How To Get 1% BETTER EVERYDAY To Achieve Anything You Want | Rich Roll

Rich Roll 0:00 I had gotten sober and changed my relationship with food and with exercise, and had transformed myself tremendously. These are tools that I've deployed and employed that are about tiny little things that you do every single day to move that ball forward. That work pays off. [upbeat music]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:24 You're someone who has definitely had a huge influence on me in terms of my decision to start a podcast, and also I think my decision to evolve the show into a long form show. So I wanna acknowledge you for that, so thank you, 'cause I really feel you have led the way in that. I feel podcasting has changed my life. It's made me a more mindful human being. It's made me a more trusting human being, a more compassionate one. It's made me a better husband, a better father. It's made me less judgemental. And I actually believe that podcasting is a window, and how we podcast in many ways reflects how we do life. So I wanted to break down the process with you, if you're game-

Rich Roll 1:21 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21 ... and to see if that is the case or not. So I thought I'd start out by asking you, how do you prepare for a podcast?

Rich Roll 1:29 Hmm. Yeah, that's a good question. Well, first of all, uh, thank you for the kind words, and I just wanna acknowledge what you've created and built yourself, because your podcast has grown into something very successful, and you're very good at it. I think the medium is well-suited to you and your personality, and, and the community that you've been able to cultivate by dint of your podcast I think is super inspiring. So, you know, wind in your sails and I hope that you keep doing it, 'cause I think it's great. Uh, personally, how I prepare. I mean, that's evolved over time. I think, uh, I pre- I prepare very thoroughly. My typical process, it depends on the guest of course. Uh, if they have a book, you know, I, I try to read the book or at least as much of the book as I, as I possibly can before they come on the show. Uh, and then I do a deep dive. I open up, like, 20 tabs on my browser and try to read as much as I possibly can about

Rich Roll 2:31 them. Uh, I take notes, either longhand or in a Google Doc, not of questions to ask, but sort of topics that I think will be interesting. Um, and I sort of collect all those links for the show notes during the research phase. Uh, but I don't ever create a list of questions, and I've also learned over time that there's a peril in being over-prepared for a guest. Because if you already know the answer to every single question, it's gonna be a stale experience for the viewer or the listener, because you're robbing it of the opportunity as the host to be surprised in the moment, uh, if you already kind of know where the person is gonna take it. So I've learned to do enough research and then to actually hold back from my instin- My instinct is to, like, wanna learn everything, and I have to actually say, "This is enough. I have what I need. I don't wanna know any more," because I wanna be able to be spontaneous in the conversation. Um, so that's my typical process. And then sometimes I'll have my laptop open and I have those notes in front of me, but I rarely, if ever, look at them, and I- it's almost like a safety net. I feel like if I... 'Cause I get nervous before every single one of these, even though I've done, uh, you know, almost 600 [laughs] of them. I want it to be great. I put a lot of pressure on myself because I want it to be the ultimate experience with this individual. Uh, I probably would be better off just not having the laptop or any notes in front of me at all, and just trusting the process and myself at this point. Because I've done it so many times, I know what I'm doing on some level. Uh, but it's about doing the prep and then putting it away and forgetting about it, and not having anything in front of me so that I can be completely present with that individual. So I generally think about how I wanna kick it off, uh, and then gently steering it from time to time to make sure that it doesn't go off the rails. But also allowing it to be what it wants to be rather than my preconceived idea of what I think it should be, um, I think is super important. Um, and that also goes into the choice of guests for the show. So, uh, you know, that's, I think it, that's another conversation, but I think in terms of preparation, like sometimes I'll just have a- an old friend on and I don't do very much prep at all. Like, I just want that to be as raw and as authentic as possible. So again, it depends on the guest, but, you know, probably, typically, you know, three to five or six hours of prep goes into each person that I sit down with.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:19 So you prepare heavily, and then you try and let go when the conversation-

Rich Roll 5:26 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:26 ... starts is kind of what I'm hearing, and I'm just wondering, is there a learning there? You know, is that how you approach anything else in your life? Because I, I suspect that principle, although it's based around a podcast, like I think there must be something in that for, let's say, an employee for work. They have a presentation to do. You know, they can prepare, but then when the starter gun goes off You kinda gotta let go.

Rich Roll 5:58 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's, the starting gun analogy is perfect because as you know I grew up as a swimmer. I was a competitive swimmer for the first half of my life. Uh, and the way that I approach a podcast is very similar to how I would approach a swimming race in that you do the training, you do the reps, you put in the time, and then you show up on race day and you let all that go and you trust the preparation. And it's all about trying to get into the mindset so that you're in the now, in the present moment as much as possible. Like you may be nervous and perhaps a little bit fearful about how it's gonna go, but that's where kind of some of the mindset tactics come in, to just be as rooted as possible in the experience and being in acceptance of what is happening. So it's very similar to an athletic race in that regard. You and I both know, as people who have been guests [laughs] on many podcasts and been interviewed many times, there's nothing worse than being on somebody's show and they ask you a question, and then you answer it, and then they go, "Awesome," and then they ask the next, next question. Because they're so attached to getting through their list of questions, they're so overly wed to their idea of what they think it should be, that it ends up kind of being dead on arrival. And the beauty of podcasting is allowing that authenticity to shine through, and in order for that to occur, you've gotta be present with the person that you're at and not thinking about what the next question is. Like when you're sitting down at a dinner party, you don't prepare for that. You're just engaging somebody who's sitting across from you. You're not worried, "What's the next question I'm gonna ask this person?" You're just following your curiosity and asking the next thing that, you know, you think would be interesting or that you actually wanna know about, and that's what I'm always trying to create in these experiences.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:59 Yeah. I get what you're saying about being over-prepared. I think we can be over-prepared in life. I think sometimes we have to stop and trust what happens next. Okay, we've done our best. We've done enough. Have you ever done a podcast where you haven't had time to prepare, and what happens then? Or are you someone who is so diligent with preparation that you wouldn't allow that to happen?

Rich Roll 8:20 Yeah, I've had, I've had that a couple times. There was one [laughs] one in, one experience, it was many years ago, and I, I won't say who the guest was. But I completely forgot that I had a podcast scheduled with this individual. Um, it wasn't in my calendar or it slipped my mind or something like that. I was just at home doing my thing, and this person pulls into the driveway-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:47 [laughs]

Rich Roll 8:47 ... and was like, "I'm here." [laughs] And I had done zero preparation and knew almost nothing about this person. It wasn't a public figure. Uh, and I thought, "Oh my God," like, "What am I gonna do? Should I tell him, like, that we have to cancel this?" [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:03 [laughs]

Rich Roll 9:03 I had this instinct that this is gonna be a disaster because I really don't know what I'm gonna do. And instead I just thought, "Well, let's, let's go with it and see what happens." And it ended up being fine, and we had a great conversation, and perhaps that conversation ultimately was better than the one that would have occurred had I spent a ton of time preparing. I don't know. Uh, but it gave me confidence and faith that you can do th- like, that, that it's fine. Like, that safety blanket or that impulse to try to control, um, isn't necessarily required. Um, and I think it also forced me to confront my ego a little bit, because if I'm being perfectly honest with you, I always wanna come across intelligent, like I have the good question and I can, you know, make the insightful remark. And a lot of that isn't in service to the conversation or in service to the audience. It's really about my own insecurities and my own ego and what, how I wanna be perceived and received by the audience, and that's, that's bullshit, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:21 Yeah.

