Why Gavin Newsom Won't Stop Trolling Trump | Pivot

Kara Swisher 0:00 Do you have a favorite, um, of your, of your memes? Uh, calling Trump "tiny hands" was nice. Your getting prayed over by Tucker Carlson, Kid Rock, and an angelic Hulk Hogan.

Gavin Newsom 0:07 Oh, that was my favorite.

Kara Swisher 0:08 There's a lot of user-generated jesty stuff going on with you there.

Gavin Newsom 0:12 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 0:12 Um...

Gavin Newsom 0:12 They finally did some untouched photos of me without a shirt on, which is good, to finally see something that's not edited.

Kara Swisher 0:20 Yeah. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher, and this is the final day of... Scot-Free August. (air horn blows) That's my sting, I love it. We're going big for Scot-Free August grand finale. My guest co-host is a podcaster. He's also the Governor of California and possibly the only person that could match Scott in irritating me.

Gavin Newsom 0:53 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 0:53 It's Gavin Newsom. Welcome, Governor.

Gavin Newsom 0:55 (laughs) Uh, it is great to be with you, the final, the final day.

Kara Swisher 1:00 Thank you.

Gavin Newsom 1:00 When, when's Scott back?

Kara Swisher 1:02 Oh, gosh.

Gavin Newsom 1:02 When's he back?

Kara Swisher 1:03 Uh, after Labor Day. We have a day off on Labor Day because we labor a lot. Yeah, and then he's back, and then he's-

Gavin Newsom 1:08 Okay. Where's what... Has he been hibernating? Is he writing a book? What's he doing? What, what's, what's the...

Kara Swisher 1:13 No, he's in Nantucket. He's in Nantucket or in Aspen. He goes to, like, rich people vacations all over the place, and then, and then starts tweeting at the end of August because he wants to say something about... Not tweeting, he's on Threads and stuff, but he, like, starts to try to engage again, and he's desperate to get back.

Gavin Newsom 1:31 It's good to be back with you on this very special final episode of Scot-Free August.

Kara Swisher 1:38 Yes, thank you. Try to keep the hand gestures to a minimum, because I'm very irritated with the President.

Gavin Newsom 1:40 I know, I'm very sensitive. And you... I mean, if people didn't see, Trump attacked my hand motions. He said that was, uh... So I'm very sensitive now. You're right.

Kara Swisher 1:48 Yes.

Gavin Newsom 1:48 I'm gonna... I'm just gonna... Forgive me. You're not gonna see them again. I'll do my best.

Kara Swisher 1:52 No. I like your hand motions. It's such a... What's wrong with you? He does a lot of hand motions.

Gavin Newsom 1:56 Well, that was-

Kara Swisher 1:57 Every accusation is a confession with you people.

Gavin Newsom 1:57 That was just another, another example of projection.

Kara Swisher 2:01 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 2:01 Just one more, one more than you need.

Kara Swisher 2:03 Projection?

Gavin Newsom 2:03 That's it.

Kara Swisher 2:04 Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna get to that today. We've got lots of important issues, redistricting, the Fed, Big Tech. Um, so talk... I, I think the most important thing we have to discuss is, what do you think about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce's engagement?

Gavin Newsom 2:16 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 2:16 I think it's hard not to talk about that.

Gavin Newsom 2:18 Breaking the internet, breaking the internet. I, I was just thinking, uh, you think it's gonna be a big wedding or a small wedding? You think they'll do the opposite of what many think, people think? And where are they gonna get married?

Kara Swisher 2:29 How big?

Gavin Newsom 2:29 Where are they gonna get married?

Kara Swisher 2:29 Oh, like a Jeff Bezos thing?

Gavin Newsom 2:31 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 2:31 Like, that big.

Gavin Newsom 2:31 I think it's gonna be a little more... My sense is it's gonna be smaller.

Kara Swisher 2:34 I think it'll be s-

Gavin Newsom 2:34 More mi-... Yeah, I just think they're gonna intentionally do something to surprise people.

Kara Swisher 2:38 Smaller, wow. Oh, interesting. Not like a Super Bowl stadium kind of thing?

Gavin Newsom 2:41 No, I don't, I don't expect it's gonna be all that.

Kara Swisher 2:43 No?

Gavin Newsom 2:43 No, I think it's gonna be family. I think it's gonna be much more just communal. I just, I don't expect it to be over the top.

Kara Swisher 2:49 Did he catch you off guard?

Gavin Newsom 2:51 No, they didn't catch me off guard.

Kara Swisher 2:52 No. Are you gonna be invited?

Gavin Newsom 2:54 Come on, I don't know these... I don't know them. Th- That's... I'm... Literally never met either of them. I do have a one... You know, sorry, um, and I don't mean to do a little Trump thing on you, but I have a vineyard, uh, that is-

Kara Swisher 3:05 Oh, please.

Gavin Newsom 3:06 That's 13th Vineyard. It's a 13th license, uh, in Napa.

Kara Swisher 3:10 Mm-hmm.

Gavin Newsom 3:11 And so I sent a bottle of 13th wine, uh, to her suite at the Super Bowl. That's my biggest connection to Taylor Swift. I have no other connection, because she loves-

Kara Swisher 3:21 Okay.

Gavin Newsom 3:22 She loves the number 13.

Kara Swisher 3:22 Do you want to have the wedding on your vineyard? Do you think she'd have-

Gavin Newsom 3:25 I just... No, I'm not promoting that.

Kara Swisher 3:27 Do, do you think she'd have...

Gavin Newsom 3:28 I mean, uh, that, that's the closest I am to Taylor Swift, besides politics. Clearly, we share politics.

Kara Swisher 3:34 Okay, all right. Are you happy? Do you think this is a good thing, this, like, real wedding?

Gavin Newsom 3:36 I think it's a great thing. I want her to be happy. She seems like a lovely person.

Kara Swisher 3:40 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 3:41 And he's the real deal.

Kara Swisher 3:42 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 3:42 I have deep respect for him.

Kara Swisher 3:44 She does.

Gavin Newsom 3:44 So, you know what? We need more. We need a little bit of happiness in a world where we're so fu-... I mean, come on. This has been hard every day, including what happened this morning, uh, the first week-

Kara Swisher 3:53 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 3:53 ... of school, right, in Minneapolis. So-

Kara Swisher 3:55 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 3:55 This is, uh... So we can all use a little bit of that.

Kara Swisher 3:57 Yeah, in the shooting, too.

Gavin Newsom 3:58 A little bit of love.

Kara Swisher 3:59 That's true. That's true. We can move on if you tell me your favorite song of hers. (laughs)

Gavin Newsom 4:06 (laughs) Uh, well, I, I, I like all of her new songs from the old ou- uh, from the old catalog.

Kara Swisher 4:13 Oh.

Gavin Newsom 4:13 So this is proving I'm a Swiftie.

Kara Swisher 4:16 The old catalog?

Gavin Newsom 4:16 No. Well, I like the old cat-

Kara Swisher 4:17 Oh, the 2000s.

Gavin Newsom 4:17 But I like all the new versions, Taylor Versions of all the new songs. So that's how comprehensive my respect for her and love is.

Kara Swisher 4:26 Oh, these newer versions. Yeah. Okay. All right. (laughs) I'll move on from her. Anyway, we wish you well, Travis. I mean, Travis and, and Taylor. It's gonna be, TT. It's gonna be great. Um, uh, may are get married in California, right? Get married soon.

Gavin Newsom 4:36 I hope so.

Kara Swisher 4:37 Get married soon.

Gavin Newsom 4:37 Yeah, I expect so.

Kara Swisher 4:38 That's my little pitch. But I want to ask you about a less dynamic duo, Sean Hannity and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. They've challenged you to another debate. Will you accept?

Gavin Newsom 4:47 Uh, you know, well-

Kara Swisher 4:47 We're getting in the little news first.

Gavin Newsom 4:48 Well, I think it's interesting that they challenged me, because it only reinforced the first debate was Sean Hannity and Ron DeSantis. It wasn't against Ron DeSantis and the network and the platform itself, Fox. Uh, I think they're, uh... I forgot. I don't mean to be too dismissive, but honestly, I kind of forgot that Ron DeSantis is still governor, uh, and it was sort of a bit of a reminder. And I think maybe that's, that's what it's all about.

Kara Swisher 5:13 (laughs) A debate.

Gavin Newsom 5:13 Yeah, I think they're having a hard time over there at Fox.

Kara Swisher 5:15 That's a... Would you do it?

Gavin Newsom 5:16 I have no interest whatsoever.

Kara Swisher 5:18 Yeah. Yeah, they are. It's-

Gavin Newsom 5:18 Literally, it's sub-zero interest.

Kara Swisher 5:21 You've become quite a bit of the, of the debate over there.

Gavin Newsom 5:23 You-

Kara Swisher 5:23 Like, they talk about you constantly.

