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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

Giving up Alcohol May Change Your Life with Andy Ramage | FBLM Podcast

How does alcohol fit into your life? Have you ever given it any thought? My guest on this week’s podcast is Andy Ramage, a performance coach and author.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostAndy Ramageguest
Nov 27, 20191h 48mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 0:04

    Intro

    1. RC

      [upbeat music]

  2. 0:04 – 3:37

    Meeting Again and Andy's Mission for Middle Lane Drinkers

    1. RC

      Andy, welcome to the podcast.

    2. AR

      Thank you. It's an absolute pleasure to be here.

    3. RC

      So you made quite a journey to get here, right?

    4. AR

      Well, I'm inspired. I, I actually listened to the latest podcast, which was, uh, Shane O'Mara, I think-

    5. RC

      Yeah

    6. AR

      ... about walking, and I thought, "Why not walk?" So I walked for an hour to get here. I stopped off, had a cheeky haircut.

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. AR

      Got prepared.

    9. RC

      I thought you got a haircut as well. [laughs]

    10. AR

      [laughs] I had to have a haircut. It's, I may as well. I was gonna try and get a shave as well. I thought, "Treat myself."

    11. RC

      [laughs]

    12. AR

      If I could've got a massage, I would have done before I got here. But it is great to see you. I think the last time that we met, albeit very briefly, was at the Edinburgh Wellness Festival, and you might not remember. I quickly-

    13. RC

      I remember very well, mate.

    14. AR

      Uh-

    15. RC

      But you tell the story.

    16. AR

      Yeah, it was, it was sort of two years ago, and, uh, popped over and said hello. And, and Ruari and I had, had just given a talk. It was one of our first ever talks. We'd done a load of practice about it, and we arrived in the room. There was about 50 people in the room, not very many. And at the end we were gonna s- do a book signing. It was our first ever book signing, and what's funny about it, I left the room slowly after everyone else, and I suddenly saw this queue. This queue was massive. It was off the scale, and I'm thinking, "Oh my God, this is so exciting." And then I did the maths and thought, "Hold on, there was only about 50 people watching us. There must be 300 people in this queue." It's literally going out of the assembly rooms, and I scan to the front of the queue, and there you were-

    17. RC

      [laughs]

    18. AR

      ... signing your books. And I thought to myself, "That's a first. I've just had queue envy. There's a new experience."

    19. RC

      Ah.

    20. AR

      And next to it there was a pile of our books and one person. I can't even call that a queue. But anyway, uh, it was fantastic. I was so pleased that one person had showed up to have their book signed by us. So it's lovely to see you again.

    21. RC

      Well, I, I, I, I actually, um, I do remember that very well, actually. And I think I was a bit deer in headlights at the time because my first book, The 4 Pillar Plan, had just come out a few weeks beforehand, and it was the first time I'd literally been on the road and talking about it, and I actually do remember that queue, 'cause I think it took me about three hours to finish.

    22. AR

      It was unbelievable.

    23. RC

      Um, and I, and I, you know, I felt so lucky.

    24. AR

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      But I do remember you, um, on your way out just, um, you just sort of sh- gave me a copy of the book and said, "We should talk. I'd love to talk to you on the podcast." Um, and at that time I was like, "Yeah, yeah, no worries. It sounds great." And it's been on my list since then, and things have just got manic, so I've not [laughs] actually been able to follow up on that. And of course we've been interacting for about six months now-

    26. AR

      Yeah

    27. RC

      ... trying to get this sorted. Um, but look, you know, I have been really excited about talking to you because I suspect if you went and did an event now, there'd be many more people coming up to talk to you afterwards, 'cause I think your story is super inspiring. And everything you do really now is about helping people understand their relationship with alcohol. Is that fair to say?

    28. AR

      Oh, absolutely. It's trying to present a different message around alcohol, that actually it's not this thing that you need to give up. You actually gain a massive advantage by taking a break. So it's a new message. It's a fresh message. It's not fire and brimstone or pointing the finger. It's like, just take a break and see what happens. You know? And if you get stunning results, keep going, and that's really starting to resonate with people.

    29. RC

      Yeah. No, I love it. And, and I guess, I mean, you started today talking about Edinburgh, and we'll probably circle back to Edinburgh a bit later because Edinburgh is where I was a student. And I think my own relationship with alcohol was very much formed in Edinburgh. And so I think there is some sort of nice, um, you know, there, there's something there that actually we met also [laughs] in Edinburgh for the first time.

    30. AR

      Yeah.

  3. 3:37 – 7:42

    From Feeling "Meh" as a Broker to Questioning Alcohol

    1. AR

      Yeah, for me it was very clear. It was in my mid-30s. I'd sort of reached that conventional place where happiness apparently resides. You know, I had the car and the big job and the lovely family and all those type of trappings. And I remember reaching this place thinking, "I feel a bit meh, a bit average." I think like many people, like a five out of 10. I was overweight, stressed out, maxed out, unfit, unhealthy. Um, and as part of that process, I decided to leave my job as a broker to start a new firm because I was convinced there has to be more to life than this. You know, when I looked around the rest of the city, I saw people that were, quote-unquote, more successful than me, broken bodies, broken minds, broken homes, and I was like, "I don't aspire to that. What's the point? I want to do something different. I wanna come back. I wanna build a foundation of wellness and vitality, and from there, peak performance." So I had nine months off, which was fantastic. Gardening leave. I traveled the world. I trained for the best of the best, co-founder of NLP, Rich Roll, Sarah Campbell, the world champion free diver, just to learn everything I could about wellness and vitality. And when I came back to start this new business, you know, I was gonna meditate, and I was gonna eat salad and stuff. You know, I was in that cup of mindset, but I was totally inconsistent. I was inconsistent in the way that I exercised. I was inconsistent in the way that I showed up in the office. This inconsistency was everywhere, and finally the penny dropped. I thought, "It's alcohol." But it was the last thing that I ever questioned, and I see this all the time. I'd looked at meditation, I'd looked at my diet, I'd looked at nutre, um, exercise. I never questioned alcohol.

    2. RC

      It, it's the elephant in the room-

    3. AR

      Exactly

    4. RC

      ... about health, and it's something that is almost such an established part of culture, certainly in this country, but in many countries around the world also, that we think about all the other things we can change, but, but our relationship with alcohol stays the same. I mean, we don't touch that. I mean, that's a given, right?

    5. AR

      Yeah.

    6. RC

      But it's like, oh yeah, I, I might sort of stress out a lot about, a little bit about my diet or movement or meditation, but, you know, my alcohol intake, that's a no-go area. That is a, a given. And, and I think that for me, that's really ... It's quite interesting, so my own relationship with alcohol has changed dramatically over the last few years. Uh, and, and no doubt we'll get into that. But let's go back again. So- You said you were a banker.

    7. AR

      Yeah.

    8. RC

      And so, you know, I'm gonna, I'm sort of gonna, um, project here that you were probably earning good money.

    9. AR

      Yeah.

    10. RC

      Um, from the outside, people would look at your life and go, "He's doing really well." Is that fair to say?

    11. AR

      Absolutely. Yeah. Th- I think, you know, on paper you'd have said, "That guy's crushing it. He's got the gr- you know, the great cars and house," all the traditional sort of stuff, but inside I was struggling, and I think that's the case for so many people. Um, outwardly they l- present this persona that they're doing very well, but inwardly they're struggling a bit mentally and physically. I was definitely suffering.

    12. RC

      W- was there a, was there a particular moment? I mean, you've, you've mentioned when the penny dropped, but I don't know, you know, banker culture from, uh, what I know of some of my friends from university who've gone down that road and just from seeing what I've seen, um, alcohol, socializing fuels a lot of that industry from what I can tell.

    13. AR

      Oh, absolutely. And but what's interesting since I've got into this, it's not just banking or broking that I was in or trading, it's media. You know, it's in all these different... It's in insurance. It's in very, lots of... It's quite ubiquitous how widespread the use of alcohol is to entertain and socialize and do all those things. And as you said, it's the elephant in the room. It's the one thing that no one ever really questions. They question their diet, and they question their meditation. They question the way they move their body, and they sort of forget to actually look at this thing underneath, which is alcohol, that's tripping people up. So for me, there wasn't ever a big sort of never again moment. It was just a slow realization of, "I think this is holding me back." I was suspecting that alcohol was preventing me being my best self. It was preventing me getting from that 5 out of a 10 in terms of happiness or wellness to a 7 or an 8, and sort of spoiler alert, it absolutely was.

    14. RC

      Yeah.

  4. 7:42 – 15:46

    The Middle Lane Drinker and the Case for a 28-Day Test

    1. RC

      So why should someone who's listening to this podcast, why should they start to question their relationship with alcohol do you think?