Rich Roll 10:21 So that's a little battle that I'm always waging. Um, 'cause I feel like, oh, if I'm super prepared, then I'm gonna look, no matter what happens here, I'm gonna look good. And that's really not a healthy or productive way to, you know, approach this medium.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:36 Yeah. You know, it's interesting, Rich. Just a few hours ago I, I spoke to the current England football manager, or soccer manager, um, for those listening in America.

Rich Roll 10:48 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:49 And-

Rich Roll 10:49 That's exciting.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:50 Yeah, it was really exciting, and one of the things he said and he shared was how some of the top players feel really nervous before a game. And I feel that that has such a value for people who are listening to go, "Oh wow, the elites, the guys who we look up to, man, they're, they're, they kinda struggle with the same stuff as we do." Or as people listening to this who are fans of yours, of which many of my guests are fan, uh, many of my, uh, listeners are fans of yours, like, "Man, Rich gets nervous, really, after 500 episodes?" I think-

Rich Roll 11:26 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:27 ... I think there's learning for people so that people often believe that the guys who've got the, the tick boxes of what society defines as success have got it all figured out. They don't struggle with ego. They don't struggle with, uh, pressure. They don't get nervous, that you just rock up onto the mic, calm as anything, having meditated for 20 minutes, and you just zen out. But it's-

Rich Roll 11:52 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:52 ... it's not that, right?

Rich Roll 11:54 No, it's not that at all. And I- It's, it's very much the opposite. Uh, I think, you know, people can get the wrong impression looking at my show or your show at this point being successful podcasts and just think, "Well, they're just good at that," and forget the fact that, you know, I've spent thousands of hours behind the microphone, and I've been doing this for literally coming up on a decade at this point. I'm terrified to go back and listen to episode three. You know, I would... I never go backwards and, and tap into that. Like, I'm just always moving forward, and the thing about the podcast is it's in the doing. The lesson really is that it's in the doing that the discovery occurs, right? Because you're doing these podcasts. They're not gonna be perfect. They're never gonna be perfect, and you have to let go of that and just keep moving forward and keep putting episodes out and, and, you know, getting better as you go and maturing and improving and becoming a better host and everything that gets packed into that. So, uh, in podcasting, I think that it, it, it is a medium in which people are, are, um... The audience, I think, is more permissive. Like, they're not expecting it to be this highly crafted thing. In fact, if it is, it kind of loses its magic. Um, and I've found that, that, uh, y- you know, when you m- misstep or you, you know, one isn't so great, like my audience at least is like they're, they're okay with that. They're like, "All right. Well, on to the next one."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:37 Yeah.

Rich Roll 13:37 You know? [laughs] You know what I mean? And eight years later, like hopefully I'm better at it than I was in the beginning. The stakes are higher 'cause the audience is larger, and now it's like a vocation, and there's sponsors and all this other stuff. It's become a business, and that certainly wasn't how it began and wasn't how I imagined it. Um, but, you know, I was able to undergo that growth curve, um, at a time when podcasting wasn't as big or as mainstream as it is now, and I feel grateful to have had that experience when the stakes were, were much lower so that when this medium has kind of exploded and, and become more of a mainstream thing, uh, I feel like I have a grasp on this craft that, you know, I wouldn't have had even a couple years ago.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:25 You're essentially talking about consistency and how consistently applying yourself to a craft has made you better. And of course, that is a lesson that we can all apply in our own lives to relationships, health, or a passion that we're pursuing, right? That consistency.

Rich Roll 14:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:52 And I wonder... 'Cause consistency is something that's really hard for many people. It's like they want the quick fix. It's like, "Yeah, tell me what I need to do and I'll do it," uh, uh, but not consistently week after week. And, and I guess I know you identify because you have your... Well, the second book that I'm aware of. You know, the first one, Finding Ultra, which is just a wonderful memoir. It's just, just a brilliant read. Inspiration, hope, kind of... There's so much there for people. But as somebody who identifies as a writer, it's been many years between that book and this gorgeous new book that I hold in front of me, Voicing Change. And so I, I kind of feel there's something to do with deadlines that might be worth exploring. So you have a deadline that either is put on you or you put on yourself that you have to publish a certain amount of podcasts. Therefore, in some ways, you know it's not gonna be perfect because [laughs] it-

Rich Roll 15:52 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:52 ... it will be what it will be, and the show's gotta go out 'cause I've gotta do the next one. Is there something in that, something in deadlines that has meant your output with podcasts and books has been quite different?

Rich Roll 16:05 Yeah. I mean, I think there's two things that you're getting at here. There's the deadline aspect of it, and I'm a firm believer in deadlines, and we can talk about that. And then there's the, uh, antidote to the quick fix mentality, right? So maybe I'll address that part first. The quick fix kind of hack your life mentality, which is a subject that we've talked about before in our respective podcasts, uh, is a close cousin to the clickbait soundbite media culture. We all want it now. We want it immediately. We wanna be the best version of ourselves tomorrow. We wanna read this book or do this one thing and fix everything overnight, and it just doesn't work that way. Uh, I don't believe in any of that, and I think even if you were given the opportunity to snap your fingers and, you know, become the person you always [laughs] wanted to become, you're still robbing yourself of what's most valuable about that transformation, which is the journey to get there. Every success that I've had in my life has been very hard fought and has been a process of, you know, a lot of, um, behind the scenes work undertaken consistently, aggressively, and anonymously. You move these mountains over a very slow period of time. You know, my podcast began eight... It took eight years to get it from where it was to where it is today. My swimming career, my writing career, my athletic journey as an ultra-endurance athlete, all of these things didn't happen overnight. They were the result of a dedication to a process that involved strategies and tactics that are not sexy, that are difficult, and that are mostly about tiny little things that you do every single day to move that ball forward Imperceptively, imperceptibly, and, and incrementally. And that's not sexy. That's difficult, and that doesn't lend itself to a clickbait narrative. You know? It's just hard. That's the truth. Um, and deadlines play a big part in that. So when I started the podcast, I made a commitment to myself that I was going to publish a new episode every single week, no matter what, and I'm very proud of the fact that I've adhered to that. Like, I haven't missed a single week. And, you know, for many years it was one episode a week, and now we're doing, um, six a month. Hopefully we're gonna mature into eight a month. Like, it's taken a long time to get to a place where I feel comfortable doing more and more and more. But simply by making that rule that I'm gonna put one up every, every week no matter what forced me to basically get my shit together and find a guest and produce it and post-produce it and get it up. I mean, in the early days, I was editing the show myself on GarageBand. I was putting it up on the... I did every... There was no facet... There-- I was the only person doing it, so I had to learn every component of what's entailed in creating a podcast, from how you get it on iTunes to what mic should I be using and how am I recording this. Now I have a team, but that didn't happen overnight. It took many, many years. So I think what happens is people want the success, they want the result. They don't appreciate the hard work that goes into it, and they're not patient enough to undertake the long journey required and the learning that gets packed into all of that to, um, mature and grow over time. And I think I said this to you before. I believe we discussed this idea that most people overestimate what they can do in a short period of time, whether it's a month or six months or a year, and wildly underestimate what they're capable of accomplishing over a decade or a number of years, and I think that's why people pe- uh, part of why people peter out on New Year's resolutions. Like, they're not seeing the results that they want right away. They haven't created a structure, um, with interim goals and deadlines, you know, built into that where they can measure their progress incrementally, and they lose enthusiasm for it. So if I do have any kind of special skill, it isn't that I'm an innately talented athlete or a naturally gifted podcaster. It's that I appreciate the journey itself and I'm willing to put in the work when no one's no- when no one's looking. And I've learned over time in every facet of my life that that work pays off over time, but you have to be unbelievably patient and resist that, um, sense, that, uh, s- that sense of entitlement that you get, that when you under- undertake something difficult, that you need to be reaping the rewards. Like, I, I'm just about the work and the process itself, and I've been lucky enough to engage in processes that I love so that I enjoy the journey itself. But by simply being about that journey and that process, that's, that's why I've been able to, you know, move my life into the place that it is today.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:33 I mean, thanks for sharing that, Rich. It's, it's very, very powerful. Um, I've been diving deep into Ryan Holiday's books over the last few days. Um, and what's interesting as I, as I, as I learn more about stoicism and I think about Eastern philosophies and Western philosophies, what you have just been summarizing there is actually something that I feel Eastern and Western philosophies, although can seem quite different at times, where they really do converge is on the idea of process over outcome, journey over destination. You know, whether it's the stoics talking about it or whether it's Lord Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita talking about not enjoying the fruits of your labor. You know, you do the labor for the sake of the labor. Um, you really-- I think you beautifully demonstrate in that that it, you didn't have a goal to be the number whatever podcast in the world or it to be this big juggernaut of a show which is listened to all around the globe. It was a commitment you made to yourself, "I'm releasing once a week every week without fail." And that word to yourself, I think, is very powerful. A lot of us break the words that we make to ourselves, and I think that's potentially the start of when friction starts to arrive in our life, which can-