Gavin Newsom 5:25 Yeah, no. It's a, it's a bit of an obsession. Uh, and, uh, and so... No, he's, uh... (laughs) Uh, Sean and I have, uh... I don't know. We're a little bit of separation now. Uh, I was gauging... You know, as you know, I went out... A couple of years ago, on a serious note-... are really, s- sort of challenged, uh, a lot of my Democratic friends were upset, started showing up on Fox. Uh, I did this sit-down interview with Sean. It was over an hour and a half, uh, you know, unedited. I said, "Look, if you're gonna come and interview me, let's do it, but, uh, no edits, and let's, you know, y- go after me, and I'll..." You know, back and forth. And to his credit, they did multiple segments and, and aired the entire interview, uh, unedited. And I, you know, I sort of stayed in touch, and that ultimately led to a debate, uh, with Ron DeSantis, and, and, and a debate within my own party. Should we even condone? Should we show up? Should we be on these platforms? You're just elevating, you know, them, or at least validating-

Kara Swisher 6:22 Mm-hmm.

Gavin Newsom 6:22 ... them in some respects, and I thought it was important that we gotta meet people where they are, and we've gotta get in the bloodstream of, of those we disagree with. And so, I've tried-

Kara Swisher 6:29 Yeah, y-

Gavin Newsom 6:29 ... to maintain that, and I think it's important. Uh, but I think they're, they've l- they're way o- Um, they've completely lost the plot over there at Fox.

Kara Swisher 6:38 So, let, let... So, are you gonna do the debate or not? Do you know?

Gavin Newsom 6:41 I'm not. (laughs) I have no interest in the debate.

Kara Swisher 6:42 No.

Gavin Newsom 6:42 Every single night, there'd be-

Kara Swisher 6:44 No interest. You, you've moved on from Ron DeSantis.

Gavin Newsom 6:44 There's a, a bit of a... You know, I, I, I, I... Look, I'm the first to acknowledge the Trump derangement syndrome, but they have a California derangement syndrome, and increasingly-

Kara Swisher 6:52 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 6:53 ... uh, derangement syndrome about me on Fox. I think the other night, they did seven or eight segments, uh, with their primetime lineup. It's, it's a little... It's not over the top. It's, it's way over the top, and of course-

Kara Swisher 7:04 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 7:04 ... at this moment, you may know this, I'm suing them as well for defamation.

Kara Swisher 7:07 Mm-hmm.

Gavin Newsom 7:07 And I don't do that lightly.

Kara Swisher 7:09 Right.

Gavin Newsom 7:09 I, I'm, I'm... been on the receiving end of them as the punching bag for years and years and years. It's not about the criticism coming out of there. It's just the just outright lies, mis- and disinformation, and so we are, we're taking them to task, and we've got that defamation lawsuit-

Kara Swisher 7:23 Your lawsuit's about-

Gavin Newsom 7:24 ... in Delaware.

Kara Swisher 7:25 ... a conversation you had with Donald Trump, right?

Gavin Newsom 7:27 Yeah, a conversation-

Kara Swisher 7:29 When you were elected.

Gavin Newsom 7:29 ... they said I, that, uh, that never, that we never had. The president said we had a day before that never existed, uh, and, uh, and they came out and they said I lied about it, and they, they, they shared that, uh, on all their platforms, and they shared that around the world. I had people... Honestly, it was, like, i- interesting. Carol, I, th- for all the stuff that's on Fox, you know, s- people are socialized. They turn on Fox. They'll, they'll, uh, see people like me getting, uh, attacked. But this, this one broke into fr- folks that I knew well, said, "Hey, man, why are... Why'd you lie about that?" I said, "What do you mean I lied about it?" And I, s- you know, saw the ............................ says, "Gavin lie," and it was just they knowingly lied about the conversation, uh, that never occurred, and the conversation that did occur, uh, they did not contextualize, and they just crossed the line. And, you know, I thought after all the Dominion stuff and everything else, uh, they had honestly at least, at least feigned to change their ways, and they clearly haven't.

Kara Swisher 8:24 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, we'll see what happens there. But one of the things that's imp- important is you are the topic of discussion. Part of it is 'cause of the stuff you're up to right now, which I think is really interesting. As you know, um, we've talked about it a little bit. We text

Kara Swisher 8:36 about it. But I want to talk about your new role. I guess troll in chief? I don't know. As one newspaper put it. But in the last few weeks, you've flooded social media with all-caps posts, insults, AI-generated memes mocking Trump and his policies. You recently got into the merch game, selling MAGA-inspired Bibles, hat, red hats, and even Make America Gavin Again flag (laughs) , which is really funny. Fox News has been melting down, as you said. Dana Perino said if she were your wife, she'd tell you you're making a fool of yourself. And while a lot of liberals are loving this, you have, uh, critics on the left who, of course, who say the Democrat needs, party needs to do more than be an anti-Trump party. I disagree. I think this is highly effective, especially that you're not stopping. So, talk about the strategy.

Gavin Newsom 9:15 Well, I just wanted to put a mirror up to the absurdity of all of this, and I wish Dana Perino and others w- have made that point months and months, years ago. All the all-cap tweets, the Trump putting himself on memes wi- as the Pope, or putting him on memes as Superman or, or with his shirt off and, and, you know, and, uh, on top of, uh, you know, different, you know, th- you know, uh, superhero characters or, you know, dinosaurs. I mean, it just... It's comical. And yet, it's become so normalized and socialized in a way that's not even critiqued, uh, in, in the extreme right. And so I just wanted to challenge that and challenge all these pundits out there, challenge all these people, all these acolytes, people that are just fawning over a guy who puts his picture up on, uh, Mount Rushmore, uh, that does, uh, uh, does text like a 13-year-old or a 10-year-old. Uh, it's humiliating. It's embarrassing. And so this is the, this is the mirror, and it's a mirror not just to Trump himself, uh, but to these, you know, these networks that, uh, you know, th- that, th- you know, these guys are... talk about... You know, th- these are the chatbots for the administration, uh, and it's not just Fox. It's One American News, it's Newsmax, and it's all the folks in the right-wing media, and, uh, I'm glad they're melting down over it. I'm glad they're, they're, they're challe- I mean, they... Their situational unawareness is rather jaw-dropping, uh, and we'll keep at it.

Kara Swisher 10:33 So, what was the strategy? How did you come up with it? Um, and, and, uh, you, you, you have given credit to the whole team in creating these memes, but-

Gavin Newsom 10:41 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 10:41 ... it does... Uh, someone asked me about it. I said, "Well, it just... This does sound like him, th- the person I know."

Gavin Newsom 10:45 I appreciate it. Look, I think it's... Th- there's, there's, um, there's, um, there's a, uh, one answer to that, and then there's a subtext. This thing really is... It's about iteration. I've always been willing to try new things. So, I'm always trying, uh, to, you know, challenge my team, just, "Let's see what works." I mean, that's why I went on Fox. That's why I did the debate with Ron DeSantis. It's why I went... I was one of the first Democrats to go on Truth Social. That's why I started a PAC a few years ago and only went to red states and started raising awareness in re- in resources in parts of the country where I feel the Democratic Party walked away. And, and so it's part of that, but it's also specifically part of what we were s- wha- what we were on the receiving end of after the fires in January in LA. Uh-

Kara Swisher 11:26 And before that.

Gavin Newsom 11:27 A- a- and, and just a different level of...... of mis- and disinformation. And to your point about before that, look, the recall, these guys, I, you know, I'm, I'm romantic. I always think all politics is local, I was sort of born and bred with that construct, but that's not the case, obviously. And I intellectualized that, but I never fully internalized it until the recall. And I had guys like Newt Gingrich, and I, I had folks like Mike Huckabee and the RNC nationalizing their grievance. And of course, all the folks at Fox and One America News, et cetera, coming after us. So, I started to shift our approach then. It really got into high gear after the fires when Trump and Elon Musk were coming after us, and they were winning on the just rank lies about water policy and all the BS. But the National Guard-

Kara Swisher 12:11 The lawsuits, yeah.

Gavin Newsom 12:11 ... the, Kara, the National Guard and what they did to federalize 4,000, uh, of our National Guard men and women and put 700 active-duty military, uh, on the streets of LA, that's when we just said, "We're on the other side of this." And we told the team, um, it's no permission slip now, not even forgiveness. You just go, and we go hard, and we don't stop.

Kara Swisher 12:34 And you don't stop. That's what's interesting about it, because it's relentless, which is very different. It, I had told, I think it was Kamala Harris, like, "You've gotta be almost promiscuous now s- from a social media point of view. You have to be everywhere constantly and not stopping," which I think characterizes this quite a bit. And do, when, when you hear criticism that's too much or cringy or even from the left or right, how, how do you answer that?

