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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

EVERYTHING You Know About Exercise & Losing Weight IS WRONG... | Erwan Le Corre

Today’s guest is someone who I have wanted to talk to for many years. I first came across him around 10 years ago and was fascinated by his approach to movement and, in particular, natural movement.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostErwan Le Correguest
Mar 29, 20232h 10mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 2:21

    Looking fit vs being fit: redefining fitness as real-world capability

    1. RC

      I think many people regard you as the godfather of natural movement. You have previously said that looking fit and being fit are two different things.

    2. EC

      They are. And, and they're not contradictory. You could be fit and look fit. You could also look fit without really being fit. So you have to understand or to look at fitness in a different way than the conventional way, which is mostly looking at, uh, the surface of the body, the way the body is shaped, uh, which is legitimate. It's good to have a good-looking body. That's a, it's a legit expectation. Uh, but the way I look at it, um, is what is it that your body, a body can do in the real world, in the real life? Not what it can do in the gym, um, and then what it looks like as a, as an outcome, as if that outcome was the only thing that really matters, which is, again, it's, it's legit to want a good-looking body, but at the same time, it's limiting. Um, what we have a body for originally is to be able to move in nature in, in ways that are, uh, adaptable to the, to the environment, environment that's sometimes, that's often changing and sometimes unpredictable, to be able to operate our body in effective ways in the real world. So an example of that would be firefighters. They need a body that's functional so that they can save lives literally. The size of the muscles does not matter. The shape of their body does not matter. Are they going to be able to climb up the stairs or the ladder fast? Are they able to be able to sprint, to l- l- lift or carry or drag a body, uh, to save a life, to, to jump over an obstacle? Those are real-life movements, and those are natural movements that all the movements they do are natural movements-

    3. RC

      Yeah

    4. EC

      ... the skills, jumping, running, lifting, carrying, et cetera.

  2. 2:21 – 6:13

    Making it relevant for everyone: preparedness, simple movement tests, and self-confidence

    1. RC

      So for someone who heard that, Erwan, and was thinking, "Okay, I understand that. For a firefighter-

    2. EC

      Yes

    3. RC

      ... I get it. That's their job."

    4. EC

      Yes.

    5. RC

      Right? They have to be able to go upstairs-

    6. EC

      Uh-huh

    7. RC

      ... rescue someone, put them over their back, carry them away to safety.

    8. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    9. RC

      What has that got to do with me and my life?

    10. EC

      Uh-huh. Right.

    11. RC

      Right?

    12. EC

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      How do you make that relevant for everyone rather than someone whose job depends on it?

    14. EC

      True. Uh, it is a mindset. It's, uh, you, you want to have the mindset of, hey, uh, my desire is to be capable, physically capable in the real world if the need arises. And it, it starts with some of the simplest movements. What is it to be capable in the real world? Well, can you, for instance, from a standing position, sit down without using your arms? It's a very simple, uh, natural movement. Get up, get down. Um, and maybe you try to do that and you find yourself clumsy, losing balance, feeling stiff, um, and not able to just do that.

    15. RC

      Mm.

    16. EC

      That's, that's the simplest level of practical practicality of movement, real world movement. Now, what happens in more challenging situations? Uh, maybe, um, uh, you do need to run fast one day. [laughs] You need to jump, uh, over an obstacle. You need to do that for yourself to get out of, uh, of harm, maybe to help someone, um, a neighbor, a, a child, your own child, uh, your parent. Um-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. EC

      ... there are situations of life that are unexpected. There are. And it's a good idea to prepare yourself physically to be able to, again, operate your body in the most effective way in those situations. And even though such situations may never happen in your life, at least the knowing, the awareness that you could respond properly, effectively, that your body is prepared, um, for these movements, it gives you self-confidence. Self-confidence is very important in life.

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. EC

      If you, if you, um, believe, if you know, well, yeah, if that was to happen, I would be helpless, that's not really a good feeling to feel that way.

    21. RC

      Yeah.

    22. EC

      It's good to feel that you're capable and to know that you're capable. So how do you know you are? Well, you test yourself.

    23. RC

      Yeah. Self-confidence is key.

    24. EC

      Yes.

    25. RC

      And I think self-confidence, in many ways, sits behind everything you have been teaching-

    26. EC

      Yeah

    27. RC

      ... and currently teach.

    28. EC

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      Whether it's natural movement or your new project, the Breath Hold Work Meditation, I think self-confidence is key.

    30. EC

      Key.

  3. 6:13 – 13:08

    A personal story: open-water panic and building capability as a parent

    1. RC

      This is a huge thing for me. You know, my kids are 12 and 10 at the moment, and I don't know. I'll give, I'll give you an example. This isn't, I don't think, directly connected to your work, but I'm sure, I'm sure you can make a connection. Maybe three years ago or so, I did a swimrun event for the first time.

    2. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      Okay? And I had never, ever swum in open water before.

    4. EC

      No?

