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Healing Children in War Zones: Lessons in Hope & Humanity | Dr Alexandra Chen
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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

Healing Children in War Zones: Lessons in Hope & Humanity | Dr Alexandra Chen

This episode includes accounts from a doctor working in Gaza, with descriptions of death, violence, injury and the humanitarian impact of war. Some content may be distressing, and listener discretion is advised. How do you help a child heal when they've experienced unimaginable trauma? And how do you offer hope when the world around them is anything but safe? In this episode, I'm joined by Dr Alexandra Chen, a trauma psychologist who has spent 18 years working with children and families affected by war, displacement and torture across around 15 conflict zones. Most recently, her work has focused on supporting children and families in Gaza. Alexandra shares two extraordinary patient stories and explains why the most important thing we can offer someone experiencing trauma isn't always a solution, but the reassurance that they don't have to face it alone. We discuss how to create emotional safety when physical safety is impossible, why promising everything will be okay can damage trust, and why conventional approaches to trauma don't always work when danger is ongoing. She also explains how movement and expressive therapies can help children process experiences they don't have the words for, why we must trust people to guide their own healing, and what it really means to be resilient. Alexandra tells me about the conversation that inspired her to establish Healing for Gaza, connecting children and families with therapists around the world. What began with three people has grown into a team of 180. But this conversation goes beyond war and trauma. We explore the power of compassion, why empathy needs to lead to action, and how to respond to suffering without becoming overwhelmed or losing hope. Alexandra shares what nearly two decades of humanitarian work have taught her about human connection and our capacity to make a difference. Whether you've ever struggled to know what to say to someone going through a difficult time, or felt helpless in the face of suffering elsewhere in the world, this conversation is a powerful reminder that sometimes the greatest gift we can offer is simply being there. 🌱 Want to feel better and live more? Subscribe for new conversations that could change how you think about your health and your life. ________________________________________ Episode Chapters 00:00 Intro 00:50 The Reality of Life in War Zones 03:01 How to Create Emotional Safety After Trauma 06:43 Trauma Therapy in War Zones 08:10 Stories of Extreme Trauma 19:35 Why Listening Is Medicine 20:32 Why I Work With Children in War Zones 26:01 How Children Heal From Trauma 28:31 Parents, Children and Intergenerational Trauma 32:31 The Power of Trauma Therapy 34:59 What Is Healing for Gaza? 41:30 Letters of Hope for Children in Gaza 44:10 How War Changes Trauma Therapy 52:10 The Hidden Cost of Resilience 01:01:01 Survivor's Guilt and Trauma 01:04:45 The Emotional Cost of Humanitarian Work 01:08:32 Supporting Trauma Therapists 01:12:45 Changing How We See War and Trauma 01:15:01 Why We Disconnect From War 01:20:47 How Can We Make a Difference? Find out more about Healing for Gaza: https://www.instagram.com/healing_for_gaza/ https://healingforgaza.org/ To write a Letter of Love you can submit a letter here https://bit.ly/HFG-LettersfromtheWorld. To donate or find out about volunteering with Healing for Gaza you can find our more here https://healingforgaza.org/. #feelbetterlivemore #feelbetterlivemorepodcast ----- Follow Dr Chatterjee at: Website: https://drchatterjee.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drchatterjee Twitter: https://twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Newsletter: https://drchatterjee.com/subscription DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostDr Alexandra Chenguest
Nov 4, 20261h 33mWatch on YouTube ↗

Summaries, chapters, transcripts, and FAQs on this page are made by uListen, not YouTube.

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:50

    Intro

    1. RC

      I think it would be helpful to start off by explaining to us how long you have been working in conflict zones for.

    2. AC

      I have had the privilege of serving since 2008, so that's about 18 years, uh, in different conflict zones. I've worked in about 14 or 15, um, as I worked for the UN for about the first 10 years, and since then have really just been serving children who've been affected by war and by displacement, as well as particularly victims of, um, sexual violence and torture.

    3. RC

      Many of us will have simply no idea of the kinds of things that you have come across.

  2. 0:50 – 3:01

    The Reality of Life in War Zones

    1. RC

      Can you paint a picture for us as to the types of things you see as part of your job?

    2. AC

      Absolutely. I think for those who are in active war, all the things that we now have come to really live stream and see, the bombings, the really brutal ways in which, uh, bodies are scattered, which children have to witness, um, the loss of homes and the complete and utter collapse of entire neighborhoods, the loss of identity that comes with that when, you know, your entire livelihood and your family, um, has, has, has been lost, has been martyred, has been killed. But on top of that, there are the invisible wounds that we're not always thinking about, but that includes a lot of despair. So with the terror, with the grief, with the anger, with extreme fear, especially amongst children, and also all the work that it takes for a child to be super brave. A lot of these children are hiding their suffering from their parents as well. Um, and so the fragmentation of a community starts with the fragmentation of the individual identity, the relationships between each other, um, um, as they're on the run, as they are trying to get across the border, as they are trying to, as many of us saw, you know, around 2015, 2016, get across the sea and not drown and, and to survive, um, the starvation that is either forced or as a result of, of being without resources, um, being, living in a tent, um, on mud, uh, sometimes for days, sometimes for years and years on end. There are Syrian refugees that I've, that I've been working with who've lived in a plastic tarp on mud for 15 years. Um, and then there are those who have also experienced torture and have been targeted for intimidation, uh, who then also lose their, you know, lose their, their touch with reality and do develop psychosis and other quite severe psychological, um, symptoms.

    3. RC

      Your training is that of a psychologist?

    4. AC

      Uh-huh. As a trauma psychologist specifically, and psychotherapist, particularly with children and adolescents.

    5. RC

      When you first started going to war

  3. 3:01 – 6:43

    How to Create Emotional Safety After Trauma

    1. RC

      zones to try and help, was there at all a part of you, even with all your training, that thought, "The magnitude of suffering is so great here. What can I as an individual possibly do to help?"

    2. AC

      Hmm. I think that is always, always the feeling, that on one hand, it will never be enough, but on the other hand, we have to do everything we can. Um, I spend a lot of time with people who have been on the receiving end of the most extreme forms of human brutality and cruelty, and in that, realizing that it is going to take not just an individual, but really an entire community to address the level of suffering and to begin some form of, form of healing. But, um, notting, not letting the great be the enemy of the good has to be a principle in this work. Um, otherwise, it just gets overwhelming, and we, we also spiral into the despair. Um, part of the effort, um, in these circumstances is to be able to take it really just one moment at a time, but also to put yourself in their shoes and say, "If I were in this instance where I have lost absolutely everything, um, and even feel like I've lost some form of dignity, but I feel utterly alone, um, and utterly terrified, what would I want in this moment?" And sometimes it is just a friendly face, a comforting voice, a reassurance there is someone to walk with me, um, through this part of my journey.

    3. RC

      In the lead-in to this conversation, I was thinking i- it's almost trivial to try and sort of compare suffering, right? To, to compare what someone in, you know, a relatively safe environment, let's say here in the UK-

    4. AC

      Uh-huh

    5. RC

      ... might want to do to improve their health and wellbeing to the sort of things you see. But then I saw something interesting in your work, which was, I guess on one level you can't compare the level of suffering, but it's just, it's what you just said there about being there for someone, being seen, you know, providing a nonjudgmental space for someone. I know from clinical practice how valuable that can be for a human being who's not been through war.