Gavin Newsom 12:56 I, you know how I answered it? (laughs) Kind of interesting, uh, 'cause I haven't really said this publicly, but, um, I send my team a, uh, a, a YouTube video of Marshawn Lynch on 60 Minutes Sports when he was asked his running style, and he says, going into the frontline, he goes, "Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again." Um, and, and, and so this notion of communication, I could not agree with you more. Trump's success is the simplicity to which he communicates the same thing, uh, in that cadence, over and over and over and over and over again. And we move week to week. It's infrastructure week, and all of a sudden, now it's childcare week, and it's foster care week. Uh, and as a consequence, we have weak messaging, and they're winning the narrative war. Illusion r- rules. Facts don't matter. That's what Fox understands. That's what Trump understands. He floods the zone, and we're constantly on our heels and not on our front toes. And so what we're trying to do is, yes, fight fire with fire with the redistricting substance and in terms of our communications style, and we're trying to keep at it, and we've done it. Look, you mentioned, you know, the, the, the Patriot Store. You know, he just, look at the stuff he's selling. Perfumes?

Kara Swisher 14:08 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 14:08 This is embarrassing. The guy's hawking Bibles. Ours is sold out. So if you want it, sorry, it's sold out. Um, you know...

Kara Swisher 14:15 (laughs) I was hoping to get one.

Gavin Newsom 14:15 And if you want a real prediction, I know we talked about the, the Taylor Swift prediction. Uh, the real prediction is, you know, we're about to put a meme coin out, and you know what, Donald Trump? Uh, we'll see how well your coin does versus our coin. I mean, it- it, we're just trying...

Kara Swisher 14:29 Oh, you're doing a coin. Of course, you are.

Gavin Newsom 14:30 ... trying to tune up, to turn up the heat and trying to tune people into the absurdity.

Kara Swisher 14:35 Is it gonna be called Gavin Coin? Is that...

Gavin Newsom 14:36 No, it's, I think Trump Corruption Coin.

Kara Swisher 14:39 Oh, okay. (laughs)

Gavin Newsom 14:40 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 14:40 That's a little

Gavin Newsom 14:40 ... This is one of the great grifters of our time. I mean, this is just jaw-dropping. And none of this is normal. Again, this, none of this is funny.

Kara Swisher 14:46 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 14:46 I mean, it's funny in one respect, but it's like...

Kara Swisher 14:48 It is, you're being funny. Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 14:49 It's extraordinary what's going on. It's jaw-dropping. His family is sent out before these foreign trips doing deals. Deals are literally done before tariffs are imposed. The crony capitalism that's going on, the people that are selling their souls, uh, in this country. The fact that you saw there, these guys bloviating at that... I mean, that was, I mean, insanity yesterday...

Kara Swisher 15:14 Yeah, the Cabinet meeting. You're talking about the Cabinet meeting.

Gavin Newsom 15:14 ... at the Cabinet meeting.

Kara Swisher 15:14 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 15:15 And Lutnick talking about socializing and nationalizing companies like Lockheed. I mean, this is... And you're worried about Mandani in some grocery stores? And these guys are taking tithings from AMD, 15% from NVIDIA. I mean, th- this is serious stuff. And so, the, the graft and the corruption, uh, the self-dealing, um, is, uh, is something that we'll continue to call out and, and just to be... I- I'm, I'm, I'm really worried about this country. I think we've crossed the red line. I think it is much more acute and profound, uh, than, than many people think.

Kara Swisher 15:50 Mm-hmm.

Gavin Newsom 15:50 And I'm just trying to wake people up.

Kara Swisher 15:52 I agree.

Gavin Newsom 15:52 That's what this is all about, wake up everybody.

Kara Swisher 15:54 So what is, what is the next? What is the ne- is, it has to be this aggression, correct? Which I, again, I think is the correct method. Others, you know, I think the Democratic Party is far too weak in that regard, in terms of behaving when they're not behaving, right? That kind of thing.

Gavin Newsom 16:10 Yeah, look, I mean, I, I, I, I, it was so indelible. I don't know why I'm supposed... you know, it's stuck, uh, years and years in my mindset. And I remember, uh, you know, and it's, it's been well discussed, but I- I'll, I'll repeat it for the few folks that don't remember it. But after we got shellacked in one of the midterms, I think Clinton was out of office, and the Democratic Party lost, and people were trying to sort of hand-wring, and we were trying to figure out if we all sh- need to go to Applebee's, and we were reading Applebee's America, and we all just, you know, we need to, you know, we, we need to go to the heartland, all this messaging stuff. And Bill Clinton just summed it up, he said, "Given the choice, given the choice, the American people will always support strong and wrong versus weak and right." And I've been doing a lot of forensics, as you know, and, and people have criticized me for having folks that, you know, my party disagrees with vehemently, like Charlie Kirk or Steve Bannon or Newt Gingrich or even, you know, old-school, uh, conservatives like, uh, Michael Savage on. I, it- it's... To try to understand what the hell's happened to my party, the Democratic Party. But, uh, the more I've sort of mined it, the more I've gotten into the issues and reflected, uh, on what's happened, I think it comes down... I mean, at the core, it comes down to what you just said. It's about weakness.... we appear so damn weak, and I, I can't take it anymore. And I think we... our brand has struggled, we're suffering from that. And so what I'm trying to express is a desire to s- push back, to punch these guys back in the mouth. Forgive me. I, I know it's hard. Yes, fight fire-

Kara Swisher 17:41 No, I-

Gavin Newsom 17:41 ... with fire, and just that's what it's about.

Kara Swisher 17:42 You know I wished you'd have punched harder with those interviews. So in that... my whole thing was... for example, the Tucker Carlson interview with Ted Cruz was a lot better than yours with Bannon. That's what I would say. That's... you know what I mean? You had an opportunity to engage with him. Why not engage-

Gavin Newsom 17:54 Well, you know-

Kara Swisher 17:54 ... you know? And this-

Gavin Newsom 17:55 And, and forgive me. Uh, you know, that was my second ever podcast.

Kara Swisher 17:58 Okay, all right, fine.

Gavin Newsom 17:58 I'm not the pro that, uh, some of these others are-

Kara Swisher 18:00 (laughs)

Gavin Newsom 18:01 ... but I appreciate the insight.

Kara Swisher 18:02 Right, right.

Gavin Newsom 18:02 But also-

Kara Swisher 18:02 Okay.

Gavin Newsom 18:02 ... let me say this. And, and sincerely, that's not... That's... I, I... when I started the podcast, I said... I was very clear what this is and what this wasn't. I said, "I'm not... you wanna see me debate, see, tune into Fox. You know, go online, see what I do every single day. I have no problem fighting these guys. I have no fighting debating." But what that... but, but what I'm trying to do is have a civil conversation because-

Kara Swisher 18:25 Right.

Gavin Newsom 18:25 ... I wanna understand. What, you know, is... I think the main, amazing thing about the Bannon interview was I thought I was interviewing Bernie Sanders for half of it.

Kara Swisher 18:33 Yeah. Right.

Gavin Newsom 18:33 He was talking about populism. He was making the case for California's-

Kara Swisher 18:36 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 18:36 ... tax code. Steve Bannon was.

Kara Swisher 18:37 Mm-hmm. Right.

Gavin Newsom 18:38 Uh, and, you know, I thought it was... there was interesting aspects of that. And I think we're so tuned up in terms of wanting to tune people out because we reject-

Kara Swisher 18:48 Right. Agree.

Gavin Newsom 18:48 ... obvious flaws that I wanna create a space for folks where at least they could feel like we can have a civil dialogue. And I totally get-

Kara Swisher 18:55 So now they seem-

Gavin Newsom 18:55 ... people upset about it.

Kara Swisher 18:56 They, they rather see nervous about you now, which is why... hence the attacks, correct? Presumably, that's wh- it seems to be working for you, right?

Gavin Newsom 19:04 Well, yeah.

Kara Swisher 19:04 Or, or against them.

Gavin Newsom 19:05 And I, and I, I'm trying not to make it for me. I... look, I, I do think, you know, once a mind is stretched, it never goes back to its original form. I think Donald Trump understands that. It's why throws things out. He sees what works. He's got his focus group, which is his rallies, and he's... increasingly, he's doing that with the media. He does that every day, sort of testing those boundaries. And I'm, I'm, I'm trying to do the same a little bit as it relates to communication style, how we're iterating, trying new things, and, and trying to encourage other people. I'll take the arrows in the back. I'll, I'll, I'll do the first mover, but, but hopefully get other people to feel a little more comfortable in that space. And, uh, you know, I see it a little bit... I saw it Ken Martin-

Kara Swisher 19:41 They seem to

Narrator 19:42 That's weird.

Gavin Newsom 19:42 ... at the DNC. He was a little more aggress- I, I like-

Kara Swisher 19:44 That's weird.