    5. RC

      Never. I could swim lengths in a local council-

    6. EC

      Yes

    7. RC

      ... pool, right? I'd never been into the sea, right? It's not something my mom and dad took me to do as-

    8. EC

      Uh-huh

    9. RC

      ... as, as a child. You know, they're Indian immigrants coming to the UK. You know, going to the beach, going to the sea was not part of what they wanted to experience or show their kids. But I've always been someone who's willing to throw myself in at the deep end, like I'll try anything. And VivoBarefoot were running the swimrun events.

    10. EC

      Uh-huh.

    11. RC

      I really liked the guys. Uh, I went down. I put a wetsuit on for the very first time that morning ever. I was thinking-

    12. EC

      Wow

    13. RC

      ... "This is pretty tight."

    14. EC

      Yes.

    15. RC

      "I, I, I don't know if this is what it should be."

    16. EC

      [laughs] Everything feels a bit alien to you.

    17. RC

      Everything, everything was alien, right?

    18. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    19. RC

      But here's the thing. Swimrun is a bit of swimming, bit of running, bit of swimming, bit of running, bit of swimming, bit of running. It's a event that originated in Sweden, and the first swim was only 250 meters long.

    20. EC

      Easy distance normally.

    21. RC

      Normally easy distance.

    22. EC

      Normally.

    23. RC

      Right? I went in. After about 50 meters, I had a panic attack. I was scared. I, I couldn't see the bottom, couldn't feel the bottom. I was like, "Oh, man, I'm in the ocean." I wasn't that far from shore. And the whole process, um, it was really scary. Somehow I managed to complete it. I thought, "If I ever get to dry land again, I'm not getting back in this water."

    24. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    25. RC

      Right? But the reality is I did get back in. I thought, "I'll do the next run, and then I'll see." But my inner desire to not be defeated meant I did go. I did the 500 meter swim. I did the one kilometer swim. I did all those things. But it was a struggle. When I completed the event, I felt amazing. Right, why am I telling you that story? The reason I feel that that story's relevant to what you just said about self-confidence is that I didn't like that feeling of being helpless in the ocean.

    26. EC

      Yes.

    27. RC

      I thought, "I'm a dad. If I'm ever on holiday and my kids are in the ocean, I can't do anything because I can't even manage myself, let alone manage the children." And I'm a... People would regard me as a fit, strong guy, right? I could go to the gym and work on the mirror muscles, right? And I could look good, but in that moment, I, I was powerless. So what did I do? A few weeks later on holiday, I got some open water swimming lessons, and now I'm a competent open water swimmer. I've taken my son on a swimrun. We were in Cannes in France, big waves, windy, gale conditions. I'm swimming with him no problem. So why this is relevant to your work, I feel, is that I wouldn't let it defeat me. It, I felt incapable as a father, and by conquering that fear, by now mastering it-

    28. EC

      Yes

    29. RC

      ... like, I'm not gonna swim the English Channel or anything like that, but I feel now that if I'm on holiday this summer with my kids-

    30. EC

      Yes

  4. 13:08 – 14:50

    Beyond trackers and protocols: the value of immeasurable experience

    1. EC

      You know? There's that era or, the era, that trend of, uh, self-quantification. You wanna measure everything. You've got wearables on your body, trackers. Um, you go to the gym. You have a program-

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm

    3. EC

      ... you have data, you have this and that, and evidence-based protocols, this and that. That's, that's fine. It can be useful. It has a place. Um, there is all the immeasurable part of ourselves that is completely [laughs] left behind in, in that approach. And, um, what can you quantify? Like, speaking about that specific experience of you throwing yourself in that water, and it's wild, and you feel the, the cold, and it's dark, or you don't know what's the bottom, and there are a lot of unknown there. And so now you're facing your legit- legitimate fears, apprehensions, like, what is, what is this? How do, how do I manage this? Your resiliency, your psychological resiliency to overcome that and to anyways go through it, how do you quantify that? Is, is, is it even worthy of trying to quantify that? It's completely irrelevant. It's, it's pure experience. We don't need data. We don't need evidence. We don't need any tracker. We don't need any quantification of what's happening in your heart, in your brain, in your body, in all of that. Forget about that because the most important is how you perform, not just physically, but mentally, how you overcome. That's what is at the core of the experience. That's the beauty of it. That's the, the gold in it, and you don't wanna quantify that. You just wanna experience that. It's very pure. Leave it that way.

  5. 14:50 – 18:25

    Why movement became mechanical: specialization, gym machines, and losing versatility

    1. RC

      When many of us think of movement these days or fitness, my feeling is that it's all getting a bit mechanical and a bit protocol-driven.

    2. EC

      Yeah

    3. RC

      And I think we're missing the humanness, the innate humanness of movement.

    4. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    5. RC

      I wonder where this comes from

    6. EC

      I think it comes from, um, sports, from, uh, specialization. Um, it comes from the expectation of results, and therefore, if you have a protocol, you aim at specific results. They are limited results, um, but they are quantifiable. There's a path. Everything is like, you know, you follow a route. It's simple. You don't have to think too much. You just follow the program. And then you can say, "Hey, I've added, uh, 50 pounds. I've added, uh, that amount of time, and, and this and that." Um, and that idea of, uh, it has to be the most effective program to get that aspect of my fitness, you know, higher than what it was. Um, whereas what's the original human nature talking about is let's remember all of us universally when we were kids, where we... Did we need a program? So, uh, a fitness program? Um, to, uh... Did we need to go to the gym and exercise on machines so we could stand up and walk?