    6. AC

      Uh-huh.

    7. RC

      But I get from your work that it's also valuable for someone who has been through war and seen their house blown up and their parents murdered.

    8. AC

      Absolutely. At the end of the day, no one, no one wins in the Suffering Olympics. We're not here to compare, you know, trauma. But we are here to be as human as possible in response to all of it, um, whether you are in a place of relative safety. Trauma, as Judith Herman says, is the incident that overwhelms your system's ability to respond. So whether it is a car crash in a relatively safe country where there are medical resources and the ability to respond, or it is a genocide- In both cases, the human being affected by that trauma wants to have the same, um, response of a h- a human who can offer safety, who can offer healing, who can offer reassurance, and who will not abandon them. Um, and so as much as possible, really trying to restore that mindset and that reality, even in the most overwhelming of circumstances.

    9. RC

      You mentioned we all want a human being who can provide us that safety.

    10. AC

      Yes.

    11. RC

      But I'm guessing there's a difference there between physical safety and emotional safety

  4. 6:43 – 8:10

    Trauma Therapy in War Zones

    1. RC

      because you, in a war zone, you can't provide physical safety, can you?

    2. AC

      No.

    3. RC

      So what kind of safety are you providing for these children? And, and, and adults as well.

    4. AC

      Absolutely, both children and adults. Um, it is certainly um, a, a moment for emotional safety, but a lot of that actually starts with ensuring that we never overpromise. On my team, I always say, you know, that as much as you feel pressure to say that everything will be okay or that, you know, um, we are safe, uh, lying to someone in the moment just to give them a momentary comfort actually is quite dangerous to-

    5. RC

      Mm-hmm

    6. AC

      ... um, not helping them actually realize what is available to them, um, and also doesn't build the trust between, um, them and us. And so, uh, making sure that we don't overpromise is, is the first rule of it. But the other is to say very clearly, "In this moment, you are in danger, but I am here with you right now. And in, and in this moment, I am a safe person who is, is, is not going to hurt you and is going to listen to you if you'd like to share. And if not, just to sit with you as you cry or as you want to rage and scream, um, or if you want to just walk through how am I going to make sure that me and my, and my four children can survive on the amount of food that I have, you know, for the next two days, and help you sort that out." And so really a lot of it is accompaniment, um, but it's the promise of, of steadfast

  5. 8:10 – 19:35

    Stories of Extreme Trauma

    1. AC

      and, and continual accompaniment that we try to offer.

    2. RC

      Can you share an example of a situation where someone, a child, an adult, a family was in great need, and you simply providing a non-judgmental safe space for them to cry-

    3. AC

      Mm-hmm

    4. RC

      ... uh, to be seen ha- has had an impact?

    5. AC

      Yeah. Many stories. I'll share three different ones with you. So there's a seven-year-old girl, Lara, who I, uh-- who's a double amputee. She lost both of her legs, um, to, uh, an Israeli bomb, um, in Gaza. She's Palestinian from Gaza. And sh- the bomb had leveled her entire-- the, the entire building in which her house, um, and her home was, and it was her and her father at home at the time. Her mother and her two brothers had, um, been out visiting her grandmother when the bomb fell on the house. And so the ceiling collapsed. That was her last memory. And her father threw himself around her to protect her, and in doing so, had protected all her vital organs. But they were crushed in the rubble for three days. And so she had to watch her father die, knowing that she was alive because he had protected her. And as he was dying, he said to her, "Lara, be brave." He said, "Ma dabki, don't cry." He said, "Be there for your mother. It's your job now. You have to be there for your mother and your siblings." And he said, "Don't worry, you know, I will be with God, and I will be with you always." And three days later, they managed to pull Lara out. But the entire time, she lived with the guilt of having been the reason that her father died, um, knowing that he had sacrificed his life for her. And throughout therapy, she would feel so guilty every time she cried because she said, "I am useless." She said, "Instead of helping my mother, my mother has to carry me on her back up four flights of stairs where we live." Now as, you know, in a quite a dingy situation as refugees. Um, and, and so the work with her, a lot of it was to help her work through her survivor's guilt, to say there was a space for her to cry. Um, she made me promise a lot that I would not share with her mother because she was afraid that her suffering would break her, um, on top of everything else. But we also found ways that she could contribute in the household, even, um, as a double amputee. We found other ways for her to be able to learn, to learn with her siblings as well, even though she wasn't able to go to school. Um, and bit by bit, we helped her to rebuild her life, but also to feel that she was still in conversation, um, and not failing her father, who she felt so much shame for, you know, um, not fulfilling her-- his last wish of her to take care of, of her, of her family. Uh, but that took a long time, but it's such a huge burden on a seven-year-old. Um, and she's extraordinary. And the saddest part of all this is that she was a dancer. Um, and one video she showed me was of her twirling, twirling on the beach, um, of G- of Gaza and, um, of, of, of dancing dabke, Palestinian dance, with her girlfriends. Um, and so that was a loss that we also had to work through. Yeah.

    6. RC

      Were you just helping her, or were you also helping her mother?

    7. AC

      The way that, that I work and that my team works, um, is that we really work with the whole family as much as possible. More often than not, you know, parents come to us because they're worried about their child, but we always say, "Well, how about you? You have to carry the grief and the suffering of this child, which then becomes yours." As much as possible, we really encourage them to also be in therapy, and then we work with the family as a whole as well. Um, and I think that's one thing that we're quite proud of, to be able to hold all the family. So each member of the family has a different therapist so that they can feel that it's fully confidential. Um, but then we work together as a family if and when they're ready, uh, to be able to address the relational pieces that have fragmented.

    8. RC

      Yeah.

    9. AC

      Yeah.

    10. RC

      I'm just thinking back to what you said before about not overpromising.

    11. AC

      Mm.

    12. RC

      I guess there must be a tendency to want to-

    13. AC

      Yes

    14. RC

      ... reassure in the moment, and as you say, overpromise.

    15. AC

      Mm.

    16. RC

      When that has happened in the past, as I'm sure it has, what is the consequence of that for these families?

    17. AC

      Hmm. I'm glad you ask, because this is one of the ethics that I teach my students, and, and also on our team, because we've had to learn, we have had to learn the hard way. So there's a lot of good intention, um, but that when it doesn't involve the families who are affected themselves, uh, can really violate, you know, our principle of do no harm in humanitarian work particularly. I'll give you an example. Um, I remember at the beginning of the, of the Syria crisis, there were a lot of, uh, mothers who couldn't breastfeed because of the stress, and, um, and so they had to feed their newborns. And there was an NGO, a European NGO, I'll na- leave unnamed, that was handing out milk powder, and which of course was just from the best of intentions, wanting to help these mothers. But the, the, the milk powder had no instructions on it that were either readable. [laughs] It was all in a European language. Um, and, uh, n- none of the mothers knew what to do with it because in their communities they only did breastfeed at the time. Uh, and so a lot of them were feeding their babies the powder directly. But they also didn't have access to clean water.

    18. RC

      Mm.