    2. AR

      I think it's one of these, and I do a lot of corporate talks, which I love doing. I was at Adobe last week, the software giant, Amazon the week before, and the talk there is all about tactical breaks from alcohol as a vehicle to elite performance. So what I'm trying to portray by that message is very much that I think everyone should just take a break. Just run that experiment because you might not know how much it's holding you back until you remove it. Because I think s- it's things like consistency. It takes away that consistency even if you're only drinking once or twice a week. And just to set my stall out, I am talking to the middle lane drinkers. I class myself as a middle lane drinker, and what I mean by that is someone that drinks moderately, sometimes averagely, sometimes heavily, which is basically everyone. You know, that is the group that I'm talking to because I think for too long there's been this black-and-white message around alcohol. It's either you have a full-blown problem or you don't. There's no in between. I think it needs to be this gradient where we think about alcohol as a whole spectrum, and everyone who drinks is on that gradient. At one end, it's the very moderate drinker, once a month. The other end is the problematic drinker. And most people spend all of their time oscillating somewhere in the middle, don't they? I think they're average, sometimes moderate, sometimes heavy. That's the group of people-

    3. RC

      Yeah

    4. AR

      ... I'm talking to.

    5. RC

      I think that's the most powerful part of your message, that idea that it's not black or white. Um, I think many people are walking around, many of my patients are coming in with a problematic relationship with alcohol, and they wouldn't conventionally, they, they wouldn't call themselves an alcoholic.

    6. AR

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      You know? And depending on how you define that, I would agree they're, they're, they're not alcoholics. Uh, you know, a lot of people think that, oh, they're not waking up needing a drink. They're not falling out of nightclubs every day at 4:00 a.m. or whatever, you know. They, they don't have a problem with alcohol. They just come back from work and, you know, have a half a bottle of wine. Well, they start off with a glass to de-stress from the day. That glass becomes two, three glasses, and that happens Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. What happens is what I call the ripple effect. So, um, you drink a bit more than you ideally wanted to unwind from the stresses of the day, but then your sleep gets trashed.

    8. AR

      Exactly.

    9. RC

      So you don't sleep well, and then the next day you're feeling groggy, so you need more caffeine and more sugar to get you through. You're more stressed at the end of the day. So what do you need? You need, again, the alcohol. And it, you're almost in this vicious cycle that until you stop, you don't really realize how good you could feel. But that's literally what happened to you. I mean, what happened? How did you come up with the idea, "I tell you what, I'm gonna take a break for 30 days"? What happened there, and why 30 days?

    10. AR

      Uh, initially because that's all I could muster. You know, and, and this is where the whole genesis of, of One Year No Beer comes from. I didn't have a problematic relationship with alcohol in that traditional sense.

    11. RC

      Hold on. I'm gonna ho- I'm gonna pull you up on that, right?

    12. AR

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      So when was the last time you had a drink?

    14. AR

      Six years ago.

    15. RC

      Six years ago. Right. And you at that time were saying to yourself that you don't have a problematic relationship with alcohol un- and certainly by conventional standards.

    16. AR

      Yeah.

    17. RC

      If I ask you to reflect now, given all the changes in your life, how you've improved your health, your wellbeing, your performance, your cognition, I'm guessing relationships, right? Would you look back now and still say you didn't have a problematic relationship with alcohol then?

    18. AR

      Well, no, I think the way I, I look at it is to say that, was I drinking too much? Absolutely. But so is everyone else. I think it's been so socially ubiquitous that everyone's on this level playing field of drinking too much. So did it feel exceptional or problematic? Absolutely not at the time. But you're dead right. On reflection, I was drinking far too much. Um, again, but so are most people that are stuck-

    19. RC

      Yeah

    20. AR

      ... in that sort of loop that you're talking about. And it doesn't even have to be every day. It could be once or twice a week. But that once or twice a week destroys your sleep, and we know. You've had some brilliant people, Matthew Walker on the podcast, that talks about alcohol and sleep. That destroys your performance. It destroys your mental health. Destroys your productivity from one or two t-times a week.

    21. RC

      Yeah.

    22. AR

      And I think what people don't realize, the knock-on effect is for a couple of days. So even if you think about it and you do the-

    23. RC

      Yeah

    24. AR

      ... maths, right? If you're drinking twice a week and it takes you out for a couple of days, you're losing over 50% of your life, of your performance to underperformance due to the fog of alcohol, even if it's only a couple of drinks.

    25. RC

      Yeah. Y- you're absolutely right. And I guess if someone had told you six years ago, "Hey, Andy, look, um, you're drinking too much," right? Um, "You're going to, in six years' time, have not touched a drop of alcohol for six years," you, you probably would've laughed in their face and thought, "Well, what are you talking about?" Right?

    26. AR

      Oh, absolutely.

    27. RC

      I mean, so the goal for you was never to stop drinking, and I think that's very powerful. So you never planned to completely stop drinking. And I'm not saying you have completely stopped. Obviously, for six years you've not had one. I don't know how you would, um, talk about yourself and your relationship with alcohol now. And I think that's what you're offering people, isn't it? You're offering people, it's not about giving up necessarily. It's, it's almost as if you're trying to say, "Hey, look. Let's give it a go. Why don't you see how you feel when you don't drink?" And is that all you're asking people to do?

    28. AR

      Exactly. That's it in a nutshell. I choose not to drink because why would I? But prior to that, I stopped and started many times. I slipped up and stumbled and fumbled. And just so you know, the co-founder of One Year No Beer, Ruari Fairbairns, he drinks every now and again in full control on his own terms. So I'm all about people drinking if they wish to, but what I really want everyone to do is to run the test. Run the test and see the results that you get. And if you feel amazing, keep going. So back to those talks that I deliver. I talk about people doing a split test on themselves or an A and B test, effectively. A, you with alcohol right now. Gather your stats, you know, BMI, weight, resting heart rate, all those wonderful physiological stats, and then the subjective stats, productivity, time, motivation, stress, your relationships. Run the test for 28 days. That's all you've gotta do. I prefer 90 days 'cause I think you get better results. And when you think about it, 90 days, a 90-day break from alcohol over the average drinking career is about 0.49%. Everyone's got 0.49% just to run the test. And if you get the results and you have this visceral experience of these improvements, and you've got more time, you've got more motivation, you've got more productivity, you've lost weight, and all these wonderful things, then the answer's in the data. The answer's in the visceral experience, and then my job's done.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. AR

      All I've gotta do is help people start, keep them going for long enough to have their own experience, then their relationship's transformed.

  5. 15:46 – 20:03

    Early Attempts and the Pull of Social Pressure

    1. AR

      As, as a broker, yes. Absolutely.

    2. RC

      As, as a broker. Excuse me.

    3. AR

      Um, yeah, absolutely. And I found it incredibly difficult. And I remember there was one really annoying colleague of mine when I made the big announcement, I'm going to take, you know, a 28-day break from alcohol. He laughed and said, "There's no way in a million years you'll ever last a month." And he was right. I didn't. Because I found myself in this socially pressured environment and, you know, with well-worn habit loops and routines around drinking. And it's really difficult to switch that off, especially I found that in a social setting. So I made every mistake. In the Alcohol Free book, I stumbled and fumbled. But what was interesting, I wanted to learn from it. I was intrigued. I wanted to understand my brain. That's why I ended up going back and doing degrees and master's degrees to understand how the brain worked, so that I could actually understand how I could show people and help people to take a break and change their behavior-

    4. RC

      Yeah

    5. AR

      ... in those socially pressured, pressurized environments.

    6. RC

      So you said that when you decided to do that, you made an announcement. And so you're right, and, and we'll dig into societal and social pressure because I think that keeps many of us, uh, locked in certain behaviors, particularly around alcohol, that we may otherwise not choose to do. But did you feel the need to make an announcement? Was it something, for example, you could have just done yourself? Or, you know, it, it's interesting, isn't it, that you felt that actually I have to tell people. I have to make a thing of this and say to everyone around me, "Hey, I'm taking 28 days off alcohol."

    7. AR

      Yeah, I had to because I needed something to cling to-

    8. RC

      Yeah

    9. AR

      ... almost an excuse, which is ridiculous when you think about it. Here I am trying to make this really proactive ha- change in my life to be a better performer in terms of, you know, how I work and be fitter and faster and all those wonderful things, and I've gotta excuse myself because I'm trying to do it. And I think, again, that's the, the way that alcohol's viewed in society. It is the only drug in the world when you try and give it up, you get slaughtered for it.

    10. RC

      Oh, man.

    11. AR

      It's unbelievable, [laughs] isn't it?

    12. RC

      Well, let's, let's go into that. So when did you first have a drink? Right? Where did you grow up? Was drinking a part of your family culture growing up? Um, and yeah, when, when was the first time you had a drink or started to drink heavily would you say if you can remember?

    13. AR

      Oh, yeah. I think around 13 I would've had a couple of drinks, you know, here and there.

    14. RC

      With your mates.

    15. AR

      Yeah. Sort of stuff. Typical teenagey growing up stuff. It was never excessive. And I was a, a professional footballer, so- I left school at 16 to play professional football. So-

    16. RC

      Wow

    17. AR

      ... really from 16 to 22 I, I would drink occasionally after games, but it wasn't a, a big thing in my life at all. You know, it was all about football and nothing else.

    18. RC

      Yeah.

    19. AR

      Um, so then I traveled the world with my now wife, which was fantastic, and of course, I was let loose then. I didn't have the restriction of games on a Saturday. I got injured unfortunately when I was 21, so my career was ended by the time I was 23. And then I started to drink normally like everyone else, flowed into the city, and just again, I wasn't exceptional in the way that I was drinking. I was pretty much normal. It was just too much, because everyone [laughs] in that environment is drinking too much.