Gavin Newsom 19:44 I feel like we're getting back on our feet.

Kara Swisher 19:46 Okay. So do you have a... I, I'm gonna get to the more serious thing of the redistricting, but what... do you have a favorite, um, of your, of your memes? Uh, calling Trump Tiny Hands was nice. You're getting prayed over by Tucker Carlson, Kid Rock, and an angelic Hulk Hogan.

Gavin Newsom 19:58 Uh, that was my favorite.

Kara Swisher 19:58 There's a lot of user-generated jesty stuff going on with you there.

Gavin Newsom 20:02 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 20:02 Uh-

Gavin Newsom 20:02 They finally did some untouched photos of me-

Kara Swisher 20:04 (laughs)

Gavin Newsom 20:04 ... without a shirt on, which is good-

Kara Swisher 20:06 (laughs)

Gavin Newsom 20:06 ... to finally see something that's not-

Kara Swisher 20:07 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 20:07 ... edited.

Kara Swisher 20:09 (laughs) Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 20:09 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 20:09 Okay. Is there one that you like, that you're like, "Well done, team?"

Gavin Newsom 20:12 No. I, I thought-

Kara Swisher 20:13 It's a team of people, right?

Gavin Newsom 20:14 I, I... come on. I, I think Hulk... God bless Hulk. I, I'm sorry for his passing, his family's loss, but, uh, I think that Tucker, Kid Rock... come on. That's why it's a T-shirt. It's available on the Patriot site.

Kara Swisher 20:26 (laughs)

Gavin Newsom 20:26 Uh, and, you know, and, and before the meme coin, uh, as I said-

Kara Swisher 20:30 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 20:30 ... the Bible's already sold out. And, uh-

Kara Swisher 20:32 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 20:32 ... I, I'd encourage you to... that's gonna be limited edition, that, that T-shirt.

Kara Swisher 20:36 Okay. I'm excited for the stake. Where do the proceeds from the Patriot Shop go, in the meme coin?

Gavin Newsom 20:40 They... uh, well, in the meme coin that will soon be the Trump corruption coin, available, uh, to all of you. Uh, all of those go to our Campaign for Democracy. They go for, uh, this effort on the redistricting. They go into-

Kara Swisher 20:52 Redistricting.

Gavin Newsom 20:53 They, they go into this effort. They go into our effort to continue, uh, to raise awareness and continue to communicate and organize.

Kara Swisher 21:00 Um,

Kara Swisher 21:01 but let's talk more seriously that your trolling has kicked into high gear about redistricting fight that started-

Gavin Newsom 21:05 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 21:05 ... in Texas and quickly spread across the country. You signed two redistricting bills last week and called a special election for voters to approve the new congressional map aimed at countering Texas, adding five new GOP seats. Um, if the ballot measure passes, Democrats could pick up as many as five House seats in 2026. And meanwhile, Trump said this week that DOJ will sue California over the move. Um, it's also re- uh, uh, divisive a little bit. Former California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has been vocal in opposing the plan. But on the other hand, Danny DeVito chipped in $1,000 to support it-

Gavin Newsom 21:34 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 21:35 ... for people who don't know that. Um, you're driving a wedge between the classic, uh, twins, stars-

Gavin Newsom 21:40 Twins.

Kara Swisher 21:40 ... from the '80s.

Gavin Newsom 21:40 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 21:41 Um, talk a little bit about the... what you're doing here. And of course, there's been innumerable think pieces of... is... has he bitten off more than he can chew? Is this the way to go? Could other red state governors start to participate as well as blue state governor?

Gavin Newsom 21:54 Well, that's a pretty naive-

Kara Swisher 21:55 It could turn into a-

Gavin Newsom 21:56 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 21:56 ... arms race kind of thing.

Gavin Newsom 21:56 Of course it's... but of course, they're gonna do that anyway. I mean, that, that punditry is so naive, it's not even worth the paper it's printed on. I mean, the idea that, that Trump was gonna stop at Texas was absurd to begin with. Remember, it was Trump who started this. Uh, they drew for- prover of first blood. It was Trump that called Abbott, said, "I am entitled..." not the words he used in that first phone call, but weeks later, he said he's entitled to five seats. He is trying to rig the election before one vote is cast. What more evidence did we need than January 6th, where he tried to light democracy on fire and wreck this country and tried to dial up for 11, almost 12,000 votes to the Secretary of State in Georgia. Now, he's doing it in plain sight. You saw him yesterday. He was in the Oval Office with the Speaker of the Indiana Legislature and the Senate, uh, Chair, saying, "We need to do what JD Vance was assigned to tell you to do a week ago. You need to move in Indiana, in Missouri." And of course, uh, Ron DeSantis will do anything the guy asks in order to get back in his good graces. So these guys are going. They're not screwing around, and we can't screw around either. And so, yeah, we're pushing back. We'll, we'll neutralize what's happened in Texas, but we need other Democrats in other states to do the same thing. This is it. You don't get a do-over.This thing can end. This is that serious.

Kara Swisher 23:19 So, is that happening? How are you or- how are you organizing them?

Gavin Newsom 23:21 Well, we're try- I'm trying to back to this notion once a mind is str- I'm hoping the legislative leaders in those states are putting pressure. I know the governors, like Moore and others, Wes Moore, uh, has talked about it in Maryland. Obviously, Kathy Hochul's talked a little bit about it. Uh, Pritzker's talked a-a bit about it, but we gotta move. You know, it... As we pray, we have to move our feet. It's action. So we gotta go and... Look, back to biting off a lot, we can ch- l- I get that. You know, we had to do it in different way. We're doing it in a transparent way, a temporary way where we're keeping our independent redistricting, which we've had for 15 years, but in a temporary basis, we're responding to what Trump has done and what Texas has done in an emergency manner in '26, '28 and, and, and, and in 2030 for congressional seats only. And we're doing it in the most democratic way of any state in US history. There's never been maps put to the voters so they'll decide-

Kara Swisher 24:15 To special election.

Gavin Newsom 24:15 ... for themselves.

Kara Swisher 24:15 As opposed to the, to the separate majority in a, in a state for instance, Texas has done.

Gavin Newsom 24:19 Yeah or, or whatever Mar-a-Lago map, you know, riding folks are, are sending their way which... I mean, this is... So, you know, this, this is the contrast in the approach, um, and, and again we're just... We're trying to be accountable to this moment. I, I'm not interested in holding hands and talking about the world should be. I, I'm not going to be the ex-governor sitting there in some think-tank putting out a white paper saying demo-... You know, I, I can't take that anymore. Enough everybody.

Kara Swisher 24:47 Right, right.

Gavin Newsom 24:47 We got-

Kara Swisher 24:48 So do you-

Gavin Newsom 24:48 ... to get in the ring.

Kara Swisher 24:49 Do you feel that you'll be able to neutralize, you and other blue state governors be able to do that?

Gavin Newsom 24:54 I just... You know, I hope so but even if we can't, they know that... Trump did this 'cause he knows he's going to lose and he knows he's going to lose because he's singularly the most-

Kara Swisher 25:02 He's lost in Iowa.

Gavin Newsom 25:03 Yeah, he's the most but he's the mo- we lost yesterday in Iowa, uh, in, in that, in that local race which was great, that statewide race. But the point being, he continues to lose. He's gonna lose in Virginia, he's gonna lose in New Jersey in those governor's races. He's gonna continue, uh, to see... His polls are some of the worst in American history. His policies are the most unpopular, uh, in modern American history. He's flailing every single day. That's what all these threats and the mortgage stuff is all about, going after enemies, threatening to arrest people. He's falling apart, uh, and as I, you know, continue to say, he's weakness masquerading as strength. And so we have to be assertive and we have to recognize that there are no limits with this guy, and he'll do... If he can rig next year's election, you're not... I mean, we joke about not having another one. I don't think that's a joke. He will wire this for the next 20, 30 years if it's a JD or if it's a don- I don't... It doesn't even matter, he will wire it. He's already sending out masked people, uh, eh, to intimidate folks. When we launched our campaign, he did it down in Little Tokyo in LA. Do you think ICE is not gonna show up around voting and polling booths to chill participation? You know that. The National Guard, you know that. Everybody knows what's at stake so we have to put a stake in the ground and do things differently.

Kara Swisher 26:22 For all the funny stuff you're doing, you're, you're absolutely right. And what do you say to people like Schwarzenegger and others, Munger, who want... Who are like let's not do this, let's, let's not go here?