    7. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    8. EC

      No. All the, uh, essential, most fundamental, uh, movement patterns, movement abilities, movement skills that we developed, the strength that goes with it that, that's necessary, the, the coordination, the proprioception, interoception, all the, it's extremely sophisticated when we look at the science of it. And yet we didn't need even to know how to speak to be able to speak the language-

    9. RC

      Mm

    10. EC

      ... of movement, to learn movement, to explore movement, to play with it, to, and to become adaptable. That's the program. It's very intuitive. Then we can always become more technical and systematic in specific outcomes, specific-

    11. RC

      Mm

    12. EC

      ... uh, aspects of progress that we want. But, uh, we wanna give ourselves also back that freedom of-

    13. RC

      Yeah

    14. EC

      ... I, I have a body. I wanna explore it. It's... And, and no, instead of that, sit on that machine, and the, that machine, it's an exercise machine. It's very serious. It's going to dictate the exact movement pattern that you can do on that machine. Your legs can move that way, not that way. Your arms can move that way, not that way. You're going to isolate your body in different body parts.

    15. RC

      Yeah

    16. EC

      You're gonna work them out isolately. They're gonna be strong individually, but do they know how to work together? And then do they know how to adapt to a variation in the environment where you move? No.

    17. RC

      No.

    18. EC

      It's only if you practice natural movement that this is going to happen. As long as you place yourself in that environment where it's mechanical, the machines shape and dictate and therefore restrict your movement, and it's like work.

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. EC

      It's, it's like work. C- now you count 10. Why 10? I don't know, just convention. Do 10, 10 on the left, 10 on the right, or 10 with my legs and 10 with my arms

    21. RC

      Yeah

    22. EC

      Today I'll doing upper body. Tomorrow I'm doing lower body. It's okay.

    23. RC

      Yeah

  6. 18:25 – 25:56

    Humans as animals: play, exploration, and rebuilding a natural movement foundation

    1. EC

      It's, it's one approach of, you know, looking at the body, looking at fitness. Um, my, my approach is very simple. How should the tiger train to become and stay fit? What's the program for them? Should we bring them into a gym and say, "Hey, you're gonna do this, uh, for your strength. You'll acquire power, and then you'll do that for your cardio. Add a bit of stretching and now you're good to go. We'll plunk you back in the jungle or somewhere so you can hunt animals," and, and, and, you know, [laughs] it doesn't make any sense. Um-

    2. RC

      But we get that. It sounds ridiculous-

    3. EC

      It does

    4. RC

      ... when you say that about-

    5. EC

      I know

    6. RC

      ... a tiger.

    7. EC

      Yes.

    8. RC

      But many of us don't see that we as humans are animals as well, and we're living in a kind of zoo-

    9. EC

      Yes

    10. RC

      ... whereby [laughs] we, we-

    11. EC

      Yes, a zoo, a farm of whatever that is

    12. RC

      Yeah

    13. EC

      And, uh-

    14. RC

      But anyone with a cat or a dog will know, you know, cats will stretch, they'll stretch their entire body-

    15. EC

      Yes, since they're little, little ones, little cubs like baby animals are just like human animals, like the cutest thing on earth. Adorable.

    16. RC

      Yeah.

    17. EC

      And what is it that they all want to do universally? Right? It's the baby, the, the human baby, the, the-

    18. RC

      Yeah

    19. EC

      ... the little tiger, uh, the little baby pet, whatever, whichever, whatever the species is. They want to play, they want to move, they try, they experiment, all kind of things. They roll and they fall and they fail, and that's why they're so cute. And then they, they repeat a lot. They explore one thing.

    20. RC

      Mm.

    21. EC

      They're like, "Oh, oh, that was fun. That's new. Oh, I repeat a lot and fail and do it again," and t- and that's how they learn to master their body, to make it become effective. And when you look at it, it's a, a, a program. It's a, it's a drive, it's a universal drive. And they're going to have a natural movements. What is their natural movement? It's a, it's a whole scope of natural movements that are specific to their species. So obviously the natural movement of the dolphin is not the natural movement of the eagle, not the natural movement of the giraffe. And the natural movement of the human being, you know, we don't need to do bear crawls or crab crawls or whatever, kangaroo. Why? Because w- we are not these animals. It can be fun to pretend that sometimes that we're, "Oh, I'm a wolf, I'm a..."

    22. RC

      Yeah

    23. EC

      "All right, I'm a frog." Fine. But human beings are very versatile in the way they move. And few, few species on earth can do all the things that humans can do. We can run, we can jump, we can balance.

