PivotSam Altman Says OpenAI Not "Moral Police" After Backlash | Pivot
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,099 words- 0:00 – 6:41
Intro
- SGScott Galloway
... Sam Altman saying, "We shouldn't be the morality police." No. No. Actually, you should.
- KSKara Swisher
(instrumental music) Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.
- SGScott Galloway
And I'm Scott Galloway.
- KSKara Swisher
Scott, guess where I am?
- SGScott Galloway
Where are you?
- KSKara Swisher
Los Angeles, your favorite place. You love Los Angeles.
- SGScott Galloway
Really?
- KSKara Swisher
Yes.
- SGScott Galloway
And what are you doing there?
- KSKara Swisher
Um, I am working on the, one of the last interviews for this secret documentary series (laughs) with, uh, the, the hacking guy.
- SGScott Galloway
The Worst Kept, Worst Kept Secret?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
The hacking guy.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
I met him at the Aspen Gathering.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh.
- SGScott Galloway
Um, yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Thoughts? Did you discuss all your body-
- SGScott Galloway
All my stuff?
- KSKara Swisher
... hacking. Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, of course, he wanted to know my secret.
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs)
- SGScott Galloway
Um, and I said, "Well, actually, you know, I'm like, other than, you know, the lower facelift-"
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
"... the chin implant-"
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
"... my eyes done-"
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
"... the pico laser-"
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- 6:41 – 18:45
Leaked Young Republican Texts
- KSKara Swisher
leaked texts from messaging platform Telegram reveal leaders of the Young Republican Groups exchange racist, sexist and anti-Semitic texts over the span of seven months. The chats included jokes about enslavement, uh, negative comments about minorities. They're really gross. I'm not gonna repeat them. But they are like, "Think of the worst thing, and then make it worse," is, was what they were. And discussions about raping enemies and driving them to suicide. Uh, uh, an- and if you see the pictures of these people, e- each one looks like an incel, honestly. The Young Republican National Federation said it was appalled by the language and suggested those involved must resign, but as usual, J.D. Vance, couch potato, took the opportunity to criticize the Democratic Virginia's AG candidate who has a texting scandal of his own regarding political violence. That guy is terrible, but of course, J.D. Vance can't possibly just say sorry. Uh, Vance called the response to the Republican group texts pearl clutching in comparison. Uh, let's listen to a clip of him on The Charlie Kirk Show. He's gonna have a great job as a podcaster when he leaves office.
- GUGuest
But the reality is that kids do stupid things, especially young boys. They tell edgy, offensive jokes. Like, that's what kids do. And I really don't want us to grow up in a country where a kid telling a stupid joke, telling a very offensive stupid joke, is cause to ruin their lives. And at some point, we're all g- all gonna have to say, "Enough of this BS."
- KSKara Swisher
I'll tell you who's enough of this BS, is, is J.D. Vance. Uh, some individuals exposed in the messages have been fired, and at least one Young Republican groups has been disbanded. Um, what... ? Think of this, 'cause it, uh, it really was over the top. And, you know, it's... We, we do... Uh, it's not cancel culture is back, but it was pretty horrible. Like, it was shock... I, I was even surprised. Maybe I shouldn't have been. What did you think?
- SGScott Galloway
Initially, uh, all else being equal, I sort of agree with J.D. Vance in the sense that-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, no.
- SGScott Galloway
Well-
- KSKara Swisher
I'm gonna have to break up with you.
- SGScott Galloway
G- give me some time here, and then you can pose for the woke ring light.
- KSKara Swisher
Okay, okay. I'm not gonna p- Don't, don't always pull-
- SGScott Galloway
Don't bring that up.
- KSKara Swisher
... woke. Don't always bring woke-
- SGScott Galloway
(laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
That's your excuse. When you're losing an argument, you say woke. But go ahead, move on.
- SGScott Galloway
Mm.
- KSKara Swisher
You do.
- SGScott Galloway
I don't know.
- KSKara Swisher
You do.
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, anyways. So, I empathize with the notion that we had the luxury of not having a digital world where every, every r- ridiculously offensive, stupid thing we did... I mean, the shit, th- the shit we did in college, I look back on and I cringe-
- KSKara Swisher
I get it.
- SGScott Galloway
And I... Thank God I wasn't involved. Now, having said that...
- KSKara Swisher
Can I just interject for people for a fact, Scott?
- SGScott Galloway
No, because you're, you're gonna steal my thunder and then-
- KSKara Swisher
Okay, go ahead.
- SGScott Galloway
Everyone's gonna come on and say, "Oh, can't go there."
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs) You're so...
- SGScott Galloway
Um, all right.
- KSKara Swisher
I know all your tricks.
