better, yeah.

Scott Galloway 54:37 But let me just say, it survived.

Kara Swisher 54:38 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 54:38 It wouldn't have survived.

Kara Swisher 54:39 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 54:39 It's economically unviable unless you have a... I mean, like most unfortunate media companies, unless it's owned by a benign billionaire, it goes away. Or it becomes-

Kara Swisher 54:47 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 54:47 ... all about cost-cutting or sensationalism to try and get clicks. I don't-

Kara Swisher 54:51 I don't mind Go Away, I have to tell you, on some things. I think it-

Scott Galloway 54:54 Let him go. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 54:55 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 54:55 Let him die. Um...

Kara Swisher 54:56 Um, I think he's done a perfectly good job. But, uh, I have to say, at various points, he said, "You should come work for me." Honestly, Mark, I'm glad I didn't (laughs) at this point. This isn't... Please say... What Scott said, say you're sorry. And y- you know, stop acting like a victim. And I know you want that sweet AI money, but honestly, Ohana man. Ohana. You know he says that all the time, all this Ohana-ness. Well, this is an Ohana, just so you know. All right, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about news outlets pushing back on the Defense Department's idiotic new regulations. (instrumental music plays) Support for this show comes from BILT Rewards. Nobody wants to pay rent, but if you have to, BILT makes it worth it. BILT is revolutionizing how millions think about paying rent by rewarding their members with points and exclusive benefits around their neighborhood every single month. By paying rent through BILT, they say you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed towards hundreds of hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride, and more. But your home isn't just where you sleep. It's your community, and BILT wants to make your entire neighborhood more rewarding. So with BILT, you can dine out at your favorite local restaurants and earn additional points, get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios, and enjoy exclusive experiences just for BILT members every month. And when you're ready to travel, they say BILT points can be converted to miles or hotel points all around the world. You can earn points on rent and around your neighborhood wherever you call home by going to joinbilt.com/pivot. That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T.com/pivot. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you. Scott, we're back with more news.

Kara Swisher 56:29 News organizations, including Fox News, have declined to sign the Defense Department's new press policy denouncing the regulations in a joint statement. The policy prohibits journalists from gaining information the Defense Department doesn't make available for them. It also revokes Pentagon press credentials for those who don't agree. By sign- by the signing deadline, only OAN, One America News, had agreed to the policy. Uh, they're kind of a organ of the Trump administration, so that makes sense. Um, you know, but I mean, Pete, uh, Hegseth was trying to say, well, it's like the way the White House is, but I, I don't think this is the worst thing for these reporters. They walked out. They can get, they can find these other people. They don't have to wander around. It's, it's a, it's easier if you're wandering around the Pentagon, I guess. But, uh, I think these outlets did the right thing by just saying, "No, we're not signing this thing." And I think this is really... Pete Hegseth is usually, has mangled and bungled this entire thing. What are your thoughts?

Scott Galloway 57:23 I thought it was a nice moment for the press.

Kara Swisher 57:25 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 57:25 They all came together, and they said, "We're not gonna put up with this." And, um, it, uh, uh, I think that Secretary Hegseth does not have the confidence or management skills or ability to read the room or the judgment to oversee the most lethal, successful organization in history. Uh, and this is just another example of this. This didn't need to happen. He, he's, he's created more drama. He's handled this poorly. In an effort to control the press, he's created a bunch of bad press for the Pentagon and the administration. This is, you know-

Kara Swisher 57:58 Stupid.

Scott Galloway 57:58 ... this is a, it's blown up in his face. His, his inability to... his belief that he could muscle around journalists backfired. And again, the whole point of this was to create a sanitized stream of information out of the Pentagon that would only be complementary or frame it in a certain way. And if it wasn't, if it wasn't for journalists, I mean, we'd probably still be in Vietnam. I mean, it's just (laughs) the, the, the, it... Typically, the secretary of defense comes from a civilian background because they've decided that generals have a habit, and not all generals, but generals have a habit of looking for military solutions. And what you need is a, a secretary of defense that understands the private sector and also is, quite frankly, just more rooted in a, a civilian mindset or a geopolitical mindset. And instead, we hired a major who was a TV host to head the secretary-, you know, to become the new secretary of war. And this individual just doesn't have good judgment. So in an attempt to sanitize, politicize, and create a stream of pre-approved press, they've made it worse. They've created a stream of really negative press saying, "This is yet another example of an authoritarian government trying to control the narrative here." And it, uh, kudos to everyone, NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, and Fox all issued a joint statement declining to agree to the new policy.