    20. RC

      Yeah. I guess we're all products of our environment, aren't we?

    21. AR

      Yeah.

    22. RC

      Ultimately. And we can talk about personal empowerment, and I think of course that's important, but you know, really the environment in which we live, the people with whom we surround ourselves with, ultimately that dictates so many of our choices. And actually to go against that, to go against the grain, you gotta be pretty strong. You gotta be pretty secure in yourself, because the easiest thing is to do what everyone else around you is doing.

    23. AR

      Oh, it, it totally. And I think social pressure is huge when it comes to alcohol. We ran a survey in conjunction with Sterling University of 2,000 people, and 97% said, right, which is a, a staggering result, 97% of people said the number one reason they don't take a break from alcohol more often is because they felt socially pressured. 85% of them said that they felt socially pressured at work to drink. And I think people underestimate the power of social pressure in the sense that from an evolutionary standpoint, we've got this in-built instinct to remain part of the tribe.

    24. RC

      Yeah.

    25. AR

      It's so powerful. Um, so when people assume that it's just a normal drinks night, there's a ton of pressure going on there that people can't quite see, but it's there that I think is encouraging people to behave in ways that you know what? They probably don't want to.

    26. RC

      Yeah. Absolutely.

  6. 20:03 – 27:11

    Rangan's Own Story and Finding Your Authentic Self

    1. RC

      Look, if, if I reflect on my own, uh, relationship with alcohol. So, you know, I grew up, um, and my... You know, occasionally m- mom would have a glass of wine in front of the telly. Um, I've got a, I've got a, a, a happy memory of my dad, especially 'cause my dad's not here anymore, uh, on a Friday night he'd be in our kitchen, uh, the radio would be on, he'd probably have Radio 4 on, something like that, or Classic FM, which is what my dad used to listen to, and he'd be ironing and he'd have a lager and lime often. That was, I think, his relaxation on a Friday night. You know, listen to Radio 4, have a, have a pint of lager and lime, and do some ironing. But I guess culturally we didn't drink that much. I didn't see my parents drink that much. It was now and again. And I think probably at school, I'm guessing when I was 16 or 17, when you get together with your mates, you know, you have a few drinks 'cause everyone around you's doing it. And you know, I, I know looking back now I was, like many teenagers, uh, very insecure in who I was and really trying to fit in and do what the tribe around you is doing to feel one of the gang, right? And I'm sure many people start like that. But moving back to Edinburgh, at the age of 18 I left the northwest of England, uh, to go 240 miles away to Edinburgh, uh, medical school. And got there, moved into halls of residence, and it was freshers week. And you know, I, I, I don't remember, [laughs] well, I don't remember that much about freshers week if I'm honest, and there's obviously a reason why. But I remember y- you know, I remember drinking something. I, I think it was a, I think it was a pint of lager. Um, and I don't think I'd really drunk much lager up to that point. I think I'd had a couple of sips of my dad's lager and lime. But the lime makes it super sweet, right?

    2. AR

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      So I'm at uni, away from home, you know, probably feeling a bit homesick, trying to fit in, and I have a pint of, I don't know, Carling or something. I can't remember what was, what was served in the uni bar. I didn't really like it.

    4. AR

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      Right? But you know what? Everyone around you's drinking it, so you sort of, you power through, right? You power through until you finish your pints.

    6. AR

      Yeah.

    7. RC

      Um, and then before you know it, by the end of the week you quite like it because every night you're at events and everyone around you's drinking, you know, multiple pints, and it's the thing to do. And it's, it's an interesting idea, isn't it? That we don't actually like something, but we keep persevering. I mean, how many people honestly like lager or wine the very first time they have it? I don't know if, if this has come up in your Facebook groups or not. I mean, how many people actually like it the very first time?

    8. AR

      I think it's probably zero.

    9. RC

      Yeah.

    10. AR

      It's the truth.

    11. RC

      You, you, you, you acquire that taste. You learn it. It's a learned habit. And so for me, obviously at uni, and medics in general have a very, um... You know, I don't know if people are all aware of this, but medics are big drinkers.

    12. AR

      Yeah, absolutely.

    13. RC

      You know, medical students, it's a huge drinking culture. But for me, going back to my relationship with alcohol, I grew up not really surrounded by alcohol, see it now and again, go to uni and then suddenly you're drinking loads and it's part of culture, and that really continues into your 20s, maybe into your 30s. And I think over the last few years I have, you know, I barely drink anymore.

    14. AR

      Yeah.

    15. RC

      Right? And what's interesting for me is I've not, it's not been a conscious effort for me. So I think our, our journeys are probably slightly different. So I think the reason I have stopped drinking by and large, I mean, I, I will have a drink now and again, is because as I found more meaning and purpose in my life from my job, um, and listeners to the podcast will have heard some of this story before, but since my father died who I used to care for, I've been on a real journey to discover who I am. And as I've discovered who I am, as I've started to, uh, do things in my daily life that really give me meaning and pleasure and purpose, I found that I no longer need to drink anymore. Because actually the alcohol was often there to numb-

    16. AR

      I think something you've said there is really poignant. I think the greatest discovery you'll ever make is your authentic self.

    17. RC

      Yeah.

    18. AR

      And I think that's shining through, and I think alcohol masks that. It puts on this f- a front, whether you're numbing or whether you're trying to be someone that you're not. And when you remove it, you get this chance to be you again. You get this chance to turn up and be social or relaxed or relieve boredom as you, and experience life as you. And if there's things underneath that need to be dealt with, because that's very often the case with people, especially on the extreme end who use alcohol, you get this chance to bring back your vitality, bring back your energy, and also deal with anything that's underlying, but ultimately become you again, your authentic self. That is so powerful. That is the greatest discovery you'll ever make, and I think that leads to more meaning and purpose and vitality in one's life. And I think that's the experience that you've just had and I've had in many ways.

    19. RC

      Yeah. And I guess we've just come at it from different ways because what's really clear to me is that the work you're doing is so important, and I don't really know or have come across another organization or company or group who's really giving a voice to this, as you call, middle lane drinker.

    20. AR

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      Um, and I think that's incredibly powerful. But for me, as I was thinking about this, it's really clear this is not actually about alcohol. Alcohol's almost the, the gateway, isn't it? That, I mean-

    22. AR

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... that's how it feels to me. It ain't about alcohol.

    24. AR

      It's the excuse. Alcohol's the excuse to g- to get in the same room of community of like-minded people that just want to be better. That's it.

    25. RC

      Yeah. And for you, by stopping or reducing alcohol, it's led to you getting more meaning and purpose, right? And I guess for me, I find, I have found that by getting more meaning and purpose in my life has by default led to me drinking less alcohol. So it c- it almost works both ways, right?

    26. AR

      Uh, all of these things, this is why I say alcohol's the gateway or, or taking a break from alcohol is often the gateway to the good stuff. It's the gateway to more exercise and more movement, better sleep-

    27. RC

      Yeah

    28. AR

      ... which leads to this wellness, this happiness, this vitality that leads to meaning and purpose. I see this all the time. This is the reason I'm here. I'm not here because of the stopping alcohol thing. I'm here because of what happened next.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. AR

      I'm here because of the energy and the vitality and the meaning and the purpose and all these wonderful things that happened after I took a break from alcohol.

  7. 27:11 – 33:10

    Workplace Drinking Culture and Alcohol's Effect on Mental Health and Sleep

    1. AR

      absolutely huge. And, and I, you know, do a lot of work, again, in corporates with their HR teams, right? And I love the HR teams in corporates. They're doing su- such great-

    2. RC

      Yeah

    3. AR

      ... work around wellness, around mental health, and this sort of sums it up. I was with a big, uh, corporate recently, and they're, they, they've got health pods. They've got, uh, meditation pods, sleep pods. They've got different laminates for mental health first aiders. They are doing so much wonderful work around mental health, um, in their organization. And then we'll have a conversation. I'll be like, "How do you socialize as a, as a group, as a company?" "Oh, well, every Thursday we have a drinks night." I'm like, "Oh." And then you can sort of hear the penny dropping. Hold on. Is that congruent with mental health? Because you're creating this situation. We know alcohol's disastrous for mental health, and it's disastrous for performance. So for a, a corporate and a company, not only are you doing this thing-

    4. RC

      Yeah

    5. AR

      ... that's undermining all the hard work that you're doing, you're also affecting the performance of your staff.

    6. RC

      Yeah.

    7. AR

      And to believe that that's not socially pressured is to not understand psychology.

    8. RC

      Yeah.

    9. AR

      As I mentioned about that social pressure, you can imagine a scenario, let's just run through it, that 50% of your staff don't actually want to drink. It's a Thursday night. They don't really want to get on it on a Thursday night. They've got exercise in the morning. They've got a big deadline coming up. They don't particularly want to drink. They arrive at the big free drinks corporate e- event. The CEO arrives first. He's drinking. What message does that send to the s- rest of the C-suite? They turn up. 50% of those don't want to drink. They see the CEO drinking. "Well, I've got to drink. I want to be part of the tribe. I don't want to be thrown-

    10. RC

      Yeah

    11. AR

      ... thrown out the tribe." This is, like, instinctual, evolutionary, powerful motives going on. Then the senior management turn up. 50% of those don't want to drink, but they see the C-suite drinking. What do they do? "Oh, I want to be part of the tribe."

