EAT THIS TO HEAL: What To Eat & When To Eat For LONGEVITY! | Tim Spector

Tim Spector 0:00 We're not really in an obesity crisis, we're in a food crisis. It's gonna affect how long you live, how many chronic diseases you get, whether you get allergies, whether your immune system's gonna fight off COVID, and your mood, your sleep, and we should absolutely stop talking about calories. [upbeat music]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:18 I think a lot of people hear information about food, and gut health, and inflammation, and the immune system, and often they get confused. So you are renowned as a global expert on these topics, and so I thought maybe we could start with the question why is gut health so important?

Tim Spector 0:42 Because it's a crucial organ in our bodies, and it is one of the few things that we can really control. So there's a huge range of gut health across the population. We know that we've lost half of our gut microbes compared to perhaps even 50 or 100 years ago, and that's affecting us in many ways. And yet, it's not like genetics that you can't change. It's something that all of us can improve. And all of us needs to understand more about gut health, um, so that we can improve many things in our life very simply just by altering our food choices. So it's, i- it's becoming apparent that it's, uh, something that the public can change. You don't need doctors, you don't need specialists to do it. It's all within our power to really nurture and improve our, our, our gut microbes, which in turn are key for our gut health. So influences, you know, all... Everything to do with our body, our mood, our brain, and, uh, our metabolism, our weight, et cetera.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:50 Yeah. A lot of people think about gut health and digestion, and they think, "Yeah, the gut's... If I can get my gut functioning better, my gut's gonna feel better." But as you say there, it's not just about your gut, is it? It's about many different things in the body.

Tim Spector 2:04 Yeah. It's not... I mean, as you said, I think in the past people have said gut health, oh, that just means, you know, to avoid heartburn or-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:10 Yeah

Tim Spector 2:10 ... bloating or constipation or whatever it is, and now we know it's nothing like that. Even if you feel perfectly normal, you can have poor gut health, which is gonna affect how long you live, uh, how many chronic diseases you get, whether you get allergies, whether your immune system's gonna fight off COVID, uh, all kinds of things. Uh, and your mood the next day, your sleep, all things we hadn't even thought were related. So we have to think much more widely when we talk about gut health. I think it's nearly a sort of, uh, uh... It's like talking about holistic, a holistic view of your body-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:46 Yeah

Tim Spector 2:46 ... uh, that comes back to the, you know, the ancient Indian teachings that says it all comes from there. Which if you said it that way sounds a bit pseudoscience, but if you just, instead of that you call it the gut microbiome, then it's starting to make, uh, sense again.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:59 Yeah. You mentioned that what's really great about the science of gut health is this idea that we don't need to go and see a doctor or a specialist. We can manipulate it. We can change it for ourselves. Now, as a fellow medical doctor, that's something I'm incredibly passionate about, is how can we disseminate information to people that means they can be, I guess, the architects of their own health, rather than need to rely on other people. What have

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:30 you found since you started spreading that through your books, through your podcast, you know, through all these mediums that you use? What sort of feedback have you had?

Tim Spector 3:41 Well, amazing feedback really of, of people writing me letters, sending me presents, um, all kinds of messages saying that just reading my, my book, um, The Diet Myth or Spoon Fed, and saying it changed the way they thought about food. And actually, they taught the rest of their family, and suddenly they're feeling healthier, they're feeling better. And there's nothing quite like that as a doctor-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:08 Yeah

Tim Spector 4:08 ... to feel that you've made, not just a change to someone for a few weeks, but actually changed something probably for the rest of their life, and that's incredibly empowering for me, [laughs] uh, to, to know that you, you know, just by writing some books and, and talking on podcasts, you can actually change people's attitudes long term. And so that really is a major motivating factor for me rather than the hundreds of papers I've written that, you know, only a few academics read. I think getting these messages out and doing doctors out of a job is really what, um, is, i- spurs me on, and probably you too.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:45 Yeah, for sure. And, and Tim, you know, I've been really thinking long and hard over the past few years what does it mean to be a medical doctor, for me at least in 2022. Because when I was at medical school, I always imagined it would be... You know, I would make impacts by seeing people and helping them change their lives and, you know, one on one, do some tests, make some changes, and of course that has incredible value. But I've realized more and more if we do our jobs right through spreading this information through the media, through podcasts and books, I kinda feel we're still doing our job as a doctor just in a very different way.

Tim Spector 5:28 Well, reaching many more people and being much more efficient about it, and not trying to just sort out the short-term problems, which I think is what modern medicine's still unfortunately dealing with, and predominantly dealing with pharmaceutical solutions to those problems, and that's just the way it's set up at the moment.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:49 Yeah.

Tim Spector 5:49 So I... But I think we are seeing more and more. What I, I think is optimistic is, is, uh, you know, doctors like you and, and many others who are suddenly, uh, having a voice and speaking well. Because it was very hard to find any, any doctors 10 years ago that were, uh, you know, prepared to do this without feeling they were gonna be ridiculed or told off by their peers or, you know, would simply not have the right language to appeal to, uh, the general public. So I think we're- Certainly, I mean, it was a bit more advanced in the US, I think.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:23 Yeah.

Tim Spector 6:23 But, but certainly in the UK, we've been very behind, with doctors really scared to, to talk out and, and say what they think.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:31 Yeah. In terms of practical things, we mentioned that improving our gut health can improve all kinds of things in the body, and you mentioned food as a powerful driver. Um, as a powerful tool to use for our gut's health. What are some of the things that people should think about bringing into their diets to improve their gut health?

Tim Spector 6:54 Well, the first thing I think is to, to realize that we're not really in an obesity crisis, we're in a food crisis. And that's because we've lost an idea of what good food is, and the first thing to do is to realize, m- you know, the difference between good and bad food and forget a lot of what we've been told about calories and fats and sugars, and the fact that you can really tell a, a product by its calorie count or its percentage fat on a st- on a label. And most people don't really realize, you know, the difference between ultra-processed foods and whole foods, uh, because they're the same category. You know, a bread is a bread for most people. And so I think the first thing is to just realize that actually mo- virtually all the population don't fully understand what food is. So I think educating more about what food is is really important. Realizing that quality is something we should be talking about, and we should absolutely stop talking about calories. So in a way, that's the first mindset shift, um, I would like people to, to do. And everything we're doing now and, and doing with the company ZOE is to completely ignore, uh, the C word.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:12 Well, I wanna get to ZOE and personalized nutrition shortly, because I think that is really revolutionizing the way we are all going [chuckles] to think about our diets in the future. You mentioned you want people to forget thinking about calories. Now, to a lot of people, that's a very controversial statement. I happen to agree with you on that, but could you elaborate why is the idea of focusing on calories, or even calorie counting, in your view, potentially problematic?

Tim Spector 8:45 Well, there's several reasons. The first is that if you judge a food or choose a food based on its calories, you're ignoring the quality, and manufacturers of foods use calories to disguise the poor quality of the ingredients. All the other, uh, chemicals there affect the highly, highly focused, highly processed, that's gonna have lots of other negative effects on your body. Second is its, uh, th- the estimates of how many calories are in it are, are wrong. Um, even in manufactured processes, they're sort of plus or minus 10%, and in restaurants they're plus or minus about 200%. So you can't judge what's going in. You also can't work out what, how many calories you actually burn in a day either. Uh, huge differences. The idea that, you know, all men have two and a half thousand calories, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:38 Yeah

Tim Spector 9:38 ... is, at all ages, is complete nonsense. And, you know, different times of year and, and all kinds of factors make it impossible that you can work out what the right amount of calories is. So even if, uh, you could accurately measure amount of calories going into your body, it wouldn't be, uh, personalized for you, it wouldn't be worthwhile. And even if you do go on calorie restriction diets, um, over time your body adapts, and so, uh, it changes its metabolic rate, therefore equalizing. So that's why, uh, calorie restricted diets simply don't work. And also, in this country, in the US, uh, people are, the more they go down those routes, the more they tend to go down low fat, low cal, uh, processed foods.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:31 Yeah.

Tim Spector 10:31 And so they're often swapping calories for quality, and this, we know that these other products of food, understanding what's in ultra-processed foods, is actually, will drive your hunger, drive your cravings, uh, make you more tired. All kinds of things that they're not supposed to do, 'cause we're just supposed to think about calories and fat content. And so it's driving people down the wrong direction, and that's why we've got it so wrong over the last, uh, 50 years. That's why, uh, obesity rates are going up, diabetes rates are going up, and ultra-processed food rates are still going up in the US and the UK, which are the two top countries in the world.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:14 Yeah.

Tim Spector 11:14 So that's the first thing. So it's, it's about firstly understanding, you know, the differences between foods. There's a huge difference between, you know, a cooking oil that's made in a highly processed way or olive oil. There's a huge difference, uh, between a bread that's bought in a supermarket that's been hanging around for a year, frozen-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:31 Yeah

Tim Spector 11:31 ... and reheated, uh, in front of you. Uh, and a, uh, uh, sort of artisanally made rye sourdough. Massive difference, and yet they're all called the same, and in most guidelines, oh well, you know, that, they'd be equivalent. So it's understanding those differences between ready meals and something you do yourself. It's-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:50 Yeah

Tim Spector 11:50 ... all those nuances that we need to start thinking about much more than this ridiculous, uh, concept of calorie counting.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:58 Yeah. I mean, I always say that, look, if someone's listening or watching this and they have found calorie counting [chuckles] helpful for them, I'm like, "Hey, go for your life." You know, I'm not, uh, certainly I'm not trying to change what anyone does if they're finding it useful. I've just never, ever found it useful with any of my patients at all.

Tim Spector 12:18 Well, 1% might like, might like it, so let's... Yeah, that's great.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:21 Yeah, so, yeah, if it, if it's working, great. Couple of things to respond there. Um- A few days ago... 'Cause when did it come in in the UK? Mandatory calorie labeling came in, what, a few months ago?

Tim Spector 12:35 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:36 And I was in a cafe down the road from here a few days ago, and I can't remember what I chose, but it had some avocados and it had some nuts in it, and I think maybe some salmon. I can't remember what it was. But then [laughs] when I looked at the, um, ingredients or something, I was looking at the menu, then the calorie thing popped up, and it was... I wasn't used to it, 'cause I'm not used to seeing calories on the food that I look at, and the calorie count was pretty high, actually. So now I happen to, I think, know a reasonable amount about nutrition and what foods are nourishing me. And I thought, "Wow, if you don't know, you may look at that calorie count and go, 'No, no, I'm not going to eat this, 'cause there's a lot of calories. I'm going to get something else instead,'" which may have lower calories, but may be ultra-processed and have detrimental effects on multiple aspects of our body. That's one thing I wanted to mention. The second thing is this reductionist way in which we often look at food now and constituent parts of that food. It's become so reductionist that, particularly the focus on calories, that I think we're missing that big picture on what food is and what quality food is. It's information, isn't it? It's, it sends the body signals. It can influence our inflammation, our gut's health, our moods, uh, hormones, uh, genetic expression. All kinds of things are influenced by food, and I think we forget that, and it goes back of mind when we simply look at just the calorie number.

