Trump Ruined the Reflecting Pool. Now He's Arresting People for It | Pivot

Kara Swisher 0:00 He's blaming everybody, and it's the same thing. "Oh, it's vandals, it's this, it's that." It's him. He's just a disaster. [upbeat music] Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, live from the south of France.

Scott Galloway 0:18 Bonsoir, Kara.

Kara Swisher 0:20 Bonsoir. Bonsoir. How are you?

Scott Galloway 0:21 Ah, hello. How are you?

Kara Swisher 0:23 Hello. Oh. Oh. That's our entire French. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 0:26 That's it. We're done.

Kara Swisher 0:28 That's it. We've got a lot to get to today. There's so much going on-

Scott Galloway 0:31 A lot going on

Kara Swisher 0:31 ... including Greenwatergate.

Kara Swisher 0:32 Get it? Greenwatergate.

Scott Galloway 0:34 Greenwatergate. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 0:34 I told you this thing would blow up. President Trump says it will be- he said it will begin fixing the seriously vandalized Reflecting Pool, vandalized by him. Trump is claiming, without evidence, he's lying, that vandals cut a 250-foot gash in the pool's new lining and poured corrosive and destructive chemicals into the water. This is nonsense. There's cameras everywhere in Washington, just so you know. He said multiple people have been arrested, tied to the alleged destruction. This is just nonsense. One of them was a former Olympian who was accused by the Park Police of destroying government property. He says he reached down to touch a strip of peeling paint. I was down there, Scott. It was peeling. It... [laughs] Nobody was touching it. Everyone was sort of shocked and amazed by how grotesque it was, 'cause, you know, you go down there, I've gone down there quite a bit, and I've never really noticed the, the skyminess of it, and it really is. It's green. All this paint's peeling off, so he's lying. And Trump, of course, should be accused of vandalizing a lot of Washington, whether it was the East Wing or the, the grass in front of the White House for his, his, uh, his party. You know, it's just ridiculous, but it's taking on a life of its own. It really is, in terms of a, of a metaphorical thing, or maybe you don't think that?

Scott Galloway 1:41 No. I mean, the president is caught between two straits of water. It's just-

Kara Swisher 1:45 Yeah. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 1:46 And-

Kara Swisher 1:47 We'll get to that in a minute

Scott Galloway 1:48 ... I, I, I personally... I think this is kind of a non-story. America's turning 250, and we've managed to turn a reflecting pool into a culture war. I just... For God's sakes, just fix it and let's move on. I don't, I don't... I, I kinda... I... You know, they, he, th- they are lying and saying that it's sabotage and vandalism. It isn't. It's incompetence. It's a government project turning into another government project, and the Democrats love to talk about... I, I think we have bigger fish to fry. I, I, I'm kind of-

Kara Swisher 2:15 I would agree, but I don't think it's a bad... I think people get it in a second, 'cause it's, again, as I told you, it's a symbol, and it's also the, the guy who did it is another piece of grift.

Scott Galloway 2:23 100%. Zero bid contract. Yeah.

Kara Swisher 2:26 And it looks incompetent. It looks incompetent. And, you know, one of the jokes online was that, you know, Washington is now Scar after, as, after he took over, uh, took over, uh, on, uh, The Lion King. Um, but, uh, but it, it... There is more to that because then you link it, I think, with Iran too, which continues to be, like, a problem. Like, here's-

Scott Galloway 2:46 Yeah

Kara Swisher 2:47 ... you know, they keep going back and forth. And that is the real problem. It is, but it's symbolic of just complete idiocy. Like, like, really stupid. We'll get to some other stupid things coming up. But, um, i- it, talk a little about... I know, I noticed you were talking about a lot online, um, the, uh, MOU, which seems, the Iranians seem to have us by the short hairs. That's what it feels like to me. I don't know about you. But they, they're not doing anything. They're just dragging us on, I guess, and being rude to J.D. Vance, which I completely think they should be.

Scott Galloway 3:19 T- Trump has delivered on his promise of unconditional surrender. The problem is, we're the ones unconditionally surrendering.

Kara Swisher 3:29 Right.

Scott Galloway 3:30 It is insane. Anyone who can do math, anyone who understands a memo of understanding, anyone who can look at their activities, in, in my mind, it is just so incredibly clear and tragic what is going on. The IRGC recognizes he's left. The midterms are coming up. [laughs] It is a-

Kara Swisher 3:49 He's done

Scott Galloway 3:49 ... very unpopular war. He got no support from the public, from Congress-

Kara Swisher 3:52 Right

Scott Galloway 3:52 ... from other nations. He underestimated the resilience of, of, of the missile systems. He has handed them something more powerful than a nuclear weapon, and that is an ability to choke the carotid artery of the global economy in the Strait of Hormuz. They know we are out.

Kara Swisher 4:10 Right.

Scott Galloway 4:10 And-

Kara Swisher 4:10 They do

Scott Galloway 4:11 ... they, all they have to do is delay an obfuscation. It's just delay. Every day that goes back, it's less likely we're gonna go back in with military action.

Kara Swisher 4:19 No, he can't. He really can't.

Scott Galloway 4:21 They have to operate between, uh, humor them, agree to meet in Switzerland, don't get a deal done. They have the perfect false flag. "Oh, uh, Israel's bombed Lebanon. You're not le- l- lead... Uh, you're not living up to your part of the agreement."

Kara Swisher 4:38 Right.

Scott Galloway 4:38 "We're out."

Kara Swisher 4:39 Right.

Scott Galloway 4:39 They have no intention of giving anything back, and the only thing that's gonna come out of this, besides Trump's, Trump, Trump's incompetence and J.D. Vance, uh, you know, having about as long a presidential run as Senator Gillibrand, is that we are gonna look back on this and recognize that one of the greatest acts of diplomacy was the JCPOA.

Kara Swisher 5:00 Right, which was o- And Obama's saying so. He's doing a lot of press right now around it, by the way, the comparative.

Scott Galloway 5:06 We had Russia and China sign, or they were co-signatories of the agreement. We can't get Israel to sign this agreement, much less European nations. It... We had limits at 3.7 enrichment. They're already at 60. There's no cons-

Kara Swisher 5:18 Very little money

Scott Galloway 5:19 ... there's no constraints around nuclear enrichment in the agreement. We... He keeps saying all these bullshit threats, "Oh, we'll, we'll open the Strait of Hormuz."

Kara Swisher 5:29 "We'll get you. We'll get you." I know.

Scott Galloway 5:31 The, the Strait of Hormuz would take, to keep it open, would take two carrier strike forces, paratroopers and Marines on the ground on Iranian soil. That is not gonna happen. The, the net-net here is the following: America comes out of this much weaker, Iran much stronger, and we're gonna look back and, and realize that the JCPOA was one of the more impressive acts of diplomacy of the last 50 years.

Kara Swisher 5:54 Yep, except they continue to deny it. It's really... Like, it's the same thing with the Reflecting Pool. And I... The, the reason why I'm harping on it, it's the same thing. It's the same kind of like, "No, this is what's happening." You know, you've seen all these communications from the White House, and we look... It looks so ridiculous when it's the Reflecting Pool, but it's the same exact communications. Um, you know, they're blaming The New York Times, they're blaming, you know, for the coverage. They're bla- he's blaming Obama, he's blaming everybody, and it's the same thing. Oh, it's vandals, it's this, it's that. It's him. He's just a disaster. And again, I point to, finally someone is starting to write about it, his mental state, which seems demented, and we'll get into that a little bit more. Um, but the way he's sort of lashing out in this crazy way when it's all his fault seems... And of course, blaming j- poor J.D. Vance. I mean, I never feel that sorry for that guy, but I gotta say, he's been dragged. He's been, he's been tensed. I don't know what else to say. He's sort of stuck holding the bag here and try- having to defend it, and it's worse than when Kamala Harris even lightly said, "I wouldn't change a thing" on The View, right? Sort of the same exact thing. So, I mean, it's disastrous for the Republicans in so many ways because he doesn't have an out. So my worry, because I think he's, he lashes out, like arresting pe- Jeanine Pirro arresting people for this thing? This is like, "Let me tell you, Jeanine, I was down there. I didn't touch the strip of paint, but it was stripping off by, all by itself," um, is gonna be a disaster. These people are soiling themselves in the most ridiculous of ways. And in, and in Iran it's dan- With the Reflecting Pool, it's just stupid, although costly to the fed- to, to us as taxpayers. The same thing with the rest of the mess he's making, but, um, in this case, it's disastrous. I mean, really, truly disa- I don't know what, how anyone's gonna get us out of this 'cause we got two more years of this lunatic as the attorney.