- SGScott Galloway
One, these aren't children. Some of these, some of these people, specifically some of these men, are not even young men. Th- they're 31 and 35. Uh, two, he's the wrong messenger for this, because he's totally inconsistent. If this was a Democratic, Young Democratic chat, he would have ordered a gunship and fucking the Army Rangers to their homes. And, uh, this is the same group of people that says that a joke about, uh, Donald Trump, uh, talking about a ballroom when asked about Charlie Kirk is so offensive that it should be removed from the air. So, it's incredibly hypocritical and inconsistent for Vice President Vance to say anything about, "Come on, guys, it's just spee- it's just... You know, bros, frat kids are gonna be frat kids." And also, these are not children.
- KSKara Swisher
Or kids.
- SGScott Galloway
And when you look at what they said, uh, th- I don't like... There is a certain gotcha culture where the media goes crazy around calling people out. But the reality is when you read these texts, these young men or, or adults, these adult men, are about to learn a valuable life lesson, in that there is no context for which these types of conversations or statements are acceptable. And distinctive whether they're racist, bigoted, wha- whatever, homophobic, it, it should, it should logically, practically, from a common sense standpoint, hurt their careers because these, these people just lack so much common sense.
- 18:45 – 28:51
AI Safety Bills
- KSKara Swisher
California Governor Gavin Newsom vetoed a bill this week would have banned minors from using AI chatbots. His reason, the bill's restrictions were too broad. Uh, I would agree. He did sign another AI safety bill requiring chatbots to tell users they're AI and reminding minors every three hours to take breaks. OpenAI called the bill a meaningful move forward for AI safety standards, though CEO Sam Altman also just revealed that OpenAI will allow verified use adults to access erotica on ChatGPT in December. Um, it's w- and I'm not sure if these are related, but they feel like they are. Um, the first bill, uh, I, I, I know it was pushed by a lot of different groups, but it was broad because it, it seemed like it wa- is it attacking older people too, and it felt like, um, we have to really specifically carve out minors here, um, in a way. Um, I think it's harder to try to ban regular people from having, uh, older people, excuse me, from having, um, relationships with chatbots, as weird as they may be and how, even if they lead to bad outcomes as many of them have. Um, I don't, I think we, uh, I don't know what to say about the, the erotica. Do you, do you thi- what do you think about what is and isn't getting regulated and, and the erotica thing? Um, Sam Altman later said, "Eh, OpenAI was not the elected moral police of the world." I, I didn't think they were, but okay. Uh, what do you, what do you think?
- SGScott Galloway
(sighs) Look, I don't... You know... Oh God. So, uh-
- KSKara Swisher
No, you're trying really hard not to make a joke.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, no (laughs) . No, I'm not. I wrot- I'm writing this book on masculinity. And I think one of the things that kills masculinity is an overindulgence in porn because I think key to success-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, you talk about that.
- SGScott Galloway
... and one of, and one of the important things and one of the wonderful things about being a man is that we're more risk aggressive. Now, sometimes that results in reckless behavior, but sometimes it also results in valor and, and wonderful things can happen. When you apply for a job you're not qualified for, when you start a business that makes no sense and ends up being crazy genius, when you approach a woman and take, uh, the risk of rejection, it can lead to wonderful places. The problem with porn, I find among young men, is that an overconsumption of porn reduces their mojo to take risks and establish relationships that might lead to romantic relationships. And that is, we have demonized and pathologized sexual desire among young men. And the reality is it's like fire. It can lead to bad places. It can lead to objectifying women. It can lead to inappropriate behavior. But for the most part, it's the fire that goes into an engine that creates a better you or desire for a better you.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
I wanna look better. I wanna look be- I wanna work out. I wanna smell nice. I wanna groom. I wanna have a plan. I wanna dress well. I wanna take risks. I wanna demonstrate kindness.
- KSKara Swisher
Definitely.
- SGScott Galloway
So the idea of a combination of erotic content with the character AI and synthetic relationship capabilities of these companies I think is a fucking disaster. Because the first time a 14-year-old male gets shunned by a 14-year-old girl, which is part of growing up because women have a much finer filter for mating opportunities 'cause the downside of sex is so much greater. Uh, I mean, if you want, if you're a dude and you wanna have women in your life and you want romantic opportunities, that involves one thing, rejection and hopefully resilience. And what I worry about is the first signs of rejection, a 14-year-old, a 15-year-old, a 16-year-old, uh, boy starts turning to this awesome synthetic AI that looks like the hottest girl you've ever met, who will tease you just enough, and then-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
... and then start showing you private parts and then let you engage-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
... in a series of erotic synthetic experiences that are low friction, low risk, and quite frankly just reduce the fire.
- KSKara Swisher
Y- y- you, can I just, uh, you, you used a word there, which again, that the people at Silicon Valley use all the time, which is seamless, frictionless. They don't like friction. Like, th- and the problem is-
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... I, I've done a bunch of interviews about this lately. And what's interesting is, um, the friction part, like, uh, and it goes the other way. Women would like men more attentive, more they could make their own characters, right? It's not gonna be-
- SGScott Galloway
And they are.