Tim Spector 14:11 Yeah, absolutely. So w- we're agreed. We should ban it, and, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:14 [laughs]

Tim Spector 14:15 ... get it, get it, uh, or in a font so small you can't see it on the, on the label, which is what they do to the other interesting stuff that you do want to know about. But, uh, y- the restaurant stuff is interesting, 'cause New York, um, introduced this over 10 years ago, and have been doing st- there've been lots of publications on it, and show that it works for a few weeks and then ultimately fails, and then ultimately has a sort of reverse effect, that people, um, will choose the lower calorie options and eat much more of it than they would've done otherwise. So it's, uh... [laughs] And if you talk to the, also, uh, the people preparing the meals, they're just, uh, guessing what's in those, in those meals. They've got no real idea, and it's totally dependent on portion size.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:01 Of course.

Tim Spector 15:01 And so, which can change so easily. So it's not only misleading, but it's also likely to be unhealthy for us, and it's just a, a tick box for governments to say, "Oh, I've done something," that, you know, the, the food industry won't worry about, and they'll be quite happy to go along with it. And, you know, it ticks a box. We're doing something for people's health. But it is absolutely of no use, and totally agree. It- it's obscuring a- all the other good things that are in that food that people should be picking it on. So that's... Yeah, we're agreeing. When you go to a restaurant, you know, look at the ingredients, not the calories.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:36 In terms of the good things people should be focusing on then, so we know the importance of gut's health. In terms of those foods or the types of foods that you would love people to be focusing on more, what are they?

Tim Spector 15:52 Well, gut-friendly foods. So, you know, I'm hoping one day we'll have a, a nice label on the food that gives it a, like a calorie score, a gut-friendly score. And, uh, you are seeing some of the, some of the companies starting to, to, you know, have these labels on it, but they're, uh... It's the Wild West. They can, anyone can put anything on it at the moment. You don't trust it. So what you gotta think of is, what do your microbes want to eat when you're, when you're, when you're picking a meal? And generally, if you pick foods that your microbes are gonna be happy eating, they're gonna be good for you, and they're also gonna be good for the planet. So as a very general rule, uh, that's a pretty good one. And what microbes like to eat is they like to eat predominantly plants. They like to eat, uh, high-fiber plants that are, are complex, and, uh, they, um, like a variety. So there's no point only eating one type of salad every day, even if you love it. Do mix it up, uh, because we've done studies showing that the sort of sweet spot for the number of plants you should eat in a week is around 30. And, you know, w- that's not a precise number, but you should be aiming for at least 30 plants, different plants a week. So bear in mind, that's so that all the... you're generating as many species of microbes that can feed off all the chemicals in each of those plants. So it's, it's like the perfect nourishment for them, is to get that variety across the week.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:20 So if someone, let's say, loves broccoli, and thinks, "You know, I've gotta eat more vegetables, 'cause I know it's good for me. I love broccoli. Okay, I'm gonna have broccoli five, six, seven times a week." Compared to not having that, I guess that would have an improvement. But are you saying that for that person, 'cause I think there'll be people listening to this right now who-

Tim Spector 17:43 Who like broccoli

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:43 ... who, who like broccoli or whatever.

Tim Spector 17:45 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:45 Green beans or-

Tim Spector 17:46 Kale. Kale is a big one.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:47 Yeah. Got their favorite one-

Tim Spector 17:48 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:48 ... and they have that all the time. Can you just sort of expand on that for that person, that, actually, that's great, but you might wanna think about expanding it more?

Tim Spector 17:57 Yes. I mean, so you gotta think of it as, yes, you love broccoli, and broccoli has lots of fabulous in, uh, nutrients in it. But it's gonna generate m- certain microbes that like eating the broccoli and the broccoli side of, side products. But if you just changed it slightly to, "Okay, I'm gonna have a bit of cauliflower," which is the same family, but it's got different chemicals, different nutrients, you'll introduce different microbes to your, to your gut. And eating both together would actually, you know- Create different chemicals that w- we've made by our microbes and have even better results. But if you are a f- big fan of broccoli, you, you know, occasionally go for purple broccoli, which also has slightly different, um, nutrients in it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:43 Yeah

Tim Spector 18:43 ... to, to straightforward ones. So it's, it's about thinking, uh, about how you can just subtly change, y- you know, you can still eat your broccoli, um, but mix it in with other things that are similar and try other ones. There's so many, uh, crucifers that are, uh, fantastic to eat. So I think that's, that's the idea. It's, it's about mixing it up. It's about trying new stuff, and it's about enjoyment in food as well.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:09 Yeah.

Tim Spector 19:09 So we all get into ruts, you know. However interested you are in nutrition, you know, even myself, I get into food ruts, and I sometimes have to go to a restaurant and say, "I'm gonna pick something-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:19 Yeah

Tim Spector 19:19 ... new I've never heard of. Oh, that, I don't know what that is. I'll have that one."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:23 [laughs]

Tim Spector 19:24 Um, or a str- uh, you go to a foreign country and, you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:27 Yeah

Tim Spector 19:27 ... there's some vegetable you don't know what it is. Pick it. And I think that's what we've gotta... We've gotta change our attitude that, uh, we have our comfort zone of, of, of particularly vegetables. That, uh [laughs] -

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:39 Yeah

Tim Spector 19:39 ... I think, you know, whether it's avoiding the ones from school, or it's actually wanting the ones from school. But, uh, realize that even within certain varieties like lettuces or cabbages, there are a huge range. Uh, you can now buy f- you know, c- carrots with three different colors.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:55 Yeah.

Tim Spector 19:56 And they're all nutritionally different. So the way they're bred and, and, and, and the chemicals in them are different. So for your microbes, they're seeing them as different. You might call them all carrots, but they'll be different. Similarly, you know, different range of sweet potatoes and, and, and baked potatoes, and there can be purples and all these other things.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:15 Yeah.

Tim Spector 20:15 So it's that variety that's important. But don't get obsessed that we're only talking about different varieties of kale here, because the 30 includes, um, uh, nuts and seeds and, uh, herbs. We don't know exactly how much, but increasing studies, uh, are showing that just adding, uh, spices, spice mixes to your, uh, your diet a- every, at least, you know, a couple of times a week can enhance-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:44 Yeah

Tim Spector 20:44 ... your gut microbes. So increasingly, the evidence is, is building. It's this, the people who have the more diverse diets, uh, do better. So, um, snap yourself out of your routines-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:56 [laughs]

Tim Spector 20:57 ... uh, whether it's for your salad or your breakfast, and, a- and try and work this in.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:01 So, so you mentioned out of those 30 that you recommend as a ballpark figure, fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, herbs, uh, spices, lentils, and things like beans as well, black beans-

Tim Spector 21:16 Oh, yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:16 ... chickpeas, all those sort of things.

Tim Spector 21:18 Yes. I mean, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:19 'Cause suddenly the 30, when you include all that, it doesn't sound quite as daunting as when it just, oh, what, 30 vegetables, you know?

Tim Spector 21:26 No, exactly. You think of a plate and I've said, "I've gotta get 30 different vegetables on my plate every day."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:30 [laughs]

Tim Spector 21:30 No. Um, I mean, I, you know, I cheat, and for my, you know, my breakfast, uh, which I start now with a, you know, a full-fat yogurt with kefir, you know, I will have a mixed, uh, a, a bowl full of mixed nuts and seeds, and it gives me eight straight away. So-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:47 So you start the day with eight.

Tim Spector 21:48 Yeah. Uh, I, you know, and then I'll... If I've got something in the fruit bowl, I chop up whatever's in the fruit bowl, a, a pear or an apple. And so I might have, you know, start with 10. So if that's Monday morning, I've only gotta, you know, find another 20. Um, and that's just one meal. So as long as you start thinking how you can introduce things, what meals are, you know, good to sprinkle stuff on, and you keep an open mind, and you, you know... I, I, I think it's, not only it's, it's a practical tip, but it actually, it's a way for people to really enjoy food-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:22 Yeah

Tim Spector 22:22 ... and get excited about food again and, and, and not have this, uh, this problem that, you know, in the US and the UK, we s- uh, food is a sort of punishment because of, you know, it's something, it's a fuel, and it's a problem because, you know, we eat too much of it. We've gotta start getting back to enjoying it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:40 Yeah

Tim Spector 22:40 ... and, and enjoying seeking out those foods and not just eating for the sake of it, you know, on the run. So, you know, that's, that's the other side of it. But l- you know, so I think this 30 rule, some people say immediate, "Oh, that's terrible. That's, uh, feels like a burden." But it can be so easy and, you know, just by preparing big jars of stuff and buying berries when you see them and freezing them or-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:03 Yeah

Tim Spector 23:03 ... you know, a new seed or nut and you just add it to your mix. It, it's incredibly easy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:08 For, for someone who may be on zero or, or five at the moment, and they hear 30, what does the research show in terms of... Yeah. Look, from wherever you are, even if you go from 5 to 10 a week, you're gonna get an improvement, aren't you? You're gonna improve the quality and the diversity of your microbiome. 30 may be the ultimate target, but for some people who can't achieve that, I guess we don't want them feeling bad about that. It's a case of, look, start where you're at and just see what you can do.

Tim Spector 23:39 Absolutely, yes. The 30 was just where we saw on the curve in the population that people sort of reached the maximum diversity. Of course-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:47 Oh, so going to 40 didn't really give them much more diversity.

Tim Spector 23:50 On average, no.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:51 On average.

Tim Spector 23:51 I mean, of course. You know, as, you know, we've talked about before, it's all individual, so there's lots of individuality, uh, here. So, you know, some people might be fine on 20, others might need 40. We don't know yet. So we're setting a, a rough, rough bar.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:07 Yeah.

Tim Spector 24:08 So don't knock yourself out-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:09 [laughs]

Tim Spector 24:09 ... if, if, uh, you're only on 28 one week, and you feel like you're a total failure. Um, y- you know, it, it's fine. I think it's, it's an aspirational goal. The more, more important is to just keep it in mind.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:22 Yeah.

