Coronavirus: Gabor Maté on How Your Past Is Affecting Your Present | Feel Better Live More Podcast

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:00 So Gabor, welcome back to the podcast.

Dr. Gabor Maté 0:03 Well, nice to be back. Uh, i-if at a distance.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:07 If at a distance, yeah. Last time we spoke, um, we were face to face, maybe a meter away in a studio in London, and now we are what? Thousands of miles away, looking at each other over a screen, uh, through this amazing thing called technology. I recorded an extra, um, sort of special podcast last weekend with someone called Judson Brewer, who is a psychiatrist and a behavioral neuroscientist, and he was just saying where we talk about the virus and how contagious it is. He said, "What's really interesting about the times in which we live is that we've got social media, we've got the internet, so we can, with the content we put out, we can sneeze on the brains of everyone all over the world." And I thought that was a really interesting analogy how, you know, we talk about the virus being contagious, but our thoughts and our actions and what-- the, the panic and fear that we might put across to the people around us but also online, that can also be contagious as well, can't it?

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:07 Well, um, the, um, director of the World Health Organization talked about an info-infodemic as well as a pandemic, and, um, I, I, I've wondered maybe the same thing that you've wondered, which is that on the one hand, the, the media and the internet has allowed information to be delivered to a lot of people instantaneously as necessary, and it's a good thing. But on the other hand, I also think that the constant engagement with, with the information about the virus has a viral significance of its own, so that the panic and the fear is also spreading virally. So I think that, uh, technology, I think, is showing both its potential for, uh, informational, um, efficiency and at the same time as a s-- as a, as a agent, um, as a carrier of viral fear.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:03 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 2:03 And I think that's happening.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:05 Yeah. I think it is definitely happening. Um,

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:08 Gabor, before we get stuck into the meat of today's conversation, um, the, the conversation you had with me last time on this podcast, it had such a profound impact on people. Uh, I was recently asked on episode hundred of this podcast what was the most impactful conversation I have had so far, and I've got to say it was, it was hard because there were so... there were some great conversations, but I actually said the conversation I had with you probably had the most impact on me personally, um, you know, certainly compared to anything else, I think. And, and I think for people who are not familiar with you and are coming to you for the very first time through this conversation, I think it's worth us just briefly summarizing what we covered last time and what your philosophy is. And, you know, again, I don't want to, um, you know, reduce an hour and forty minute conversation that we had last time down to this, but fundamentally, your belief is, isn't it, that addiction, uh, comes down to our experiences in childhoods? And, you know, when I say addiction, a lot of people think, oh, it's about drug abuse or alcohol abuse, but we're talking about something much broader than that, about how m- how much of society is now addicted, whether it's addicted to Instagram or shopping or sex or drugs or alcohol or whatever it is. Uh, is that a reasonable, very, very brief summary for people who are new to your work?

Dr. Gabor Maté 3:37 Well, that-- no. [chuckles]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:41 Okay.

Dr. Gabor Maté 3:43 And, and, and the reason why not is, is that it's a brief and reasonable summary of an aspect of my work.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:48 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 3:48 But it-- but really, right or wrong, my... and, and I believe right, my work goes much broader than that. I'm saying that not just addiction, uh, whether to sex, drugs, or alcohol or, or substances, but any kind of mental so-called pathology, and not just mental pathology, but much of physical pathology can be traced to childhood experiences and how we cope with those experiences and what those experiences did to our physiology, to the functioning of our genes, and to the functioning of our emotional apparatus, which makes us behave in certain ways that either promote or protect us from illness. So what I'm saying is that a lot of what we physicians see in clinical practice, whether it's physical or mental health issues, can be traced to, um, not exclusively, because genetics always comes into it and other factors, but that it can always be traced to, um, uh, early experiences in life. And not only early experiences in life, but also experiences throughout life, so that really the final message, if I can sum it up as briefly as I possibly can, is that we're not separate phy-physiological organisms. We're part of a much larger whole, which includes the entire family system, multi-generationally, that we're born into, and the culture in which we grow up in and function in. And so that when it comes to individual disease, it is narrow reductionism to biology to think that physi-- illness is only a physiological event in a separate individual when it really manifests an entire life in an entire context, in an entire culture. So really what I'm talking about is the unity of mind and body and the interconnection between the individual and the environment. I think that's the shortest way I can sum it up.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:49 Yeah, for sure. And, and I didn't-- [chuckles] You know, I probably could have phrased it a little bit better, uh, and that that was certainly one of the key aspects we discussed in our previous conversation rather than a summary of your entire work. Uh, and as you know, I'm a huge fan of, um, you know, your, your philosophy, and I think your- At the heart of your philosophy is compassion, and it's a real deep understanding of why people have ended up where they've ended up, why they behave the way, in the way in which they behave. I think we're gonna come into that, 'cause I think compassion is something that is really interesting to, to observe what's happening in society at the moment, when I think we are being quite judgemental. Um, but we'll come to that a little bit later. I think what you just said there about our childhoods, and it, it's really interesting at the moment because many people are, are feeling that this is a very traumatic time for them. And you use the word trauma a lot when talking about, uh, people's lives, and

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:49 I think it's probably worth defining what you mean by trauma right at the start of this conversation.

Dr. Gabor Maté 6:55 Sure. [clears throat] So trauma, I think, is, um, much more widely experienced than the narrow medical definitions would allow for. Trauma is, uh... Really, the word comes from a, a Greek word for wound, so trauma is a wound. So when you think of, metaphorically, of a wound, what happens to it? I mean, it either is raw and painful, and every time you touch it, you experience extreme pain, or you develop scar tissue over it, and the scar tissue is thick and hard, and it doesn't have nerves, so it doesn't feel, but it's also not very flexible, and it does- it has no capacity to grow. So trauma is when there's a deep hurt. So take the present, uh, COVID viral crisis. A lot of people are responding with extreme fear. Now, fear is a natural response to a threat, so there's nothing wrong with that as such, but the fear is not universal, and it's not shared by everyone to the same degree. Now, people that were hurt in childhood and experienced assault on them, they have fear built into their nervous system and into their immune system, really, and into their whole physiology. When something happens later on in life that is, has a fearful connotation, that old fear gets triggered. In other words, a lot of the, the... I'm not talking about the genuine concern and the genuine, the genuine alarm. I'm not con- talking about that. I'm talking about the panic that many people are experiencing. That is the triggering of childhood fear rather than just a response to what's happening in the present. So one of the impacts of trauma, of that wound of trauma, is that when things happen in the present, our response reflects some past experience. That's one of the as- that's one of the aspects of trauma.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:55 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 8:55 The other aspect, the other aspect is we're just not as flexible in our responses. Our, our, our, our responses are more programmed rather than chosen by us consciously.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:06 Yeah. So w- w- with that in mind, um, and given that a lot of trauma happens in childhood, of course, it doesn't exclusively happen in childhood, but it obviously has a, has a significant impact when it does happen in childhoods. At the moment, certainly here in the UK, things have changed dramatically. All schools are closed.