Kara Swisher 59:26 Weird. Why this?

Scott Galloway 59:26 And this was-

Kara Swisher 59:27 I mean, he's also, uh, lie-testing all the employees, too. He's such a par-... Like, guy, get, get off your whatever substances you're using 'cause it's making you freaky, you know? I don't know.

Scott Galloway 59:37 I mean, fortunately, this, this authoritarian move was handled so... Like, Trump issuing a crypto coin that increases his net worth by $5 billion the Friday night before inauguration was kinda genius. They, the timing here was so elegant. You know, I've always said this. It's like, it's like we're, this is a mafia family, but unfortunately, unfortunately, you have Michael running the corruption, and you have Fredo running the government.

Kara Swisher 1:00:08 Yep.

Scott Galloway 1:00:08 Hegseth is Fredo.

Kara Swisher 1:00:09 Yeah, he's Fredo.

Scott Galloway 1:00:10 The person running his crypto scams, the person running his-

Kara Swisher 1:00:13 His money.

Scott Galloway 1:00:13 ... tour around the Middle East to get, to get buildings and golf courses and 747s.

Kara Swisher 1:00:18 Who's Sonny? Who is Sonny? Sorry.

Scott Galloway 1:00:20 Oh, that's a really interesting statement.

Kara Swisher 1:00:22 (laughs) Just whatever.

Scott Galloway 1:00:23 I love James Caan.

Kara Swisher 1:00:24 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:00:25 Um-

Kara Swisher 1:00:25 Who's Sonny? Who's that?

Scott Galloway 1:00:26 I love Brian Piccolo.

Kara Swisher 1:00:28 Uh, uh, who is Sonny? Let's think. Who's like the big (imitates person making sound) ? Who always says idiotic? Besson thinks he's Sonny, but he's not. Remember, "I'm gonna beat everyone up." Can I just say, I just, he seems like, and I'm gonna bring back a word from our youth. Uh, he's such a dork. Like, he's such a dork. Um, the other thing is, um... Let me just say a word very quickly, and then we

Narrator 1:00:47 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 1:00:47 ... do one about access journalism. I was asked by, I was on Katie Drummond's podcast from Wired. I think she's doing an astonishing job at Wired, really reinvigorating that brand. Um, and she asked about access, and do I regret. And I have to say, I really think that...... I sh- you get better stories not having access, actually, if you, if you do really good reporting. And, you know, being at the Wall Street Journal and a little bit at The Times and the Washington Post, they always bring it to you first, right? And then you sort of agree to release it as if you got a scoop, but it isn't 'cause they hand, they hand-delivered it to you. Um, I have to say, I got a lot better after I just said, "Fuck access." Like, "I don't care if they talk to me or not." And I, I would say I did too much of that trading, and every reporter does too much of that access stuff, like, "I'll give you this if you give me this." And I'm so happy that they don't wanna talk to me now, 'cause I can do whatever I want. And I still find out more stuff, because one of the things that Hegseth doesn't understand is reporting has moved on, and there are so many sources and... In the old days, you'd have to either meet someone or get a phone call, which is real traceable, right? And so it was really hard. Now there's so many ways to get to sources and so many ways for them to get to you and to publish on their own, it's a whole different game. So as usual, Hegseth, who was living in the '80s with the way he dresses and does the, you know, Party On garth, um, is, is really, um, way behind in understanding how now they will double down on finding shit about him about and reporting, because it's all there. It's not they're not gonna make it up. But he's... Even people who work for him are like, this one spokesperson who had a falling out with him, is like, "What a fucking idiot. He doesn't understand the modern media age." That's my, that's my access thing. No access is better.

Scott Galloway 1:02:34 Yeah, I think though... But I think you... I empathize with journalists who are trying to... I mean, it, it... You guys have to walk a, a fine line, and that is you wanna get good interviews, and people aren't gonna come on your show if they think they're just-

Kara Swisher 1:02:50 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:02:50 ... gonna be ambushed.

