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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

Meditation Can Change Every Part of Your Life | Henry Shukman

This episode is brought to you by: AG1: Get FREE AG1 Flavour Sampler, AGZ Sampler, Vitamin D3+K2 and Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription (worth $87, US only) https://bit.ly/43FwxQl THE WAY APP: Get 30 FREE days and begin your journey towards peace, calm and wellbeing. https://thewayapp.com/livemore Why do we spend so much of our lives searching for meaning, happiness and a sense of purpose, when what we’re looking for might already be within us? In this episode, I’m joined by Zen Master, author and meditation teacher Henry Shukman to explore how meditation can change the way we understand ourselves, find meaning and experience the world around us. Henry is the co-founder of The Way meditation app, and this is his third appearance on the podcast. But this time, our conversation takes us somewhere new. I share a deeply affecting experience I had at a retreat earlier this year, when the usual boundary between myself and the world around me seemed to dissolve. It was an experience unlike anything I’d felt before, and I wanted to understand what had happened. Henry helps me make sense of it, introducing the idea of non-dual awakening and exploring what it means to experience life beyond our usual sense of separation. We also discuss why so many of us tie our worth to achievement and productivity, and how meditation can help us discover a different way of living, one that doesn’t depend on constantly proving ourselves. Henry explains why we often mistake our conditioned pace for our natural one, how slowing down can reconnect us with the extraordinary in the ordinary, and why meaning and happiness may not be found where we’ve been looking for them. Henry answers some of your most-asked questions about meditation, including how to build a consistent practice, find time to meditate around work and family life, and carry greater awareness into the rest of your day. We also explore the relationship between meditation, shame, addiction and cravings, why creating space between an urge and an action can make a difference, and how learning not to react can transform our relationships. At the heart of the conversation is a simple but profound idea: we may not need to achieve more, acquire more or become someone different to find a deeper sense of meaning. Sometimes, the first step is simply to become still enough to recognise what is already here. Whether you’re new to meditation or have been practising for years, this conversation offers a fresh perspective on how meditation can reach far beyond feeling calm, changing how we relate to ourselves, the people we love and the life we’re already living. 🌱 Want to feel better and live more? Subscribe for new conversations that could change how you think about your health and your life. ________________________________________ Episode Chapters 00:00 Introduction 00:03 Meditation, Meaning and Purpose 06:35 Finding Meaning Within 12:21 Busyness and Modern Life 20:05 How to Slow Down and Be Still 23:31 Finding Peace in Stillness 26:51 Non-Dual Awakening: Rangan’s Experience 31:57 AD BREAK 31:57 How Meditation Helps Us Feel Connected 43:04 What Happens After Awakening? 51:50 What Is Spiritual Awakening? 57:27 AD BREAK 57:27 How to Start Meditating 01:01:01 Why Seeking More Won’t Make You Happy 01:04:31 What Does a Happy Life Look Like? 01:10:49 The Journey of Meditation 01:12:20 How to Find Time to Meditate 01:15:02 Parenting and Self-Care 01:18:26 Addiction and Shame 01:28:02 Love and Connection 01:31:43 How to Bring Meditation Into Daily Life 01:37:05 How to Stop Reacting in Relationships 01:43:30 Final Thoughts on Meditation Connect with Henry: https://henryshukman.com/ https://www.instagram.com/henryshukman https://www.tiktok.com/@henry.shukman https://www.youtube.com/@ShukmanHenry Henry’s books: Original Love: The Four Inns on the Path of Awakening US https://amzn.to/49bQUug UK https://amzn.to/4oyCOYp #feelbetterlivemore #feelbetterlivemorepodcast The Thrive Tour: Transform Your Health and Happiness, a live show: Book Your Tickets https://drchatterjee.com/live ----- Follow Dr Chatterjee at: Website: https://drchatterjee.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drchatterjee Twitter: https://twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Newsletter: https://drchatterjee.com/subscription DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostHenry Shukmanguest
Oct 21, 20261h 51mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:03

    Introduction

    1. RC

      Many people these days, Henry, feel

  2. 0:03 – 6:35

    Meditation, Meaning and Purpose

    1. RC

      lost and lacking in purpose. How do you see meditation as a practice that can help people find meaning?