    19. AC

      So had they known what to do with it, that wouldn't have been a reality. So as a result, the children, the babies were getting sick from just being fed the milk powder. So, you know, this is an example I think of where not being cued into what is actually needed by the community can really harm them, but also then break the trust, and they say, "Well, you know, were you trying to hurt our children? Were you trying to-

    20. RC

      Right

    21. AC

      ... you know, um, uh, were you trying to humiliate us for not being able to read your language?" And so on. So these also have obviously a psychological impact and, and, and hurt the community. In the, in the therapeutic space, um, I think we all want to be desperately able, be able to say to people that it gets better. Um, and sometimes we can say that, and that's one of the most comforting things that you can say. But in the middle of the war, when there is no post to the post-traumatic stress disorder, when there is not yet any safety, um, overpromising can lead people to withdraw in the therapy process, and say, "I don't feel safe with you, and therefore I can't open up with you. And, um, therefore, um, maybe the, the process of therapy is one that I cannot be entirely myself or entirely let go in."

    22. RC

      Mm. So trust.

    23. AC

      Yeah.

    24. RC

      Which of course is important for any form of healing.

    25. AC

      Yes.

    26. RC

      Wow.

    27. AC

      And just to, to, to build on that, so much of what I t- teach my team to say is, "I don't know," is actually saying to them that I may be a clinician with 25, 30 years of experience, but in this moment I don't know. But I will be with you in the not knowing, and I will be with you in the, in the, in the journey of the step-by-step into the unknown so that at least you won't be alone. And that's our promise.

    28. RC

      I have lots of things to follow up on, um, but I don't want to interrupt you sharing these three stories-

    29. AC

      Yes

    30. RC

      ... I think you had to mind. So please feel free to, to continue sharing.

  6. 19:35 – 20:32

    Why Listening Is Medicine

    1. RC

      I learned that listening is medicine. I learned that I don't need to have a solution, like a pharmaceutical solution. I just saw it time and time again. If you allow people to tell their story, and you don't judge, and you listen intensively, that is often the first time they've ever been able-

    2. AC

      Ever

    3. RC

      ... to do that. And yeah, it's just interesting for me to, to, to sort of really reflect on that similarity in two completely different worlds.

    4. AC

      Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And, and you know, one as a child, and also one as a, a- an adult man, and who, by the way, went on to get married and have children.

    5. RC

      Wow.

    6. AC

      You know, because he was so sexually tortured, he was so fearful. He said, "I don't know if I can ever be intimate again." But years later, um, sent me pictures of his two children. Um, and that was just the greatest joy. Um, and, uh, so that, that

  7. 20:32 – 26:01

    Why I Work With Children in War Zones

    1. AC

      healing is possible.

    2. RC

      Why is it you do the work that you do?

    3. AC

      It's a good question. I, I grew up in Hong Kong, um, uh, which is a bit of a champagne bubble [laughs] and, um, and knew nothing about, you know, uh... Uh, my family were in New York, Tokyo, London, so these were my points of reference as a young child about what the world looked like, so I didn't really understand, you know, poverty, much less war and suffering. But-

    4. RC

      But when you grew up, was Hong Kong quite an affluent area?

    5. AC

      Absolutely. Very much so, and, um, very cosmopolitan, but at a very, um, you know, in a very Global North way. But the truth is all four of my grandparents were refugees. They didn't call themselves that at the time, but they had all escaped war and had to do extraordinary things to survive, but never really talked about it. My only surviving grandmother, however, I'm quite close to, and it came out in, in bits and pieces that, you know, then would sort of wake me up and realize how much she had gone through as a child and endured. Uh, I ended up, I sort of falling into this work as a mistake. I went to, um, Palestine as a Christian pilgrim, you know, wanting to see Nazareth and Jerusalem and, and Bethlehem and all the holy sites. And, uh, but in doing so, uh, in passing the refugee camps to, well, military checkpoints, first of all, um, often, uh, guarded by, by young people who were my age, 'cause I was 18 at the time, and, you know, military service in Israel begins at 18, but also to going to the refugee camps. It was the first time I'd seen children who really didn't smile. They'd look like they'd had the light taken out of their eyes, and it scared me because I had spent a lot of time volunteering in different parts of Africa. My first, uh, the first place was in Soweto, uh, you know, as you know, a famous slu- slum in South Africa. So incredibly poor. Um, uh, a lot of them had, um, were, were struggling with HIV/AIDS, and, uh, but the children could find, you know, a spare tire, and that would be their joy for the day.

    6. RC

      Mm.

    7. AC

      But emotional oppression is something completely and utterly different. And so encountering, um, those Palestinian children at the camp really scared me, um, because I wanted to know, you know, who has taken that joy and that light and that life out of your li- out of your eyes? Uh, and so I stayed really. Um, at the time, I didn't speak any Arabic, uh, or I, I barely spoke any really other languages, uh, other than those I'd grown up with. And, but I danced, and so I volunteered as a dance teacher, um, in a refugee camp where there was an Italian psychotherapist who taught me and the music and the art and the theater, um, teachers to use our art therapeutically. And, um, at the time, I sort of thought that psychology was interesting was, but was a bit of a soft science. I was a, um, good pre-med student, um-

    8. RC

      Right

    9. AC

      ... as you do. And, uh, uh, but then I really just saw the transformative power of it in circumstances where children had seen their, you know, parents brutally murdered in front of them. And so that really opened my eyes to the power of psychological healing, and I suppose the rest is a bit history.

    10. RC

      That opened your eyes to the transformative power of dance?

    11. AC

      Of both dance, yes, movement, you know, and the power of movement and the body and healing, but also of psychological healing and the emotional, the emotional, um, the emotional transformation and, and strength that can be, that can be found even in deep, deep trauma.

    12. RC

      If you're with a child who has had their parents brutally murdered-

    13. AC

      Oh

    14. RC

      ... what role does dance have to play?

    15. AC

      Hmm. So dance and different pa- kinds of art, um, can play an incredible role. Um, we call them expressive therapies, the dance, the music, and art, and theater, but there's a time and place.

    16. RC

      Yeah.

    17. AC

      And it also depends on what has happened to those children. Um, a lot of them are very fearful. A lot of them have a lot of anger in addition to the just enormous grief that they carry. Um, but as Bessel says, you know, "The body keeps the score."

    18. RC

      Yeah.

    19. AC

      Um, and so especially for young children who may not have the words to describe what has happened to them, sometimes movement is really the way for them to release, whether it is art, and not just, you know, art in terms of drawing, drawing what has happened, but just, you know, the ability to, to express their rage through art and color and the, and the power of that to see it visually displayed, or movement that is powerful and the, and the, and the stamping or the, um, the ability to do so together, um, uh, is, is very therapeutic.

    20. RC

      Mm.

    21. AC

      But they're not... I, I think where I have, um, had to, especially in sort of the humanitarian space where it's often done as a writ large program for children, I've always had to say, "Be careful because some children aren't ready for that yet, um, and it's too much too soon, and can lead them to experience overwhelm, um, in the healing process." So it's very powerful, but w- as with anything powerful, has to be carefully, um, yeah, carefully approached.

    22. RC

      It must be

  8. 26:01 – 28:31

    How Children Heal From Trauma

    1. RC

      very challenging, I would imagine, to know when is the right time to introduce what.

    2. AC

      Mm. Mm.

    3. RC

      I'm guessing there are resource issues.