Gavin Newsom 26:31 Well, it's romantic. I wanna... I, I... We can do a group hug, uh, we can, you know, we can talk, you know. I, I wanna, I wanna go back to that place too but we're not in it. I mean, it's just a... Uh, they've lost the plot about the world we're living in right now. Trump doesn't play by a different set of rules, he doesn't play by any rules. You're a fool if you engage in a contest playing by the rules and the other side doesn't play by any rules. The consequences of that are profound. This is about our, the architecture of our country. This is about co-equal branches of government, popular sovereignty. This is about the rule of law versus the rule of Don. There is no independent redistricting to those two in the future if Trump wires this election. There's none. It's over. They have to recognize that and, and I, I get why they're holding on, uh, to this, this romantic notion, and by the way, I respect their point of view so much so that we maintain the Independent Redistricting Commission but in an emergency manner, we respond to this moment.

Kara Swisher 27:38 Emergency manner. So summed up, it's the Patrick Swayze Roadhouse rule, "Be, be nice until it's time not to be nice."

Gavin Newsom 27:43 Yeah. I mean, you know, I guess. And look, I, we all wanna be nice and we all wanna get back to that. You know, we, we want the, the Aaron Sorkin, we want the music in the background. I want that. We all wanna go back to West Wing. You know, I wanna s-... You know, but, uh, that's not, that's not Trump's America and it may not be the United States of America if we don't wake up. Wake up everybody.

Kara Swisher 28:06 All right Governor, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Trump's unprecedented move to control the Fed, another version of this. Support for Pivot comes from Grüns. If you've ever done a deep internet dive trying to discover different nutrition solutions, you've likely had the thought, "Surely there's a way to improve my skin, gut health, immunity, brain fog without offending my taste buds?" Well there is, it's called Grüns. Grüns are a convenient comprehensive formula packed into a daily snack pack of gummies. It's not a multivitamin, a greens gummy or a prebiotic, it's all of those things and then some for a fraction of the price. In a Grüns daily snack pack, you get more than 20 vitamins and minerals, six grams of prebiotic fiber plus more than 60 ingredients. They include nutrient-dense and whole foods, all of which will help you out in different ways. For example, Grüns has six times the gut health ingredients compared to the leading greens powders. It contains biotin and niacinamide which helps with thicker hair, nails and skin health. They also contain mushrooms which can help with brain function. And, of course, you're probably familiar with vitamin C and how great it's for your immune system, on top of all Grüns are vegan and free of dairy, nuts and gluten. Get up to 52% off when you go to gruns.co and use the code PIVOT. That's G-R-U-N-S.co using the code PIVOT for 52% off.

Kara Swisher 29:32 Governor Newsom, we're back tr- but, uh, President Trump is escalating his push to control the Federal Reserve, announcing this week he's removing federal Governor Lisa Cook. Trump posted his letter to Cook on Truth Social, saying there was quote, "Sufficient cause for removal," citing unproven allegations of mortgage fraud. Cook plans to sue, with her lawyer arguing Trump has no authority to order the firing. It looks like that. The Fed, for its part, is defending its independence, but says it will abide by whatever the courts decide. This is almost certainly going to the Supreme Court. Um, talk a little bit about this, and then I wanna talk about what's happening in the cities that you referenced before.

Gavin Newsom 30:03 No, I mean, it's- it's what we were just talking about in the last section. It's- it's not the rule of law, it's the rule of Don. Um, there's- there are no constraints anymore. Uh, and with this Supreme Court, there may actually not be any constraints. Already eliminated one co-equal branch of government. Ron Johnson's run to the woods. He's- it's irrelevant. Uh, th- th- th- so-

Kara Swisher 30:23 It's Mike Johnson.

Gavin Newsom 30:24 It's whatever his name is.

Kara Swisher 30:25 (laughs)

Gavin Newsom 30:26 Uh, he's the representative of a district, Shreveport-Lafrenah, that has six times the murder rate of Nancy Pelosi's San Francisco. It's- i- it's that guy that I'm referring to. Um, and- and so there is no co-equal branch going. And the question is, is there a third branch, the, uh, the- the judicial branch? And with the Supreme Court, it's an open-ended question. And so it's an open-ended question of whether or not he, quote unquote, "for cause," uh, can have her fired. And if he can have her fired, he can have any of the board members fired, not just Chair Powell, and then he can start getting rid of all the regional presidents. So now you don't have an independent, uh, monetary system. You don't have the truth and trust around the globe. Um, and now we're in, what? Argentina? We're in Turkey. Uh, we're back to, you know, the good old days of Nixon and, you know, the inflationary impacts of his decisions and impacts on the Fed policy th- that we all enjoyed in the '70s. And- and so this is, again, just another proof point of the world we're living in and why it's essential that everyone disabuse themselves that we can operate as we have in the past.

Kara Swisher 31:30 Do you imagine w- where he's gonna strike next? I mean, obviously, he- he's talking of militaries in more cities.

Kara Swisher 31:36 Um, as we talk on Wednesday, the president is still suggesting Chicago, Baltimore, and New York are next. He's mentioned San Francisco. The president has said, quote, "I have the right to do anything I want. I'm the president of United States," in response to sending the National Guard to Chicago. Speaking of deploying troops, uh, to Baltimore, Trump wrote, "If Westmore needs help, like Gavin Newsom did in LA, I will send in the troops." Meanwhile, in DC, the National Guard who were sent to deal with a crime emergence have been picking up trash as a part of a beautification mission. What- what say you? Because you... Did he help you in LA? Was- was there any-

Gavin Newsom 32:06 Yeah. No, I mean, we could have u- we could have used the help because we had to protect the National Guard. Uh, we could have used the help after he- he federalized them. Uh, it was the California Highway Patrol and the LAPD that actually had to protect the military, uh, because they had become the attractive nuisance for protests. Um, but he offered no help in that respect. Uh, the vast majority, I'll reca- I'll remind you, um, thousands and thousands of our National Guard... By the way, police officers, firefighters, teachers, um, that were pulled off the beat, uh, and their day jobs, uh, ended up in the armories doing literally nothing. Hundreds of millions of dollars of taxpayer money. They had nothing to do. And the few hundred that were assigned at any different time, again, had to be protected by local law enforcement. So this isn't... O- obviously, none of this has anything to do with public safety, quite the contrary. It's about power, dominance, and aggression, the only thing he understands. And the question is, does he have the legal right? And we completely reject that, and I say that because I think it's important to highlight for your audience. Um, we are not just saying that. We have asserted that, and we were in federal court, uh, two weeks ago doing oral arguments. We depose members of the Trump administration under the Posse Comitatus framework that the US military cannot be deployed for domestic law enforcement purposes, and Justice Breyer is about to adjudicate, have the first judgment, first opinion, uh, that will be published ever on the Posse Comitatus case that could have a real impact, um, on what Trump is doing all across the United States. And so we're- we're trying to assert ourselves, uh, in the courts, not just the court of public opinion, and push back against what he's doing. But I said this literally months ago that LA is a preview of things to come. Uh-

Kara Swisher 33:59 To come, right.

Gavin Newsom 33:59 ... DC is a preview of things to come, and every major city across this country.

Kara Swisher 34:03 What do you do if you're a- a gov... You- you can't keep them out, correct? Uh, you could- you couldn't get the troops into California.

Gavin Newsom 34:10 No, we just have the legal authority to at least fight it out in the courts, and we hope the rule of law and the constitutional provisions that have- we've enjoyed and frankly often taken for granted for 249 years, um, uh, ultimately will win the day. But yeah, you're right. I mean, he has the legal right to federalize troops. He doesn't have the legal right, however, uh, to militarize our seat for- s- streets for domestic law enforcement, and that is crystal clear under the Posse Comitatus Act, and those limits are very, very clear and- and- and it's a question of whether or not ultimately the United States Supreme Court will agree with that, and, uh- and that's an open-ended question, sadly.

Kara Swisher 34:51 How do... So what do they... C- c- can those mayors in Chicago, Baltimore, and New York keep them out?

Gavin Newsom 34:57 Uh, they have no-

Kara Swisher 34:58 Again, th-

Gavin Newsom 34:58 They- they can't legally-

Kara Swisher 35:00 They can't.

Gavin Newsom 35:01 ... unless the courts-

Kara Swisher 35:02 Right.

Gavin Newsom 35:02 ... intervene and the courts need to intervene or Congress needs to do their job. Obviously, we've already established that. But can I say this just on the topic?

Kara Swisher 35:10 Sure.

Gavin Newsom 35:11 Um, Democrats need to be careful about this. Um, you know, you're- you're in San Francisco and- and just a reminder, full disclosure, and this may offend some people. Two years ago, I deployed, uh, the California Highway Patrol and the National Guard under state authority in partnership with city leaders and state leaders-... and also engage the federal government, the FBI, with the Biden administration, in terms of federal law enforcement, state and local law enforcement actions to address some of the fentanyl and drug issues in San Francisco. We then did a similar model in Oakland, California, and we've now rolled that out in many different parts of the state. It is in stark contrast, obviously, to what Trump is doing to, he's doing it to people, not with any of us, but the issue of crime, quality of life, is something Democrats need to recognize that we need to reconcile and we need to be accountable for all of us. And this is not a, this is not a permission slip for the way Trump is doing things, quite the contrary. Um, but it is an acknowledgement that he's hitting on an issue that is an issue across this country and red states, eight of the top 10 murder states, red states. In red states with blue cities. Doesn't matter. It's not a political issue. It's about issues of crime and violence and quality of life that universally all Americans want us to address.

