EVERY SPOKEN WORD
125 min read · 24,630 words- 0:00 – 8:36
Intro
- KSKara Swisher
Do you have a favorite, um, of your, of your memes? Uh, calling Trump "tiny hands" was nice. Your getting prayed over by Tucker Carlson, Kid Rock, and an angelic Hulk Hogan.
- GNGavin Newsom
Oh, that was my favorite.
- KSKara Swisher
There's a lot of user-generated jesty stuff going on with you there.
- GNGavin Newsom
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Um...
- GNGavin Newsom
They finally did some untouched photos of me without a shirt on, which is good, to finally see something that's not edited.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and this is the final day of... Scot-Free August. (air horn blows) That's my sting, I love it. We're going big for Scot-Free August grand finale. My guest co-host is a podcaster. He's also the Governor of California and possibly the only person that could match Scott in irritating me.
- GNGavin Newsom
(laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
It's Gavin Newsom. Welcome, Governor.
- GNGavin Newsom
(laughs) Uh, it is great to be with you, the final, the final day.
- KSKara Swisher
Thank you.
- GNGavin Newsom
When, when's Scott back?
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, gosh.
- GNGavin Newsom
When's he back?
- KSKara Swisher
Uh, after Labor Day. We have a day off on Labor Day because we labor a lot. Yeah, and then he's back, and then he's-
- GNGavin Newsom
Okay. Where's what... Has he been hibernating? Is he writing a book? What's he doing? What, what's, what's the...
- KSKara Swisher
No, he's in Nantucket. He's in Nantucket or in Aspen. He goes to, like, rich people vacations all over the place, and then, and then starts tweeting at the end of August because he wants to say something about... Not tweeting, he's on Threads and stuff, but he, like, starts to try to engage again, and he's desperate to get back.
- GNGavin Newsom
It's good to be back with you on this very special final episode of Scot-Free August.
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, thank you. Try to keep the hand gestures to a minimum, because I'm very irritated with the President.
- GNGavin Newsom
I know, I'm very sensitive. And you... I mean, if people didn't see, Trump attacked my hand motions. He said that was, uh... So I'm very sensitive now. You're right.
- KSKara Swisher
Yes.
- GNGavin Newsom
I'm gonna... I'm just gonna... Forgive me. You're not gonna see them again. I'll do my best.
- KSKara Swisher
No. I like your hand motions. It's such a... What's wrong with you? He does a lot of hand motions.
- GNGavin Newsom
Well, that was-
- KSKara Swisher
Every accusation is a confession with you people.
- GNGavin Newsom
That was just another, another example of projection.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- GNGavin Newsom
Just one more, one more than you need.
- KSKara Swisher
Projection?
- GNGavin Newsom
That's it.
- 8:36 – 21:01
Newsom’s Trolling Tactics
- KSKara Swisher
about it. But I want to talk about your new role. I guess troll in chief? I don't know. As one newspaper put it. But in the last few weeks, you've flooded social media with all-caps posts, insults, AI-generated memes mocking Trump and his policies. You recently got into the merch game, selling MAGA-inspired Bibles, hat, red hats, and even Make America Gavin Again flag (laughs) , which is really funny. Fox News has been melting down, as you said. Dana Perino said if she were your wife, she'd tell you you're making a fool of yourself. And while a lot of liberals are loving this, you have, uh, critics on the left who, of course, who say the Democrat needs, party needs to do more than be an anti-Trump party. I disagree. I think this is highly effective, especially that you're not stopping. So, talk about the strategy.
- GNGavin Newsom
Well, I just wanted to put a mirror up to the absurdity of all of this, and I wish Dana Perino and others w- have made that point months and months, years ago. All the all-cap tweets, the Trump putting himself on memes wi- as the Pope, or putting him on memes as Superman or, or with his shirt off and, and, you know, and, uh, on top of, uh, you know, different, you know, th- you know, uh, superhero characters or, you know, dinosaurs. I mean, it just... It's comical. And yet, it's become so normalized and socialized in a way that's not even critiqued, uh, in, in the extreme right. And so I just wanted to challenge that and challenge all these pundits out there, challenge all these people, all these acolytes, people that are just fawning over a guy who puts his picture up on, uh, Mount Rushmore, uh, that does, uh, uh, does text like a 13-year-old or a 10-year-old. Uh, it's humiliating. It's embarrassing. And so this is the, this is the mirror, and it's a mirror not just to Trump himself, uh, but to these, you know, these networks that, uh, you know, th- that, th- you know, these guys are... talk about... You know, th- these are the chatbots for the administration, uh, and it's not just Fox. It's One American News, it's Newsmax, and it's all the folks in the right-wing media, and, uh, I'm glad they're melting down over it. I'm glad they're, they're, they're challe- I mean, they... Their situational unawareness is rather jaw-dropping, uh, and we'll keep at it.