    4. AC

      Yes.

    5. RC

      I'm guessing you don't know how many, you know, in inverted commas, "sessions" you're going to have.

    6. AC

      Absolutely.

    7. RC

      So i- is it that on one hand there's a, there's a sort of urgency that I wanna give this child or this adult all the healing tools that I can, at the same time if I do too much too quickly, I'm gonna overwhelm them and, and sort of turn them off?

    8. AC

      Absolutely. Um, it's almost as if you're in my trainings in our war trauma curriculum-

    9. RC

      Right [laughs]

    10. AC

      ... 'cause you're asking exactly that question. We say, "How do we do therapy when each session could be your last?" You don't know. You know?

    11. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    12. AC

      We could schedule it for next week, but then, you know, where they could be displaced once again, or the house could be bombed, or when, in some of our cases, we've lost patients. Patients have been killed after, you know, they started therapy with us and, you know, that's a whole other level of grief. But in the moment, I think some of it is actually managing our own urgency, managing our own trauma, and, and anger, and the feeling that we have to fix things, like you said before, the, the desire to provide a tr- solution. And especially early on, but especially when war is still ongoing, our job is to be still. Our job is to slow down. Our job is to listen. But not just listen. I always say, especially for those on my team who work with children, "Trust the children. Trust our patients. They will tell you how far they can go or not go." Our job is to offer options and agency. So not to say that this is the only way forward, but to say, "Okay, we could try this right now. Does it feel like you'd want to? Would you like to try, or does it feel like too much?" Um, because more often than not, when they are in survival mode and protective, they actually have quite a good sense of their boundaries.

    13. RC

      Is there a unique challenge that parents or mothers face in environments like this? I, I'm, again, yeah, I'm sure you've got many examples, but I'm sort of imagining the mother whose partner's no longer around-

    14. AC

      Yes

    15. RC

      ... whose house is no longer there.

    16. AC

      Yes.

    17. RC

      And maybe there's a few children that still need looking after.

  9. 28:31 – 32:31

    Parents, Children and Intergenerational Trauma

    1. RC

      So there's a grief for the life that she used to have, the partner she used to have. Maybe one or two of the children are not there. I- is that a different kind of challenge?

    2. AC

      Yes.

    3. RC

      The sort of challenge that, you know, we, we can't even imagine.

    4. AC

      It is the challenge to be superhuman. They have to be superhuman in these circumstances.

    5. RC

      And have you seen them be superhuman?

    6. AC

      Oh, absolutely, and it's extraordinary. I don't know how they do it. I really don't. They... And don't forget, this is often, at least I'm telling you in the context of Gaza, but in a lot of Arab and different African cultures, you have never known what it is like to be alone. You grow up in a family where y- it's not just your nuclear family. Your parents live the floor above you or the house right next to you. Um, and so it is the village who has raised you and your children. So when you are forced into exile without your spouse, you're not just without your spouse, you're without your parents, but you're without your siblings, you're without your children's cousins who they get to play with, and all of a sudden you have to carry it all in addition to your own trauma. And I really do think that they're superhuman because they hold so much, but also they work so hard not to take it out on their children. Um, and that's why we have to be there, and that's why we're almost insistent that every parent who comes to us for, to have their child receive therapy is also in therapy. Um, I can give you so many examples, but one of the, um, one of the extraordinary m- mothers, she's a journalist, and she's just a powerhouse, and she has four daughters and one son, and the five-year-old had cancer. So in addition to losing everything, she had to get her youngest, Yasin, who is my patient, cancer treatment. And she said in an interview that we did with her recently, she said, "I had no idea how to connect with my children anymore," because she said, "I had to be both the mother and the father, but also I had to be the home. And being so strong, I couldn't connect with them as children." And so that's where my team at Healing for Gaza, she s- she, she said was able to meet the children where they were, but also to give her space to just be her own person. Um, without the resentment that built, um, and that, and that does. But a lot of them are incredibly tired, and sometimes therapy is just a place to fall apart and be very tired, and not be judged for it

    7. RC

      Maybe the only place-

    8. AC

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... where they can do it.

    10. AC

      Yeah.

    11. RC

      I think I read the story of Lena-

    12. AC

      Yeah

    13. RC

      ... which I think is the story that prompted you to set up your organization.

    14. AC

      Yes.

    15. RC

      Can you, can you tell us a little bit about Lena and what her words to you ended up leading to?

    16. AC

      Um, so I'm a trauma psychologist, and before the genocide started, I was offering pro bono, um, therapy to war-affected children and their, and their families. And when the genocide started, obviously, the, the scale, the sheer scale of how many children were going to need help really hit me. I already, even before it started, was feeling sort of my conscience was really struggling with, with the length of my waiting list. Um, 'cause I was... You know, I said there are plenty of people that I've trained with who are extraordinary, but I can't ask them to up and leave their lives and be on the front lines with me. Um, they also don't speak Arabic. But my experience working with Afghan patients after the Taliban took over Afghanistan, and I don't speak Dari or Pashto, I know, like, five words in each language, um, made me realize that you could do this work if you trained your interpreter as well. And I had the most extraordinary interpreters who I trained to say as the patient said, pause

  10. 32:31 – 34:59

    The Power of Trauma Therapy

    1. AC

      where they paused, choke where they choked, repeat what they repeated, so that as I was listening, even without video, um, or with, you know, facial expressions that I could track, that I could then understand what was happening with them and what mattered.

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AC

      So that was the backdrop of what I thought was possible. But then I, I, I just sort of waffled. I was like, "Is this needed?" Um, you know, right now they need to survive, and food and shelter and so on are much, you know, felt like they were more important, but does anyone want to talk? And was it worth doing if there were only a few of us? So I talked to Lena, um, who is, uh, the mum of, um, a little boy, um, also a double amputee, uh, who had, uh, who had lost his legs in twenty fourteen in the Fifty-Day War. And I said, "You know, is this worth doing? [speaking Arabic] Um, is it worth it?" You know. And, and she said, "Look." She said, "My boy lost both his legs, and if there was anyone in the world who could tell him that his life was still worth living, that he's still loved as much, if not more so than before, that he could still pursue his dreams, um, albeit in different ways, if there was anyone who could help him understand that and believe that," she said, "I would have done anything to find that person." And she said, "You were that person. But in healing him," she said, "you also healed me, because I was so angry, and I was so-- I was so panicked." And she said, "And you helped me and my husband stop fighting all the time because we were so angry at ourselves for not having been able to protect him. We felt so much guilt. And his siblings to not revolve their whole lives around him and feel guilty for, you know, going to school or having fun." Um, so she said, "For every single child that you can offer healing to, you are offering healing to at least five, six people who love him or her dearly." But then, in her sort of very direct Palestinian way, she also said, "Ismae," which means listen. She said, "If you're not doing this because you feel it's too small, it's not big enough, it's not flashy enough," she said, then, "Haram alayki." You know, shame on you, she said, "Because for every single child you can offer that healing, if it's only five, ten other psychologists," she said, "every child means the whole universe to someone, so don't hold that back from them."

    4. RC

      My God.

    5. AC

      And then I spoke to my mum, and my mum being my mum was like, "Well,

  11. 34:59 – 41:30

    What Is Healing for Gaza?

