Sue Bird and Megan Rapinoe on the Booming Business of Women's Sports | Pivot

1. 0:00 – 1:15

   Launching “A Touch More”: from IG Live pandemic hangouts to a Vox Media podcast

   1. KSKara Swisher0:00

      Let's bring in our friends of Pivot. Megan Rapinoe and Sue Bird are legendary athletes, Olympic champions, and have been dubbed by GQ the most beloved power couple in sports. I don't know how many of them there are, but anyway, they're also hosts of the new Vox Media podcast, A Touch More. Welcome to the family, Megan and Sue.

   2. MRMegan Rapinoe0:18

      Hi.

   3. SBSue Bird0:19

      Hi. Thanks for having us. Thank you.

   4. KSKara Swisher0:20

      How's it going? How's the podcasting going?

   5. SBSue Bird0:23

      We are just learning on the fly. It's fun though. We're like figuring it out.

   6. KSKara Swisher0:27

      Yeah. All right, so let me, it's, it, let's start with that. The show was originally launched on Instagram during COVID. Explain, explain what you are doing here with the podcast first.

   7. SBSue Bird0:36

      Well yeah, it started, you know, I guess one edition of it, which was just, we were in the pandemic, stuck in our apartment. What's something we could do together that would be fun? So we decided to go on IG Live like every Saturday at whatever time, 7:00. We were drinking, we were having fun, we were talking about current events, all the things. Um, and then fast-forward a couple years, somebody was like, "Hey, would you guys wanna do live shows?" So we were like, "All right, let's try to do that." And then it kind of morphed into what it is now as a podcast, which is definitely more women's sports bent, you know, where culture, politics, fashion, all the things meet women's sports, and we're just kinda figuring it out from there.

   8. MRMegan Rapinoe1:13

      Yeah, shooting from the hip on a lot. It's kinda fun.

2. 1:15 – 1:33

   Do we really need another podcast? Finding a distinct voice in an overcrowded medium

   1. KSKara Swisher1:15

      Yeah, did you feel like everyone has a podcast, you have to have one?

   2. MRMegan Rapinoe1:18

      (laughs)

   3. SBSue Bird1:18

      Kind of, yeah.

   4. MRMegan Rapinoe1:18

      Honestly, that's probably what kept us out of it for so long was that everybody has podcasts. We're like-

   5. SBSue Bird1:22

      I-

   6. MRMegan Rapinoe1:22

      ... "Oh, we don't wanna be that."

   7. SBSue Bird1:24

      I can't tell you-

   8. MRMegan Rapinoe1:25

      But then-

   9. SBSue Bird1:25

      ... how many people will just randomly say like, "Oh, man, does everyone have to have a podcast now?" And now I'm like, "We do too." Sorry.

   10. MRMegan Rapinoe1:31

       But listen to ours.

3. 1:33 – 2:17

   WNBA boom: record demand, new stars, and Sue Bird’s ownership perspective

   1. KSKara Swisher1:33

      Sue, uh, you are of course a WNBA legend, having played with the Seattle Storm for 19 seasons. That's an astonishing, uh, thing. But the WNBA's having a remarkable season with record viewership and attendance, thanks in large part to rookies like Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, who's now out, um, uh, for the s- uh, for the season after an injury. I'd just love your assessment of, of what they should be doing to build the enthusiasm and Megan, I'd love you to jump in, uh, because it's sports, how to get people to do more sports. The New York Liberty has seen 130% year-over-year increase in season ticket membership. They've raised their prices as is, as have a number of WNBA teams. Um, and I also wanna mention Sue joined the ownership group for the Seattle Storm earlier this year. Why don't you start, Sue?

