Will Meta Pay the Price for 'Buy or Bury' Strategy at Antitrust Trial? | Pivot

Scott Galloway 0:00 No one has ever described me as openly heterosexual. No one has ever said, "Openly heterosexual podcaster."

Kara Swisher 0:08 (instrumental music) Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher.

Scott Galloway 0:17 And I'm Scott Galloway.

Kara Swisher 0:19 Where are you, Scott? Are you just, you just, uh, you, you're somewhere strange with the wallpaper situation going on.

Scott Galloway 0:24 I am at the Colony Hotel in Palm Beach, where I just returned from getting, from the Department of Motor Vehicles at Palm Beach Gardens, where my son is now a licensed driver.

Kara Swisher 0:37 How exciting. That's great. I thought you were at Mar-a-Lago or something like that.

Scott Galloway 0:41 No, uh, it, uh-

Kara Swisher 0:43 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 0:43 ... I ran into my friend, Mehmet Oz, yesterday, and he came over-

Kara Swisher 0:47 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 0:47 ... and he introduced me to RFK Jr. They're hanging out.

Kara Swisher 0:49 Oh, no.

Scott Galloway 0:50 And he gave me the cold shoulder. I think it's because I refused-

Kara Swisher 0:54 Good.

Scott Galloway 0:54 ... to have him on my pod. I don't know.

Kara Swisher 0:55 Well, good idea.

Scott Galloway 0:55 He was definitely, like, cold to me.

Kara Swisher 0:57 Who? R- RFK?

Scott Galloway 0:59 RFK? No, Mehmet and I are friends.

Kara Swisher 1:01 Okay.

Scott Galloway 1:01 Uh, RFK, yeah, was su- was noticeably cold to me. He's very handsome though. I did notice that.

Kara Swisher 1:06 'Cause he's a crank. 'Cause he's a crank. The la- Did you see the latest? He's putting... I don't even wanna go into it. That-

Scott Galloway 1:12 Four, four months until autism is solved, is that what he's saying?

Kara Swisher 1:15 Not, not just that. All of the stuff. He's taking s- information off. He's saying vaccines aren't necessarily a good thing on the... I, just he's such a fucking disaster. These people are setting themself up for a lot of pain years from now. Um, it's just the, the murders he is committing right now, as far as I'm concerned.

Scott Galloway 1:33 In addition to the additional death, disease, and disability across our populous, it's made traffic much worse for me. That's what I'm really upset about.

Kara Swisher 1:40 Oh, okay. All right.

Scott Galloway 1:41 It's-

Kara Swisher 1:41 Okay. All right. Okay. And-

Scott Galloway 1:42 The traffic is awful down there. But anyways, I'm at the Colony Hotel, which I affectionately call-

Kara Swisher 1:46 R-

Scott Galloway 1:46 ... I think there's a whole cadre or cohort of what I call 64 hotels and service establishments. And that is because of the unprecedented prosperity that we've started to believe is the normal operating system in America, and a series of fiscal and monetary policies that literally, and tax policies cram all this prosperity in the top 1%, and the fact there's a lag time. You can't build a four or five-star hotel in a year. It takes 10 years. These places are over capacity. And so I describe them as 64, as in that is six-star prices with four-star service.

Kara Swisher 2:21 Oh, okay.

Scott Galloway 2:21 And these places are so expensive, and I don't mind paying a lot of money if you get great service. And you do get great service at the Beverly's Hotel or, I don't know, at the Langham in London. I mean, there's just a, a ton of great hotels with great service. This is not one of them.

Kara Swisher 2:37 This is not one of them.

Scott Galloway 2:37 This is not one of them.

Kara Swisher 2:38 All right, Colony Hotel, with RFK there. That's all I need to know. I'm not going there.

Scott Galloway 2:41 No, RFK is not here. I don't wanna dispi-

Kara Swisher 2:43 No? Whatever then.

Scott Galloway 2:43 I don't wanna disparage. It's a beauti- it's a beautiful hotel in Palm Beach-

Kara Swisher 2:46 All right.

Scott Galloway 2:46 By the way, it's 74 and sunny. God, it's so nice here.

Kara Swisher 2:48 Oh, that's good. (laughs) Good for you. It's very nice here in Washington too. Anyway, we've got a lot to get to today. There's also a lot of tech stuff going on, including Meta's big antitrust trial and, of course, women in space. I, t-... We'll get to that.

Kara Swisher 3:02 Um, but first, let's, let's get with, to tariffs, because first, uh, President Trump now says nobody is getting off the hook on tariffs despite granting exemptions for smartphones, computers, and other electronics late Friday, which is a lie, apparently. Trump posted on Truth Social on Sunday that products are just moving to a different tariff bucket. He also says that semiconductor tariffs are coming. But tariff exemptions, or whatever Trump wants to call them, are good news for Apple, NVIDIA, and Dell, at least for the time being. Of course, Scott predicted Apple's reprieve on our Friday episode. Let's listen.

Scott Galloway 3:33 You wanna i- enrage a cult? Take iPhones to 3,500 bucks. And then you're gonna see the largest and most valuable company in history, an American company, lose the value of the German GDP over the course of a year. You're gonna take, push back people's retirements. Apple's gonna have to withdraw all sorts of growth plans. And you wanna piss off every, every, uh, Millennial and Gen X in the world? Take their iPhones to 3,500 bucks. I- Apple is not gonna have any tariffs here.

Kara Swisher 4:02 So, uh, i- in the interim, for that, you are absolutely correct. Very good. But what was, um-

Scott Galloway 4:06 A- and then I was not correct, right? (laughs)

Kara Swisher 4:08 ... what is... Yes, I know. So what is the deal? 'Cause Lutnick started it. Everyone thought Lutnick was off-script, but then Trump, uh, underscored it and added more confusion to something that was already confusing and seems very oligarchic and sudden and shifting. Um, they were, uh, a- Apple was trying very hard to deal with this. They're airlifting 600 tons of iPhones from India last week to reportedly beat the tariffs. Uh, this flip-flopping is really bad. Um, Caroline, um, Levitt. And of course, it goes against what they were saying, "We're gonna make things in the US." Caroline Levitt, Tracy Flick said over the weekend that Trump is still committed to seeing more products and components made in the US. She noted Trump's direction, tech companies are hustling to onshore their manufacture in the United States as soon as possible. This is... Caroline, sit down, you 27-year-old i- ignoramus. But, um, w- what do you, what do you, uh, think about this flippity-floppity-flippity-flop?

Scott Galloway 5:02 Brand US has become toxic uncertainty. There's, um, there are several organizations, including Pew and Ipsos that track an uncertainty index, and that index has reached its highest level since the '80s. The, uh, level of uncertainty in the US right now is greater than COVID. Think about that. And I'm... By the way, I'm gonna give you some anecdotes. I'm not gonna name the people because they didn't wanna be named. But what I would tell our listeners is that unlock... uh, is that unlike the Trump Administration, my anecdotes are true. I'm not lying.

Kara Swisher 5:34 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 5:35 Over the weekend, I talked to several CEOs. One is a CEO of a huge catalog and retail company that does a lot of housewares. This person has, he thinks, about $60 million in outdoor furniture waiting to hit the stores for summer, uh, that are on ships en route from China. All of a sudden, he has to figure out a way to get to the Port of Long Beach when they arrive and write a check for $85 million that he wasn't expecting to write.... and he has to call his CFO, and this is a, this is a publicly traded multi-billion dollar company. He's like, "I, I, I can't just like find 85 million bucks." And then-

Kara Swisher 6:18 Now the 85 is for what? To pay for the things now, or what is the 85 for?

Scott Galloway 6:22 Well this is... That's a correct question, because the way tariffs work is the importer, the catalog, the retailer company taking delivery of outdoor furniture from China, if these products, quote unquote, cost 60 million, you have to... With 145% tariff, you have to... The person receiving the items, the retailer in the US has to pay $85 million to the US government in the form of a tariff payment. So, this individual has to come up with $85 million to get the shit off the boat. In addition-

Kara Swisher 6:57 Right.

Scott Galloway 6:57 ... in addition-

Kara Swisher 6:57 Unless they're given a reprieve.

Scott Galloway 6:59 (laughs) But he can't, he, he can't just let shit sit on a boat. And right now, he has to plan for what the government is saying. In addition, he's gotta find hundreds, if not thousands of people to go down to the port, and when the stuff comes off the boat, re-tag and re-price everything, 'cause now the majority of retailers that order their stuff out of China have it tagged and priced and attached to the actual physical item in China.

Kara Swisher 7:26 And wrapped, right? And whatever, if there happen to be clothing or something like that.

Scott Galloway 7:30 Whatever it is. And, and so in addition, he's like, "Okay, so I have stopped all shipments from China. I've told them, 'Stop producing,' which is gonna take my inventory levels way down, and the only way I'm gonna get anywhere back to even is if I raise prices, which I'm gonna have to do. In addition to more expensive prices, i.e. inflation, my earnings call is gonna be a shit show when I have to explain that, 'Oh yeah, I wasn't expecting to pay an $85 million unexpected, straight from the bottom line payment for tariffs that didn't exist seven days before.'"