Scott Galloway 7:45 Yeah, agreed.

Kara Swisher 7:45 I don't even know. What would ha- what could happen? He gets sidelined? What? I don't know. Like, he's not going anywhere, even if he loses power.

Scott Galloway 7:53 If Democrats take Congress, have the power of, of subpoena, and hopefully, if they were to get back Senate, at a minimum, there'd be enough power to get in the way of a lot of this stuff.

Kara Swisher 8:03 Except that Iran will then develop a nuclear weapon. I feel like they now-

Scott Galloway 8:07 Oh, Iran. Yeah

Kara Swisher 8:07 ... you know what I mean? Like, that's where the worry i- That's the only thing we all agree on. Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon, but wow, we've given them a chance here. He's, this is... And then the economy itself. Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, resignations, feuds, and more, and we'll get into all the European political drama. [gentle music] Support for this show comes from Cohere. As AI advances, one thing matters more than ever: staying in control. Most AI comes with strings attached, like sharing your data and infrastructure or compromising your independence. With Cohere, you don't have to give up control to gain capability. You can have both. Cohere started seven years ago with a bold mission: scale enterprise intelligence without sacrificing sovereignty. Their solution? AI leaves you in charge of your data and infrastructure, allowing you to maintain your competitive edge, is designed for enterprises, governments, and organizations that refuse to give up control in pursuit of innovation. From frontier models to out-of-the-box tools, Cohere gives you everything you need to build and deploy secure, scalable AI that drives growth and delivers results. Their platform is designed around your business with models that can be customized and trained on your proprietary data so the solution is uniquely yours. And control doesn't stop at customization. Cohere is built with multi-layered protections, access, and industry-certified security standards that help safeguard your data while supporting privacy compliance and other requirements. As AI continues to transform every industry, Cohere gives you the power to put it to work today on your terms. Take charge of your AI with Cohere. To learn more, visit cohere.com/vox.

Scott Galloway 9:42 [gentle music] Support for the show comes from Hims. Anyone who's ever tried to lose weight can tell you how hard it is because it's not just about getting it off, it's about keeping it off for the long haul. Thankfully, there's weight loss by Hims. It's designed to support you in your journey to lose weight and keep it off. And now Hims is offering access to an affordable range of FDA-approved GLP-1 medications, including the Wegovy pill and the Wegovy pen. With Wegovy at Hims, you can lose up to 20% or more of your body weight when combined with diet and exercise. It can help you regulate your appetite and eat less, so success is within reach. Plus, Wegovy is the first-ever GLP-1 pill for weight loss, so there are no needles needed. Hims has everything online. You'll connect with a licensed provider who will determine if treatment is right for you. Ready to reach your goals? Visit hims.com/pivot to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you. That's H-I-M-S .com/pivot, hims.com/pivot. Weight loss by Hims is not available in all 50 states. Wegovy is the registered trademark of Novo Nordisk A/S. To get started and learn more, including important safety information, Wegovy clinical study information, and restrictions, visit hims.com.

Kara Swisher 10:44 [screen whooshes] Scott, we're back with big news here in Europe. There's a lot going on. Uh,

Kara Swisher 10:48 Keir Starmer just announced he's stepping down as Britain's prime minister, giving into mounting pressure from his own party. Uh, Starmer said he'll stay in office until a new party leader is selected, and likely to be this guy named Andy Burnham, former mayor of Greater Manchester, very popular guy. Trump got ahead of the announcement over the weekend, noting Starmer would step down and saying he had failed badly on immigration energy policy. Also, a lot of attacks from Elon Musk, by the way. Uh, Starmer's resignation comes almost 10 years to the day since the Brexit vote. The UK has had six prime ministers in that time.

Scott Galloway 11:17 [laughs] I love that.

Kara Swisher 11:19 It's crazy. Um, talk a little bit about... Y- you live there. What has happened here? Obviously, he was gonna lose an election, and he had won in a landslide ver- in a very short time ago.

Scott Galloway 11:29 I think a lot of it comes down to economics, and that is, uh... I mean, it's very strange. Uh, Mykonos, and St. Barts, and Hawaii are parts of those nations, but they're not. They're islands that have an entirely different culture. I feel that way about London. I think islands-- I think London's essentially an island in the UK 'cause if you look at the UK, seven out of 10 IPOs in the last 10 years are below their offering price. GDP was supposed to take a 4 to 6% hit from Brexit, the second-greatest own goal in geopolitical history behind our entry into Iraq. You have, now, the UK as a whole has a lower average household income than Mississippi. And then there's London, which is essentially where the richest people in the world park capital and have a European lifestyle with actually, without actually engaging in the UK economy. I mean, it's just, it's a very strange place. Since I have moved there- A-after we have a new UK, a new prime minister in several weeks. I've been there four years. This will be my fifth prime minister.

Kara Swisher 12:28 Fifth, right? You had-

Scott Galloway 12:28 Yeah, I mean-

Kara Swisher 12:29 ... conservatives. There was a bunch of con- there was a conservative guy. There was Boris.

Scott Galloway 12:33 It, it's, it's not politics, it's speed dating. It's beginning to feel like a LinkedIn jobs page. It's just so, you know, it, it... But without growth, until they figure out a way, I, I thought they should do backs it. They should reintegrate into the European economy because without growth, all of this gets harder and harder. And the weird, the quagmire here, or the, not the quagmire, the enigma is that the UK has all the underpinnings of a great democracy and economic growth engine. It has incredible universities, rule of law, culture compounds. Everybody in the world, uh, wants to or wouldn't mind the idea of living in the UK for a few years. It's a wonderful place, and yet they c- la- OpenAI, Anthropic, and SpaceX are gonna raise $150 billion in fresh capital. The UK raised a total of $2 billion last year in its entire IPO market. They just can't get out of their own way, and Brexit, and just to go to politics, since World War II, no individual has done more harm to Britain, in my view, than Nigel Farage, who might be a prime minister at some point. So I have w- stayed woefully ignorant to UK politics, but it is difficult for me to understand how the foundation of success, how they continue to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory here, and I gotta think it's something, it's, uh, gotta be a big, bold move. Even, even the non-dom thing, we kicked out, basically they chased a lot of billionaires out of the UK, and I understand the sentiment. It's let's tickle the middle class sensors of people who are angry, but at the same time, the treasury's gone down because a lot of wealthy people are leaving, and that reduces your tax base to, you know, provide for the NHS and these social services. But this is, I mean, UK politics, and then what you have, you have the rise of populism. They have had real problems. You know, it, it, to a certain extent, it's a metaphor for the West. You have, or when the West goes wrong, stagnant wages, housing shortages, immigration anxiety, and institutional distrust. And it's j-

Kara Swisher 14:36 You also have a lot of, uh, meddling by Elon Musk in terms of, of backing a bunch of very violent people against immigrants.

Scott Galloway 14:42 The American export is political divisiveness.

Kara Swisher 14:45 Right. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 14:45 [chuckles] It's not helping.

Kara Swisher 14:46 But it's Elon himself that's meddling quite a bit.

Scott Galloway 14:49 Yeah, but then J.D. Vance comes over and lectures them about free speech. It's like we shouldn't, uh, you know, in my view, Americans should be here saying, "You're our greatest ally. Uh, how can we help? What can we do together? How do we open more free trade agreements instead?" Instead, Musk shows up and says, "Rise up, white people," or, or, I mean, essentially-

Kara Swisher 15:07 That Tommy guy, I forget his name

Scott Galloway 15:07 ... and J.D. Vance comes over and waves his finger at him around free speech. And now they've got to figure out a way to, to, to basically untangle the technology. Uh, uh, their nu- Britain's nuclear arsenal runs on American technology, and all of a sudden Europe is waking up and going, "What the fuck?" They have become way-

Kara Swisher 15:26 The conservatives, the conservatives aren't popular either, and Farage kind of is. It's like nobody's popular. It's a real-

Scott Galloway 15:32 Yeah

Kara Swisher 15:33 ... it's a-

Scott Galloway 15:33 Very angry nation. But when you don't have growth, people's prosperity goes down, and they just get angrier and angrier. So I, I, I, again, not to talk too much about, uh, uh, money, but they have got to figure out a way to get growth going again.