Rich Roll 23:02 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:02 ... lead us down a slippery slope. But I wanna know, Rich, that vow you made to yourself, if that was not, you know, overreaching, was it always a good thing, or did at times it become a noose around your neck?

Rich Roll 23:23 Yeah, I would say it's a little bit of both. I mean, I think there's a, a... This is particular to me and a little bit of self-understanding. Like, I'm somebody who, who is a bit of an extreme personality, uh, and I need these rules to, like, stay on track, right? Because I know for myself, if I missed a week, nothing changes. Like, the Earth still spins on its axis and I can still release an episode later than that. But personally, if I break that rule, then it just becomes easier to break it again, and I know myself well enough to know that if I break it once- Maybe I won't break it again in the next month, but six months later I'll be like, "Well, you know, I, I, I didn't put up an episode that week, so I can, I can do another week. Like, what's the big deal?" And then it'll be a month before I do it again, and then I'll just break it all the time. Like, I, I just know that about myself, which is why I create these rules for myself, and I do it across the board in various aspects of my life. Like, I don't eat meat or dairy. I have that rule for myself. I don't drink or take drugs. Like, that's a hard rule for myself. And I need those in order to kind of stay on track. Now, those rules can also work across purposes with your goal if you are too rigid about them. This works for me, and I try to create rules that are, that are still very doable in the construct of my life. I think the problem occurs when you establish a rule that isn't sustainable, right? So putting one podcast up a week, it's not that hard. Like, it's, it's pretty sustainable. Um, but if I was to say, "I'm gonna put a podcast up every single day," I wouldn't have lasted very long before I broke that rule, and perhaps I would have flamed out on podcasting altogether and just quit. So the trick is creating guidelines, um, you know, sort of signposts along the way that you, you know, privately adhere to that are sustainable and workable within the construct of your life, that are still healthy and manageable, but also difficult enough that they keep you honest. I think the macro rule, if you're to telescope up to 30,000 feet, is really are you living your life intentionally or are you living your life reactively? And I think a lot of people are living vast aspects of their life in reaction to the world around them, rather than intentionally in accordance with, you know, a plan or a rubric or, you know, a set of personal guideposts to help them make the proper decisions to lead them in the direction they wanna go. And it's never been more easy to live your life reactively. Like, we're constantly stimulated. We've deprived ourselves of the ability to be bored, to engage in our, you know, creative minds. Um, we don't have the downtime that we used to have. We're too busy, too stressed, under-rested, you know, overly stimulated, and I think when you're in that state, it's very easy to live your life on autopilot and just proceed, "This is my life. This is what I do," and never step outside of it to question or to analyze why is it that you're doing things those wa- this way. Is there a better way? Is this leading me where I need or want to go? Uh, and then years go by until you reach some inflection point or, you know, endure some kind of crisis that forces you to stop [laughs] and take inventory, uh, of how you're living and make appropriate changes. So really, you know, the rules or the guideposts, whether it's I'm putting up a podcast a week, or I'm gonna wake up at this time of day, or I'm going to exercise three times a week, or I'm gonna eat these foods and not these foods, or I'm gonna go to bed at this particular time, or no screens, you know, within an hour of sleep, or whatever it is, um, I think being proactive about those things, making a commitment to yourself is an act of self-love. Uh, and then recruiting community for purposes of accountability to keep you on track. These are tools that I've deployed and employed in various aspects of my life, both in the podcast and outside of the podcast, to simply be a better human and to live more consciously, mindfully, and intentionally. And I think that's applicable to everybody, no matter who you are or, you know, where you find yourself on this carousel of life.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:19 How do you deal with the scenario where a guest is sitting opposite you, and they're a bit nervous, and they may not be giving their best account of themselves? You know, what can we learn potentially from how you manage that situation? I mean, has it happened much?

Rich Roll 28:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:47 And when it does happen, do you have a process and a strategy to try and help them through?

Rich Roll 28:53 Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think I, I, I hadn't really experienced much of that, um, until the last couple years, and I would say that I struggled with the idea of beginning to film the podcast for that very reason. Um, I felt it important to evolve the show into a visual format and to be able to share it on YouTube, and that's, you know, had its own evolution. But I was also very aware, as somebody who, who really is, you know, going for the emotional connection, that once you introduce a camera into the equation [laughs] , you know, people tend to act differently. Even the most polished, confident, relaxed person is gonna be a little bit more, you know, back straight up when they know there's a camera staring at them. So that's something that, um, you know, I'm still trying to figure out, and with the new studio, we're gonna be able to move the cameras back and try to make them less obtrusive. But there is a certain person who gets really rigid and nervous, uh, and that is heightened by the introduction of a camera. And when that occurs, and it has happened a few times- I mean, all I try to do is, is, you know, lighten the mood and, you know, if I have to shift gears and ask them about something I feel like they're really at ease talking about, um, that's what I'll do to try to get them to relax or tell a joke or get them to forget that there's a camera or a microphone in front of them. And once I can get them engaged with a particular subject matter that they care about or that they're passionate about, everything else starts to fall away. Uh, I also think eye contact is really important with that as well. If I can maintain eye contact with that person and just really give them that sense like, "It's okay. You're safe here." Um, and I'll do that through just, you know, facial expressions or, or my personal demeanor, and sometimes it takes a few minutes, but to cajole them into that sense that it's gonna be okay. And then once you get them rolling and they for- everything else drops away and it's just two people looking at each other, then it's, it's back on track.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:06 Yeah. I mean, I love that, and I, I think there's a lot there that many of us can learn from that. You know, when people are struggling, when people are not at their best, when people don't feel safe, let's lean in.