4. 2:17 – 3:48

   Sue Bird: the product was already elite—now the league has crossed the “celebrity line”

   1. SBSue Bird2:17

      Sure. Um, I mean, my answer to this question is that we already did it. We already did it. The, the product on the floor has never been better. It has continued to be kind of like the rock of the league throughout the, the course of my career and then now. So that part, you know, check that box. I think the businesses, obviously we get a lotta help from the NBA, but now each individual team's business is being run with the future in mind, right, not just how we're gonna get by this year. So things have been, the foundation has been built for, for many, many years. And now what you're seeing is we've finally, through all the work we've done, yes, in the last 28 years, which is the league's existence, but also more so in the last like four or five years, now we're at this point where the way I like to look at it, we have crossed this imaginary line of celebrity that usually male athletes automatically cross the minute they're drafted, the minute they play. For some reason, the WNBA was held back. We know those reasons. A lot of them end with an -ism. And so now that we've crossed that line, you're seeing that people are looking at us differently. They're looking at the league differently. When they get offered WNBA tickets, you know, not just celebrities, general, you know, people in general, but when they get offered, now it's like, "Oh, yeah, let me check that out." Whereas used to be like, "Eh, is it worth it?" So somehow, we have crossed that line. And now that we're on the other side, I just imagine business is gonna continue to boom. The only thing that we talk about a lot is wanting people, whether it's corporate pa- partnership, um, networks, um, you name

5. 3:48 – 4:04

   The next growth phase: invest in women’s sports based on potential, not proof

   1. SBSue Bird3:48

      it, they, we want them to look at our potential. We've gotten to that point. Like, we've proven it. We're here. We've done the thing. We've done the thing without your support. Now imagine what it would look like if we had your support. So if people can see our potential, that's where the business is gonna take off in another direction.

6. 4:04 – 5:50

   Megan Rapinoe: excuses ran out—social change, social media, and new money changed the tide

   1. KSKara Swisher4:04

      So Megan, if you could comment 'cause, I think probably the same thing that's happening with soccer and other things, but talk about that invisible line of celebrity and what it does. Like, what, what do you think has happened? Is it because say your, your, your team did so well or people were looking at women's sports in general? Though they don't separ- they separate out men's sports pretty easily.

   2. MRMegan Rapinoe4:23

      I mean, I think it's a, a combination of a lot of things, but I think just in general, the sort of changing tide in the, the country even. I mean, even through the pandemic, obviously, the WNBA's work in getting Reverend Warnock and Senator Warnock, um, elected, but it's also like I honestly feel like the people with the money, and we normally know who, who those people are, ran out of excuses or things that they could (laughs) sort of blame on not investing in, in women's sports. And now, all of them are like flocking, you know? Like (laughs) it's like Bob Iger bought into, um, you know, the team in LA, Angel City FC. So I feel like it's like we can't say that it's not fun anymore. We can't say that like everyone's gay and we don't like that anymore. Like, being overtly racist isn't really that cool anymore, and so I feel like in a lot of ways, it just kinda like crossed this threshold. I think social media was a big part of that. Players could get their own stories out, different ways to disseminate media. I think that increased TV viewership increased, you know, um, investment from not only existing ownership groups but new ownership groups coming in, and it's actually like, "Okay, fine. We'll stop discriminating. Like, we'll just see how the business goes." To your point about the, you know, the sort of potential, men get invested on potential and what they might do eventually all the time. That's sort of the baseline. For women, it's like you have to do the thing, catch lightning in the bottle.

   3. KSKara Swisher5:50

      Scott?

7. 5:50 – 7:25

   Sports as asset classes: where value is rising, and the limits of maximizing men’s leagues

   1. SGScott Galloway5:50

      This is more a question m- maybe for both of you, and bring Sue in. I think of different leagues or different sports as asset classes. Some are increasing in value. Some are decreasing in value. Outside of the WNBA or football, where you both are gonna have a bias, what sports, as you look across the landscape, or what leagues do you think are increasing the most in value and also decreasing the most in value? I've heard the NFL has an aging problem, for example, or its viewers are aging. Any thoughts on which assets are increasing or decreasing?