Kara Swisher 15:48 How would you do that?

Scott Galloway 15:48 When, when your growth grows, you have more money, you have more flexibility, you have more power abroad, you have more... You can't have a powerful nation that's shrinking its GDP. And again, I was in Cannes when Brexit happened and the pound crashed. It's cost them 8% of their GDP, which is like taking hundreds of billions of pounds into the street and just lighting it on fire.

Kara Swisher 16:08 Yeah, they may return to the... I mean, it's interesting 'cause Europe is getting more and more unified. Speaking

Kara Swisher 16:13 of which, Trump's latest feud is with one of his pals, basically his European Marjorie Taylor Greene, Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni. This spat started after Trump... This is so strange. Again, I'm sorry. This, this guy's lost his mind. After Trump claimed Meloni, Meloni, uh, begged him for a, Meloni, it was Meloni, uh, begged him for a photo of last week's G7 summit in France, Meloni responded with a video on Instagram, which was quite remarkable, calling Trump's claims totally fabricated and saying, "Italy and I never beg." She also accused Trump of being more accommodating to the enemies of the West than his own allies. Trump then doubled down, saying Meloni is doing poorly in Italy with her level of popularity, which she fired back, "My popularity is none of your concern. I suggest you focus on yours," pointing to his bad, his lowering, increasingly lowering popularity. Um, boy, this woman, even though, let me just, let's be clear, she's anti-gay marriage, she's anti-trans, she's anti-immigrant. She's not, she's Marjorie Taylor Greene, essentially. This is the European version of her. And at the same time, I, I was like, "Go Giorgia." Like, it was kind of interesting that he continues. Again, the sign of someone who is having some cognitive problems, it seemed like to me. Not, this is u- usually he's such a-

Scott Galloway 17:25 He's always been like this

Kara Swisher 17:26 ... he's always been an asshole-

Scott Galloway 17:27 He's always been an asshole

Kara Swisher 17:27 ... but not this much of an asshole. Like, and, and she just took it to him, which I found really int- I mean, obviously, it helps her in Italy 'cause he's not popular there, and he's not popular anywhere in Europe now. And they were tight as ticks, if you recall, you know?

Scott Galloway 17:42 But this is, again, uh, greatness is in the agency of others, and European countries have been our strongest allies. We share same values, same democracies. We've worked together. We've had incredible... The post-World War II world was largely shaped by America and European values. And Trump decides, again, he's figured out a way to manage to feud with and alienate, feud with and alienate allies while simultaneously praising adversaries. And we've spent 80 years developing these alliances, and Trump treats them like some sort of fantasy football league. And Meloni, to her credit, she remains, her popularity is actually greater than most Western leaders And picking-- And then he decides to pick a fight with one of the few European leaders who actually likes him. And, uh, uh, is this-- And, and none of this-

Kara Swisher 18:36 She went at him on the Pope, too. She doesn't much like his comments on the Pope either.

Scott Galloway 18:41 Yeah, well, I mean, come on. Uh, uh, criticizing the Pope is like if someone-

Kara Swisher 18:45 Not in Italy he goes to there

Scott Galloway 18:46 ... in Italy.

Kara Swisher 18:46 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 18:46 You just don't do-- You don't do that. None of this makes any sense, Kara.

Kara Swisher 18:50 Doesn't make sense.

Scott Galloway 18:50 None of it makes any sense. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 18:51 None of it. I believe her. Believe the woman. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 18:55 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 18:55 I totally believe her.

Scott Galloway 18:56 I believe her.

Kara Swisher 18:57 He's such a creep. But this is interesting 'cause she's a really-- 'cause she's really-- If you actually look at a lot of her policies, they're pretty heinous in terms of how she behaves. But she's sort of shifted. I mean, she used Trump to sort of get there, and now she's cutting him loose, like, like, more than others, actually. The others haven't been quite as critical of him. Uh, Starmer certainly hasn't, right? Or any of them have. I don't know. The, the Germans haven't. This-- She's really taken it to the wall.

Scott Galloway 19:25 Yeah, I think, I think, I think most of them have decided wait him out. Uh, it's a smart move for Meloni 'cause she comes across as a leader and not afraid and-

Kara Swisher 19:31 Yeah

Scott Galloway 19:32 ... uh, you know, I-

Kara Swisher 19:33 And he's not popular

Scott Galloway 19:33 ... good for her.

Kara Swisher 19:34 It's not, not good for her. We look terrible once again. By the way, it's really interesting to be in Europe because a lot of people are saying, "You don't like Trump, do you?" to me. [laughs] I'm like, "No."

Scott Galloway 19:44 Really?

Kara Swisher 19:44 No. Yeah, a lot of the Europeans sort of test it. When we were in Paris several different times, um, like, "Hmm, you're not a fan of Trump." I'm like, "Hardly." Like, "Hello, lesbian family." Like, no. Um, and so they asked, several Europeans, there was a tour guide at the Eiffel Tower or whatever, were sort of like poking to see, um, if we liked him, which obviously we look like an ad for not liking Trump. And anyway, um, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, new details about how Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos tried to cozy up to Trump. This is an interesting story. [gentle music] Support for Pivot comes from the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Quick reminder, America started a rebellion.

Scott Galloway 20:25 Uh, yeah, we fired a king claiming divine authority.

Kara Swisher 20:28 And then wrote a constitution with no mention of God.

Scott Galloway 20:31 Which is a big deal.

Kara Swisher 20:32 The whole separation of church and state thing, as you know.

Scott Galloway 20:35 And those lines are blurring.

Kara Swisher 20:37 You see it in things like America Prays event on May seventeenth, where the government starts uniting with religion.

Scott Galloway 20:43 Which typically or historically doesn't end well for freedom.

Kara Swisher 20:47 And the Freedom From Religion Foundation is working to protect that line.

Scott Galloway 20:50 So help us protect the First Amendment.

Kara Swisher 20:53 Go to FFRF.us/pivot or text PIVOT to five eleven five eleven to learn more and join. Remember to text PIVOT to five eleven five eleven.

Scott Galloway 21:04 Because the First Amendment protects all of us and it protects you. Text rates may apply. [upbeat music] Support for the show comes from Vanta. What's growing across businesses even faster than AI? AI risk. Every new tool your team adds, every vendor launching AI features, every new integration can introduce risk into your company, and most security programs weren't built for the speed of AI adoption. That's where Vanta comes in. Vanta is the leading agentic trust platform trusted by more than sixteen thousand fast-moving companies like Ramp, Cursor, and Harvey to keep them audit-ready at all times. And now, Vanta is helping companies like yours stay on top of the risks that emerge between audits, across vendors, AI tools, and your entire environment. The Vanta agent works like a twenty-four/seven GRC engineer in the background, spotting issues, drafting remediations, and cutting vendor assessment time by up to fifty percent. Whether you're a fast-growing startup or a global enterprise, Vanta is here to help you automate your security and compliance and earn improved trust. Get started today at vanta.com/pivot. That's V-A-N-T-A.com/pivot.

Kara Swisher 22:11 [upbeat music] Support for this show comes from Teleport. In the AI era, one of the biggest questions is how to contain agent behavior in your production infrastructure. In Teleport's survey of more than two hundred infrastructure leaders, the company found that those confident in their AI deployments have more than twice the incident rate of those that aren't, seventy-two percent versus thirty-three percent. Let's talk security basics. The most frequent causes of data breaches are human error and compromised credentials. But in the AI era, the challenge is that agents with broad privileges can find these credentials and gain access to sensitive data. Teleport establishes a unified identity layer for humans, machines, and agents that is cryptographically backed, which enables agents to be controlled and contained with the same rigor that you apply to other actors in your infrastructure. Security is complicated, but with Teleport, it doesn't have to be. Download the free report at goteleport.com/pivot. [upbeat music] Scott, we're back.