Kara Swisher 8:10 Right.

Scott Galloway 8:10 And he has to go into his office, and s- and the CFO goes, "All right. If we've gotta go borrow $85 million against the line, we can do it, but if every retailer is hitting their line, the interest costs"-

Kara Swisher 8:22 Correct.

Scott Galloway 8:22 "... are gonna go up." And this is how, what played out last week, and why this guy blinked yet again.

Kara Swisher 8:29 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 8:30 The president has access to more information than any individual in history. Between our security apparatus, the brightest people in the world, a ton of data that's digested, distilled for him. He is the helm of the bob sled. He technically has more insight into what is going on in the world than any individual. And I'm sure two pieces of data were presented to him in fairly stark terms. Consumer confidence is plummeting, uncertainty is skyrocketing, which all adds up to a decline in spending and hiring, and insecurity which has taken the economy down. Now traditionally when an economy goes down, people don't wanna borrow money, people don't wanna invest, so interest rates come down, and that makes people more confident in sort of a self-healing mechanism. In this instance, we have a reduction in consumer spending and the economy slowing down, but the 10-year spiked 50 points. So, you have everything getting more expensive as the economy slows down. That's called stagflation, which is a bridge to a depression. The 10-year went up 50 bps in five days. And let's, let's bring that down to a number.

Kara Swisher 9:40 Okay. All right.

Scott Galloway 9:41 We have a $34 trillion deficit, meaning every basis point increase in the cost of the 10-year, if it goes from 4% to 4.1%, it's another three and a half billion dollars in interest payments we have to make on our national debt. I'm not even talking about the incremental cost to consumers of their student loans, their mortgages, and their credit cards. I'm just talking about the interest on the debt we have to pay. So when it spikes 50 basis points, right, on three and a half billion dollars per basis point in incremental interest expense, all of a sudden, in a few days, America has to come up with another $175 billion in interest payments to foreign creditors. Our entire Veterans Affairs budget is 300 billion. So, they have figured out a way to reduce the economy, send the economy into what looks like a low grade coma while interest rates are going up. This is-

Kara Swisher 10:39 Right, right.

Scott Galloway 10:39 ... the worst of all worlds.

Kara Swisher 10:40 And they're not getting... And, and the 85 billion, million dollars this guy has to pay is going to the government, but it's now gonna be sucked up in interest rate payments. There's, it, it's just like, so, we're gonna lose so much money every which way you lose. So, there's... H- how companies perceive is impossible at this point. What do you do? What do you... You just stop payments. That's what you stop doing, and then you lay people off, and then you hunker down until this lunatic is either... He loses at the midterm and he gets investigated out the yin yang, which he should be, honestly. Um, or, and then he's, you know, he's rendered, it's rendered impossible for him to do anything. That said, his lawlessness continues. He's defying the Supreme Court on immigration. He's defying the, he's defying everybody on every single thing. And also, by the way, he doesn't wei- weigh 224 pounds. He weighs like, at least 250 pounds. Anyway, that was just his thing. Um, what do... Let's talk China then, because Pre-

Kara Swisher 11:34 this is an opportunity, as we've talked about with President Xi. Uh, he currently is visiting Vietnam and other countries in Southeast Asia, presenting China as a reliable ally and trading partner. China also expanded exports on a wide range of critical minerals and magnets. Uh, China's holding steady here, and, and, and they are willing to endure pain, but they're also doing the correct thing, which is to visit partners and show themselves to be reliable partners. What will Trump do next? 'Cause I see him more and... This, this, this press conference in the Oval Office, he's defying the Supreme Court, he's defying the Fed, he's defying every, anyone he can defy, a- and when he makes a good decision, he defies his good decisions. So, what, what do companies do, and how do you look at China's role here? Because I think they're benefiting enormously from his idiocy. I don't know what else to call it. Stupidity.

Scott Galloway 12:27 ... uh, uh, so I never miss a chance to boast. The-

Kara Swisher 12:30 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 12:31 ... the CEO of one of the most iconic German automobile manufacturers-

Kara Swisher 12:35 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 12:35 ... reached out and said, "We'd love to come, we'd love to have, host you, and come, come have you speak to the management team and the board." And I said, and I was trying to arrange dates. And then he called me and he said, "Can I ask you something?" I said, "Of course." He goes, "What would you do if you were us, given what's going on in the US?" And Kara, as a guy who is always willing to run other people's lives and tell them-

Kara Swisher 12:54 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 12:54 ... what they should do, I'm like, "I have no fucking idea."

Kara Swisher 12:57 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 12:57 I have no idea-

Kara Swisher 12:59 No idea.

Scott Galloway 13:01 ... what to do here, other than, and I hate to say this 'cause I love America, other than figure out, um, a series of partners that are more reliable, and I said, "Oh, we're doing that." And going to that notion around Ch- let's talk about China now. China since COVID, or since 2019, has reduced its percentage of its total exports to the US from 24 to 17%. We have reduced ours by 4%, so we're both diversifying away from each other. They have diversified at nearly double the clip we have. The basic premise is that we can hurt them more than they can hurt us, so they will cry uncle. So, let's, let's assume we could hurt them more than they could hurt us. That is a pretty shaky thesis, because while the administration wants you to believe that we're the only customer at the country club and they have to be nice to us, the number one trading partner with China is the Association of Southeast Asian Nations, ASEAN, at one trillion. Who's number two? The EU, at 900 billion. We're number three. So yeah, we have a lot of power, but if they wanted to, and you wanna talk about restraint, if they (laughs) wanted to go into the market and take the 10-year from 450 to 550 and create inflation while the economy is going down, they could do that. But what they realize is that if they really hurt and kneecap their thir- third-biggest customer, it would be bad for them as well. They are not stupid. In addition, let's discount all of that, and let's take the administration at its word that, Howard Lutnick, that we're the biggest consumer and they would be fucked without us, China has its own troubles. Here's the issue or the piece of calculus they are missing. When Americans find, when they're watching the Logan Paul/Mike Tyson fight, and it starts, the bandwidth slows down, they go fucking ape shit, and they call-

Kara Swisher 14:56 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 14:56 ... their cable company. The-

Kara Swisher 14:57 I just did that today. (laughs)

Scott Galloway 14:59 When you talk about, uh, women are born with a much higher tolerance for pain because they have to endure childbirth. Men have much lower tolerance of pain. We're the man in this relationship. China starves tens of millions of people when they think it's good long term for the country. D- do you realize the pain threshold of America relative to-

Kara Swisher 15:23 Zero.

Scott Galloway 15:23 ... China?

Kara Swisher 15:24 Zero.

Scott Galloway 15:24 And we think we're gonna (laughs) strong-arm them-

Kara Swisher 15:27 Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 15:28 ... into doing a decision they w- don't wanna do?

Kara Swisher 15:30 It's nuts. This is just absolutely nuts. You d- Bowen Yang did a very funny thing on SNL, this idea. They are, they are made for pain, and we are not made for pain.

Narrator 15:39 But wait, I'm just wondering which side is more willing to endure hardship for the glory of their nation?

15:46 (laughs)

15:47 The one that's been around for thousands of years, or the one that's sending Katy Perry to space?

15:52 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 15:53 Look at us in the '70s, when we had a much higher tolerance for pain, when we didn't have Netflix and shows on demand and couldn't get a pack of gum delivered to us within 15 minutes. We left Vietnam after we had, we had decided we can't take any more and when we had lost 58,000 servicemen. At that point, the Vietcong in North Vietnam, they had lost a million people, and we cried uncle.

Kara Swisher 16:18 Right.

Scott Galloway 16:19 To think that, (laughs) I mean-

Kara Swisher 16:21 Yep.

Scott Galloway 16:21 ... the calculus here is just so incredibly ignorant. In addit-

Kara Swisher 16:27 The defiance. The, the, the, the, the performative defiance of, on everything, like there's not anywhere they're not losing and being performatively defiant, and then dragging people who were not like this, like Marco Rubio, into this performative defiance. That's what I would call it. And it's just, it's like, it's like Saul, my son, this, you know, "I'm not going to," and, you know, he- he does this thing where he does his arms. You ever, you know, when you see a toddler? Like, "I'm not gonna do anything." And that's what it feels like. I feel like I'm dealing with like a three-year-old, or, or something like that.

Scott Galloway 17:01 Uh, first off, i- i- it's corruption all, all over the place, because okay, you give me a million bucks, you're the cult of iOS, uh, just kidding, the t- the tariffs are up. Oh, wait, back they're not. 98% of the companies in America who'd, are dependent upon exports for their wellbeing are small and medium-sized business. Let, another CEO I spoke to this weekend, a friend of mine from my fraternity at college-

Kara Swisher 17:25 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 17:25 ... he has a specialty products company. You know when you go to a conference and all the cups, the fleeces, the banners, the signages?