Dr. Gabor Maté 9:27 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:27 Um, all non-essential work has been closed down. People are working from home. Often you have two-parent families working from home, and their kids are in the house at the same time, and there is this kind of, this cauldron now of emotion and stress and anxiety that probably didn't exist, at least not in the same way, just a few weeks back. And I think that's gonna pose and bring up a lot of interesting, uh, feelings, a lot of interesting, um, dynamics in relationships over the coming weeks and months. I think it's already happening.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:03 So if we just dive into childhood for a minute, how can we reduce or minimize the impact that this global pandemic is having on children, both from a perspective of, yes, the virus or, and, and so far it looks as though children are, uh, seem to be minimally affected by the virus, even though they can get it and pass it on very, very quickly without showing any symptoms. But I'm talking about stress-

Dr. Gabor Maté 10:30 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:31 ... and if their parents are stressed around them, and their s- parents are trying to work at home, but the kids are around, and they want to see their parents, and the parents, you know, without realizing it, are starting to put anxiety and stress on their kids. That could have implications for the rest of that child's life. So I don't wanna alarm people, but what I'd love to do is have a conversation with you about what sorts of things should we be watching out for and what can parents do.

Dr. Gabor Maté 10:57 Yeah. Well, I don't know that, um... It's such a broad issue and, and-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:03 Yeah

Dr. Gabor Maté 11:04 ... you know, and it, and it, and it's so collective that I don't know that anything we'll say here will be adequate to the situation. But, but let me just come from my perspective. So first of all, what you said about these emotions, stresses didn't exist a week, a few weeks before. Well, that's one possibility. The other possibility is that we've always carried these emotions and stresses, it's just that we were able to distract ourselves from it. So, so one of the, um... 'Cause let's face it, you know, when I get to travel and s- uh, like I- it so happens that right now I'm at home writing a book, so this is not affecting my work situation. But ordinarily, I'll be traveling and speaking and, and, and teaching and, you know, people will be grateful, and I'd be engaged and so on. Well, that's a great way for me to separate myself from my own, uh, internal distress. In other words, you know, the work itself can be a distraction, and I think that's true a lot of us, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:03 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 12:03 And so is it that those emotions weren't there before, or is it just that now we have no distraction from them? We can't go out and have a drink. We can't, uh, join our friends at the, at the football game. We can't go to the pub. We can't w- w- gather around the water cooler at work or w- whatever, you know? So that's, that's the one thing. And so from that point of view, I think it's an interesting time, and I think it's time for people to notice the emotions that arise for them. And, and to really question, well, okay, I have this emotion. Th- the crisis is new. The, it's a novel virus, and it's a novel situation. Are these emotions really novel, or do I kind of know them from the inside already?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:50 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 12:50 And to speak about myself, I've been saying for some time now that even though I'm not that personally affected because I get to be at home anyway, and I, I can go for walks and go for bicycle rides and so on, but there's a strange feeling in my chest and tummy. It's like there's some- something here that isn't usually there. And just this morning I was thinking, well, is that really new, or does this really go back to my infancy perhaps when there were very strange and threatening times in the world, Second World War, Eastern Europe, Jewish family. And for the book that I'm writing right now, I'm actually just looking at prenatal stresses and how the stress on the mother translates into stress on the infant in the uterus physiologically. And that mothers who are anxious prenatally, their children, their brain structure is different in-- by the time they get to preschool, and their behavior can be affected. So what I'm saying is I think a lot of us are programmed very early, and a lot of what's coming out right now is our early programming, and that's different from the, that's different from the genuine response to an actual challenge that we're truly facing in the world.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:21 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 14:22 So I think it's an opportunity for us to observe what's happening. So instead of telling people what to do, what I'm suggesting here is let's be curious about our reactions. Let's really experience our bodies. Like, if, if, if you feel this tension in your chest, don't distract yourself. Actually pay attention to it and be curious about it, and just sit with it. And if we can sit with our own fear, then we can sit with our children's fear. If we try to push through it and pretend that it isn't there and just offer bland reassurances, but at the same time we're roiled up inside ourselves, our kids can sense that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:04 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 15:04 So I think the best thing we can do for our kids is to take care of ourselves.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:09 Yeah. I mean, just a, as always, just a wonderful answer, and, um, you know, something I've been thinking about a lot recently, and I, I actually, I spoke to Johann Hari yesterday-

Dr. Gabor Maté 15:23 Oh, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:24 ... um, and I was just saying to him that for me it feels as though our system is being stress tested at the moment. So, you know, very similar to what you said in the sense that are these emotions really new or in life... You know, very much like, I don't know, let's say you've got a right hamstring problem, and that only comes up when you run. Well, if you're walking around in your life and you're walking everywhere, you never experience it, so you think everything's fine. But when you start running, you realize-

Dr. Gabor Maté 15:55 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:55 ... "Oh, oh, my hamstring's hurting." It was always there, but the running has, you know, taken you to that threshold now where it's, where it's exposing itself. And, and very much I think it's, it's what you're saying is that, is that these emotions were probably there in all of us, yet I, I love that, um, that whole idea about distraction is something I... It's really something I sit with a lot over the last couple of years. It's, it's thinking, "Why do we do certain behaviors? Why does somebody go to the pub and drink eight to 10 pints of lager or drink a bottle of wine every night? And why does somebody else, for example, you know, scroll Instagram for three or four hours in the evening?" Um, and, and I, I can't get away from the thought that for many of us, whatever we choose, ultimately it's a distraction. It's, it's a distraction from sitting with ourselves and sitting with our own discomfort. And maybe the opportunity now is if you wanna take this opportunity, instead of distracting yourself with the news, endless news cycles on what's going on, which is obviously an easy thing to do, I love what you're saying, sit with it, understand yourself, understand is this a new feeling? And I guess what you're fundamentally talking about, Gabor, is awareness.