   2. MRMegan Rapinoe6:18

      I think it's, I mean, I, I feel like in male sports honestly, the, the screw has been turned and is-... being turned to milk every little last thing, and they're thinking, "Okay, can we get augmented reality in?" Obviously, the betting has been huge. But yeah, I mean, I, I think all women's sports is, is on the up, because it's been so underinvested in, and there's such a, um, an investment gap. There's, there's so much room to grow across media platforms, live platform, like all of it. Um, I mean, the NFL just seems to rake in money, but I, I just have to believe at some point, like, that's just gonna run out. I mean, at, at some point, it's like we're, it's not gonna be okay that, you know, however many percentage of the players have brain damage. That just feels like (laughs) unsustainable.

   3. SBSue Bird7:03

      Yeah. Oftentimes, when I think of this question, not, not worded the way you worded it, um, I'll look at the NFL, the NBA, whatever it is, and I'll be like, "What's gonna take this down?" Or, "What's gonna-"

   4. SGScott Galloway7:13

      Yeah.

   5. SBSue Bird7:13

      "... decrease this value?" Or, "What's gonna change player salary?" I-

   6. SGScott Galloway7:15

      We keep waiting, and it doesn't happen.

   7. MRMegan Rapinoe7:16

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SBSue Bird7:16

      Yeah, it doesn't. I don't think it, I actually don't think it will. I think, just to Megan's point, other assets are gonna grow and reach those levels, hopefully.

8. 7:25 – 8:33

   Athletes and social media: self-expression vs. the ‘hellscape’ of comments and trolls

   1. KSKara Swisher7:25

      Yeah. Okay. Let me change the topic. We talk a lot on our show about the negative impact of social media on kids and teens. But it's an issue for athletes as well. Um, you recently talked on the podcast about the trolls that athletes face. Megan said that negativity shouldn't be the default, but it is. Um, do you think the, you're, you guys are very active on social media. Do you think the pros outweigh the cons when it comes to athletes on social media? And talk a little bit about how you use it yourself.

   2. MRMegan Rapinoe7:49

      I feel like I use it as a way to express myself. I'm not really looking to get anything, like, back from it, necessarily, whether it's comments or whatever. But-

   3. SBSue Bird7:58

      But you're, Megan's unique in that.

   4. MRMegan Rapinoe7:59

      Yeah, I am very unique in that. And I was also like, I came to it a little bit older. I feel like my brain wasn't like formed around it like kids are now. I really, like, feel for them. It's so, like, woven into the fabric of their upbringing and their, like, social understanding of, of how to be, and it's really difficult. Um, I always just suggest (laughs) athletes, like, n- don't get in your comments. Like, be in the real world. Like, you have people around you, friends, family, advisors, all the things. Like, stay in that world. But also, I understand that sometimes that's, like, impossible to do.

   5. SBSue Bird8:31

      Yeah.

   6. MRMegan Rapinoe8:31

      But it's kind of a hellscape in there.

9. 8:33 – 9:29

   Sue Bird on balance: a ‘fake place with real consequences’—but crucial for women’s sports growth

   1. SBSue Bird8:33

      Yeah, it's a, it's a fake place with real consequence. And so I think you always have to have some sort of balance in that. And, and when you, whenever you feel as an individual, the way Megan was wording it, whenever you feel like that balance is out of whack, you've got to find a way to recenter it. Um, because I do think, again, coming from the lens of a, of a, of a woman's athlete in this country, um, especially a basketball player, especially with the WNBA, it has 100% percent helped us grow.

   2. MRMegan Rapinoe9:03

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSue Bird9:03

      It has helped individuals have brands. It has helped us get messages out. Is, it, it has helped us bring awareness to certain things. Without it, I don't know if the league is where it is right now. So, it's hard for me to say that it's a bad thing, but then also, it's a cesspool. So, you have to find that balance. And that is the, the tricky part. I feel like that's where I'm hopeful that every, I don't know, eight-year-old right now is taking, they have like a-

   4. MRMegan Rapinoe9:27

      Yeah.

   5. SBSue Bird9:27

      ... it's like social studies, English, social media.