    12. RC

      Yeah.

    13. AR

      And it filters all the way down. I mean, I've used an extreme example, but you get my point. So all of a sudden-

    14. RC

      I mean, it's not, I don't think it's as extreme-

    15. AR

      Yeah. It's probably more. [laughs]

    16. RC

      I don't think it's as extreme as, as we might think.

    17. AR

      Yeah.

    18. RC

      I think that is literally what is going down-

    19. AR

      Yeah

    20. RC

      ... in so many companies, in so many friends groups.

    21. AR

      Yeah.

    22. RC

      It is just, you know, it's too much effort to not do it. It's easier. Whenever it's easier to do a certain behavior than not, by and large, people are gonna struggle.

    23. AR

      Yeah.

    24. RC

      That, that's unfortunately reality. And if, if... I also, like you, do a lot of, lot of talks in companies about wellbeing, and to really make those changes, you've got to change the culture within that organization.

    25. AR

      Yeah.

    26. RC

      The meditation pod, the, the nap room, these things are great, right? But it, but, but it's, it's got to be cultural. You know, if you're going to the napping pod or the meditation pod and that's kind of seen as a bit weird, you know, it's never gonna catch on.

    27. AR

      Yeah.

    28. RC

      But if you see the CEO doing it after lunch, going, "Hey, you know, guys, I'm gonna get a quick 20-minute nap so I'm more productive this afternoon," well, that will feed into the rest of the organization in a massive way, rather than simply just having it there.

    29. AR

      Oh, exactly, and it's like all that, you've got the ringleader in your friend's group. It's the same sort of thing. If they buy into these type of ideas, or they're the first one to say, "Actually, let's go out and be super social," right?

    30. RC

      Yeah.

  8. 33:10 – 38:10

    Caving to Pressure, Wedding Dancing and Alcohol-Free Alternatives

    1. AR

      Yeah. So I was sort of excited, but I was really scared. Genuinely, I was worried. I was worried about, you know, would my wife run off with the really exciting postman because-

    2. RC

      Right

    3. AR

      ... he drinks and I, and I'm not gonna drink. You know, all these sort of almost stereotypes and these masks and, um, associations we have with alcohol and fun and, you know, enjoyment and all those things. When I took it away, I was like, "Oh no, am I gonna lose my wife? Am I gonna lose my best friends? Are they all gonna disown me?" My best friend, Lenny, instantly put me in the boring corner and said, "You can come out when you start drinking again." You know, it's one of them. But that's what mates do. You know what it's like. You go through all that stuff. He's my biggest supporter, by the way, now. You know, and my number one fear, and this is, this is genuinely true, was this: how the hell was I gonna dance at weddings? I was like, that's impossible, right? It can't be. [laughs]

    4. RC

      How, can I just ask, have you solved that problem?

    5. AR

      I have.

    6. RC

      Okay. That, I'd love to-

    7. AR

      It's-

    8. RC

      ... I'd love to hear

    9. AR

      ... it's not pretty and it's not nice to look at, but I've done it, you know?

    10. RC

      [laughs]

    11. AR

      And I was genuinely fearful. I was thinking, as a middle-aged ginger man, is it even legal for me to dance at weddings?

    12. RC

      [laughs]

    13. AR

      Do I need a permit? What's the story? And I've done it on many occasions, right? And I sort of enjoy it. You know, I can get away with it. But I know it sounds comical, but genuinely, that was rattling around in my brain, you know.

    14. RC

      Yeah, yeah.

    15. AR

      How am I gonna dance at weddings? How am I gonna be social? Um, so I had all that cultural bag- baggage, all that social baggage, and I got about two weeks in. I bumped into a couple of clients, and it didn't take much for them to say, "Oh, don't be so boring. Don't be such a lightweight." And of course, I crumbled and I had a drink to please them, not because I wanted to, to please them. And that's-

    16. RC

      Just, just hold it there a sec, Andy, right. I hear that, and I know exactly how that feels. That is, it's complete madness on one level, isn't it?

    17. AR

      Totally.

    18. RC

      That we are all, not all of us, many of us are engaging in behaviors that we don't want to do to please other people.

    19. AR

      Exactly.

    20. RC

      Like, how mad is that, that you felt like that?

    21. AR

      Yeah. And it's not until, you said this perfectly earlier, you get some space from it. You go, "I can't believe I behaved like that. Why would I do that? It doesn't make any sense." But when you're in it, it makes perfect sense because your whole identity's threatened. It's threatened by someone saying, "Don't be boring. Don't be such a lightweight." And it's like-

    22. RC

      [gasps]

    23. AR

      ... I wanna be part of the tribe.

    24. RC

      Yeah.

    25. AR

      I don't wanna be disliked. I don't want to lose all my friends and never have fun again. And I think alcohol does that to us. It sort of tricks us over time, that it links itself to social bonding and fun and relaxation and relieving boredom, and it takes a lot of courage. This is why it's so difficult. This is why I think One Year No Beer and what we do and any of the organizations around helping people take a break from alcohol, it's so important 'cause it does take a lot of courage. It takes a tribe to stand up and make a stand because even now, I'm the only person I know that doesn't drink in my social circles. Outside of all the stuff that I do-

    26. RC

      Yeah

    27. AR

      ... in alcohol, I'm still, between my family and all my best friends, I'm the only person that chooses not to drink.

    28. RC

      Is, is that still hard?

    29. AR

      Yes and no. It's reached a point where it's no longer hard because I love the life that I lead, but initially it was very hard. It was very hard for six months, a year, especially socially. Because I used alcohol very much. I'm quite introverted. I definitely used alcohol as a gateway into extroversion in many ways. Again, that mask that I was talking about. I was pretending to be someone that I actually wasn't, and I used alcohol in that sense. So socially, I found it difficult-

    30. RC

      Yeah

  9. 38:10 – 44:48

    Slip-Ups, the Change Cycle and the Worst Trade in History

    1. RC

      I think the first time I started to... I think, I think, I think if I'm really honest, to the best of my knowledge, the first time I started to reflect on my relationship with alcohol was probably when my son was born and he was a few months old. And I just, I can't remember the exact moment, but I do remember one, one incident where he, he was maybe three or four months old or maybe a bit older. I, I can't quite remember when it was. And I, a, a friend of a friends, you know, said, "Oh, we're meeting up at the local pub on a Friday. Do you want to come?" I think I went and had a couple of pints and came back. I didn't sleep that well. And the following morning, I think I was alone with my son or, you know, maybe my wife was sleeping in and I was up. And I've always been an early riser. And I just felt a little bit jaded and, you know, just a little bit not as calm as I could be, just a little bit, you know, anxious and moody probably. And, and my son wanted to play and engage. He probably was older than three months, I'm guessing now. Um, but I remember thinking, "Rangan, all he wants to do is play with his dad and engage. And because you had w- maybe one beer or two beers the night before, you're not able to do that." And for me, I was like, that didn't sit right with me. I was like, "Well, hold on a minute. Why should he not get his dad showing up for him in the best way possible because he's had a drink the night before?" And I think if I'm honest, I think that was the very start for me because I thought, "Hold on a minute." Because up until that point, it was just a part of my social circle. It was a part of what everyone did. You get together, you have... You know, you were out for dinner. You start off with a beer, then you might get a bottle of wine with the meal. You know, it, it was just, it was the norm, right? And but now, you know, my son now is what? He is nine and a half years old. And I'd probably tell you that it's only been in the last six to 12 months where I've felt fully secure with my new relationship with alcohol, to the point now where I can go to social settings. I don't have to pretend. I don't have to get actually a drink that looks like an alcoholic drink just so I don't draw attention to it, all that kind of stuff. Now I th- even, even last year, in fact, even in January of this year when Penguin hosted a launch party for my last book, The Stress Solution, right? And I probably hadn't drunk for about six to nine months prior to that. And you know, this was kind of swanky do in London. Lots of my friends were there, and people were having champagne. And I went up to give a speech about or a talk about the book, and it was like someone gave me, um, a glass of champagne and, you know, it feels, you know, it's almost conditioning.

    2. AR

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      I'm on, I'm up there in front of 50, 100 people with my glass in my hand talking, and I think I took a couple of sips without thinking about it, right? I wouldn't even think about it. And then literally about half an hour later, I thought, "God, I'm not feeling great. I'm feeling-- I'm already starting to feel that slight buzz."

    4. AR

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      And I didn't like it anymore. And so I just put my glass down and left it. So I probably had two sips, three sips. That may be one of the last times that I had a drink. Um, but even having been reflecting and changing my relationship with alcohol over the last nine years, it, even that, that conditioning is so ingrained that without thinking, I rock up on stage with a glass of champagne.