Dr. Gabor Maté 17:09 I'm talking about awareness, and we live in a culture globally, um, but certainly in North America and the UK, that's so, so intent on distraction. I mean, you go to a restaurant, there's loud music playing and five TV screens on the wall all showing different programs. What's that all about? It's about distraction rather than just sitting there quietly and being with each other and ourselves. And, um, although we still have the internet, and we still have the cell phones, and we still have the, uh, uh, television set, still the possibility of, of, of distraction have been diminished. Now, I think that for a lot of people, even watching all the news about the virus is a distraction rather than being with how it is for them. 'Cause really, how much time a day do you have to spend reading about the virus to find out what's going on? Five minutes? In five minutes you can get the latest information. Now, when you spend three hours a day or four hours a day or, or, or compulsively, and I've done that myself 'cause I'm not criticizing others by, you know, just reading what does The Guardian say about the virus? What does The New York Times say about it? What does this Canadian newspaper or that? You know, what am I doing? I'm actually distracting myself from just how it is for me. And so that even, even reading about the virus can be a distraction from the feelings that the virus has triggered in us.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:49 Yeah. I- it's interesting that the, the, the system being stress tested at the moment, so, um, you know, a lot of, a lot of people said after our first conversation, and I've seen on other YouTube videos that you've done, you know, "Well, that's great, but how do I deal with the trauma? How do I deal with it?" And obviously that's [laughs] in many ways a, a million dollar question 'cause there are, there are multiple modalities, I think. Certainly from my view, you may have a different perspective that can help us process, uh, trauma once we become aware of it. But in this kind of situation where certainly the volume on everything seems to been turned up to a max, people who already were feeling anxious are feeling more anxious than ever before. People who didn't realize or, or actually thought that they didn't have a problem with anxiety are now feeling anxious. The process of dealing with that trauma can take time. It can take weeks, months, years sometimes. Um, as I've shared before, I, I'm on my own process with that, with, with a system called Internal Family Systems, IFS, which I found incredibly helpful for me in terms of my own personal happiness, my relationship with my wife, my relationship with my children, my ability to be a good or what I hope is a good doctor. Um, that has helped me no end, and I realize now that I can look back on previous behaviors and look at the fact that, oh, you were distracting. You weren't happy. You were doing that to gain external validation, to get whatever it was, uh, because I couldn't sit with what was actually going on inside me. And so in this situation where families are rowing at the moment, you know, couples are spending more time with each other than ever before, you know, I think there's gonna be some relationship, um, issues that are brought to the surface for many people. Um, there is gonna be, you know, with, with children, um, I know this is happening 'cause people have already reached out for help on this saying, "Look, I'm snapping at my children a lot." And I think there's an interesting problem here where if we snap at our children, and they're already scared by this situation, let's say may- maybe they're watching the news, but then if, if the way we can help them is to be present with our own thoughts and, and, and present with our own feelings and, and sit with them, that's a long-term process. And I guess what I'm trying to get at, it-- [laughs] and, and I don't, I don't think there are some simple tips, but I'm wondering if a parent in that, in that moment is feeling like, "Why are the kids not letting me work? You know, I've got all this work to do," and they wanna snap. What-- Is there something they can do? Is it like taking a step, having a deep breath, you know, going outside and then... Or is it, is it simply explaining to the kids, "Hey guys, look, I'm really stressed at the moment. I know you guys just wanna talk to me, but I'm feeling really, really stressed. Can I have five, 10 minutes to myself?" I mean, I don't know. Have you got any practical guidance in the moment?

Dr. Gabor Maté 21:54 Well, before I get to that, there are two things. One is I'm just struck here we are, um, you trained as a, as an internal medicine specialist or as a specialist-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:02 Yeah, internal medicine initially, and then I moved to family medicine. Um-

Dr. Gabor Maté 22:06 I know. So I remember that. Um, so between all the years of training and practice that, you know, I've had three-- over three decades of medical practice and all the three years of training between you and I, which is nothing in our pr- training prepared us for this, did it?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:24 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 22:24 I, I... And so, so here we, here we are having this conversation trying to come up with some wisdom for people. I'm just telling people, all the people that are listening to us, Rangan and I, we weren't trained in this.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:34 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 22:35 No, nothing. I mean, our experience, we can bring, bring to bear the experience and whatever wisdom we may have gleaned from that, but nothing in our training prepared us for this. This is just bigger than all of us. That's the first point. But the second point is, I'm struck by your phrase about how the system is being, we're being stress tested. Now, that, that has a specific, uh, um, connotation in, in, in, in, in medical, um, language. You, you put somebody who's, you suspect has heart disease or you wanna rule out that they don't, and you push them through a stress cardiogram. You put them on a treadmill, and you have them run, and you do a cardiogram. How does the heart respond to the extra oxygen demand that you bring on? Well, that's what's happening to all of us, people. I liked your phrase about that. We're being tested now to see about our emotional oxygen supply.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:28 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 23:28 And so, and so when we're at home snapping at our kids or, or, or, or being tense with ourselves or whatever happens with our spouses, this is the stress test. And, and the, the, the, the stress cardiogram, cardiogram will reveal or just walk you, to go back to your analogy of the hamstring, um, the stress cardiogram will reveal the real state of your heart, whereas just lying in bed will not.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:58 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 24:00 Uh, or walking even slowly in the street will not, you know, unless you've got really severe heart disease. So yes, I really like that way of putting it, that, that the system is being stressed, stress tested, and not just on individual, but also on a social level. Now, I haven't answered your question. I, I know it's easier for me to theorize than just to answer your question about what, what actually to do. But yes, I think awareness, as you said, and if, if I notice that tension in me, that's a-- I don't believe in timeouts in parenting in terms of punitive timeouts, but I certainly believe in a parent taking a timeout and saying, "You know, I just noticed how tense I am. I need to go on a balcony and take a few breaths, or I need to sit and, and just think, or I just need to listen to a piece of music right now to calm my autonomic nervous system." You know? So in other words, do something that we ordinarily don't do, n-most of us in our lives, which is to allow ourselves to have our upset emotions and give them some space without acting them out on the people that are close to us. So take that time and, and, and do check in, and don't be ashamed to acknowledge your vulnerability and your upset, but don't make it your k- don't make it your child's problem.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:26 Yeah. I mean, look, uh, we're recording this at six PM UK time, so, um, you know, just to, to share an experience that just happened with me, like I've... You know, I'm a pretty optimistic guy. Um, generally speaking, I always think things are gonna be okay, and I, on a personal level, um, you know, I'm not getting too panicky or anxious about what's going on in the world at the moment. Uh, I think I would have done in the past, but at the moment I'm not. For whatever reason, I'm not. But what I am doing, and I'm al- I'm super aware that if I, as I, um, express what's been going on with me, I-I've no doubt that you may, you may dissect it out for me shortly and tell me what I really mean by it, [laughs] um, in a, in a good way. But I have been putting a little bit of pressure on myself to communicate regularly with my, uh, followers, um, in public. I was on BBC News two or three times last week, on the radio a few times, and I really felt that at this moment when people are really feeling scared, I really wanted to go on and actually try and be a voice of calm and reason and sha-share some positivity. I've also put a lot of pressure on myself to put out lots of information on social media to try and help people, more podcasts to help people. And I realized today I wasn't feeling great just a few hours ago. I was feeling... I actually said to my wife, I said, "Hey, babe, you know what? I, I think, I think I just need to chill out a little bit and actually just forget about doing all that for, for half a day or, or one day. It doesn't matter, you know, I need to just, just be aware that this-- I don't need to put this much pressure on myself." Anyway, the point I was trying to get to is that my kids are at home at the moment, and, you know, at about five o'clock, you know, 'cause I'd been working most of the day, they're like, "Oh, Daddy, Daddy, can we play outside?" And instead of snapping at them 'cause I thought, "I've gotta check the Skype connection's working. I've gotta check my microphones," all this kind of stuff, I just said, "Hey, darling, listen, I would love to play with you at the moment-

Dr. Gabor Maté 27:27 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:27 ... but you know I've got this podcast I've been really looking forward to doing with Gabor Maté, and what I, you know-

Dr. Gabor Maté 27:34 And said, "Gabor Maté? Whoa. Hey, Dad, go ahead. That's fantastic."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:36 Well, he did actually. But I don't know what I was gonna say there, but he did actually say that. [laughs] But, um, I just explained it to him. I said, "Look, but I tell you what, if you fancy a game of table tennis for five to ten minutes, that's gonna really help Daddy unwind a little bit, because I've been feeling quite tense. So if you wanna do that, that would be great." And you know what?