    24. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    25. EC

      We can move on all fours. We can, um, climb things. We can lift and carry things. We can throw and catch things. We can, um-

    26. RC

      Yeah

    27. EC

      ... fight. We can go, go in the water, swim. We can hold our breath and dive. It's incredible. You know, ask a dolphin to climb up a tree, it's gonna be alien to them. So we have a- an incredible potential for a wide variety of movement abilities. And remember you, you were saying, "Hey, when I was a kid, I wanted to do all these movements" And what limited you?

    28. RC

      Society, school, parenting fear.

    29. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    30. RC

      You know?

  7. 25:56 – 42:05

    Body image pressures: physique-first training, psychological drives, and functional gaps

    1. RC

      We were querying, where does this come from? Where, you know, where has the drive or where has the impetus been for us, for many of us, to get so far removed from that natural human movement? You mentioned sport could be one of those reasons. But I think there's another reason. Um, I think if I reflect on my own life, I remember being in my secondary school changing room.

    2. EC

      Mm.

    3. RC

      I was at an all-boys school. And I remember getting ready for, I don't know, football or PE or something and feeling really self-conscious that I was this skinny Indian kid, that you could see my ribs.

    4. EC

      The same here. [laughs]

    5. RC

      Yeah. But-

    6. EC

      Except not Indian.

    7. RC

      But [laughs] yeah, so-

    8. EC

      Skinny. So it's the same feeling inside. It's the same experience.

    9. RC

      Yeah. There's, there's something there where you think, "Wow, I don't like this." And I wonder if it was at the same time where Men's Health was starting to come out-

    10. EC

      Oh, yeah

    11. RC

      ... and be in prominence.

    12. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    13. RC

      I, I can't say it was 100%, but I do remember around the time of 16, 17, me reading Men's Health religiously.

    14. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    15. RC

      And I remember one day coming back from school thinking, "Right, I'm sick of being this skinny kid."

    16. EC

      Yeah.

    17. RC

      And I became obsessed with doing press-ups and sit-ups pretty much every day.

    18. EC

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      Sure, yeah, you build up pecs and you-

    20. EC

      At what age?

    21. RC

      I don't know, but I'm gonna guess around 14.

    22. EC

      14, 14, 15.

    23. RC

      Something like that.

    24. EC

      Yes.

    25. RC

      Right? But here's the funny thing is that, you know, from the outside, you could probably look good.

    26. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    27. RC

      You know? You've got a good physique. But then in my 20s, I was crippled with backache, right?

    28. EC

      Yes.

    29. RC

      So I looked on the outside that I had a really good physique, but functionally [laughs] I couldn't do much, right? I couldn't lift chairs around the house, sofas. I couldn't move beds, you know, because my back would go, and all these sort of things. And there's a long story there.

    30. EC

      Mm.

  8. 42:05 – 51:40

    Starting simple: playful natural movement, martial-art-style skill building, and permission to move

    1. RC

      They feel frustrated, and then they might listen to this podcast or other podcasts or hear people and go, "Right, I need to move more." And for that person who's listening, Erwan, who goes, "Look, I don't look like you. I, I-- You talk about running and sprinting and swimming. I just wanna get some movement into my life."

    2. EC

      Yes.

    3. RC

      What would you say to that person?

    4. EC

      Yeah. Well, well, it, it, it can be so simple.

    5. RC

      How simple?

    6. EC

      How simple is, um, uh, moving on all fours? It's, uh, balancing on a simple board. It's, uh, hanging and swinging. It's lifting objects and carrying them on a few steps, like, like the most simple and most basic. It's exploring a variety of movement patterns that have always been around in your life, the same way you did when you were a little kid.

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. EC

      And if you have kid, kids yourself, if you're a parent-

    9. RC

      [laughs]

    10. EC

      ... just, just join them. You know? [laughs] That's, that's the simplest. It's like, why don't you participate? They're showing you the way, the way that you've forgotten, right? Then, of course, you can always-- Because what we teach, the, the MovNat method that I've designed was, okay, um, of course it may not be, uh, sufficient to just tell people, "Oh, you just have to move naturally. It's gonna happen. You know, you're gonna move better very quickly. It's, you know, reawaken to your birthright, to your natural potential. You'll, you'll move, uh, beautifully in no time." It does not always happen like that, in fact. So you can also approach it a little more like a martial art. And the idea, in fact, what, what is a martial art? Um, it's the idea of, uh, defending y- yourself, and it's to fight also when you have to. Isn't it an innate ability that we all have to defend ourselves? Don't we have some basic ability to kick and throw a fist, or want to bite or want to grapple or something? We all played-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. EC

      ... like that when we were kids, right? So what is it that a, um, a martial art is going to teach you? Efficiency, techniques, so that you can turn what's an innate, instinctive ability into a skill, a, uh, an ability to perform those innate movements in a way that's the most efficient possible. And that's why when you show up to a dojo or a, you know, MMA academy, whatever, they're not looking at you and be like, "Eh, you look a little skinny," or, "You, you know, maybe you're a little overweight. How about you go to the gym and do some physical conditioning, come back when you're fit enough?" That's not the, [laughs] that's not the way it works. They just take you as you are. You practice the movements. You become mindful. You'll learn to better operate your body. You'll learn the, the sequence and the timing of-

    13. RC

      Yeah

    14. EC

      ... the positions and all. And as you be- you repeat mindfully the movement, you become more efficient in those movements. Physiological adaptations happen that you are going to lose that weight. You're going to, uh, grow those muscles. You're gonna get stronger. You're gonna get more flexible, et cetera. Everything falls into place that way. Okay. Expand that idea to all, the whole scope of natural movement abilities. You can-- Anyone has a basic ability to run or to jump-

    15. RC

      Yeah

    16. EC

      ... or to move on all fours. What's there to learn?