    1. AC

      every parent is only as happy as their saddest child." So, [laughs] so between Lena and my mum, we pretty much started Healing for Gaza the next day and haven't really looked back.

    2. RC

      And what is Healing for Gaza?

    3. AC

      Well, Healing for Gaza is an emergency mental health intervention, um, designed to provide the highest quality, culturally resonant, dignified therapy for children and families, um, and frontliners particularly who have been enduring the, the genocide, um, and who are-- who continue to struggle daily to survive. Um, we have, in a lot of ways, offered also been a channel for those around the world, clinicians who want to make a difference, to be able to. So we are what we call in psychology a container, a safe container, whereby clinicians who don't speak Arabic, who are working online, can make a difference. Um, and, uh, so we started as three people two years ago. Um, we are now a hundred and eighty strong, um, and it means that every Tuesday at five PM, a patient in Gaza, a therapist in Australia, and an interpreter in Ohio can meet every week.

    4. RC

      Wow. It sounds like Lena's direct conversation with you was almost the-

    5. AC

      Conviction

    6. RC

      ... the conviction.

    7. AC

      Mm.

    8. RC

      Did, did you almost feel an obligation at that point?

    9. AC

      Hundred percent. Absolutely. You know, and she just looked at me like, "What are you waiting for?" Um, so I'll forever be grateful for that.

    10. RC

      What do you personally get out of doing this work?

    11. AC

      Oh, it's a huge privilege. It's a huge, huge privilege, um, to be someone who can- Who's, who's allowed, you know, because it is, it is an invitation to walk with someone through the darkest time of their life, and to see the ways in which they are brave, and to witness the ways in which they are extraordinary and superhuman, like I said. Um, but also the ways in which they heal. Um, some people have said, you know, "I've done this for a really long time." You know, one of, one of, one of the, one of the people who I sort of encountered recently, he was like, "You're not jaded." He was like, "How are you not jaded?" I told him it's actually a bit easier now because I've, I've done it long enough that children who were 10 years old, you know, who I first started working with, are now 25, and are starting to build their own families, and are, and are joyous and... But I remember how dark and how suicidal they were in the beginning. So it is possible. Um-

    12. RC

      Wow.

    13. AC

      Yeah.

    14. RC

      That must be so rewarding-

    15. AC

      It is. It is

    16. RC

      ... to see a 10-year-old in the darkest of pain, and to see them 15 years on building a life and starting a family. That, that must be-

    17. AC

      Yes

    18. RC

      ... utterly incredible.

    19. AC

      And inspiring others, you know, speaking up and saying, you know, this boy, Ramadan, who would say to other men, you know, other young men, "Go to therapy," you know, "Give it a chance. Give yourself a chance." Uh, and, and, and using his, him and his family and his siblings and his mother as a, as a, as, as a model for, for what can be. Um, and, you know, I didn't ask him to do that, but it was just his own experience that he wanted to bring others along as well.

    20. RC

      So Healing for Gaza, it's a charity?

    21. AC

      So Early Light Foundation is the charity, and Healing for Gaza is our flagship, um, program that we started with.

    22. RC

      So i- if there is anyone who wants to contribute to Healing for Gaza, is there a mechanism for them to do so?

    23. AC

      Yes, absolutely. Um, they can go on our website or our Instagram, um, and be able to donate. And, uh, if anyone who is a clinician who's listening to this and wants to, you know, join us, um, we're recruiting for our next cohort that starts, um, end of October. Uh, if anyone who is an Arabic, you know, bilingual, um, native Arabic speaker who wants to come and interpret, um, and support this, we will train you. You have no experience in interpretation, just a commitment to confidentiality and to the, to the dignity of, um, uh, uh, of, and, and, and, and of mental health, um, is welcome to, to, to apply. But there's, there's a way for anyone to make a difference.

    24. RC

      I don't mean to be crude by asking about, uh, exact financial amounts-

    25. AC

      Mm

    26. RC

      ... but I guess to really help people understand the, the, the impact that you're having. I know there'll be people listening now who wish to donate.

    27. AC

      Mm-hmm.

    28. RC

      If someone donates 10 pounds-

    29. AC

      Mm-hmm

    30. RC

      ... does that make a difference?

  12. 41:30 – 44:10

    Letters of Hope for Children in Gaza

    1. AC

      a child send me a picture of one that he's kept on his fridge for, for almost two years. Um, and he says, "This is my reminder to not give up because someone cares."

    2. RC

      I think I've either heard you say or read in one of your blogs this idea that one of the hardest things for some of these kids and families is that this is all man-made.

    3. AC

      Yes.

    4. RC

      Okay? This is not a natural disaster. This is something that has been created by man and therefore can be stopped and uncreated by man.

    5. AC

      Yes.

    6. RC

      Is that one of the reasons why these letters prove so powerful?

    7. AC

      Yes. Because the children know. The children know that none of this is an accident, that all of this is man-made and strategically created to erase their history. One of, one of my patients said to me, "They've taken from me my past and my future. I have no photos left. I have no memories left. I have nothing to hang on to. And then my future, I have no rights as, you know, a refugee and, and what do I live for?" And so these letters are so powerful for that reason. Um, I don't know if you've, you've heard me talk about this one patient of mine who really, who really challenged all of us. Um, 10 years old- Going on 45. And just, [laughs] you know, we call him the mukhtar, which means the mayor, because every therapy session, he sits like this. And, you know, uh, you know, it's almost just a lecture. We call it khutbah, yeah, I mean, in Arabic. He, he... It's like a lecture. And at first I thought that he was, you know, parroting some political commentary from his father.

    8. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    9. AC

      But then I met his father, who's an artist and couldn't care less about politics. It really was just his own analysis of the media. And he said to me once, he said, "Doctora," he was like, "I've decided." He was like, "The way in which people see us as Palestinians is that they think we are cockroaches, because everyone in the world has agreed that when you see a cockroach, you run after it, and you kill it, and no one feels bad about it." And he said, "But Doctora, I need you to answer a question for me," because this is at the height of the, for starvation. He was like, "I have never seen anyone try to starve a cockroach. So why starve us?" And he's 10. These are things he's thinking about, you know? And, and so the understanding is really, I think, an existential

  13. 44:10 – 52:10

    How War Changes Trauma Therapy

    1. AC

      question for these children to say, "If the world does not want us alive and doesn't think we deserve to, what do we live for?" And so therapy is more than just, "Tell me how you're feeling," you know? It's way more than that. It's, it's really saying, "What is it that you need right now to be able to believe in yourself in this moment, to put the next foot forward?" Um, and just to say that, "I can't fix the world for you, but I can be here for you, um, while you figure it out."

    2. RC

      You mentioned before that Healing for Gaza are recruiting for clinicians.

    3. AC

      Oh.

    4. RC

      There's many clinicians who listen to this podcast. I imagine some of them may be thinking, "Well, I'd like to help, but I don't know-

    5. AC

      Uh-huh

    6. RC

      ... if I've got the necessary skills."

    7. AC

      Uh-huh.

    8. RC

      So what kinds of clinicians are you looking for?

