Joe Wicks on The Power of Positivity | Feel Better Live More Podcast

Joe Wicks 0:00 Every person that's mastered their craft or their art or what they're good at, there's always been a struggle. But now I've just trained myself to be positive and be optimistic in every situation, and that's something you can really learn to do, and it feels so good when you realize you can be positive. You can live your life not moaning about things and like actually taking control. Because when you do that, when you realize you can react differently and you can see things positively, life is better and you can be so much happier. [upbeat music] Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, let's do it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:32 Let's do it. So Joe, how you doing?

Joe Wicks 0:34 I'm good, mate. I've had a really busy weekend. I don't know if you saw, but I took part in a 24-hour PE challenge for Children in Need, so that was quite intense.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:42 I did see indeed, and, uh, I was, I was basically gonna ask you, how was it and how are you feeling now?

Joe Wicks 0:48 Well, it was tough. I mean, it was difficult more like mentally, you know, just having to be awake for 24 hours. I like my sleep, you know. I really value sleep. I love it. So to be awake for 24 hours exercising, it was quite low intensity really. I was cycling and rowing and walking, but then I had to do five 20-minute HIIT workouts throughout that time. That was quite tough. But then also, I didn't realize this, but when I got there, it was guest after guest. I was presenting a live show. I thought I was gonna turn up with my iPad, watch a series of Netflix, listen to some podcasts, and just zone out, but I was literally interview back to back. So it was quite just draining. I was so tired by the end of it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26 Yeah, uh, I, I c- well, I s- I was gonna say I can't imagine, but I can't really imagine. I guess the only thing, I'm just trying to think, is my junior doctor days and doing like 36-hour shifts and the way you felt after that. But I can't compare basically in a nutshell. What was the hardest moment for you personally whilst you were doing it?

Joe Wicks 1:44 Well, I had this wonderful guy called Professor Gre- uh, Dr. Greg. Um, I don't know if you've met him before, but he's wonderful. He does a lot of endurance stuff. He's done a lot of 24-hour challenges for kind of Children in Need and whatnot. And if it wasn't for him, I think I would've quit because my lower back got so tight just from standing up all day, and then I'd be rowing and running and jogging and boxing. But every, every hour on the hour, I got a five-minute break, so he was clicking my back. He was really proper, like rolling out my muscles in my back and doing my feet, and we'd change socks and shoes and all that. And that really helped. And he was so, 'cause he's done so many posi- he's done so many 24-hour challenges, he was so positive. Like, he was such an amazing energy to be around. He was like, "You're gonna get through it. It's gonna be tough. It's gonna suck between sort of 2:00 AM and 6:00 AM." So he was so good at coaching me through it, and that definitely helped a lot.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:31 It's interesting you saying that, Joe, because you're someone who is so well known for, for, for many things, you know, inspiring people, motivating people, energizing people. I guess the thing I really respect about you, I guess more than anything, is your genuineness, and it's the little things. I always notice that you always pay attention to the little things. You remember who you're speaking to. Just little basic things that actually are really quite impressive, particularly when someone has a profile like yours. But it's interesting for me that you're talking about Greg keeping you going mentally and getting you through your challenge because that's kind of what you do for us and for the public, right? When we feel we can't go on or, you know, it's not my day, I can't get motivated, you're able to do that for us in the same way that Greg did that for you.

Joe Wicks 3:26 Well, going back to the first point around, um, being grateful for people that are involved. You know, um, I really believe in it was a team effort, you know, from the BBC Radio 2 DJs, to the technicians, and everyone was social distanced obviously, but everyone that took part. You know, it, it really made that amazing thing and it was a challenge. It was really entertaining. And because of that teamwork, we raised £2.5 million. I couldn't have done that on my own. I couldn't have done it without, you know, Zoe Ball and Sara Cox and all the people that were pushing it for 24 hours consistently. So that was a big part of it, and I'm very, I'm very aware of that. So whenever I do these events, I always wanna thank everyone and really kinda let them know that it was a team effort. I think it's important to remember that. And in terms of the motivation thing, so I had never done a 24-hour challenge, so in my head I was like, "This is gonna be really tough. I don't know if I've got the motivation and the mental strength to get through it." But because Dr. Greg was there, so positive, so upbeat, saying, "Look, you're gonna be fine one hour at a time," it helped me. You know, he, he coached me through it. But now I've done a 24-hour challenge, I... and if you said to me, "Joe, could you do it again?" Because I've pushed through that barrier in my head, that mental barrier, that limiting belief that it's gonna be so hard, I'm gonna quit at like 2:00 AM, I do believe I could do another one, and I could do maybe a harder one. I could do like a, you know, an outdoor one or running or rowing or an endurance event. I, I do think when we achieve something, when you push yourself beyond that physical, um, barrier, that limiting belief, then you start to really think, "Actually, I could do... I could have done another 10 hours." You know, I really could have, but it would've been, it would've been horrible. But I think it's just pushing through those barriers and believing in yourself.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:53 Yeah. I mean, I imagine that there's a really beautiful mirror here, like you hearing that story with you, but also just thinking about what you do for so many people. So you, I'm sure, have had hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of messages over the years in terms of what your content has done for people, and I guess one of the things that must come is that you help people do more than they thought possible, just like you did last week.

Joe Wicks 5:26 Well, that's my gift to the world. You know, I, I talk about this a lot. You know, I've got this energy inside me, um, and I know I can inspire and motivate, and I love it. I'm so driven by that. I'm so purpose driven. And a lot of people will look at me from a distance and think it's like this big marketing machine and it's all about YouTube views and book sales, but that all came completely organically. You know, it was never intentional. Even this year with the fundraising, I didn't plan on being a fundraiser. I just love doing stuff with schools. I love getting kids moving.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:53 Yeah.

Joe Wicks 5:53 And I, I needed to do those PE with Joe workouts to help people. So I just, I just very much, I focus on that. I focus on what I'm good at and, and that is t- inspiring, you know, young children and adults to move and feel good and smile and laugh, and I'm gonna try and do it as long as I possibly can.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:08 Yeah. You really are inspiring. It's that passion that I think is so engaging for everyone, and I'm sure is one of the, the many reasons why you've been so successful and so impactful. What's interesting for me, Joe, is that I've seen your messaging change over- A period of years. You know, when I'm looking at your new book, uh, and I was, uh, right at the start of it, there's a real focus now saying your, you're sort of more focused on internal wellbeing for people rather than external looks, and I find that really interesting. So I'm interested as to how did that come about? Is that something that just gradually changed as you started getting feedback, or perhaps has becoming a father changed that for you?

Joe Wicks 6:52 There's various factors in that. I mean, I was very much driven by, you know, I was really skinny when I was younger, and I wanted to change the way I looked. I wanted to go to the gym and get, you know, get stronger. I didn't see it as a mental health thing. But when I look back to my childhood and, you know, my upbringing, it was quite chaotic. It was stressful. You know, my, my mum and dad were arguing a lot. And I definitely now, looking back, exercise was my therapy. You know, PE was my therapy. Doing afterschool sports, it was like, that was my thing. And, and so I've always had that fitness element in my life that I didn't really know was about mental health. But, you know, over the, over the years, I've got my online fitness business, which has obviously been very successful. And from the tens of thousands of testimonials that I read, I've started to see a trend. And in the early days, it was about fat loss. It was, you know, Lean in 15, transform the way you look, burn body fat, get lean for summer, and all that kind of language and that narrative because that's what I thought people wanted. And although that is a big motivation, people do wanna change the way they look, when I read the testimonials after the 90 days, that's where the magic is. That's where you realize people are doing it because they feel good, they feel energized. They've got more confidence. They're more patient with their children. They're, um, more ambitious at work. You know, it can, it, it really changed your life in so many more ways than just the fat loss and the before and after image. So this book really focuses on that. I talk about, you know, I'm not a life coach, but I've just asked a few questions like, you know, what triggers you? You know, what, what caused you to go on a little binging session, or what makes you neglect your health and fitness, and what is a successful day to you? So that you can start to see these signs and really tap into the mental health benefits of exercise. Because once you do, I think that's where you're gonna get success.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:28 Yeah. No, I love it. A- and actually, that, that section you just mentioned, those questions on that double page, they're really good, you know.