10. 9:29 – 10:12

    Platform accountability: why internet companies haven’t stopped the degradation of discourse

    1. MRMegan Rapinoe9:29

       But it's also like, I find it really frustrating, like, there's the, and you guys talk about this all the time, this is well-known, like, the, the media companies and the internet companies have done almost nothing to stop what they know is happening. And now, it's like, yeah, I mean, cat's kind of out of the bag, like, how do you roll back, whether it's bots or trolls or just like the, the sort of devolving of conversation or decorum or norm or, like, kindness that is now just the norm on the internet? Like, the norm is just to, like, whatever kind of quip you can get back, whatever kind of, like, little negative thing that someone can type, whether it's a fan or someone on social media or whatever it is, like, that seems the default. But it's like, where's their responsibility?

11. 10:12 – 12:05

    Being a power couple in business: boundaries, therapy, and time management

    1. SGScott Galloway10:12

       It's always fascinated, or I should say, I don't understand and think it's a bad idea when couples go into business together. I feel as if it's putting all your eggs in one basket.

    2. MRMegan Rapinoe10:22

       Thanks. (laughs)

    3. SGScott Galloway10:23

       Yeah.

    4. MRMegan Rapinoe10:23

       The eggs were already there. (laughs)

    5. SBSue Bird10:25

       (laughs)

    6. MRMegan Rapinoe10:25

       Mine are actually frozen. Yeah.

    7. SGScott Galloway10:26

       But I, I guess the question is, a lot of people do it, and it works out really well for a lot of people. Do you have any best practices or rules to try and maintain the health of the business and your personal relationship, given that you're obviously just so involved with each other, you know, during work hours and non-work hours?

    8. MRMegan Rapinoe10:46

       Well, we definitely-

    9. SBSue Bird10:47

       We're figuring it out.

    10. MRMegan Rapinoe10:47

        Yeah, we're, we're figuring it out on the fly. Um, we talk about a lot of our business stuff with our couple's therapist.

    11. SBSue Bird10:52

        Yeah.

    12. MRMegan Rapinoe10:52

        And, uh, I'm sure in our individual therapy as well. I know I do.

    13. SBSue Bird10:57

        It comes up.

    14. MRMegan Rapinoe10:57

        Um, we have really great people that work with us. And we're, we're trying it, like, who, it could go up in flames. And if it does, we're gonna pull this clip and be like, "Scott was right."

    15. SBSue Bird11:06

        (laughs)

    16. MRMegan Rapinoe11:07

        And it could all just, like, come shattering down. But I feel like, I don't know, we're also enjoying it, and it's fun. And we get to talk about something that we really love in women's sports, which is something obviously we both played, and, you know, it's such a big part of our relationship. And we're just, we're just out here giving it away.

    17. SBSue Bird11:23

        Yeah, I think the time management of it all is, is maybe the most difficult. Um, like, when are we working? When are we not? 'Cause a lot of our lives is what you're seeing on this podcast. Like, this is what we talk about in our day-to-day lives. So, it's, at times, it's like, "Okay, when do we shut this off? When are we just chilling? When are we..." 'Cause that's the only time for me personally, I'm just telling you this for the first time.

    18. MRMegan Rapinoe11:42

        Hmm.

    19. SBSue Bird11:42

        That's the only time me personally where it gets blurry or kind of like, "Ugh, I don't wanna talk about this right now. We, we just talked about it for the last 12 hours."

    20. MRMegan Rapinoe11:50

        Yeah.

    21. SBSue Bird11:50

        But then simultaneously, this is, you, you're, what you see right now is, like, this is it. This is our lives. We just happen to have a camera and a microphone in front of our faves- in front of our faces. But then at the same time as athletes, our whole lives have been that. So, this isn't, like, a new dynamic.

12. 12:05 – 12:18

    Wrap-up and plug: where to hear more from Bird and Rapinoe

    1. KSKara Swisher12:05

       Anyway, uh, thank you so much, Megan Rapinoe and Sue Bird. Uh, if you want to hear more expert analysis of the business of sports from Megan and Sue, check out A Touch More.

Episode duration: 12:19