Kara Swisher 17:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I have a lot. I'm wearing one right now.

Scott Galloway 17:33 There you go, okay? That's a big business. He has a family-run business that he's worked at for 30 years, since we got out of college, he's built probably a $10 or $12 million business, 130 employees, has put three kids through college, lived a really nice life, right? Slowly but surely over the last 30 years, everything's gone to China. About 80% of his products are produced out of China. He also has to go down to the, to the, to the port and sign a check for a couple million bucks, which he doesn't have, to get the shit off the boat. He's told China to stop shipping everything, and he doesn't have time to figure out new routing, r- new routing relationships. He's basically said, "Scott, this is COVID times ten. I'm not gonna get any relief, I don't know when this is coming to an end, and literally my business has come to a halt."

Kara Swisher 18:25 Right.

Scott Galloway 18:26 At campuses, and I know this firsthand, some of the biggest organizations, companies, recruiters have said the following, "We're putting a pause on interviews and hiring."... and a pause, a pause sounds benign, but when you pause hiring for three months for new grads out of college, in three months when they resume, they don't double the pace. They basically reduce hiring for like 25 or 50% for that year. It's not as if they decide, "Now we're gonna go crazy with hiring when we start again." So you have a reduction in the number of jobs for kids coming out of college, you have stocks are gonna get the shit kicked out of them, you have small and medium-sized businesses that don't know what to do, you have earnings calls which are gonna be an absolute shitshow, and you have the threat of stagflation, and all of this is the chickens coming to roost because countries don't go out of business because they're invaded, they go out of business because they go broke, and we have borrowed so much fucking money. We are so debt-laden that we no longer have that bullet to fire.

Kara Swisher 19:27 I mean, one of the things that's very, uh, that- that's astonishing here is that we think we have choices, and that's the problem with this entire thing, is we do not have the choices we think, and this is not being an America like is a bunch of losers. This is self-inflicted damage that we're doing-

Scott Galloway 19:44 Own goal.

Kara Swisher 19:45 ... to ourselves. You, you know, own, exactly.

Scott Galloway 19:46 Definition of own goal.

Kara Swisher 19:48 Right? It, we could, we should be running, like, uh, just three months ago you were talking about how the U.S. is dominating everything, right, when the transition was happening three or four months ago. Now, we are just doing it to ourselves, and I think most people understand that. But we have to move on, but this is just a, what a fucking disaster. Now, Apple stock and Nvidia stock is up today, because they're hoping that these things stay in place. But they might not, and so you might see an impact. Lots of shares are down right now. Apple and Nvidia are up because they've gotten this break, but who knows what's coming, because he, this is, this idea that he wants to continue to hold over people's head that he could grab these any time, what he, anyone who can't get in on this gravy train, you used the Vietnam thing, I used it yesterday on one of our socials, this is like if you're not on the helicopter out of Saigon, you are fucked. Like, everyone else is fucked. We'll see what political implications that has. But, uh, uh, we'll see where it goes. Anyway, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, the antitrust trial that Mark Zuckerberg tried so hard to shut down, and he looked so nice at the inauguration. We'll get to that.

Kara Swisher 20:53 Scott, we're back. Apparently putting on a tie and kissing up to Trump didn't do the job. The FTC is facing off against Meta in a blockbuster antitrust trial getting underway this week. The case goes back to Trump's first term in 2020, if you can believe it, with the government alleging Meta violated competition laws by acquiring Instagram and WhatsApp. For its part, Meta says regulators should be supporting innovation and it also faces fierce competition from TikTok, Snap, and other platforms. I, I find this to be a little bit of a weak trial, uh, to be honest with you. I think there's others that are m- stronger, but the trial's expected to last about seven to eight weeks. Mark Zuckerberg and Sheryl Sandberg will be called to the stand, among others. Uh, this is the case that Mark Zuckerberg has been trying to stop. Uh, it's interesting that Trump has not intervened. Zuckerberg has visited the White House three times since Trump took office. Meta also donated $1 million to Trump's inaugural fund and settled a lawsuit with Trump for $25 million back in January of which they did nothing. It also just named former Trump advisor Dina Powell McCormick to Meta's board, very, uh, she's also the wife of Senator, uh, David McCormick from Pennsylvania. FTC head Andrew Ferguson has been vocal about reining in tech, but also said he'd obey lawful orders if Trump asked him to drop the suit. I think he would. He's been wearing the Trump... Have you seen the gold-headed Trump that people are wearing? I think it was him, yeah, I think it was Ferguson that was wearing it. Anyway, oh, Brendan Carr was wearing it, excuse me, the head of the, uh, the FCC. Um, so e- so he said he would follow what Trump says, and any thoughts on this? Uh, if Meta loses, the remedy could be divesting Instagram and WhatsApp. Um, the judge who will decide the case for the remedy is, uh, James, uh, Boasberg, who's been clashing with Trump over deportations and many other issues. So h- talk about this case a little bit and what you think will happen here. It is cont- it's going on, so it's not been stopped by any means.

Scott Galloway 22:46 Well, Zuck is the most disliked person in America under the age of 30. He's got a-

Kara Swisher 22:51 Yeah, really.

Scott Galloway 22:51 ... two-thirds unfavorable rating. He's even less-

Kara Swisher 22:53 Yeah, it is kinda crazy.

Scott Galloway 22:54 ... pop, he's even less popular than Musk, and think about, think about when you're the most disliked person amongst a group of people who, who is literally ground zero for your product and two-thirds of those people use your product, and yet you are the most disliked person-

Kara Swisher 23:08 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 23:09 ... um, in America. I'm, I'm hopeful. I had Jonathan Kanter on Prop G and Jonathan said, he was the former head of antitrust at, at the, was he at the-

Kara Swisher 23:20 Justice.

Scott Galloway 23:20 ... DOJ?

Kara Swisher 23:21 Justice, Justice.

Scott Galloway 23:21 He was at Justice, right? And I said, "I'm really sad that you and Lina are gone. I just don't see anything happening." And he said, he actually said, "You know, you underestimate some of the people that are just, that are still there." There's still some people there that are pretty committed and quite frankly sort of, you know, antitrust badasses that are gonna make a very powerful argument. I've become so cynical, Kara. I know what I want to happen. I think that they're gonna play slow ball. I mean, look at how strategic Zuckerberg is. He put Dana White on the board. He's put this, basically this Trumpite on the board. He, he's figured out the existential threat to my business isn't distribution, isn't innovation, it's political, and so I am absolutely muscling up with all sorts of contacts into the White House, and the reality is, this White House can be bought. And not only can the White House be bought, so can the Democratic Caucus with enough money. So, I believe they have become masters at slowing these things down and letting them die a slow death. I hope, I hope I'm wrong.These companies have figured out a way to, to avoid all regulation. I don't see why this would be any different.

Kara Swisher 24:29 I think they're surprised the trial is going forward. Let me just read from the opening statements by the two lawyers. Uh, this is Daniel Matheson, the FTC's lead litigator. Um, "For more than 100 years, American public policy has insisted firms must compete if they want to succeed. The reason we are here is Meta broke the deal. They decided that competition was too hard and it'd be easier to buy out their rivals than compete with them." This is the buy or bury argument. Now, Meta's lawyers, this is a guy named Mark Hansen from a big law firm, Kellogg Hansen. Um, "This case is a grab bag of FTC theories at war with fact and at war with law. The facts are gonna prove the FTC's theories are all wrong." Um, you know, it, it's a very... It is a difficult trial. I've talked to a lot of lawyers. Um, the FTC would like it to divest these companies, um. Legal experts say it might be hard to win. I'll read directly from The New York Times, "That's because the government must prove something unknowable that Meta, formerly known as Facebook, wouldn't have achieved the same success without the acquisition. It's also extremely rare to try to unwind mergers approved years before." So that's one of the difficult ones, even though this is somewhat of a bipartisan effort. Um, it's the th- Just for people to know, there's three going around, um, uh, to go to trial. The DOJ won its case against Google. A federal judge is hearing arguments about remedies and a potential breakup, and there's a separate trial with the DOJ for monopolizing, uh, ad technology by Google. That's still going on. Justice Department has also sued Apple, and the FTC has sued Amazon, accusing the companies of antitrust violations. Those trials are coming up later, just for people to get a background. But if, if they c- If they do spin it off, it would be unprecedented.