Joe Wicks 8:35 Yeah, I'm just looking at it now. It's nice in the table because I, I had, I had... The idea was to base, like I call this, you know, the, the chapter, the section, let's get into the psy- the psychology of things to help you understand, you know, what your motivations are, what makes you feel demotivated, what makes you fall off the wagon, what makes you feel good. And you might start to realize things about you, and it could be a t- it could've been a trigger or a moment in your life that you don't really know or that, you know, you haven't thought about. So by uncovering these things, you may not have trauma and, like, loads of trouble in the past, but there could've been a moment or a relationship that knocked your confidence or, you know, got you, you know, put you off the gym. And so I'm trying to establish, you know, like one of the questions is, what does a successful day look like to you? Because if you know what that looks like, you can start to plan for it and start to put little goals in and little kind of, um, habit-forming things. And then, you know, what does an unsuccessful day look like to you? Because by seeing these moments and trends, you can start to kind of see it coming and maybe put something in place that's gonna stop you from, um, going to have a blowout or turning to alcohol or, or you know, or, um, junk food. And these are just nice little questions that I really think, you know, can open up your mindset. And the final one is, do you believe you can succeed? Now, that's the most important question because so many people, when it comes to dieting and, and fitness and transformation, have a, already feel that they're gonna fail because they've tried so many diets in the past. But my approach to fitness and nutrition and food is all about l- you know, longevity and sustainability and enjoying your food and exercising regularly to feel good all the time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:04 What does a successful day look like to you, Joe?

Joe Wicks 10:08 For me, a successful day is definitely, you know, centered around my family and, and being with my kids, being present at some point. So whether it's going down and having breakfast together, going for a nice walk, I really need that. You know, I need that part of the day, and I love doing, um, so bath time and story time. Like we, you know, we give the kids a bath together. We sit down and we read. Indy's a bit older so, so I can read with Indy, and I love that. I love that moment. So that's really important to me, um, for connection to my wife and kids. Um, I need to do a workout. Like for me, it's about mental health. I ver- I was obviously very driven being lean, having the abs and that, but I'm 35 now. I'm a dad of two, and your motiv- your motivations do start to change. You know, I wanna be lean. I wanna be strong and healthy, but I just wanna have energy. And for me, when I exercise, I'm so much more patient. I'm such a nicer person to be around. It's kind of like I go out to the gym, I release that stress, I do that HIIT workout. And when I walk down into the living room and there's chaos and the two kids are screaming at me, I'm, I'm just different. Like I'm, I can, I can take it easier. I can be more understanding. So that comes through fitness. And then the final thing would be, um, you know, a really good day of food. So, you know, three healthy meals where I haven't gone down the shop and bought a tub of Ben & Jerry's, um, or eaten loads of crisps and choc- 'cause I do do that. I have emotional days where I just get stressed or I, I've got loads on my mind, and I, I just wanna go and get a takeaway and a Ben & Jerry's, you know? And I do do that, but I don't feel great for it. I always feel tired. It always really wears me out. Um, and the final thing, the last thing which I've, I now really truly emphasize, and I know you talk a lot about this in your book, the importance of sleep. You know, it's so important for the whole ecosystem of your life to have a good night's sleep, and so many people have that mentality of, "Oh, I'll sleep, you know, I'll sleep when I'm older or I'll sleep when I'm dead." But it's so important for your mindset, your mental health, and for all the other things, for the food, for the fitness. If you're not getting a good night's sleep, everything else goes out the window.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:00 Yeah. Oh, for sure. I mean, thanks for sharing that. I think it's, it's great for people to get an insight as to what, what a perfect day looks like for Joe Wicks. Um, you know, you mentioned sometimes when you're feeling really stressed or there's a lot going on, you'll get a takeaway, tub of ice cream, and you know, probably scoff your face with it, and you don't feel great when you do that. And, uh, I think this is w- is a point worth sort of talking about because a lot of people, as I'm sure you've seen- That is often the trigger to get them off plan, or they, you know, they've got, they've made a plan. They're gonna get healthier. They wanna, uh, they wanna improve their physical health, their mental health. But one bad day or one, I shouldn't even call it a bad day, I guess one decision that's less good than the decisions they wanna make often throws them off. Has that ever happened to you? Um, and how does guilt play into that? Because guilt, I think, is a very toxic emotion that when people do that without recognizing that, "Hey, look, you know what? I had a stressful day. That was my way of dealing with the stress."

Joe Wicks 13:04 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:04 It's very different when you have an understanding about why you did something compared to when you actually are kind of ridden with guilt.

Joe Wicks 13:12 There's definitely, for me, there's no guilt around it. You know, when I have a day, like, let's say, I call- I don't call it a cheat day, but if I have a blowout, you know, and I, I go around the shop and do a choccy run, and I'll get a massive bar of chocolate and a tub of ice cream, and I'll get popcorn and then some fruit pastilles. I go for it, you know, a can of Coke, and I do it, but instantly my body reject, not rejects it, but it, um, it struggles a bit. It struggles to break down all those sugars. I get cramps. I get, you know, instantly on the toilet. It's not good for me. So although it, it feels like a treat, you think, "Oh, eating a box of Ferrero Rocher is a treat," but it's not really a treat. So for me, there's no emotional, um, baggage and, and kind of, um, guilt, but it's just, like, physically I feel drained, and I just go, "You know what? I'm not gonna do that again." It reminds me why I eat good food. You know, when I put that kinda stuff in my system, it really does make me realize why I love cooking healthy food at home and why I exercise. But I do have days where I can literally go upstairs to the gym or downstairs to the kitchen, and it, it might not be chocolate. It might be, like, eight Weetabix and four slices of toast with marmalade and four crumpets with butter. Like, I can eat... It, uh, depends what mood I'm in. Sometimes I go for the fitness, and I feel fantastic. Other days, you know, I, I, I get... I g- I go for the food and have a little blowout, but I d- I still don't feel guilty about it. I just go, "You know what? That was today. Tomorrow morning, get up, do a HIIT session, and use the energy." Like, that's... I've just consumed loads of energy. Get up and use it. So I don't let it become a week or two weeks, and that's what I think a lot of people do. They get dragged into, like, a, a negative mindset where they go, "I've blown it now, I'm just gonna keep going," and then a week or two weeks go by. But I, I always just say, you know, it's a day, and it's just you've had that moment in time. Move on and start again in the morning.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:47 Yeah. Yeah, great advice. Um, Joe, you mentioned earlier, and I've heard you talk about this before, I think once, that you were, I think, teased a little bit about being skinny. Um, and it's something that really connected with me because I think I've shared this on the podcast before, but I know... I-I've got this memory. I can't remember when it was exactly. I think it was at secondary school, and I think I remember being in the changing rooms, um, and taking my, you know, top off to get changed for PE or football or whatever it was and feeling really self-conscious that I was skinny, and you could see my ribs, and that drove me. 'Cause at about the same time, you were getting Men's Health coming out and seeing kind of, you know, ripped men on the front covers, and thinking, "Oh, I wanna look like that." And I think, for me, it did drive me to start becoming obsessed with press-ups and sit-ups. Like, literally I would do them every night. Uh, and I'm not, I'm not convinced it was a good thing. I mean, I think it got me fit, but I think the drive behind it was not necessarily as, uh, as productive a drive as it could've been. And I just wonder how that was for you, 'cause it s- it sounds as though you also had some insecurities that drove you to start working out, and I wonder how you dealt with that and whether that's still something that bothers you or whether you've l- uh, sort of, let it go and left it behind you.