    9. AC

      Mm-hmm. So we have psychotherapists, psychologists, um, psychiatrists, clinical social workers on our team. Um, our requirement is that you have 10 years of clinical experience, that you have some sort of... that you know, that you're a licensed and qualified clinician, that you have 10 years of clinical experience, and that you also have some sort of trauma specialization already. So whether that is having taken a certification on it or that your work has been with people who have been war affected-

    10. RC

      Mm

    11. AC

      ... or have, you know, um, experienced victim, you know, are victims of sexual violence or of trauma, of, of torture, or, um, some of our, um, most, uh, the clinicians who connect most with our, with, um, our patients have worked with indigenous communities, for example, who have experienced displacement and dispossession. Um, so that's our, that's who we are looking for. But also, I think, um, people who understand the importance and are open-minded to understanding that we're gonna have to do a lot of unlearning together. So, because l- everything that we have been taught about trauma, at least in the Global North, centers around the concept of PTSD, which is post-traumatic stress disorder. But that was a, that was a term that was coined in the '70s to describe the experience of an American soldier coming back from war, and the flashbacks and the night terrors that he was experiencing while in safety.

    12. RC

      Mm.

    13. AC

      PTSD assumes safety, and so the therapeutic, um, approaches that we have been taught mostly assume safety.

    14. RC

      Yeah.

    15. AC

      But if you try to apply those approaches to someone who needs to survive, for example, hypervigilance or dissociation, these are protective mechanisms that your brain activates when you are in a place where you need to be able to survive and not experience overwhelm. So, for example, trying to down-regulate the hypervigilance could actually get someone into real trouble if they're not reacting fast enough to, to the far sound of a missile, for example. Um, so the openness to unlearn with us and to learn anew-

    16. RC

      Mm

    17. AC

      ... um, is what we ask.

    18. RC

      Yeah. One of the most profound things I reflected on is literally what you just said, that we assume safety-

    19. AC

      Yes

    20. RC

      ... when we're talking about how we manage PTSD. And of course, if you're in a war zone, there's no safety. So therefore, what of our therapeutic interventions are still valid in that backdrop?

    21. AC

      So I'll give you a couple examples that have actually, you know, cropped up in our training. Um, humming, for instance, is one of the, um, ways to help, um, regulate when you are triggered.

    22. RC

      Yeah. It stimulates the vagus nerve, right?

    23. AC

      Precisely. And, uh, often it's, uh, helpful to do it in group as well, um, 'cause you feel y- you are co-regulating with others. But humming sounds like drones.

    24. RC

      [sighs]

    25. AC

      You know? So trying that would just really be so scary for everyone. [laughs]

    26. RC

      How does that... Have you witnessed that happen?

    27. AC

      I have witnessed that happen in other contexts, and it's, it's, you know, quite remarkable. And, and so the learning has to come really quick to say-

    28. RC

      Wow

    29. AC

      ... "Okay," you know, "that is unsafe and not appropriate," and how to regulate from that moment of being triggered also.

    30. RC

      Wow.

  14. 52:10 – 1:01:01

    The Hidden Cost of Resilience

    1. AC

      more than it is offering therapy, especially early on. And the other is in, you know, as we try to widen the window of tolerance little by little. You know, I've had experiences where the patients are like, "Okay, "" like to here and, and stop, because I can't really do much more. And she actually said to me, she said, "With you, I can do more." But she said, "But with the rest of the world, when I step back out into the world, I can't."

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    3. AC

      "So I cannot have too much contrast between how safe I can be with you and how unsafe I am outside." And that was also a lesson to say let's not, not put her through the, too much of a, of an extreme experience as well.

    4. RC

      Yeah.

    5. AC

      Um, but I think just my last point on that is that, um, also to give the patient's agency very upfront. I'm very clear when I start. With anyone, I say that this is going to be 50/50. You may see me as the expert, as a doctora, but I'm in this with you 50/50, which means that if at any point something doesn't feel right, you tell me, because you're going to know that best. My commitment to you is that I will respond to that, that I won't dismiss it or not hear it.

    6. RC

      I, I just love hearing this sort of stuff. Um, again, the universality of what you've just said for me is really quite profound.

    7. AC

      Mm.

    8. RC

      You said about building trust and how important that is. I run a course where I teach clinicians and doctors and all kinds of healthcare professionals h- how to apply what I call the principles of lifestyle medicine with their patients.

    9. AC

      Yes.

    10. RC

      And one of the things I teach on that course, as I say, the, the, the four most important words I think I've, I've learnt in my entire clinical career are connect first, educate second.

    11. AC

      Uh-huh.

    12. RC

      Right?

    13. AC

      100%.

    14. RC

      I, I'm, and I'm not talking about in a war setting.

    15. AC

      Just anywhere.

    16. RC

      Just... But that's the human need, isn't it? Connect first, educate second. When they know how much you care-

    17. AC

      Exactly

    18. RC

      ... then they're interested in what you know.

    19. AC

      Yes.

    20. RC

      But without that first bit, and it's really quite thought-provoking for me to think about that in the context of war.

    21. AC

      Mm-hmm.

    22. RC

      It's the same principle.

    23. AC

      Mm.

    24. RC

      Right? The other principle that I think applies beyond that is this 50/50 partnership approach-

    25. AC

      Yes

    26. RC

      ... which is we're gonna do this together.

    27. AC

      Uh-huh.

    28. RC

      I'm not the expert telling you what to do.

    29. AC

      Mm-hmm.

    30. RC

      You... In fact, you're probably more of an expert in, in certain areas than even, than, than I am-

  15. 1:01:01 – 1:04:45

    Survivor's Guilt and Trauma

    1. RC

      A couple of times in this conversation, the word guilt has come up. Guilt you used in the context of the little girl, wasn't it?

    2. AC

      Yes.

    3. RC

      Whose, whose dad protected her vital organs but died in doing so. You also mentioned one of your grandmothers before And I think it's a, a n- very nice little anecdote about what she taught you about guilt. So can you speak to guilt a little bit? And, and... 'cause I think it, it must come up in your work all the time.

    4. AC

      Oh, yeah.

    5. RC

      And-

    6. AC

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... you know, what is that guilt? Is it, is it well-placed? Uh, is it problematic? And, uh, and how do you deal with it yourself?

    8. AC

      Yeah. You know how people say that grief is the evidence, you know, the depth of your grief is the evidence of how much you loved someone? I think in cultures where we are, you know, we understand the concept of, of ubuntu, that I am because you are, the guilt is a reflection of actually how connected we feel with one another-

    9. RC

      Mm

    10. AC

      ... and how much we understand that how we are is affecting others. Um, so while it can very much be paralyzing, especially for those who have made it out or who have survived in ways that those dear to them haven't, it is there because they care. And one of, one of my patients who's very challenging, 'cause she's very sharp, she's brilliant, she says to me, "Don't try to take away my guilt." She says, "It what, it's what keeps me connected." She said, "You should be worried if I'm not guilty, because then I'll have iced over and I don't care." So even then, guilt doesn't, you know, is, is not so simple. But I also, we also have patients who have eating disorders because they are guilty to eat when their family back in Gaza has nothing to eat, right? Now, with Lara, the seven-year-old dancer, it was understanding that her father, just exactly as he said, "Baba would not want you to carry that guilt. That's not, that was not his wish for you," that eventually managed to help her to move past that and to be able to carry the responsibility without the guilt, to separate the two, um, and to be proud of the ways that in which she was fulfilling, you know, his wish, um, without feeling guilty for the ways in which were just completely and utterly impossible. Um, but there, it was so interesting you bring up my grandmother, because she was actually the one who sat me down. We were having afternoon tea in Hong Kong at some nice hotel, um, as we do, and just in the middle of conversation, you know, some, some, some gossip and laughter and talk about fashion or what have you, she, she just sort of changed the subject and she said to me out of the blue, she said, "Do not feel guilty for your privilege." She said, "Do not let your guilt get in the way. Don't waste your time feeling guilty," she said, "because you could lose all of this privilege in a second." She said, "So that, the fact that you are safe, the fact that you have resources, the fact that you are educated, the fact that you are healthy," she said, "use those. Use those to help the others who can't. Because at some point you might lose that, but don't waste time feeling guilty."