Scott Galloway 26:14 Well, I mean, the baby bills were broken up. The aluminum-

Kara Swisher 26:17 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 26:17 The sisters, the seven sisters-

Kara Swisher 26:18 True. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 26:19 ... or whatever. It, it does, it does happen. And generally speaking, when we look back in economic history, there's never been a breakup that hasn't turned out well for everybody. So it's one of the few things that kind of always works are breakups. The problem is, to your point, we should have a much higher bar for approving mergers because quite frankly, the job of the government is to prevent a tragedy to the commons and the easiest way to do that is preventive. And that is not let these companies be acquired to begin with. I mean, even, there's been a lot of officials in the government say, "We screwed up letting Meta acquire Instagram." They probably should have never let, um, Google acquire, what was it? DoubleClick and/or YouTube. So-

Kara Swisher 26:56 It was, uh, uh, that was Google. Yeah, Google, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 26:59 But, uh, so you, there probably needs... What this says is, it is very un- It is very difficult to unwind a merger and force a spin. What is easier is to block an acquisition, and I think the bar should be pretty low to block an acquisition for a company once it gets above a certain dominance in its own category. I think that's what... And what people, what... The argument they make so effectively that resonates with the public is that capitalism means making more money and they should let just be capitalists in the market do its thing. What they don't realize is that the concentration of industry has led to massively higher prices, whether it's-

Kara Swisher 27:34 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 27:34 ... chicken, whether it's pharma, whether it's healthcare.

Kara Swisher 27:37 Right. This is harder.

Scott Galloway 27:38 And think about, the way I look at it is, the hard part is some of these costs are non-economic. But for God's sakes, look at the rents and the increase in emotional prices that Meta has levied on every parent globally.

Kara Swisher 27:49 Ad, ad businesses that have been destroyed because they dominate it and stuff like that. There's those. These are just harder to, to do. Just for people, just a little more we're gonna talk about it. Uh, they, uh, uh, Facebook bought Instagram in 2012 for a billion dollars. I covered this. Um, and then 2014, it paid $19 billion for WhatsApp. Both were crazy prices at the time. Although Instagram certainly has yielded a lot. Um, there is a paper trail of emails between executives talking about the startups because they were threats. I in- I wrote about that at the time. They, they were, uh, uh, the, the, the, one of the lawyers mentioned the documents. Um, he, Zuckerberg was so paranoid and he, he talked about in emails neutralizing a potential competitor. Um, and then, uh, he wrote to Samberg. Uh, Z- Zuckerberg wrote to Samberg, "Messenger isn't beating WhatsApp. Instagram was growing so much faster than us. We had to buy them for a billion." Because they're such bad product people at Facebook, and I cannot underscore this enough, they had to buy or bury. It's a very famous phrase in tech, "Buy or bury." Um, and so that's what they, that's what the government is alleging here. Um, and also keeping it out of other competitors' hands is another one to build a moat around the monopoly. And so WhatsApp was that for them. Um, so it should be really, really interesting, I think. Um, we'll see what happens in this trial. But so far the Trump administration is not doing pay or play here. They're just letting it go, uh, which is to me interesting. I don't know if you have any thoughts on that?

Scott Galloway 29:25 Well, yeah, he doesn't, he doesn't like these guys. And it's... I mean, these... One, it looks as if Instagram would be worth about 100 to $200 billion right now. Now, granted, it might not have had the same level of success had it not been able to cooperate and share data. But what's interesting is within about 40 days of one another was the best and likely the worst acquisition in tech history and they looked remarkably similar at the time. And the best you would argue maybe, um, maybe other than the acquisition of YouTube, which was I think less than a billion, but Mark Zuckerberg bought Instagram for a billion dollars. It's worth 100 to 200 if not more now. And within a month or s- 45 days, the worst acquisition in tech. Do you remember what it is?

Kara Swisher 30:12 I'm thinking it's Yahoo.

Scott Galloway 30:13 Exactly.

Kara Swisher 30:14 Tumblr.

Scott Galloway 30:15 One-

Kara Swisher 30:16 I broke that story, Mr. Scott Galloway.

Scott Galloway 30:18 Okay. I know you did. Uh, so-

Kara Swisher 30:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 30:20 So, uh, uh, Facebook acquires Instagram for a billion. It's worth 1.2 billion. I'm sorry, it's worth 100 to 200 billion. Yahoo/Marissa Mayer acquires Tumblr for 1.2 billion-And I believe about seven years later, they sold it for $3 million.

Kara Swisher 30:38 Yeah, it's worth nothing now.

Scott Galloway 30:39 It's worth nothing.

Kara Swisher 30:40 I just ran into some Tumblr people. What a great site that was, though. You know what I mean? It really was. I liked Tumblr a lot. It was a very innovative site. But you're right. It's just, uh, this is just, come on. This is what Mark Zuckerberg played from the Bill Gates Buyrberry, uh, playbook. Sorry. It's, this is what this is. We'll see if they can decide if, uh, Facebook will make the argument, Meta will make the argument that there's plenty of competition, and that, that there's lots and lots, there's, you know, whatever, Bluesky, whatever there's... But the fact of the matter is, they, two things, both for Google and for Facebook. When have you seen a new fresh social network get built, if not buried? Like, you know, Na- Snapchat is doing its level best, but Mark keeps stealing his things because he can't buy it, he couldn't buy it, and so he decided to bury it. That's what they did with Snapchat. And when have you last seen a new search engine that really had any kind of traction? And you, you were close with the guy who did the one, who left Google and tried to do it. It's impossible.

Scott Galloway 31:39 He left, yeah.

Kara Swisher 31:39 Nobody's going to be, nobody can switch. The switch costs are too high. And then when Apple does a deal with these companies and makes them the de facto map or, um, or whatever, map or search engine, it sort of puts the ni- the nail in the coffin for every other competitor. And the similar thing we were just talking about with the tariffs. If you can get the, an out like Apple did, you're great. If you can't, like your, your furniture guy, you're fucked. Like, that's really it. And this is-

Scott Galloway 32:06 It's corruption. It's corruption everywhere.

Kara Swisher 32:07 It's corruption, yeah, so-

Scott Galloway 32:08 It's the, it's an autocrat. It's not systemic. And also, just to put a fine point on the concentration of industry, this is happening up and down industries. US higher education-

Kara Swisher 32:20 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 32:20 ... is a cartel. There's two great universities in every city, and the people who give you accreditation such that you have access to student loans are run by the incumbents.

Kara Swisher 32:30 Right.

Scott Galloway 32:31 My company, my old company, L2, got acquired by a large research company that everybody hates and everybody uses. And I couldn't figure out, after they acquired us, the series of decisions they made. Every, I felt like it was George Costanza, where everything I thought they should do, they did the exact opposite. I just didn't understand the decisions they were making. And it finally dawned on me about 18 months later, and I'm just speculating. I'm like, "I think they thought, 'Okay, we'll pay 3% of our market cap for this company, 'cause they're nipping at our heels around, uh, CMOs, and if they, we'll squeeze them for cashflow and then we'll put them out of business." It was b- I think I'm like, "I think I've just been aqua-killed."

Kara Swisher 33:10 Yep, yep, aqua-killed, that's what it is, yeah, that Buyrberry.

Scott Galloway 33:12 And, and, and it's like, okay, a competitor goes away. They, they get some cashflow back, and quite frankly, for two or 3% dilution, just not having someone running around nipping at your heels-

Kara Swisher 33:26 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 33:26 ... establishing a wedge in your business.

Kara Swisher 33:28 Yep.

Scott Galloway 33:28 And I remember thinking, "Why on earth are they doing nothing with us? Why are they not-

Kara Swisher 33:34 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 33:34 ... driving the business?" And-

Kara Swisher 33:35 "Why do not they understand me? I'm a genius." Right? (laughs) I've been there.

Scott Galloway 33:40 (laughs) They, they, they've domesticated me.

Kara Swisher 33:43 Domesticated me, not, and then you left-

Scott Galloway 33:44 Yeah, I mean, poor me-

Kara Swisher 33:45 ... and then you left.

Scott Galloway 33:45 Poor me with, poor me with my big-

Kara Swisher 33:47 I know.

Scott Galloway 33:47 ... fucking bag of money, but-

Kara Swisher 33:48 I know, right, yeah, you got a bag of money.

Scott Galloway 33:49 ... this is what happens.

Kara Swisher 33:50 You did get a bag of money.

Scott Galloway 33:51 The conspiracy is-

Kara Swisher 33:53 That's what they have. They have bags and bags of money, everybody.

Scott Galloway 33:55 That's right.

Kara Swisher 33:55 That's what they're doing.

Scott Galloway 33:55 They show up to an entrepreneur and they say, "Tell you what. We're gonna make you rich. Just stop bothering and competing against us. Stop bothering us-"

Kara Swisher 34:02 Well, in this case-

Scott Galloway 34:02 ... and stop competing."

Kara Swisher 34:03 ... in this case, Trump ain't playing, so we'll see where it goes, uh, from here. Um, I, I think the, the, the, one of the things that Meta is doing, I was t- I got texted by a Meta person today. They're like, "Can you believe this?" And I'm like, "Yes. Yes, I can."

Scott Galloway 34:18 Yeah, sure we can.

Kara Swisher 34:18 "Sure we can."

Scott Galloway 34:19 Sure we can.