- KSKara Swisher
... just-
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... you know? And then you have a, you know, a frictionless relationship, which I think is useless on some, I mean, it can be entertaining for a second. But once you get used to that, anyone in real life is inc- incredibly problematic, right, for you because you're used to this sort of seamless, frictionless life. Sex is friction, of course, you know, physically. Um, but it really does, um... Uh, I, you can't... The thing is you can't really stop them from doing it, right? He's right. He's not the moral police. Nope. By, I don't, by the way, that's kind of a straw man. No one thought OpenAI was the w- world's police, moral police. Fine, he can say that. Um, but, uh, but more to the point, it just makes this ease of, of easing us into these relationships of course will help his bottom line because this is the kind of thing you stay on there. Even early chat, if you remember early chat groups were incredibly addictive just between and among different people, especially... I had a chapter in my AOL book called The House, The House That, Uh, Online Porn Built 'cause that's where it really got going is online porn early, in the early internet phase. This is just a quantum leap, I think.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, there's basically three ways to make money on the internet. There's ads, there's e-commerce, and there's porn.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
And the problem or one of the issues with porn is that there's very little peer review research 'cause the majority of academics don't wanna be known as the porn professor.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
And so, but just some basic-
- KSKara Swisher
There's an opening for you, Scott. Go ahead.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, there you go. Um-I'm not gonna touch that one, so-
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs) Don't touch anything. Go ahead.
- SGScott Galloway
Look, 68 million search queries related to pornography, w- and now get this, a quarter of all searches-
- 28:51 – 38:23
Instagram’s PG-13 Rating
- KSKara Swisher
This comes as Instagram just announced new protections for teens limiting what they can see based on PG movies. The platform says it will hide, uh, content with strong language, risky stunts, and marijuana use from teen users. Oh, no, not the, not, not the demon weed. Restrictions will also apply to AI bots. The updates follow recent reports questioning whether Instagram's existing teen account safeguards actually work. So they de- decried the people who said they don't, these reports, but then they, of course, do something. They, the point I wanna make here is they don't think of it first. They should think of it first before these reports come out, and nothing's gonna be perfect, by the way. I don't expect perfection. But they really are so sloppy i- in how they do, do this. And then they're gonna act like a PG-13 rating is the same thing, because this is immersive. This isn't a movie theater down the street. This is something much different, um, i- that's very hard to keep your teens out of, right? I mean, Scott, you, this is what your book's about, right? This is, this is one of these way stations that young men are gonna go through, young teenagers, and it's not, they're not coming out good on the other side of this eh- 'cause we slap a label on it. But I don't mind there being a label.
- SGScott Galloway
When I was, I think I was 13, I was with my best buddy, Adam Markman, and we lived in walking distance from Westwood Village, which by the way is a shadow of itself right now. But we used to, we used to have friends who were ushers at all the theaters, The National, The Man- The Bruin, the Westwood Village Theater, and we'd go, and we'd try and get eye contact with one of our friends who was an usher, and he'd like leave a door open and we'd sneak in and, and watch movies. And one day we took a wrong turn, and at the age of 13, we, we-... t- stumbled into, s- fell into William Blatty's The Exorcist. I could not, in the morning, I would have to put on my socks in the corner to make sure that the devil wasn't coming for, I, I couldn't, I slept on the floor at the foot of my mother's bed for two weeks. And no third-
- KSKara Swisher
Sky high and I'm coming for ya. (laughs) Just kidding.
- SGScott Galloway
No 13-year-old, Max von Sydow-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
... Linda Blair's cinematic peak, obviously-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Ellen Burstyn-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, she is.
- SGScott Galloway
... a hugely underrated actress.
- KSKara Swisher
I love her.
- SGScott Galloway
Um, anyways, uh, uh, a 13-year-old should not see The Exorcist.
- KSKara Swisher
No.
- SGScott Galloway
The movies had it right. There's certain content, and I believe technologies, that young people should not be exposed to as their brain is wired. And one of those things, we've decided, is pornography. And Sam Altman saying, "We shouldn't be the morality police," no, no, actually you should. You should have standards. And that is no one under the age of 18 should, in any way, be allowed to engage with a synthetic relationship, and two, you need to age-gate pornography.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
It, it, it, everybody else does this.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Why are you different? And because you can do it better or because there's more money involved?
- KSKara Swisher
They don't do it better. And it's harder 'cause it's so pernicious. It's not like a movie theater, 'cause you have to f- like you said, you physically went to Westwood, went into the movie. And listen, every parent has an example of this. Like, my movie that I shouldn't have seen was Tales from the Crypt, right? I shouldn't have snuck into that movie and I did. And, and, uh, and w- like, one, and for Alex, uh, he snuck around the corner while Louie and I were watching Ted. And I, that, that wasn't quite that, but it was just dirty. And I, I wish he had been older, and I wish I had been a better parent in that regard. And with Louie, uh, going to Sausage Party with him, mistake, right? But this...