    6. AR

      Yeah. I mean, it's amazing. And there's a couple of things in there, but one of them that I have to get across to people all the time is this. Failure's part of the process-

    7. RC

      Yeah

    8. AR

      ... when it comes to taking a break from alcohol. Too many people have this perfectionist mindset about behavioral change in general, in fact. And, uh, I talk about this in the new book, Let's Do This, that maybe we'll get to later. But, um, what's really interesting is that you have to encourage people that you will slip up, you will stumble, you will fumble. Like years and years of psychological and social conditioning have been like layered through your life that occasionally you're going to do something that your rational brain doesn't want to do, like you're going to pick up the drink. And what happens to too many people, they'll get-- Let's take an extreme example. Someone that's drinking every day will come to One Year No Beer. They'll do a 28-day challenge. They'll feel amazing. They'll get all the psychology, and they'll be really like on a roll. They get to day 21. That old conditioning will turn up. They'll be at a swanky do, and someone will hand them a champagne. They'll drink the champagne, and they'll go, "That's it. I've blown it. I've failed yet again. I don't have the motivation. I don't have the willpower." But the truth is, failure's part of the process. And I got really interested into this and actually did some research around a guy called James Prochaska And that's the-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. AR

      ... behavioral stages of change model-

    11. RC

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    12. AR

      ... transtheoretical mo- model. And it looks like a perfect circle, so it almost feeds that perfectionist mindset that too many people have, that you come in at one end and you go through all the different stages of change and you come out the other end, da-da, you've made a permanent change. But if you look at his research into smokers, it actually shows that it takes four to five times-

    13. RC

      Yeah

    14. AR

      ... around the loop. It's this corkscrew. It's not a perfect circle. Therefore, what does that tell us? Failure, slip-ups, stumbles, fumbles, they're part of the change process. And when you can get that message across to people, it just buys them the space that if they do make a mistake like that, they dust themselves off and they come back stronger, and then they get this behavioral change over time. I think that's a really important message.

    15. RC

      A- Andy, I think that's a super important message, and actually, that goes far beyond alcohol.

    16. AR

      Yeah. Oh, completely.

    17. RC

      That goes, that goes for everything. Many people have this all or nothing mentality. I'm either being healthy or I'm not.

    18. AR

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      And first slip-up it's like, oh, I failed.

    20. AR

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      I can't do this. And it's like, hold on. A- and I've always tried to reframe this for my patients to say, no, this is education.

    22. AR

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      That's a good thing, 'cause you've realized what's happened. Can you identify the triggers? Can you identify how you felt after that? And if you can, actually, that's part of the learning process.

    24. AR

      Exactly. You come back stronger from that.

    25. RC

      Come back stronger. Yeah.

    26. AR

      Yeah, I think it's so important. And something else you said there about waking up on a Saturday morning with your son, and I talk about this a lot, and it was for me when my children were born, that I started to think about this a lot more. But I say to a lot of people, the worst trade in the history of trades is trading a Friday night, couple of drinks, for your weekend. That's the worst trade in the history of trades. Your weekends are so precious. They're your times to connect and have your vitality and your energy and your mojo and your oomph. And to trade that for a couple of drinks on a Friday is just not worth it. And when you become conscious of that and aware of it, things start to change, and I think that's exactly what happened to you.

    27. RC

      I love that. I think I've never heard it put like that before, but you're right, that is the worst trade in history.

    28. AR

      It, it is.

    29. RC

      Yeah. And you're a broker, or you used to be a broker, right?

    30. AR

      Yeah, exactly. So I know-

  10. 44:48 – 53:46

    Friends' Reactions, Being the Change and Social Contagion

    1. RC

      Yeah. Wow, that, that is fascinating. Um, we will definitely get to your new book. So I'm really interested just h- is, uh, where the progression got to from, you know, the, the first book to the second book and, and how and why you felt the need to, to, to write this. Um, but just staying on social pressure, 'cause I do think that that social... I know this 'cause I've spoke to patients, even, like, if I talk about my own life, right?

    2. AR

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      I've got a, um, you know, I've got, I'm very fortunate to have many close friend groups. Um, but there's one particular group, uh, my sort of tight, uni group of friends, and we try and play golf twice a year. You know, we all live hundreds of miles away. And so two of us in that group barely drink anymore. One, you know, does, but, but a lot reduced from what we used to do at university. And one of them probably still drinks quite a lot, although not to the same levels as when we were students. And what was really interesting, maybe two years ago or even three years ago, I remember, because I had realized by that point, that I am a better human being when I don't drink alcohol, right? And just to be clear, I didn't really drink that much.

    4. AR

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      But even a half glass of red wine, I don't sleep well.

    6. AR

      Exactly.

    7. RC

      Like, even half a glass of red wine, I don't sleep well. I'm up a bit, I'm a bit cranky in the morning. I, I waste the following day because of literally that 10 or 15 minutes of pleasure the night before, which again, is a bad trade.

    8. AR

      Bad trade. Exactly.

    9. RC

      And I figured out that's a bad trade, and, and you do that enough times, you go, "Why am I drinking?" Right? 'Cause I'm, I feel better. I like my life better when I don't drink. And but then I had this golf weekend, and w- I was driving down, and I was stressing out on the way 'cause I thought the one, the one person who does still drink, what's he gonna think? Um, is, you know, and, and in my head I was like, no, no, I'm, I'm really, I'm not gonna drink this weekend. It'll be great to see them. I'm just gonna hold firm. Um, let them do... I have no problem when people around me want to drink. It, for me, it's all about individual choice.

    10. AR

      Yep.

    11. RC

      You, people should do whatever they wanna do. I have no issues with that. But we got there, and he pulls up in his car, and, uh, he opens the boot. He's like, "Guys, guys, look, I've got the dartboard just like uni." He had crates of beer. He had a couple of bottles of spirit in the back. It's like, you know, and it was a Friday. And he pulls it all out and says, "Right, let's play some darts before we go out for dinner." And, you know, before you know it, I felt this real pressure to fit in. I wouldn't drink much, but I probably had a couple of drinks, and still there was probably a slight bit of... Was there baiting or did I project that there was baiting? That's what I can't quite figure out yet, 'cause I think half the time we project. And so ultimately, what happens, I didn't drink much. I probably had a, a glass or two of wine on both nights. Didn't sleep well, didn't enjoy playing golf 'cause I felt a bit groggy-headed. Um, and on the, on the drive home, I was beating myself up, saying, "Well, why did you do that? You know, you've been looking forward to this. You've not seen those guys for four to five months. Why did you wreck that by..." This is the language I use to myself.

    12. AR

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      I'm not saying the language was correct. I'm not saying it was the most kind language, but that was the language I was using to myself at the time. And what's interesting is that I, I spent a lot of time thinking about it, and I thought, you know what? I'm sort of doing my mate a disservice there, 'cause maybe he doesn't care. Right? Maybe genuinely he doesn't care. And w- the following year we went, and I didn't drink. And I just said, "Hey, mate, look, you know what? I don't really drink much anymore. I feel better when I'm not." And it was completely fine.

    14. AR

      Yeah.

    15. RC

      So do you know what I mean?

    16. AR

      Yeah.

    17. RC

      So, so in our heads, we're making sometimes an issue. Now I've got other friends who, like, one of my friends who doesn't live nearby anymore, a few months ago came back. Uh, me, him, and another old mate went round to his, his place. And they all open up a bottle of beer, and I said, "No, I'm good, guys. Just, I'll just take a water, please." And you know, he made a little comment, a little comment, um, "Oh, yeah, Rangan's doing whatever he's doing." You know, something that actually might seem trivial and might seem like it's just banter, but actually it's not. It's really not. It's actually- And I've thought about this long and hard, and I've not brought it up because I, I feel very comfortable with things now.

    18. AR

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      But that is clearly he's got an issue.

    20. AR

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      Right? And why should whether I have a drink or not impact him in any shape or form?

    22. AR

      Exactly. I think those people-

    23. RC

      So what's going on there?

    24. AR

      I think the people that protest the loudest, it's just because you're holding that mirror up to them.

    25. RC

      Exactly.

    26. AR

      And they don't like it. They're uncomfortable with it. I can genuinely remember probably about eight years ago going out with someone who didn't drink, um, in a social setting. This guy was there, and he was having a brilliant time. He was laughing.

    27. RC

      [laughs]

    28. AR

      He had all the jokes. He had all the banter, and in my mind, it couldn't compute how could he have fun. I don't understand, and I really, it... I was uncomfortable with it. I didn't like it. I was certainly involved in trying to twist his rubber arm into having a drink because it just made me really uncomfortable. So I know how that experience feels. So on the flip side of that, I know when people protest the loudest and they give me stick, it's because they're probably a bit unsure about their own relationship with alcohol, and here's the great secret. Having been alcohol-free for six years now, the amount of people that were the original big protesters that have come up to me since that have either stopped drinking or taken a break from alcohol and have said to me, "Look, one of the main reasons that I probably protested the loudest because I actually was drinking a bit too much myself." So, you know, I'm all about trying to be at the epicenter of change.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. AR

      I think that's what you do is brilliant. It's about like just let that flow out into the world because you just give off this goodness, and you give people a chance and the courage for them to take a break as well. The classic example is you go out to a, a corporate lunch. You know, in the city, that's sort of what you do, and I know how this works, right? Most of that table, they don't wanna drink. Historically, when I used to go to those lunches, everyone would drink. Say there were six people, everyone would have a beer or a glass of wine. When I stopped drinking and had the courage to say, "I'm not drinking," I'd say 50%, if not more, of that table would not drink every time because it gave them the courage. It gave them the confidence that one person is doing this, therefore it's okay for me.