Kara Swisher 34:19 Um, and by the way, you know, if, if they take off, um, Instagram, good for the go- good for capitalism if they do. If they take off WhatsApp, good for capitalism. If they spin off YouTube, good for capital- we're capitalists, Scott and Tara, because we think that's good for this country, it's good for competition, and maybe you'll do a little better in your other things if you have to not just buy-

Scott Galloway 34:40 It's good for the stock price. It's good, it's good for the stock price, yeah.

Kara Swisher 34:40 Yeah, if you can't just buy your, buy your wife or husband or whatever, it's good for everybody. All right, Scott. Let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Blue Origin sends an all-female crew into space. We must be very careful here. But nonetheless, it's heinous.

Scott Galloway 34:56 Mm-hmm. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 34:57 We'll find out what Scott has to say.

Scott Galloway 34:59 Yeah. Uh-huh.

Kara Swisher 35:00 Oh, I can't wait to see what you have to say. Anyway, uh, we'll get to that, uh, next.

Kara Swisher 35:05 Scott, we're back. El Salvador's president says he won't order a return of the Maryland man who was mistakenly deported. President Bukele, who I'm just gonna call sleazy club owner, appeared with President Trump at the White House. By the way, he wasn't wearing a tie. I'm, I think it was very, um, it wasn't very stately of him to appear looking like he's about to, you know, do an ecstasy, uh, dance or something. Um, the two appeared as Trump administration was digging into its heels, refusing to bring, uh, Gar- uh, Garcias, uh, Garcia back to the US. Uh, at one point, um, El Salvadorian, uh, president, uh, Bukele called him a terrorist. There's no proof of, how could I bring, how can I smuggle a terrorist back into the country? Stop it, you unctuous piece of shit. Uh, a Supreme Court ruling is directing the government to, quote, "facilitate" the return. That's a weird word. Now, Trump administration's, is arguing that what facilitate means then, they just need to remove any obstacles to return him, not actually bring him back. Also, the agenda for today's White House meeting political reports a team of defense contractors is pitching the White House on a plan to expand deportations to El Salvador. Uh, I'm not sure what's more frightening, the legal implications, the administration cozying up to another unsavory leader, which this guy is. Um, this one calls themselves the world's coolest dictator. He's certainly the world's most oily dictator, I've seen of late. Um, I, uh, he just seems, just completely just f- in it for the money. He's very popular, let me say, in El Salvador. I know a lot of people from El Salvador, and they like him because he cleaned up a lot of the gang violence there by just arresting everybody. Very similar, uh, to, um, the Philippines, uh, with Duterte. Uh, but of course, he's gone overboard, as they all do with, in limited power. Um, and, uh, and so e- they're, they're just pretending this guy's a terrorist, and just, you know, when, when reporters were, were justifiably asking about this, Trump mocked them. He, uh, then Rubio jumped in about the, that the Supreme Court has no purchase over, uh, over, um-... the way the government decides to do foreign policy, only the president does. What a, what a, what a waste of breath that guy has become. Um, so anyway, thoughts, legal implications, world's coolest dictator?

Scott Galloway 37:22 Look, uh, El Salvador was, was the murder capital of the world, and so this guy's very popular, but basically, basically, he just started rounding up people who had, you know, a tattoo that said they had a gang affiliation. So there's tremendous collateral damage there. And you have to decide, do you opt for rights and with some crime and inconvenience and cost, or do you go full autocrat? And we said this on the last show, uh, w- when you round up people, it takes a different complexion. This is a form of rounding up people. This is, there are, there are just some innocent people being rounded up. And what is just insane is these people supposedly, you know, are, are, are Christians, right? They, they all, they're all very fond of holding the Bible. If you know that you have (laughs) taken an innocent person and sent them to a hellscape, and Bill Maher summarized it perfectly, "We can bring a man back from space, but you don't, we can't get someone back from El Salvador?" Of course, we could get them back. Of course, we could get them back. And then the weirdest moment was this weirdo Kristi Noem posing, uh, with guns after having a Sephora explode all over her face. It felt like a fucking Cinemax film where she was gonna start-

Kara Swisher 38:39 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 38:39 ... having sex with all the prisoners.

Kara Swisher 38:42 Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 38:42 It's like-

Kara Swisher 38:42 I agree.

Scott Galloway 38:43 It's like this is just a snuff film. This is weird people, and also th- you can't... Uh, don't hold bibles when you start taking people and sending them, uh, incorrectly, unjustifiably. It's like, for God's sakes, have you no sense of decency? It's just-

Kara Swisher 39:02 And, and why wouldn't Bukele take our money and create a Guantanamo there? That's what he's doing. Why wouldn't he take our money? It's good for him. Um, and he doesn't care who, who is innocent. It's, by the way, it's not his business to care who's innocent or not. But if we send someone who's innocent there, and i- m- it looks like many of them were or had no criminal background that were sent to these prisons, Venezuelans in particular, because Venezuela won't take these, um, their, their, their people back. You can't send them to prison. You just can't. Put them in another country and let them go, I guess, if you have to do with th- this heinous stuff you're doing. But to put them in a prison and they ha- they're guilty... I mean, was, was it 60 Minutes showed up, they had, uh, 75% of them had no criminal background whatsoever. They just had a tattoo to their mother with a crown on it. Um, just really, uh, just, uh, look, I mean, I'm sorry, if that was the case, Pete Hegseth would be in a El Salvadoran prison. He's got a lot of tattoos. Um, so I, I just, uh, just, it's really, the, the, w- the worst thing is them trying to parse what the, the, the, after Trump promised he would follow what the Supreme Court said, he's not following what the Supreme Court said. The same thing they're doing, they were supposed to let back in AP into the, into the, into the cycle, into the press cycle. They're not letting... They're barring AP even though it was, they were ruled against. They just don't do it. They're lawless as, as a, as a government, essentially.

Scott Galloway 40:27 Yeah. Uh, uh, I think you summarized it perfectly. I don't, I don't understand the whole idea of roundups. Uh, we saw this last show. Just be careful. When you tolerate this, just wait for the knock on your door. And the other theme this goes to is the following. The only thing I know about these people is who's not being deported and that is rich people.

Kara Swisher 40:46 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 40:47 Your rights-

Kara Swisher 40:48 I can think of a lot of criminals, rich criminals and stuff.

Scott Galloway 40:51 Well, you're, you're... Again, in America, the whole idea of a constitution and laws is to protect the most vulnerable. The, the rich are protected by the law, they're not bound by it. And the poor are bound by the law, but not protected by it. And I don't... I can't name a person, I c- nobody m- nobody in the top quintile of income earning Americans or who was here illegal who has money has been taken. This is, this is what is so mendacious, so un-Christian, so un-American, such a violation of our constitution, is that the basis, the basis of your quality as a government is how the poorest and most vulnerable are treated. You could take the top 10 fast food companies, do a statistically significant sample of raids and say, "22%, 25% of McDonald's or Jack in the Box workers are undocumented. We're fining you $100,000 a day per percentage." Uh, and guess what? You'd end it. Here's the sec- here's the dirty secret. Immigration is the secret sauce of America, but the most profitable part of immigration is illegal immigration, 'cause they pay Social Security taxes, but they don't, but they don't collect Social Security. They pay taxes for our cops and firemen, but they don't call cops 'cause they're worried about being deported. So we have turned a blind eye. If we wanted to stop this problem, we would fine the employers, but we're not interested in doing that. We want to pretend-

Kara Swisher 42:15 Right.

Scott Galloway 42:15 ... that this is a runaway problem. And to be clear, it did get runaway, it got out of hand, 250,000 people crossing the border in December of '23. But folks, we have purposefully ignored this problem, because illegal immigrants-... are super fucking profitable.

Kara Swisher 42:31 Except, you know what, Scott? They're profitable in terms of creating prisons and putting them in it. That's, it's profitable for a very different group of people is that we round them up and we put them in these camps, uh, which is what we did with the Japanese. And we, we're sh- a shameful part of our history. You know, a lot of these people are also... Like, let's figure out who... Like, the woman who got grabbed off the street. Remember that video with all the people in the masks coming up to her? She has not done... They've found out she's done nothing wrong. She's done nothing wrong except write an op-ed that was vaguely and politely against what was happening. Like, she just, uh... And now foreign students here in this country are so scared. Um, and I, I, I've heard from many are scared of saying anything or doing anything. And if you have even a minor, like, weed violation, you're getting taken. Like, whatever excuse they can have, something you wrote or, or something else, you can get taken. And, uh, you know, this is, you should be, ha- you have t- you should have to appear. It's called habeas corpus, everyone. Requires a person in custody to appear before a judge. It's one of ou- the core fundamental rights that protects against arbitrary state, uh, action. And, and he is trying to suspend habeas corpus for, for ridiculous reasons, ridiculous and nonsensical reasons, like we're all in danger and we're not. So anyway, uh, world's coolest dictator, you're not cool. You're uncool. You're... If you have to call yourselves the world's coolest dictator, you're not cool. And speaking of not cool, let's move on to some lighter news, other wastes of time and money.