Joe Wicks 16:11 I definitely have a similar experience in, in, uh, in terms of, um... I was, yeah, very skinny. Always, you know, I was really skinny, like, from a kid, you know, skinny legs, skinny arms, no muscle. And my brother Nicky would say, like... It was, like, it was the one thing that just really would get to me. Like, and I remember him saying, you know, "You've got skinny legs," and it, it would be here. May- and maybe a couple of kids at school said it. Um, and yeah, like, it was just one of those things that you don't realize, you know, that it does stick in your mind. It does affect your confidence. It's like if someone says, "You've got a crooked teeth," like, crooked tooth, but your h- all your teeth are straight except one crooked tooth, and all you can think about is getting braces or Invisalign, you know, that. Do you know what I mean? It's these things that can sort of, they plant in your mind. So I was very skinny, and I remember when I got to 16, I got my first job at Wilkinsons in Epsom. I was working on the till at Wilkinsons, now called Wilkos. And-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:59 [laughs]

Joe Wicks 16:59 ... I got 50 pounds a week, and I used that money to join Holmes Place in Epsom. And I remember the gym membership was, like, 70 pounds a month. So it was really expensive, but I just valued it. I didn't wanna go down the park and spend that money on cigarettes and booze or, you know, whatever it, whatever people might have been doing, or spend it on trainers. I literally used 70 pounds a month. I joined the gym, and I used to go every day after school. So at 16 years old, I'd go, you know, I'd walk from my s- my school in Epsom to the Holmes Place in, in the s- middle of the center of the c- of the town, and I would go there for, like, an hour or two hours, just lifting weights. Didn't know what I was doing. Then I'd have a sauna and a spa and chill out. But it was just something I always valued. I always just got into it, and from that moment it's been in my DNA ever since.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:42 Yeah. I mean, it strikes me when I look at your life story, Joe, that you've always been doing this. The scale's just changed, but it sounds as though this is what you've always done. Like, I've heard a story about what you were like in PE. I don't know if it's true or not. Not everything we read online is true. But is it true that in your PE lessons you were the first out, and you were trying to motivate and, sort of, gear and get everyone going?

Joe Wicks 18:05 It's 100% true, and the more I talk about that, that experience to journalists, the more it come, becomes clear that... Because when I was in school- I was very disruptive. I was, had a very short attention span. So in maths, English, and science, I would have annoyed you. I would have distracted you. I would have been leaning back in my chair, you know, being a clown. But when it came to PE, I loved it. I ran down there. I wanted to be straight on there, getting dressed. And, you know, when I, when I was a kid, like, and you're playing PE, you can't play football on your own, so you need a team. So I would be rounding up the kids saying, "Come on, get your kit on." And then there'd be people dragging their feet going, "That's not for me." They'd, you know, they'd be more into their tech or their kind of creative stuff. But I still tried to get everyone to do their best and really encourage them to have a go at it. And so I do, I do think even then I was a little kind of personal trainer, if you like. Um, and rounding the kids up saying, "Come on, it's tennis time. Grab the kit. Let's go." And I'd be running to the shed and picking things up. 'Cause the quicker I got that lesson going, the happier I was.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:58 [laughs]

Joe Wicks 18:59 So if it dragged out and I only got a half an hour session, I'd be upset. So I, I would really be trying to get everyone on the same page. And that is quite ironic when you think that now I do that as a living. But the whole PE with Joe thing, the lockdown workouts, I was supposed to be a PE teacher. I just didn't have the patience. I went to work as a teaching assistant for a year. So-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:17 [laughs]

Joe Wicks 19:18 ... I have come full circle. You know, I was a personal trainer, running boot camps, doing one-to-ones. Then I went on this UK tour, then I done PE with Joe, and I've come full circle. I'm doing what I always knew I was gonna do, which was a- you know, inspire kids to move and exercise.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:32 Joe, I tell you, that gives me tingles hearing that because it's like you were doing that at probably at 10, 11, 12, whatever it was. You were being the Body Coach [laughs] at school, right, before any of this. And it's, it, it just strikes me, you're someone... And maybe this is why you come across as so content. You strike me as someone who is, who's living your life. You're not living the life that society expects of you or what other people may want you to do. You've found your passion. It just so happens you're doing it on a global scale. But you could just as easily have not been doing it on a global scale. And I get the impression from you that if you were a PE teacher in a school helping 30 kids in PE class, I get... Of course, we'll never know, but I get the impression from you that you'd be happy and content doing that. Do you know what I mean?

Joe Wicks 20:23 I think so too. I really do. I, I love being a personal trainer. I love doing boot camps. You know, I just kind of outgrew it in the sense that I wanted to reach more people. And just by chance, I got on Instagram and I started sharing videos and started sharing recipes. And I, I never had... You have to understand, like, when I started sharing my videos on Instagram, I did not think I was gonna get approached by a book publisher to create books. I did not start my YouTube channel to do PE with Joe and have 80 million views. And I, I didn't do PE with Joe to get an MBE. But when you're so driven and so passionate, you just do it. You don't know why. It's like an energy behind me just pushing me forward. Um, and I, and I've always had that. And I do, like you said, if I was, if I wasn't the s- if I wasn't successful as the personal trainer and a Body Coach, I, I probably would have gone into teaching. I probably would have been a school teacher, and I would have been very happy doing it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:12 Yeah. It's so lovely that, because I think many of us in life, we're struggling, we're trying to live someone else's life, we're trying to do what we think we should do rather than actually what we're meant to do. And it's, you know, it's, it, it's a very, very inspiring story. When I think of that energy, Joe, I'm sort of thinking where does that come from? Because there must have been setbacks along the way. Um, like, I, I know that, I, I've heard that you tried to do boot camp classes and there was some times when no one would rock up to your boot camp classes. Very much like a lot of bands who've, who now play stadiums have said, "Yeah, we played to no people in bars before." It's like, it's as if that was never the goal. It's like, "No, I love playing music, so I'll play to no people, or I'll play to a thousand people." It's like you love helping people. And if no one turns up, you're gonna keep rocking up day after day. And it's, it's, it's certainly not an overnight success, is it?

Joe Wicks 22:04 Well, I talk about that a little bit recently about... I've talked about that recently, that my success is actually an eight-year overnight success. You know, it looks like I had all these ideas and PE with Joe and, you know, but I was actually doing UK tours. I, I've been doing this for four or five years now, trying to go to schools and engage children in fitness. So it was just the right time, you know, with the lockdown. But yeah, I do think that every person that's mastered their craft or their art or what they're good at, there's always been a struggle. You know, there's always been a, a time where no one turned up, where no one was booking tickets to your concert or coming to your boot camp. But I never for one second thought, "I'm gonna give up now and go and work at Holmes Place or David Lloyd." Um, I just wanted to be my own, you know, boss. I wanted to have my own business. And I would use the energy. Um, once I packed up my kit and I'd go over to Richmond Station. I, I, I lived in Surbiton, so I would flyer outside Surbiton Station and Richmond Station, you know, morning and night, all through rush hour, and I hated it. I was so embarrassed. I didn't wanna do it, but it's all I could afford. I couldn't afford to do any marketing. That was all I could do. And I applied that principle to Instagram when I posted my first Lean in 15 video. All my mates laughed at me, thought I was a plonker. Everyone was telling me to go back to my boot camps. YouTube, when I s- started that, no one subscribes, no one's doing your videos. What makes you keep filming them on your terrace on your own with your camera and, and uploading them? And now today, six million people a month do those workouts. But the key, the key thing is that that would never have happened unless I put in the work in the early days and I believed in myself and believed in the purpose of that YouTube channel, which is essentially the home of home workouts. It's free content. I've got my books, I've got my online business, but this is about free content which anyone can take part in. And for me, honestly, my, my greatest achievement is, is PE with Joe Lockdown and, and the growth of my YouTube channel, because that's content that anyone, anywhere in the world, whether you're living in the Philippines, India, South America, Australia, you can go onto that channel and do a workout completely for free, and six million people a month are doing that and, and that's just because I've been so consistent and never gave up.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:08 Yeah. I mean, what a message for anyone listening to this who is confused in their life and is trying to find where to go next. And sort of even hearing you say that, that, n- you know, your mates were laughing at you when you posted your first video. "Mate, who the hell do you think you are putting out content like that? You know, no one's gonna like that sort of stuff." But, you know, um, it's-

Joe Wicks 24:28 Yeah, it's true

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:30 It's about having that belief, isn't it? It's how- having that belief and I, I just, you know, what, what, how... You say you don't know where that comes from. I mean, is there anything in your childhood, if you think back, is there anything, do you feel that has given you that extra belief? 'Cause not everyone will go the extra mile like you have.