- SGScott Galloway
You felt that, yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh man, I didn't think that f- that was gonna have sex. But anyway, it was, he, literally in the middle, right as they started to do that, I have to say, Louie turned to me and said, "Good parenting." And I go, "I wanna kill myself." (laughs) Like, it's like so bad. And then we were like, "Shall we leave?" And he goes, "No, let's just sit here quietly and not look." Anyway, it was terrible.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, you know, you know that there are actually, there's a sequel coming out to The Exorcist, but it's, it's a different twist. This time it's the devil trying to get the priest out of the child.
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs) Oh, god.
- SGScott Galloway
That's good.
- KSKara Swisher
It isn't good. So what-
- SGScott Galloway
That's good.
- KSKara Swisher
So tell me what you think with, uh, what's gonna, uh, very briefly, um, uh, uh, what do you think's gonna happen?
- SGScott Galloway
I know what's gonna happen. Uh, Governor Newsom is trying to thread the needle between being responsible and responding to parents' concerns, but at the same time, he's running for president.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
And the last fucking thing he wants right now-
- 38:23 – 46:46
Meta Removes Ice-Tracking Page
- KSKara Swisher
taken down a Facebook page that was sharing information about ICE agents in Chicago after, quote, "Outreach from the Justice Department," as Attorney General Pam Bondi put it. Meta said the page was, quote, "Removed for violating our policies against coordinated harm." This follows Apple and Google's ICE remov- removing ICE tracking apps as we discussed last week. Remember, Republicans were slamming tech companies for bowing to government pressure during the last administration, even taking the case to the Supreme Court. He also, you know, and, and complained about and Mark Zuckerberg has been vocal in the last year about social media censorship going far under, uh, going too far under Biden. Let's listen to what he told Joe Rogan back in January.
- GUGuest
The government is not allowed to-
- KSKara Swisher
Infringe.
- GUGuest
... censor this stuff. So, it, it, some level, I do think that, you know, having people in the administration calling up the guys on our team and yelling at them and cursing and threatening repercussions if we don't take down things that are true is like, uh, it's pretty bad.
- KSKara Swisher
It sounds illegal. Oh my God, he's such a hypocrite, like literally. No one cursed and threatened him and also, he, he's not, it's impossible to threaten him, and secondly, w- what is Pam nicer about it? It's the same thing, and it's the same thing Republicans complained about, and then it's the same thing they're doing. Every accusation is a confession with these people at every moment of the time. I mean, uh, and, and they cave to these Republicans and, of course, you know, possibly cage the Democrats 'cause they're not yelling quite enough, or not nice enough to them. I don't know. What did you think? This was just, ugh, of course. Of course.
- SGScott Galloway
(sighs) I'm sensitive or empathetic to the notion that if the government... I think our tech platforms should cooperate with the government.
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, me too.
- SGScott Galloway
And, uh, but, but at the same time, I, I find of, of all the ugliness, I think I'm, uh, I'm, the thing that used to bother me the most was just the out of con- control corruption around this crypto stuff. Uh, I think that has been bested by the fact that we have a secret police essentially terrorizing, uh, Americans. Because it's not only, it's not only the, the, the terror and the trauma these people have to go through. What it says is, is that America is devoting its energy to, uh, fascism, which is believing that the enemy is within, and it's just a false flag. It's just, it, it, we're not that divided, but we have the most powerful companies at the behest of the president dividing us.
- KSKara Swisher
Well, talk about the IRS thing.
- SGScott Galloway
And I s-
- KSKara Swisher
The, 'cause you mentioned that, the Scott Bessant, that they're gonna investiga- use it to investigate, um, people. You made a joke at the top, but it's in this wheelhouse, correct?
- SGScott Galloway
It's, this is an autocracy. Reward your, the, the, Putin has nothing on Trump. Reward your allies, carve up TikTok, give it to your, your Republican donors, give somebody a tip that you're about to announce ridiculous tariffs again last Friday on China, and this person goes out, buys, uh, several hundred million dollars notionally in, in, in puts against the crypto market, and by the way, closes out the trade at $120 million gain later that day. Again, unless somebody knew that what was coming here, this was the luckiest trade in history.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
Reward your allies and punish your enemies. And at some point, you and me are gonna end up on some list, and the IRS is gonna come for us.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
And when the IRS comes for you, even if you've done nothing wrong, if they're aggressive enough, you're just gonna have to pay a lot of money, it's gonna send a chill, and you're gonna decide, oh, maybe on our podcast, we shouldn't speak, we shouldn't be so negative on Trump or whatever.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. That's the point.
- SGScott Galloway
This is, you don't weaponize... Americans pay for these institutions. The IRS is there to make sure that people pay their taxes. By the way, if you wanna solve or go a long way to solving the deficit, you would increase funding to the IRS 'cause supposedly about $780 billion a year is called the tax gap, which means taxes that are owed that go unpaid, because the Republicans, and this is very deft, they have said rather than, the, the, the biggest tax cut in history is the defunding of the IRS. Because wealthy people have exceptionally complicated tax returns and to audit a wealthy person takes professionals and time and resources, which the IRS no longer has. So, the tax rates are just symbolic because very, very wealthy people with complicated tax returns can be so aggressive now on their taxes because they are, in fact, confident that the IRS doesn't have the resources to come for them, and now he's saying, "I'll weaponize it against my enemies."