Dr. Gabor Maté 27:55 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:55 I've realized, and that's just one incident, but I've found that when I explain things to, to the kids, and my son's nine-

Dr. Gabor Maté 28:01 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:01 ... but I do this with my daughter who's seven as well.

Dr. Gabor Maté 28:03 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:03 That is something I don't think I used to do five, six years ago. That's something I've learnt.

Dr. Gabor Maté 28:08 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:08 Of course, my wife has been incredible here, because she's always wanting to explain things and explain feelings to the, to the kids, and I think I very much learnt from her there. But you know what? They get it, and they're like, "Yeah, okay, Daddy, cool. I get it." And it's, it's-- I'm sharing that because, A, I want to, but, B, maybe that's gonna be of use to someone listening to this when they're in that situation. I would just be honest with your kids, 'cause I think a lot of the time they prefer that than just you snapping at them and saying, uh... Or, or, not you, I'm not trying to judge anyone else. I'm saying me then snapping and being, "No, no, no, you know, I still haven't got time." I, I think we're gonna have very two different, two very different outcomes depending on how you interact with your kids in, in those moments.

Dr. Gabor Maté 28:49 Well, I, I think you shared a beautiful example. First of all, you didn't make the kid wrong for wanting to be with you or leave me alone. I got work to do. You said, "I'd love to spend time with you. It's just such and such is happening." And then you actually explained what it was like for you. And not only that, you offered them a possibility of actually, um, um, helping you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:13 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 29:14 Now, it's not that we should expect our kids to help us, but kids want responsibility, and when they're able to handle it, hey, if playing a game with you would help you calm down, isn't that great?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:25 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 29:25 I'm, I must be a very important person, you know? So I mean, that, that's great. Um, going back before then, I'm sure that if you've done Dick Schwartz's, uh, internal family systems work, you can realize that-that-that-that when you say you put pressure on yourself, you'd probably say a part of you was putting pressure on you, and, and, and, and, and at some point you might want to, um, if, if, if you haven't already, inquire about that part. Well, why is that part pressuring me? And, and I'm sure you're gonna find out. I don't have to tell you, do I? Well, I mean, have you done that inquiry?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:02 I've, I've been sitting with that. Like I've, I've not got to the bottom of it, but I've t- I've certainly observed that, and I've been, you know, writing a few thoughts out and thinking, "Where is that coming from?" And I'm sort of, which part of that is me? And I have a... Again, I think I need to spend a f- a bit more time sitting with my thoughts and not distracting myself with work and trying to help others when actually maybe it's time to sort of spend a bit more time helping myself. But, you know, I think I've got a pretty good idea of where this might come from in my early childhood in terms of what I perceived Was important for me to do. Um, so I, yeah, I would love to spend a bit more time there. But yes, I agree. It is a part of me. It's not really me, is it? It's a part of me

Dr. Gabor Maté 30:47 Yeah. Uh, so, so, um, a couple of things. One is, um, I think a lot of us that go into medicine, we have this, mm, messianic mission to save the world, you know? Um, now that's different from a conscious decision to help people.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:07 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 31:08 So I'm not talking about, yes, we're here to help people, and it's a sacred task that we take on, but, but the pressure behind it sometimes that I gotta save the world, and if, and if I'm not doing enough, then I'm not enough. That's childhood trauma. So in my case, I mean, I can p- pretty much guess what it was in your case, but in my case it was having a very unhappy, depressed mother when I was very, very young, and it was my job to make her feel better. And, and, and, and if I didn't, I was, I was not fulfilling my task, you know? So that, that pressure always comes from some childhood programming, number one. Number two, I'm glad that you listened to your body, um, 'cause you know, you know in my book, When the body says no-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:54 Yeah

Dr. Gabor Maté 31:54 ... l- literally this is an example of it. Your body started saying, "No. No, this is too much." And then you start go-- So I think people need to listen to their bodies. Really what you're describing here is, um, uh, somebody who from childhood programming puts pressure on themselves. No. The pressure you put on yourself, that's different from your genuine desire to communicate. That's different from your genuine desire to be there for people. It's, it's, it's, it's different from your genuine assumption of responsibility 'cause you created, uh, yourself as a healer, not just in the clinical individual sense, but also in a larger sense. And so people look to you, and so you... That's a natural process, and it's good. That's got nothing to do with pressure.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:43 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 32:44 That's just a choice you make. I'm gonna choose this. I'm not gonna choose this. I'll do this much. I won't do that. The pressure is always from childhood. So what you're describing here is just what we're talking about, about trauma, is that there's something, some part of you that still believes that in order to validate your existence, you gotta put pressure on yourself to do more than your body can bear. And you recognize that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:09 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 33:10 That's really what we're asking people to do, is to just be aware of themselves.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:15 For people who heard that and thought, "Okay, I now am thinking about certain situations. I can feel things," you know. Like for me, when I'm feeling that pressure, I get it in my upper right back. I, I know exactly where it is, and it, for me, it's become, as I've become aware, it's become my... It's like a warning signal for me. It's like, "Ah, you know, there it is. Okay, what's going on? What's going on in life? Okay, cool. You, you're putting... You, too much is going on," blahdy, blahdy, blah. You know, it's, it's, I think awareness is always key 'cause many people I think are walking around oblivious to what the s- what signs their body is, what, what signals their body is giving to them. They're just sort of medicating it or drinking their way through or distracting their way to the point where they don't feel it. But you know, you mentioned before you feel something, you felt something before this kind of, was it an uneasy feeling in your chest or abdomen, I think you said?

Dr. Gabor Maté 34:09 Mostly the chest, yeah. The upper chest.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:11 And, and for someone who's thinking, "Okay, I can do that," what should they then do? Like, there's a, there's awareness, there's observing it, and then it, is there something they can do after that, or is it, is the main thing just to sit with it and be aware?

Dr. Gabor Maté 34:25 Well, um, turn that question around. If your child was feeling anxious, what would you do?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:40 You would, you know, you'd, you'd, you'd ask, ask them what's going on. You would say, you'd talk softly. You'd treat them with compassion. You'd say, "Hey, look, you know, w- what are you feeling anxious about?" So it's, um, you'd try and help them, wouldn't you?