Tim Spector 24:22 Your mentality, you're looking for that. Everyone has weeks where it's hard, they're working, you know, they're having to travel. Uh, they, you're not prepared, or you're at someone's house, and they're serving you boring food. You can't say, "Oh, is this all you've got?" You know? "This is terrible." Um, you, you know, it, we live in a practical world.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:38 Yeah.

Tim Spector 24:39 And yeah, just on average, have that as an aspiration and see how you get on

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:44 But, but, but as you, you said for your breakfast, which I find fascinating, you'll get 8 to 10, which almost insulates you from some of the issues that may arise with working late or traveling. And you know, if you've got 8 to 10 on a Monday morning, you're in pretty [chuckles] good shape going into that week. So just talk me through that breakfast again. We'll be back to the conversation in just a moment. Now, many of us struggle to find time to eat all of these incredible whole foods. That's why I'm a big fan of good quality whole food supplements like this one that's been in my own life for over three years now. It contains over 75 whole food source ingredients, vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics, and can help us support our energy, focus, digestion, and our immune system. ATHLETIC GREENS are giving my audience a fantastic offer. One year's free supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first order. You can see all the details at athleticgreens.com/livemore, or simply click on the link below. Now, back to the conversation. What I know is that people really enjoy the conversations I have with you. They feel really inspired to change. And I think hearing that you get 8 to 10 plants in a breakfast, I think may be super helpful for people. So would you mind just sharing that again? Exactly what do you do for breakfast when you have it?

Tim Spector 26:07 In my usual breakfast, which doesn't mean I have it every day, and I do vary it depending on where I am, uh, it's, it's now become a, uh, a full fat yogurt, a 50/50 with kefir, which is fermented milk. Kefir, uh, as it's pronounced in the US, and which has even more mi- so there's like two probiotics in that-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:33 Wow

Tim Spector 26:33 ... with perhaps, uh, we think about 15 mic- microbial, 15 to 20 microbial species between them, if you're lucky. [lips smack] So that's... Also, I've got a probiotic start as well. And then I will go to my, my jar where I keep, um, generally dried nuts and seeds, which I sort of collect as I go around, uh, supermarkets and other places or markets and see, trying to find new ones.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:02 Wow.

Tim Spector 27:03 And, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:04 It's almost like a hobby, a pursuit for you to see these things and pop them in this jar.

Tim Spector 27:09 It is, yes. And, uh, it varies. Sometimes it gets a bit low and down the bottom I'm scraping the barrel and it's a bit grainy and things.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:16 [laughs]

Tim Spector 27:17 Uh, and other times it's, it's, it's, it's over- over-bulging. But I, I, I am aiming to get, uh, you know, y- 'cause it's quite easy, the, the common ones. But the idea is, you know, you can buy easily the, you know, chia seeds and, uh, these ones, but j- you wouldn't wanna eat just those.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:34 Right.

Tim Spector 27:34 Um, so the idea is to, is to mix them up with common ones, and there's nothing ab- it's not particularly the ones that are expensive or not. It's just there's variety, uh, you, you can put in there. And I add also to that, you know, I got, for example, at the moment, some pomegranate seeds.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:51 Yeah.

Tim Spector 27:52 Um, and I just stick those in. Um, and, um, you know, what- whatever's around, I, I will use, and whatever's in the fruit bowl, I generally chop up. Um, I've-- I used to eat a lot of bananas, but since I did my Zoe test and realized that they are really bad for my blood sugar, I've swapped them around and I use chopped up pears. Pears, pears and apples are particularly, uh, fine for me, and they will often go in. But anything I've got lying around will go in that mix, and I have that with a, uh, a double espresso, uh, which is also, um, people should know, a, a very good source of polyphenols and fiber and is very good for your gut, and coffee drinkers are healthier and, uh, live longer and have less heart disease. So, uh, cof- so it's, it's completely the opposite.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:44 That's a, that's a great, that's a great study to refer to if we like coffee, isn't it?

Tim Spector 28:47 Yes. If you don't like coffee, it's a bit tough for you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:50 [laughs]

Tim Spector 28:50 But, uh, d- are you a coffee drinker?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:52 I, I am, very much so.

Tim Spector 28:53 But most people don't realize that there's more fiber in, uh, the average, uh, cup of coffee than in a glass of orange juice, and we all know what orange juice does to your blood sugar. So I think it's changing our idea of what's healthy-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:07 Yeah

Tim Spector 29:07 ... and what's unhealthy, because just for context, 10 years ago, I was eating a, you know, a bowl of muesli with some low-fat milk, uh, a cup of tea, and often a bit of a Tropicana orange juice, and that's terrible for me because this gives me a very large sugar peak, which is, uh, my blood sugar goes up from its, uh, normal level overnight to over two or three times what it is into a pre-diabetic range. So I ha- stress my insulin levels, and as it comes down, I get a sugar dip, and that makes me more tired and more hungry several hours later. And increasingly, if I do that every single day, as I did do, it causes stress on the body, increased inflammation, and, uh, alters my metabolism, so I will put on weight very gradually and, uh, not feel as good as I would do-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:08 Yeah

Tim Spector 30:08 ... if I wasn't having those peaks. So, and this is, you know, only new science and new technologies teaching us that... Because based on those macronutrients I was having with my muesli and my, uh, tea and my, my low-fat milk, it was a very low-fat breakfast, which ticked all the boxes in, you know, USDA guidelines or-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:29 Yeah

Tim Spector 30:29 ... whatever they are, and most GPs would say, "That's a, oh, pretty good breakfast there. You're, you know, you're healthy. You're not having eggs and bacon or whatever."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:38 Yeah.

Tim Spector 30:39 Uh, and it turns out for me- You know, it's ha- it was processed muesli, and you could buy expensive ones, but they're still pretty much ultra-processed. There might be one or t- if you're lucky, a one or two nuts in there, but far outweighed by the negative effects of the sugar.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:54 Yeah.

Tim Spector 30:55 So I think that's the, that's the big shift I've made. So I think breakfast is probably the most crucial meal of the day for a number of reasons. You know, we can discuss some of the other ones. But for people who do like breakfast, do like eating it, it's the one, if we can all change ourselves, generally we're in our home, we're in control of the situation, and we've got into a rut 'cause we- most of us have a very similar breakfast every day, and it's the one that's easiest to change and change all our habits.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:23 Yeah.

Tim Spector 31:23 And if you change that, I think it sort of sets you up, your mentality for the rest of the day, the rest of the month, the rest of the year. You've just got that in your mind, that, uh, first thing you wake up, "I'm gonna get my microbes off to a good start," uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:36 Mm

Tim Spector 31:36 ... one way or another. And for me, it, it works.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:40 Yeah.

Tim Spector 31:40 And I know the difference when I'm staying at someone else's house, and they, I'm offered, you know, toast and marmalade. And, uh, well, I was in France, in Paris recently, and I couldn't resist-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:49 [laughs]

Tim Spector 31:50 ... uh, a croissant. And, uh, uh, you know, if you didn't like croissants, well, you got pain au chocolat or a baguette.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:56 [laughs]

Tim Spector 31:56 You know, that was the, that was the choice. So y- you know, you realize it can be hard, but it's changing what you think is normal, and I think that's really important.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:05 What happens in Paris? 'Cause you're very in tune now with your body. You measure blood sugar regularly. You measure mic- your microbiome regularly. You're, you're in tune with how you feel after certain foods. So I get it. You're in Paris. You get tempted by the smell. You look at it and go, "Yeah, you know what? I'm gonna have that." So number one, were you measuring your blood sugar at the time when you had that croissant? And number two, what did you feel? Like, could you tell, man, I'm... Like, were you hungrier? Was your mood off? Were you... You know, what were some of those things that now that you are in touch with this, that you were quite aware of in a way that you may not have been in the past?

Tim Spector 32:44 So yes, I, I was tempted. And who, who can go to Paris and resist a croissant? You know, I mean-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:49 I get it. [laughs]

Tim Spector 32:50 And, uh, I think we've all gotta realize that, you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:54 There's nothing wrong with that either

Tim Spector 32:55 ... there's absolutely no problem with it. And as long as you enjoy it, and it's a good one.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:59 [laughs]

Tim Spector 33:00 And but if you, you know, if you do feel it's dodgy, and you feel it's just been reheated, don't eat it. But if it's a good one, absolutely eat it and enjoy it. Um, you may wanna try and have a yogurt afterwards, but I couldn't get one. Um, yes, so I, I had, I had the croissant, and, uh, I was, my sugar went up to, uh, 10 and a half. I feel-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:21 10 and a half?

Tim Spector 33:22 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:23 Can we just give some guidelines to people who are not familiar with those terms? I know what 10 and a half is. Um, what should it be for people? Or what should they be looking for, the range?

Tim Spector 33:32 Well, so my resting one is about 5 and a half, um, when I wake up in the morning, 5 hmm millimoles. And, uh, you'll have to do the calculation in the US. Um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:42 Yeah

Tim Spector 33:42 ... milligram. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:42 We can stick to that, 5. Yeah.

Tim Spector 33:44 Uh, w- which, yeah. And so, uh, it, uh, uh, normally, y- well, I say normally. Uh, we know from the, the ZOE Predict studies, there's about a tenfold difference in how people respond to the same croissant. So there's no out- but the average of if you took 100 people, they would go from maybe 4 and a half to about, uh, 6 and a half. Okay? So you get a small increase in your blood sugar when you have something, uh, like a, a croissant or a, a baguette or a bit of white bread. And so that, that's a normal response. We all go up a little bit, but there are some people that go up less, and there's some people that go up more. There's about a tenfold variation that we saw in our study.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:29 Tenfold from what, the, the lowest rise to the top rise?

Tim Spector 34:32 Yes. Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:32 Wow.

Tim Spector 34:33 Yeah. So-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:34 And you went up to 10 and a half?

Tim Spector 34:36 Yes. And I, you know, I've been higher than that, you know? [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:38 Yeah.

Tim Spector 34:39 Um, if I had my orange juice, it would've, you know, taken it over 11. The same as with I have a, a bagel, which I used to think was fairly healthy. Um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:48 But for, for context of people, I know it's possibly not quite the same thing as it's, you know, blood sh- it's a continuous monitor as opposed to, uh, you know, let's say an HbA1c, a three-month average. But, you know, on that, 6.5 or above is type 2 diabetic, if that's your average, right? 6 to 6.5 in the UK, well, 6 to 6.4, I guess, is pre-diabetic in the UK. I think it's 5.7 to 6.4 in, in, in America. Um, so 10 and a half is clearly very, very high. You certainly wouldn't want that to be happening day in, day out.