  11. 53:46 – 1:05:51

    Women, Tribes and Connection as the Root Cause

    1. AR

      I, I... Do you know what? For the first time in history, men are now drink- Sorry, women are drinking as much as men.

    2. RC

      Really?

    3. AR

      So whether that's a cultural, social thing, but look at the way women socialize and the way men socialize. Very much, you know, they get together, and how do they get together? Very, in similar ways. Very often around alcohol, whether that's, you know, mum's going out for a glass of wines or it's the lads meeting after work for a pint or whatever. You know, those social stereotypes. I'm tripping over there, but you get the idea. I think it's the same thing.

    4. RC

      That's really intriguing because, you know, we certainly as a guy in all-male groups there is, you know, "You're not drinking? Come on. Stop being a wuss. You know, come on, man up, you know. You know, drink your beer like a man." You know, these frankly now ridiculous phrases [laughs] that maybe I partook in as well-

    5. AR

      Yeah

    6. RC

      ... when I was younger. If you think about it, I'm, I'm sort of intrigued as to, is that also, is that what it's like for, for certain women in certain groups, you know? Is, is there that kind of pressure? And, you know, because you run One Year No Beer, because you've got these really amazing supportive Facebook groups and communities where people can share and give accountability and give inspirations to other people, um- What are some of those stories that women are sharing, and have you noticed that some of those stories or some of those narratives around booze is different for women than it is for men?

    7. AR

      I think it's actually very similar.

    8. RC

      Is it?

    9. AR

      You'll see in our groups all the time people will show their text message where they've said to a friend, you know, a, a woman to another woman, like, you know, "I'm coming along. Can't wait to see you. Just to let you know I'm not drinking." And then the reply is, "Well, don't bother." You know, or something along those lines. Or s- or a witty comment based on the fact of, "Well, if you're not drinking, what's the point?" So I think it's very similar. I think it maybe displays in different ways, but I think we're all experiencing-

    10. RC

      Yeah

    11. AR

      ... that social pressure. But you touched on something else that's interesting there, and I think why tribes are so important, you know. If there's a change that you want to make in your life, whether that's to change the way that you move your body or the way that you eat or the way that your relationship is with alcohol, find a tribe of like-minded people.

    12. RC

      Yeah.

    13. AR

      It's so important. And what I love about the One Year No Beer tribe, I am biased clearly, but I think it's the best of the internet. And, and the reason I do is because, and we can talk about this, you and Harry and connection and all these type of things, um, people want connection. They're desperate for connection.

    14. RC

      100%.

    15. AR

      And what's beautiful about our members, which, who I love, I think they're just stunning, is that all the fluff of the internet is gone. All that social fluff of, "Hey, look at me, I'm amazing. I'm on holiday in so-and-so places." It's gets real really quickly. So bonds happen really quickly. People go in there, they share their struggles, and they share their successes, and together collectively they inspire each other to make honestly the most amazing changes, not just around alcohol. That's the exciting part, as I said earlier. It's that they change their career, they lose five stone in weight. You know, they get fit, they get healthy. They have babies because their sperm count goes through the roof-

    16. RC

      Yeah

    17. AR

      ... because they're doing all these healthy new, these things in their life. I think it's just so important.

    18. RC

      Yeah. I, I think that's a great point. I think this is where we can use the internet, we can use social media for such positive change-

    19. AR

      Yeah

    20. RC

      ... right? When we can use it to really create strong connections. And actually on a deeper level, something I think, I think about a lot these days is what is the root cause of a lot of the behaviors that many of us choose, whether it's alcohol, whether it's staying up late binge-watching Netflix, whether it is sitting on the sofa and opening that packet of biscuits and demolishing the whole lot? You know, what is the root cause? Because I've realized in almost 20 years now seeing patients that a lot of people know what they should be doing. The question is, for me, it's not what they're doing, it's why they're doing it. And this is why I think connection is key because fundamentally if we are missing connection, human connection, if we don't feel a part of something, we don't feel nourished in our hearts, I am convinced that we will compensate for that with other behaviors. We will try and fill that gap, fill that hole with sugar, with, you know, binge-shopping on Amazon, with binge-watching on Netflix, with drinking too much alcohol. I really do. I feel that human connection is so important. And it, and, you know, I, I think it's great that you have this supportive tribe where it's just positivity.

    21. AR

      Yeah.

    22. RC

      People say, "Hey, you can do it."

    23. AR

      Yeah.

    24. RC

      "Hey, I know it's hard." Because if people's real-life tribe is not giving them that, well, maybe that online tribe can give them that strength and that inspiration to keep going.

    25. AR

      I 100% agree. I think it's connection. And I run master classes, which are smaller groups within our bigger groups, and we run a series of sort of tests just to get some markers. And, and the score that always traditionally scores the lowest is connection. You've got these really, like, fun-loving, you know, energized, you know, nice people that are all suffering from lack of connection. I think it is our modern-day malaise that people are suffering from. So if you can form tribes online or offline, this stuff is so important-

    26. RC

      Yeah

    27. AR

      ... because it's, it's key that you're surrounded by people that get it, that understand you, that support you, that cheer you on. Because, as you said rightly, very often our real-world connections don't actually support that.

    28. RC

      No.

    29. AR

      So if you can find an online community, that is so powerful, and this is the key to all of it. By filling that gap or nourishing yourself with community and connection, suddenly alcohol is less appealing, sugar is less appealing, because all of a sudden you're getting those al- almost psychological-

    30. RC

      Yeah

  12. 1:05:51 – 1:14:18

    Community Stories and Practical Tips for Social Situations

    1. AR

      Yeah, I mean, I think even if I share my own story, a, a lot of what we do is, is keep it positive and upbeat, right? And, and you're not giving anything up. You're gaining this massive advantage. So it's all about mindset, I think, for people, because it's really difficult at the start. It's really difficult because you'll probably be the only person in your social group that's making this change. So what we help people with is make it into a challenge, 'cause I think that really helps, first and foremost. Make it 28 days or 90 days. And then we bestow people with the mindset that failure's part of the process. Maybe you're gonna st- slip up. Maybe you're gonna stumble and fumble, as we discussed earlier. It's about coming back. It's about showing up. It's about consistency. And what we find over time is, then people will eventually start to transform their relationship with alcohol. But what we do really very much is promote the, the benefits. My own story, in that 90 days, I lost three stone in weight. You know, my body fat went from 35% down to below 10%. You know, I got my time back. Here's the thing. People don't even think about time. Time's a modern-day disease in the sense that we don't have any. Take a break from alcohol, and you unlock tons of time.

    2. RC

      Yeah.

    3. AR

      You realized how much time you were wasting. For me, mornings were never an option, right? There was no time in the morning. It just could not exist. I took a break from alcohol. Suddenly I got up Half an hour earlier became two hours earlier. You can transform your world in two hours a day. You know, in that space I got fit, got healthy, wrote two books. This is all while, whilst I was working. Went back to university twice before the kids had even got up for breakfast. So it's very much about selling the positives. And here's a great story, 'cause this happened. And again, I think this what shows you, it flows into all areas of your life. A guy had came to us a year ago. Took a break from alcohol because he was trying for a baby with his wife. I mentioned it earlier, wanted to get his count higher, and he'd heard that, read some research that if you take a break from alcohol, it's good for your, your sperm count. And all the benefits that flow from that, in the fact that he was eating better and moving his body more, and his count started to go through the roof. Anyway, I went out for a walk with him six months ago, and he shared this story and he went, "Look, my numbers are really high." And we got to the end of the walk and he said, "Look, just between us, it's really early days, but we're pregnant." And it was one of those lovely moments-

    4. RC

      Yeah

    5. AR

      ... and I forgot all about it, right, for six months, and I suddenly, just the other day, literally woke up out of the blue and went, [gasps] "Oh, I hope everything's okay. It was really early." And I just sent a message saying, "Hi, how are, are you?" And I got this message back instantly saying, "That is spooky. We're having our baby in two hours by C-section."

    6. RC

      Wow.

    7. AR

      Get in there. I mean, that's the stuff. That's what it's all about.

    8. RC

      That is the stuff, yeah.

    9. AR

      You know, it's not just about taking a break from alcohol. It's way bigger than that. It's the gateway to all the good stuff in life, in my opinion.

    10. RC

      And do you give people tips like, um... So f- the way I see it, there's short-term and then there's long-term. So in the short-term when we're not quite ready, we know there's gonna be real social pressure, um, do you give them tips on, you know, order a glass of sparkling water 'cause it looks like it could be a vodka cocktail, for example? Do you know what I mean? I don't know whether-

    11. AR

      Yeah

    12. RC

      ... do you give them all those kind of short-term tips that obviously I'm guessing you hope that in the long-term they no longer need, but they may do to get them moving?