Dr. Gabor Maté 34:58 Yes, and all that's based on, first of all, just being with them, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:01 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 35:02 You wouldn't, you wouldn't ignore them. You wouldn't just get on with your life-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:07 Yeah

Dr. Gabor Maté 35:07 ... and, and, and, and okay, never mind. You're anxious, but I'm not going, you know, 'cause... So it's that attention, I think that's the biggest part of it. And then the attention plays out in the ways that you just described. You know, what's happening? What are you feeling anxious about? But you'd hold them, you'd be with them, you'd accompany them. It's the, it's your presence. It's your capacity to be present with them. That's the soothing influence on a child.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:36 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 35:36 And then what you say is actually secondary, you know? What you would not do is talk them out of it, ignore them, make them wrong for it, um, give them advice that they didn't ask for, you know. Um, so just attending I think is really the answer itself because when you, once you attend, and, and, and, and, and if you can attend to yourself, I mean, I, I teach this method called compassionate inquiry, and, and if you can just bring that compassion to yourself, "Oh, you got this feeling here. Okay. Well, let's just sit with it. Let's just notice it. Let's just allow it. Let's not say there's anything wrong with you. Let's not, um, try and talk you out of it. Let's not ignore it." I believe that that process... And, and, and then, okay, is this a familiar feeling? Have I experienced this before? Oh, yeah. Let's understand, you know. Um, that attention, I think that's the, that's the healing part and, and, or the healing process. And you might have to do that three or four times a day. As you would with your child. Doesn't take a long time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:50 Yeah. If--

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:52 The, the big feeling that's coming up for me as we're having this conversation is that for some of us, could this global situation, for all the, you know, for all the, the problems that, that, that are there with it, and, and of course there's gonna be, um, you know, th-th-rightfully people are concerned over the people who are gonna get sick. Um, and, and, um, neither one of us are trying to minimize that, but just, just trying to look at the other side for a minute. For some of us, could this be the biggest opportunity for growth that we have ever lived through? You know, many of us have not stress tested the system. Certainly, you know, I'm, uh, in my early forties, I don't recall a time like this ever. Um, I, I actually-- Before the, the strict self-isolation rules came in in the UK, about a week and a half ago, I went round to my, um, elderly neighbor who's ninety-one, who I hadn't really seen for about six weeks, and I, I thought, "Well, you should really just go and check that she's okay." Her kids don't live nearby. She's by herself. There's all this kind of isolation. So I went round, um, I nipped in, checked everything was okay, and I said to her, "Hey, look, does any part of this remind you of the war?" Uh-

Dr. Gabor Maté 38:07 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:07 ... the Second World War? And she said, "No, not at all." I said, "Really?" She goes, "Yeah. Then for me..." Sh- this is what she said to me. She said, "Then we had this sort of common enemy. We all came together. We congregate. We did things together. This feels like it's invisible, and I don't know where the enemy is."

Dr. Gabor Maté 38:24 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:24 And I found that really, really interesting a-as an idea that, you know, coming full circle to what I was saying, it's this idea that we've never experienced anything like this before, so if we look and if we pay attention, we could maybe discover things about ourselves that we've never had the opportunity to observe in the past.

Dr. Gabor Maté 38:47 You know, I was thinking about just before you talked about the war, that's exactly the question that was coming up in my mind. [clears throat] And to go back to that person you, you mentioned, not only is the enemy invisible, your compassionate and, and, and, and, and giving next door neighbor who's bringing you your groceries might be carrying the enemy into your porch, you know? So it's really weird. Is, is-- In that sense, this is, this is something new, isn't it? Um, it may be too early to talk about what we need to learn here or what some of the lessons are, but I mean, th-th-I, I, I can't help. I mean, th-I, I think systemically, and plus I'm writing a new book about-- My new book is The Myth of Normal: Illness and Health in an Insane Culture. That's the book I'm working on right now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:37 Wow.

Dr. Gabor Maté 39:37 And so, so I'm looking at the large cultural pictures. So you're speaking to me from the UK. Well, there's some questions that at some point will need to be asked, and maybe it's-- now is not the time just yet, but it-- they occur to me. To what degree does the, the cutbacks in the natural-- in the National Health Service have, ha-ha-have they impaired your country's capacity to respond to the current crisis?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:07 Mm.

Dr. Gabor Maté 40:07 And there's already been some questions and articles about that in the British press. I've, I've seen that. To what degree does, um, a society with huge, um, divergences, uh, uh, of wealth and power, high levels of inequality, and we know from Sir Michael Marmot and other British researchers, the health impacts of, of, of, of, of inequality. And of course, it's the people that with underlying health conditions who are most prone to fall victim to this disease. Well, that's not just a part of the vir-- That's not just a viral effect. That's also a social effect. So I won't say more about that now, except to mention that your question about what can we learn here is applicable not just at an individual level, but also on a social level. And I think it's very important that when we've dealt with the acute crisis, that those conversations really begin in earnest and very, very deeply.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:04 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 41:05 On the individual level, I think we're-- Well, I think certain things are becoming clear. One is, um, as I said in another conversation recently, isn't this just clarifying what our values really are, what's really important in life?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:19 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 41:20 How much of what we were engaged in and thought was essential four weeks ago seems relatively trivial now compared to how we feel about ourselves, how we feel about each other, what communality that we have, how much solidarity we can experience and generate or receive, uh, how much love and compassion we can experience for ourselves and others? Aren't just-- Aren't these just the most important things? And doesn't it just warm your heart when you see these, uh, videos from Italy with people serenading each other from their rooftops and their balconies, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:58 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 42:00 Um, so, so I, I, I think that's already emerging, is what's, what's really important to us. The other thing that's emerging is, which goes along with the entire conversation that we've been having, is what are our internal resources that we can contact to get her through this? I mean, this really is, uh, a training in a certain sense. It's like heavy lifting. Heavy lifting makes your muscles stronger if you don't strain yourself too much. And, and, and so what internal resources can we muster, look to, and find, um, to help us deal with this current, um, threat to our well-being as, as individuals and as a society? So I think there's powerful teachings here. We might be too close to it yet to know what the teachings will be, but we can do what you're doing already, which is to look upon this as a learning opportunity.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:55 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 42:56 And, and, and, and, and, and as we go through it, keep reminding ourselves, keep asking ourselves, um, "Okay, what is here to be learned? What is here to be learned? What can I learn today?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:07 Yeah. You mentioned inequality, and, you know, we know all around the world, but certainly here in the UK that, you know, depending on which postcode you live in, your health, uh, outcome, your, your, your lifespan could be up to 10 years lower, and it's to do with income and poverty and all kinds of other factors which are probably the biggest determinant of health actually. Um, and it, it's interesting for me that when we talk about equality and inequality in that context, we can also look at it in a global context in the sense that we've been so individualistic as a society. On an indi- individual level, it's all about me, you know, can I earn what I need to earn and actually buy the house and get the job that I want irrespective of what's going on around me. Countries have been doing that. We need to make sure we're the strongest, and we've got our everything in order. But hold on a minute. Now we've got this global problem. It doesn't really matter whether you're a rich country or a poor country in the sense that that virus can still come and penetrate in, and therefore it's like, well, is it possible for us to be individually well, whether you talk about a, a person or a country, if all around us is unwell? And I don't think it is.