Tim Spector 35:22 No, exactly. And after it, you know, I, I do feel more tired, and I, I sort of regret my croissant [laughs] after that. There's a feeling sort of, uh, full of guilt, you know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:34 [laughs]

Tim Spector 35:34 Especially when you can see the result, result in your blood. You get this instant sort of, um, oh dear, why did I do that? Um, it wasn't that good, you know? But, um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:42 [laughs]

Tim Spector 35:42 ... I'll try and find a better one next time. Uh, but yeah, and you do f- I find that three hours later, I am feeling hungrier than I would've done if I had my, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:52 Yeah

Tim Spector 35:53 ... high-fat breakfast, which suits me. Um, but I do realize I'm, I'm different, and my wife is quite happy to have lot- lots of croissants and, uh, doesn't have any, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:06 It, it doesn't go up, the sugar-

Tim Spector 36:07 Does she?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:07 ... in the same way.

Tim Spector 36:08 No, not at all.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:08 Wow. And so there's a few terms that have come up so far, Tim, like fermented foods, polyphenols, ultra-processed foods, um, breakfast potentially being the most important meal. And I definitely wanna come to those four points specifically, 'cause I think there's a lot to say on each one.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:25 But we, we are talking a lot about this personalized nutrition, uh, your company ZOE, these continuous blood sugar monitors. Let's take an overview. We're understanding more and more now with science, with research, that we all respond differently to foods. The truth is- I've just seen people thrive on a whole variety of different diets. We know humans have always been opportunistic omnivores, right? Our diets can wildly vary depending on where we live on the planet, geography, climate, all these kind of things. So personalized nutrition potentially is gonna help us explain this. Why are some people crushing it on a low-carb diet? Why are some people crushing it on a whole food plant-based diet? Do you think personalized nutrition potentially is the missing piece here?

Tim Spector 37:13 I think personalization is a key missing piece of the puzzle that we really haven't paid attention to, and could help a lot of people in deciding which food to eat. And to do that, we've got to do away with the fact that one-size-fits-all advice works, and that it's all about the simple reductionist ideas. We are all omnivores, but we're all different. We're all unique. We've all got totally unique gut microbes. And I think we need to, um, both think of foods that are gonna help our gut microbes, which are all gonna be individual, but also to get to the other, that other half of perfecting our nutrition, it absolutely has to be personalized.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:58 Yeah. You mentioned about improving our gut microbes. Have you got evidence at the moment that, let's say, let's say someone has currently got quite a barren gut microbiome. They've not been nourishing it. Let's say their diet hasn't been good, and there's all kinds of other lifestyle factors like stress and sleep deprivation that, that can impact the gut, of course, which we can maybe touch on later. Their gut microbiome is not in a good place, so certain foods at the moment may have a certain response. Certain foods may spike their blood sugar. Do we know yet if they then spend a few months working on their gut microbiome, aiming to increase the amount of plant foods, the amount of diversity, and they improve the health of it, it's more robust, it's more diverse. Do we think then at that point the same food might generate a different response because their microbiome's different?

Tim Spector 38:58 We believe that's potentially likely, but we haven't been able to prove it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:04 Right.

Tim Spector 39:04 There aren't enough longitudinal studies. So the evidence base is that that makes sense, that that's what we see cross-sectionally. So if you just take people at one point in time and you compare them to lots of other people at another point in time, we see that, you know, there's a correlation, but we don't know it's causation. And it's slightly difficult because we know that there's a two-way process. If you're sort of unhealthy and you're giving off inflammation from having too much sugar peaks, it's gonna affect your gut microbes-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:33 Yeah

Tim Spector 39:34 ... in that direction, so make them worse and attract sort of unhealthy microbes. And at the same time, we know that if you can dampen down those unhealthy microbes, you can actually improve things. So certainly in, in rodents it works like that. What we don't know is yet in humans, but we're gonna have the answers pretty soon as people, for example, doing the Zoe test, get retested, and we can see the people that have really changed their gut microbes. You know, can they change their, um, their responses? My, my guess is that i- it's, it's not gonna be quite as easy as that, and it's not gonna happen overnight.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:12 No.

Tim Spector 40:12 I think it's a very slow process that could take, you know, months and years, uh, as you change your physiology. But we do know cross-sectionally that people have got robust gut microbes do react less to, say, um, ultra-processed foods. And we've got some data now, uh, again, from about 20,000 of the Zoe participants that, um, that snack- snacking is also, um, you can tolerate snacking better if you've got a good set of gut microbes. So there's a sort of interaction going on cross-sectionally that we're seeing that I'm hopeful, you know, we'll, we'll see-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:49 Yeah

Tim Spector 40:50 ... i- in real life. So I think that's the aspiration. In fact, that's what I tell people, is that the idea is to build up this really robust community of microbes, which are, I think, best thought of as like, uh, y- your own personal pharmacy. So you wanna have a pharmacy that's well-stocked. You don't just wanna only have paracetamol and Calpol, you know, that's it, you know, and a Band-Aid. You want the h- you wanna have everything at your disposal. And to do that, you've gotta f- give everything to your pharmacy. You have it mass-- supplied with everything it needs. So, you know, microbes are pumping out these healthy chemicals, and if they do that, your body's in better balance. It can then deal with these stresses.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:28 Yeah.

Tim Spector 41:29 And it's not just stress of food, it's stress of everything. It's the stresses of life. It's, you know, dealing with poor sleep. It's dealing with, um, uh, everyday problems as well.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:39 Yeah. What, what I found in practice, Tim, this is without any, uh, of this kind of high-tech testing. I remember certain patients who were quite reactive. They, they, they felt they were reacting to quite a few different foods in sort of an intolerance. And as I helped them improve various aspects of their health, you know, reduce stress, physical activity, better sleep, yes, and gradual changes to their diet, which no doubt would've incru- would've improved the health of their gut microbiome over a period of time. Sometimes, maybe two years later, they would report back, and I've experienced this myself actually, that certain foods that I used to find problematic, I no longer find problematic, or those patients no longer would find them problematic. They would no longer, in many ways, feel that they were intolerant to those foods. Now, I find that fascinating because I don't have any data to prove this, what was going on there. But I suspect that working on these four pillars, food, movement, sleep, and relaxation with them- ... helping them improve the health of their guts, it made them more resilient. It gave them more of a buffer so that a couple of years later, they, they, they just have got more, as you say, more resilience. I guess like a garden, isn't it? Where if the garden is well-stocked, it's got diverse plants, you know, it's less likely that one species or one foreign species or a weed is gonna be able to overtake it all and overgrow it, because you've got that resilience. Is that, is that a fair analogy?

Tim Spector 43:13 It is. And I think the thing we've forgotten is that the way the mi- a lot of the way the microbiome works, the chemicals that they produce, is through the immune system. And so most of the things we're talking about is having also a really well-balanced immune system that isn't overreacting. You know, and a lot of people's... Currently these modern food allergies, et cetera-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:34 Mm

Tim Spector 43:34 ... are caused by an immune system that's, uh, just out of kilter. It's either overreacting or underreacting.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:40 Yeah.

Tim Spector 43:40 And I think that's also the key to this, that the chemicals your microbes produce are gonna keep all the, the lining of your, the gut, where most of your immune system is, all those cells in the perfect condition, the right tune, so that they're not gonna overdo it. And if you get that system right, then you're in this better balanced state. You know, it's like you're generally fitter. It's like an athlete-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:04 Yeah

Tim Spector 44:04 ... who can do all kinds of things. But I, I think it does take time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:08 It does take time, yeah.

Tim Spector 44:09 And I think, and I think what your point is, is that, you know, in the modern world, we're looking for a quick fix.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:13 Yeah. [laughs]

Tim Spector 44:14 And everyone says, "Oh, I've got, you know, my s- tummy hurts when I eat this. You know, I've got... I think, I'm, I'm sen- getting sensitive to this. I want a quick fix, so I've gotta cut it all out." And people just... We need to really educate people that it's a journey. It's not like there's a three-week course, and you cut this out your diet and you're done. It's, you know, you need to... We've got a, such a long way to go back to the guts of our ancestors that didn't have these problems, that you can't do that in six weeks. You know, this is months, this is years. And, but it's worth doing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:48 Yeah.

Tim Spector 44:48 And, and it's not a hard thing to do, and it can be a, a pleasurable thing to do, and I think that's what we... It's changing that mindset that everything's gotta be fixed quickly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:57 Yeah.

Tim Spector 44:57 A quick diet, a quick, uh, healthy snack bar or whatever, you know, uh, some pills, to saying, "Okay, this is a journey. I'm gonna change my idea about food. And once I do that, I'm gonna build up this, slowly build up this resistance." Like you, you know, y- if you were an athlete training, and you wouldn't expect to be super fit, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:17 No

Tim Spector 45:17 ... and run, and run a marathon in, in, in, in four weeks. So that's the real difference, and I think, I think we're, we're in agreement here. And it's, uh, and it, they all connect with each other, so.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:26 Yeah, they all do.

Tim Spector 45:27 And the microbes, you know, we talked... We didn't know when we started these studies how important things like sleep would be on your blood sugar responses. And-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:36 Can you speak to that a little bit?

Tim Spector 45:38 Yeah, so, uh, we, the, this crucial study, the Zoe Predict study, was 1,000 people all eating foods at the same time in precisely the same manner. We've replicated this now thousands of times. And it turns out that if you got poor sleep the night before, you had, like, a 30% greater, uh, sugar spike eating a identical meal.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:02 That's incredible. The same food.

Tim Spector 46:04 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:04 But the way your body handles it, the-

Tim Spector 46:06 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:06 ... the potential damage or the inflammatory consequences of that food are completely different depending on your sleep. That, that's huge, isn't it?