Joe Wicks 24:47 So I'll give you a little bit of background about my childhood quickly to explain, you know, my history. My mum left home at 15. You know, she wasn't educated. She didn't get any H- GCSEs or A-levels. Um, my dad's a roofer, you know, so I'm not from like an ambitious family of entrepreneurs who are, like, really hard working. Um, and then my mum had my brother, Nicky, at 17. She had me when she was 19. Um, and my dad, throughout my whole life, has battled through drug addiction, through heroin ad- through heroin addiction. Um, he's clean today, which is amazing. Um, and, you know, we've got a great friendship and relationship, but there was times when it was difficult because I didn't understand why my dad couldn't be there and, you know, there was a lot of instability. Like, and I suppose now as an adult and as a parent, I'm, I'm really focused on having a strong family unit and being present and being stable and being, like, being, being really kind of, um, committed to my wife and my kids and being there for them, and I suppose I apply that to my business and my work. I just care about people. I think I've realized as I've grown up, I think maybe when I was younger, I was probably more selfish and not very optimistic and a little bit, um, pessimistic, but now I've just trained myself to be positive and be optimistic in every situation, and that's something you can really learn to do, and it feels so good when you realize you can be positive. You can live your life not moaning about things and, like, actually taking control. Because when you do that, when you realize you can react differently, and you can see things positively, life is better, and you can be so much happier. Um, so I don't know where it came from, but it's definitely something that's inside of me and I love spreading that message. I love trying to encourage other people to live that way. Whether it's through meditation or exercise, whatever it may be, you can choose to live a healthier, happier life if you start making the right decisions, I think.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:31 You, you said there, Joe, that when you realize you can react differently. That is really powerful, mate, because that's been one of the biggest learnings for me in my journey into adulthood and as a parent is, is just that, it's when you know there's, there's, there's that space between the stressor and our response. There is a space, and in that space, we can choose what we do. You know, we, it may be hard sometimes, but we can choose, and it's like a revelation when you sort of get that and go, "Oh, I, I could react like that. I used to react like that, but now I'm gonna choose to react differently."

Joe Wicks 27:07 Definitely. You know, I think it's amazing when you realize, like you said about when your kids are stressing you out, like there's a moment where you can fight or fly or react or you can actually have a moment to breathe. And when you start to become more patient and, and train that muscle, you actually can really react so well. 'Cause, 'cause my default reaction as a, as a kid, w- well, you know, as, as a child, my mum and dad would shout and scream and shout and slam doors. I really, in my head, I'd kind of do slam doors and I do scream and shout. I'm like, I'm doing that when Indy and Marley are screaming at me. But I've processed that and kind of learned to take a breath, and then I can really react differently, so I don't need to shout and scream. But you are a product of your childhood. You know, you are what you, what you've been exposed to. So although in my head I'm screaming, I c- I've learned to really stay calm, not all the time, but as many times as I can. And it's just that thing, isn't it? It's powerful. When you realize you can ac- react differently to stress, you can actually live a much more chilled life and be way happier for it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:03 Yeah. No, for sure. You mentioned, Joe, how your childhood has, like all of us, our childhood influences the people we end up becoming. And you've sort of, you've mentioned already in this conversation that your dad's, uh, struggle with addiction at various parts of his life. I'm wondering, what is the biggest lesson do you feel that your dad has taught you?

Joe Wicks 28:30 I think, I think just the fact that addiction is, is such a complex situation. You know, as you're, when you're a kid, you don't really know what's going on or what's caused it. But, you know, I understand my dad now. I know more about his childhood. I know that, you know, his old man left him and went off and had another family in Canada. And so all these things would've affected him, and he got into drugs quite young, you know? And I really, I really kind of think that that experience, seeing how destructive drugs were for my dad and my family, really steered me clear of it. You know, when my friends were down the park smoking cigarettes and maybe getting, getting some weed, I would be going to play football or I'd be going down, um, you know, going f- going to do something active and physical and, and, and playing or whatever. So I made some decisions at an early age because I was so frightened. I personally, I was actually frightened that if I did it, I would love it, and I'd do harder drugs and I'd be an alcoholic and a drug addict. So it was quite a fearful thing, I think. You know, because my dad was clean, then he was in rehab, then he was out, then he'd relapse. It was so up and down, and it was so upsetting that I didn't want to go down that path. So I think, you know, just my dad's experience with drugs really shaped me as an adult and, and I'm proud of that, and I don't look back and I... This is the thing about a lot of people with addiction in the family are quite ashamed of it. They don't want to talk about their alcoholic mum or their drug addict father. But, you know, it's okay to talk about it. It's part of your story and you shouldn't be ashamed of your past. Like my relationship with my dad's great today, um, and I love him, and he's been through a lot. And I'm actually just proud that he survived heroin addiction. It's not an easy thing. A lot of his friends ended up dead. You know, they really did.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:58 Yeah. I mean, it's incredible and what you, you'd mentioned a couple of times in this conversation compassion. And I don't know if you know the work of Gabor Maté or not.

Joe Wicks 30:08 Well, did you have him on your podcast? He's amazing. That, that really opened up my heart a little bit as well because it's that thing of I was an angry teenager. I didn't want to accept my dad's addiction and I was, I was angry, but then I now look at addiction differently. Like one of the things he says is the, um, the antidote to addiction is connection and like what a beautiful thought, you know. Rather than get angry and throw your dad out the house and say, "I don't love you. I can't be around you. You know, go off on your own." By bringing your dad closer and giving him a hug and saying, "I love you," it's all, you know, we're all good. That's connection. That's what he needs. So yeah, it's little things like that, tiny phrases, podcasts I've listened to, um, have opened up my heart. Also, some- I've done some really deep meditations on gratitude and, and that's powerful. Like, when you, when you start to actually think positively about things, you realize that life's just all these experiences, and you've gotta be grateful for everything, you know? And, and-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:57 Yeah

Joe Wicks 30:58 ... you can learn from it. But yeah, I love Gabor Maté.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:01 Yeah. No, I, I, I, I, I mean, I love what you just said, Joe, and you're right. The, these little phrases can just change our perspective in an instant. You suddenly get something that's been sitting with you for years, and you just look at it in a slightly different way. I know one phrase which has changed my life over the past year or two is something that Peter Crone said to me on one of my podcasts. He... It's basically this idea that if you were that person, you'd be doing exactly the same as them. And I would sit with that, Joe. I would just sit in my bed, lie in bed at night thinking about it, if you were that person. And I, I think about it a lot, because it's basically saying that if you were that other person with their upbringing, with, uh, their family structure, with their beliefs, with their schooling, with what they think is normal in the world, you'd have the same opinion as them. And it's how I often approach now any toxicity on social media or any, any sort of, um, [lips smack] any sort of pushback or really charged comments, which I don't really get much of, to be fair, anymore, but I look at it, like you, with a place of compassion and go, "Oh, you know, obviously that's their worldview. They see it that way. They've interpreted this in that way." So that's certainly a phrase for me that's changed things. And would you say that phrase from Gabor has changed the way you interact with your dad?