- KSKara Swisher
So, what was the strategy? How did you come up with it? Um, and, and, uh, you, you, you have given credit to the whole team in creating these memes, but-
- GNGavin Newsom
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... it does... Uh, someone asked me about it. I said, "Well, it just... This does sound like him, th- the person I know."
- GNGavin Newsom
I appreciate it. Look, I think it's... Th- there's, there's, um, there's, um, there's a, uh, one answer to that, and then there's a subtext. This thing really is... It's about iteration. I've always been willing to try new things. So, I'm always trying, uh, to, you know, challenge my team, just, "Let's see what works." I mean, that's why I went on Fox. That's why I did the debate with Ron DeSantis. It's why I went... I was one of the first Democrats to go on Truth Social. That's why I started a PAC a few years ago and only went to red states and started raising awareness in re- in resources in parts of the country where I feel the Democratic Party walked away. And, and so it's part of that, but it's also specifically part of what we were s- wha- what we were on the receiving end of after the fires in January in LA. Uh-
- KSKara Swisher
And before that.
- GNGavin Newsom
A- a- and, and just a different level of...... of mis- and disinformation. And to your point about before that, look, the recall, these guys, I, you know, I'm, I'm romantic. I always think all politics is local, I was sort of born and bred with that construct, but that's not the case, obviously. And I intellectualized that, but I never fully internalized it until the recall. And I had guys like Newt Gingrich, and I, I had folks like Mike Huckabee and the RNC nationalizing their grievance. And of course, all the folks at Fox and One America News, et cetera, coming after us. So, I started to shift our approach then. It really got into high gear after the fires when Trump and Elon Musk were coming after us, and they were winning on the just rank lies about water policy and all the BS. But the National Guard-
- KSKara Swisher
The lawsuits, yeah.
- GNGavin Newsom
... the, Kara, the National Guard and what they did to federalize 4,000, uh, of our National Guard men and women and put 700 active-duty military, uh, on the streets of LA, that's when we just said, "We're on the other side of this." And we told the team, um, it's no permission slip now, not even forgiveness. You just go, and we go hard, and we don't stop.
- KSKara Swisher
And you don't stop. That's what's interesting about it, because it's relentless, which is very different. It, I had told, I think it was Kamala Harris, like, "You've gotta be almost promiscuous now s- from a social media point of view. You have to be everywhere constantly and not stopping," which I think characterizes this quite a bit. And do, when, when you hear criticism that's too much or cringy or even from the left or right, how, how do you answer that?
- GNGavin Newsom
I, you know how I answered it? (laughs) Kind of interesting, uh, 'cause I haven't really said this publicly, but, um, I send my team a, uh, a, a YouTube video of Marshawn Lynch on 60 Minutes Sports when he was asked his running style, and he says, going into the frontline, he goes, "Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again." Um, and, and, and so this notion of communication, I could not agree with you more. Trump's success is the simplicity to which he communicates the same thing, uh, in that cadence, over and over and over and over and over again. And we move week to week. It's infrastructure week, and all of a sudden, now it's childcare week, and it's foster care week. Uh, and as a consequence, we have weak messaging, and they're winning the narrative war. Illusion r- rules. Facts don't matter. That's what Fox understands. That's what Trump understands. He floods the zone, and we're constantly on our heels and not on our front toes. And so what we're trying to do is, yes, fight fire with fire with the redistricting substance and in terms of our communications style, and we're trying to keep at it, and we've done it. Look, you mentioned, you know, the, the, the Patriot Store. You know, he just, look at the stuff he's selling. Perfumes?
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- GNGavin Newsom
This is embarrassing. The guy's hawking Bibles. Ours is sold out. So if you want it, sorry, it's sold out. Um, you know...
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs) I was hoping to get one.
- GNGavin Newsom
And if you want a real prediction, I know we talked about the, the Taylor Swift prediction. Uh, the real prediction is, you know, we're about to put a meme coin out, and you know what, Donald Trump? Uh, we'll see how well your coin does versus our coin. I mean, it- it, we're just trying...
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, you're doing a coin. Of course, you are.
- GNGavin Newsom
... trying to tune up, to turn up the heat and trying to tune people into the absurdity.
- KSKara Swisher
Is it gonna be called Gavin Coin? Is that...
- GNGavin Newsom
No, it's, I think Trump Corruption Coin.
- KSKara Swisher
Oh, okay. (laughs)
- GNGavin Newsom
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
That's a little
- GNGavin Newsom
... This is one of the great grifters of our time. I mean, this is just jaw-dropping. And none of this is normal. Again, this, none of this is funny.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- GNGavin Newsom
I mean, it's funny in one respect, but it's like...
- KSKara Swisher
It is, you're being funny. Yeah.