    11. RC

      Mm. It, it's so poignant hearing that. I'm really interested as to how this work has affected you personally.

  16. 1:04:45 – 1:08:32

    The Emotional Cost of Humanitarian Work

    1. AC

      Mm-hmm.

    2. RC

      You've seen so much, you've experienced so much. You've probably seen things that you never wanted to see.

    3. AC

      Definitely. [laughs]

    4. RC

      Right? But you have seen them.

    5. AC

      Mm-hmm.

    6. RC

      So how has it changed you?

    7. AC

      Hmm. I think it's made me very grateful for what I have, but also in awe. Just every day is a humbling experience. It's, I am in so much awe of every little one that I work with, because the courage that it takes for them to show up every day is beyond what I think I could do, you know? But not just the courage. You know, they are loving and gentle and, and, and funny and, you know, so sweet, and I just sort of, I'm like, well, you know, when I've had a bad day, I'm rather irritable. And, you know, and you've been through this, the, the biggest trauma of the world, and you still run to me, a complete stranger, and hug me, you know? And still s- share your biscuits with others. And it, you know, all the excuses we give ourselves for bad behavior, these children sort of knock it out of the water, and they just, you know, they, they're just like, no, you know? We, they are responding to so much hate and violence with so much love, and so I'm in awe. But the other piece of it is the, I've had to dig in myself so much more space for both the darkness and the light. And so I've said this to my team, that the challenge, I think, and as I think also of this generation, if we want to be in touch with the world, not just our iPads and not just with our AI, and not just with, you know, um, sort of cancel culture, if you will, in terms of deciding what doesn't serve us, but really be in touch with the fullness of the world, is to, to create and deepen our capacities for both the rage and the rest, both the love, but also the, uh, uh, but also the, the calling out of the injustice and the outrage, that we have to make, and I've had to dig, I don't know, I think the Arabic word ˈhafaḍ, like I've really had to dig the, the, the capacity to hold both the light and the dark. Not one or the other. I think when I, especially when I was working in purely humanitarian spaces, a lot of it would be just the darkness that one would hold, and that can lead to despair and, you know, coping mechanisms like alcoholism and so forth. Um, and I saw that and I was very- Wary of it

    8. RC

      Mm

    9. AC

      And so I leaned very much into the goodness and making it an active habit to also see the goodness that is there, whether it's of my colleagues or whether it is of these extraordinary children and, and parents and frontliners who are, who are, who are teaching us new ways of being human. Um, so I have been so privileged to learn so much in that. Uh, but I also-- I remember coming back from my first rotation, and my advisor at Harvard, um, I, I met up with him. He had taught me all throughout undergraduate and was my advisor as a graduate student as well. He took one look at me, and he said, "You've seen things." And this was after I'd really been working with child torture victims, people who'd pulled out their fingernails and done horrific things to them, and he said, "You've seen things." And I said, "I have." And he would say, "Well, now the work is to not let it darken your soul." He said, "But it's a choice." So I've had to make, I think, some very intentional

  17. 1:08:32 – 1:12:45

    Supporting Trauma Therapists

    1. AC

      choices over the years, 'cause otherwise it's very easy just to spiral and be very cynical. But when you're cynical, you cannot be in the business of, of healing.

    2. RC

      How often do you cry in your work?

    3. AC

      Oh, all the time. I'd be worried if I didn't. The mental health of my team is an absolute priority. Um, so every single clinician on our team must be in their own therapy. If they don't have their own therapist, we organize for that. They must be in monthly supervision, clinical supervision, um, where they're sharing in group. You know, it's really peer support about cases that they're struggling with or-

    4. RC

      Mm

    5. AC

      ... impacts that they've had, you know, as a result of, of working with someone. And if they want individual supervision, they can ask for it as well. But these are requirements as part of being on our team, on our clinical team. But also our core team, our clin- clinic coordinators, um, must all-- you know, are, are, are offered, um, their own therapy. It is on us whether it is picking a clinician from the team that they're not directly working with-

    6. RC

      Mm-hmm

    7. AC

      ... or, um, or choosing their own therapist, whom we support. Uh, because if you become cold and shut after this work, you are, are actually harming the people who depend on you to be able to hold that space and the, the expansiveness of that space for them.

    8. RC

      Yeah.

    9. AC

      Um, which means, um, that crying is absolutely important. The body, Subhan Allah, is incredible. You know, so much of the way in which we release, where we release pain is through crying, is through sweating, and through peeing. So if you're not hitting the gym quite a lot, and if you're-- and, um, when I, uh, when I received my training, one of the things that we were told as therapists was you're supposed to drink four liters of water a day-

    10. RC

      Wow

    11. AC

      ... um, to be able to process all of, you know, the negative energy that you're, you know, that you're absor- absorbing.

    12. RC

      This is specifically for war therapy?

    13. AC

      Yes. Well, no, it was trauma therapy-

    14. RC

      Right

    15. AC

      ... just even w- beyond war. So even just the, the-- working as a trauma therapist, you should be hydrating, and that doesn't count caffeine and, and so on. Just pure water-

    16. RC

      Wow

    17. AC

      ... to process.

    18. RC

      I've never heard that before.

    19. AC

      Yes. And, um, I learned this at SPI, actually, and, uh-

    20. RC

      SPI?

    21. AC

      Um, Sensorimotor, um, Psychotherapy Institute-

    22. RC

      Mm

    23. AC

      ... founded by Pat Ogden, and I was quite amazed. I was just, you know, uh, but have really carried that practice into my work. Um, but the other part of it is crying. And so if, for years now, if anyone on my team showed up and I could tell that they were just numbed over, they were required to go home. They were not allowed to be at work. But their homework is that I have a list of sob movies, and they have to pick one, and they have to watch it, and they have to go cry their eyes out, okay? And then they come back with a bit of a book report [laughs] -

    24. RC

      Wow. So-

    25. AC

      ... and tell me what about the film.

    26. RC

      So you know they've watched it.

    27. AC

      So I know they've watched it. I mean, nowadays they can just Google it.

    28. RC

      They get an AI summary.

    29. AC

      But yes, exactly.

    30. RC

      Can tell you, "Hey, yeah, I did watch it. It was, uh, these are the four key points in the film."

  18. 1:12:45 – 1:15:01

    Changing How We See War and Trauma

    1. RC

      because we're in Oxford here, there, there's a couple of things that, that, that have popped into my mind, right? One is you gave a talk at this m- trauma conference last year.