Dr. Gabor Maté 44:25 Well, and that's another big lesson here, isn't it? Because we live our lives, as you say, as if we could just avert our eyes from what's happening in the rest of the world. But if we're honest about it, and I me- I've said this before, what if all of a sudden I told you that there's a preventable illness that kills eight hundred thousand people in Europe every year, tens of thousands in the UK, uh, fifteen thousand here in Canada, eight million around the world. If I told you that, that such a preventable disease, you'd say, "Well, yeah, what is it, and how... If, if it's preventable, why don't we prevent it?" Well, there is such a disease. It's called air pollution. Air pollution kills that many people every year. The numbers that the coronavirus has claimed so far is nowhere, I mean, uh, nowhere near that. Now, which is not to say to minimize the, the viral threat, but it's to say that we do live our lives most of the time oblivious to reality. And, and this virus is making-- waking us up to the fact that we all live in the same world, and what happens in one country affects what happens in another country. Now we're aware of that, but that's true all the time. So that-- So, so, so perhaps we can come out of this with more awareness of that generally, not just at these, um, uh, sudden catastrophes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:50 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 45:50 Uh, that's the first point. The second point is that, uh, all around the world there are many areas where there's illnesses that are rampant because of poverty, because of, um, lack of health services, and lack of proper food and so on, that claim many, many, many lives. It's just that here in the West we're shielded from that, so we don't have to, uh, make ourselves aware. And then there's a third level and which, which is to me we're, we're getting into the realms of evil. Um, there are places in the world where illness is imposed because of war and intervention and occupation and, and, and exploitation. Um, I'm thinking of a place like Gaza, which I've visited. And I'm not gonna make a big political statement here except to say that in that small area, there's all those hundreds of thousands of people cramped together, and because of the political situation and the, and the, and the blockade, which is largely supported by the West, um, only five percent of the water is potable. Could we at least in these times lift those sanctions on those countries? Could we at least in these times not lift the sanctions on Iran, which is make it-- makes it hard for them to import medical equipment?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:13 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 47:14 Um, in other words, could we be just com-- at least, you know, the, the... I think the UN, some UN, maybe the G- the director general of the UN or the secretary general called for an international ceasefire in areas of conflict. Let's just, till this virus is over, let's just not sh- not shoot each other. But what if we called an international moratorium on anything that makes people suffer, that, that we're doing that makes other people suffer? So, so what... Ju-just, you know, we can go back to your politics later if you want to, but just now could we get-- come together as a human race and, and, and, and, and, and just be kind? So yeah, these are big questions, and I think the, the virus is impelling us to ask these questions and, and, and to remember these questions when the virus is gone.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:11 That's the key, isn't it? Let's remember this-

Dr. Gabor Maté 48:14 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:14 ... when we're through the acute phase of this. And one thing I'm doing myself, and I'm asking a lot of people to do who ask me for advice is just write down a few of your thoughts every day, like little things that you're now appreciative of and grateful for. Uh, I did a post yesterday on my social media channels about five things that came at the top of my head that I just have maybe taken for granted in the past but really, really value now. You know, going to a cafe to meet up with a friend.

Dr. Gabor Maté 48:41 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:41 Like now that I can't do it, I'm like, "Oh God-

Dr. Gabor Maté 48:43 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:43 ... wouldn't that be amazing?" Or I do something called park run on Saturdays, um, where you congregate in your local community and hundreds of you run together. I think, wow-

Dr. Gabor Maté 48:52 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:52 ... I can't... Just the ability to go and do that will be phenomenal. My, my, my elderly mother lives nearby-

Dr. Gabor Maté 48:58 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:58 ... but she's meant to be self-isolating for twelve weeks. So just to give my seventy-nine-year-old mum a hug Like the small things that were available to me three weeks ago that I probably took for granted. And I think if we make a, like a journal every day and write these things down. When this is all gone-

Dr. Gabor Maté 49:15 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:15 ... when it's all over, we can look back and reflect and go, you know, is it, maybe that was something we should all try and do is write our own journal throughout this. It's a way of-

Dr. Gabor Maté 49:23 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:23 ... sitting with ourself, understanding ourself, and also it's a way of not forgetting when it's all over.

Dr. Gabor Maté 49:30 Was it Samuel Pepys that wrote the journal of the plague years? I think so. Well-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:34 I think it was, yeah

Dr. Gabor Maté 49:35 ... it's a good idea. Why don't we all keep a journal of the plague days, you know? Or maybe plague weeks or for, God forbid, plague months, although it looks like it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:45 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 49:45 Yeah, that's a great idea.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:46 And, you know, I, I hope someone who's listening to this, a few people think, "Yeah, that might be a good idea to do." Um,

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:52 Gabor, you, you, you mentioned, like, let's be kind to, to one another. Let's at least now let's lift sanctions and just do the right thing. And one thing that I've always been... Well, I've always talked about it as something that I think is the most important skill for any human being, but also certainly any healthcare professional, is compassion, is ability to connect and really non-judgmentally look at that person in front of you. And it's really interesting to observe what's happening at the moment when it comes to compassion. So you can, you know, there's people out there who, um, you know, let's say people who are not practicing social distancing, who are, you know, refusing to follow what the government have asked people to do, and are getting together and congregating with their friends. Or people who are perceived to be panic buying, and therefore the supermarket shelves are now empty. It's really interesting that we can be quite judgemental about those other people who are behaving in that way. Um, and I, and it... Something I've, I've mentioned recently is that, you know, I, I think about, I've thought about panic buying a lot recently and this idea that are people really panic buying? I'm sure some people are, but most people are probably just buying a little bit more than they would've done in the past.

Dr. Gabor Maté 51:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:14 And therefore, when they go to the shelf, the shelf's full, and the first person buys a little bit more, the second person buys a little bit more, then at some point there's gonna be someone who empties that shelf. But all they were doing was buying a little bit more than they would normally do. And then someone will post a photo of that on social media and go, "God, who are these people who are panic buying? They should be ashamed of themselves." And I'm thinking, I, I'm not criticizing people for saying that. I'm just observing that, you know, this situation, I think, has brought out the best in humanity, but also sort of, it's also exposing the worst as well, uh, as any stress test would do. And is this... I, I'm interested in your observations on the judgment that we can have on other people, particularly at times like this.