- GNGavin Newsom
It's extraordinary what's going on. It's jaw-dropping. His family is sent out before these foreign trips doing deals. Deals are literally done before tariffs are imposed. The crony capitalism that's going on, the people that are selling their souls, uh, in this country. The fact that you saw there, these guys bloviating at that... I mean, that was, I mean, insanity yesterday...
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, the Cabinet meeting. You're talking about the Cabinet meeting.
- GNGavin Newsom
... at the Cabinet meeting.
- 21:01 – 29:32
Redistricting Arms Race
- KSKara Swisher
but let's talk more seriously that your trolling has kicked into high gear about redistricting fight that started-
- GNGavin Newsom
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... in Texas and quickly spread across the country. You signed two redistricting bills last week and called a special election for voters to approve the new congressional map aimed at countering Texas, adding five new GOP seats. Um, if the ballot measure passes, Democrats could pick up as many as five House seats in 2026. And meanwhile, Trump said this week that DOJ will sue California over the move. Um, it's also re- uh, uh, divisive a little bit. Former California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has been vocal in opposing the plan. But on the other hand, Danny DeVito chipped in $1,000 to support it-
- GNGavin Newsom
(laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
... for people who don't know that. Um, you're driving a wedge between the classic, uh, twins, stars-
- GNGavin Newsom
Twins.
- KSKara Swisher
... from the '80s.
- GNGavin Newsom
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
Um, talk a little bit about the... what you're doing here. And of course, there's been innumerable think pieces of... is... has he bitten off more than he can chew? Is this the way to go? Could other red state governors start to participate as well as blue state governor?
- GNGavin Newsom
Well, that's a pretty naive-
- KSKara Swisher
It could turn into a-
- GNGavin Newsom
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... arms race kind of thing.
- GNGavin Newsom
Of course it's... but of course, they're gonna do that anyway. I mean, that, that punditry is so naive, it's not even worth the paper it's printed on. I mean, the idea that, that Trump was gonna stop at Texas was absurd to begin with. Remember, it was Trump who started this. Uh, they drew for- prover of first blood. It was Trump that called Abbott, said, "I am entitled..." not the words he used in that first phone call, but weeks later, he said he's entitled to five seats. He is trying to rig the election before one vote is cast. What more evidence did we need than January 6th, where he tried to light democracy on fire and wreck this country and tried to dial up for 11, almost 12,000 votes to the Secretary of State in Georgia. Now, he's doing it in plain sight. You saw him yesterday. He was in the Oval Office with the Speaker of the Indiana Legislature and the Senate, uh, Chair, saying, "We need to do what JD Vance was assigned to tell you to do a week ago. You need to move in Indiana, in Missouri." And of course, uh, Ron DeSantis will do anything the guy asks in order to get back in his good graces. So these guys are going. They're not screwing around, and we can't screw around either. And so, yeah, we're pushing back. We'll, we'll neutralize what's happened in Texas, but we need other Democrats in other states to do the same thing. This is it. You don't get a do-over.This thing can end. This is that serious.
- KSKara Swisher
So, is that happening? How are you or- how are you organizing them?
- GNGavin Newsom
Well, we're try- I'm trying to back to this notion once a mind is str- I'm hoping the legislative leaders in those states are putting pressure. I know the governors, like Moore and others, Wes Moore, uh, has talked about it in Maryland. Obviously, Kathy Hochul's talked a little bit about it. Uh, Pritzker's talked a-a bit about it, but we gotta move. You know, it... As we pray, we have to move our feet. It's action. So we gotta go and... Look, back to biting off a lot, we can ch- l- I get that. You know, we had to do it in different way. We're doing it in a transparent way, a temporary way where we're keeping our independent redistricting, which we've had for 15 years, but in a temporary basis, we're responding to what Trump has done and what Texas has done in an emergency manner in '26, '28 and, and, and, and in 2030 for congressional seats only. And we're doing it in the most democratic way of any state in US history. There's never been maps put to the voters so they'll decide-
- KSKara Swisher
To special election.
- GNGavin Newsom
... for themselves.
- KSKara Swisher
As opposed to the, to the separate majority in a, in a state for instance, Texas has done.
- GNGavin Newsom
Yeah or, or whatever Mar-a-Lago map, you know, riding folks are, are sending their way which... I mean, this is... So, you know, this, this is the contrast in the approach, um, and, and again we're just... We're trying to be accountable to this moment. I, I'm not interested in holding hands and talking about the world should be. I, I'm not going to be the ex-governor sitting there in some think-tank putting out a white paper saying demo-... You know, I, I can't take that anymore. Enough everybody.
- KSKara Swisher
Right, right.
- GNGavin Newsom
We got-
- KSKara Swisher
So do you-
- GNGavin Newsom
... to get in the ring.
- KSKara Swisher
Do you feel that you'll be able to neutralize, you and other blue state governors be able to do that?