Rich Roll 31:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:18 Let's connect. Let's smile. Let's talk about things that they like talking about. That is that human connection because those little facial expressions. I mean, it- it's funny, I think on maybe my last appearance on your show or the one before that, I think I sort of said, "Well, it's, it's interesting. I feel that I've been podcasting my entire life, even though I've only technically been podcasting-

Rich Roll 31:45 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:45 ... for, you know, coming up to three years because I've been seeing patients for nearly 20 years." So what do I do? I sit down and I talk, and I always think about connecting first before trying to, um, give them any education or wisdom that I may feel the need to share. I, I learnt very early that you connect first. Once you've connected, that once they know that you actually care, they're all ears.

Rich Roll 32:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:11 And so I feel I bring hopefully the skill I have in a consultation room into the podcast realm. Of course, it's different, but it's not as different as you might imagine actually because ultimately it's human connection, right?

Rich Roll 32:27 Yeah. Well, in your, in your office, a patient comes in, and that's a safe environment, and whatever they say to you is protected by law, right? So you're creating an environment in which they feel safe, and they need to feel safe in order for you to treat that patient. And I would say in my case, there's a couple things that I employ. The first thing is that, um, if I have that sense that somebody is nervous, I lead with, I lead with vulnerability. Like, I'll, I'll share something about myself that I'm embarrassed about. Uh, and that's basically my way of saying like, "It's okay." Like, "You can be vulnerable here." I can't expect you to be vulnerable if I'm not gonna be vulnerable. Um, and so I try to set the tone in that regard. And in the way that you kind of learned how to podcast by the way that you interact with your patients in the treatment room, I had two great educations that in retrospect looking back were, were training grounds for being an effective podcast host. The first is thousands of hours spent in Alcoholics Anonymous meetings through the process of getting recovery, and, you know, for people who are unfamiliar with what that world is all about, you basically sit in rooms and people get up and share the most vulnerable aspects of their life, and they do it with courage and with humor, and it's quite inspiring, you know, to h- to, to hear people get up who at one point in their life were utterly broken and share how they pieced things together and do it in a way where they're relating stories that to the normal person would seem horrifying. There's something so beautiful and inspirational about that. Um, and that's where I learned how to be a public speaker on-- because I would do the same. I would get up and, and, and share my story. Um, and it gave me such a profound appreciation for the power of vulnerability and the power of storytelling and the power of personal narrative. And a big impetus or motivation in me starting the podcast was I wanted to give the broader public a taste or a sense of what that experience is like because irrespective of whether you're a drug addict or an alcoholic, I think there's so much that can be gleaned and learned from that type of experience, and I wanted to recreate aspects of that in the conversations that I'm hosting. The second training ground for me was as an attorney-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:13 Yeah

Rich Roll 35:13 ... where I took, you know, a zillion depositions. [laughs] I'd just sit across from somebody who's in an antagonistic position from me, the opposite of vulnerability, where they're trying to protect themselves at all costs and learn how to ask the right questions to elucidate the kind of information that I'm trying to get. So one is-- the first is a very touchy-feely thing, and the second is a very practical kind of information extraction, um, process, and I think the two of those together have, uh, you know, served me well as a host.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:50 Have you ever been in a situation on your show where because of the intensity of the conversation, because of what a guest is sharing with you, that you've ended up sharing something that you weren't even quite aware of? You kind of knew, but y- you hadn't properly voiced it yet. Um- And I guess I'm asking that because I have, and I can perhaps share that with you shortly. But I'm really interested as to whether that's ever happened to you.

Rich Roll 36:25 Oh, it happens all the time. It happens all the time. And you know, I've... I'm, I'm pretty much an open book, so when I get interviewed people are like, "Is there anything you don't want to talk about?"

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:36 [laughs]

Rich Roll 36:36 Or what... You know, it's like, "No, just whatever you want to ask me, it's fine," you know? And then we'll start talking and then I'll just say something and I was like, "Oh, I didn't even think I was gonna say that," or, you know, "Maybe I shouldn't have said that."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:47 [laughs]

Rich Roll 36:47 But it's always been fine. So I just, you know, I'm not even always aware of it, 'cause I do it so frequently. But I'll throw it back at you. What, what was it that just happened where you [laughs] you shared something you weren't ready to share?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:02 So this was with a chap called Vivek Murthy, who used to be your-

Rich Roll 37:08 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:08 ... surgeon general. Um, and [sighs] I can't remember the exact timing of this, but it was maybe a week or two after what happened with George Floyd.

Rich Roll 37:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:26 I can't remember the exact timing, it's a bit of a blur. But I remember having the conversation with him and he was such a softly spoken, warm, just a beautiful soul, it felt like, across the Zoom screen. I, I actually did feel a powerful connection, although it was on Zoom. And he shared a few things about his own life which were really powerful. And I don't know where it came from, I, I, I feel, as I've shared with you before, I feel the whole t- of 2020 has been personal growth on steroids. I feel that frankly doing a podcast is the best personal growth anyone can possibly do, because you learn about yourself constantly. I, I certainly don't feel I would be where I am physically, emotionally, spiritually if I didn't have a podcast. But something happened then, and something that I had buried inside me. And again, you know, I don't think I realized how much it had bothered me came out in that conversation. I didn't mean to, it just sort of came out. And all it was, Rich, was between my first book and my second book I was in a meeting in Penguin Random House in London, and my first book had been, uh, you know, a big success over here. And we were sitting in a meeting and, you know, as is normal, and this is only relevant in sort of hindsight, but you know, it's a very white, middle class, uh, environment. I was the only non-white middle class person, I think, in the room, which is what I'm used to for most of my life.

Rich Roll 39:07 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:08 And they said, "Rangan, we got really good news." I said, "What is it?" He's like, um, "The, uh, your new book, The Stress Solution, that's coming out, like, we've got great distribution everywhere. Uh, o- because one of the major retailers wouldn't stock your first book because they already had a book on the shelves by an Indian doctor." And I didn't even know how much that had bothered me, Rich, but what happened is in that moment no one said anything. I felt discomfort, but as has been my learned behavior with my father and my mum, who were immigrants to the UK, which is keep your mouth shut, don't, don't, don't make fuss, get your head down, work hard, that's how you get far in life.