Tim Spector 46:15 So, yeah. And also, the, you know, the way you r- reacted, uh, you know, there was obviously a link also. People who did a lot of exercise had, had lower peaks than those who didn't, so that was another factor. When did you last do your exercise? And, you know, whether you, what sort of meal you had the night before also influenced the next day. So, and how much gap you had in that, that time. So things that you wouldn't even have thought about, um, are, are all coming together, and, uh, th- they all interact a lot through, uh, the, uh, gut microbes as well. So it's not like they're all in, independent. They're sort of working together with each other. So we know that shift workers, for example, who get poor sleep have poorer gut microbes and higher sugar responses. So, uh, we also, we've just done a study on, um, what we call social jet lag of people-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:08 Mm

Tim Spector 47:08 ... whose, uh, big party people at weekends. There might be some people listening who, who can, uh, say that, you know, very good during the week, and then they get, um, uh, go to bed at completely different times, and they s- change their clocks at weekends. And they have, uh, you know, on the Monday morning, bigger, uh, sugar spikes, and their microbes are also, um, uh, suffering as, as a consequence. So everything's about getting this balance right between all, all parts of the body. And because of the technology we've got now in measuring microbes and measuring these sugar responses, you know, we, as you said, we can suddenly start to see, see it and not just, uh, guess it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:47 How tricky does this get as a scientist? Because it's not just looking about food, is it, and saying, "How does that food affect me with my current gut microbiome?" You know, should I eat more of them? Should I eat less of them depending on my sugar response? Because as you've just mentioned, there's other inputs going in. How stressed you are, how sleep-deprived you are, what time you had your previous meal the night before. So how easy is it or how difficult is it to actually make a, to draw a conclusion what this food does for me or you or for anyone else because of all the other inputs that are there as well?

Tim Spector 48:25 When we do the Zoe scores, for example, once you've done the test, it is a holistic test.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:31 Yeah.

Tim Spector 48:31 So, so we're accounting for your sleep, your exercise, and, uh, your meals and your age, your-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:39 Yeah

Tim Spector 48:39 ... weight, all these things together. So, and, and we've talked about sugar peaks, but we haven't talked about the fat peaks, which is the other part of the, the test, is that we're looking at how fast the fat, uh, is dispersed from your body, which we know in some people is very slow. So if you've still got lots of fat, uh, molecules hanging around in your blood at six hours after a fatty meal, that irritates the blood vessels, causes inflammation, and is gonna cause the same sort of metabolic problem. So it's combining all those things together, gives you a holistic score about which foods are m- better and which are worse for you, and so you can make those choices. And at the same time, you know, we do give people lifestyle advice, advice re- you know, if you're sleeping terribly, you're doing shift work, and you're only getting four hours sleep a night, it's gonna be really hard to, whatever you're eating, to be healthy. So I think increasingly, uh, the advice on exercise and, uh, uh, and, and food and sleep and stress are all, uh, related.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:45 Yeah.

Tim Spector 49:46 Um, so absolutely, and, and that, that, you know, I know that's, that's your, your core, uh, teaching.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:52 Well, I've always found, you know, I've, for me personally, Tim, I've always found that I can't limit it to one thing. It's, it's everything. It's like I've always been drawn to looking at the whole picture and an individual and, you know, I've always been like this. But even doing, you know, the Doctor in the House series on BBC One in 2015 and 2017, where I'd spend four to six weeks with different families with a whole variety of different health outcomes, I got so much time with them. I got to see everything, how, you know, the way a husband and wife would talk to each other in the evening before... You know, how that would impact their health and, you know. Like I would see how they were eating. Are people eating together in a relaxed way, or people, you know, eating in separate parts of the house whilst also scrolling Instagram and Facebook? You know, I, I, I guess one of the reasons that show was such a good fit for me is because I, I literally would see, oh man, I'm missing a big picture here in just 10 minutes or even 20 minutes with a patient. It's all of these factors play a role, and I think the science now on lifestyle, but even on the gut microbiome, is showing that actually, yeah, all these factors actually play into the health of our guts.

Tim Spector 50:59 Yeah. No, and, uh, and it's realizing that all these things have a role and that m- many of them, or most of them, you can, you can, you can change.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:10 Yeah.

Tim Spector 51:10 You know, we all go periods of time when it's tough. You got young kids or you've got some work things. You know, some things you can't work on at that particular time, but you can generally work on some of them-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:21 Yeah

Tim Spector 51:21 ... uh, all the time, and I think that that's, that's also the approach to food. And I, and, and we, we talked about people who can't get their 30, uh, plants every single week. You know, don't worry about it. There's other things you can do, and, uh, it's, it's changing the idea. So if I can't do that, I'll do something else or, um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:40 Yeah

Tim Spector 51:40 ... I'll, you know, uh, it's not all lost if you didn't do it that week, and I think that's the big problem.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:45 You mentioned Zoe a few times, right? So this personalized test, let's go through what is it? And I know, Tim, there'll be many people listening thinking, "Can I do it? Can I have access to it?" So if you could just walk me, walk us all through what you're measuring, and then also who is it available to and how can anyone listening to this show or watching it on YouTube, how are they gonna be able to access this, or when might they be able to in the future?

Tim Spector 52:11 So Zoe is, uh, the Greek word for life, and it's a company that myself and, and two entrepreneurs founded five years ago really to develop personalized nutrition and based on science. So we did the science projects first, which are these predict studies which we published in, in Nature Medicine and in many other journals. So we decided to do this, actually do the science first before launching the product rather than the other way around, which is, uh, often the case. And it's a kit that you basically reproduce what we did in the science projects at home. So you sign up, you go online on joinZOE.com in the US or the UK, and you, uh, get sent a kit which i- uh, contains three main elements to it. It contains, um, a, a continuous glucose monitor, it contains a, uh, a skin prick test for your blood fat, which you do, uh, six hours after a fatty meal, uh, and it contains a, a gut microbiome test where we use, uh, high-density sequencing, metagenome sequencing, not the single gene one, uh, to measure your gut microbes. And at the same time in that pack, you've got, um, some standardized meals in the form of muffins, which everyone has taken the same muffins at the same day, so you've now got, I think it's 25,000 people's results to compare with. Uh, you get, uh, you download the app, which, uh, allows you to log food. You log your energy levels, you log your h- uh, hunger levels for those two weeks, and you can do a number of little experiments yourself, uh, in a standardized way, logging your results as you go. So that first two weeks is just to, uh, get your baseline results compared to everyone else, and then a couple of weeks after that, you get your results, which are a, as we discussed, a holistic score, but mainly focusing on the three components: your blood sugar response, your fat response, and your microbiome. And so all the foods that you can think of or scan in a supermarket or restaurant, uh, or at home, are given a score from naught to 100, and you're then, uh, given the chance to sign up for a program for between, uh, one and 12 months that gives you access to an online nutritionist who goes through your scores and then works out meal plans for you, uh, to maximize all those three components.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:55 Yeah.

Tim Spector 54:55 And that's the basic idea with, uh, it's combining foods You know, y- and you can still have a food you don't like if you combine it with something that, um, that isn't good for you with, with something that is good for you, so your score, um, can match up. So the idea is to very much personalize your meals, at the same time making it fun, make it interesting, and never once talking about calories. And trying to change the way people think about eating as well, and, uh, trying to reduce maybe th- unnecessary snacking. Uh, trying to make your, your meals fun and substantive and, uh, as you said, giving yourself time to eat and prepare. Uh, a- and actually enjoying the food, and trying new ones.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:41 Yeah.

Tim Spector 55:41 That's the whole idea. So, you know, you get this app and this amazing list of different foods and things you can eat. Some of you never thought of trying. But, um, you know, that's the whole idea is we make it fun, exciting, and you've got an, an online nutritionist, uh, which is proving extremely popular and-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:58 Yeah

Tim Spector 55:58 ... we've done a, we're doing a randomized control trial to see exactly how, how it works in a scientific way. But of the few hundred people that we've looked at, um, in a sub-study, you know, most are losing, um, uh, eight to nine pounds in weight. Uh, and e- over 85% report less, uh, a- less hunger and, importantly, more energy, and we didn't expect that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:26 Yeah.

Tim Spector 56:26 But energy is a... We, we didn't, we hardly, we... As an afterthought, we thought we'd record it in the app.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:32 Yeah.

Tim Spector 56:32 Um, and it turns out it's highly correlated to, uh, keeping your sugar peaks down and your, uh, fat peaks down.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:41 I think energy's a big one. It's in some ways the currency of life, isn't it? It's... We all know what it feels like when we have got low energy. We don't wanna do anything. Our food choices are affected. We don't wanna cook something fresh. We take the quick and easy option. You know, energy is everything, I think. And I would argue that if there's one thing we wanna improve, certainly in my experience more than anything else, it's energy. Because all our decision-making, all our behaviors, I find, are so much better when we've got energy. But as you know, so many people are struggling with that. Given that it's personalized, um, and I know you've set me a Zoe kit and I still haven't done it. Week on Monday, I will be doing it. So when you come on the podcast next time, when your next book is out, which I'm really excited about, um, we'll definitely talk about how I found it and what results I got. Given that it's personalized, are there some general trends that are applicable to people who haven't done it yet, who are like, "Okay, I get it's personalized," but is there anything I can learn from what you have learnt so far?

Tim Spector 57:48 Yeah, I mean, I think if I tried to say, "Well, I, what have I learned?" without knowing what my results were, just looking at other people's results, is that many th- uh, you know, there's a proportion of people that are really sensitive to carbohydrates, and there's a proportion that aren't. And it's hard to tell. Obviously, if you've got a lot of perhaps diabetes in the family, you might suspect that that's, that's, that's true.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:16 Is that refined carbohydrates and whole food carbohydrates?

Tim Spector 58:20 Yes. Yeah. It, it is. I mean, I, the more ref-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:23 Got it

Tim Spector 58:23 ... the more refined, the worse. But it, it's a spectrum. There isn't a, an absolute cutoff, no.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:29 Uh, uh,

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:29 just, but as you expand there, just to share my own experience, 'cause I have used a CGM, a continuous glucose monitor, a couple of times. I don't use one regularly. Um, but I did earlier on in the year and I've, I've got one on at the moment. And last week over dinner, it was pretty healthy meal, and I think the carb with it was sweet potato mash that my wife had made. Oh, man. I can't remember what it went up to, but it was a big rise, uh, with my blood sugar about an hour, maybe an hour, hour and a half after the meal, which really surprised me. And I found with other things, like if it's a few boiled potatoes or a small amount of white rice, actually it doesn't anywhere near to the same degree. Now, there's a few other things I need to tweak and I need to replicate with different foods just to see which one it was. But sweet potatoes are considered, you know, a healthy carb, a whole food carb. Sure, it was mashed, so that was, you know, that's changed it somewhat. But that was really interesting for me, because I may have continued eating that, but that will definitely make me think again about how much do I wanna have this if it's gonna push my sugar that high. So that, I guess, speaks to what you're saying and what you're finding with people. Some people are exquisitely sensitive to carbs, even whole food ones.