Kara Swisher 44:00 Uh, in a giant publicity stunt for Jeff Bezos, six women are launched, uh, into space aboard a giant penis. Lauren Sanchez, Kate, Katy Perry, Gayle King, and three others, uh, made, uh, made a 10-minute trip on Blue Origin's New Shepard rocket and returned safely to earth, thank goodness. Uh, noted science aficionados Oprah Winfrey, Kris Jenner, and Khloe Kardashian watched from the launch site in West Texas. Uh, it's the first time an all-female crew has been in space since 1963. And yes, Scott, they did fly, uh, above, uh, above the Kármán line, um, just so you know. Um, so reactions, Scott? Their outfits-

Scott Galloway 44:38 I don't know if you heard. I don't know if you heard, but they called Houston and they said, um, "Houston, we have a problem." And Houston said, "What is it?" And they said, "Well, you should know what it is."

Kara Swisher 44:46 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 44:47 Actually-

Kara Swisher 44:47 That's your joke?

Scott Galloway 44:48 Actually, Kara, I was hoping that-

Kara Swisher 44:50 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 44:50 ... we'd get to see them, uh, masturbate, because I'd like to see them def-

Kara Swisher 44:54 Oh, no.

Scott Galloway 44:54 I'd like to see them defile gravity. (laughs)

Kara Swisher 44:57 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 44:58 I could keep going. I could-

Kara Swisher 45:00 Oh, my God.

Scott Galloway 45:00 ... keep going. Look, uh, hey, look. At, at, at the end of the day-

Kara Swisher 45:04 It's such a... Yeah.

Scott Galloway 45:05 Uh, uh, fine. Good for them. We do a lot of superfluous things.

Kara Swisher 45:09 This is not, this is not... I get it. But this is not... I, what, here's what I... I'm fine.

Scott Galloway 45:11 Good for them.

Kara Swisher 45:11 They can fly up there with their outfits, th- their slinky outfits, whatever they want to do. Here's what I don't like. Pretending it's a feminist movement. It's just not. It's just a bunch of ladies p- And, and their interviews show that, because they're talking about their eyeshadow and their eyeliner and et cetera. They're going up there. It's a total PR stunt. You are not here to save women. I'm sorry. If you wanted to save women, you'd be saving the woman who was grabbed off the street. You'd be saving all kinds of things. Uh, or you'd be, you'd be pushing up against Facebook and saying, "We really shouldn't be doing things to young girls that make them feel bad." Like, this is not... That's all. Of the, all the things you could do to help women, this is not one of them. And that's how I feel about it.

Scott Galloway 45:50 You wanna know what a, who a real-

Kara Swisher 45:51 But have fun. Have fun.

Scott Galloway 45:52 Sorry. You wanna know who a real female astronaut is? Sally Ride, a PhD in physics. PhD in physics, learned how to operate that crazy robotic arm, uh, and as Megyn Kelly would say, openly lesbian.

Kara Swisher 46:05 (laughs)

Scott Galloway 46:05 And spent a ton of time in space.

Kara Swisher 46:08 I don't know if she's openly...

Scott Galloway 46:09 Didn't, didn't make a lot of money. I mean, Sally Ride is our r- uh, is our astronaut. These folks-

Kara Swisher 46:14 Yep, I agree.

Scott Galloway 46:14 I, I hate the idea of which-

Kara Swisher 46:15 There were, there were some science people on board. Uh, there were some science people on board.

Scott Galloway 46:19 Science people.

Kara Swisher 46:20 Whatever. There were. But still, it's just a stunt. It's a stunt. It's not feminist. It's just a stunt. And how m- how much fun Oprah and all the rest of you have, but there's some serious shit happening, so maybe stop pretending that you're doing something.

Scott Galloway 46:32 Uh, have at... I, I don't resent them for it. Have at it.

Kara Swisher 46:34 Yeah, have, have at it.

Scott Galloway 46:34 Have fun. Go up.

Kara Swisher 46:35 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I just don't-

Scott Galloway 46:37 Go up.

Kara Swisher 46:37 ... like the feminist thing. Okay. Okay, last thing. Uh, Sally wasn't openly lesbian, just so you know.

Scott Galloway 46:43 Oh, she wasn't?

Kara Swisher 46:44 She... No.

Scott Galloway 46:44 Well, I meant... I was a play on-

Kara Swisher 46:45 I see, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 46:45 Notice how no, no one has ever described me as openly heterosexual.

Kara Swisher 46:50 Not until now. Openly try.

Scott Galloway 46:50 No one has ever said openly heterosexual podcaster.

Kara Swisher 46:53 Yeah. Yes.

Scott Galloway 46:53 That was my favorite part about her attack on you, as if, as if you're, you're not allowed to be openly lesbian (laughs) .

Kara Swisher 46:59 I am openly a lesbian.

Scott Galloway 47:00 How dare you? She's openly lesbian. At least she'd have been-

Kara Swisher 47:05 Openly. That's a real outhit, yeah.

Scott Galloway 47:05 At least, at least, good madam, you'd have the dignity to be a c- closeted lesbian.

Kara Swisher 47:10 A closeted lesbian. I've been in a clo- I was never really in a clo- I was in a closet. That's not true. I was not openly lesbian at the beginning of my journey of lesbianity, but, which started at age four, but we're not going into it with Megyn Kelly. What a, what a she-devil she is. Anyway, last

Kara Swisher 47:26 thing. Bill Maher says he wasn't high at his White House dinner with President Trump, even though he also claims that Trump was, quote, "Gracious and measured." The comedian described his March 31st visit with the president, uh, uh, during a monologue at the top of his Friday show. People were, felt it was controversial. The dinner was organized by illustrious statesman Kid Rock. Uh, Bill said that he and musician, quote, "Cher believed that there's got to be something better than hurling insults from 3,000 miles away," although Bill's pretty fucking good at that. Um-

Scott Galloway 47:55 Mm-hmm.

Kara Swisher 47:55 Here's what he had to say about his interaction with Trump.

Narrator 47:58 He's much more self-aware than he lets on in public. Look, I get it. It doesn't matter who he is at a private dinner with a comedian. It matters who he is on the world stage. I'm just taking as a positive that this person exists, because everything I've ever not liked about him was, I swear to God, absent, at least on this night with this guy.

Kara Swisher 48:21 Okay. I, I'm gonna be on Bill Maher's show in a couple of weeks. I think you are too. Are you gonna be on soon?

Scott Galloway 48:26 No, I was supposed to be on Friday, and I-

Kara Swisher 48:28 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 48:29 I, I, I had a tough time trying to figure out a way to be on with Steve Bannon. I'm<|agent|><|en|>

Kara Swisher 48:32 Yeah, good for you.

Scott Galloway 48:32 Something about the idea that, in a little way, normalizing Nazi salutes, I just, I don't know.

Kara Swisher 48:36 Yeah, good for you.

Scott Galloway 48:36 I didn't know how to thread the needle there, but anyways.

Kara Swisher 48:38 That's right. We talked about it. I'm glad you did that.

Scott Galloway 48:39 I called you and asked your ad- I called you and asked some-

Kara Swisher 48:40 I said don't go, and I said... Yeah.

Scott Galloway 48:41 I called you and, and asked your advice.

Kara Swisher 48:43 Yeah. Yeah, you're a great panelist there.

Scott Galloway 48:44 Th-

Kara Swisher 48:44 Go ahead. You start. You start.

Scott Galloway 48:46 Well-

Kara Swisher 48:46 I have some thoughts too.

Scott Galloway 48:48 Look, I, I, I think Bill Maher did, and Joe and Mika did the right thing. I think when the president calls you and says, "Come to the Oval Office," I think you go. I, I... And I think that him trying to show... Him not immediately going to the, to the kind of polarized, "This guy's a fucking idiot," and, and, and acknowledging that he's a charming guy, or that maybe trying to provide some comfort that he's not, he's not as crazy as we think, and he's self-aware and he listens, I think that's important. The, the only thing, and this might be my bias, is that someone who, you know, is so angry and aggressive, uh, and I'm talking about the president now, against people, I've heard this about President Trump, that when he meets you, he's nice and he's charming, and then a few minutes later, he'll basically say vile things about you to his 200 million followers. I think someone who's nice to you to your face and then shit-posts you behind your back in a way that really hurts your reputation, I think there's a word for that: asshole. I, I, I much prefer someone, and I think you're like this, I, I think you're more likely... Who do you want? If someone... I- if it's like... If you're gonna be critical of someone, try and do it in a constructive way to them personally, and then speak well of them, or at least gently behind their back. I, I just don't... I think that is the worst role model for our young people.

Kara Swisher 50:07 Yeah, yeah, I agree. I agree. I-

Scott Galloway 50:08 And-

Kara Swisher 50:09 Go ahead.