Kara Swisher 23:10 President Trump reportedly took frequent jabs at Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos as they tried to build ties with his administration. That's according to a new book by New York Times reporters Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan, who I'm gonna have on the "On" podcast soon. The president, uh, told guests stories about Zuckerberg and Bezos kissing his ass, which they were, saying, "You would not believe the texts I got from these tech guys. I gotta show you." Among them, Zuckerberg sent Trump a photo of a letter written by one of his young children, which said they were looking forward to a golden age of America, a Trump rally slogan. Bezos, meanwhile, reportedly told Trump that The Washington Post was one of his worst investments and that people there are really terrible. Oh my God. I mean, honestly. And then, of course, he, he was showing it to Elon too. They all made fun of them and, you know... Anyway, it was kind of-- I mean, I-- By the way, on the other side, they insult him behind his back too. But w-what, what is the-- What has happened here from your perspective when you were reading sort of this stuff? I'm not surprised by one bit of it whatsoever. Um, but I don't know if they'll get their reputations back. We always thought Trump was a jerk, but this is really kind of-

Scott Galloway 24:14 Yeah, but it represents a flip that is, that is sort of represents something, in my view, kind of dark, and that is politicians used to kiss the ass of billionaires because billionaires had money and politicians wanted to get elected, and it became kind of a pay-for-play thing because of Citizens United. But when you think about this, Bezos and Zuckerberg are worth hundreds of billions of dollars. And yet they both still feel compelled to kiss the ass of an eighty-year-old real estate developer.

Kara Swisher 24:40 Right. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 24:41 Capital always chases power, but Silicon Valley spent twenty years telling us government didn't matter, and then everyone started flying to Washington. And what this signals around the dark part is the following. If you're worth a quarter of a trillion dollars and still kissing the ass of the president, you're not... This has moved from buying influence to renting protection. This is a transition for a pay-for-play democracy to something even worse, and that is a mob protection racket-

Kara Swisher 25:13 Yeah. That's a very good point

Scott Galloway 25:15 ... where if I want, if I wanna hold onto my wealth, I gotta start paying for protection, because anybody that doesn't sign up gets in his crosshairs and potentially, you know, all of these guys, uh, J- Jamie Dimon is the only one I can tell of all these, like, this power crew that hasn't kissed his ass and is actually willing to occasionally say the obvious, and now the government is suing JP Morgan. So it doesn't matter how powerful you are, you gotta pay the mob. And this is, what do you have? You want a democracy where money can't buy influence or can't buy too much. Then you move to a democracy, a quote-unquote democracy or a kleptocracy where money buys everything. And now we're in a, in my opinion, a pr- protection racket where Bezos and Zuckerberg gotta, like, gotta kiss the ring here. It's feeling very Russian.

Kara Swisher 26:04 But do they gotta? Do they gotta? I feel like they're more powerful. I don't under- even understand it. Like, I, I don't, I don't know. I mean, they could wait him out. Like, they've got so much money, they could do so much damage to him.

Scott Galloway 26:17 You're gonna... If, if the De- I do think if the Democrats take Congress, and we get about eighteen or twenty-four months out, I think you're g- all of a sudden gonna see, as I say, these guys are gonna grow testicles again. I think you're gonna see a switch-

Kara Swisher 26:30 Ugh, they're so awful

Scott Galloway 26:30 ... 'cause I know they all tell you they can't stand him, but the smart play, I hate to say it, the smart play is just to kiss his ass.

Kara Swisher 26:38 I guess, but it's so gro- you don't have to do it in a gro- type with your kids. Oh my God, like, "My child wrote this to you." Do you know how much of, much of a loser you look like that you're pimping out your kids? And then Bezos, just sell the fucking Washington Post if it's one of your worst investments and people are terrible.

Scott Galloway 26:53 I don't get that. We talked-

Kara Swisher 26:54 That one

Scott Galloway 26:54 ... we've talked that. I still don't understand why he still owns that.

Kara Swisher 26:58 They won't engage. You know, it's not just me who was interested. There was a dozen people. Wouldn't engage with any of them. I've talked to every one of them. Wouldn't engage. Not once. What, what does he do? What is he, like... Like, I don't know what's happening. If he doesn't like it, if it's his worst investments and people are terrible, and by the way, Jeff, they hate you, um, why not just get rid of it? It's so f- weird.

Scott Galloway 27:17 Yeah, I don't get that one. I don't understand why he's-

Kara Swisher 27:18 'Cause it doesn't give him power. By the way, it's do- it did an amazing story on Tulsi Gabbard this week. Like, it's done several amazing stories, um, around the corruption and everything else. I mean, the news parts. The, the editorial section is such w- weak sauce now, it's really hard to read. Um, but I agree. I don't understand it. I think... I don't know. When, when they're sucking up to the normal president, do, are we gonna forgive them or do we care? No, they've sort of soiled themselves pretty significantly.

Scott Galloway 27:47 It feels very Russian in the sense that doesn't matter-

Kara Swisher 27:49 Yeah

Scott Galloway 27:49 ... how rich you are.

Kara Swisher 27:51 Yeah, they can get you.

Scott Galloway 27:51 You gotta send Putin, you gotta send Putin his vig, and no matter where you are, you might, if you really piss him off, he's gonna put a neurotoxin on a doorknob. I mean-

Kara Swisher 28:01 Yeah, but it's, this guy wasn't gonna do that. That's the thing. It's not like... In there, I kinda see it, 'cause he, like, that's kinda going out a window kinda thing. This is just something else.

Scott Galloway 28:10 Yeah, but I think, I think these guys, in a capitalist society, begin to equate success and ego and influence just with a number, and that is your net worth. And I think they're very smart, and they connect all the dots and see the matrix around how to increase their net worth. And they've con- they've connected the dots here and say, "Just kiss his ass." It's just, it's, it's a really high ROI activity.

Kara Swisher 28:33 Oh, they're so gross. They're just gross. The pimping out your kids, it's just gross. Sorry, it's just gross. It's gross. Um,

Kara Swisher 28:39 in other Amazon news, sp- this is interesting. Amazon's movie studio is dumping an upcoming film about Sam Altman, saying the project would be better served in another studio. The decision comes as Amazon plans to invest fifty billion dollars in OpenAI this year. The move reportedly stunned the filmmakers. Very good filmmakers, by the way. Andrew Garfield was in it. Um, I am in the script. I don't come off very well. I look like I'm too nice to Sam, but I don't care. Um, since Amazon had already spent about forty million dollars on the movie, tested it for markets, it was working towards a release date, um, they... I don't know, and they can't... It, this is not getting picked up. Netflix passed, apparently. A couple of different places passed. Um, and it's, you know, it's, it's a high-level film. I, I, I read the script, um, and I didn't like it. I thought it was fictional in a lot of ways. They sort of painted Jeffrey in as a party guy, which I'm not in my experience, and they made that one guy who rebe- re- uh, rebelled against Sam into a hero, and I don't think he was either. I thought it was kind of broad and didn't... I thought it was not a good script. Um, but there's, of course, the other ones coming out about Mark Zuckerberg, the, the sequel, uh, The Social Reckoning, which we previously talked about, um, about Frances Haugen and, and that, that whole situation. That's coming out. That's g- That, that is coming out, um, with the guy from The Bear. But, uh, w- do you feel... I don't know. I, I don't know. Like, I'm not surprised they got rid of it if they just invested in OpenAI, but it seems kinda dumb spending all that money.

Scott Galloway 30:04 Well-

Kara Swisher 30:04 Huh?

Scott Galloway 30:04 Uh, I'm not-

Kara Swisher 30:05 It's not much, forty million. Who cares?

Scott Galloway 30:07 I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but we were well into the development or even production writer's room of, of-

Kara Swisher 30:15 Oh, yours. Yeah

Scott Galloway 30:16 ... our series on Netflix about big tech. That got the plug pulled.

Kara Swisher 30:19 Oh.

Scott Galloway 30:20 This has gotten the plug pulled.

Kara Swisher 30:21 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 30:22 I think they've just decided that, um-

Kara Swisher 30:24 They don't wanna be villains.

Scott Galloway 30:26 Yeah, and they don't... It's not worth the risk. You piss off either powerful people or you piss off the president. All these M&A, all these regulatory concerns, and quite frankly, the American public seems to have soured on AI. Or it could just be the following: the story of Sam Altman isn't that interesting. And it, it seemed more interesting 12 months ago than it is now. So I think they'd, you know, think, "Well, let's just do season four of Euphoria." I, I don't... I think they've done the math here and decided that stories about big tech-

Kara Swisher 30:53 Ooh, the gay, the gay hockey people seems popular. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 30:56 Yeah, let's do, let's do the women's hockey team this year. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 30:59 Toy Story 5 is doing incredibly well. Toy Story 5 is, like, killing it at the box office.