    13. AR

      Oh, absolutely. So one of the top tips is know exactly what you're going to drink and have a backup plan. And I know that sounds really obvious, but when you go to the bar, let's just say socially, and you get to the front of the bar, and I can't tell you how many times this happened to me, and you smell the crisps and feel the ambiance and through the beer-soaked air is that classic immortal line of, "What do you want?" I can't tell you how many times I'd be in that queue with a sparkling water in my mind, and then those words would project through the air and I'd go with full confidence, "I'll have a beer, please."

    14. RC

      [laughs]

    15. AR

      Right? You can't... You know, it's these well-worn habits and routines. So those sort of little tricks and tech- techniques. Know exactly what you're going to order, rehearse it in advance, and have a backup plan. Because if the Heineken 0.0.'s not there, then be prepared to create your own lookalike. Because if you're not prepared in those situations, you know, those old psychological-

    16. RC

      Yeah

    17. AR

      ... routines will just trip you up and you'll end up doing something that you don't want to do.

    18. RC

      I, I think that's a great tip. I mean, e- this January, I think the middle of January I was in Dublin for two days doing the PR tour for The Stress Solution, and one of my mates from university actually lives in Dublin now. And normally the last two years I've been out to Dublin when the book's come out to do some interviews, and he would, he, the last two years he's come to my hotel after I've finished and we meet up. And we were in the bar with an Irish, uh, barman, my friend, and me. That was it. And he said, "What are you having?" I said, "Mate, I'll just have a sparkling water, please." Um, he's like, "Come on, man. You know, that's, you know, you know, we, you know, we're in Ireland. Come on. Let's have a bit."

    19. AR

      Yeah.

    20. RC

      And you know, for about five minutes he was ribbing me and the barman was ribbing me. He's like, "Come on, man. You've seen..." You know, it was-

    21. AR

      Yeah

    22. RC

      ... it was really interesting but I was at that point then where, you know, this year I've, you know, generally, uh, as listeners to the podcast will know, I've been doing a lot of personal growth over the last six years.

    23. AR

      Yeah.

    24. RC

      And, and particularly this year I feel very secure and very strong with who I am, so it didn't actually phase me. I was able to laugh it off. I didn't have to, um, make up stories like, "Oh, guys, I'd love to but, you know, I've got an early start tomorrow." You know-

    25. AR

      Yeah

    26. RC

      ... the stuff that I might have done even a year before. It, but it's quite interesting, isn't it?

    27. AR

      Yeah.

    28. RC

      The, you, at this, at the early days you do need a backup plan. I think I've never heard it like that. Know what you're going to order, and have a backup plan. That's the key, right?

    29. AR

      The key.

    30. RC

      'Cause what if what you want to order is not available?

  13. 1:14:18 – 1:25:47

    Dry January, Christmas and Handling Pushback

    1. RC

      Love it. Does Dry January work?

    2. AR

      It does with the right mindset, I think. Uh, it's a great space to get a break from alcohol. But again, when I, I talk about mindset, a lot of people will use Dry Jan as a vehicle to say, "Hey, I've taken a month off alcohol. I can go and get plastered for the next 11." Um, or they lock themselves away socially and don't do anything and go, "Well, that was a rubbish month." All that does is feed the mythology that they need alcohol in their life when they don't. So for me, Dry Jan is brilliant if you do it with the right mindset, and the right mindset being throw yourself into the social action, make your life even more vibrant. You know, take your measurement and your stats. Do you lose weight? Do you get fitter? You know, are you more motivated? Are you more productive? Do the A and B split test. Get all the data so that you can have that real visceral experience of life without alcohol.

    3. RC

      Yeah.

    4. AR

      Rather than just this thing that you've gotta do and bemoan the fact that, "Ugh, I can't drink for a month."

    5. RC

      Yeah. 'Cause y- 'cause you're right. For many people it's a r- it's a reaction to Christmas and New Year, and that reaction means, "Okay, I feel, I feel knackered. I've, I've, I've overindulged over Christmas and New Year. Let's just go clean in January, and let's just, you know, reset." And then how do many people celebrate the end of Dry January?

    6. AR

      [laughs]

    7. RC

      Do you know what I mean? It's, it-

    8. AR

      I know. It doesn't make any sense

    9. RC

      ... it, it, it doesn't make any sense when you, when you have a bit of distance from it.

    10. AR

      Yes.

    11. RC

      You go, "I'm gonna celebrate the fact that I've not drank for 30 days or 31 days by getting smashed."

    12. AR

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      A- and it's, it's remarkable how ingrained this idea is within society.

    14. AR

      Yeah. And also I think what it does for a lot of people in that mindset gives them license to go bananas over Christmas.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. AR

      And they absolutely over do- do it thinking, "Oh, it's okay 'cause I'm gonna get a, a month off in Jan." And, you know, even when you look, and that's why now is a great time, by the way, to take a break from alcohol because I think Christmas is a brilliant time to be alcohol-free, and I know that go- goes against all the conventional thinking. But most people when you look at your Christmas diary when you're drinking, it actually feels painful.

    17. RC

      Yeah.

    18. AR

      I used to look at it and go, "Oh, no, look at that. I've got a works do, a friends do, a family do. Day after day after day, that's gonna be painful. I'm gonna be in pieces. I'm gonna be underperforming. I'm gonna be... You know, have that anxiety."

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. AR

      Whereas when you look at it as an alcohol-free person, it's like I can't wait to go and socialize-

    21. RC

      Yeah

    22. AR

      ... and have fun and have the banter. I wanna come out of Christmas fitter and faster than when I went into it, not in pieces needing to recover for a whole month to get over the fact that I've just destroyed my body-

    23. RC

      Yeah

    24. AR

      ... and my mind. It doesn't make any sense.

    25. RC

      Yeah, so I mean, a few things for me to pick up there. Um, it, it's, it's an interesting idea that many people, I think, feel... L- Just, just to set the scene again, we're, we're talking about, you're not talking about someone who is a, you know, for want of a better term, a diagnosed alcoholic.

    26. AR

      Yeah.

    27. RC

      You're talking about these middle lane drinkers-

    28. AR

      Yeah

    29. RC

      ... which I think is a brilliant phrase. Many people will say and feel, "If I can do Dry January, I don't have a problem with alcohol."

    30. AR

      Exactly.

  14. 1:25:47 – 1:31:28

    Morning Routines, Extra Time and Being Alcohol-Free

    1. RC

      in, in fact, let's talk about morning routines. 'Cause you, you sort of touched on it a little bit before-

    2. AR

      Yeah

    3. RC

      ... and what you did this morning. But you, you know, what have you done with this extra time? And you said you weren't a morning person before, so this new time that you found in the morning, how do you spend it?

    4. AR

      Yeah. And just to pick up on your point there, the time that I found in the morning could only ever exist because I stopped drinking. That is such a, an important point. And in that time, um, I wrote two books. Bearing in mind I was in a full-time job running-

    5. RC

      Yeah

    6. AR

      ... a busy brokerage. Wrote two books, went back to university twice-

    7. RC

      Wow

    8. AR

      ... to do a degree and a master's degree in positive psychology and coaching psychology that I've just finished, which I absolutely adored. Um, I got fit, I got healthy, had my morning routine before the kids were awake, and that only ever appeared or manifested in my life when I stopped drinking. Um, and for me, the key to a morning routine is this, that you need to keep your certain amount of sleep. What I did at first was the classic mistake. I just went, "Hey, I'm just gonna get up at 5:00 and go to bed at the normal time." And then that's diminishing returns. Within a week, you know, you just can't maintain that.

    9. RC

      Yeah.

    10. AR

      What I realized, me and my wife got together as a team. We were going to bed at 11:00 every night, but from 9:00 till 11:00 we were just watching box sets. Oh, that sounds a bit ancient now, doesn't it? Box sets.

    11. RC

      [laughs]

    12. AR

      It's Netflix now, but it was box sets then. And it wasn't quality time. We just felt we had to be together-

    13. RC

      Yeah

    14. AR

      ... because I'd been at work all day. And we actually got together and said, "Look, I wanna get up earlier. What about we go to bed a bit earlier? And when actually we can both get up in the morning and have a bit of quality time or a cup of tea together." So we shifted our sleep time to the mornings, and then I got this two hours a day, right, to transf- You know, you can change the world in two hours a day. You absolutely can. And that comes from all of these motivational, incremental improvements for me that were triggered by a break from alcohol. It's just stunning.

    15. RC

      Yeah. I think you have hammered such an important point there. You know, many, many times we get motivated, don't we? We're gonna get up early. Um, but we don't go to bed earlier as well to compensate.

    16. AR

      Yeah.

    17. RC

      And it's, I, I, you know, I'm [laughs] like I, you know, I don't know if people would call this boring. I love going to bed early.

    18. AR

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      I love going to bed by 9:00.

    20. AR

      Exactly.

    21. RC

      Like, genuinely love it. I mean, my best rhythm in my life, when I get to bed at 9:00 PM and I wake up at 5:00, I am my best self.

    22. AR

      Awesome.

    23. RC

      100%. It just flows for me. I, I know for me, I feel when I've had a good morning routine that I've got ahead of the day.

    24. AR

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      I feel calm for the rest of the day 'cause I know I've, I've nourished myself and that I can nourish everyone else who I come into contact with. But that would not happen if even I had a half glass of wine the night before. For me, that would tank my sleep.