Joe Wicks 32:21 Definitely. It was just a beautiful thought that, you know, we often, like... 'Cause addiction's so painful, and when someone you love is t- is taking drugs or whatever it is, gambling or drinking, it's painful, right? And you just wanna shut the door in their face and you wanna push them away, but that's disconnection. And addicts are, addicts, especially drug addicts, they're, they're taking drugs to, to take away some kind of pain or trauma that they may have experienced. So for me to think, when my dad's having his, you know, lows, 'cause he ha- he suffers with depression, he has his ups and downs, I text him, I ring him, or I pull him towards me, I connect with him to get him through it. I, I say, "Come over and see Indie and Marley," you know? And that's something that I may not have done when I was a teenager. I couldn't, I didn't have it in me to do that as a teenager. But now as an adult, I see the signs, and I know that if I haven't spoke to him for a few days, I know he's having a rough time, and then he might be starting to think about maybe not going to NA meetings and dropping out of the, uh, the fellowship and stuff. So, you know, he needs his, he needs his meetings, and, and he needs his connection to his children and his family. So yeah, it, it is a lovely quote, and, and I really think about it a lot, and I try and talk-- I try and spread that one to anyone that's going through that if... 'Cause I th- I think people are ashamed of having, like, parents with addiction, but you shouldn't be. You know, you should be able to talk about it and, and be open with it. There's loads of people in this world with parents with some form of addiction. You're not on your own.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:37 Yeah. I think hearing you talk about it is gonna be so powerful, Joe, for so many people, 'cause I think you're right. People don't feel they can talk about it. They are ashamed. They, they lock it down, and it's that stuff that you lock down inside that manifests in so many other behaviors and stress and anxiety, whereas, you know, being open and honest, and I appreciate some people it can be challenging, but it's so important, and I, I really, you know, I, I sort of pay homage to you for actually talking about it, 'cause I think you then pave the

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:08 way for people who look up to you to also talk about it in their own lives. I mean, that's your dad, what he's taught you. What do you feel that your mum has taught you?

Joe Wicks 34:16 My mum is one of the most wonderful, like, loving, compassionate people. I think about this a lot, um, where does my love and nurturing kind of nature come from, and my giving. I love giving. I love helping and, and being there for people. And I said my mum left school at 15, so she was on benefits, you know, my, pretty much my, right up until my teenage years, you know, on social, and we, we didn't have a lot of dough or anything. But then once, when, once we got into high school, something in her said, "I wanna go and do s- I wanna be more. I don't wanna be on benefits for my life." So she went to, um, she went to a, a, a young li- a, a women's, um, college to get some education, and then went on to do a foundation degree at Nescot College in, in Epsom. And, you know, like, she ca- she became a social worker. So of all the things she could've done, she could've gone on being an accountant, or she could've done, you know, bookkeeping, or, I don't know, anything in any industry. But she chose to be a social worker and go and help the people that she, that she wants to help, people that have been through similar stuff to her, you know, childhood trauma, getting kicked out of home, um, you know, all kinds of things, you know. So, and that really highlights what I think where my love comes from, where, like, my ability to wanna help people, you know. It's there. Like, it's there. It's in... And, and she, she showed me that. And one thing I'll say about my childhood is that my mum and dad always said, and my mum used to say it all the time, "Joe, I love you. Whatever you wanna be, whether you're a dustman or a doctor, I'll love you just the same." And that's such an important message when you're a kid, because I didn't have any pressure to be anything or anyone. I just was gonna be who I wanted to be, and that was a lovely message. And I keep, I, I, I say it to Indie now. I was like, "Whatever you wanna be, darling, when you're older, I'm gonna be so proud of you, as long as you're happy." And that's really what my mum and dad have said to me from a very young age, even when I was, like, a seven, eight-year-old boy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:59 Yeah. Powerful. So Joe, that's something your parents did for you that you now make sure you are doing for your kids. Is there anything that I guess happened in your childhood that you think, "Actually, you know what? My parents were doing their best, but actually I wanna do things differently with my kids"?

Joe Wicks 36:15 One of the best things happened the other day. I picked Indie up from nursery, and her nursery, she, teacher said that she's just so, she said, "She's just so loving and kind." Like, Indie, said a little boy started nursery, and Indie was holding his hand and making sure he was safe, and she says, "I love you," and, you know, she's really affectionate. And that love and that affection comes from me and Rosie. So it is amazing how much they become, you know, they're their own person from the start, but your nurture and how you take care and how you show them love and patience really spreads and really... So by being like that with Indie, I know that, and also by, like, loving Rosie, really loving and being, like, patient and- And kind of, um, you know, really respectful of Rosie means that Indie will expect that from her husband when she's older, and it will have a knock-on effect to her kids. And so I am always trying my hardest to be a, um, a nice, like, polite and respectful and also patient parent because I was shouted at. You know, like I said, doors were slammed. They- we lived in council houses with, like, really thin doors, and there'd always be holes in the doors, and I never knew what it was, but it's 'cause my dad would punch through the door when they were arguing and stuff. So there's all these things that f- without a doubt, you know, I, I know that I'm never gonna do that. I'm never gonna have a door in my house with holes in it or slam a door when an In- because I don't want to b- I don't want her to be frightened or upset or scared by, you know, that being around her. So yeah, without a doubt, all of these childhood experiences have affected and shaped my, my, my, my opinion of, of parenthood and what I wanna be with, with Indie and Marley.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:44 You're also very close to your brother, and I'm wondering what lessons has your brother taught you that play out in your everyday life?

Joe Wicks 37:52 So I've got two brothers. I've got an older one called Nikki, who is a year older than me, and I've got a 10-year-old brother called George, who is... We're all from the same mom and dad. Um, and so there's a big gap. And when George came along, I was 10, and he was, he was brand new, and I loved him. I, I, I had him in my... He slept in my bed for years. I taught him how to ride. Like, he was like my best friend, and I just wanted to teach him everything. Um, and we had such a great relationship. So I, you know, I was changing nappies at 10 years old, and I was feeding him and doing bath time. So I, I definitely think I got to be responsible and h- how to look after a baby from, through George. And then with my older brother, Nikki, like, he's taught me-- He's, he's so ambitious. He works with me, so he, he kinda does all my content. Um, he helps with my decisions, and he's, he's got such a great strategy, such a great vision for, um, for me in how, how, how we do things and how we help people. And so, he- I s- I talk about the MBE. I was like, "It's really both of ours," 'cause he was there through every single PE with Joe work, in my ear, you know, doing the shout-outs. So I think Nikki's taught me how to be patient and how to be, um, how to, to, to think about other people's feelings. We're like... We have 15 members of staff, and so, you know, through Nikki and through seeing him interact with other people, it's lear- it's taught me to be more, um, more patient and more, um, open to other people's ideas. You know, it's not just about me. Like, it's a team of people. We all have ideas, and Nikki's taught me that, to be more collaborative, I think.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:14 Yeah. I imagine that must have been a... There must be a, a, a, a sort of crux point when you're growing. You're doing your Instagram yourself. You're probably editing everything, putting it all online yourself, and then suddenly it probably gets to some point where it's too big to manage by yourself, and then there's people trying to help you and your brand, which is actually you. So it, it must be this kind of weird conflict of actually people are trying to help you in your business, but the name is Joe Wicks, so it's kind of you, but they're trying to help you be more you or get more of you out to the world. I don't know. Is it, is it, is it kind of a weird sort of conflict at times?