- GNGavin Newsom
I just... You know, I hope so but even if we can't, they know that... Trump did this 'cause he knows he's going to lose and he knows he's going to lose because he's singularly the most-
- KSKara Swisher
He's lost in Iowa.
- GNGavin Newsom
Yeah, he's the most but he's the mo- we lost yesterday in Iowa, uh, in, in that, in that local race which was great, that statewide race. But the point being, he continues to lose. He's gonna lose in Virginia, he's gonna lose in New Jersey in those governor's races. He's gonna continue, uh, to see... His polls are some of the worst in American history. His policies are the most unpopular, uh, in modern American history. He's flailing every single day. That's what all these threats and the mortgage stuff is all about, going after enemies, threatening to arrest people. He's falling apart, uh, and as I, you know, continue to say, he's weakness masquerading as strength. And so we have to be assertive and we have to recognize that there are no limits with this guy, and he'll do... If he can rig next year's election, you're not... I mean, we joke about not having another one. I don't think that's a joke. He will wire this for the next 20, 30 years if it's a JD or if it's a don- I don't... It doesn't even matter, he will wire it. He's already sending out masked people, uh, eh, to intimidate folks. When we launched our campaign, he did it down in Little Tokyo in LA. Do you think ICE is not gonna show up around voting and polling booths to chill participation? You know that. The National Guard, you know that. Everybody knows what's at stake so we have to put a stake in the ground and do things differently.
- KSKara Swisher
For all the funny stuff you're doing, you're, you're absolutely right. And what do you say to people like Schwarzenegger and others, Munger, who want... Who are like let's not do this, let's, let's not go here?
- GNGavin Newsom
Well, it's romantic. I wanna... I, I... We can do a group hug, uh, we can, you know, we can talk, you know. I, I wanna, I wanna go back to that place too but we're not in it. I mean, it's just a... Uh, they've lost the plot about the world we're living in right now. Trump doesn't play by a different set of rules, he doesn't play by any rules. You're a fool if you engage in a contest playing by the rules and the other side doesn't play by any rules. The consequences of that are profound. This is about our, the architecture of our country. This is about co-equal branches of government, popular sovereignty. This is about the rule of law versus the rule of Don. There is no independent redistricting to those two in the future if Trump wires this election. There's none. It's over. They have to recognize that and, and I, I get why they're holding on, uh, to this, this romantic notion, and by the way, I respect their point of view so much so that we maintain the Independent Redistricting Commission but in an emergency manner, we respond to this moment.
- 29:32 – 31:36
Trump’s Attempt to Fire Fed Gov
- KSKara Swisher
Governor Newsom, we're back tr- but, uh, President Trump is escalating his push to control the Federal Reserve, announcing this week he's removing federal Governor Lisa Cook. Trump posted his letter to Cook on Truth Social, saying there was quote, "Sufficient cause for removal," citing unproven allegations of mortgage fraud. Cook plans to sue, with her lawyer arguing Trump has no authority to order the firing. It looks like that. The Fed, for its part, is defending its independence, but says it will abide by whatever the courts decide. This is almost certainly going to the Supreme Court. Um, talk a little bit about this, and then I wanna talk about what's happening in the cities that you referenced before.
- GNGavin Newsom
No, I mean, it's- it's what we were just talking about in the last section. It's- it's not the rule of law, it's the rule of Don. Um, there's- there are no constraints anymore. Uh, and with this Supreme Court, there may actually not be any constraints. Already eliminated one co-equal branch of government. Ron Johnson's run to the woods. He's- it's irrelevant. Uh, th- th- th- so-
- KSKara Swisher
It's Mike Johnson.
- GNGavin Newsom
It's whatever his name is.
- KSKara Swisher
(laughs)
- GNGavin Newsom
Uh, he's the representative of a district, Shreveport-Lafrenah, that has six times the murder rate of Nancy Pelosi's San Francisco. It's- i- it's that guy that I'm referring to. Um, and- and so there is no co-equal branch going. And the question is, is there a third branch, the, uh, the- the judicial branch? And with the Supreme Court, it's an open-ended question. And so it's an open-ended question of whether or not he, quote unquote, "for cause," uh, can have her fired. And if he can have her fired, he can have any of the board members fired, not just Chair Powell, and then he can start getting rid of all the regional presidents. So now you don't have an independent, uh, monetary system. You don't have the truth and trust around the globe. Um, and now we're in, what? Argentina? We're in Turkey. Uh, we're back to, you know, the good old days of Nixon and, you know, the inflationary impacts of his decisions and impacts on the Fed policy th- that we all enjoyed in the '70s. And- and so this is, again, just another proof point of the world we're living in and why it's essential that everyone disabuse themselves that we can operate as we have in the past.
- KSKara Swisher
Do you imagine w- where he's gonna strike next? I mean, obviously, he- he's talking of militaries in more cities.