    2. AC

      Oh.

    3. RC

      So question one relating to Oxford is how was that talk received?

    4. AC

      Oh.

    5. RC

      And in the Q&As afterwards or when people were talking to you afterwards, were there certain things that people were saying that surprised you?

    6. AC

      You know, I-- every time I've spoken at Oxford, I have been so moved by the, by the compassion of everyone Because sometimes I think maybe I also feel like the children, that the world has let them suffer and that no one cares. Now, we are a self-selecting bunch at the, at the trauma conference, but, uh, you know, when I spoke last year, um, I received a standing ovation, not for me, but for, I think, the voices of the children who have had to be so brave and the, the, the stories that I told. But to see them respond to these children's lives was deeply moving for me, um, because it means that they still care and that people who still want to make this right, um, and not just sort of take it as the status quo. Um, I think some of the things that have maybe surprised me in the responses has been the level to which people thought it was impossible to make a difference.

    7. RC

      Mm.

    8. AC

      People was like, "Wow. You mean I don't have to go out there? I don't have to learn Arabic? I don't have to be war trauma specialized to join the team and, and to do something?" And I said, "Yes, we will provide the training. We will provide the container. We will provide all the mechanisms to do it. You just need to bring your commitment and your heart and your openness to do this." Um, and, and we'll... You... It's... And, and I suppose in some ways I'm realizing now it's my approach to therapy also, it's the 50/50. You know, you bring your part, we'll bring ours-

    9. RC

      Mm

    10. AC

      ... and that's the only way we can do it together. Um.

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. AC

      But I think the other was,

  19. 1:15:01 – 1:20:47

    Why We Disconnect From War

    1. AC

      I think I was a little bit surprised by how many people were shocked by the level of the children's suffering. I'm in it day in, day out, so, but we're also in an era where, you know, all of the suffering was live-streamed and on, from multiple fronts. So there's part of me that's just sort of like, "How do we not know?" But I think, you know, whether it's the algorithm or whether it's just overwhelm that, that, that leads us to be selective about it, um, you know, the information overwhelm is also very real. So, uh, finding ways for these stories to come through, that's why I'm so grateful to Masters Events for holding this conference, for, um, inviting me to come speak because it gives a doorway of... Obviously, I wish the children could speak for themselves. But it gives a doorway for their stories to be heard in a moment, uh, where it can... that even the audience can be to feel safe enough to listen.

    2. RC

      It, it, it's really interesting that you were surprised by how little some people knew.

    3. AC

      Yeah.

    4. RC

      I think people are switching off a little bit.

    5. AC

      Mm.

    6. RC

      You know, the human brain isn't designed to hear about all of the suffering that every single individual all over the world is struggling with.

    7. AC

      Absolutely.

    8. RC

      You know, on an evolutionary level, we probably only ever knew a max of 150 people, and you probably didn't know everything about all 150. So now to have this kind of, uh, trauma live-streamed, some people just don't watch or switch off. Some people hold the view that the news is toxic-

    9. AC

      Uh-huh

    10. RC

      ... right? And watching the news simply doesn't help me because me watching the news makes me feel negative about-

    11. AC

      Yeah

    12. RC

      ... the state of the world, makes me feel bad about myself, makes me feel guilty. I feel the whole world is just pointless. And it's one of the reasons I asked you to give exact examples before because even when we talk in generic language about, you know, there's war, there's displacement, those are still surface level terms. Then we hear the stories-

    13. AC

      Mm

    14. RC

      ... then suddenly, you know, your heart is literally cracking, uh, once you feel the pain. What's your take on that? So that individual say, "I don't wanna watch. I don't wanna know how bad it is because it doesn't help me."

    15. AC

      Mm.

    16. RC

      What do you say to them?

    17. AC

      I will say that one of the, one of the dangerous things to happen to us as humans is when we feel an enormous amount of empathy, and then we're faced with helpless- helplessness. When there's no outlet for that empathy to be, to actually transform into something that is good.

    18. RC

      Mm.

    19. AC

      Feeling our own helplessness daily and powerlessness is very... it's quite literally dehumanizing, and it's demoralizing, and that's actually what people are turning away from. It's not just the horror of these things-

    20. RC

      Mm

    21. AC

      ... which is overwhelming in its own right, but it is the feeling of powerlessness. It's a lot of why we, why we started Healing for Gaza, to have an outlet of, for the empathy to be channeled positively-

    22. RC

      Mm

    23. AC

      ... so that people would not be paralyzed by this, this fact.

    24. RC

      Yeah. So they can do something. They can donate.

    25. AC

      Exactly, so they can do something.

    26. RC

      If they've got the means.

    27. AC

      Yes. And they could donate in a place where they trust that the funds will actually go to the right people because there's a lot of anxiety in that space as well.

    28. RC

      Mm.

    29. AC

      In charity spaces in general, but also with Gaza being so shut off to the world, you know, and which I fully understand. But when you have a, um, when you are constantly feeling that helplessness, that is very hard to keep coming back to. And of course, the brain is going to try to self-protect. But I think one of the troubles actually of going from print media to the, to the overwhelmingly visual media that we have now is that the visuals are too much.

    30. RC

      Yeah.

  20. 1:20:47 – 1:33:57

    How Can We Make a Difference?

    1. RC

      that in April 2024, UNICEF estimated that 100% of children in Gaza needed mental health and psychosocial support.

    2. AC

      Oh.

    3. RC

      100%. And I think I've heard you say in an interview that that's the first time or one of the only times they've said 100% for children.

    4. AC

      It's a very big thing to say, yeah.

    5. RC

      Yeah. A- and I guess a lot of people feel that there's, there's struggle and suffering going on in many countries-

    6. AC

      So many

    7. RC

      ... around the world.

    8. AC

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      And they're like, "Well, how many things can we care about?"

    10. AC

      Mm.

    11. RC

      You know? Do, do you know what I mean? And I-

    12. AC

      Yes

    13. RC

      ... I, the reason I'm bringing these up is 'cause it's not easy to bring these things up, but people will be thinking this.

    14. AC

      Oh, absolutely. They should be.

    15. RC

      And so it's much better to have it out in the open so you can sort of at least give your perspective on this.

    16. AC

      Absolutely. And I, you know, I think the ask, uh, is not for us to care about or, or put our energies into everyone and everything. We can't.

    17. RC

      Mm.

    18. AC

      But I think what is asked of us is to put our energies and care where we can best serve-

    19. RC

      Yeah

    20. AC

      ... best make a difference, and to encourage others to do the same, whether it is for, for this community or for another.

    21. RC

      Another, yeah.

    22. AC

      For me, it's because I'm an Arabic speaker, and, um, there are very few, um, Arabic-speaking trauma psychologists and even fewer who are, who are child specialized.

    23. RC

      You speak 10 languages, don't you?

    24. AC

      Yes.

    25. RC

      Yeah.

    26. AC

      Um-

    27. RC

      I can tell from you, you're very modest. You're very understated. It could... But what you do is really quite profound.

    28. AC

      Thank you.

    29. RC

      Um-

    30. AC

      Thank you. Yeah. And so but I also think that all of these, like anyone, I really do believe that anyone can make a difference if they really put their mind to it. Um, but it has to be a priority. Uh-

Episode duration: 1:33:58

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