Rich Roll 39:49 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:49 I didn't say anything. No one said anything. We just carried on. I remember walking out just thinking, just feeling a slight discomfort, but then I buried it. I buried it. The point I was simply trying to make is the medium of podcasting, and we'll, we'll come to the book, 'cause I think that's so powerful about what you can learn from the, the medium of podcasting. But it's so powerful that I expressed something that I hadn't even expressed, I think, to my friends or my family. It was buried inside me. You know, I almost felt guilty, Rich. I thought, "Well, hold on. I'm, you know, I, I'm," in inverted commas, "'successful.'" You know, "Oh, they wouldn't stock my book. Poor Rangan." But actually what it, what it did for me is bring up loads of shame that I've carried my entire life over not feeling that I fit in, of growing up in a white middle class neighborhood being the ocean- only Indian kid or family at school, always feeling that you're, you're clashing with your culture at home to the culture around you. So that's a shortened version of what I shared. [laughs]

Rich Roll 40:51 Mm-hmm. Right. But in deconstructing that, what I heard is that Vivek led with vulnerability. So he demonstrated his comfort with being vulnerable in whatever anecdote or story he shared with you, and that opened the door where you felt comfortable sharing something that you hadn't anticipated or planned on sharing. So that's a perfect illustration of, you know, your original question, like, what do you do when somebody isn't feeling settled or whatever? You lead with vulnerability, and you create that permissive, comfortable space for that kind of honest exchange. And those are the magic moments. So whatever e- else happened in that podcast, obviously what's most meaningful to you, and I would wager for your audience as well, is you having the willingness to share a story like that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:46 If we talk about race, one thing that really impressed me was your willingness to dive into a topic that externally, at least, you didn't need to.

Rich Roll 42:00 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:00 In the sense that a lot of people don't like this topic, a lot of people, um, get quite defensive about it, yet you leaned in and you didn't have to. And I'm sure, 'cause I saw some of it, there would've been criticism To you, about you. You know, I saw comments like, you know, I saw one comment which was saying, "Man, that's it. You know, I've loved you for seven years, but, you know, I'm moving on now," which is very reflective that, oh, really, we have to 100% love someone. We can't like them 90% and disagree with them. You know, it's very reflective of where society's going. But, you know, what was going on then in your mind and why did you go into this area that business-wise, brand-wise, right, you probably didn't need to. Where-

Rich Roll 42:48 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:48 ... where did that urge come from?

Rich Roll 42:49 [smacks lips] Yeah, I mean, not only did I not need to, I did it at great peril, um, in terms of, uh, you know, the risk that I incurred by doing that. And I stand by it and I'm very proud of the fact that, uh, I made my voice known, and I'm also hyper-aware that a lot of people [chuckles] were not happy with that decision. Uh, and I've probably lost, you know, audience share as a result of that. But the truth is that when the world started to get super crazy, I felt compelled to share my perspective, and that's a function of a couple things. First of all, what's the point in having a large platform if you're not gonna leverage it, um, for what you feel strongly is the greater good? Otherwise, it feels like an academic exercise. And as the parent to two young daughters, I felt it important to be, uh, to raise my voice about these issues that I care about and to be on the right side of history, and to play some small part in the gestalt of, of positive change. And I know very well that, you know, most of the, the, the people who kind of do what I do made a different decision, and I think that decision is motivated for factors that I can understand. Like, it's financially perilous to, like, step out of this lane that you're in, uh, to talk about subjects political and social, um, knowing that not everybody's gonna like it. And I'm somebody for whom that's very uncomfortable. I'm a people pleaser. I don't court controversy. I'm not, you know, a political pundit. I'm not trying to divide people. I'm trying to unite them, and my whole podcast has been about creating a space where people from all walks of lifes and, life and perspectives can congregate around timeless ideas. Historically, every podcast I put up is essentially evergreen. It doesn't quite matter when I publish it because it's about an idea that is just as relevant today as it was, you know, five years ago or eight years ago when I started the podcast. But as the kind of political and social turmoil began to accelerate, I felt like I needed to step behind, step out, step out from behind, um, this microphone and be a little bit more proactive about my ideas. I mean, like yourself, we have these amazing conversations with individuals, but it's about the guest, right? And I felt like I needed to, to be able to express my perspective in a bit of a more unfiltered way, and to also use the podcast to bring on, um, a greater diversity of voices than I had in the past. Like, I, I became very aware of just how white, [chuckles] you know, my podcast had been. And the ex- it was a, you know, like w- like sort of, um, [smacks lips] you know, being, you know, calling my own self to the mat and really doing a deep dive into, you know, just how, um, how, how much growth I still had to do to learn and to be better and to be this voice of, of positive change. And, you know, I made this commitment that I was gonna step into it knowing that, you know, a lot of people were gonna be unhappy, and I've, I've had a couple very overt, you know, political podcasts that have been met with mixed results. You know, a lot of people are, are delighted and they're like, "Thank you for, for speaking up." And, you know, privately, most people are like, "Wow, that was really, you know, that's really something that you've been doing that." But I also get a lot of emails, and if you're to peruse the YouTube comments, [chuckles] you know, there's a lot of-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:55 [laughs]

Rich Roll 46:56 ... a lot of angry people out there as well. And, you know, I knew that going in and I, I said to myself, like, "You have to be okay with that," and I am okay with it, you know? And I, I feel like I can stand behind everything that I've said in those episodes, and I'm gonna continue to, you know, explore those tricky subject matters and do it from a place of the highest consciousness that I can summon. Like, again, I'm not here to, like, cast aspersions or divide people. I really do wanna be able to have nuanced conversations about these difficult subjects. Um, but it's impossible to do that without upsetting some people or ruffling some feathers.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:37 As a people pleaser, what was it like when on one hand you wanna do what's right, you feel a social responsibility, I've got a big platform, this is a big issue, I want to contribute to this. What was it like when some of those comments started coming back? You know, was it hard? Were you totally okay with it, or did you have to go through a process of going, "Hold on a minute, why am I doing this?" You know, what is going on there? Or were you just like, "Yeah, man, I'm totally zen with this"?

Rich Roll 48:11 Definitely not totally zen. I mean, I'm still in it, you know? And I think when you say people pleaser, like, I say that as a pejorative, like, that's a character defect I think. Um, and I started the podcast to continue my own personal growth. Like, I had gotten sober and changed my relationship with food and with exercise and had, you know, transformed myself tremendously, but I was also very aware that I still have tons of blind spots, and I wanted to continue to evolve. And the podcast is like my own personal therapy to bring people on to help me with that, and to share their wisdom, but also, in a self-serving way, to help me with my own issues, right? Uh, of which I have many. Um, and recognizing that I'm almost a pathological people pleaser is something that I feel like I need to overcome. Like, on one level, being a people pleaser is probably, you know, what motivates me to have podcasts that appeal to as many people as possible. But ultimately, it gets in the way of being authentic, and also, it's, it, it, it exists in tension often with doing the right thing. Like, you can't please everybody and stay true to your convictions, and that tension is something that I wanted to explore. So it was very uncomfortable for me to step outside of hiding behind a microphone when I have guests on to address the audience a little bit more directly and to talk about those convictions, um, understanding that that was completely at odds with being a people pleaser. So the growth has been amazing because I believe it's provided me this opportunity to kind of evolve past that, um, you know, that desire to be liked and to step more into following my convictions and to, you know, do what I feel is, is correct in the broadest sense. Um, but that doesn't mean that when I read these emails or see these comments that it's not upsetting. [laughs] So what I have to do is just com- you know, always remind myself that I knew this was gonna happen, and to not let it affect me. And sometimes I'm successful with that, and sometimes I'm not. But I've really had to stop ba- step back from, you know, perusing the comments, and that's a growth curve as well because that's also, uh, an exercise in ego. Like, oh, let's see what everyone's saying. Are they saying nice things about me? Like, you can't believe, um... You know, if you wanna, if you wanna, like, dismiss all the negative comments, then you can't believe the good comments as well.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:02 Yeah.