Joe Wicks 39:51 Well, you might think that I've got th- this massive social media team, but when I talk about the 15 staff, they're like, um, Body Coach support heroes. So they're like customer service. They look after clients on the plan. Um, and, and they're amazing. You know, the business wouldn't be what it is without them. They really help communicate and encourage the clients to stick to the plan. In terms of the social media, it's me, my brother Nikki, and my cousin Luca, so it's family. Literally, it's like family. And then my best friend Dom does all my editing and uploads my videos. So there's only four of us. People think there's this massive team, but really it was just me in the start, then Nikki came and worked for me, then my little cousin Luca, um, and then my friend Dom. And, and together, you know, I shoot the f- I actually shoot all the content on my own. So I have a camera at home. I do the videos. I just upload it to WeTransfer, and then Dom will edit it and put it online. Um, and Nikki will help with, um, yeah, with str- strategy around, like, we've got an idea for a video, or let's do this and visit this school and, um, things like that. So it's a teamwork. And then Luca, uh, is kind of social media community manager because, you know, I get so many DMs, and there's so many questions and queries. But you'd be amazed at just how much of it is me. You know, I send voice notes to people. I, I spend three or four hours a day doing voice notes to reply to people 'cause you can't replace that. You can't be me. You can sound like me, and you can do a tweet maybe and say, you know, "It's The Body Coach team," but when someone gets a voice note back from me, that means so much to them, and it's so important that I stay connected to my audience for my own personal mental health and also my motivation. It really motivates me when I read DMs and I read the feedback from people.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:22 Yeah. I mean, it's, it, it's very touching to hear that, Joe, that you're still doing that, and I don't know how many messages [laughs] you must get a day. Um, you mentioned you spend, or you try and spend three or four hours a day doing that. How has having kids affected your relationship with social media? Because I'm guessing the game you could play with social media must have been very different when it was just you or just you and Rosie compared to when it's now with the children as well. So, you know, how, what does that look like now, now that you've got two young children?

Joe Wicks 41:56 Well, I watched The Social Dilemma on Netflix, and it completely ruined me. Like, it threw me. It rattled me. It, it upset me to realize how addicted I am and my usage, you know, 'cause I put out a lot of content, and I reply to a lot of people, but I also consume a lot of nonsense, and I scroll, and I, and I think, "Why do I do it?" And so I've put in some new boundaries into my life. Um, like I don't take the phone to the be- I don't take my phone to my bedroom anymore at night. I leave it downstairs. That has changed my life. I'm sleeping so much more and so much better for it. I also betw- I've really tried this probably, like, five or six days a week. Between the hours of 5:00 PM and 7:30, like, when we do dinner and bath and, and, and bedtime, I don't have my phone on me because I, I do get distracted. I do pick it up, and I check a little thing here and there. So it's kinda like I'm clawing back the hours of my addiction to my device, right? I'm taking some back. And they all add up, and it does feel nice just to have that two-and-a-half-hour slot where I'm not on my phone. And don't get me wrong, I'm run- at 7:30, when they're in bed, I'm running to my phone, and I'm going through it, and I'm catching up on everything. But it's having those blocks of time that, you know, it's nice to just not be on your phone and be really present. But in terms of the sharing of the children, I went through this phase. So I had a wean- I had a weaning book, my Wean in 15 book. I set up a separate account, and I, I shared so much in the build-up to that book. You know, videos of the babies when they're eating, and recipes and videos, and it's so cute. But I almost got to a point where I just felt like I shared so much, and now I've kind of, I don't wanna have the phone in their face at every single mealtime. So I'm definitely sharing less content. I'm, I'm making less recipes. I'm not sharing as many weaning recipes, and that, it kind of, my s- you know, my social media suffers, if you like, but I just don't wanna be there every night with a phone in their face. I wanna have them time to just relax and not think that Daddy's filming them all the time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:38 Yeah, for sure. Joe, about a year and a half ago, I think I, I heard you say somewhere that you, you don't think meditation is for you. You know? You, you sort of, it's not your thing, or something like that. But then I know, and I've heard your chat with Russell, and it was brilliant. It w- it was such a good listen. And he mentioned on that chat, he didn't he, that he thought meditation was gonna help you. Was that the trigger for you to try again, and what's happened since then?

Joe Wicks 44:07 So I tried, like, the Headspace app and the Calm app a couple of years back. You know, and it's, like, the seven-day challenge or whatever. And I, I did about 10 minutes of it and I, I rang up my friend and said, "Look, I'm mindful that I cannot be mindful, and I'm fine with it."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:19 [laughs]

Joe Wicks 44:19 "I wanna be busy. I like being busy. I'm good." And then I did Russell Brand's podcast, Underneath the Skin, and he said to me, "Joe, you sound like a man, your brain sounds like a brain that needs meditation." And he was like, "Look, I'm gonna send you a link. Go and give it a go." It was a 20-minute guided meditation on YouTube, completely free. I sat there and I did it, and I just felt so good. Like, I've never connected with my breath. I've, I've done yoga before, but I've always struggled with the, the breathing and that kind of stuff. And it opened something up in my mind. It opened up this moment of space and, like, gratitude. And I said I did a, an amazing, this is a true story, I did an amazing, um, meditation on gratitude. And it said, "Think of something you're really grateful for." And all I could think about was my dad being alive. And I was thinking, "Why am I thinking that? Where's that thought come from?" And I burst into tears because I realized how grateful I was that he didn't die, or he didn't inject himself with heroin one day in his flat and die. And that was really powerful. And I, I had this really wonderful feeling. I've never had that thought. I've always just thought he was a victim. But I had this, I kept thinking, "You're a survivor. I'm proud of you. Like, I'm so grateful you've survived this." I got off the f- got off the meditation, like, got, got out of the 20-minute meditation. I rang him up and I told him that, and I told him how proud I was of him. And, like, what a weird thing to happen. I've never, that's never crossed my mind. But meditation brought me that calmness and that little bit of space in my head to think, you know, you can say this to your dad right now and you can mean it, and it could be wonderful. And it was just the most lovely conversation, and he was so happy that I reached out. And he's been trying to get me to meditate for years, my old man, 'cause he's very much into yoga and meditation. So yeah, I've gotta thank Russell Brand, the comedian and the great, um, entrepreneur [laughs] Russell Brand.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:03 And how are you meditating these days?

Joe Wicks 46:05 So I've got the Headspace app, 'cause I interviewed Andy Puddicombe for my, um, podcast series.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:10 Yeah.

Joe Wicks 46:10 He's the founder of Headspace. And I've got the app, and I, I'm, I'm really into the sleep cast. So before bed sometimes I'll listen to a sleep cast, um, and then I'll, um, do a guided meditation in the morning sometimes. I usually do sort of 15 minutes about three or four days a week, so I'm not seven days a week, but that's enough for me. On the days I do it, I feel good, I feel calm. Um, and I, I really like the different sort of, you know, you can do one on gratitude, one on letting go of negativity, one on, um, dealing with stress. And I don't really have anxiety, but I do get a bit stressed over certain things. So it's amazing, and it's, for some people, it's like, "Oh, that's never for me. I can't be bothered. I can't do it." But you've gotta be patient with it. You've gotta kind of train yourself to do it, and you get better at it each time, I think.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:51 For sure. If you are doing it, when would you do it in your day? Do you have to put it in a set time? Like, for me, if I don't do it when I wake up, it rarely happens, and I'm just wondering for you, how do you fit it into your day?