Kara Swisher 1:02:52 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:02:52 So I, I understand the temptation for access journalism. You're at a point where, quite frankly, you no longer need to engage in access journalism.

Kara Swisher 1:02:59 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:02:59 So you have the luxury of-

Kara Swisher 1:03:02 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:03:02 I think people listen to you when you speak. You have a big platform.

Kara Swisher 1:03:05 People call me.

Scott Galloway 1:03:05 People are a little bit scared of you. People see you as tough but fair. But I can understand, uh, playing into the notion of access.

Kara Swisher 1:03:11 Yeah, I do.

Scott Galloway 1:03:12 I do it a little. I mean, I get it. You're an up-and-coming journalist. You don't wanna be... You don't want everyone to go, "No, I'm not going on her show. She's, she's not-"

Kara Swisher 1:03:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:03:20 "... you know, not, not nice or trying to make me look bad."

Kara Swisher 1:03:22 Especially TV ones, by the way. They have a harder time, 'cause they need the physical person, right? So.

Scott Galloway 1:03:28 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:03:29 It's hard. It's hard. Access journalism is incredibly hard, and it probably should go away. Anyway, um, uh, one more quick break, Scott, and we'll be back for predictions. (gentle music)

Scott Galloway 1:03:42 Support for the show comes from Mint Mobile. If you're still overpaying for your wireless, it's time to start becoming more comfortable with saying no. Because at Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no. They mean no owner's contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no BS. So when they say no, they really mean it. Mint Mobile is letting you ditch overpriced wireless with plans starting at just $15 a month. All plans come with high-speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network without the jaw-dropping monthly bills or unexpected overages. Plus, you can use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. Ready to say yes to saying no? Make the switch at mintmobile.com/pivot. That's mintmobile.com/pivot. Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 per month. Limited-time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

Kara Swisher 1:04:41 Okay, Scott,

Kara Swisher 1:04:42 uh, we're here for predictions, but I, can I just make a brief one? Kim Kardashian just-

Scott Galloway 1:04:46 Of course.

Kara Swisher 1:04:46 ... launched an interesting new product for SKIMS, a thong adorned with fake pubic hair. It's already selling out. I predict Scott Galloway probably bought 10 or 12 of them, this, this thong. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:04:57 What? What is this fake pubic hair?

Kara Swisher 1:04:58 This SKIMS business is huge. FYI, Kim Kardashian is a great entrepreneur. She works with great entrepreneurs. SKIMS is this under- I guess it's underwear, I guess, and a bunch of other stuff. But the thong is adorned with fake pubic hair. Um, uh, I, I just feel like... (laughs) I wish I could get one for you. That's all I have to say.

Scott Galloway 1:05:19 Yeah, no, I'm not, I'm not grabbing that one.

Kara Swisher 1:05:21 All right.

Scott Galloway 1:05:21 Um...

Kara Swisher 1:05:21 Your prediction, please.

Scott Galloway 1:05:23 Uh, so my prediction is that you're about to see the greatest... So reality TV was huge, um, kind of probably the biggest trend in TV through the, through the aughts. I don't know what was bigger than that, original scripted comedies? I don't know. Uh, the biggest trend in television over the next, uh, streaming media and broadcast television over the next two years, is going to be podcasts repurposed as TV shows.

Kara Swisher 1:05:52 Oh, I know where you're going.

Scott Galloway 1:05:53 And if you look at recently, Netflix's deal with, um, Spotify and podcasts, they've basically said, "Okay..." I mean, how did Netflix win the war? I mean, let's be honest-

Kara Swisher 1:06:03 Well, you explained the deal for people who don't know. So...