    17. RC

      [laughs]

    18. EC

      Well, you can do it, and then similarly to a m- martial art approach, then you can learn techniques to become more efficient at those techniques. But first, have some fun. Just explore, move, feel free, feel ex- you know, amazing because you're given permission to move in ways that you probably forgot and you haven't done in so long.

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. EC

      And maybe you were prevented as a kid to do that. So what you said, joy, enjoyment, um, so important because you're very much more likely to stick to a practice of something that you enjoy doing-

    21. RC

      Yeah

    22. EC

      ... than something that feels like a chore. And when you look at it, for most people, going to the gym feels like a chore. They have to force themselves to do it. It feels like a punishment for supposedly being lazy or whatever judgment they have about themselves or their body. We wanna inspire them to be like, "Look, you got it. You got a natural body. It has already amazing abilities. You just need to reawaken that potential, and then we'll support you. We'll teach you, you know, great techniques so you can really become great-"

    23. RC

      Yeah.

    24. EC

      "... at those movements."

    25. RC

      Yeah.

    26. EC

      Yeah.

    27. RC

      I love that. I mean, it is-- Thinking about how we make enjoyable movement more accessible to more people, you can't really go far wrong with natural movement because you don't need to get anything. You don't need to buy anything necessarily. You don't need to-

    28. EC

      Yeah

    29. RC

      ... travel to a specific location that is designed for movement, right? [laughs] The more you start to analyze these things, the more kind of crazy they start to sound a little bit, that-

    30. EC

      Yes

  9. 51:40 – 1:04:39

    Mindfulness and the ‘chore’ problem: why natural movement demands presence

    1. RC

      It, it's, it's funny, like abs are something that a lot of people want, right? A lot of people want abs. But what you realize-

    2. EC

      [laughs]

    3. RC

      ... is, and you will know this, but I've experienced in my own life, um, like I've been working with this, uh... I, I really dislike calling Helen a running coach because I think it is such a limiting label for what she does, and the impact she's had on my life has been absolutely phenomenal.

    4. EC

      Wonderful.

    5. RC

      But as she helps me to unlock more of how my body is designed to move-

    6. EC

      Mm-hmm

    7. RC

      ... your abs just start showing. You, you can start to feel your abs because your body's working in the way it's designed. So we have never done a single ab exercise, but just by properly, you know, proper rotation with your torso as you're running, proper m- uh, muscle sequencing as you move naturally-

    8. EC

      Whole body movements

    9. RC

      ... whole body movement.

    10. EC

      Whole body movements. And, and the, the abs-

    11. RC

      It happens

    12. EC

      ... are right in the middle. They have to connect.

    13. RC

      They have to connect. But this whole idea, what I remember reading Men's Health as a 14, 15-year-old, and now with my understanding of the human body and biomechanics, thinking, I will have completely messed up my body's movement-

    14. EC

      [laughs]

    15. RC

      ... by being in this sort of crunch position, trying to actively tense-

    16. EC

      Yes

    17. RC

      ... my abs so that I could look in the mirror and go-

    18. EC

      So that they could show, because like people want abs. Like, what do you mean?

    19. RC

      I know.

    20. EC

      You have abs. Your abs are, you know, they're-

    21. RC

      It's crazy

    22. EC

      ... they're right there. What you want is to make them visible so that you feel good about your body and it's makes you feel good in your psyche. That's it. That's-

    23. RC

      But it's conditioned, 'cause the, the-

    24. EC

      It is conditioning

    25. RC

      ... uh, and the more we're having this conversation, Erwan, the more I think, I think there's a real, I think there's a mental health component here. I also think something that's been coming up for me over the last 5, 10 minutes is this idea that whenever we detach or separate the outcome of what we want from the actual natural process that would lead to it, we cause problems. So like with abs, right? We don't do the natural movements that would mean we end up having strong functional abs. We wanna leapfrog that and do the ab movement-

    26. EC

      Just do the minimum. Just-

    27. RC

      ... to do the, to, to get the abs

    28. EC

      ... do the specific, uh-

    29. RC

      But, but then also, um, I had a patient once who had really bad body dysmorphia.

    30. EC

      Mm-hmm.

  10. 1:04:39 – 1:16:45

    Modern sedentary life, brain function, and mental health: movement as primal stimulation

    1. RC

      I'm trying to think about practicalities, and you're talking about the swimming pool. To make it really granular and specific, I guess if someone listening likes to swim, well, at the end of the swimming pool, instead of taking the stairs out, you could just practice pushing yourself up.