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
And the IRS will-
- KSKara Swisher
It's such a waste. It's...
- SGScott Galloway
I mean, it happened at the DOJ. It's gonna, why wouldn't it happen at the IRS?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. I feel like-
- SGScott Galloway
It's happened at the DOJ.
- KSKara Swisher
... like, the FBI should be investigating, like, the, th- th- there's been a lot of stories about how the FBI is like, "We're not doing real crimes, we're just doing what Trump thinks are crimes," or immigration or w- all the resources are going... Same thing here with the IRS. Instead of collecting taxes we are lawfully owed, this is what they're gonna spend their time doing 'cause they, they're gonna know where their bread is buttered. The other part is that these laws against-... e- e- officials, executive officials, including the president, were passed after Nixon tried to do this. So he's trying-
- SGScott Galloway
That's right.
- KSKara Swisher
... to break those up. And they are very explicit, very, um, a lot of... I'm just gonna say, Scott Besson, you better lawyer up if Democrat... Because what you're doing here is suggesting, uh, using the IRS as, as a tool of retribution. There are very clear laws that they're gonna... They, they may run over them right now, but they're not gonna outrun these things. Um, and, and so, uh, I don't believe they will. And so, not just... Trump is also liable here for this if, if, if Democrats... The problem is if Democrats get in power, they're gonna spend all their time rounding up the criminals, right? And with... But how does that help our country in any way? And at some point, they'll have to let some of these-
- SGScott Galloway
I, I, I do think there needs-
- KSKara Swisher
... terrible people go.
- SGScott Galloway
I don't know, I do think there needs to be something along the lines of like a Nuremberg trial. There needs to be... I think the only way we move past this is with some sort of reckoning. And I actually believe the Democrats should be outlining the specific laws, the specific hearings-
- 46:46 – 56:29
Marc Benioff: Send Troops to SF
- KSKara Swisher
CEO Marc Benioff appears to be sort of walking back his recent comments in New York Times where he called for President Trump to send National Guard troops to San Francisco. Benioff tried to clarify his remarks in a post on X saying safety is, quote, "First and foremost, the responsibility of our city and state leaders." He also pointed out correctly that crime in San Francisco is down 30%. Still, he told The Times that the city needs to refund police, even though San Francisco never actually defunded its police force, and it has been doing that. Um, I gotta say, uh, you know, Eve, I have a lot to say about this. There is a thing I sent you from Garry Tan, who irritates me on the, on the regular, but he said the same thing. This is... It's all moving in the right direction, there's all kinds of great statistics of what's happening in San Francisco. And for Marc to weigh in like this, uh, and then saying we have to be nice to him because he gives a lot of money away. Like, you give the money away and shut up, Marc. I'm sorry. If you wanna be charitable, like MacKenzie Bezos, keep your mouth shut about it. You don't need to be thanked and you don't get a pass over, uh, saying something like this, to bring in poli- uh, the, the National Guard to San Francisco. He never is there. And I, and I know a little bit about what happened in here, is he probably... He went so- He was in downtown San Francisco for two seconds, was in a bad part of it, saw some homeless, and then compared it to Washington. He was in a very nice part of Washington and was like, "See what happens when the National Guard comes in?" But what he doesn't know is Washington was like that before he got there, and he was in a bad part of San Francisco. There's no question San Francisco had a real downturn, but it is on the upturn from the work for people like London Breed and now Daniel Lurie, um, who's the mayor. They're trying really hard. And for San Francisco's biggest booster to do a heel turn like this because he wants to be part of the Trump cri- crime family, I, I just... Uh, and by the way, all of those tech bros who were with Trump make fun of him relentlessly, which is... He should know this. Um, and I know he needs to make money and he wants to get in on the gimmies and he wants to be at those dinners. But Marc, this is... (sighs) I couldn't... It, it's, it's not really shocking, but it's also gross is what it is. I, I don't know what else to say. You may have a different opinion, but I don't think you should... This person who's been one of San Francisco's biggest boar- this should be the thing he said. And the last thing, from what I understand, is he did a more problematic interview with another group, um, and he also tagged Mike Moritz, the San Francisco Standard, which I think is doing a great job in San Francisco reporting. Um, and, and Mike Moritz is another venture capitalist who owns... Who's created that publication, which is e- as I said, an excellent publication. But, um, you know, I think that he had a difficult interview with them, and then he turned to the New York Times. And even his, apparently his PR person was like jaw dropping that he did this. I...I like Mark. I, I, I was sh- I was su- I wasn't surprised by it, but it's really incredibly unhelpful, and for you to act like a victim and then demand fealty because you give money away? I'd rather you not give the money away and keep your mouth shut. I don't know what else to say. What do you think?
- SGScott Galloway
I think you have more... I mean, you know Mark better than me and you know San Francisco better than me. Um, but, uh, (sighs) the way I see it is, simply put, I think Mark's a good guy who's very civic-minded. I think he gives money away 'cause he's genuinely a philanthropic person and recognizes-
- KSKara Swisher
Sure.