Kara Swisher 36:44 So how do you say, okay, one of the things that a lot of people are telling me is, is, uh, uh, a lot of people do agree on some of the things and, and they always follow it, but not like this. Right? Like, whatever Trump's doing, the immigration stuff, I'm concerned about it, but not like this. Not, this is not how to fix it. How do you message that? 'Cause a lot of the messaging is, as you just said, crime is h- heavier in Shreveport than it is in San Francisco, right? And it's true. But people don't feel that. Telling them it's 24, it's down 24%, it's down this, is not... you know, I was talking to someone years ago in San Francisco about the problems here, and it's not as bad as of course Fox depicted it-

Gavin Newsom 37:22 No.

Kara Swisher 37:22 ... which drove me crazy. I was like, "It isn't." But you also can't, and you can't meet it by saying murder is down because it's like, my car got broken into.

Gavin Newsom 37:30 You got it.

Kara Swisher 37:31 And even, even if it doesn't, it's not the same obviously, it is a, a way of life, right? It's a feeling of lack of safety. How do you message that without messaging, "We don't want these troops here to help us clean it up"?

Gavin Newsom 37:44 Well, I think it's beyond even messaging. You gotta do the work. I mean, that's why, you know, I hired an additional 1,000 CHP officers. It's why we've deployed all across the state, not just in San Francisco where we launched this two-plus years ago. It's why we changed a lot of the laws as it relates to organized retail theft. In fact, had one of the biggest take-downs of organized retail theft in California history recently just, in fact, recently, a couple of days ago, uh, related to Home Depots, uh, using some of the new tools and laws that we passed. Look, I think you have to, you have to be accountable to actually doing the work and then communicate that work, and not in a responsive way, uh, but in a proactive way. And I think we were slow to do that, to be candid with you, after, you know, there were a few, just a handful of people promoting Defund the Police. I certainly wasn't one of them, but Fox weaponized that, the grievance machine was out there, surround sound 24/7, and we were slow to react to that, and they'd shape-shifted that, and were sort of playing catch-up, even though a lot of mayors and governors have been very proactive o- on policing. And look, we have the second-ho- lowest homicides in, in, you know, recorded history in California. We're down 10.4% again from double-digit declines the prior year on crime, but to your point, we're not leading with that 'cause no one, no one cares about that if they feel differently. And so I think we have to own that, we have to flood the zone in terms of our alternative strategy and approach, and then we have to communicate them every single day, and again, that's where he's so damn effective, and there's an asymmetry-

Kara Swisher 39:14 Mm-hmm.

Gavin Newsom 39:14 ... to that 'cause he's the president of the damn United States-

Kara Swisher 39:17 Is, is it working-

Gavin Newsom 39:18 ... and that's our challenge.

Kara Swisher 39:18 ... these troop deployments? Do you think it's working for him?

Gavin Newsom 39:21 I don't, I don't think it's working. I know it's had unbelie- we, every single Tuesday in California, we announce, we call it t- and forgive the vernacular, we call it Take Down Tuesdays, and in transparent way, we've been updating the public on the arrests and going after stolen vehicles, back to car break-ins and issues related to quality of life, and keeping people aware of what's going on. But not... it's, it's hard because these things don't get attention like Trump's Truth Social gets attention. And so that's why I do agree with you, back to the pivot and the previous point, pivot figuratively and literally in this case with you, that we also have to pivot back to a much more, dare I say, muscular, uh, not from-

Kara Swisher 40:01 Muscular?

Gavin Newsom 40:01 I know, muscular, but not through-

Kara Swisher 40:04 Chest-y.

Gavin Newsom 40:04 ... not through a gender frame.

Kara Swisher 40:06 Uh-huh.

Gavin Newsom 40:06 Muscular approach to communication. A little more smash-mouth, dare I say, uh, in terms of our ability to get the message out of what we're doing.

Kara Swisher 40:16 Or talk very clearly. Someone like Zohran Mamdani is talking about costs, right? Or something th- that they have. How do you look at his communication skills? For example, 'cause New York is in the crosshairs here too if he wins, especially.

Gavin Newsom 40:27 Yeah, I mean, it, I-

Kara Swisher 40:28 Which it looks like he's going to.

Gavin Newsom 40:28 ... as I said, it sounds like Trump's been paying a lot of attention to him with his desire to socialize great American companies and continue to invest like he did with, uh, Intel and others. But beyond that, uh, no, I think it's unbelievably effective, his grassroots, his ability to utilize social media, meet people where they are literally and phys- uh, physically, meaning he's out in the streets, he's talking to real people, um, and he's been able to connect with folks in a very visceral way. And so there's, back to this notion success leaves clues, and there's a lot of, uh, successful, uh, campaigning-... um, ideas that he's advanced. The question is governing, and governing is a radically different thing than campaigning and communicating.

Kara Swisher 41:07 A- absolutely, but the hostility to him is quite high.

Gavin Newsom 41:09 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 41:09 Correct? I mean.

Gavin Newsom 41:10 Of course, of course because of some of his-

Kara Swisher 41:12 Why is that?

Gavin Newsom 41:12 Well, for obvious reasons, some of his views. And there's a lot of anxiety around those views, um, and they could be on issues, uh, related to, to domestic policy as it relates to, uh, you know, socializing, um, you know, grocery stores, et cetera.

Kara Swisher 41:26 Like-

Gavin Newsom 41:26 It could be our national policy.

Kara Swisher 41:27 ... Trump intel. In Trump intel, the comparison is very obvious that you just made.

Gavin Newsom 41:31 Yeah. No, I, I-

Kara Swisher 41:32 C- correct.

Gavin Newsom 41:33 And we need to make that point over and over and over. I mean, I remember, was- wasn't Jeff Bezos out there yelling and screaming that Biden doesn't understand, uh, you know, capitalism? I mean, this guy (laughs) has completely perverted capitalism, uh, Donald Trump. It's crony capitalism. It's, you know, whatever, you pay him off, give him a phone call. I mean, the- these illegal terrorists which we're also in court on. Um, all these things that are happening in this country, it's, it's just perverse that they could be shaping the Democratic Party in the context of the socialist brand, when in fact this guy is the leading nationalist and socialist of our time, Donald Trump.

Kara Swisher 42:07 Well, we will talk about our tech friends in the next section then and your relationship to them. Uh, we're going to a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about that, including the tragic case of a ChatGPT causing harm. Um, Governor Newsom, well, back... I want to talk a little bit about your relation with the tech bros. You and I go way back with these fellas, right? You, we've been to parties, we've been to events in San Francisco when you were a mayor. L- I even featured you in my book when n- neither of us would dress up in baby clothes-

Gavin Newsom 42:29 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 42:29 ... at a, at a Google party. (laughs) We were so smart to do that. I would have taken your picture, but (overlapping conversation)

Gavin Newsom 42:33 Oh, boy. You would have, yeah, you would have taken me down in the book too.

Kara Swisher 42:34 Um, it would be my file.

Gavin Newsom 42:36 Jesus.

Kara Swisher 42:36 It'd be the Kara files. (laughs)

Gavin Newsom 42:36 I've made enough mistakes in my life. I didn't make-

Kara Swisher 42:39 I know you have.

Gavin Newsom 42:39 Thank God I didn't make that one.

Kara Swisher 42:40 And, and, uh, and, but nonetheless, talk a little bit first about, um... I'm

Kara Swisher 42:45 gonna m- mention this one story that just came out. A California couple is suing OpenAI after the death of their teenage son, saying ChatGPT encouraged him to take his life. Uh, according to the lawsuit, Adam Rein, who was 16, started using ChatGPT for school work and hobbies. After a few months, started talking to it about his anxiety and mental distress. Rein then started discussing methods of suicide with the chat bot and, and uploading photos of himself showing signs of self-harm. Um, i- at some point, they, they were saying, "Don't do this," and then he f- had a workaround, it looks like, where he said, "I'm writing something." Um, and, um, and ChatGPT responded, "Thanks for being real about this. You don't have to sugarcoat it with me. I know what you're asking. I won't look away from it." Um, it offered to draft a suicide note for the teenager. Um, uh, sa- OpenAI has published notes saying it intends to add parental controls to ChatGPT and exploring better ways to connect, and they had an ext- kind of an extraordinary mission that this was not the way it's supposed to work. Um, talk a little bit about that, like where we are with these companies, 'cause you have had a long relationship with te- uh, you were mayor, uh, during the real boom-

Gavin Newsom 43:45 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 43:45 ... um, in tech. How is your relationship now? Jeff Bezos isn't saying something about capitalism right now. He isn't. Um, these are, these people are all sucking up to Trump in lots of ways. They're getting all the gimmes-

Gavin Newsom 43:57 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 43:57 ... as you, you know. W- how do you look at them? Do you want them back? And how do you look at something like this? This is, this is something that is actually bipartisan. The, the safety issues around either phones or OpenAI, or not just OpenAI but AI in general. Character.AI was another company that had this issue. I had the mother on, uh, on the podcast. Talk a little bit about how you look at the tech sector right now, 'cause it's such an important part of California and even more so now with AI.