    2. EC

      Yes.

    3. RC

      I know it's, it's a simple thing, right?

    4. EC

      Yes.

    5. RC

      But it came to my head to think that's kind of natural movement. You're in a, a body of water, and you are using your arm, and you, you have to coordinate everything in order to move your mass up.

    6. EC

      It is completely a natural movement.

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. EC

      And climbing up the ladder would be a natural movement, too.

    9. RC

      That's true.

    10. EC

      Standing, walking are natural movement. Sitting down, even on a chair, is a natural movement. Um, carrying bags of groceries, those are natural movements. They are-

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. EC

      All those are pra- natural movement is everywhere in our life. Since day one and every day, nobody's sitting on their couch all day and having no movement to do to be able to make a living or to take care of themselves, feed themselves, a- et cetera. The scope of the movements that, of the natural movements that we perform on a day-to-day basis has been absurdly limited, absurdly shrunk to a strict minimum of what, what do you do? Okay, so you, you, you sleep in, on a bed all night. You're lying down. Then you stand up, and maybe go to, go to the shower. You stand. You shower. Then you're gonna sit and have maybe a breakfast. Then you're gonna s- uh, walk a few steps to go to your car or to your home office, and you're gonna sit again, or you're gonna commute. Sit while you commute in whichever way. Go to an office. Sit more, and you walk a few steps to go to the coffee machine or something.

    13. RC

      [laughs]

    14. EC

      Right? And then you're done with your work, so you commute back. You're probably going to sit back in some kind of either a train, a metro. Um, then they're gonna, uh, be back home, feel tired, sit more, and then occupy themselves even maybe doing some more work or watching a show, going social media. Hopefully, you know, uh, having a relationship with someone or with family and, you know-

    15. RC

      Yeah

    16. EC

      ... having some interaction. And then it's time to go back to bed. So when you look at if you were to film every single movement as a continuum and accelerate it and make, uh, let's say 14, 16 ... hours of wake life into one minute or two minute, it goes super fast, and then all you see is mostly sitting and a few, like, moments where you stand up, sit back down, walk a few steps. How do you walk? With shoes on, on l- flat, stable, linear, predictable surfaces. Where's the challenge? Where's the variety? Where's the variability? Where's the intensity? What's your body, body doing? Not much, and yet you may feel exhausted in your body. You know why? It's not because you do too much with your body, it's because you don't do enough with your body, so it doesn't have any more [laughs] energy because it does not have to deploy anything. It's, it doesn't have to adapt to anything, and that is going to have an impact on your brain.

    17. RC

      Mm.

    18. EC

      It's gonna depress you because the reason why we have a brain, and a neurologist, uh, will, will confirm that, explain that, actually, is that we have a brain for movement.

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. EC

      We don't have a brain to talk about abstract things, even though that's one of the wonderful things the brain can do, is high level cognition-

    21. RC

      Yeah

    22. EC

      ... abstract, uh, considerations and interpretations and... But originally, the reason why we have a brain is that we can move in adaptable ways through complex, changing, sometimes unpredictable environment. This is something that, you know, MIT, like, they have, in the robotics they have a, a big challenge having robots doing that even though they are, like, really making fast progress in that direction. That's really scary. But the ability to do that means a, a, an amazing computer, which is the brain. Because what is it that you do when you move in nature?

    23. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    24. EC

      Not in our conventional, predictable, safe environments, indoors environment. It's fortune-telling almost. It's like you have to predict-

    25. RC

      Mm

    26. EC

      ... where you're going, how you're gonna get there, and adapt on the way because you have visual input, you have sensor input. You're like, "Oh, I need to modify my pos- my position like this and like that." You can't think about that. Your thinking is too slow to handle that, "Oh, I'm going to extend my leg forward."

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. EC

      "Where we'll place my foot there?" This is too slow. You do not need to think to move well. However, you must be present, and you must be aware, and you must be alert and responsive-

    29. RC

      Yeah

    30. EC

      ... by sensation. And all, your brain is going to compute all of that in, at an extremely fast, uh, speed, and that's how you move well. That's why we have a brain. So there are those, um, little organisms, I believe the name is, uh, sea squirt. They, they're floating, um, and they have a tiny, tiny brain, I don't know, like two neurons brain.

  11. 1:16:45 – 1:25:03

    Shift to Breath Hold Work Meditation: what it is and why it’s different

    1. RC

      I could talk about natural movement with you-

    2. EC

      [laughs]

    3. RC

      ... for hours. But one of the reasons I invited you onto the show was because you have this new course, Breathhold Work Meditation-

    4. EC

      Mm-hmm

    5. RC

      ... which has been transformative for me.

    6. EC

      Wow.

    7. RC

      I have done many courses. I've done a lot of studying around breathwork. I've done many breathwork courses. Your course was like nothing else I'd ever done, and the insights I gained from it were like nothing else as well. And-

    8. EC

      Fantastic

    9. RC

      ... the reason I invite you onto the show is 'cause I, I, I want to talk about this course.