- SGScott Galloway
... his blessings. And he said something really fucking stupid. I mean, uh, uh, and if I were advising him, and I'm not, uh, and actually, I, I, may, you know what, I may text him. Just say, "I said something stupid. I apologize," and maybe add a little context because, yeah, I don't think it's... I, I think it's, it's a shame because I do think Mark has made a real effort to acknowledge his blessings and be really civic-minded. I've heard a lot of people say that when they can't find resources anywhere, they call Mark, and Mark is an automatic yes. And, uh, he goes out of his way. I, I just, I, I, I just think he's a good man. (laughs) He said something stupid here that is not accurate, and when you get that rich, you can get into a bubble, and maybe he had a bad experience in San Francisco. There are a lot of areas-
- KSKara Swisher
Yep.
- SGScott Galloway
... to my understanding is in San Francisco that feel like a war zone.
- KSKara Swisher
Well, the Tenderloin's-
- SGScott Galloway
But-
- KSKara Swisher
... been bad for decades, but go ahead. Go ahead.
- SGScott Galloway
You know this. You-
- KSKara Swisher
I do.
- SGScott Galloway
... you, you're gonna forget more about the city than I'm, ever gonna go. In 1999, I, I left the board of my company, got divorced, and said to my wife, ex-wife, "You can have our friends. I never wanna come back here again."
- KSKara Swisher
Hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
Um, probably more information than people wanted.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, and I can't stand... San Francisco's my least favorite city. I just, uh, I've just never, I've never really enjoyed it.
- KSKara Swisher
It's all right.
- SGScott Galloway
Anyway, but, but he probably had a bad experience. He's probably trying to pose a little bit for the Trump lights and get in on some of that AI-
- KSKara Swisher
Suites.
- SGScott Galloway
... you know, whatever it might be. But, uh, uh, the first thing I thought when I saw it was I thought it was sad because I do think Mark has spent a lot of time trying to be the good billionaire. (laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
I know.
- SGScott Galloway
And I think a lot of it is genuine. I don't think it's, I don't think it's doing it to try and, to try and, uh, get business or deflect or be righteous or tell nonprofits how to behave. I genuinely believe he is one of the good guys. And I hated to see this 'cause the reality is when you get... It's very easy to enter in your own bubble and, and say stupid things, and he could fix this.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Very simple.
- KSKara Swisher
It's interesting that he won't 'cause he has-
- SGScott Galloway
This was stupid. I apologize.
- KSKara Swisher
He has changed a little bit, I have to say. I think... One of the things... I did a really, uh, famous interview where he said... he compared Facebook to cigarette companies, right? And he was... Uh, you know, and he was one of the few when tr- when they had that Trump Tower thing, he's, he was like, "Can you believe this shit?" Uh, when they... when all the tech billionaires went. And now I think he's seen, um, you know... They're all sort of pigs at the trough, and he's decided to oink. I just don't know what else it is. Like, and that's... So, and maybe he's had a change of heart and he's become more conservative. I don't know. But you can't do Ohana and then say, "Let's bring in the troops," when San Francisco's trying really hard to fix itself and is on the upswing. It's such an-
- SGScott Galloway
And it's getting better, right?
- KSKara Swisher
Yes.
- SGScott Galloway
You just said it's, it's-
- 56:29 – 1:04:42
DOD’s New Press Policy
- KSKara Swisher
News organizations, including Fox News, have declined to sign the Defense Department's new press policy denouncing the regulations in a joint statement. The policy prohibits journalists from gaining information the Defense Department doesn't make available for them. It also revokes Pentagon press credentials for those who don't agree. By sign- by the signing deadline, only OAN, One America News, had agreed to the policy. Uh, they're kind of a organ of the Trump administration, so that makes sense. Um, you know, but I mean, Pete, uh, Hegseth was trying to say, well, it's like the way the White House is, but I, I don't think this is the worst thing for these reporters. They walked out. They can get, they can find these other people. They don't have to wander around. It's, it's a, it's easier if you're wandering around the Pentagon, I guess. But, uh, I think these outlets did the right thing by just saying, "No, we're not signing this thing." And I think this is really... Pete Hegseth is usually, has mangled and bungled this entire thing. What are your thoughts?
- SGScott Galloway
I thought it was a nice moment for the press.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
They all came together, and they said, "We're not gonna put up with this." And, um, it, uh, uh, I think that Secretary Hegseth does not have the confidence or management skills or ability to read the room or the judgment to oversee the most lethal, successful organization in history. Uh, and this is just another example of this. This didn't need to happen. He, he's, he's created more drama. He's handled this poorly. In an effort to control the press, he's created a bunch of bad press for the Pentagon and the administration. This is, you know-
- KSKara Swisher
Stupid.