Tim Spector 59:43 And yeah. And there's, and different carbs. So you know, there will be some things that, you know, there's a difference between pasta and rice, and, and bread for some people. And, and, and understand there's a huge difference, you know, b- within those ranges. And I mean, uh, people will say, "Okay, well, uh, porridge is healthy, isn't it?" Most people tell me, "Oats, that's healthy." But you know, for me, they're not. But you know, I tried three or four different types of, um, uh, oat porridge, and what that tells you is the more refined, the more ground up, the more it's been, uh, factory made, and the quicker it is to make, the f- the higher my sugar peaks go.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:24 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:00:24 So as a general rule, if you pick things that are less refined, less processed, and take longer to cook, it's because, you know, their outer coating is, uh, you know, that, that, those, that energy is stored much, much, uh, and it's harder to get out. So, so steel cut oats, things you have to, you know, cook overnight, don't have half the sugar peak of the identical, um, you know, Quaker Oats, uh, instant meal. Which for me is just like pure sugar. So I think it's te- telling-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:57 So, so hearing that porridge is healthy doesn't mean anything.

Tim Spector 1:00:59 No.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:00 For who? Sorry to interrupt. If you are enjoying this content, there's loads more just like it on my channel, so please do take a moment to press Subscribe, hit the notification bell, and now back to the conversation

Tim Spector 1:01:12 And it's the structure of food.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:13 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:01:13 It's, you know, because you've broken down that oat, it, it can be in its whole form. You can have it, you know, cut. You can have it rolled. Uh, you know, or you can have it so finely powdered and dry- air-dried that, that sugar just, you know, rushes out and you've got- haven't got any fiber. So understanding the differences between foods, I think is, is a, is a really important lesson so that we mustn't over-categorize. Again, reduce everything to saying, "This is good. This is bad." Within each category, there are, are good and bad foods that we all need to learn about. And it's like hummus and chickpeas or-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:48 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:01:48 ... you know, almonds and ground almonds. You know, they, they have totally different amounts of things in them when the structure changes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:56 Given how much data we can learn about ourselves through continuous sugar monitors, are we not getting to the point where it's almost in every single person's best interest to at least do a two-week trial with one of them to at least say, oh man, I'm having that every day. Maybe I shouldn't be having that. Obviously, you've got to be careful with people's relationships with food, and food is so much more than just the blood sugar [laughs] response, isn't it? But I don't know. Have you got any comments on those things?

Tim Spector 1:02:26 I think, um, people can get obsessed with-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:30 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:02:30 ... uh, blood sugar monitors, and there are people, you know, who get ob- obsessed about all kinds of things about food. And, and reducing it to purely a sugar peak, uh, is not the right answer-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:40 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:02:40 ... because y- you can go down completely the wrong direction. And just by adding double cream to everything, you can dampen down the sugar response.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:49 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:02:49 But it doesn't mean that eating, uh, you know, a bucket full of dou- double cream every day is good for you. So, um, I think you've gotta see it in the ho- in that holistic light of all the things-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:00 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:03:00 ... we've talked about, and your fat response. Some people can cope with a lot of fat, other people can't. And there are good fats and bad fats as well. So it, it's just part of the equation. But I, I think it does give people, like, an insight into, you know, the fact that something we shouldn't necessarily need. Orange juice actually is not a health food. And it's, uh, you know, it's pr- should be in the alcohol category or something like that that you take. Um, it's not good for anybody really. Um, which y- if everyone did have a glucose monitor on every time they, they had a, a glass of orange juice, they would see it's, uh, you know, the same as a Coca-Cola. And it would just be- put them in the same sort of category and so you say, "Well, okay, um, that should go in the same..." So it would, it would change people's ideas of things. And I think, you know, I, I... There will be a, a watch soon that do- I, I think probably within five years, that does the same as a-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:59 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:03:59 ... a glucose monitor. And once that happens, everyone w- like counting steps and things, they'll probably want it. But I think we have to be very careful we don't, don't then over r- you know, make the same mistakes-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:12 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:04:12 ... of reductionism that we've made up to now because humans love to make it simple. And nutritional food is anything but simple.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:20 Yeah. I mean, I was playing devil's advocate a bit, asking should everyone have one because my concern with trackers in general, which is why I've used this twice. So I had two weeks at the start of the year. I'm in a two-week cycle now. I... It, it's-- I've, I've said this before on this show, but I always notice this with blood pressure monitors with patients. People say, "Should I get one? Should I get a home blood, blood pressure monitor?" And, you know, it would depend, and some patients would. And then it was pretty much a 50/50 split. For some people, it was awesome. They'd check it once a week or twice a week. They wouldn't stress about it. They'd use it as a way of keeping them on track with their lifestyle changes. The other 50% would check three, four times a day. Any time it was slightly up, they'd recheck it.

Tim Spector 1:05:05 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:05 They'd get anxious. They'd come back in. That would drive their blood pressure up even more. And I thought, wow, the same tool can be helpful or problematic depending in some ways on the personality type, depending on who that person was. And I, and I suspect, you know, 'cause there's tracking everything now. There's sleep trackers. There's step trackers. There's blood sugar trackers. And I think we've just gotta be careful, as you say. I think a blood sugar tracker for two weeks for anyone is you bring stuff that you don't know about that's hidden inside you. You bring it into the light. Like, if you suddenly see your glass of orange juice that you think because of all the packaging, it's got vitamin C in and all the things the packet says is helpful for you, and you see yourself going to 10 or 11 on, you know, way over the diabetic range, you might think twice about having that, you know, several times a week. And if all that does for you is, is help you realize, or maybe someone who has porridge every day and they realize, wait a minute, porridge is spiking my blood sugar massively. It's gonna, you know, do this for five years. I'm gonna end up type 2 diabetic.

Tim Spector 1:06:14 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:15 Then that has value because they can then use that, and they don't have to check it all year. They can just, they can move on. Or maybe they do it w- I don't know. Maybe it's the sort of thing in the future they'll do once a year or once every six months and go, "Oh, this is what's happening at the moment. Okay. I'm gonna make some changes. I'm not gonna look. I'm gonna work on my gut microbiome. And then six months later, I'm gonna put it back on again just to see." I think that's how I'm going to be using this, um, just because I think I could also potentially, 'cause of my personality type, I think I could run the risk of getting obsessed, which is why I'm very cautious about trackers.

Tim Spector 1:06:51 Yeah, no, I, I totally agree. And I, I, I, I don't see this as a permanent feature on the human body.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:56 No.

Tim Spector 1:06:57 I think that'd be a real mistake. Uh, we'd be creating super neuro- neuroses. And you can artificially ch- you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:05 You can cheat it, can't you?

Tim Spector 1:07:06 You can cheat the system.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:07 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:07:07 And, and, and again, forget the point of it, which is getting quality food into your gut microbes. Um, so I, you know, I think doing it once in a programmed way, it's not actually that easy to do it yourself. And I think-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:20 Oh, that's interesting

Tim Spector 1:07:21 ... that, I mean, we've found, you know, I- I've done, several times I've told people, oh, for radio programs, you know, do it and we'll discuss it. I- if unless you've got clear guidance on what to do, what to look at, what the peaks are, when to measure it, uh, it's, you get the wrong impression about things.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:38 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:07:38 And, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:38 Which can be even more problematic.

Tim Spector 1:07:40 Yeah. You, you measure the wrong time after eating a bread, you miss the peak, you know, you don't know what's going on, you can't compare it to anyone else, you get the wrong impression. So I think in a standardized way, um, doing it, but I, I wouldn't do it more than once a year, I don't think.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:54 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:07:54 Um, and I've found that even though I've used maybe 20 times or so, you know, I'm not obsessional about these things, and I do often forget I've got it on. I sort of know how I'm gonna respond to things now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:06 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:08:06 And so y- you have that early lesson, which is really good, gives you a real sort of jolt about, gosh, I was wrong about food. You know, I was wrong about my breakfast. Uh, you know, this is, I'm gonna educate myself more. That's what I think we should, uh, be, be aiming for, which comes back to this, you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:24 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:08:24 ... the idea we, we were, oh, you know, what is good food? How do, how do we tell? And for people without a glucose monitor, you know, one in four people do feel, uh, energy levels. And I think, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:38 What they feel them going down?

Tim Spector 1:08:39 Down, yes. Uh, but some people don't, you know? And, um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:43 You mean when their blood sugar spikes and crashes, some people get a lo- low energy, but other, others don't at that time.

Tim Spector 1:08:50 Well, or they're not particularly observant enough to, to notice it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:54 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:08:54 ... unless they're being prompted, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:56 Got it.

Tim Spector 1:08:56 And so I think, but I think this is perhaps one thing we should be promoting, is that, you know, if you're doing self-experiments and you, you know, you haven't got the money to, to pay for these things, which are still not in everyone's reach, how to listen to your body more, to say, well, am I hungry? What's my energy level like? And just sort of make a note or, you know, keep a diary of things is the other way to do this. And-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:20 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:09:20 ... there are a certain portion of people who, who can judge pretty well what foods are. But the nice thing about our study was people were blind to it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:27 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:09:28 They didn't know their results, and so when we saw these peaks and troughs, which one in four people had really big ones, you know, we'd... And they were un, they didn't know why they were feeling tired. They just reported they were tired on the app, and I think that's really interesting.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:44 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:45 You mentioned breakfast a few times. Um, you often appear in the media, uh, with some-

Tim Spector 1:09:51 I'm Mr. Breakfast.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:52 Yeah, some pretty crazy headlines. Now, I've, I've been around in media enough to know not to trust the headline.

Tim Spector 1:09:56 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:57 Um, but skipping breakfast potentially being good for us is something that's often attributed to you. Now, can you expand, what is your view on breakfast? Um, and I guess the, the, the, the kind of context here is that for many years people have said breakfast is the most important meal of the day.