- 31:36 – 42:45
Trump’s Militarizing Cities Continues
- KSKara Swisher
Um, as we talk on Wednesday, the president is still suggesting Chicago, Baltimore, and New York are next. He's mentioned San Francisco. The president has said, quote, "I have the right to do anything I want. I'm the president of United States," in response to sending the National Guard to Chicago. Speaking of deploying troops, uh, to Baltimore, Trump wrote, "If Westmore needs help, like Gavin Newsom did in LA, I will send in the troops." Meanwhile, in DC, the National Guard who were sent to deal with a crime emergence have been picking up trash as a part of a beautification mission. What- what say you? Because you... Did he help you in LA? Was- was there any-
- GNGavin Newsom
Yeah. No, I mean, we could have u- we could have used the help because we had to protect the National Guard. Uh, we could have used the help after he- he federalized them. Uh, it was the California Highway Patrol and the LAPD that actually had to protect the military, uh, because they had become the attractive nuisance for protests. Um, but he offered no help in that respect. Uh, the vast majority, I'll reca- I'll remind you, um, thousands and thousands of our National Guard... By the way, police officers, firefighters, teachers, um, that were pulled off the beat, uh, and their day jobs, uh, ended up in the armories doing literally nothing. Hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer money. They had nothing to do. And the few hundred that were assigned at any different time, again, had to be protected by local law enforcement. So this isn't... O- obviously, none of this has anything to do with public safety, quite the contrary. It's about power, dominance, and aggression, the only thing he understands. And the question is, does he have the legal right? And we completely reject that, and I say that because I think it's important to highlight for your audience. Um, we are not just saying that. We have asserted that, and we were in federal court, uh, two weeks ago doing oral arguments. We depose members of the Trump administration under the Posse Comitatus framework that the US military cannot be deployed for domestic law enforcement purposes, and Justice Breyer is about to adjudicate, have the first judgment, first opinion, uh, that will be published ever on the Posse Comitatus case that could have a real impact, um, on what Trump is doing all across the United States. And so we're- we're trying to assert ourselves, uh, in the courts, not just the court of public opinion, and push back against what he's doing. But I said this literally months ago that LA is a preview of things to come. Uh-
- KSKara Swisher
To come, right.
- GNGavin Newsom
... DC is a preview of things to come, and every major city across this country.
- KSKara Swisher
What do you do if you're a- a gov... You- you can't keep them out, correct? Uh, you could- you couldn't get the troops into California.
- GNGavin Newsom
No, we just have the legal authority to at least fight it out in the courts, and we hope the rule of law and the constitutional provisions that have- we've enjoyed and frankly often taken for granted for 249 years, um, uh, ultimately will win the day. But yeah, you're right. I mean, he has the legal right to federalize troops. He doesn't have the legal right, however, uh, to militarize our seat for- s- streets for domestic law enforcement, and that is crystal clear under the Posse Comitatus Act, and those limits are very, very clear and- and- and it's a question of whether or not ultimately the United States Supreme Court will agree with that, and, uh- and that's an open-ended question, sadly.
- KSKara Swisher
How do... So what do they... C- c- can those mayors in Chicago, Baltimore, and New York keep them out?
- GNGavin Newsom
Uh, they have no-
- KSKara Swisher
Again, th-
- GNGavin Newsom
They- they can't legally-
- KSKara Swisher
They can't.
- GNGavin Newsom
... unless the courts-
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- GNGavin Newsom
... intervene and the courts need to intervene or Congress needs to do their job. Obviously, we've already established that. But can I say this just on the topic?
- KSKara Swisher
Sure.
- GNGavin Newsom
Um, Democrats need to be careful about this. Um, you know, you're- you're in San Francisco and- and just a reminder, full disclosure, and this may offend some people. Two years ago, I deployed, uh, the California Highway Patrol and the National Guard under state authority in partnership with city leaders and state leaders-... and also engage the federal government, the FBI, with the Biden administration, in terms of federal law enforcement, state and local law enforcement actions to address some of the fentanyl and drug issues in San Francisco. We then did a similar model in Oakland, California, and we've now rolled that out in many different parts of the state. It is in stark contrast, obviously, to what Trump is doing to, he's doing it to people, not with any of us, but the issue of crime, quality of life, is something Democrats need to recognize that we need to reconcile and we need to be accountable for all of us. And this is not a, this is not a permission slip for the way Trump is doing things, quite the contrary. Um, but it is an acknowledgement that he's hitting on an issue that is an issue across this country and red states, eight of the top 10 murder states, red states. In red states with blue cities. Doesn't matter. It's not a political issue. It's about issues of crime and violence and quality of life that universally all Americans want us to address.