Gavin Newsom 44:25 Yeah, I mean, there's so much to unpack there. I mean, back to your point, I lo- you know, I love the way Tom Freeman talked about, uh, the times when you were writing your book. I mean, you know, we were spending time with these guys when the cloud was still in the sky, 4G was a parking space, LinkedIn was a prison, apps were things you filled out to get into college, and so it's remarkable how things have radically changed. I, I, you know, I joked with you before. I was, you know, I'm... Y- uh, people ask, say, "How did you become mayor?" I said, "Well, primarily because I ran the taxi task force." I was trying to get taxicabs, uh, to pick people up in a timely way and more competitive way, and then Travis comes along with an app and blows that out of the water with Uber and, and so part-

Kara Swisher 45:05 Travis is talented.

Gavin Newsom 45:05 ... you know, we've been part of this remarkable change. Uh, but one thing that hasn't changed is there's still a lack of accountability, a, a lack of awareness and, uh, around culpability and responsibility. And so y- your question frames that. You know, what's my relationship with that? It's, yeah, personal, it's professional, as a policymaker, as a former mayor, as, as governor, and I'm prou- look, California leads in innovation. We also lead in regulation. But, but our critics are, are not wrong when they say it's some light-touch regulation. I did 19 AI bills last year, more than most other states. We've been on the leading cutting edge, uh, of regulation in social media. We've lost more major lawsuits than we've won. Uh, we were just deposed a few weeks ago, uh, with another major lawsuit as it relates to child privacy issues. We created a privacy council in the state, independent of the state itself, uh, meaning it was voted on by the people, uh, and we're trying right now to address the issue of frontier models, um, and address, uh, a response to a bill that I thought over-regulated last year, um, a bill by, uh, uh, common, uh, numeric of 1047, where I got an independent group, not politicians but experts, Fei-Fei Li and others, the godmother of AI, academics from Stanford, Berkeley and elsewhere, uh, to come up with a report to guide us on a legislative path this year, which we're working on in real time. So, we're trying to find that balance. We're trying to be accountable. At the same time, we're trying to maintain our entrepreneurial and innovative ecosystem and not over-regulate and stifle that at the same time.

Kara Swisher 46:43 But here they are. They've turned on you all. They, I mean, they put... I, I would agree, the administration was far too, uh, censorious to them i- in some ways. That said, they took tail and ran for, for the, for the Trump campaign. How do you get that back and, and without seeming like a, mm, you know, put... letting them do whatever they want, certainly?

Gavin Newsom 47:02 Well, I mean, I-You, you know all these folks. I know them personally as well and we have private conversations, either directly or indirectly, and, um, obviously we battle it out in court and, uh, and battle it out with legislation, uh, and we're on different sides of, of many of these issues. But look, bottom line, it's fear and greed. Just is. It's both/and. Fear and greed. And, and to your point about Biden, it's interesting. You know, we, we did the first AI executive order, did one of the first crypto executive orders and then did, did the first AI executive order. But we did it hand-in-glove with the Biden Administration. That was thrown out immediately, and then these guys wanted to preempt any statewide legislation for 10 years. So, you know, this... there's no moral equivi- if there's any hope for a real regulatory framework, it's gonna be the Democratic Party, um, trying to, to, to find that, that, that, that sweet spot, again, around innovation, entrepreneurial-ism, truth, and trust, and not over-regulating, at the same time being accountable to the tragic example that you just advanced. I got four kids, so that hits me very differently like it does for you as a mother, um, with what's going on with social media. And so, that's, that's... this is a constant iteration. I've over two dozen bills that we're working on right now to substantively, Cara, answer your question, as it relates to our responsibility and relationship to this moment.

Kara Swisher 48:24 What about your relationship with the tech industry? You, you know, I w- I would say you were relatively friendly. So was Kamala Harris.

Gavin Newsom 48:30 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 48:30 So, I mean, any California politician has to have relationships within the tech industry.

Gavin Newsom 48:35 Well, I thought, I thought we were... I, I was very frustrated, to be candid with you, very privately and, and, you know, uh, around the unwillingness to gauge and, you know, the whole crypto blockchain space. I, I, I felt they turned their back a little bit, and I thought paid a huge political price for that.

Kara Swisher 48:51 Absolutely. Share ground.

Gavin Newsom 48:51 A lot of organizations coming together, and we... So we got work to do to pull that back, number one. And, and on the issue, look, I... it was a classic pendulum swing for some that thought they over-corrected during COVID, uh, and there was concern around censorship and sort of big tech, Big Brother, in relationship to, to, to big government. And now, the light touch, uh, that pendulum's back on the other direction. And so I, I think trying to find that back and, and look, it's... you're right, it... you know, these personal relationships have been challenged because you, you see all these guys that you know and worked with, uh, and you knew them before, you know, back in the day when.

Kara Swisher 49:30 Right.

Gavin Newsom 49:30 And there they are all standing up there going like this to the dear leader, uh, during the inaugural.

Kara Swisher 49:36 Yeah, I, I think the Golden Statute Tim Cook thing was my, like, "Oh, good God."

Gavin Newsom 49:40 It... not easy. I mean look, uh, uh, Intel giving up 10% of its co... what the hell's going on? NVIDIA-

Kara Swisher 49:46 Right.

Gavin Newsom 49:46 ... saying 15% tithing, uh, to... you know, a... so a lot of California companies in that mix, um, and, uh, breaks my heart. And, uh, and so again, back to fear and just, you know, I guess they would say-

Kara Swisher 50:01 Shareholding.

Gavin Newsom 50:01 ... their fiduciary responsibilities, others would suggest greed.

Kara Swisher 50:04 Right. What would be your message to tech, say if you were running for something like president?

Gavin Newsom 50:09 I... look, I think two things. Um, they matter, and we should care because they're shape-shifting this economy, they're shape-shifting the future. So we have to care because they do matter, uh, and it's foundational with 32 of the top 50 AI companies. By the way, that's an old stat, I think it's even more-

Kara Swisher 50:27 Oh yeah, it is.

Gavin Newsom 50:27 ... uh, market share. Right?

Kara Swisher 50:28 They're all here.

Gavin Newsom 50:29 They're all here. It's-

Kara Swisher 50:30 They're all moving back from Florida and Texas.

Gavin Newsom 50:32 Yeah, eat your heart out.

Kara Swisher 50:33 It's just-

Gavin Newsom 50:33 Sorry, Ron and-

Kara Swisher 50:33 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 50:34 ... you know, and, uh, Greg, uh-

Kara Swisher 50:36 Greg.

Gavin Newsom 50:36 ... you know-

Kara Swisher 50:37 Greg is his name.

Gavin Newsom 50:37 ... grass is not always greener. But anyway, no, they're m- look, it's... so we have a unique responsibility, to your point, but we also have a unique ecosystem that defines the best of... you know, we're the tent pole of the US economy for a reason. Um, and it's, it's that ecosystem that's built up for decades, and of course Trump's trying to completely wreck that as it relates to institutions of higher learning, research and development, NIH, NSF grants. Um, obviously the, the ho-... $1 billion extortion payment that he wants from UCLA. We've watched the capitulation of these institutions that allegedly cultivate independent thought, uh, selling their souls, and Harvard appears to be the next one. Obviously Columbia. Um, I know Brown is lauded for their, uh, their, their $50 million contribution in tithing, uh, to the, the, the Trump whims and... but it's, uh, it's pretty, pretty alarming what this guy's doing to the economy and to the ecosystem. And the fact that tech is still indulging them as they're watching the reason that they exist as an industry and persist in terms of being the biggest beneficiaries of the research and development, the biggest beneficiaries of the NIH, the biggest beneficiaries of the NSF, uh, is remarkable to me. And so in that relationship, I remind them of this, try to highlight this, try to maintain a cordial relationship. Uh, but at the same time doesn't mean we're backing away from these lawsuits and-

Kara Swisher 52:04 We do

Narrator 52:04 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 52:04 ... mean we're backing away from passing laws.