- SGScott Galloway
... this is a, it's blown up in his face. His, his inability to... his belief that he could muscle around journalists backfired. And again, the whole point of this was to create a sanitized stream of information out of the Pentagon that would only be complementary or frame it in a certain way. And if it wasn't, if it wasn't for journalists, I mean, we'd probably still be in Vietnam. I mean, it's just (laughs) the, the, the, it... Typically, the secretary of defense comes from a civilian background because they've decided that generals have a habit, and not all generals, but generals have a habit of looking for military solutions. And what you need is a, a secretary of defense that understands the private sector and also is, quite frankly, just more rooted in a, a civilian mindset or a geopolitical mindset. And instead, we hired a major who was a TV host to head the secretary-, you know, to become the new secretary of war. And this individual just doesn't have good judgment. So in an attempt to sanitize, politicize, and create a stream of pre-approved press, they've made it worse. They've created a stream of really negative press saying, "This is yet another example of an authoritarian government trying to control the narrative here." And it, uh, kudos to everyone, NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, and Fox all issued a joint statement declining to agree to the new policy.
- KSKara Swisher
Weird. Why this?
- SGScott Galloway
And this was-
- KSKara Swisher
I mean, he's also, uh, lie-testing all the employees, too. He's such a par-... Like, guy, get, get off your whatever substances you're using 'cause it's making you freaky, you know? I don't know.
- SGScott Galloway
I mean, fortunately, this, this authoritarian move was handled so... Like, Trump issuing a crypto coin that increases his net worth by $5 billion the Friday night before inauguration was kinda genius. They, the timing here was so elegant. You know, I've always said this. It's like, it's like we're, this is a mafia family, but unfortunately, unfortunately, you have Michael running the corruption, and you have Fredo running the government.
- KSKara Swisher
Yep.
- SGScott Galloway
Hegseth is Fredo.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, he's Fredo.
- SGScott Galloway
The person running his crypto scams, the person running his-
- KSKara Swisher
His money.
- SGScott Galloway
... tour around the Middle East to get, to get buildings and golf courses and 747s.
- KSKara Swisher
Who's Sonny? Who is Sonny? Sorry.
- SGScott Galloway
Oh, that's a really interesting statement.
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs) Just whatever.
- SGScott Galloway
I love James Caan.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
Um-
- KSKara Swisher
Who's Sonny? Who's that?
- SGScott Galloway
I love Brian Piccolo.
- KSKara Swisher
Uh, uh, who is Sonny? Let's think. Who's like the big (imitates person making sound) ? Who always says idiotic? Besson thinks he's Sonny, but he's not. Remember, "I'm gonna beat everyone up." Can I just say, I just, he seems like, and I'm gonna bring back a word from our youth. Uh, he's such a dork. Like, he's such a dork. Um, the other thing is, um... Let me just say a word very quickly, and then we
- NANarrator
Mm-hmm.
- KSKara Swisher
... do one about access journalism. I was asked by, I was on Katie Drummond's podcast from Wired. I think she's doing an astonishing job at Wired, really reinvigorating that brand. Um, and she asked about access, and do I regret. And I have to say, I really think that...... I sh- you get better stories not having access, actually, if you, if you do really good reporting. And, you know, being at the Wall Street Journal and a little bit at The Times and the Washington Post, they always bring it to you first, right? And then you sort of agree to release it as if you got a scoop, but it isn't 'cause they hand, they hand-delivered it to you. Um, I have to say, I got a lot better after I just said, "Fuck access." Like, "I don't care if they talk to me or not." And I, I would say I did too much of that trading, and every reporter does too much of that access stuff, like, "I'll give you this if you give me this." And I'm so happy that they don't wanna talk to me now, 'cause I can do whatever I want. And I still find out more stuff, because one of the things that Hegseth doesn't understand is reporting has moved on, and there are so many sources and... In the old days, you'd have to either meet someone or get a phone call, which is real traceable, right? And so it was really hard. Now there's so many ways to get to sources and so many ways for them to get to you and to publish on their own, it's a whole different game. So as usual, Hegseth, who was living in the '80s with the way he dresses and does the, you know, Party On garth, um, is, is really, um, way behind in understanding how now they will double down on finding shit about him about and reporting, because it's all there. It's not they're not gonna make it up. But he's... Even people who work for him are like, this one spokesperson who had a falling out with him, is like, "What a fucking idiot. He doesn't understand the modern media age." That's my, that's my access thing. No access is better.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, I think though... But I think you... I empathize with journalists who are trying to... I mean, it, it... You guys have to walk a, a fine line, and that is you wanna get good interviews, and people aren't gonna come on your show if they think they're just-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- SGScott Galloway
... gonna be ambushed.
- 1:04:42 – 1:13:12
Predictions
- KSKara Swisher
uh, we're here for predictions, but I, can I just make a brief one? Kim Kardashian just-
- SGScott Galloway
Of course.
- KSKara Swisher
... launched an interesting new product for SKIMS, a thong adorned with fake pubic hair. It's already selling out. I predict Scott Galloway probably bought 10 or 12 of them, this, this thong. (laughs)
- SGScott Galloway
What? What is this fake pubic hair?