Scott Galloway 50:10 But I'm glad, I'm glad he did it. I think he was smart to do it. I think you, you... I think it's a dignified thing to do. I thought, it's an impossible needle to thread, because people who hate Trump are angry at him for going. They're angry at him for acknowledging the president has some positive qualities. I think it, it's kind of an impossible position or needle to thread for Bill.

Kara Swisher 50:31 Well, here's what I think happened. He was getting very, uh, sharp on Trump, very sharp, very tough. And they decided to neuter him a little bit by being charming. I think he has been doing some really... You know, he has been... He tries to do the down-the-middle contrarian thing a lot of the time, but he's been... does some, the sharpest attacks on Trump among comics. And which there are many, by the way.

Scott Galloway 50:52 He's very good.

Kara Swisher 50:52 So, I think they were trying... I thought they were trying to neuter him, and it worked in that regard. Now, you know, look, I think it's right to go to the dinner. That would be really interesting. But to say, "Oh, look, he's charming in person"? Like, I'm sure Goebbels was thrilling at a cocktail party, my friend. Like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, sure, yeah, lots of people, by the way, that I talk to-

Scott Galloway 51:12 Uh, Mussolini was great to party with.

Kara Swisher 51:13 Mussolini was so much fucking fun.

Scott Galloway 51:14 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 51:14 He put a ha- he put a lampshade on his head and we'd dance all night, and you know, and... You know, the tarantella. I, like, I don't know what to say. Like, I don't... I just am like... I... So, so Bill... I, I will bring this up with Bill if he lets me on now, but, um, was he, was he lying to you at dinner or to the world? Which one? Because he is a terrible person publicly. Terrible. The stuff he did today, terrible. Um, and it's not... There's nothing charming about keeping a p- a person who is unjustly jailed in jail, and then laughing about it and then haranguing reporters about it. There's nothing, you know, charming about most of the things he's... There's nothing charming about ruining your friend's business. There's nothing charming about it. So, I- I just... Honestly, that's what I kept thinking of. Like, I'm sure, like, any nasty piece of shit is charming in person, and there are a lot of them that I have dealt with. But, uh, you should have gone, but you... Don't give me this, he's charming, 'cause he's not. He's just not charming. And he's... He'll probably... The minute you go after him again, which I hope and pray you will, and I know you will, actually, 'cause, because m-... He doesn't pull punches a lot. Sometimes he does, but he doesn't really as a comic. So, the minute you go after him again, he's like, "I was so nice to him. I made him dinner. I was con-... I showed him off the White House. I showed him my bedroom," whatever. He's gonna come after you. So that's... Nah, I don't know. Whatever. Anyway. Uh, but I, I probably... Would you go to dinner if he asked us? Do you think he'd ever ask us? He doesn't give a fuck about us, but... Yeah.

Scott Galloway 52:41 Well, uh, I agree, we're not on his radar screen. I, I, I said this about Joe and Mika, I believe this about Bill Maher.

Kara Swisher 52:47 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 52:47 I think if the president calls you and asks you to come to the White House, you go.

Kara Swisher 52:51 No, I'll go.

Scott Galloway 52:52 I just think you go.

Kara Swisher 52:52 I just wouldn't be as polite in person. I wouldn't be like, "Oh, hey, can I have a roll?" That's the kind of thing. Anyway, we'll see. Um, we'll see what happens. I'll tell this to Bill's face when I see him. Anyway. Scott, one more quick... 'Cause I do that, Bill. I say things to your face that I say in front of your back, behind your back, anywhere, near your house, anywhere.

Scott Galloway 53:08 He's my hero.

Kara Swisher 53:10 I know, I know, I know.

Scott Galloway 53:10 That guy's my hero.

Kara Swisher 53:11 I know. I'm glad you didn't go, Scott Galloway. Now I like you even more. Ugh.

Scott Galloway 53:16 Come on.

Kara Swisher 53:17 Is that possible? Is that possible? Good for you, Scott Galloway. Good for you. I know you like being on that show too.

Scott Galloway 53:22 I do. I love it.

Kara Swisher 53:22 So, I know. Oh, have him back, Bill. Don't be a, don't be a douchenoz and have him back. Uh, all right, Scott, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.

Kara Swisher 53:32 Okay, Scott, let's hear some wins and fails. May I start?

Scott Galloway 53:35 We'll just, uh... Yeah, you go ahead. Sorry, Kara.

Kara Swisher 53:38 Let me start. Let me just say two things. Television is so happy place for me these days, watching different things, and this weekend, there's two shows. G20, with Viola Davis, where she plays a kick-ass woman president who, like, kicks ass. She acts... They go to the G2 Summit. There's a South African guy who takes over all the G20... It's called G20, excuse me. And, um, and she kicks ass and wins it. It's like Harrison Ford's Air Force One. And let me just say, I love Viola Davis. I love her kicking ass and killing, uh, South African terrorists. And, or maybe they're from Australia. I don't know. They have that accent. So good. It was so bad and so good at the same time. It was Air Force One, but Viola Davis, so there was some good acting in there too. Fan-fucking-tastic. Second one, Hacks, it's the season premiere. Again, two women, um, Hannah Einbender and, um, uh, oh God, I'm blanking out.

Scott Galloway 54:38 Jean Smart.

Kara Swisher 54:38 Jean, Jean Smart. Oh my God.

Scott Galloway 54:40 Jean Smart is in that, yeah.

Kara Swisher 54:41 It, it has risen a level of qua-... Like-

Scott Galloway 54:43 The birds, right?

Kara Swisher 54:43 ... it was already one of my favorite shows.

Scott Galloway 54:45 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 54:45 This season, the two of them go... At some point, I'm like, "Just kiss, you two." Because they're going... Their insults of each other and the going back and forth, and then there's a poignant moment in the first two episodes about heartbreak, and I just...... love this show so much. So, f- win, win, win, win, win with these badass women, I have to say. And they're just, they're, th- they're, they're just wonderful. The fail is obviously Doge falling short of its goal. It was supposed to save, uh, $2 trillion and it went to $1 trillion. Now he said, Elon said in a meeting, um, that it's $150 billion. A- Da- Dave Fahrenthold, as always, he's now at the New York Times, showed the math to be wrong again. That, it's probably even less money that he is, uh, that he's saving. But we don't even know how much he's costing for, for the savings. That's not in, in this. So, he's not saving any money and he's causing incredible harm, and cutting things without thinking about it and doing it surgically, so we're not benefited as a people on stuff. We should reform government as everybody thinks. So, what an incredible waste of our time and energy to have this ridiculous person prance all over the place saying he's saving money and then, of course, he's not delivering. It's the same thing that, this is a theme of his life right now is promis- uh, under, uh, over-promising and under-delivering, whether it's the Cybertruck, whether it's autonomous cars. This is just such a, such a ridiculous thing, th- this Doge thing, um, given how much energy and time and pain it has caused people unnecessarily. That is my fail.

Scott Galloway 56:20 Uh, I like it, and I'm, I was gonna do a prediction but I'll try and reshape it-

Kara Swisher 56:24 Sure.

Scott Galloway 56:24 ... as a win and a fail.

Kara Swisher 56:25 Okay.

Scott Galloway 56:26 Um, the, the fail is what you, I'll just piggyback off what you said. Essentially, uh, if this audit proved anything, it's that there's a lot less inefficiency and waste and fraud than we thought. I mean, this is about as clean a bill of health as anywe- 'cause they were dying to find fraud, and they just didn't, they just didn't find very much. And most of their claims of fraud and savings ended up to be fraudulent themselves in that they were lies. And we predicted he would exit. He's gone. I think he's already gone. I think he's already figured out this is-

Kara Swisher 56:57 He was, he was with Trump the other night at that stupid WW-

Scott Galloway 57:00 Yeah, but that's proximity to power.

Kara Swisher 57:02 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 57:02 I think Doge-

Kara Swisher 57:03 Yeah, yeah.

Scott Galloway 57:03 I think Doge is basically, the curtain is closing on Doge. It just didn't work. It was a distraction, fine, but they, it's not, it's not working. The, the reality is, um, Americans again, see above, not willing to endure pain, they have to face a hard decision here. You know, it's the hard thing about the hard things, and that is if we're serious about being a co- being a country that doesn't spend tr- $7 trillion and take in 5 trillion in tax receipts, there's only two things you can do, folks. You either have to cut entitlements or raise taxes, and the answer is yes. And at some point we're gonna have to figure out a way to do that. And, or, or just wait till we get, you know, shoved in a corner and, uh, the people who own our debt can basically start calling the shots, which they're doing now. In a company w- that gets so highly levered, basically the bank owes you. And this is what's happening to us. Our creditors are beginning to owe us. This is Doge, Doge was a, was jazz hands. It didn't, it, a clean bill of health. When we decide to elect a grownup, we're gonna have to make some very hard decisions here. My win, and it's sort of win but this really was my prediction, you're going to see a flurry of deals. You know, the Art of the Deal, the basic premise was, okay, we're, we're, he's a negotiator. He's bringing these people to the table. First off, we just need to dispel the notion this guy's a good business person. He's a rich kid that would've made more money if he'd given, taken all of his massive inheritance and put it into ETFs. His business career is basically a series of bankrupted companies and unpaid subcontractors. So let's just stop this nonsense that he has any fucking clue what he's doing in terms of business. He has unwittingly inspired unbelievable, an unbelievable torrent tsunami of deals, cross-border trade deals.