- KSKara Swisher
So how do you say, okay, one of the things that a lot of people are telling me is, is, uh, uh, a lot of people do agree on some of the things and, and they always follow it, but not like this. Right? Like, whatever Trump's doing, the immigration stuff, I'm concerned about it, but not like this. Not, this is not how to fix it. How do you message that? 'Cause a lot of the messaging is, as you just said, crime is h- heavier in Shreveport than it is in San Francisco, right? And it's true. But people don't feel that. Telling them it's 24, it's down 24%, it's down this, is not... you know, I was talking to someone years ago in San Francisco about the problems here, and it's not as bad as of course Fox depicted it-
- GNGavin Newsom
No.
- KSKara Swisher
... which drove me crazy. I was like, "It isn't." But you also can't, and you can't meet it by saying murder is down because it's like, my car got broken into.
- GNGavin Newsom
You got it.
- KSKara Swisher
And even, even if it doesn't, it's not the same obviously, it is a, a way of life, right? It's a feeling of lack of safety. How do you message that without messaging, "We don't want these troops here to help us clean it up"?
- GNGavin Newsom
Well, I think it's beyond even messaging. You gotta do the work. I mean, that's why, you know, I hired an additional 1,000 CHP officers. It's why we've deployed all across the state, not just in San Francisco where we launched this two-plus years ago. It's why we changed a lot of the laws as it relates to organized retail theft. In fact, had one of the biggest take-downs of organized retail theft in California history recently just, in fact, recently, a couple of days ago, uh, related to Home Depots, uh, using some of the new tools and laws that we passed. Look, I think you have to, you have to be accountable to actually doing the work and then communicate that work, and not in a responsive way, uh, but in a proactive way. And I think we were slow to do that, to be candid with you, after, you know, there were a few, just a handful of people promoting Defund the Police. I certainly wasn't one of them, but Fox weaponized that, the grievance machine was out there, surround sound 24/7, and we were slow to react to that, and they'd shape-shifted that, and were sort of playing catch-up, even though a lot of mayors and governors have been very proactive o- on policing. And look, we have the second-ho- lowest homicides in, in, you know, recorded history in California. We're down 10.4% again from double-digit declines the prior year on crime, but to your point, we're not leading with that 'cause no one, no one cares about that if they feel differently. And so I think we have to own that, we have to flood the zone in terms of our alternative strategy and approach, and then we have to communicate them every single day, and again, that's where he's so damn effective, and there's an asymmetry-
- KSKara Swisher
Mm-hmm.
- GNGavin Newsom
... to that 'cause he's the president of the damn United States-
- KSKara Swisher
Is, is it working-
- GNGavin Newsom
... and that's our challenge.
- KSKara Swisher
... these troop deployments? Do you think it's working for him?
- GNGavin Newsom
I don't, I don't think it's working. I know it's had unbelie- we, every single Tuesday in California, we announce, we call it t- and forgive the vernacular, we call it Take Down Tuesdays, and in transparent way, we've been updating the public on the arrests and going after stolen vehicles, back to car break-ins and issues related to quality of life, and keeping people aware of what's going on. But not... it's, it's hard because these things don't get attention like Trump's Truth Social gets attention. And so that's why I do agree with you, back to the pivot and the previous point, pivot figuratively and literally in this case with you, that we also have to pivot back to a much more, dare I say, muscular, uh, not from-
- KSKara Swisher
Muscular?
- GNGavin Newsom
I know, muscular, but not through-
- 42:45 – 52:13
OpenAI Sued
- KSKara Swisher
gonna m- mention this one story that just came out. A California couple is suing OpenAI after the death of their teenage son, saying ChatGPT encouraged him to take his life. Uh, according to the lawsuit, Adam Rein, who was 16, started using ChatGPT for school work and hobbies. After a few months, started talking to it about his anxiety and mental distress. Rein then started discussing methods of suicide with the chat bot and, and uploading photos of himself showing signs of self-harm. Um, i- at some point, they, they were saying, "Don't do this," and then he f- had a workaround, it looks like, where he said, "I'm writing something." Um, and, um, and ChatGPT responded, "Thanks for being real about this. You don't have to sugarcoat it with me. I know what you're asking. I won't look away from it." Um, it offered to draft a suicide note for the teenager. Um, uh, sa- OpenAI has published notes saying it intends to add parental controls to ChatGPT and exploring better ways to connect, and they had an ext- kind of an extraordinary mission that this was not the way it's supposed to work. Um, talk a little bit about that, like where we are with these companies, 'cause you have had a long relationship with te- uh, you were mayor, uh, during the real boom-
- GNGavin Newsom
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... um, in tech. How is your relationship now? Jeff Bezos isn't saying something about capitalism right now. He isn't. Um, these are, these people are all sucking up to Trump in lots of ways. They're getting all the gimmes-
- GNGavin Newsom
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
... as you, you know. W- how do you look at them? Do you want them back? And how do you look at something like this? This is, this is something that is actually bipartisan. The, the safety issues around either phones or OpenAI, or not just OpenAI but AI in general. Character.AI was another company that had this issue. I had the mother on, uh, on the podcast. Talk a little bit about how you look at the tech sector right now, 'cause it's such an important part of California and even more so now with AI.