Dr. Gabor Maté 52:03 Well, it's great to speak with you 'cause every time you speak, my mind just starts generating b- thought bubbles start arising under the surface of my mind. Um, first thing, here in Vancouver, there was a couple who g- go around cleaning out all the shelves of ma- major stores of cleaning, of cleaning fluid or cleaning wipes. Then they sell them. Make a profit. You know, you think, "Who would do that?" You know? Um, no- now there's two, there's two way of asking, there's two ways of asking who would do that. One is who would do that, as a judgment, or curiosity. Oh, well, who actually would do that?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:48 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 52:49 And how insecure they must actually feel in the world, and, and how much they, they must be cut off from their own c- communal sense of humanity. So what happened to them? These people that congregate and they ignore the recommendations, where did they learn to distrust authority so much? Usually that's a, that can be a trauma response as well. Like when, when, when, when, when early... There's a whole lot of ways to respond to trauma. But one way to respond is, "I'm never gonna trust authority again. I'm just gonna do whatever I want."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:21 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 53:22 "B- because the authority that I did trust in when I was an infant really let me down."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:28 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 53:29 So if, if, so r- so even we can look at these people compassionately as well. And the other thing that came up for me is that there's such thing, there's such thing as healthy shame. So in writing my new book, I've been looking at Aboriginal societies, and in, and, and, and, and, in, in, in what we call so-called primitive societies, um, which is how we actually evolved, in small band hunter-gatherer groups, and we lived that way for millions and hundreds of thousands of years. That was our evolutionary niche. When you look at them, those societies that still carry those vestiges or those ways of life today, fewer and fewer, individual accumulation is seen as a weakness, as some kind of an illness. And if somebody, uh, uh, you know, uh, they go hunting, and some young guy shoots his, does his first kill, you know, everybody criticizes him, and they, they, they, they ritually, uh, will make s- small of it. Why? 'Cause they don't want anybody to get a big head.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:34 Right.

Dr. Gabor Maté 54:35 They wanna say, "Okay, you're doing this for the community." You know, it's, it's, it's not malicious. It, but they, but, but it's not about individual achievement and then, and individual accumulation. The wealth for them actually lies in communality, so that in a lot of these cultures, including here in the west coast of Canada, big celebrations would involve people giving away their wealth to others.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:58 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 54:59 And real wealth was in how other people regarded you and how you connected with them. So, um- This crisis again shows how far we've come away from our roots.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:14 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 55:15 And, and, and when you think of yourself or, or, or, or, or think of ourselves, when do we feel best? When we have gathered something to ourselves or when we've given it? You know? And most people will say, "I feel so much better about myself, so much more peace, so much more joy when I'm doing for... when I'm giving." Not compulsively, but out of free choice.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:41 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 55:41 But that goes contrary to the way we're programmed in this society. So again, this, this, to go back to our theme of learning, this, this, this, this viral crisis is really maybe teaching us something about our, our true human nature.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:56 Yeah. Are you and your wife dealing with this in different ways?

Dr. Gabor Maté 56:04 Um, well, we do go for a walk every day.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:09 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 56:10 Or just gonna... I don't know if I share. Um, I'm spending much of my time at my computer writing my book. My wife's an artist, so she draws a lot. She paints. She's not painting, she's drawing a lot these days. But she's also doing chris- uh, uh, crossword puzzles.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:26 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 56:26 She just found a, a great way to just relax.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:31 I guess the-

Dr. Gabor Maté 56:31 She's doing, she's doing what she needs to. But, but if you're asking me, are we dealing with it emotionally differently? [sighs] Um.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:46 And I guess, let me just clarify. The point of my question wasn't really to inquire, um, about you and her individually. It was also more really the broader question, do you feel and do you see that men and women, of course, there's gonna be huge individual differences within that, but broadly speaking, do... can we say that men and women tend to deal with these things in different ways? Are there some broad stro- strokes that we can, we can explain that with?

Dr. Gabor Maté 57:15 Hmm. Well, there's a lot of work that's been done on the different emotional styles of, emotional coping styles of men and women. And, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:22 Yeah

Dr. Gabor Maté 57:23 ... um, women tend to be more in touch with their emotions in general. Um, they tend to come more from the right side of their brain, which is more holistic and, and, and, and, and inclusive. Um, whereas men tend to move towards the left side, which is more, uh... This is, this is not exclusive, and it's not-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:44 Sure

Dr. Gabor Maté 57:45 ... gender-based, but in general, um, more, um, going to explanations and intellectual formulations and so on. Uh, as to how that's showing up right now in the current viral situation, that'd be an interesting study, won't it?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:01 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 58:02 To, to, to look back later on and say, "Well, how did men and women differentially, if there was a differential, how did they differentially deal with what's going on?" I don't know that I have an answer to that right now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:14 I think another thing that would be really interesting to look at at some point in the future when the dust has settled is, you know, and, and it's that, it's that, it's that sort of slight seesaw that I was mentioning to you before, this idea that, okay, all these measures that are being taken, these kind of frankly never been seen before measures by countries all around the world are to limit the spread of the virus. So we're asking people to isolate. Well, certainly physically isolate themselves from each other, not go about their everyday lives, not congregate with other human beings as social beings. You know, in the UK at the moment, we're being told we can go outside once a day to take exercise in the form of a walk, cycle, or run. And we can also go to the shops once a week, or we're being encouraged to. I mean, this is pretty restrictive compared to what normal life used to feel like. Um, but what I'm interested in is, are we gonna look back and... or, or it would be interesting to look back at some point in the future for all the lives we may hopefully save from, uh, getting, you know, severely affected by the virus, then needing intensive care, and all this kind of stuff. On the flip side, w- what sort of damage are we potentially gonna do to society with this isolation, with this anxiety? Um, because I feel, and I, I so hope I'm wrong on this, but I, I, I imagine that we may well see in a few months, you know, a, a litany of, um, mental health issues and anxiety and depression and all kinds of things on the back of this. And then it's that whole acute versus chronic piece that we're not taking these chronic things like air pollution and mental health and all these things which kill millions of people each year, seriously, but we are with the virus. And I think there's a really interesting thought experiment there is that, you know, will it have been worth it? I don't mean to sound, um, you know, I'm very conscious, I'm very... don't mean to sound as though I, I, I think we should be taking the measures to protect life, right? So I'm not saying we shouldn't be, but will we look back and go, what, you know, was there an unexpected consequence of doing that?

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:00:34 Well, I, I've had the same question come up in my mind. Um, let me tell you a quick story. Just before you called me, a friend of mine called me, uh, another retired physician. She on... She goes on her bicycle, and she delivers what's called Wheels on Meals. Uh, uh, Meals on Wheels. So they, they take food to... It's a program here in Vancouver. They take food to shut-ins and old people and so on. And, uh, my friend Elaine, who was delivering the food, um, there's an elderly Hungarian lady who is among her clients, and, uh, they don't share a language at all. The woman does not speak English at all, and Elaine speaks no Hungarian. And, uh- She called me just now, just before you called me. Uh, because the woman wants her to come closer like she usually does, but Elaine won't.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:25 Uh-huh.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:01:25 But Elaine... But, but because of the language barrier, Elaine couldn't explain why I can't come close to you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:30 [laughs]

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:01:30 And the woman's getting more and more upset.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:32 Oh.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:01:32 So she finally called me and said, "Would you talk to her in Hungarian and explain?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:36 [laughs]

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:01:37 And, and I did, and this woman had never heard of the, of the pandemic-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:42 Wow