Rich Roll 51:03 So the health journey for me has been in, um, creating a, a, a boundary between myself and all of the feedback, not just the negative feedback, but the positive feedback as well.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:14 It, it sounds like you intentionally chose to stress test your system. If you thought you were okay and you'd got yourself together, you just slow- cranked it up and go, "Okay, how okay am I?" You know-

Rich Roll 51:27 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:28 ... what, what needs work? As I said when I came on your show, what's the, what's the hamstring strain that's, that's always there, but when you're walking around in your life you don't feel it. It's only when you go for a run or you get to 10K, you're like, "Ah, my hammy's hurting." Well, well, that was probably there. That imbalance is still there day to day. But until you crank it up, you're not having that exposed, and I think you intentionally did that with those episodes in some ways. It is what 2020 has done to many people completely unintentionally. It has stress tested their setup and their makeup to see where's your blind spot, where's your weakness.

Rich Roll 52:07 Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think the stress test analogy is, is perfect. I mean, I would add to that also that you can't be afraid to always try do things and evolve and iterate on something. And, um, I think that this was also an exercise in that. Like, I've been doing this show a certain way for a very long time, and I didn't want it to feel static or, um, boilerplate. And, you know, I felt compelled to like, how can we breathe fresh air into this? Well, let's try a different kind of format and see how that goes. And I think podcasting allows you to do that. Like, if it didn't work, like, I'll just go back to [laughs] doing it the way that I was doing it before. But in order to grow, you gotta step outside your comfort zone. And I was very much in a comfort zone with how I was doing the show, and it became very successful with that. But I also don't like the idea of just living in that space where it's easy. It's like, well, let's push the boundaries here. Like, what are... You know, what happens if we go in this direction, or what happens if we try that? And, you know, so, so, you know, the change in the format and the playing around with it was also, you know, a function of, of that sensibility of not getting too comfortable with doing things the way that I'd been doing them just because it was working.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:27 Yeah. You've used the word change a lot there, which of, of course is the second word from your book, your new book, Voicing Change. But we're talking about change. We're talking about long form conversation nuance. As you share your process with the podcast, I feel I've learnt a lot about what I can do in my own life to improve in certain areas. I would love to think that the listeners and viewers are also going, "Hey, well, that's about a podcast that's actually about my life and my relationships and how I show up for life." And I feel that the, the, the, the kind of subtitle, Inspiration and Timeless Wisdom from The Rich Roll Podcast, is very, very apt. So let's get into the book, um, which I actually-- That's why I said I like calling it a book because in many ways by labeling it a book, it kind of-- it goes alongside all the other books and small, you know, trade black and whites. It is, it is a work of art. It really is.

Rich Roll 54:26 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:26 It's something that I feel has got a life to it. You wanna hold it, you wanna feel it, you wanna touch it, you want to... You know, it, it's-- it feels different to me, and it's clear that a lot of time and attention has gone into it. What was the thinking behind it, and why have you decided to go down the self-publishing route?

Rich Roll 54:47 Yeah, so first of all, thank you. Um, I think it's a work of art, too, and it's, it's very much the product of, of a team effort. Um, yes, it's my podcast, and these are conversations that I've had with these individuals, but I'm, I'm blessed to be working with a number of very talented artists, photographers, graphic designers, um, who helped compile, uh, this book. So I'd be remiss in not crediting the team component of what went into creating this work of art. Um, and I'm super proud of it, and, and it is, you know, intended to be, uh, immersive in that respect, and, and tactile. Like, people are like, "When's the audiobook coming out?" I'm like, "You don't understand. [laughs] This is not... The, the audiobook is the podcast."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:32 [laughs]

Rich Roll 55:32 There's 1,000 hours. It's 1,000-hour audiobook. It's available for free. Um, but this was intended to be, uh, a love letter to the many guests like yourself that I've had on the show, a love letter to the audience, and an introduction for people who are unfamiliar with the work that I've done to give them a flavor and a sense of the experience that I'm trying to create with this show. And I'm somebody who cares a lot about detail and aesthetics and design, and I wanted the book to reflect that sensibility that I try to inject into the show. And it's very modern in a coffee table kind of format. But the idea is to leverage that, um, modern format in kind of a, uh, Trojan horse sort of way, in the sense that you open it up and you're like, "This is a beautiful book. Look at these amazing photographs." Like, that's what gets you in the door. But what gets you really engaged is the wisdom shared by these many people that I've been privileged to speak to over the years. So what we did is we went through, we created transcripts of, of... You know, I picked 50 people over the eight years that I thought was a, a, a really good cross-sectional representation of the kind of guests and the people that inspire me. We, we transcribed those podcasts. We found the best chunks of wisdom from each of them, and those are matched with introductions that I've written to contextualize who these people are and why I feel like their message is important. And it's curated in a way that I feel like it, it hits every aspect of, of personal growth and wellbeing, from diet and nutrition, to athletic performance, to mindset, to psychology, to entrepreneurship, to parenting, and everything in between. Um, and what's great is you can open it to any page and find something inspirational or interesting, and you can leave it out on your coffee table for your guests to, you know, peruse when they come over, and feel confident that it's kind of a beautiful work of art that anybody would enjoy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:55 Yeah. How important is design aesthetic? And, and I guess where I'm... Why that, why that interests me so much is all my books today, including the new one that comes out in the UK in just a few weeks, are designed. I spend an enormous amount of time with the designer trying to make them look really good, but look really good not just for design's sake, to make it something that people wanna pick up, to breathe life into it. Um, now you've do- you've taken it to another level. That's the truth. I mean, the, the... I don't know how much these things cost [laughs] to make-

Rich Roll 58:42 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:42 ... and whether any mainstream publisher would... what they would say to that. But I feel there's something about that where you... You know, of course, you could have put all that wisdom in a black and white book, and it would still have the same words in it.

Rich Roll 58:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:56 But the, the method of delivery, I feel hugely changes the experience, and therefore changes how often people are gonna pick it up and how much impact it's gonna have.

Rich Roll 59:10 Yeah, I, I would agree with that. And you are somebody who creates beautiful books, and it's clear that that design and aesthetics are important to you. They're certainly important to me. I think the details are, are critical, um, and they're, they're something that allows you to differentiate from everything else that's out there, and it allows you to, um, uh, demonstrate who you are in a visual context, if that makes sense. And I think ultimately what it does is it creates the emotional connection to the words and the work itself. So they are gonna be more apt to pick it up because it's beautiful and alluring in that regard, and there's an emotional relationship that occurs. Like, you know, the, the, the ribbed cover of the book is intentional. Like, it has a texture to it, and that's meaningful to me. Like, that's part of the experience that I'm trying to convey, and I think those things are important, and, and, um, and part of the kind of sensibility that I'm trying to convey. So in the way that I'm trying to connect emotionally with every guest, I'm trying to connect with the readers emotionally and do it in a visual format. Um, and I think it, you know, I think it's, I think it works, [laughs] you know, in that regard. And you're correct in that, like, the other part of your question that I didn't answer is, like, why did we self-publish? This is, I mean, th- we made this decision for several, several reasons, not the least of which is, uh, it is an expensive book to produce. And I knew, as somebody who's done cookbooks and made visual books in the past, that a publisher was gonna be reticent to pay the kind of advance that I think a book like this deserves because it's expensive to produce, and it's gonna be expensive for the consumer to buy, which means they're gonna sell less copies. So it doesn't quite work optimally in that traditional publishing format, and I now am in a position where I have the human resources and the financial resources to do it ourselves, and I wanted to have that experience of creating something pillar to post on our own without the interference of any gatekeepers or inter- any intermediary saying, "Well, this is not how we do it, you know, it has to be like this, and we need your subtitle to be like this for metadata," and like I didn't wanna deal with any of that stuff, and I didn't want anybody having any say in what the cover was gonna look like other than us.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:55 Oh.