Scott Galloway 1:06:07 Yeah, Spotify and Netflix are partnering to bring podcasts to Netflix. The partnership will bring video versions of 16 different Spotify-exclusive podcasts to Netflix. And this is essentially a shift following Spotify's large investment in the podcast space. They spent billions, uh, for purchasing studios like Parcast, The ringer, and Gimlet Media and signing exclusive deals with people ranging from Joe Rogan to Alex Cooper, and many of these didn't pan out to be profitable. And Spotify learned that the real value of podcasts isn't just in audio, it's in video, and they're not strong in video and YouTube is. What this really... I mean, so YouTube revealed that over a billion people every month watch and listen to podcasts on YouTube. I think about 18% of our listens and 25% of Prop G listens are on a TV, and it's people streaming it off of YouTube. YouTube is the biggest distribution platform for podcasts. Netflix has correctly identified that their competition is not Disney+ or Hulu. They've beaten them, or Paramount+, that, that just doesn't matter. Their competition is YouTube, who commands about 11 or 12% of video listenership, and Netflix is at eight. And YouTube is big, really big. And podcasting, it's kind of the biggest...... it's the biggest distribution platform for what we're doing now. In addition, Netflix, their strategy and how they won is through an arbitrage. And in this instance, it was a geographic arbitrage where they said, "We're not gonna produce stuff. We're gonna spend more money than anyone else, but for spending X, we're gonna get 1.2X 'cause we're gonna produce Squid Games in Seoul, Korea, and we're gonna present-"

Kara Swisher 1:07:39 Right.

Scott Galloway 1:07:40 "... you know, produce Money Heist in Madrid." The next arbitrage that you're gonna see is, effectively podcasts are television with a lower cost means of production.

Kara Swisher 1:07:50 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 1:07:50 And that is-

Kara Swisher 1:07:51 Because I think-

Scott Galloway 1:07:52 ... the rev-

Kara Swisher 1:07:52 ... this is amazing special effects going on here, but go ahead.

Scott Galloway 1:07:56 Well, if you look at what's happened, and the guy that sort of pioneered this for me. Uh, the first thing I did when I arrived in London, literally when I moved here three and a half years ago, is I got off the plane, and I went to Shortage, and I was on this podcast. It was supposed to be this up and coming kid named Steven Bartlett, who I think is the next Joe Rogan. And he's this super attractive, really great inter- interviewer, 31, 32. And I walked into his podcast studio, and there were 12 people in like a six camera shoot. He said, "This is TV. This is..." And he gets millions of views on... And Chris Williams has a good TV game. Basically the people churning in and out of podcasts is primarily the fulcrum of that churn right now, is your video game. And now what is the problem with streaming media? And what is the problem with cable news? Um, their audiences on cable news are declining. In streaming media, it's a capital war. So all roads lead to the same place, and that is they need a way to create content for a lower cost. And effectively what you have with podcasts, the best podcasts can create 22, 20, you know, 21 minutes or 42 minutes of content for a 30 or 60 minute slot on TV. But they can produce it for 10 to 15% of the cost of the hair, the makeup, the unions, the theater. I mean, it's just, uh, the c- Uh, I did the analysis here. Comcast gets somewhere between two and three hundred thousand dollars in revenue per employee. Pivot right now this year will get easily over a million dollars (laughs) per employee, because our means of production are so much less expensive.

Kara Swisher 1:09:27 So you're saying-

Scott Galloway 1:09:27 ... that things are so much more profitable-

Kara Swisher 1:09:28 ... our applying our own makeup and having a shitty background is really good business (laughs) . Is what you're... No, you have a good one.

Scott Galloway 1:09:34 Well, it's-

Kara Swisher 1:09:34 You always have a good background. Can I ask you a specific question? What I thought was interesting-

Scott Galloway 1:09:38 Sure.

Kara Swisher 1:09:38 ... was all these ideas of Netflix moving in, and I know you talked to them for s- second, um, moving into podcasting.

Scott Galloway 1:09:44 Yep.

Kara Swisher 1:09:44 This isn't really moving into it. It's taking in two things. It's taking advantage of the current environment and, and playing into your strength, which is dif- distribution, one. And two, they're requiring people not to be on YouTube, which is a big shift. So obviously they're declaring that-

Scott Galloway 1:10:00 That's a flex.

Kara Swisher 1:10:00 ... YouTube their enemy.

Scott Galloway 1:10:02 That's a flex.

Kara Swisher 1:10:02 Their only enemy.

Scott Galloway 1:10:04 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:10:04 But, um-

Scott Galloway 1:10:04 That's, that's exactly right.

Kara Swisher 1:10:05 'Cause I bet if we did that, something like that, they wouldn't require us not to go on CNN or not req- They don't care, right? So, so talk about w- If that's a good trade for people not to go on YouTube. 'Cause to me, YouTube is television, and this is sort of early territory. And then the idea that, um, they're just dipping... They're not really gonna produce podcasts the way they produce, I don't know, uh, K-pop demon hunters or whatever it happens to be.