    26. AR

      Absolutely.

    27. RC

      I'd be groggy when I woke up, and I just wouldn't want to do the... I wouldn't wanna meditate, I wouldn't wanna do my breathwork that I do every morning. I wouldn't wanna do my movement practice because I wouldn't feel like my best self. And when you get into that and you do it enough times, and as you say, when you fall off, but you go, "Hey, I prefer it when I'm not drinking."

    28. AR

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      You do it enough times, I'm no longer doing it. It's no longer an effort, right? Is it an effort for you not to drink anymore?

    30. AR

      No.

  15. 1:31:28 – 1:42:38

    Let's Do This: Motivation, Momentum and Meaning

    1. RC

      Moving on to your new book.

    2. AR

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      Um, which is called Let's Do This! So as an author myself, I'm always interested- For when I speak to authors who've got multiple books, right? So what happens? You write the first book around giving up alcohol-

    4. AR

      Yep. The 28 Day Alcohol-Free Challenge

    5. RC

      ... which is brilliant.

    6. AR

      Yeah

    7. RC

      And if people don't have it and they're interested in what you have to say today, I would highly recommend they get it and join your Facebook group and really get all that support.

    8. AR

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      Don't try and do it by yourself. I'd say join Andy and all the hard work you and your, your colleagues have put in to making this a really fantastic venture. But why did you write a second book, and what is in it?

    10. AR

      So the second book is all about motivation in many ways. So what happened was that, like my own journey, people would take a break from alcohol, they'd get to 28 days, they'd get their time back, their energy back, that sort of mojo and oomph for life back, and they'd come to me and say, "Right, what next? You know, I wanna get fit now. I wanna get healthy. I wanna change my career. I wanna find meaning and purpose." So I started to run these master classes that we touched on earlier because I had all these people coming through, you know, the excuse to get us in the same room, which was to take a break from alcohol, going, "I want more. What's out there for me?" And having been involved at the sort of coal face of motivation in many ways, you know, helping people over this huge motivational challenge, I'd learnt all of this information and practical wisdom, I guess. Plus, I'd done all the study and the research and the masters, that I created these master classes based on motivation to basically show people how to achieve those, I guess, traditional New Year's resolution type goals, to get fit, to get healthy, to change their career, all of those type of goals. That was the sort of genesis behind the book really.

    11. RC

      Yeah, I love it. And I guess people don't really need to have gone on this alcohol-free journey to get something out of this new book, right?

    12. AR

      Oh, no. It's-

    13. RC

      Because it's completely-

    14. AR

      It's totally separate

    15. RC

      ... completely separate.

    16. AR

      It's totally separate. So it's just using all that wisdom that I've, I picked up from behavioral change around alcohol, but applying it to all different areas of your life, which is getting people huge results. So I look at motivation in a completely different way, and I know you've got some opinions on willpower and motivation. And I agree, willpower runs out. It's like a metaphorical muscle. You can't make-

    17. RC

      Right

    18. AR

      ... lasting change on willpower alone, and motivation eventually starts to wane off and, um, fall away. So you need something more. So everything I do in the book really is holding people's hand, getting them to understand actually how their motivation works so that they can make long-term lasting change. For example, motivation changes. This is such a key point that most people don't realize. Um, the motivation to start is different to the motivation to keep going. For example, there's so much mythology around motivation, such as the great big why dream, right? Find a big enough why and you'll be forever motivated. I sort of get it. I buy into it. It was Nietzsche, I think the famous German philosopher, that said, "He who has a why to live can bear almost any how." I love all that stuff. Simon Sinek's work around find the big enough why. The problem I have with it is it's a 10,000 to one shot. You know, you can't just get your flip chart out and brainstorm all these wonderful whys and then, da-da, you're forever motivated to move your body or you're forever motivated-

    19. RC

      Yeah

    20. AR

      ... to me- um, to eat healthily. What happens with motivation, and I've seen it up close, it changes. Whys are brilliant. Whys get you started, but then you need something more than that.

    21. RC

      Mm.

    22. AR

      Whys get you over the line, get you going, then motivation changes, right? And this is what I, you know, I work with people in the book. It's to say change your focus. Start to buy into the momentary wins of the goal task that you're performing. Let's just say you want to run a marathon, and you have to run every day. What does the physical act of running give you? Think about that, and suddenly you've completely changed your perspective. You're thinking, "Actually, I feel a bit lighter. I feel a bit more energized. I run with my friend. I love connection. I love moving my body." Suddenly your motivation has completely changed from all these reasons why I should do something to why I love doing something, and it's totally, it changes everything.

    23. RC

      Yeah. Really, really powerful and, you know, motivation, for example, uh, Professor BJ Fogg, whose research you may have come across, um, he's, like, arguably the world's leading researcher in human behavior. I mean, he is, literally, he, he's, he's codified and, and put a formula behind all human behaviors, how it works, and he talks about something called the motivation wave. Um, and that motivation will be transient. It will come, and it will go. And this is a classic example why for the first two weeks in January, everyone is doing the plan or whatever book they've decided to buy this year or whatever dietary change they wanna make, but by the middle of Jan, they're off it again.

    24. AR

      Yeah.

    25. RC

      Because motivation, it does help, right? Motivation will get you started on any plan. But what do you do when the motivation runs out? Because it is gonna run out. And I think that is something that, you know, I'm, I'm very upfront with in, in my book also is to say if you're relying on willpower and motivation long term, uh, you know, in, in my experience, as you say, it's a 10,000 to one shot. It may work. You may hear a story of someone. But most people I find who use willpower and motivation have had one of those big moments in their life that-

    26. AR

      Yeah

    27. RC

      ... you know, we've both been on a good friend of both of ours, Rich Roll's podcast.

    28. AR

      Yeah. It was great.

    29. RC

      Rich had that moment where he was overweight. He was going up the stairs in his house, and he's getting chest pains. He's getting angina pains at the age of something like 40, right? That is one of those life-turning moments where, okay, enough's enough. I need to sort myself out. That's fine. And, and that does work for some people. But for most of us, if we don't have that life-changing turnaround moment, it ain't gonna work long term.

    30. AR

      Exactly. That 10,000 to one shot. So what's really important-

  16. 1:42:38 – 1:48:44

    Book Recommendations, Biggest Learning and Action Tips

    1. RC

      and you talk a lot about reading. Uh, you talk about when you stop drinking alcohol, you've got all this extra time, and with that time, you'd educate yourself. Over the last five or six years of you being on this journey, what are some of the top books that you have read that you think listeners may also get some benefit from reading?

    2. AR

      I mean, the number one by a mile is, uh, Tony Robbins' Awaken the Giant Within. It's that classic from the sort of self-help world. It's a stunning book. It's a long read, but that changed everything for me. That allowed me to realize that I'm in control of one thing and one thing only, my beliefs, and if you can control your beliefs on the inside, you control everything on the outside. This stuff is so super powerful. Um, The Chimp Paradox is another brilliant book if you wanna understand your brain.

    3. RC

      Yeah.

    4. AR

      I absolutely love that. Um, I love philosophy, stoicism. Anything by Seneca is a game changer.

    5. RC

      Me too. I love stoicism. Yeah.

    6. AR

      Oh, it's, it's wonderful. Uh, the short-

    7. RC

      Have you, have you read the, um, the Ryan Holiday book? The-

    8. AR

      Yes, I love Ryan Holiday

    9. RC

      ... The Obstacle Is the Way.

    10. AR

      Is the Way. Yeah.

    11. RC

      I love it. I absolutely love it.

    12. AR

      Ryan Holiday's, uh, uh-- I'm a big fan of, of his actually. And, um, uh, The Shortness of Life By Seneca. It's a wonderful book

    13. RC

      Wow, I don't know that either

    14. AR

      Yeah, that's a really good book. It's only a short book. I think Walden as well, Into the Woods, is a beautiful book, uh, by David Henry Thoreau. American classic.

    15. RC

      Wow.

    16. AR

      Um, I, I could go on. I mean, I absolutely love books. I, I'm, I'm a total book nerd. And actually, on the way here, there's a nice story. I found a Waterstones voucher from last Christmas. Get in there. I thought I'd lost it.

    17. RC

      [laughs]

    18. AR

      And then I found it. I went, "Yes, ship it in." So I've got 100 pounds Waterstones voucher. What could be better than that?

    19. RC

      That's amazing. Who gave you a 100 pound Waterstones voucher? Love it.

    20. AR

      My wonderful sister-in-law. She doesn't know that I lost it. I'm sure she thinks that I spent it a long while ago.

    21. RC

      [laughs]

    22. AR

      But I found it, so I will be-

    23. RC

      Oh, that is fantastic

    24. AR

      ... perusing Waterstones.

    25. RC

      Well, look, you know, we're gonna share, in the show notes page for this episode, we will put links to all those books there.

    26. AR

      Yeah.

    27. RC

      And if you have a few extra that you send me afterwards-

    28. AR

      Oh, absolutely

    29. RC

      ... like your top 10 books, we'll put that in the show notes page, because you've been on a really life-changing journey that I think is inspirational for so many people, and I know books have been a big part of that.

    30. AR

      Yeah.

Episode duration: 1:48:49

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