    10. EC

      Yeah.

    11. RC

      I think it's brilliant. I think more people should do it. I think there's so much learning to have. But we need to sort of go step by step so that people understand what it is.

    12. EC

      Yes.

    13. RC

      So from my perspective-

    14. EC

      Mm

    15. RC

      ... I did a four-week online course with you twice a week, right?

    16. EC

      Yes.

    17. RC

      And on the outside, it's about breathholds.

    18. EC

      Yes.

    19. RC

      But I don't really think it is about breathholds even though breathholds is the mechanism.

    20. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    21. RC

      It's what you experience. I think it's about so much more than that, but the breathhold is the practice to get you to learn all kinds of insights about yourself. But top line was that on day one, when you on the course asked everyone to take an in breath and then to see how long they could hold it for-

    22. EC

      Yes

    23. RC

      ... I could do one minute. Four weeks later, and I didn't do that much practice, it was something like four minutes 20, four minutes 30, something like that. So over four times the breathhold time in four weeks.

    24. EC

      I remember.

    25. RC

      Which was incredible-

    26. EC

      Mm

    27. RC

      ... and still is incredible. And I know all the students who, who go through your course double, triple, quadruple-

    28. EC

      Yes

    29. RC

      ... and more their, their breathhold time-

    30. EC

      Several times

  12. 1:25:03 – 1:52:37

    Not a trick: contrasting hyperventilation methods and training the mind in discomfort

    1. RC

      And this is the uniqueness and the magic in the course- Which is why for me it's been so transformative and why I, I've not come across anything like it anywhere in everything that I've done and I've studied and written about, is because what happens is, first of all, it's very, very different from Wim Hof.

    2. EC

      Yes.

    3. RC

      Okay? And I think it's important to make that clear-

    4. EC

      Yes

    5. RC

      ... because I was at an event in LA years ago and Wim Hof was speaking, and he said to this room that, "You know, in within 20 minutes, I'm gonna have you all holding your breath for three minutes."

    6. EC

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      I didn't believe it was gonna happen, but it did. But that was all done because of hyperventilation.

    8. EC

      Yes.

    9. RC

      So I don- I think a lot of people don't fully understand that when you do, uh, the, the hyperventilation method, you do all these big in breaths and out breaths, you're blowing off a lot of carbon dioxide.

    10. EC

      Yes.

    11. RC

      So as I w- I was explaining to my kids last night when you were-

    12. EC

      Yes

    13. RC

      ... with us over dinner, it's like if carbon dioxide is one of the, uh... Rising is one of the drives to breathe, and you artificially lower carbon dioxide by breathing out in a fast fashion-

    14. EC

      Yes

    15. RC

      ... like you do with his technique, well, it's relatively easy then to hold your breath for longer than you would because you've, you've lowered your carbon dioxide.

    16. EC

      Yes.

    17. RC

      So you're getting back to baseline and then rising.

    18. EC

      Yes.

    19. RC

      Whereas your method has none of that hyperventilation.

    20. EC

      No.

    21. RC

      So it's a lot calmer.

    22. EC

      Yes.

    23. RC

      It's a lot quieter. And then I would say certainly for me, the insights that I've gleaned are much, much greater. Like, and, and I've spoken to other people who've done the course, and they all say the same thing because I understand hyperventilation has its role for some people. Some people seem to get benefits, okay? I, I, I'm not trying to underplay that in any way, and I think it's really key to explain that your method is very different from that. You're not tricking the system first.

    24. EC

      Yes.

    25. RC

      You're totally calm, so the urge to breathe comes quickly. Sometimes I've been at 30 seconds, 40 seconds thinking, "Oh, I need to breathe," but then by controlling my mind using the method you taught me, I can do another two minutes.

    26. EC

      Yes.

    27. RC

      I'm so passionate about it because what I've learned, Erwan, is, and why I think this crossover to every aspect of my life, and I think why people will get lower stress, lower anxiety, they'll be getting triggered less by the world around them, is because in that moment where your body is screaming for you to take a breath, you have taught me that even then, if you can quieten your mind and your thoughts and quieten your body and your whole being-

    28. EC

      Yes

    29. RC

      ... you can keep going.

    30. EC

      You can.

  13. 1:52:37 – 2:07:55

    How to try it and what changes: free initiation, respiratory rate, and daily practice as self-knowledge

    1. RC

      For someone who's interested-

    2. EC

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... or, uh, and they're thinking about maybe doing your online course, right?

    4. EC

      Yeah. Yeah.

    5. RC

      But they wanna give it a go first themselves, right?

    6. EC

      Yes.

    7. RC

      Is there a simple practice that anyone listening to this podcast can actually experiment with themselves?