Rich Roll 1:01:55 And I'm so proud of what we created, and I think it excels on every level, and I think is better than anything we would've been able to create with a publishing house. And now to own it outright and to manage every component of it from, you know, what's the page thickness and, like, all the tiny little details that go into creating a book, like, I feel more emotionally connected to this book as a result of that. And now we're sh- you know, we, we basically did the, did the print run, and we're managing the fulfillment, and we're shipping it ourselves and doing it only through our website, not even through Amazon. Like, we've sidestepped Amazon, so it's really very much a DIY thing that is completely outside of the whole publishing paradigm altogether. Now, that presents its own challenges because shipping charges are extensive. Like, if I wanna send this book to you in the UK, it's gonna cost [laughs] like we're so acclimated to, like, free shipping or super sh- super cheap shipping as a result of Amazon, but since we're not using Amazon, it's more expensive, and that means it's less accessible, and we're gonna sell less copies. But this is really a book for the fan. It's a gift from a fan to somebody else. Um, it doesn't have to sell to millions and millions of people, and there's something really liberating about not having to worry about what the pre-order campaign looks like and how many copies sell in the first week and making this list or that list. Like, I honestly don't care at all about any of that. This is just, uh, a work of passion that we created that we're making available for people that are interested in it. It's doing great. People are loving it. I'm super proud of it. And, and frankly, from a financial perspective, knowing that we're making, you know, instead of $1 a copy or whatever it is [laughs] when you, when you work with a publisher, like, you know, we have, uh... You know, we're gonna make, like, $20 a copy, which is the way it should be. So it has its challenges, and we, you know, dealing with customer service and all of that is tricky and, you know, we're learning as we go, but it's incredibly gratifying to, to do it yourself and, and to, you know, just own it completely, um, and I'm really enjoying that aspect of it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:20 Yeah, I, I think it's just wonderful. I think it's a book for anyone. I think it's a great gift to give other people. It's a great gift to give yourself. I feel it's so gorgeous that on a day where you're not feeling so good, you can just sit there with a cup of tea or a cup of coffee and just randomly open a page. It's, it's really nice. You don't have to read from start to finish. You can just open it. There is something about what you're saying which is real artistic freedom in terms of every aspect of it, and you know, that's the beautiful thing about it. It, it very much, I feel... You know, I remember, Rich, I was at your house, um, what are we? We're recording this in November. I think it was last September, so 14 months ago.

Rich Roll 1:05:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:08 I think I was chatting to you about The Stress Solution on your show, and in between podcasts, I think we, we went into your, your gorgeous house, and I saw the kind of early proofs on the table. You're like, "This is what I'm working on." I was like, "Oh, man, that looks beautiful." And the, and so to see that actually, you know, you very kindly sent me a copy, and it's a gorgeous experience even from getting it, the kind of the cardboard box, the kind of... It feels special. It's the opposite of disposable bite-sized media that we don't have time for. This is, this is an experience, right? This is a-

Rich Roll 1:05:44 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:44 ... a beautiful human experience, buying your book, receiving it, and then getting the wisdom from it.

Rich Roll 1:05:53 I thank you. Yeah, thank you for that. I appreciate it. I love it, and I think also, um, to the point about, you know, design because this is such a design-heavy book, like you've been to my house. I live in an architectural home, and, and I've learned by living in the home that I live in how important, like, architectural details are, which seem to be indulgent, but actually, like, are so, so to such a great degree, like, inform the experience of how you live your life. And the book is kind of a, uh, is a literary reflection of that sensibility, and it's also a way of saying, to your point about, you know, bite-sized disposable media, that these podcasts that I've done, some of which are, are many years old at this point, just because they are in the past doesn't mean they're any less Relevant or important now than they were when I recorded them, and I wanted to, this book to be a reminder of that. Um, but also to say I understand, you know, you don't have 100 hours to go and listen to all of these, so here's, like, in written form, a taste of what these people have to offer. So you can look at it and say, "This is a person I wanna learn more about," or, "This person I don't care about," [laughs] um, to, uh, and to revisit maybe podcasts you've listened to quite a long time ago as a refresher course.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:28 Where can people order the book?

Rich Roll 1:07:31 Um, it's available only on my website richroll.com. Richroll.com/vc is the landing page for the book, and we ship it globally. Um, shipping charges in the UK are g- [laughs] are gonna be expensive. We don't make any money on that. It's just, it is what it is. We're always looking for better shipping options, but we can get it to you, uh, and that's the place to go to pick it up and learn more.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:58 The final area I felt I wanted to probe with you, if you are willing to go there, is something I, I spoke about with a friend earlier on today who I was catching up with, and he's got, uh, teenage kids. I don't. My children-

Rich Roll 1:08:18 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:19 ... are 10 and seven, so I feel that in many ways how I've dealt with this, um, the restrictions and the changes in society, I feel that they, in some ways, have been quite sheltered. Like, I think they're young enough where I can shelter them from it and interact in a way where I would like to think there has been minimal impact. Of course, I don't know that for sure, but I would like to think so. But I do wonder if having teenagers where connecting with others and getting that independence and that sort of restriction, it's something he's certainly found challenging, and he feels that there's been, um, a few problems there that have needed to be overcome, and also really struggling with the amount of screen time that has ensued from this and the reluctance to change that, and I feel he's, he's wrestling with a few issues there, and I thought, "I, I wonder if Rich might be wrestling with some of these issues as well," or what is his experience? So I wonder if you, you can sort of shed some light on whether this is something you're observing in your own life and if you have any kind of wisdom to share on that.