Scott Galloway 31:02 Yeah, huge opening.

Kara Swisher 31:03 I love Toy Story.

Scott Galloway 31:03 By the way, to your credit, I meant to tell you.

Kara Swisher 31:05 What?

Scott Galloway 31:05 You've been talking about theaters, and I've been shitposting them. The best performing media stocks the last 12 months-

Kara Swisher 31:11 Yep. Thank you

Scott Galloway 31:11 ... hasn't been Meta, or it hasn't been... It's been theaters.

Kara Swisher 31:14 Alex Swisher-

Scott Galloway 31:14 Theaters have made... There we go

Kara Swisher 31:16 ... went to the theater. He did. He loved it. He's going again to watch the other one.

Scott Galloway 31:19 Well, IRL is a, is a, is a trend again.

Kara Swisher 31:21 Mm-hmm. I'm just-

Scott Galloway 31:22 But anyways, back to, quote-unquote, "Artificial," the name of this, that they've killed. I think they just do the math and go-

Kara Swisher 31:30 "We're not gonna make much"

Scott Galloway 31:30 ... "Okay, this story's not interesting. It's gonna piss off potentially a lot of powerful people. Is this worth it?" And, uh, look, I saw this happen up close and personal, and I still-

Kara Swisher 31:42 So tell, tell us more about this plug pulling for you. Tell, explain to the people what your show was so people understand.

Scott Galloway 31:48 So I h- I connected with, uh, Rez Media, who did The Morning Show, and then I had an, we had an amazing showrunner, Scott Burns, from The Bourne Identity, incredibly talented guy. We signed up Rosamund Pike to play the lead character based on, you know, loosely based or inspired by Sheryl Sandberg. Uh, it got... We, we, we did our pitch, and it got bought in the room, which never happens, and Netflix-

Kara Swisher 32:11 Right, I remember. Yeah

Scott Galloway 32:12 ... Netflix committed to the entire first season. Wow, finally. Oh my God, finally, after a swing and a miss and being beaned in the face about 10 times, uh, I got something going. Everything's going fine, everything's going fine. Netflix doesn't like the scripts. Uh, the showrunner leaves. Rosamund has some family issues, and just the wheels came off the bus. And what probably happened is Occam's Razor. It probably just fell apart.

Kara Swisher 32:39 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 32:40 You could also-

Kara Swisher 32:40 'Cause Hollywood stuff tends to, and they tend to.

Scott Galloway 32:42 Well, not, not when you get to this stage.

Kara Swisher 32:43 No, I know. I agree with you.

Scott Galloway 32:45 I mean, we were-

Kara Swisher 32:45 Although they just cut The Barrens-

Scott Galloway 32:46 We were scouting locations

Kara Swisher 32:47 ... even though it was... Yeah, right. Okay

Scott Galloway 32:48 ... and then so I immediately went to, was there some polit- Because okay, meanwhile, Netflix is making a bid for Warner Brothers. And, uh, so I immediately go, "Is something else at foot here?" And then I talk to the, that incredibly impressive woman at Netflix who runs all their content, and she basically-

Kara Swisher 33:05 Bella Daluga. Mm-hmm

Scott Galloway 33:06 ... she was very straight with me. She said, "Problems with the scripts, uh, you know, family issues for the lead, and this happens." And I believe that. I believe that's what happened, but then you see this thing get it, the plug pulled. I think the creative communities basically said, "America is tired of hearing about big tech, and there's a ton of, there's a ton of, um, second-order risk around these stories right now."

Kara Swisher 33:31 Yeah, that could be. It could be that, what's doing well and what's not doing... It'll be interesting to see how the social reckoning does, right? Uh, although some people say it's a mess of a script with Aaron Sorkin. I haven't seen it. Um, but it's getting a big pu- that's getting a big push, and that's the, the second part of the Facebook story. It's a, it's a, it's an accompaniment to The Social Network, um, by this time Sorkin and not Fincher is directing, which we'll see how he does. Um, but you're right. It's like, do we wanna see more about these assholes, right? Like that kind of thing, I guess.

Scott Galloway 34:01 I still think the story of big tech is the biggest story that's never been told.

Kara Swisher 34:04 I agree.

Scott Galloway 34:04 I still think someone's gonna produce it. I think-

Kara Swisher 34:06 Yep

Scott Galloway 34:07 ... I think Bezos and Musk and Sheryl Sandberg, and what I wanted a- a- and they agreed to in the first season was, I actually think Sheryl Sandberg is one of the more interesting characters in big tech. I think she's actually in many ways more interesting than Musk. And, but i- when you hear about these people's lives, you just wouldn't believe it unless you knew it was real. I, I think they're incredibly complex, interesting, strange people.

Kara Swisher 34:29 Petty.

Scott Galloway 34:29 And the stories-

Kara Swisher 34:31 Angry, unhappy. Yeah

Scott Galloway 34:33 ... but again, it's, it really is, and no one's told it that well. It's the biggest story that has yet to be told. People are obsessed with, obsessed with Succession. News Corp is a pimple on the elephant of big tech.

Kara Swisher 34:43 Right. You're right.

Scott Galloway 34:44 This story really hasn't been told yet.

Kara Swisher 34:45 You know what I think it's gonna be? It's gonna be theater and opera. Like that, I just have this feeling that there's gonna be a theatrical show or i- in that regard, right? Where it's gonna be told. Because I have a couple ones going, and I don't think they'll ever get made. I just don't think they will. Both my book, my memoir, and then another one with Brad Stone and I that we wrote years ago. We wrote the treatment four years ago, and it's moving, but slowly. And the question is, do people wanna watch? Unless you make it really... Like, Succession worked 'cause it was, like, fantastic cast, fantastic script. You know-

Scott Galloway 35:17 Yeah, really strong

Kara Swisher 35:18 ... rich people fucking things up royally. I think it might have to wait a step to get to these people, but they will. They'll be got, and they're amazing characters in a terrible way. Um, speaking of, uh, things that are, uh, crashing to the ground,

Kara Swisher 35:32 SpaceX hype is crashing. As we tape on Monday, SpaceX shares are down to $167, down 17%, valuing the company at $2.2 trillion, still enormous. The stock is still up 24% from the IPO price, but, oh, down over 16% from its peak. Uh, a lot of people feel this is gonna keep coming down. I don't know, but some people are buying. So will it have the effect on the upcoming IPOs? Um, and, and let's hear a question, uh, from a listener about Elon's shares and his impact on the company, and then we can answer all these questions.

Speaker 36:04 So if he tried to actually sell or borrow against even a smaller percentage of it tomorrow, what happens to the price? If he dies or is incapacitated tonight, what's the stock really worth the next morning?

Kara Swisher 36:17 [chuckles] Zero. Zero. Like, oh my God, that would be look out fucking below, but your thoughts?

Scott Galloway 36:23 Well, my understanding is, so there's a lot of nuance there. My understanding is he's agreed to a self-lockup of a year, so he hasn't sold, he, he's not selling any shares.

Kara Swisher 36:31 But he could borrow against it.

Scott Galloway 36:33 That's exactly right, and he can borrow w- way more than he would could ever spend against it.

Kara Swisher 36:37 Explain how rich people do that, Scott, for people that don't understand. Bor- borrowing against your stock

Scott Galloway 36:42 Okay, so the, the ultimate wealth accumulation and income inequality strategy is the following. If you're fortunate enough to have equity in a company that does real- really well, it's called the buy, borrow, die strategy. And that is, Jeff Bezos owns $120 billion in Amazon shares, and to fund his lifestyle, he borrows against it at very low interest rates, and then he puts a lot of it in trust, and when he dies, there's a step up in valuation, so his kid don't h- kids don't have to pay taxes on it. Or when he actually starts selling, he decides he needs to spend more time with his fam- with his dad in Florida, such that he doesn't have to pay back the cost of the infrastructure of the great state of Washington that built his $120 billion in fortune. And the greatest, the greatest distinction between the wealthy and the not wealthy is the following: Are you an earner or are you an owner? And you wanna do everything you can, whether it's tax-free investment vehicles, getting the money out of your hands, auto- automatic investment every month. You have to get to be an owner, 'cause the thing about owning stock or houses or assets is they increase in value tax-deferred. What do I mean by that? If you make $100,000 a year, you're an asset increasing your wealth by $100,000, but you lose 30% of it in taxes. Whereas if your stocks go up $100,000, as long as you don't sell, there's no taxable event. Now, what should happen is that we need new laws such that when you borrow against your assets, it creates a taxable event on the, on the capital or the asset you're borrowing against. Because what effectively has happened is the owners are just pulling away from the earners. It's never sell your stock, let it keep going up, and borrow against it for your lifestyle needs, and then you can take additional capital and start investing in other things and diversifying. And we're gonna have... The last 20, 30 years in America, we've been obsessed with how to create wealth. Over the next 10 years, we're gonna have a very important conversation around what do you do and what is expected of wealth. [chuckles] Did that make any sense?