Tim Spector 1:10:17 They have, and that, that's really the, where I came into it and really writing The Diet Myth. My idea was to look at the data and challenge some of these myths, which I thought w- it was a long-standing one, and strangely, it's still there. If you go to the NHS eight- eight healthy eating tips, it's still there, um, despite all the evidence saying that there is no evidence that, uh, skipping breakfast is bad for you. So that's the first. Well, the countless studies now show it is not bad for you. It doesn't cause metabolic problems. It doesn't cause diabetes or you to gain weight, which is... Or even it doesn't cause kids to-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:57 Mm-hmm

Tim Spector 1:10:58 ... perform badly at school, which was the other worry, uh, that was planted by the food companies in people's minds. Some studies have shown that it actually, uh, can induce some weight loss. Um, now, that's not totally consistent, but it is certainly going in that direction. The meta, when you combine all the studies together, that's what you show. But increasingly, um, the idea that this might be true is supported by science showing that it may not be the, the breakfast itself, but just the gap you're leaving-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:32 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:11:33 ... overnight and this whole question of not just what we eat, but how we eat, uh, is becoming more and more important. And everyone's heard about intermittent fasting, but, uh, the, the new thing that all, all the nutritional scientists talk about is restricted time eating-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:53 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:11:53 ... which, um, um, I'm sure you've talked about many times. But the finding about skipping breakfast was, was in a way a pointer to that actually we've been missing this whole idea that the idea of we should be eating little and often, uh, throughout the day has actually been the wrong advice, and that we should be, uh, compressing our mealtimes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:12 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:12:12 Perhaps doesn't matter whether it's, um, two or three meals, but they should be in a shorter timeframe. And so the sweet point seems to be somewhere between, you know, in about 10 hours of eating and, and 14 hours of, um, not eating. And that's an, that might be uh, the reason that skipping breakfast for most people, not everybody, and again, uh, I think there's quite a bit of individuality here. There are some people who f- generally feel hungry when they wake up and feel tired if they don't have some breakfast. But I would say the majority of people don't, and it's just a cultural or a sort of, um, lifestyle, uh, reason to get some food in you when you're in your h- your home comfy environment. But increasingly I, you know, I've started myself to either skip breakfast or have it at 11 o'clock.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:02 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:13:03 And particularly post-COVID, people are working at home now. They are in much more control of their mealtimes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:09 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:13:09 And it's a great time to, to start. So that, that's a pra- bit of practical advice that everyone can do. Either s- try skipping it- And see how you feel. Uh, and if, uh, that doesn't feel right or you still enjoy breakfast with, you know, its ability to have your, your yogurt and your, or your nuts and seeds, which would be a, you know, uh, if I missed out on that, would be problematic, um, have it later. And, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:37 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:13:37 ... have it as a, or either as a brunch or just a couple of hours before you, you have your other meal.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:42 Yeah. I th- I think it's super helpful. And as you say, the problem with these cultural, uh, fixed ideas are that often people are not paying attention. They're not feeling hungry, but they think, "I should have breakfast because I keep hearing that, and the scientists say it's important to have it." And the problem is it's very hard to say breakfast's good or bad because it depends, number one, what do you mean by breakfast, [laughs] right? What time is it? Is it at 6:00 AM? Is it at 11:00 AM, you know? Um, it also depends on the rest of your life. Do you enjoy a big meal with your family at 9:00 PM, right? Maybe people are working late, and actually that's the way that they connect at that point, or whatever. In which case, you know, at 7:00 AM you may not be hungry, whereas if you eat, like I try and eat with my kids at, you know, when I can, uh, around work, about 5:00, 5:30. Like, I genuinely feel at my best when I'm doing something like, um, I'd say an 8:00 AM till 6:00 PM or a 9:00 AM till 6:00 PM eating window. Even sometimes a, a 10 till 6, like an eight-hour eating window. I feel great. I don't feel hungry before. I don't feel hungry afterwards. I sleep like a baby. And it works for me, my job and my lifestyle. And-

Tim Spector 1:14:59 At this point in time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:00 At this point in time, exactly. So therefore, these studies, and, and I, I say with all this public health advice, I'd encourage people to, you know, think a little bit. You know, become, take a bit of agency over themselves. Use what you're saying or what I'm saying or what they hear, but also try and filter it and apply it in the context of your own life. I think that's important, isn't it?

Tim Spector 1:15:20 Yeah. And it's very different if you've got young kids. You're gonna have a, a different time scale than if you're, you know, uh, grandparents and, um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:28 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:15:28 ... and you've got, you know, the time is, is, and you're retired and you've got, you know, you can plan everything yourself. So-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:34 'Cause there's a social aspect to food, of course.

Tim Spector 1:15:36 Yeah. And we mustn't forget that. Really important that people don't obsess about-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:40 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:15:40 ... I, I do worry that, um, and certainly, uh, looking at some of the Zoe customers in the US, it's about 30% are already on restricted time eating when they're coming into the program. So it's huge in the US compared to the UK. But some people might get so obsessed about their eating times that they forget, uh, the healthy aspect of the food they have to eat and the enjoyment and the social aspect.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:06 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:16:06 And I think again, for people who are a bit, you know, obsessional on it, uh, it, they have to make it not so extreme, and I think that's the danger of people trying to outdo each other and say, "Oh, I can, I can, I only need to eat in a four-hour window and, and I'm fine."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:21 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:16:21 And it's just not... You wouldn't get people in f- in Italy or Spain or France, uh, who enjoy the long meals and the, you know, and the socializing doing that, and they're the ones who live longest and, you know, are healthier. So we have to remember that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:36 Some of those countries, of course, are having later breakfasts, aren't they? They're, or they're sort of technically skipping the breakfast that we might have in the UK certainly at that time.

Tim Spector 1:16:43 Yeah. Well, I, I, I work in Spain a lot, and you know, they usually don't finish eating till 10:00 PM, uh, sometimes 11:00. But you rarely see anybody having breakfast before 11:00. Uh, if they do or they don't bother. This, it's just a, it's just a coffee.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:58 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:16:58 So I think different-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:00 That's fascinating, isn't it?

Tim Spector 1:17:00 ... there's different cultural ways to it, and we've just assumed that lots, everyone has, you know, the same habits in different countries. But they, you know, there's a north-south divide in, in times of people eating in Europe. Um, uh, but in the south, it's not like they're at 7:00 AM eating breakfast.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:17 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:17:17 Um, and I think the ones who tend to eat earlier tend to have more earlier breakfast. But I think it's, it's very personal and-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:25 It is

Tim Spector 1:17:26 ... and, but most people I speak to, when you say, "Well, the first thing you wake up," you know, and you've had a cup of tea or coffee, most people just don't feel really hungry, you know? It's not like that's the first thing on your mind-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:38 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:17:38 ... if you had a choice of things to do, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:40 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:41 Just to finish off this conversation, Tim, uh, we've mentioned polyphenols and fermented foods. We didn't go into that much detail on either one. Could we just briefly go through what are polyphenols, why should people think about getting more of them in, how can they do that? And then potentially the same for fermented foods as well.

Tim Spector 1:18:00 So polyphenols used to be called antioxidants, and they are a group of well over 1,000 different chemicals that are in plants, in all plants to different levels, and they're defense chemicals that plants use to defend themselves against sun or, uh, predators. And, uh, they are often, when you eat them, have a slightly bitter taste, uh, can cause astringency, just like if you have a, uh, a really old red wine, it gives you that, that taste on the tongue. That's because the skin of the grape has a lot of these polyphenols in it. And, uh, they are in, uh, brightly colored foods. They're in slightly bitter foods, and they're in complex foods. And so they're in things like coffee, dark chocolate, red wine, uh, extra virgin olive oil, uh, nuts, seeds, berries particularly. So these are all health foods. And these polyphenols we now know are useful for us because they feed our microbes, and those microbes then convert them into other healthy chemicals. We can't really use them ourselves. So it's quite interesting. It's, they really are like specific fish food that we're eating-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:19 Wow

Tim Spector 1:19:19 ... uh, that, that provides us then, you know, then they, these chemicals then get back into our bloodstream and- dampen down inflammation and keep us healthy. So that's really important. And there's big differences between foods. You know, s- like the choice of a cooking oil between, you know, uh, a highly refined vegetable oil and a extra virgin olive oil is massive. Um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:44 Can you see that in Zoe as well?

Tim Spector 1:19:46 [lip smacks] Um, well, it's reflected in the scores.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:49 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:19:50 So we would give a different score to vegetable oil than we would for, uh, uh, extra virgin olive oil, both depending on the quality of the fats, but also its effect on your, your gut microbes. So all of the scores do reflect, uh, polyphenols and, um, f- the fermentation, which is the next, uh, thing we're talking about, which also affects the gut. So polyphenols, really important, and, uh... But it's... But you've gotta understand a bit more about the food. So chocolate, for example, all chocolate has some polyphenols in it, but it's only in the cocoa part of it, not the, um, the artificial bits, and not the sugar, and not the milk.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:31 Which is why the dark chocolate is the, the preferred option.

Tim Spector 1:20:34 Dark chocolate is packed with it. Milk chocolate is, uh, is... has very little and is overridden by the sugar. So again, it's, it's all about the quality, and looking at the labels, and seeing what's on the food.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:46 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:20:46 And, you know, difference between picking a really brightly colored lettuce or a, an iceberg lettuce is massive, um, in terms of the difference of the polyphenols. So the color of the leaves and the way th- the lettuce is, w- gives you a, a different indication of how many polyphenols it's got.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:02 So what are we looking for when we're picking our lettuce?

Tim Spector 1:21:05 Um, you're looking for one with loose leaves, um, that is brightly colored, uh, often different colors, r- reds. Uh, and, uh, that's true for a lot of foods. So generally, it's a bit like the berry. The brightly colored berries-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:19 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:21:20 ... have more of these things than the other ones do. So this is a, you know, we're just understanding this, this sort of science. So some, some of the things we thought were good for us aren't, and uh, uh, this is another thing to look out for. So polyphenols are really good. Fermented foods are anything that has live microbes in it. Uh, so it's like probiotics na- naturally occurring in food, so by the time you're eating it, it's actually got live microbes that can still replicate and produce chemicals. And so everyone knows yogurt has that, but kefir has, uh, several times more microbes than yogurt, and it's a thinner version of it. And then you've got, um, o- o-, uh, you've got kombucha, which is fermented tea, which is becoming more popular, which has even more than kefir in it, and has, uh, different fungi and yeasts.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:13 Wow.

Tim Spector 1:22:13 So often up to 30 different microbes you can find in a, in a proper kombucha. And you've got then, uh, sauerkraut used, uh, you know, in Central and Eastern Europe, which is fermented cabbage. And of course, going one level above that, you've got kimchi, um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:31 One level above that in terms of the number of microbes?

Tim Spector 1:22:33 Number of microbes and diversity because you've also got, as well as cabbage, you've got, uh, you've got garlic, you've got chilies, uh, you've got, uh, onions, and other peppers and things. So the more complex it is, often the, the greater the richness of the, the microbes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:49 And that's super helpful because sauerkraut is known to be a... f- for people who are, you know, who read about gut health, they know that sauerkraut is one of those fermented foods that's really helpful. But this idea that you can upgrade to kimchi because it's not just cabbage, it's like, going back to the very start of this conversation, the diversity. It's got more plant foods in it, therefore, um, it's gonna, you know, feed more and more microbes. That, that's super helpful, I think.