Kara Swisher 58:54 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 58:54 But it won't be with us.

Kara Swisher 58:56 Mm-hmm.

Scott Galloway 58:57 The EU is talking to Latin America. Japan, South Korea, and China are talking. This has set off incredible incentive for a ton of nations around the world to start thinking about free trade zones, to become more dependent upon each other, to take the cost of reconfiguring their supply chain and excising America from the supply chain. They're thinking, "How can we make up for some of that lost economic growth that this is gonna cost us? I know, let's lower each other's trade barriers." The unwitting unintended consequence of this is that the US is about to trade off a lot of its own prosperity, and it's gonna leak to other western nations who are talking to each other and cooperating and coordinating now. You're gonna see trade deals between Mexico and Canada. You're gonna see trade deals between the EU and China. This is going to, the, the intent, what they pla- what they claimed they were gonna accomplish for America, they've accomplished for everyone else but America.

Kara Swisher 59:59 Yes, it's true. We're, they're gonna get all the avocados in Canada, and, and Mexicans are gonna get all the good maple syrup. Do you hear that, people? It's finished. Avocado toast and pancakes are done for us, as Americans.

Scott Galloway 1:00:11 Much, much less lumber or, or gypsum drywall.

Kara Swisher 1:00:14 Gypsum.

Scott Galloway 1:00:14 You wanna talk about tr-

Kara Swisher 1:00:15 Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:00:15 ... the cost of building right now, gypsum drywall-

Kara Swisher 1:00:17 I can't even.

Scott Galloway 1:00:17 ... from Mexico, or lumber? By the way, I'm interviewing-

Kara Swisher 1:00:19 I just renovated my house. I am so pleased that I did it last year.

Scott Galloway 1:00:23 I'm interviewing-

Kara Swisher 1:00:24 My, my, my, my contractor said it would've been double.

Scott Galloway 1:00:26 I'm interviewing Mark Carney this afternoon. What would you ask him?

Kara Swisher 1:00:29 Oh, what? What?

Scott Galloway 1:00:31 Yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:00:31 Scott Galloway.

Scott Galloway 1:00:33 He reached out.

Kara Swisher 1:00:33 For what? Which show? Which show?

Scott Galloway 1:00:35 Uh, it's-

Kara Swisher 1:00:36 What's it called?

Scott Galloway 1:00:36 I wanted to do it for Pivot: Raging Moderates. He said he wanted-

Kara Swisher 1:00:38 Right.

Scott Galloway 1:00:38 ... to do it for Profitable Conversations.

Kara Swisher 1:00:40 Well, good. Okay, good.

Scott Galloway 1:00:40 I think he wants to talk about Young Man.

Kara Swisher 1:00:42 Yeah, good. Well, that's, I heard you have, by the way, you have another podcast you didn't tell me about?

Scott Galloway 1:00:46 Which one's this?

Kara Swisher 1:00:48 The one, the man, the men thing with Scaramucci and, uh, Smerconish.

Scott Galloway 1:00:51 Oh, that's a limited series. He called me and said, "Let's do four pods."

Kara Swisher 1:00:54 Yeah, it was good for your book coming out.

Scott Galloway 1:00:56 Yeah, that's just a, that's just a fun thing.

Kara Swisher 1:00:56 Just remember Scott's book... Good, I'm very excited. You, you, you cat around on me quite a bit. That's okay, I don't mind.

Scott Galloway 1:01:01 I do.

Kara Swisher 1:01:01 I just want to know about it, I didn't know about that.

Scott Galloway 1:01:03 It's alcohol. I hope, it has nothing to do with our relationship, I just like to wake up with a strange man's lipstick all over my dick.

Kara Swisher 1:01:09 I understand, I'm thrilled, I'm, I wanna make, I want... Okay. (laughs) I want-

Scott Galloway 1:01:11 Slip that in there. Slip that in there.

Kara Swisher 1:01:12 I know you did, I'm ignoring it completely.

Scott Galloway 1:01:13 Slip that in there.

Kara Swisher 1:01:14 I would like to make your book, like, a bestseller.

Scott Galloway 1:01:16 Defy all gravity.

Kara Swisher 1:01:16 I'd like you-

Scott Galloway 1:01:17 Defy all gravity, Katy Perry.

Kara Swisher 1:01:19 I'd like you, I'd like to, I, I, I like, I wanna make your book Atomic Habits.

Scott Galloway 1:01:20 Let me hear you roar, you 90s pop star wonton bitch. Oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

Kara Swisher 1:01:28 She defied gravity.

Scott Galloway 1:01:29 I know.

Kara Swisher 1:01:29 All right, okay, there you have it. Um, those are good. But please, for the love of God, watch Viola Davis kick some ass, it's so good. It's so-

Scott Galloway 1:01:36 I think that's just an attempt to address your PTSD and pretend that Vice President Harris won the election.

Kara Swisher 1:01:42 No, no, no, she couldn't, Vice President Harris couldn't have done this. This was...

Scott Galloway 1:01:46 No?

Kara Swisher 1:01:46 Just watch, trust me, watch it and then call me back.

Scott Galloway 1:01:48 Okay.

Kara Swisher 1:01:48 Just, I'm just telling you. I'm just telling you.

Scott Galloway 1:01:50 Okay. All right.

Kara Swisher 1:01:50 You'll love it, it's so much fun. Like, 'cause she's won the, she's won an Oscar, isn't she? She won an Oscar? Whatever, she deserves an Oscar. She won an Emmy, an Oscar, whatever. This woman is like top actor, just chewing up the scenery, it's so enjoyable. She did win, uh, a TV show years ago called How to Get Away with Murder, which you should watch again.

Scott Galloway 1:02:09 Oh, yeah.

Kara Swisher 1:02:09 Where she also chewed up the scenery with her Oscar-winning acting abilities. Anyway.

Scott Galloway 1:02:13 She's very talented.

Kara Swisher 1:02:14 She's so talented, but I love that she's doing this and, and just punching people in the face with a machine, the whole thing, it's fantastic. Anyway, we wanna hear from you, send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your mind. Go to nyamg.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 855-51-PIVOT. Also, Pivot is up for a Webby Award for best business podcast, and we are asking for your vote. And some of other, yours, your other podcasts are also up, so vote for Prof G. Uh, I don't know if On is, but in any case, uh, vote for us. Go to vote.webbyawards.com to cast your ballot. We won last year and we're hoping for a twofer. Um, elsewhere in the Scott and Kara universe, I just did a whole panel on tariffs with trade law expert Raj Bala, Puck's Bill Cohen and Catherine Rampell from the Washington Post. Uh, let's listen to a quick clip.

Narrator 1:03:04 The only way I can explain it is that we're dealing with the madness of King George type moment. M- Maybe Trump is trading on the volatility and certainly there's a lot of money to be made if you know what he's gonna do from one minute to the next, which only he seems to know. But all of his explanations for what he is trying to do are completely incoherent and self-contradictory and come back to, well, he's just liked tariffs for a really long time.

Kara Swisher 1:03:34 Anyway, it was a great interview. All of them had different things to add.

Scott Galloway 1:03:37 Just, FYI, just I think Catherine Rampell is a total comer. I think she's gonna be... I think you're gonna hear her name a lot. I think she is exceptionally talented. She had, she had an outstanding moment on that show, I think it was a fucking food fight, um, whatever it's called.

Kara Swisher 1:03:52 CNN, Abby Phillips Show, yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:03:54 Yeah. And when it, whoever the Republican is, was trying to defend-

Kara Swisher 1:03:58 Scott Jennings. It's Scott Jennings.

Scott Galloway 1:03:58 Whoever the Republican is was trying to (laughs) defen- defend-

Kara Swisher 1:04:00 The bad, I call him Bad Scott. He's Bad Scott, you're Good Scott.

Scott Galloway 1:04:03 There we go. He's trying to defend Bannon and he was like, "It was a wave." And Catherine Rampell goes, "Give us that wave. Give us that wave."

Kara Swisher 1:04:10 Yep, yeah. Yeah.

Scott Galloway 1:04:10 And he just sat there like someone who'd just been caught masturbating or defiling gravity.

Kara Swisher 1:04:14 Yeah, defiling gravity, yeah. Anyway, we love her. Um, all right, Scott, that, uh, that's another show. Uh, thanks for listening, uh, to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe o- our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday. Scott, read us out?

Scott Galloway 1:04:28 Today's show was produced by Laura Naiman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin and Kate Gallagher. Ernie Intertot engineered this episode. Jim Mackle edited this video. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Miss Evario and Dan Shalon. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara, have a great rest of the week.