Kara Swisher 38:42 Yes, it did. Okay. But now what's gonna happen with his stock, see? I mean, because he... Let's assume he's not gonna be incapacitated or dead or, but he will borrow against it if he needs the money. I mean, how much money does he actually need if he wants to, say, fund presidential election, for example? Um-

Scott Galloway 38:59 He owns-- He's worth a trillion dollars.

Kara Swisher 39:01 Right.

Scott Galloway 39:01 He can, he can go to J.P. Morgan and say, "Loan me $10 billion."

Kara Swisher 39:05 Right.

Scott Galloway 39:06 And they, they're not gonna ask him what he's doing with it, and he could literally overwhelm the airwaves and, and social media with his chosen candidates. Is the stock gonna go down? Uh, okay, let me just be clear. SpaceX trades at a price to sales ratio... Well, let's, let's do it the other way. Apple trades at 10 and a half times price to sales. Alphabet, 11. Tesla, 16. Nvidia, 39. By the way, all these companies are growing faster, except for Tesla, than SpaceX. Space- SpaceX trades at 131. Meta, an amazing company, trades at 7.3. Amazon trades at 3.7.

Kara Swisher 39:40 That's astonishing.

Scott Galloway 39:42 So-

Kara Swisher 39:42 Amazon, 3.7?

Scott Galloway 39:44 3.7.

Kara Swisher 39:45 Oh my God.

Scott Galloway 39:45 3.7.

Kara Swisher 39:45 10 is usually the thing, right? 10 to 15, correct? 12.

Scott Galloway 39:49 Yeah, those are higher margin companies. Amazon's in a low margin business. I think, I think the, the only stock in all of these that I would buy right now is Amazon.

Kara Swisher 39:58 Yeah, I agree.

Scott Galloway 39:58 Because what you get is, you get a distant number two to SpaceX with the core business-

Kara Swisher 40:04 Yeah

Scott Galloway 40:04 ... of their retail platform. And if you wanna talk about AI, the adjacent AI plays to go after industrial robots, of which Amazon has two and a half times the total amount of America.

Kara Swisher 40:13 If you're FedEx, you have to be worried too. Same thing. I mean-

Scott Galloway 40:16 If I could go, if I could go short any category right now, it would be a basket of the secondary AI players, and if I could go long any category, it would be, uh, GLP-1s. I don't know if you've seen what's coming out of the American Clinical-

Kara Swisher 40:28 Yeah. Amazing

Scott Galloway 40:29 ... Oncology, uh, Gathering, but they're now saying that metastatic cancers get cut in half, the growth rates-

Kara Swisher 40:36 Right

Scott Galloway 40:36 ... when people are on GLP-1s.

Kara Swisher 40:38 Yep.

Scott Galloway 40:38 Anyway.

Kara Swisher 40:39 Also-

Scott Galloway 40:39 Will it come down?

Kara Swisher 40:40 These, these foods, as you said, uh, two years ago, you know, the n- the, the cuts in prices for Doritos and for all that shitty food, um, is really quite significant. And people... There's now not enough cottage cheese around and yogurt and things like... You know, it's really interesting, like, in terms of how people's tastes have shifted, 'cause one in eight Americans is on this drug at this point, which is-

Scott Galloway 41:03 I think it's gonna be one in two.

Kara Swisher 41:04 I agree. I agree.

Scott Galloway 41:06 You're gonna-

Kara Swisher 41:06 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 41:06 I, I... My prediction is both of us are on GLP-1s, some form or microdosing.

Kara Swisher 41:10 Oh, I'm gonna start... My cardiologist was like, "We're gonna s- not have your stroke ever again. We're gonna give you a small amount." I'm gonna do it. I haven't started any.

Scott Galloway 41:17 They're talking about potential, potential, uh, delay of dementia and Alzheimer's.

Kara Swisher 41:21 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 41:21 They're finding out-

Kara Swisher 41:22 No, my cardiologist was like, "Abso-fucking-lutely we're doing it for you." Because I'm-

Scott Galloway 41:26 They're just finding out all sorts of... The, the... I... There's never been an innovation that appears to have second-order effects that are this positive. You usually find externalities that are negative. You know, you get... You blast someone with chemo enough, they get leukemia 20 years later, right? There's big tech, all sorts of externalities. The externalities of GLP-1, uh, you know, and there, there are issues around nausea, muscle loss, but the... Every time they do more research, they keep finding out better and better things.

Kara Swisher 41:55 Yeah, I think it's the biggest test case. It'll be interesting to see what the neg- There are some negative effects and so like that, but it's a little like a statin.

Scott Galloway 42:02 Sure.

Kara Swisher 42:02 You know. Uh, but one of the things is people eating whole foods and craving things that are protein, protein-related, healthy proteins, um, which is really interesting. Anyway, we'll see. I g- I would agree with you. Um, you called this one very hard two years ago, at least, if you recall. I remember this. I remember being struck by it. Anyway, SpaceX shar- shares. Good luck if you buy them, and let's not hope Elon dies or is incapacitated tonight, um, 'cause it is a look out below for that stock, correct? I mean, let's just answer his question. If something happens to him, that price-

Scott Galloway 42:35 Oh, yeah

Kara Swisher 42:35 ... even though SpaceX is a very fine business, it's not-

Scott Galloway 42:38 Yeah. Um

Kara Swisher 42:38 ... a very fine business. It's just a telco in the sky, essentially, without him.

Scott Galloway 42:42 No, the meme, the cult leader of the meme-

Kara Swisher 42:45 It cannot

Scott Galloway 42:45 ... uh, that would be... Yeah, that would be, uh- Yeah, I, I, I, I gotta believe that would be disastrous for, for Tesla and for SpaceX. He's-

Kara Swisher 42:55 Everything.

Scott Galloway 42:55 Yeah, 100%.

Kara Swisher 42:55 Yeah, he's the one, he's the key man. Anyway, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. [gentle music] Support for this show comes from ShipStation. There are only so many hours in a day, and if you run a business, then you can't afford inefficiency, especially when it comes to shipping physical products. If you're looking for an AI to help make the process less of a headache, look no further than ShipStation. ShipStation's AI isn't a general purpose tool. It's a highly specialized intelligence that has been trained for decades on real shipping data. With features like inventory syncing across your sales channels, a branded returns portal that helps turn returns into revenue, automatic rate shopping, and integrations with accounting and CRM software, ShipStation eliminates the need for multiple tools in your workflow. ShipStation can adapt to your unique business by alerting you when stock is low, recommending the best carrier selections and rates, and automating tasks to save you time so you can stay one step ahead. The sooner you switch, the sooner you start saving time and money. Get started with ShipStation today and get 60 days free at shipstation.com with code pivot. That's shipstation.com, code pivot. Shipstation.com, code pivot. Taxes and fees apply.