    8. EC

      Yes. Actually, on the, on the breathholdwork.com, uh, on the Breath Hold Work website, we have a free initiation. Um, it's a video, and that's, that's one exercise because, you know, there are s- a variety of exercises. There are diverse ways to hold your breath. Um, it can be on full lungs. It can be with after an exhale. It can be, um, pushed to a certain degree. It can be a short recovery, can be longer recovery. It can be you h- you know, there's, there are diverse ways, you know, to structure the time that you spend holding your breath. Uh, so that free initiation is one simple exercise, 10 minutes, and during this 10 minutes, um, you will breathe, uh, you will, uh, breathe slowly, you know, hold your breath. It's, it's, it's... I'll let people just go there and discover-

    9. RC

      Right

    10. EC

      ... the, the exercise. It's great to do, by the way, before you go to bed. I've heard a lot of-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. EC

      ... people fall asleep. Like, they're like, "It's incredible. I realized after doing that, that exercise, I fell asleep like a baby. I slept like a baby-

    13. RC

      Yeah

    14. EC

      ... the whole night."

    15. RC

      What's interesting about that for me is that when I spoke to James Nestor and Patrick McKeown, one of the things that was coming up was how, and I know you talk about this as well online on your course, that many of us are breathing too fast.

    16. EC

      Too fast.

    17. RC

      We take too many breaths.

    18. EC

      Mm-hmm.

    19. RC

      Um, yes, we're breathing more through the mouth. You know, we should be breathing predominantly through the nose, and we should be breathing, uh, in a lot, a lot slower than we do. And we did this on the course, but what I found, and I know you found with most of your students, is without trying to actively slow down our breathing, by doing the practice-

    20. EC

      Yes

    21. RC

      ... by doing the breath hold work, your breathing rate naturally comes down.

    22. EC

      Yes. So we're talking about our respiratory rate. It's-

    23. RC

      Yeah

    24. EC

      ... uh, we're talking about how many breath cycles we take per minute at rest. So, um, as a simple way to, uh, calculate that, uh, one breath cycle is one inhale, one exhale. You start a timer. Um, you inhale, you exhale, one breath cycle. And without trying to change anything, without trying to consciously change the way you naturally, spontaneously breathe, you count how many breath cycles you take in one minute. At the end of that course, with that breath-holding practice, all the students notice, except those who already had a naturally low-

    25. RC

      Yeah

    26. EC

      ... respiratory rate, but all those, and that could include young individuals, fit, that do, you know, they run, they're physically active, and they have, like, 17 breath cycles per minute, 14, and then they're down to eight-

    27. RC

      Yeah

    28. EC

      ... or less.

    29. RC

      What should you have?

    30. EC

      So James Nestor, uh, talks about that.

  14. 2:07:55 – 2:10:53

    Closing reflections: tools for a good life, movement as spirit, and gratitude

    1. EC

      Likewise

    2. RC

      ... talking to you on the show. It's been great hanging out with you. You're someone I've, uh, been watching from afar for many years. I know you've inspired-

    3. EC

      Oh, likewise

    4. RC

      ... previous guests on this show, Tony Riddle, The Foot Collective.

    5. EC

      Great work, great messengers. Yeah.

    6. RC

      And you- you've- you've done a great job at bringing the message of natural movement to so many people, and inspiring many others to keep, uh, sharing that message, which is wonderful. And I really feel now, I don't know if I'd call it a reinvention or a iteration. Like, I know you're still passionate about natural movement-

    7. EC

      Completely

    8. RC

      ... but I feel that this fits very much alongside it, but is again something very fresh and exciting that people can engage with if they choose to. So I thank you for that cause.

    9. EC

      Thank you, Rangan. Thank you. Well, you know, I- I am a human being. I, uh, like all human beings that we are, we face, uh, challenges in- in this life. Uh, we- we- we do our best to make the sense of this experience that we're going through. And, uh, we all need, uh, tools and practices and, you know, there are ways to optimize that experience to- to- to make it better. That's what we want. It's the good life, good experience. And so through natural movement, what I realized, okay, this is missing from society. Where's the freedom to just do the things that we all wanna do when we're kids? And- and then, uh, or even it was never just physical, and that's why in my book I- I say, "When I move naturally, m- move in the woods, when I move the way I'm- I'm designed to move, it's, um, it's a physical ex- experience or expression of my spirit, and it's a spiritual experience of my body." And- and then with that breathwork practice, it, uh, becomes even more this inner journey, inner exploration, inner practice, but it's still through the body-

    10. RC

      Mm-hmm

    11. EC

      ... because the body never goes away. Everything that we experience is through the body. So, um, what I believe I've found through my experience, through my quest, through my personal research, I am eager to share for others to benefit as well. Uh, that's what I'm teaching what I'm teaching.

    12. RC

      Well, we appreciate that, Erwan.

    13. EC

      [laughs]

    14. RC

      Thanks for coming on the show.

    15. EC

      Thank you. Thank you.

    16. RC

      [upbeat music] If you enjoyed that conversation, I think you are really going to enjoy this one about the crucial importance of strength training.

    17. SP

      The reality is, is we are not over fat. We are under muscled. The healthier your muscle mass is, the greater your survivability across nearly all disease states, cancer, cardiovascular disease, dementia, obesity. If the people listening execute on the following advice that I'm going to give, they will change the trajectory of the way in which they age

Episode duration: 2:10:53

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