Rich Roll 1:09:43 Yeah, it's been incredibly difficult. I've got, uh, two, two daughters, two older, two older stepsons and two daughters. My daughters are s- 16, almost 17, and 13, and it's been unbelievably difficult for them, and I'm so sympathetic to that because their entire lives have been pulled out from underneath them, and now they're just at home at a moment in their lives where their social interactions are of paramount importance, especially with, you know, teenage girls is [laughs] what I'm dealing with. It's incredibly difficult. Like, having played a large part, a large role as a stepfather to the boys who are now 25 and 24, I thought that I had, um, some chops when it came to parenting, but nothing prepared me for the strange, mysterious genus of human that is the teenage girl. [laughs] Like, this has really flattened me in so many ways, and they've become my greatest teachers because they challenge me to such a profound effect, and learning how to kind of surf their, um, the vicissitudes of, of, you know, their emotional experience has been really tricky and difficult. It would be under normal circumstances, but in a quarantined pandemic situation, everything is heightened, you know, a hundredfold. Um, and we've gone from this parenting mandate of screens are bad to suddenly you need to be on your screen all day, and I think that that's confusing for a young mind, for the parent to switch gears like that, to say, "You shouldn't be on your phone," to now your entire experience, schooling experience is relegated to the screen. So for example, my older daughter, she goes to an art high school, um, that it's like a performing arts high school where practical visual arts are a huge part of her aca- her academic curriculum. Well, it's all on Zoom now. Her Zoom day starts at 8:00 AM, and it goes to 4:00 PM. Those are just her academic classes. Then she has her practical art that she has to do. Then she has her homework, which is also performed on a screen, and it's exhausting, and it's really made me rethink the value of this educational paradigm because the anxiety that she's experiencing, having no ability to, you know, untether herself from this computer screen and have any kind of experience, um, outside of it, has really been incredibly difficult for her, and I'm sympathetic to that to the point where myself being somebody who cares a lot about the educational experience and who is very driven, I'm now saying like, "I don't care what your grades are because-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:49 Yeah

Rich Roll 1:12:49 ... this is making you into a crazy person. Like, what good is coming from any of this?" And, you know, she really- She's a very social animal and needs to be with a lot of people in order to feel grounded, and now she can't do any of that, and it's been really trying. Conversely, my other daughter is very much an introvert, and she's doing a lot better with all of this, but you can see the progressive withdrawal that occurs. Like, they just become more and more withdrawn the more removed from the kind of daily cycle of being social animals becomes. And how you parent through that is, is a challenge, and I don't know that I have, you know, the ultimate answer other than [laughs] you know, to try to do the next right thing to stimulate them in, in certain ways. But I think that this is a situation that's gonna have an indelible and unbelievably profound impact on this generation of people, and what that turns into, you know, five, 10 years from now when they're now in the workplace, you know, what is, what is... You know, what, what are their priorities going to be? Like, what is the lens through which-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:00 Yeah

Rich Roll 1:14:00 ... they perceive the world? And I don't know that we can anticipate what that's gonna look like other than, you know, my sense that it's significant. And I think we shouldn't be underestimating, um, the kind of impact that this ex- experience is having on, on, on young people.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:18 Yeah. It, it's interesting what you shared about the, the educational experience because the narrative is like, you know, the good schools are putting things online, and therefore kids can keep learning. But I'm not convinced. [laughs]

Rich Roll 1:14:33 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:33 I'm not convinced at all, and I understand the rationale behind it, but I do think there is a consequence. I think there's a behavioral consequence. There's an emotional consequence. There's a conflict of messaging consequence, as you sort of alluded to at the start there. And I very much have, have been at very... Y- I appreciate my kids are younger, so I don't think grades [laughs] at 10 and 7 necessarily are the same as at your kids' age, you know, as teenagers.

Rich Roll 1:15:00 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:01 I, I certainly accept that. But I've very much been like, "Listen, if you don't wanna do that class, you know, you just wanna go and play in the garden, um, or go and read a book or go and play piano, you go for it." And that's also a conflicting messaging, uh, as well because it's kind of like, well, let's say things do go back to the way they were in schools. It's kind of like, well, hold on a minute. Daddy wasn't that bothered before, and what-

Rich Roll 1:15:23 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:23 ... now he is bothered? You know, it's-

Rich Roll 1:15:24 Yeah. I know. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:24 I, I think there is a confusion. I, I... Hey, man, I think... And I, I, I think I said this on your show on my last appearance that I think some of this is hard to measure, but we're not measuring it anyway. We're not measuring what we can measure. We're measuring an acute rate of something that we can... You know, we, we can easily get figures that we can ch- chuck on the news, but we're not measuring the mental health consequences or the fact that the amount of handwashing diktats that have been there, and I'm not... I, I'm sort of... I'm saying the consequence of that will be, I think, and I hope I'm wrong, is masses of OCD in five years, in 10 years, where people think they have to handwash everywhere all the time before they do anything, um, or be scared of other human beings because-

Rich Roll 1:16:25 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:25 ... they are a risk of infection to me. And I, I... Unfortunately, I think there could be a mental health epidemic that is about to be unleashed, and I hope I'm wrong, and I hope that people, people with platforms like yours or mine can do our bit to try and contribute. But I-

Rich Roll 1:16:48 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:48 ... I do worry. I do worry. I think this has been so transformative, 2020, that to think there will not be a consequence, um... I think on, when I, when I spoke to you, I think on the second time on your show, I spoke about touch, human touch, and how important that is for our reptilian brain and, and what it does and, you know, that's kind of been going out of society for many months now. So I don't know, Rich. I mean, would you agree? Do you think we are on the cusp of something? And potentially to sort of finish off this conversation, what sort of words of wisdom might you offer people to think about to help them through this?

Rich Roll 1:17:31 Mm. Well, before I answer that, I'll, I'll just chime in on your last thought and to say that I, that I agree. You know, I think that it's devastating that we're raising a generation of people who are terrified of human touch. How long is it gonna be before you can be in a room with somebody else and not worry about what might happen if you shake their hand or hug them? And what is the long-term impact of that trepidation on a young mind? And I think we're not, we're not adequately calibrating that in how we're responding to this virus. And that's not to say that, um, the pandemic isn't something to be taken seriously, but I think it's incumbent upon us as parents to ensure that we're not raising a generation of people who are terrified by the world, right? How do we responsibly navigate through this without becoming, um, unnecessarily afraid of things that we can't control? And I think that's where the work is required. And I think that, you know, short of that, we are gonna see massive, uh, mental, um, suffering as a result of this as young people mature. And [laughs] you know, what that looks like, I don't know. But in terms of, like, uh, you know, landing this on a more hopeful note- I think the only thing we can do, you know, to bring it back to stoicism in some regard, is to identify the things that we can control and focus on the controllables and let go of everything else, and to shift our perspective on everything that is transpiring across the globe and in culture from a fear-based perspective into this sense of what it can do for us. The idea being, like, this isn't happening to us, it's happening for us. Where is the lesson in all of this? Where is the learning opportunity? Where is the growth opportunity in what is transpiring? And I think the more you can kind of inhabit that sensibility, where you're approaching these obstacles and these challenges not from a place of being afraid and, and rearing back from it, but leaning into it and saying, "Oh, this is revealing to me this thing that, uh, you know, I didn't wanna look at, but now I have the opportunity to look at. Let me work through this," or, "With this restriction, um, how can I find something, uh, you know, a creative solution to the problem that I'm trying to solve?" Um, and the more you can train yourself to approach all of these difficulties from that perspective, I think not only do you become more antifragile and resilient and, and more robust in your, in your stress response to the world, you, you grow as a result. And I think, you know, you're, you put yourself in a position to emerge out of this very strange era, um, not only a little bit more self-actualized, but in a b- better position to handle, um, greater difficulties down the road.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:46 If that conversation resonated with you, here is another incredibly powerful one that I really think you're going to enjoy. Give it a click and let me know what you think.

Guest 1:20:55 Only do and believe that which moves you towards your goals. It has been so transformative in my own life to do that. A rule that I live by and a rule that I aggressively try to give anybody that will take it is