    2. HS

      Yeah. It's a great question. Here's my initial take on that. It's like the first thing we try to do with meaning is try to find it out in the world. It's out there somewhere, and actually, I don't know that that's the right place to look for it. I think it's within. And meditation is, you know, s- lots of things, and people understand it in lots of different ways, but fundamentally, it's always coming back to, to what's already here within us. I think, you know, the, the deepest meaning of our lives is within, and when we, when we connect with that, we also see it out in the world. It's like it comes from within. We find it within, and it reorients how we then live our outward lives.

    3. RC

      Mm.

    4. HS

      So that, I think that's the first thing, to, to be still with ourselves, to come home-

    5. RC

      Yeah

    6. HS

      ... to ourselves.

    7. RC

      You're saying that many of us look outside for meaning, outside for purpose, and I guess many people have bought the myth that happiness also exists on the outside. I mean, these are just terms, right?

    8. HS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    9. RC

      You know, they could... For some of us, they could be interchangeable, meaning-

    10. HS

      Yeah, yeah

    11. RC

      ... purpose, happiness, but I think the truth within all of them is that they're really not found on the outside. They're all, I guess to me, games that are played on the inside.

    12. HS

      Yes. I think that's, that's right. I've, I've heard the... [laughs] I've heard some- someone say, or I think it's a common saying maybe, is like, "Happiness is an inside job." You know, I, I think it's, it's really true. There's a... I remember there was a time that, um, the Dalai Lama came to visit Santa Fe.

    13. RC

      Mm.

    14. HS

      Um, I'd actually... I, I happened not to be there at the time, but it was actually after I moved there some 30-odd years ago, and he was, he was fascinated by skiing, you know? [laughs] He'd never done it, and he wanted to see what it was like. And there's a ski, there's a ski mountain half an hour outside Santa Fe, and he went up there. And, and after, after... I mean, he didn't actually get put on a pair of skis, but he was just watching people doing it, and afterwards, he went in... He wanted to go into the cafeteria to have a, have a hot drink.

    15. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    16. HS

      And he was sitting there, and one of the servers, you know, working in the cafeteria, she sort of nervously came up to him, um, and asked him, you know, "Your Hon-" Y- you know what they, they call you, Your Holiness.

    17. RC

      Your Holiness, yeah.

    18. HS

      You know? Um, "I know you're a very wise man. I want to know what's the meaning of life?" And, and he burst out laughing. [laughs] He said, "Oh," how he often does. Says, "The meaning of life, the meaning of life is very simple. It's to be happy. It's to be happy, but not so simple is how to be happy. Not so simple." [laughs]

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. HS

      And, um, you know, I think it's such a good reminder for all of us that when we're driven to so much by our culture to try to live up to things, outward measures-

    21. RC

      Mm

    22. HS

      ... and we're driven to say, "How do I measure up? How do I earn my place? How do I feel worthy?" Um, and there's a totally different path of non- non-accomplishment, non-achievement. It's the opposite.

    23. RC

      Yeah.

    24. HS

      That your meaning, your deepest meaning, and your deepest purpose, and your happiness are never gonna be earned. You know, that, that's... It's so radical.

    25. RC

      Mm.

    26. HS

      We, we... I mean, I, I still have that conditioning strongly, that I've gotta, I've gotta, I've gotta do my projects, do them well. They've gotta be helpful. Um, I wanna serve the best I can, and somehow my, my, my right to exist, you know... I, I can fall into this thinking. My right to exist-

    27. RC

      Mm-hmm

    28. HS

      ... you know, is earned by how well I act-

    29. RC

      Yeah

    30. HS

      ... and sort of perform. But that's, that's the wrong path for true meaning and true happiness.