- GNGavin Newsom
Yeah, I mean, there's so much to unpack there. I mean, back to your point, I lo- you know, I love the way Tom Freeman talked about, uh, the times when you were writing your book. I mean, you know, we were spending time with these guys when the cloud was still in the sky, 4G was a parking space, LinkedIn was a prison, apps were things you filled out to get into college, and so it's remarkable how things have radically changed. I, I, you know, I joked with you before. I was, you know, I'm... Y- uh, people ask, say, "How did you become mayor?" I said, "Well, primarily because I ran the taxi task force." I was trying to get taxicabs, uh, to pick people up in a timely way and more competitive way, and then Travis comes along with an app and blows that out of the water with Uber and, and so part-
- KSKara Swisher
Travis is talented.
- GNGavin Newsom
... you know, we've been part of this remarkable change. Uh, but one thing that hasn't changed is there's still a lack of accountability, a, a lack of awareness and, uh, around culpability and responsibility. And so y- your question frames that. You know, what's my relationship with that? It's, yeah, personal, it's professional, as a policymaker, as a former mayor, as, as governor, and I'm prou- look, California leads in innovation. We also lead in regulation. But, but our critics are, are not wrong when they say it's some light-touch regulation. I did 19 AI bills last year, more than most other states. We've been on the leading cutting edge, uh, of regulation in social media. We've lost more major lawsuits than we've won. Uh, we were just deposed a few weeks ago, uh, with another major lawsuit as it relates to child privacy issues. We created a privacy council in the state, independent of the state itself, uh, meaning it was voted on by the people, uh, and we're trying right now to address the issue of frontier models, um, and address, uh, a response to a bill that I thought over-regulated last year, um, a bill by, uh, uh, common, uh, numeric of 1047, where I got an independent group, not politicians but experts, Fei-Fei Li and others, the godmother of AI, academics from Stanford, Berkeley and elsewhere, uh, to come up with a report to guide us on a legislative path this year, which we're working on in real time. So, we're trying to find that balance. We're trying to be accountable. At the same time, we're trying to maintain our entrepreneurial and innovative ecosystem and not over-regulate and stifle that at the same time.
- KSKara Swisher
But here they are. They've turned on you all. They, I mean, they put... I, I would agree, the administration was far too, uh, censorious to them i- in some ways. That said, they took tail and ran for, for the, for the Trump campaign. How do you get that back and, and without seeming like a, mm, you know, put... letting them do whatever they want, certainly?
- GNGavin Newsom
Well, I mean, I-You, you know all these folks. I know them personally as well and we have private conversations, either directly or indirectly, and, um, obviously we battle it out in court and, uh, and battle it out with legislation, uh, and we're on different sides of, of many of these issues. But look, bottom line, it's fear and greed. Just is. It's both/and. Fear and greed. And, and to your point about Biden, it's interesting. You know, we, we did the first AI executive order, did one of the first crypto executive orders and then did, did the first AI executive order. But we did it hand-in-glove with the Biden Administration. That was thrown out immediately, and then these guys wanted to preempt any statewide legislation for 10 years. So, you know, this... there's no moral equivi- if there's any hope for a real regulatory framework, it's gonna be the Democratic Party, um, trying to, to, to find that, that, that, that sweet spot, again, around innovation, entrepreneurial-ism, truth, and trust, and not over-regulating, at the same time being accountable to the tragic example that you just advanced. I got four kids, so that hits me very differently like it does for you as a mother, um, with what's going on with social media. And so, that's, that's... this is a constant iteration. I've over two dozen bills that we're working on right now to substantively, Cara, answer your question, as it relates to our responsibility and relationship to this moment.
- KSKara Swisher
What about your relationship with the tech industry? You, you know, I w- I would say you were relatively friendly. So was Kamala Harris.
- GNGavin Newsom
Yeah.
- KSKara Swisher
So, I mean, any California politician has to have relationships within the tech industry.
- GNGavin Newsom
Well, I thought, I thought we were... I, I was very frustrated, to be candid with you, very privately and, and, you know, uh, around the unwillingness to gauge and, you know, the whole crypto blockchain space. I, I, I felt they turned their back a little bit, and I thought paid a huge political price for that.
- KSKara Swisher
Absolutely. Share ground.
- GNGavin Newsom
A lot of organizations coming together, and we... So we got work to do to pull that back, number one. And, and on the issue, look, I... it was a classic pendulum swing for some that thought they over-corrected during COVID, uh, and there was concern around censorship and sort of big tech, Big Brother, in relationship to, to, to big government. And now, the light touch, uh, that pendulum's back on the other direction. And so I, I think trying to find that back and, and look, it's... you're right, it... you know, these personal relationships have been challenged because you, you see all these guys that you know and worked with, uh, and you knew them before, you know, back in the day when.