Joe Wicks 47:04 I'm the same. Yeah. I like to do it in the morning. So I'll, I'll jump up, you know, I'll grab a glass of water, and I'll go upstairs. I try and do it before the kids are awake. Um, but it, it's good to actually learn to do it with other noises going on as well. But I've got these good head- you know, I stick on my, um, my sort of sound can- noise-canceling headphones and I'll, I'll sit there on a cushion. Sometimes I do it laying down. I quite enjoy it laying down. And yeah, I just try and do it maybe, like, I'll do, like, my stretching and my meditation. So I bolt it onto another habit. So I need to do my daily stretching 'cause my hip's in bits. So I do a bit of stretching, bit of meditation, and that's it done. But you're right, if I don't do it, I, and I go up to the gym and straight, straight to exercise, or I go out to work, I just don't do it in the evening. I just can't seem to find the time, 'cause I, I'd rather be with the kids. I'd rather be doing something else. So I, I really think morning is a good time to meditate.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:51 Yeah. It's interesting what you said about learning to do it with other people around, because I think when I first started, and I've had this sort of, I wouldn't say battle, but you know, I've, I've often done meditation over various periods over the last years because I know of the, all the benefits. I know in my logical mind there are benefits to doing this. I should do it. But, you know, I'd fall off the wagon again, and I wouldn't do it for a few weeks. And I think in the last year, my relationship to meditation has really, really changed. So being able to do it when the kids are around, 'cause I, you know, I try and get up before them, and I, you know, tiptoe down the stairs, and I'm in the living room, and I'm like, no, no, no, I wanna have my, my time to do my meditation or have a little workout before they wake up. But my daughter often will, will hear, or my son will, will hear that Daddy's up, and they'll creep down. And so, you know, my daughter once came and said, "Oh, Daddy, you meditate. Can I meditate with you?" And I thought, "Yeah, why not? Why can't she just meditate with me?" So actually, I think at the time I was using Calm, and so I think we just had it on and she sat with me, and I did my meditation and she did hers. And I thought, "Well, this is pretty cool, this," and I'm kinda modeling the behavior that hopefully my kids will start doing. So it's interesting, 'cause before it would stress me out. I'd be like, "No, no, I want, I want the time to myself 'cause I wanna be able to do my meditation and sort my head out." Uh, so that was really great. But also what's changed in me, and I'm interest- I'd be interested to see if we ever revisit this in, in a few years, how it's gone for you. But I used to use apps. And I think for a few months now, I now don't use anything. But it took me a while, Joe, to get here, and I'm at this point now where I actually don't want an app or a voice in my head anymore. Now, that may change, but at the moment, I can meditate in silence, and I'm thinking, "Oh, wow, this is what they always talk about." And maybe I needed the app to get me to that next stage. And I don't know how long this will last for, but I kinda feel that it's a journey, right? Meditation. I don't think we just sort of... I think a lot of people wanna try it a couple of times, go, "Oh, you know, it's not my thing." It's kind of like, well, if we, if we, if you had a monkey mind your entire life, we're not gonna suddenly be able to just sit and listen [laughs] to a 10-minute meditation. It's like if someone said you gotta run a marathon or, I don't know, do a 24-hour, uh, Children in Need challenge, right? It's, well, you're gonna have to do something to prepare yourself in order to be able to do that. Do you know what I mean?

Joe Wicks 50:16 I'd love to get to that point where I don't need a head- you know, a Headspace app or a guided meditation because I, I don't, sometimes I don't want the device near me. I don't want headphones on me. I don't want my Apple Watch biz- buzzing. I don't want the tech. But it is a- an amazing way. It's got me into meditation, so I love it. I really do love my Headspace app. But I do would love to get to that point where I can just talk to myself and find my own mantra and my own breath and, and do it. That, that must be amazing because you could then be on a beach somewhere, or you could be in a park or in your living room and just do it. You don't need anything, and I think that's, that's probably what meditation is about. It's not really about listening to other people's voices. But I do find that some of the wording they use does bring out nice thoughts, and it makes me feel a bit more calm, and it's, it's like a guided route to, um, to calmness as opposed to, like, trying to work yourself up and get there yourself. But no, I'll give it a go. I should try it now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:05 Yeah, mate, see, look, it took me a few years to get to that point, so I'm not saying... And again, I don't wanna sort of preach as if I have reached nirvana, and I've sort of got this sorted. I'm on a journey. I'm trying to learn about myself every day. I'm trying to be a better dad, be a better husband, be a better human being, right? That's what drives me. But I know on the days I meditate, I'm a better dad, end of story. You know, I don't react as much. You know, I can... That space between stimulus and response becomes bigger on the days I meditate. On the days I don't have time, or I tell myself I don't have time, that space sort of, uh, you know, it just contracts, and it's, like, more reactive. Is that... Have you felt changes like that after meditating?

Joe Wicks 51:47 Yeah. On the days I meditate, I'm more productive, and I get more done. But I just feel less stressed. Like, if there's loads of things going on, and, like, you look at your diary, and I've got all these appointments, 'cause sometimes things just jump in there. I'm like, "Who put that in there? What's that?" And I, I think, "I just don't wanna do th- too many things today," then it can get to me. But when I've meditated, I just sort of breathe it all. It kinda, like, just comes a lot easier, and I just sort of think, think, "That's gonna be fine. You know, that's only another half hour" or, "You've only got two appointments." It's not like... I just don't let the stress get to me as much, and it's... Stress is such a harsh thing 'cause it puts you in such a bad mood and can really make you feel bad and drain your energy. And so the, the, the idea is to just feel as less stress as possible, and there are ways around it. And meditation, without a doubt, there's no way on Earth meditation cannot be a benefit to every single human brain because we are like a f- we're like a microprocessor, aren't we? We're, we're processing so much data, and I think meditation is that, like, it's almost r- r- slowing that process down and giving you a bit more, you know, bit more, um, data in there, a bit more, like, space in your, in your hard drive. And then you can go out to the da- towards the day and enjoy it a bit more.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:50 Joe, I like you am passionate about kids and children's health, and seeing what you've done over the past years when you've gone on the road. You've gone into schools. You've got people moving and smiling and singing and whatever else you've done. I'm really interested as to what have you learnt along that way? You know, have you learnt things from the kids? Have you adapted your approach because of what you've seen in the schools?

Joe Wicks 53:14 I, I really do love working with children. When I, when I go into a school and I visit a school in a, you know, any area, it could be a really affluent area, it could be a really deprived area, the, the same response is they're so engaged. They're so excited to move their bodies, and they're so excited to exercise. And so I do think my energy really is going into younger children. I think it's harder at teenage and secondary school because they're almost, their habits are formed, and it's, they're a bit more resistant. Whereas the younger children, they're much more up for it, you know? They really wanna train. They really wanna have fun. And I've learnt that children are resilient. You know, they're really, you know, they, they really kind of use exercise, I think, as a great way of letting out that stress and venting. And if they've got a rough, you know, tough upbringings at home and rough backgrounds or wherever they may live, it is a great way of letting them feel safe and feel, um, kind of connected through health and fitness. I think it's an amazing way of bringing, bringing kids out of their shell, if you like, giving them confidence. There's so many benefits to it, but it really is one... I've, I've had success with adults and cookbooks, but for me now, I just love working with schoolkids. I love knowing that young kids are, like, going into their living room and choosing a YouTube workout and doing it on their own. Now, that's, for me, is the ultimate win because it's like they're doing it off their own back. And I get a lot of messages from parents that say that, "My, my kid went upstairs with my laptop, and I could hear banging, and I thought they were rowing, and they were doing one of your HIIT workouts. They were doing mountain climbers or running on the spot." And that's such a lovely message because it's really what I'm trying to achieve. It's, like, independent, um, desire to wanna exercise for their own mental health.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:45 Yeah. No, wonderful. Joe, if someone's listening to this right now, this conversation, or they're watching it on YouTube, and they're thinking, "Joe, I get it. I, I've heard what you've got to say. I get it that it's gonna help me feel better. It's gonna have benefits for my mental health. But, you know, Joe, exercise is not for me. I was teased as a kid. You know, I don't like going to gyms because I'm scared of what people are gonna say. I'm not sure if I'm doing them the right way. I just don't think it's for me," what would you say to them?