Scott Galloway 44:06 [gentle music] Support for the show comes from Framer. If your team wants a website that looks and feels handcrafted but is still fast to ship, Framer is built for that. You design on a visual canvas with responsive layouts, hosting, and a CMS built in, so the work is production ready from day one. Agents work alongside you to draft pages and polish sections. Then you review and publish what goes live. Framer is the pro site builder for creators, teams, and businesses that want a professional site and care enough to get every detail right. Agents solve the gap between AI-generated ideas and production-ready website work. The agent works in the same place where the real site is designed, managed, reviewed, and published. It lands on the canvas, stays editable, and can be published when the team is ready. Agents and Framer work alongside teams to streamline collaboration on the same canvas, build custom code components, create and manage CMS content, optimize SEO settings, and ship everything all in one place. Learn how you can get more out of your site from a Framer specialist or get started building for free today at framer.com/pivot for 30% off a Framer Pro annual plan. That's framer.com/pivot for 30% off. Framer.com/pivot. Rules and restrictions may apply. [upbeat music] Support for the show comes from Gusto. If you're a small business owner, you know how hard it can be to navigate the economy. You can't control interest rates or tariffs, but you can control how you adapt and run your business. Automating payroll and HR with Gusto is one of the fastest ways to cut friction and focus on what actually moves the needle. Gusto is online payroll and benefit software built for small businesses. It's all-in-one, remote friendly, and incredibly easy to use, so you can pay, hire, onboard, and support your team from anywhere. If you've ever been stuck working on repetitive administrative tasks and thought to yourself, "There has to be an easier way," that's the kind of thing Gusto was built to solve. And they say they can provide automatic payroll tax filing, simple direct deposits, health benefits, commuter benefits, workers' comp, 401 (k) , you name it. Gusto makes it simple and has options for nearly every budget. Save time with built-in automated tools, offer letters, onboarding docs, direct deposits, and more. With Gusto, you can get direct access to certified HR experts to help support you through any tough HR situation. Try Gusto today at gusto.com/pivot and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's three months of free payroll at gusto.com/pivot. One more time, gusto.com/pivot.

Kara Swisher 46:24 [gentle music]

Kara Swisher 46:27 Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails.

Scott Galloway 46:29 My win is, uh, tourists in the US, uh, for the World Cup.

Kara Swisher 46:34 Oh, yeah.

Scott Galloway 46:35 Uh, yeah.

Kara Swisher 46:36 It's good.

Scott Galloway 46:36 I think international fans are leaving the World Cup raving about America, our food. I mean, it's just hilarious. "We love your Waffle House." I mean, it's just like-

Kara Swisher 46:47 Yeah. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 46:47 ... the, it-

Kara Swisher 46:47 Boston and this tartan, the Tartan Army was delightful. Everything.

Scott Galloway 46:51 Uh, what, what, what the world is finding out is that America at its core, distinctive p- uh, podcasters like us and, and Trump, America-

Kara Swisher 46:59 They like us, Scott.

Scott Galloway 46:59 Americans are generous, interesting, wonderful people, and it's an amazing culture, and they're getting to see that, and then Americans are getting to see just how wonderful these nations are. And I-- like I said, I think the World Cup is doing what the UN i- initially envisioned it would do. I think it's bringing people together. These viral online videos show fans excited about American food, uh, our huge portions, Chipotle, Shake Shack, and many more. Visitors to, to NYC were able to be part of the legendary Knicks parade. The World Cup has attracted a projected ten million visitors. Airbnb searches in host cities jumped 80% year on year. Visitors are staying about 12 days, attending two matches, and spending over $400 a day on average. Uh, New York City's tourism chief, Julie Coker, likened the boost to hosting as many as eight Super Bowls in six weeks. I, I just think the World Cup, I think FIFA is one of the most corrupt organizations in sport, but I think the World Cup is just incredible.

Kara Swisher 48:00 It's the fans. It's the fans. It's the fans. They were just, the fans were delightful.

Scott Galloway 48:03 100%. But you see, you see people in Kansas welcoming, you know, these people from Norway. You see the Japanese. I, I, I just... I- it, it really is, I think we forget that generally speaking, these cultures are wonderful.

Kara Swisher 48:18 And we're not Trump.

Scott Galloway 48:19 Yeah. Generally speaking, people wanna get along. Generally speaking, we're not that divided. We just have the most profitable companies in the world trying to divide us.

Kara Swisher 48:27 And we have a president who's trying to divide us. It just is.

Scott Galloway 48:30 Agreed.

Kara Swisher 48:30 Like, I mean, I think, you know what I'm struck by here is y- you get the feeling, and this is just being in France for a short time, is they really want to like us. Like, I know, you know what I mean? Like, I had so many Europeans, like, w- testing to see, "Oh, are you one of those people, Americans?" And you're not, and then they're, like, thrilled. To have you there, one. I have to say everyone's been really lovely everywhere we've gone. And I do think there's a backlash happening, Scott. I do. People are like-

Scott Galloway 48:57 Mm-hmm

Kara Swisher 48:57 ... they're, uh, I'm tired of being angry at these fuckers. I'm like, "Let's just get rid of them. Let's just move along." And like, a- and you're right, the World Cup, I, I know you don't think as much as the Knicks, but I think the Knicks thing, like it's just, there's a feeling. I think you're absolutely right. I would agree with you. These-- and this is, these people want to like us. They want to like us in a lot of ways, so.

Scott Galloway 49:17 My fail, and this is indicative of, of social media, is that Polymarket is flooding social media with fake trading videos. Uh, there's a great... I think the Wall Street Journal is doing a great job. Uh, they did an analysis that found that Polymarket paid dozens of college-age creators to post videos of fake trades and fake wins on the platform. So one of the videos, for example, uh, shows a young man that, saying he won $100,000 on a bet that Trump would say McDonald's in public, but in reality, all of the econom- all, all of the accounts that made the bet, uh, lost money. And to make these clips-

Kara Swisher 49:54 Ugh, they're gross

Scott Galloway 49:55 ... Polymarket built copies of its website and then told creators to make, quote, "trades" on those sites and hide that they were being paid by Polymarket.

Kara Swisher 50:02 Oh no. God, that's actually... Scammers.

Scott Galloway 50:04 So, uh, by the way, I feel I should disclose that at PropG Markets, we have a data partnership with Kalshi. Gambling and gaming for young men is really corrosive, and I still can't resolve what to do about it 'cause you don't wanna infantilize young people, and it's a tough one. But at a minimum, these companies shouldn't be posting fake social media posts that show someone winning when they didn't. It's just, it's preying on their worst instincts, and it's n- it's disingenuous.

Kara Swisher 50:33 You know, yeah, it's just, just do your business. If people wanna use it, you don't have to, like, trick people.

Scott Galloway 50:37 And these are great businesses, but Polymarket's audience is 70% male, and the most common age demographic is 25 to 34, so again, it's young men. And a plural-

Kara Swisher 50:47 It feels like those, like-

Scott Galloway 50:48 And guess this-

Kara Swisher 50:48 Can I use a comparison? You know those two s-

Scott Galloway 50:51 Mm-hmm

Kara Swisher 50:51 ... when you were after Robinhood for a while, and then the other people that you worked with, Public?

Scott Galloway 50:56 Public, yeah.

Kara Swisher 50:57 It just-

Scott Galloway 50:57 Public.com.

Kara Swisher 50:57 It, they seem like the Robinhood people, the Polymarket people. I don't know.

Scott Galloway 51:02 Well, they're especially aggressive. And I have problems with all of it. I don't, I don't have moral clarity about all of it, uh, quite frankly, any of it. But the deceptive marketing mostly affects young men, and, and just evidence of who they're targeting. A plurality of Polymarket's display ads are on what site? I'll give you a guess. Young men. They're trying to reach young men.

Kara Swisher 51:25 Twitter.

Scott Galloway 51:26 Pornhub.

Kara Swisher 51:28 Pornhub. Uh-huh, that makes sense.

Scott Galloway 51:30 So this is, a- and again, I don't know if you can regulate this. They'll say it's free speech. Everybody's making money. But this does feel like deceptive marketing. Anyways, that's my fail.

Kara Swisher 51:41 That's a good fail. That's, I agree with you. I think you're, uh... I mean, it is. It's just, why do you have to trick people? Just, you, make a good product.

Scott Galloway 51:47 They're great businesses. People love this stuff.

Kara Swisher 51:49 Yeah. What do you need to fucking-

Scott Galloway 51:49 They love the prediction markets. The data's interesting.

Kara Swisher 51:52 Why do you have to do that to people?

Scott Galloway 51:52 They're addictive.