Scott Galloway 1:10:31 They will soon. They're gonna learn. They, they have a hundred and f- Th- Uh, they control, other than the Google query box, it's probably the most valuable real estate in the world, is that home screen on Netflix. 150 million people will watch what they put on that home screen. So within 24 months, they're dipping their toe. They're gonna learn about it. I bet within 24 to 36 months, Netflix has three of the ten biggest podcasts in the world, and they'll be owned and operated by Netflix. And ev- Uh, you're exactly right. Netflix has said, "Our competitor here is YouTube, so we'll partner with Spotify, but you can't be on YouTube." But this is what's gonna happen. On with Kara Swisher. Some really talented person at CNN will take the two or three hours of content you have every week, take the best 41 minutes and run it o- on, on an hour on CNN, where quite frankly, they don't know what to do with that hour. And by the way, it's absolute. It's, it's-

Kara Swisher 1:11:22 They won't.

Scott Galloway 1:11:23 ... negligible incremental cost to you.

Kara Swisher 1:11:25 They won't.

Scott Galloway 1:11:25 Negligible incremental cost to them.

Kara Swisher 1:11:27 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:11:27 And you split the revenue.

Kara Swisher 1:11:28 Yeah. Uh, that's true.

Scott Galloway 1:11:29 So you're gonna see, you're gonna see the, the, of the 50 biggest podcasts-

Kara Swisher 1:11:34 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 1:11:34 ... within 12 months-

Kara Swisher 1:11:36 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:11:36 ... 12 to 20 of them will be playing on TV, because what is the problem with cable news?

Kara Swisher 1:11:42 Doesn't have good stuff.

Scott Galloway 1:11:43 It, it is a revenue problem, but the bigger problem is the expense side.

Kara Swisher 1:11:46 And the content.

Scott Galloway 1:11:47 And it-

Kara Swisher 1:11:48 Like it's the same cont- It's not different. It doesn't... It's like the same airless studio.

Scott Galloway 1:11:52 It's not that interesting, and it's really fucking expensive. When I haul my ass up to-

Kara Swisher 1:11:55 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:11:56 ... be on Stephanie Ruhle's j- uh, show-

Kara Swisher 1:11:58 And we love her.

Scott Galloway 1:11:58 You look at the, the, the... Uh, uh, she does a great job. But the cost of that show, the unions, the makeup, the sound guy-

Kara Swisher 1:12:05 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:12:05 ... the security staff, the, the build... I mean, it just, the means of production are so goddamn expensive.

Kara Swisher 1:12:11 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:12:11 Whereas if they say, "Okay, we're gonna take 41 minutes of On and we're gonna run it after Fareed on Sunday or whatever." And by the way-

Kara Swisher 1:12:19 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:12:19 ... even if it, even if we only make half as much revenue, we're, it's gonna be a lot more profitable.

Kara Swisher 1:12:24 Yes. You know what? I haven't-

Scott Galloway 1:12:24 Because-

Kara Swisher 1:12:25 ... gotten that call.

Scott Galloway 1:12:25 ... they're already producing it.

Kara Swisher 1:12:26 (laughs) I have not gotten-

Scott Galloway 1:12:28 Oh, you will.

Kara Swisher 1:12:29 ... that-

Scott Galloway 1:12:29 You watch. Anyways-

Kara Swisher 1:12:30 All right. Okay.

Scott Galloway 1:12:31 ... my prediction is-

Kara Swisher 1:12:31 By the way, I'm not working for the Alisons-

Scott Galloway 1:12:33 ... the war-

Kara Swisher 1:12:33 ... but that's another issue. But go ahead.

Scott Galloway 1:12:35 But podcasts are effectively-

Kara Swisher 1:12:36 Oh.

Scott Galloway 1:12:36 ... becoming TV shows with a strong au-

Kara Swisher 1:12:38 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:12:38 ... audio overlay, and more importantly, a lower means of cost of production. Netflix is dipping their toe in. They're gonna realize that the next arbitrage is to take content, repurpose it at a very low incremental cost, and put it on their distribution platform. And everyone else is gonna start doing this. You're gonna see MSNBC take