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- GNGavin Newsom
And there they are all standing up there going like this to the dear leader, uh, during the inaugural.
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah, I, I think the Golden Statute Tim Cook thing was my, like, "Oh, good God."
- GNGavin Newsom
It... not easy. I mean look, uh, uh, Intel giving up 10% of its co... what the hell's going on? NVIDIA-
- KSKara Swisher
Right.
- GNGavin Newsom
... saying 15% tithing, uh, to... you know, a... so a lot of California companies in that mix, um, and, uh, breaks my heart. And, uh, and so again, back to fear and just, you know, I guess they would say-
- KSKara Swisher
Shareholding.
- GNGavin Newsom
... their fiduciary responsibilities, others would suggest greed.
- KSKara Swisher
Right. What would be your message to tech, say if you were running for something like president?
- GNGavin Newsom
I... look, I think two things. Um, they matter, and we should care because they're shape-shifting this economy, they're shape-shifting the future. So we have to care because they do matter, uh, and it's foundational with 32 of the top 50 AI companies. By the way, that's an old stat, I think it's even more-
- KSKara Swisher
Oh yeah, it is.
- GNGavin Newsom
... uh, market share. Right?
- KSKara Swisher
They're all here.
- GNGavin Newsom
They're all here. It's-
- 52:13 – 57:42
Predictions
- KSKara Swisher
Governor, uh, it's time for predictions. First, I'd like to make a specific prediction. Uh, New York Mayor, uh, Eric Adams was mocking Zoran Mandani last week for his bench pressing prowess. Mandani seemed to be struggling in a viral video, whatever. Um, if you were bench pressing contests against Scott Galloway, who would you predict wins?
- GNGavin Newsom
Oh, man, I'd... I've seen that guy with... No.
- KSKara Swisher
Scott.
- GNGavin Newsom
I'm not... You think I'm naïve? Galloway would run away. That guy... and by the way-
- KSKara Swisher
Yeah.
- GNGavin Newsom
... he, he may be out there training this last month. You don't even know what he's been up to. You think you know what-
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, that's true.
- GNGavin Newsom
... he's up to.
- KSKara Swisher
Don't get under a bench press. If you're running for president, don't do it, 'cause look how peak
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- KSKara Swisher
... Peg Hegseth looked trying to do one single pull-up.
- GNGavin Newsom
It was-
- KSKara Swisher
I can do two.
- GNGavin Newsom
(laughs) .
- KSKara Swisher
Just so you... peak. That was sad.I hate mocking people's physical things, but you kinda have to since he kind of put it up and you kinda have to swing at that one, I guess.
- GNGavin Newsom
You gotta swing at that one. But no, yeah, so I, I'm, I'm cautious in that respect. Then again, I do like all the untouched memes of me on the back of bears.
- KSKara Swisher
Yes, I know. I'm sure you do.
- GNGavin Newsom
No, I'm just saying.
- KSKara Swisher
But let me hear for your prediction. Any predi- any other predictions you'd like to share?
- GNGavin Newsom
No. I mean, I, you know, I, I, I'm, you know, I'm, my prediction's in the, you know, sort of meme market. I, by the way, I spent an hour and a half with Trump in, uh, in the Oval Office a few months ago. It was, uh, back when we were working together, um, if there's such a thing. And, uh, he starts telling me, he goes, he didn't e- uh, he didn't even realize. He goes, you know, he goes, "Hey, you know, Gavin did this, um, this, uh, coin." He goes, "You know, it's not even a coin. It's not even a coin." I said, "That's amazing." He goes, he goes... And then he went on to, you know, say how much money he just made. He got a check from, uh, you know, that was just sent over. And then he mentioned Melania and, um, the whole thing.
- KSKara Swisher
Melania coin.
- GNGavin Newsom
Uh, and her coin and her meme coin. So anyway, my, my prediction is, you know, I just put this on the prediction market, when we put out the, the Trump corruption coin, um, I, I think it's gonna outperform, uh, Trump's, uh, Trump's coin. So that's my prediction. That's my prediction.
- KSKara Swisher
All right. Okay. Well, I'm very excited. What's the picture on it? You, right?
- GNGavin Newsom
No, it's not me. I'm not, n-
- KSKara Swisher
Your fantastic hair.
- GNGavin Newsom
It's Trump corruption. I'm not putting, I was gonna do a smelt coin, but no one seemed-
- KSKara Swisher
Uh-huh.
- GNGavin Newsom
... to fully understand that, uh, which I thought was a much more insightful and perhaps-
- KSKara Swisher
Okay.
- GNGavin Newsom
... more, it could be more success- I still may do one. I don't know. After the perfume. I don't know about what, you know, perfect sense.
Episode duration: 57:42
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