Kara Swisher 51:53 They're just stupid. It's just con people. Um, my fail is the, the way the Republicans are continuing to attack James Talarico over his sexuality, which is, I think it's must be Trump mistook cis- the word cisgender for cisgenders or something. But Stephen Miller is particularly heinous in terms, and especially 'cause he's such a loathsome creature. Um, uh, it's just, it's grotesque. It's really grotesque and weird, and I hope it doesn't work. I fear it might. Uh, but this, this idea of, of, of accusing someone of being transgender, and this, so it continues. And especially Ted Cruz. It, I mean, honestly, I hate to say he should know better, but I guess he doesn't. But Miller and Cruz and a lot of them are just grotesque. Um, it's just gross. It's gro- I've never seen anything like this, and it's really hateful and cruel and, you know, and especially 'cause these particular men are particularly loathsome men at the same time. And so I think that's just, I, I just can't stand it. I g- every time I see them do it, and they keep doing it, they must be seeing some polling or something, but... And they're also terrible people. Um, it's just gross. Like, like it's, I, I don't even under- it's so hate, it's a misogynist, it's transphobic, it's, it's definitely, uh, it's all manner of weirdness on these people's part. And just, I g- again, a bunch of people I cannot wait to see go away at some point relatively soon, and we never have to speak of them again. It's how I feel about a lot of these people. Um, on the positive side, um, I do s- I do, um, really thrilled to see Toy Story did so well. It's one of my favorite movie-

Scott Galloway 53:32 It's a great franchise, yeah

Kara Swisher 53:32 ... franchises. I-

Scott Galloway 53:34 Yeah

Kara Swisher 53:34 ... the third one, I lost, I lost it at the end of that one about, it's abou- it's just about toys, and it's about everything. And this one is, you know, focused in on empathy, focused in on all the good things we've been talking about in this show. And, um, I haven't seen it yet. I wa- I have my kids, my little-- I saw the, the other ones obviously with my older kids 'cause it's been so long. This is the fifth one. And sometimes when you get to five, you're like, "You gotta be kidding, kids. You just wanna sell toys." But the, the reviews for this, and I have not, I wanna see it in the theater, speaking of which, um, and we're gonna, we, I've downloaded all of them here, and I'm hoping to watch all four movies with the little ones and then take them to it. Um, I just feel like what a, what an astonishing franchise it's been, and it's just, I dare you not to cry at almost any of them. [chuckles] I just, I cry, and I don't cry. Um, that last, the third one just killed me. Just killed me. Um, and I don't know why. I just, it's just beautiful. And this one's about, um, stuff that's starting now. It's about digital, but it doesn't demonize digital. It just talks about play with kids, and I, and I'm very excited to see it. So I'm really happy for the Pixar people for putting out a great film, and I'm excited to see it. Um-

Scott Galloway 54:45 Well, you know what my-

Kara Swisher 54:46 But go ahead. Sorry

Scott Galloway 54:47 ... you know what my, uh, ex-wife said when I came home and found her fucking Woody?

Kara Swisher 54:52 Oh, no. [chuckles]

Scott Galloway 54:53 She said, she looked at me and said, she said, "You have a friend in me."

Kara Swisher 54:58 Oh my God, how could you do this to me? How-

Scott Galloway 55:02 Come on, that's easy

Kara Swisher 55:03 No, that is-

Scott Galloway 55:04 That's easy

Kara Swisher 55:04 ... the worst. That is the a- I'm not going with you to this movie, and you're not getting near my children on this trip to Cannes.

Scott Galloway 55:10 There you go. [laughs]

Kara Swisher 55:11 Cannes. I can't, I'm pronouncing it right, Cannes. Anyway.

Scott Galloway 55:14 Cannes.

Kara Swisher 55:15 Cannes, Cannes. I thank you for ruining my beautiful, gorgeous moment about children-

Scott Galloway 55:19 There you go

Kara Swisher 55:19 ... and clay and everything else. I truly appreciate it. You are not allowed to go to this movie in any way.

Scott Galloway 55:24 You've got a friend in me.

Kara Swisher 55:25 All right, stop. Stop.

Scott Galloway 55:27 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 55:27 Stop right now. Anyway, so Scott, I'm looking forward to seeing you. I might see you at a party tonight. Maybe I won't see you at a party, but I wanna ride on that zodiac.

Scott Galloway 55:35 You know, Toy Story 6 is about-

Kara Swisher 55:37 Oh, oh no, don't

Scott Galloway 55:37 ... Andy's-

Kara Swisher 55:38 No, don't.

Scott Galloway 55:38 Is about [laughs]

Kara Swisher 55:39 Don't. Don't.

Scott Galloway 55:40 I'm serious.

Kara Swisher 55:41 Don't. Don't.

Scott Galloway 55:41 Toy Story 6 is about Andy's mother's toys, which coincidentally are also called Woody and Buzz.

Kara Swisher 55:46 Oh my God. All right.

Scott Galloway 55:47 [laughs]

Kara Swisher 55:47 We're done. Okay. You have ruined-

Scott Galloway 55:49 That's good

Kara Swisher 55:49 ... my win. Those are so bad.

Scott Galloway 55:51 That's good.

Kara Swisher 55:51 Those are so bad. They're so bad, and they're so sad.

Scott Galloway 55:54 Okay, turn on your cameras. Are the producers laughing? That's my litmus test.

Kara Swisher 55:57 No, no, it's not.

Scott Galloway 55:57 Whether they have their head in their hands.

Kara Swisher 55:58 They're gonna c- afterwards, they'll go, "Uh, Scott, do we really wanna do this?" And we're going to. So that's the way, that's, that's where Lara goes. "Uh," like that. That's the voice. "Uh."

Scott Galloway 56:07 There you go.

Kara Swisher 56:08 Anyway, I will see you in person at Live. We're gonna have lots of people there. It'll be fun. I think it is sold out. Um, uh, we are, and I am also doing a live interview with Jim Bankoff and Meredith Levien, uh, from The New York Times.

Scott Galloway 56:23 [snorts]

Kara Swisher 56:23 Oh, stop it. Stop it. [laughs]

Scott Galloway 56:25 I mean, that sounds really interesting.

Kara Swisher 56:28 Oh. Yeah, it's gonna be-

Scott Galloway 56:28 What, is NPR hosting that? Or-

Kara Swisher 56:30 Yeah. Uh-uh, it's gonna be great. It's about the future of media.

Scott Galloway 56:31 Are they gonna talk about GMI, the Forestry Service?

Kara Swisher 56:33 You're not invited. Listen, dirty, dirty-

Scott Galloway 56:35 Oh my God

Kara Swisher 56:35 ... children's movies

Scott Galloway 56:35 I'm going to see Team Scotland at the, at the Crane Club pop-up on the Paley tomorrow at midnight.

Kara Swisher 56:40 It-

Scott Galloway 56:40 Then I'm going to the Spotify party. Who wants to roll with the dog? Who wants to roll with the dog?

Kara Swisher 56:47 I will see you in a few days, Scott, and we wanna hear from you also. Our listeners, send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind, including Scott's filthy, filthy brain this week. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show, or call 855-51- uh, PIVOT, or elsewhere in the Kara and Scott universe. This week on On with Kara Swisher, I talked to Harvey Levin, founder of the celebrity news juggernaut TMZ, who I adore, about its new Washington, D.C. bureau and expanded political coverage. Let's listen to a clip.

Speaker 57:16 I do wanna just say one thing, that, you know, you're referring to this as, you know, politicians being a form of celebrities.

Kara Swisher 57:23 Right. Yeah. You can push back.

Speaker 57:25 I don't view, I, I, I don't view it that way.

Kara Swisher 57:26 Okay.

Speaker 57:26 Um, I view it as pop culture.

Kara Swisher 57:29 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 57:29 We cover pop culture.

Kara Swisher 57:30 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 57:30 And pop culture can be a lot of things. You know, it can be sports, it can be entertainment, and pop culture is politics because a lot of the things that affect everybody emanates from Washington, D.C. And, um, it emanates from the courts, it emanates from Congress, from the president, and it affects all of us. So they are an integral part of pop culture. So to me, it has never been a stretch.

Kara Swisher 57:58 It's a really good interview. They had tried for years to do this. He's a great guy, and by the way, they're breaking some stories, I have to say.

Scott Galloway 58:03 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 58:03 They, they really are.

Scott Galloway 58:04 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 58:05 They're like, when they took those pictures of politicians during the shutdown, like, like Lindsey Graham with his bubble wand at Disneyland, I think they're doing an excellent job. Reminds me of the old Washington Post, which used to do this kind of stuff, a mix of things. Anyway, he's great. I've known him for many, many years. I like Harvey a lot. I think he's a really interesting entrepreneur in media. He's one of the OG ones. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday, live from Cannes. [upbeat music]