Joe Wicks 55:20 Well, I'd say firstly, you know, you're not alone. There's lots of people, there's millions of people that really find exercise difficult. Um, it's in my DNA. I love it. From a kid I've always loved it. But some kids love music, and they became amazing guitarists and didn't get, you know, in, didn't get engaged in PE or didn't have a great experience with, um, with bullying or with school teachers or whatever it may be. So don't ever feel like it's too late. You can find something that you love, and it doesn't have to be a Body Coach HIIT workout, doing burpees, raising your heart rate and feeling really uncomfortable. You may be someone who, you know, loves going for five-mile walks with your dog. Like, that is exercise, and that is your mental health, and that is you doing what you love. So don't feel a pressure to, um, conform to any type of fitness. You don't need a Peloton bike. You don't need a, um, you know, expensive personal trainer. There's always something, and I think really use tech, you know? Turn to YouTube and see how many amazing, like, trainers there are i- in terms of meditation, yoga, you know, Pilates, HIIT, um, body weight stuff. Like, there's so many great trainers, and I, I almost feel like there's something for everyone on YouTube, and it's free. So maybe give that a go. Like, spend a week. Say, right, today I'm gonna do a 20-minute barre class. Tomorrow I'm gonna do a, um, Pilates workout or a yoga workout. And by the end of that week, you're gonna go, "I don't like any of Joe's workouts, but I love this yoga teacher from LA. I'm gonna do that twice a week." So there's something there. It's just about trying it out and, and don't feel like it has to be throwing heavy weights around and doing star jumps and mountain climbers, because it may not be for you. But you can still have a strong body. You can still have a, a supple, mobile body and, and still get the mental health benefits from that type of exercise.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:02 Yeah. No, love it. Great advice for people. Joe, um, what's next for you? Because I heard you say in an interview that after PE with Joe, which if I've not said congratulations yet in this conversation, I'm gonna say it now, because what you achieved and what you created during lockdown to be the PE teacher to the UK, but also frankly a lot of the world, was incredible. I know you've been in the Guinness Book of Records because of that in terms of how many people were on your live stream. But I've heard you say that actually you don't think you'll ever do anything that's that impactful as what you did then. Yet I'm chatting to you four or five days after you stayed up for 24 hours for Children in Need, raising over two million quid. And I'm thinking, well, I'm not saying that's surpassed what you did. I don't know which one [laughs] is more impactful. I think they're both amazingly impactful. But it just seems as though you go from strength to strength, and the impact you're having goes, ju- just increases all the time. So, um, I guess, I don't know what's going on in your head, but it kind of strikes me as though when you think you've reached your max, there's something on the other side of that. So how do you deal with that? And then also, what do you think is next, and what drives you to keep going?

Joe Wicks 58:26 I do remember saying that in an interview. I was like, you know, lockdown and, and being there for 80 million views, you know, was, it was so many families and kids. Being there during that time was, like, such an important moment. I don't know if there, there's ever gonna be any moment in time where I'm needed and, and, and kind of, you know, utilized so much as a human being, like, in that moment in time. But then I'd done the 24-hour challenge, and-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:49 [laughs]

Joe Wicks 58:50 ... when I think about the money we raised, like, that will impact lives. That, that 2.5 million pounds will help children's lives. So I actually, I've got this new kind of thing in my head that maybe I could do more fundraisers, because I never imagined we were gonna raise 2.5 million pounds. But imagine if I did another event next year and we raised five million pounds. Like, imagine what that would do. So maybe that mindset of the impact was so big, maybe there's something ahead of me in the future that's so big, and I could spend years raising millions of pounds for c- for charities that are, you know, close to my heart. Who knows? I've got no crazy 24-hour challenges lined up, but you know, I could convince myself again. If BBC Children in Need ask me to come back next year, I just may have to do something a bit more intense, 'cause people won't wanna donate again to the same thing. It might have to be more extreme, um, and even more sort of bold and daring.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:36 Oh, love it. Absolutely love it. Joe, look, you are one of the most inspiring people out there. What you have achieved is incredible. You go from strength to strength. Uh, PE, workouts during lockdown, you know, raising two and a half million quid for Children in Need, you know, is just... You know, the MBE you've just been awarded. It really is incredible to watch. And I love more than anything that you were the Body Coach when you were 11 years old, getting people ready in PE, getting them motivated. Come on, let's get out there. Let's get moving. Uh, for me, that's the funnest part of your entire story, to hear that you are doing what you've always, you know, what you've always meant to do, what you're, what you're here to do. Um, I always finish off the podcast, Joe, with some tips for people, because I wanna inspire people through these conversations, but I want people to take action. I don't just want them to feel inspired and go, "Oh, that was great," you know, "I love all that," and then go back to their everyday lives. I want them to take that inspiration and turn it into something that they can bring into their life. That's why it's called Feel Better Live More. When you feel better in yourself, you get more out of life. And Joe, I wonder, in all your years of training people in person, online, everything that you've done, what are some of your top tips for people that they can think about at the end of our conversation today?

Joe Wicks 1:00:58 Lovely. Thank you so much for that, you know, lovely, um, outro almost. Um, I've really enjoyed our chat as well. It's been so nice. And we haven't met in person, but I really hope we get to, you know, meet and have lunch one day. Um, so what have I learned from people? Um, I think more than ever I've learned the importance of mental health, the importance of taking care of yourself. Like, you live in your own mind, you know? No one else around is gonna take care of your mental health and your mindset. Like, it really is about you doing things every day to help you, you know, feel positive, feel optimistic, especially now during the lockdown, the COVID, what's gone on, what, what we've been experiencing. You have to take care of yourself. And primarily, that is gonna come through four things, which is, you know, sleep. So focus on getting a good night's sleep. Focus on, you know, leaving your phone outside your bedroom, maybe doing some meditation if you can, and, you know, really just switching off a little bit earlier. That's a really important one. Uh, number two is fitness. It doesn't matter if you can't do really high intensity. If you've got bad knees or you're, you've got injuries of some sort, you know, find something that you can do and, and do it consistently. Even if it's 10 minutes a day, it's better than nothing. Number three is nutrition, you know, food. Can you, like, stop buying takeaway food and ready meals and just cook three meals a day at home, or, you know, even one or two meals a day at home? Uh, that's gonna help you have energy. It's gonna help you feel confident and, and get leaner and all the other things that come with it. And then the final thing, I think, for a happy life is to have goals. You know, shared goals of your partners or your kids, um, career goals and, and personal goals. Like, if you don't have anything in the diary, anything in the, in the calendar ahead of you, what we work- it's like you're just plodding along through life in cruise control. I think it's nice to set yourself a crazy goal, like I'm gonna run a marathon, or I'm gonna climb Kilimanjaro. You know, something, whatever it may be. Or I'm gonna go traveling for a month and visit Costa Rica and go and spend time with the animals that I love. Like, all these things that you dream about, it's gonna give your life, like, color and ambition and motivation. And then if you live by those four principles, I do think you can, like you said, live, live happier. Feel better, live more is a lovely, lovely phrase. And so that's my top tips. I mean, are they tips? I don't know if that's really tips, but that's my principles of life, I suppose.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:11 Yeah. No, I love them. I think people are gonna love them. Joe, you're a busy guy. I appreciate you giving me nine minutes of your time today. Good luck with everything you're doing. I also hope we get to meet in person and do lunch together one day. I'm sure that day won't be very long coming. So yeah, have a good one, Joe.

Joe Wicks 1:03:26 I'd love that. Well, look, thank you for your time and, um, keep doing your thing, keep spreading the positive message, and lots of love to you and all your listeners.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:32 [upbeat music] Really hope you enjoyed that conversation. Please do think about one thing that you can take and apply into your life. Inspiration is not enough. You need to take action. If you did enjoy that, please do press Subscribe, hit that notification bell, and why not check out this conversation that I've picked out that acts as the perfect follow-up?