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:01:43 ... because she speaks no English. And so the media, elderly woman, the, the English language media, which is what happens here, means nothing to her. She was unaware. And so imagine the, the bewilderment. All of a sudden the world changes, and then even this person who brings her her food won't come near her, you know? So that's... It's hitting a lot of people. Now, the question that you're asking, I think we're too close to it right now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:12 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:02:12 But it's occur- it's occurred to me as well. At what point do we decide that the social disruption and economic disruption and the anxiety, um, well, is more than we can bear, and that... H- how do you make the decision as to what's more important, saving lives now or a functioning society in the long term? And, um, I, I even hesitate to raise the question 'cause I, I, just like you, I, I'm cautious not to undermine any- anybody's, um, uh, commitment to, to, to participate fully in exact... a- and, and to follow the directions and advice of the authorities. I think this is a time where we just have to really do that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:06 Yeah. So do I. And I, and I wanna, you know, just re-echo what you just said. That it was really just a thought experiment rather than we should do things differently. Um-

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:03:16 Well, exactly, and I've had the same thought. And I think that'll be one of those long-term questions that once we're looking back in retrospect, we'll be able to engage with and maybe learn from.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:25 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:03:26 But it's important.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:26 But I'm, I'm, I, I'm certainly an optimist in the sense that I think, I really hope that we have been given such a jolt, and we're-

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:03:35 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:35 ... so many of us are starting to appreciate the little things in life that frankly most of us, if not all of us, certainly many of us, took for granted in the past. If we could hold onto that, there could be something really beautiful on the other side of this, potentially for society. I, I certainly hope that's gonna happen. I, I'm an optimist. Uh, I always have been. Are you an optimist?

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:03:59 Well, um, h- human beings have tremendous capacity for transformation and depth and, and spiritual and emotional growth. They also have tremendous capacity for denial and forgetting and, and, and, and, and distracting and, and going back to business as usual. I don't know how it's gonna play out.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:18 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:04:19 Um, I think it'll play out in both ways, uh, throughout society. Certainly on an individual level. I think on an individual level, there'll be a lot of people that will have learnt a lot of valuable lessons here about what, what's important. On a social level, I don't know. Uh, in fact, I'm rather pessimistic, at least in the short term. Look, in Britain, if I remember correctly, there's one study that I read that I collected for my new book. Something like 10,000 people have died because of austerity-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:54 Yeah

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:04:54 ... in Britain. Would that be a startling statistic to you, or is that something that fits in with your awareness?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:00 No, certainly I've, I've come across very similar statistics to that. I must say I haven't dug deep into them, so I, I don't know w- on what that is based.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:05:07 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:07 But I certainly have heard that, for sure.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:05:10 Yeah, so that's one, one piece of information that's resting on my computer somewhere. But we seem quite content to allow that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:20 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:05:22 A- and, and to, um, and, and, and to persist in it. And that's a lot of people dying. A lot more people than I hope will die in Britain of this particular disease. So will this teach us when other catastrophes have not? Um, I don't know. And, a- and that, that begins... that comes to a whole social issue of, uh, of it's, you know, there's a social structure and there's a, there's a, there's, there's, there's a power structure, uh, that, that is invested in being things, in things being the way they have been.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:00 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:06:01 I don't know that that's gonna change. And the question is, will people demand a change or are we gonna just be so grateful and happy and joyful to go back to our lives that we'll forget about these larger questions?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:12 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:06:13 I, I rather think in the short term that's more likely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:18 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:06:18 I think.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:19 It's a great point, and you know, the... We've, we've got things like, um, Bill Gates' TED Talk from 2015 where he's-

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:06:27 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:27 ... he, he sort of said this was going to happen. Uh, other people have so, have done that. There's someone called Devi Sridhar, who I'm hopefully talking to soon, who's professor of global health at, um, at University of Edinburgh, who's well worth following for people on Twitter at the moment in terms of her thoughts on the pandemic and how we're dealing with it. It's really, really interesting that a lot of people had been predicting this, yet a lot of us, a lot of certainly the UK, didn't spend the millions, probably the billions, that were gonna be necessary to be adequately equipped to deal with it. Whereas now, we're gonna have to spend trillions [laughs] on the economic, uh, implications of it. So even with that knowledge, we weren't prepared to spend... It's like that prevention versus cure piece, right? We, we knew. Well, the scientists knew, but we still didn't do anything about it, and now we're gonna be paying way, way more on the back end. Trying to fix something that potentially could have been, uh, sorted at the front end

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:07:27 And the other, the other... Yes, and the other big, big question that brings up, big question that brings up is, [clears throat] is there something about our way of life and the way we relate to nature and the Earth that somehow potentiates this kind of a crisis? And I've, I, I've already seen those arguments being made-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:44 Yeah

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:07:44 ... or those questions being raised. That's another huge, uh, inquiry I think that would need to be held w- with whatever result, but I think we need to look at it. And so the real question again is, are we gonna remember the big questions when this is over?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:59 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:07:59 And, and, and, and are we going to be committed to, um, delving into those questions in the depth that they, they require and deserve?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:09 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:08:09 And, um, or, or will we get naturally enough perhaps caught up in trying to catch up to what we've lost economically and in other ways?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:19 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:21 Well, Gabor, it's... uh, for me, uh, it, it's always a pleasure to talk to you, and just the opportunity to sit with you and, and just have a conversation is something I find incredibly stimulating and incredibly inspiring. I, I've said on many times I think your voice is one of the most important voices globally right now in terms of health, um, in terms of compassion, in terms of addiction, and I'm really excited that you're writing a new book. Uh, when is the new book coming out? Do we know yet? Or is it still too early to say?

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:08:50 It's meant to come out next year. Um, I've been s- I have to confess, I've been struggling with it. As a matter of fact, you mentioned internal family systems. I actually called up Dick Schwartz and had a conversation with him 'cause I needed some help. 'Cause a part of me was really just ready to th- to be in panic about did I this time bite off more than I can chew with this book writing? Is it more than I can actually fulfill on? And I found it a helpful conversation to get in touch with that panicky little inadequate part of mine, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:24 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:09:24 Um, so I think, uh, we all need help at this time, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:28 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:09:28 And then maybe a, a final message I, I think you and I would agree on. And by the way, it's also wonderful to speak with you. I just really enjoy our conversation. I just like the quality of, of, of, of, of, of connection that, that, that I experience when I'm talking with you. But, but maybe one lesson we can all learn is let's just be vulnerable, people, and ask for help when we need it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:49 Yeah.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:09:49 All of us.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:51 I think that, that's a, a, a wonderful place to finish this. I really hope people found our sort of intellectual meanderings sort of going from one place to another. We, you know, again, no preparation. It was more trying to catch up and see what we can, what we can share about what is currently going on, and I think, you know, accept that it's okay to feel the pressure and be vulnerable and need help. That's quite a nice message to people, I think. And I really wanna just highlight what you said earlier. Just, you know, try not to distract yourself. Sit with what... Sit with your feelings. Take the opportunity. Um, you know, well, Gabor, good luck with the book writing. Um, good luck with your walks around where you live.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:10:32 Thank you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:32 And I very much hope you're in London for part of the book tour when it does come out, which I'm sure it will do, and I look forward to having a face-to-face conversation with you next time. So take care. Thank you.

Dr. Gabor Maté 1:10:43 Thank you, Rangan. [upbeat music]