- KSKara Swisher
This SKIMS business is huge. FYI, Kim Kardashian is a great entrepreneur. She works with great entrepreneurs. SKIMS is this under- I guess it's underwear, I guess, and a bunch of other stuff. But the thong is adorned with fake pubic hair. Um, uh, I, I just feel like... (laughs) I wish I could get one for you. That's all I have to say.
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, no, I'm not, I'm not grabbing that one.
- KSKara Swisher
All right.
- SGScott Galloway
Um...
- KSKara Swisher
Your prediction, please.
- SGScott Galloway
Uh, so my prediction is that you're about to see the greatest... So reality TV was huge, um, kind of probably the biggest trend in TV through the, through the aughts. I don't know what was bigger than that, original scripted comedies? I don't know. Uh, the biggest trend in television over the next, uh, streaming media and broadcast television over the next two years, is going to be podcasts repurposed as TV shows.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, I know where you're going.
- SGScott Galloway
And if you look at recently, Netflix's deal with, um, Spotify and podcasts, they've basically said, "Okay..." I mean, how did Netflix win the war? I mean, let's be honest-
- KSKara Swisher
Well, you explained the deal for people who don't know. So...
- SGScott Galloway
Yeah, Spotify and Netflix are partnering to bring podcasts to Netflix. The partnership will bring video versions of 16 different Spotify-exclusive podcasts to Netflix. And this is essentially a shift following Spotify's large investment in the podcast space. They spent billions, uh, for purchasing studios like Parcast, The ringer, and Gimlet Media and signing exclusive deals with people ranging from Joe Rogan to Alex Cooper, and many of these didn't pan out to be profitable. And Spotify learned that the real value of podcasts isn't just in audio, it's in video, and they're not strong in video and YouTube is. What this really... I mean, so YouTube revealed that over a billion people every month watch and listen to podcasts on YouTube. I think about 18% of our listens and 25% of Prop G listens are on a TV, and it's people streaming it off of YouTube. YouTube is the biggest distribution platform for podcasts. Netflix has correctly identified that their competition is not Disney+ or Hulu. They've beaten them, or Paramount+, that, that just doesn't matter. Their competition is YouTube, who commands about 11 or 12% of video listenership, and Netflix is at eight. And YouTube is big, really big. And podcasting, it's kind of the biggest...... it's the biggest distribution platform for what we're doing now. In addition, Netflix, their strategy and how they won is through an arbitrage. And in this instance, it was a geographic arbitrage where they said, "We're not gonna produce stuff. We're gonna spend more money than anyone else, but for spending X, we're gonna get 1.2X 'cause we're gonna produce Squid Games in Seoul, Korea, and we're gonna present-"
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- SGScott Galloway
"... you know, produce Money Heist in Madrid." The next arbitrage that you're gonna see is, effectively podcasts are television with a lower cost means of production.
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- SGScott Galloway
And that is-
- KSKara Swisher
Because I think-
- SGScott Galloway
... the rev-
- KSKara Swisher
... this is amazing special effects going on here, but go ahead.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, if you look at what's happened, and the guy that sort of pioneered this for me. Uh, the first thing I did when I arrived in London, literally when I moved here three and a half years ago, is I got off the plane, and I went to Shortage, and I was on this podcast. It was supposed to be this up and coming kid named Steven Bartlett, who I think is the next Joe Rogan. And he's this super attractive, really great inter- interviewer, 31, 32. And I walked into his podcast studio, and there were 12 people in like a six camera shoot. He said, "This is TV. This is..." And he gets millions of views on... And Chris Williams has a good TV game. Basically the people churning in and out of podcasts is primarily the fulcrum of that churn right now, is your video game. And now what is the problem with streaming media? And what is the problem with cable news? Um, their audiences on cable news are declining. In streaming media, it's a capital war. So all roads lead to the same place, and that is they need a way to create content for a lower cost. And effectively what you have with podcasts, the best podcasts can create 22, 20, you know, 21 minutes or 42 minutes of content for a 30 or 60 minute slot on TV. But they can produce it for 10 to 15% of the cost of the hair, the makeup, the unions, the theater. I mean, it's just, uh, the c- Uh, I did the analysis here. Comcast gets somewhere between two and three hundred thousand dollars in revenue per employee. Pivot right now this year will get easily over a million dollars (laughs) per employee, because our means of production are so much less expensive.
- KSKara Swisher
So you're saying-
- SGScott Galloway
... that things are so much more profitable-
- KSKara Swisher
... our applying our own makeup and having a shitty background is really good business (laughs) . Is what you're... No, you have a good one.
- SGScott Galloway
Well, it's-
- KSKara Swisher
You always have a good background. Can I ask you a specific question? What I thought was interesting-
- SGScott Galloway
Sure.
- KSKara Swisher
... was all these ideas of Netflix moving in, and I know you talked to them for s- second, um, moving into podcasting.
- SGScott Galloway
Yep.
Episode duration: 1:20:42
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