Kara Swisher 52:06 Okay. Um, we're gonna move on last part, uh, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions with Governor Newsom. Okay

Kara Swisher 52:13 Governor, uh, it's time for predictions. First, I'd like to make a specific prediction. Uh, New York Mayor, uh, Eric Adams was mocking Zoran Mandani last week for his bench pressing prowess. Mandani seemed to be struggling in a viral video, whatever. Um, if you were bench pressing contests against Scott Galloway, who would you predict wins?

Gavin Newsom 52:31 Oh, man, I'd... I've seen that guy with... No.

Kara Swisher 52:34 Scott.

Gavin Newsom 52:34 I'm not... You think I'm naïve? Galloway would run away. That guy... and by the way-

Kara Swisher 52:39 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 52:39 ... he, he may be out there training this last month. You don't even know what he's been up to. You think you know what-

Kara Swisher 52:43 Yes, that's true.

Gavin Newsom 52:44 ... he's up to.

Kara Swisher 52:44 Don't get under a bench press. If you're running for president, don't do it, 'cause look how peak

Narrator 52:48 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 52:49 ... Peg Hegseth looked trying to do one single pull-up.

Gavin Newsom 52:51 It was-

Kara Swisher 52:51 I can do two.

Gavin Newsom 52:52 (laughs) .

Kara Swisher 52:52 Just so you... peak. That was sad.I hate mocking people's physical things, but you kinda have to since he kind of put it up and you kinda have to swing at that one, I guess.

Gavin Newsom 53:01 You gotta swing at that one. But no, yeah, so I, I'm, I'm cautious in that respect. Then again, I do like all the untouched memes of me on the back of bears.

Kara Swisher 53:08 Yes, I know. I'm sure you do.

Gavin Newsom 53:10 No, I'm just saying.

Kara Swisher 53:10 But let me hear for your prediction. Any predi- any other predictions you'd like to share?

Gavin Newsom 53:13 No. I mean, I, you know, I, I, I'm, you know, I'm, my prediction's in the, you know, sort of meme market. I, by the way, I spent an hour and a half with Trump in, uh, in the Oval Office a few months ago. It was, uh, back when we were working together, um, if there's such a thing. And, uh, he starts telling me, he goes, he didn't e- uh, he didn't even realize. He goes, you know, he goes, "Hey, you know, Gavin did this, um, this, uh, coin." He goes, "You know, it's not even a coin. It's not even a coin." I said, "That's amazing." He goes, he goes... And then he went on to, you know, say how much money he just made. He got a check from, uh, you know, that was just sent over. And then he mentioned Melania and, um, the whole thing.

Kara Swisher 53:48 Melania coin.

Gavin Newsom 53:49 Uh, and her coin and her meme coin. So anyway, my, my prediction is, you know, I just put this on the prediction market, when we put out the, the Trump corruption coin, um, I, I think it's gonna outperform, uh, Trump's, uh, Trump's coin. So that's my prediction. That's my prediction.

Kara Swisher 54:02 All right. Okay. Well, I'm very excited. What's the picture on it? You, right?

Gavin Newsom 54:06 No, it's not me. I'm not, n-

Kara Swisher 54:08 Your fantastic hair.

Gavin Newsom 54:08 It's Trump corruption. I'm not putting, I was gonna do a smelt coin, but no one seemed-

Kara Swisher 54:12 Uh-huh.

Gavin Newsom 54:12 ... to fully understand that, uh, which I thought was a much more insightful and perhaps-

Kara Swisher 54:17 Okay.

Gavin Newsom 54:18 ... more, it could be more success- I still may do one. I don't know. After the perfume. I don't know about what, you know, perfect sense.

Kara Swisher 54:24 Perfume?

Gavin Newsom 54:24 But we'll see.

Kara Swisher 54:24 What would be the name of your perfume?

Gavin Newsom 54:26 I don't know. I have to, I have to, we, maybe we can crowdsource it, sort of little-

Kara Swisher 54:30 Stinky.

Gavin Newsom 54:30 ... old school 2000 social media here. A little crowdsourced.

Kara Swisher 54:33 Anyway, um, I really appreciate this, uh, Governor Newsom. You, I, I really do. I like our back and forth because I think one of the things that's helpful is when people actually can debate. Um, and the aggression is just what's needed in my opinion.

Gavin Newsom 54:46 Yeah, well, it's, uh...

Kara Swisher 54:47 I'm giving you a compliment.

Gavin Newsom 54:48 You're the best of-

Kara Swisher 54:50 That won't last.

Gavin Newsom 54:50 ... of a- you're a, as, as, uh, as they say in San Francisco where you're back home, uh, as we described the Grateful Dead and you described Jerry Garcia, only a former mayor of California or San Francisco can say this, you said, he described in many ways you as Bill Graham was described in the Grateful Dead. You don't want to be the best of the best. You want to be the only one that does what you do and that is you.

Kara Swisher 55:15 Oh my God. You're kissing up to me.

Gavin Newsom 55:17 I'm just saying.

Kara Swisher 55:17 All I want to do is you win the presidency, I'm s- come, as I told you before, I'm coming to the Lincoln Bedroom so get fucking ready.

Gavin Newsom 55:23 Yeah, and by the way, he's apparently remodeled the Lincoln Bedroom just like he's remodeling the ballroom.

Kara Swisher 55:28 Oh, no.

Gavin Newsom 55:29 And don't think you... By the way, who spends hundreds of millions of dollars remodeling a home?

Kara Swisher 55:33 He's not leaving.

Gavin Newsom 55:34 Thank you. Thank you.

Kara Swisher 55:36 Yeah.

Gavin Newsom 55:36 Wake up.

Kara Swisher 55:36 Because you're running for president, right? I have to get to the Lincoln Bedroom.

Gavin Newsom 55:40 Lincoln Bed- You, I mean, you're... (laughs)

Kara Swisher 55:42 Just say yes.

Gavin Newsom 55:43 You have some other suitors. I'm well aware. I'm well aware.

Kara Swisher 55:46 (laughs) Okay. In any case, that handsome Wes Moore.

Gavin Newsom 55:49 (laughs)

Kara Swisher 55:49 Anyway, uh, we, we, we want-

Gavin Newsom 55:51 He is.

Kara Swisher 55:52 We want, there can be two handsome people.

Gavin Newsom 55:54 No, there's many.

Kara Swisher 55:54 Um, we want to i- uh, they want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Okay, that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel which is growing by leaps and bounds. We'll be back next week with the triumphant return of Scott Galloway. Governor Newsom, you kept it up. You kept up the, the, the Scott Galloway banner and I truly appreciate it.

Gavin Newsom 56:18 He needs to come back shirtless. I want to see. I'm, I'm, I think the guy-

Kara Swisher 56:22 No, don't say that.

Gavin Newsom 56:22 Scott. Yes.

Kara Swisher 56:23 Don't say that.

Gavin Newsom 56:24 I want to see it.

Kara Swisher 56:24 He's going to take his shirt off.

Gavin Newsom 56:26 I think he's going to.

Kara Swisher 56:26 He does it all the time.

Gavin Newsom 56:27 Scott.

Kara Swisher 56:28 I literally...

Gavin Newsom 56:28 I'm looking forward to seeing it. I want to see the pecs.

Kara Swisher 56:30 (laughs) I just... That's creepy.

Gavin Newsom 56:33 It is kind of creepy.

Kara Swisher 56:34 That's just creepy. Let me just-

Gavin Newsom 56:35 But he's, that guy is in shape.

Kara Swisher 56:35 I am the only listener that has to look at men's chests all the time.

Gavin Newsom 56:38 By the way-

Kara Swisher 56:38 Do you understand?

Gavin Newsom 56:39 ... he's-

Kara Swisher 56:40 This is why I signed up.

Gavin Newsom 56:40 He is-

Kara Swisher 56:41 I'm just being nice.

Gavin Newsom 56:42 He is, uh, he is a unique, uh, charac- uh, you should... Well, anyway, I've, I've said enough on this topic.

Kara Swisher 56:49 Tell me. What, what did you say?

Gavin Newsom 56:50 I'm already in trouble. Uh.

Kara Swisher 56:50 I should marry him?

Gavin Newsom 56:51 No, I didn't say that. You guys have already talked about your love for each other. We've already described...

Kara Swisher 56:55 Which is good.

Gavin Newsom 56:55 That's been well, well discussed on this podcast.

Kara Swisher 56:59 Yes, but you know what? I like to step out on him now and then.

Gavin Newsom 57:01 (laughs) Oh, Jesus.

Kara Swisher 57:01 Anyway, this has been a great step out.

Gavin Newsom 57:03 Okay.

Kara Swisher 57:03 Uh, I will read us out. Thank you again, Governor Newsom. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin and Kevin Oliver. Ernie Enrdod engineered this episode. Jim Mackill edited the video. Nishant Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. I am so looking forward to Gavin perfume.

Gavin Newsom 57:33 (laughs) Take care.