Tim Spector 1:23:16 Yeah. And there's... And then you move on to the j- uh, if you like Japanese food, of course, anything with miso in it is, uh, is, is really important because miso is fermented soy. And so there's plenty of, um, fermented soy dishes that you can get as well, but, uh, tempeh and, uh, other o- other ones like this. So fermented food is really big. Uh, be careful you don't buy ones with vinegar in it-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:44 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:23:44 ... that have killed. And, uh, you know, try and smell the... When you open, open it, check it hasn't got vinegar in it, and you can usually tell by the smell if it's, if it's live or not. And having a small amount every day is what I try and do. Uh, there's no point in having a, a, a feast once a week. We know that these things die out, so for practical reasons, try and have a small shot of one or two of these every day. And that's why if you have it at home in your fridge, you're near the... for breakfast or your first meal, you've got it, uh, or you have it l- you know, at night when you come back.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:19 I, I love that. That reminds me of what I talk about a lot, which is, like I... You know, a lot of people who listen to the show know that I do a five-minute strength workout every morning whilst my coffee's brewing. It's a habit that I've stacked onto that, so I never miss it 'cause I never miss my coffee. So I never miss that little five-minute workout every morning. And I always say that I, I found that little regularly actually has a very powerful effect on the body no matter what habit it is, what, no matter what behavior we're trying to bring in. And I guess bringing that into gut health as well, a little bit every day with a fermented food is better than binging on the whole jar maybe o- on a Sunday when you have more time, something like that.

Tim Spector 1:24:58 Yeah. And I've changed... And I... And cheese is the other thing, of course, which we forget is, is fermented if it's real cheese. But, um, you know, we're not talking about Kraft slices. We're talking, um, uh, uh, that, you know, your, uh, cheese that doesn't have to be unpasteurized, although that helps 'cause you do get extra microbes if it's raw milk cheese. Uh, but most cheeses are good. The ones with, uh, blue lines and fungus on them or have even more microbes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:26 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:25:26 And just having a small amount of that every day, it is absolutely healthy. You know, there's a myth that cheese is- Bad for your heart and things. Absolutely no evidence that's true. Um, a small regular amount of that had... You know, and instead of, um, a pickle that might be high in, in sugars and, and salt, a traditional English pickle, you know, try sauerkraut or kimchi with it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:48 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:25:49 Uh, and I think increasingly you can just build this into your, your daily diet so you are having these things regularly, and you just have something in the fridge you just pop on your plate as an extra. You know, and I think that that's what I found, is having the ingredients ready around you so you can just add them, whether it's, you know, the original seed mix, or it's the, the kimchi pot or the-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:10 Make it easy

Tim Spector 1:26:10 ... you just grab it and you stick it in. And y- you know, like, like your f- or just after your coffee you have a s- you know, if you're in a hurry, just have a quick, a shot glass of your, your kefir or your kombucha and, uh-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:24 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:26:24 ... you're sorted. So that's fermented foods, and I think everyone, you know, needs to learn about them.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:30 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:26:31 Uh, other countries have been doing it for centuries, and we, we've just lost out.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:35 Just before we finish off, Tim, I think it's an important point to make that something I'm observing a lot is that a lot of people, or certainly, you know, there, there's a s- significant amount of people who struggle to increase the amount of plants in their diet. They get symptoms. They get bloating. They don't feel good. And you will have seen this online, uh, as I have, that there is a growing movement towards more and more severe diets, more and more restricted diets. Now, a lot of people follow these days, uh, what, what has been called a carnivore diet, which is, you know, all meat or predominantly, uh, meat with very few other things in it. And I know people, I know patients actually, and, and, and I know people who are thriving on these diets compared to how they felt before. A lot of people say, um, "My joint pain's gone. Um, I've got more energy. My skin's better." So therefore you can see from their perspective that they're feeling better compared to where they were before, yet they're now hearing someone as respected as yourself talk about all the, the benefits of plant foods for the gut microbiome, and I think a lot of these people feel stuck between a rock and a hard place. They, they want to apply what they're learning, but they also know that they feel better on a, on quite a wildly different diet. Um, have you come across this, and do you have any kind of thoughts on that?

Tim Spector 1:27:59 Yeah. Well, like you, I've had people write to me saying, "I've been on a carnivore diet for two years, and I feel great. You know, I don't understand what you're on about." You know, um, and I say, "Well, everyone is different. You could have a unique set of gut microbes that seem to, uh, cope with this." But my worry is that although initially changing from, say, a har- high-carb diet or an ultra-processed food diet to a carnivore diet, y- you will get... uh, you will feel better in a number of ways. Long term, I worry that, you know, we are omnivores, and our gut microbe diversity does depend on giving enough to feed. If you're only eating meat, uh, you're gonna have a very limited range of gut microbes to produce all these chemicals-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:41 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:28:41 ... and vitamins for you. So I would just urge those people, you know, not to give up meat, but to start introducing small amounts-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:49 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:28:49 ... of regular different plants. It doesn't have to be huge quantities, but, uh, you know, it doesn't have to be starchy ones either. It could just be, you know, the leafy green ones, which there is a, a variety. You know, certainly nuts and-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:02 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:29:03 ... and seeds and mushrooms are, you know, also good. Uh, you know, we've, we haven't talked about mushrooms, but-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:09 No

Tim Spector 1:29:09 ... I've, the last few years I've become a real big fan, you know, of this is an amazing source of protein and, uh, nutrition that, um, I think is, you know, probably gonna sa- end up saving the planet as, uh, as we move forward. But, you know, there are lots of, um, nuances, but it, there isn't one size fits all.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:29 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:29:29 And there may be people out there who don't need 30 plants a week. I'm not, uh, saying it is-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:36 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:29:36 ... absolute rule. Uh, I'd love to do some studies on these people.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:39 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:29:39 Uh, so it'd be fantastic if some carnivore dieters did the Zoe study, and we could look at their gut microbes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:45 Well, I have someone-

Tim Spector 1:29:47 Mm. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:47 ... who I'm gonna... someone just for you, actually.

Tim Spector 1:29:50 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:50 Someone who is literally thriving and has tried-

Tim Spector 1:29:53 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:53 ... vegan diets before, has tried low carbs, and literally finds that going full carnivore. And I know this lady super well, and she is thriving. High energy, high cognition, can work all day, can, can run marathons. I'm like, there's something going on here where she is thriving on this diet, and so I'm gonna... I, I'd love to know, so I'm actually gonna talk to her and put her in touch. So-

Tim Spector 1:30:15 Well, you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:16 'Cause that'll be interesting, wouldn't it, what's actually going on in the microbiome?

Tim Spector 1:30:19 Yeah. Well, I mean, w- you know, hopefully in five years we'll be looking back at this and saying, "Well, we didn't know much, did we?" You know, because science-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:26 I'm sure we will

Tim Spector 1:30:26 ... science is, uh, exciting, and it's always changing, and, you know, our views, you know... We, we found a year ago this, this microblastocystis, which is in one in four British people have this parasite. It's not a microbe, it's a parasite, that a few years ago you'd have had to go to the tropical medicine place and they'd have given you powerful antibiotics to get rid of it. 'Cause they said, "Oh, you, that will give you traveler's diarrhea." Now we know that it's associated with good health and lower fat levels. And-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:54 Isn't it associated with lower autoimmune risk as well potentially?

Tim Spector 1:30:57 Yes. It, it dampens down inflammation-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:59 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:30:59 ... visceral fat. Uh, and one in four Britons have it. We've discovered only one in fi- one in 20 Americans have it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:07 Wow.

Tim Spector 1:31:08 But it's in 100% of all hunter, hunter-gatherers, 100% of all, uh, Indians that have been studied, of all developing countries. This is our normal state, to have this parasite. So we still know so little-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:22 Yeah

Tim Spector 1:31:23 ... about what's going on that who knows? There could be hidden fungi or, uh, other, other parasites-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:30 [laughs]

Tim Spector 1:31:30 ... inside our body that love meat and can produce all sorts of chemicals. I'm not ruling it out.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:35 Yeah.

Tim Spector 1:31:35 I'm just saying on average, you know, do be careful because you might get Great short-term benefits, but don't wipe out your microbes, 'cause really hard to get them back

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:45 Yeah. So that's super fascinating that it's in 100% of hunter-gatherers. That is so, so interesting.

Tim Spector 1:31:50 It looks like it's tracking with the amount of ultra-processed food we eat, uh, you know

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:54 As in the more we eat-

Tim Spector 1:31:55 The countries

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:55 ... the less we get?

Tim Spector 1:31:56 Yes, yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:57 Wow. The less-

Tim Spector 1:31:58 But it could also be antibiotic use as well, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:00 Yeah, who knows? Tim, it's always a delight to chat to you. You're a wealth of information, a wealth of knowledge. You're doing incredible work at helping improve the health of the UK, and many people, many hundreds of thousands around the world thank you for that. Just to finish off, um, podcast is called Feel Better, Live More. When we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our lives. You've covered a lot today, but if we were just gonna simplify it right down at the end of this conversation, what are some things that people can think about bringing into their lives to improve the way that they feel?

Tim Spector 1:32:33 Hopefully they will think about food in a completely different way. Think about food as the quality of the food, both for taste, enjoyment, and for your gut microbes. They'll go for a diversity of foods that they can eat. Uh, plants particularly, getting those 30 plants a week. Getting, picking ones high in polyphenols. Getting a regular shot of some fermented food in your diet, and reducing as much as possible ultra-processed foods. And thinking about experimenting with the way they eat, the timings of their meals, skipping breakfast maybe. Uh, tying, trying some m- mild restricted time eating, just to see how you cope with it. And getting, uh, some personalized nutrition testing done, which you can get done in the US or the UK, to really find out much more about yourself and about how you can start this journey to, uh, find the best foods that suit your own body.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:33 Tim, thank you very much. I look forward to part four in a few months when the new book's out, but thanks for joining us today. I really appreciate it.

Tim Spector 1:33:40 Pleasure.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:40 If that conversation resonated with you, here is another incredibly powerful one.

Cameo 1:33:45 Skipping meals is not only good for you, but will make you live longer. The problem is we've built a world that's very comfortable. We did not evolve in these conditions. We are meant to be typically cold and hungry