  3. 6:35 – 12:21

    Finding Meaning Within

    1. HS

      mind it's a really good thing. Um, and, you know, you've done deep training in medicine, and you're, you know, very, very effective and, and beautiful skill as a healer and a, and a doctor. That's all fantastic. But there's still another path. There's still another reality about our lives that we can only find by being a kind of underachiever. It's like it's really counterintuitive, but there's a way that even while we may be... You know, s- you're called to do the kinds of, you know, sort of big things that you're doing, and it's fantastic. Others are called to do smaller things, but they're still called to do stuff. Um, but either way, the most beautiful thing of all is letting go of all of that and finding, I think it's like finding our true heart.

    2. RC

      Mm.

    3. HS

      Our true heart knows that it, it never needed to, to prove itself, and there's something about connecting with that in ourselves, for ourselves to really-

    4. RC

      Mm

    5. HS

      ... coming back to this totally natural, spontaneous, sort of innocent, open heart that we all have.

    6. RC

      Yeah.

    7. HS

      I think living with that and from that will, will be helpful just by our interactions, and, you know, not in big ways.

    8. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    9. HS

      It might be in big ways i- if, if, if, if we're, if we have a, a large reach or something like as you do. But, but everybody, you know, it's something about, uh, the human race when we come back into this sort of tender, open heart that we all have, um, I think that if that spreads, the whole human race gets this little magic sort of ripple of kindness-

    10. RC

      Mm

    11. HS

      ... and openness-

    12. RC

      Yeah

    13. HS

      ... and, you know, our compassionate nature comes forth.

    14. RC

      Yeah. I completely agree. The, the way I see it is it's to do with the energy behind what you're doing, right? So let's take this podcast for a moment. If I'm doing it in order to say something about who I am as a human being, and I judge my worth as a human on how many people have listened or not listened to an episode, I think that's very different from doing it with an open heart-

    15. HS

      Yes

    16. RC

      ... doing it because you're interested in this topic and you want to explore it and express it-

    17. HS

      Yes

    18. RC

      ... and whether people listen or not-

    19. HS

      Yeah

    20. RC

      ... it was still worth having that conversation because I did it for me.

    21. HS

      Exactly.

    22. RC

      It's, it's a su- there's like-

    23. HS

      Yeah

    24. RC

      ... it's like a subtly different flavor, isn't it?

    25. HS

      That's right. It's like, I mean, I see it as a kind of, um, gratitude for having this experience at all.

    26. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    27. HS

      That we're, we're able to sit here feasting on, on the visuals of, uh, that are appearing before our eyes, hearing the soft quiet in the room, hearing our voices, sharing. You know, just, just to be doing this, um, is already such a gift.

    28. RC

      Mm.

    29. HS

      And to feel, to be touched by that gift of being alive, you know, it's, it's available to us in every moment, and if we, if we do get it, then if we do sense that, um, it's like we, we sort of don't need anything else.

    30. RC

      Mm.

  4. 12:21 – 20:05

    Busyness and Modern Life

    1. RC

      anyone who does it differently, right?

    2. HS

      Yeah, yeah.

    3. RC

      Many people say, "Yeah-

    4. HS

      Yeah

    5. RC

      ... I listen to things double the speed-

    6. HS

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... and actually I really enjoy it, and I get more, uh, information in quickly."

    8. HS

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      I just realized I actually wanna experience it as it was. Like, I don't want it sped up.

    10. HS

      Yes.

    11. RC

      Right? [laughs]

    12. HS

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      I w- y- you know-

    14. HS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    15. RC

      ... and, and I think busyness is such an epidemic these days that any practice of solitude or silence, whether that be meditation-

    16. HS

      Yeah

    17. RC

      ... or whether it be something else-

    18. HS

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... I think has incredible hidden power, basically.

    20. HS

      Yes, exactly. And it's, it's not by... It's not on the same register as, like, the metrics of getting more done.

    21. RC

      Mm.

    22. HS

      It's not at all. It's like... [laughs] I remember, actually, there's this... I'm trying to remember. There's a really funny song called The S- The Sickest Buddhist, I think it's called.

    23. RC

      Okay.

    24. HS

      I'm The Best Buddhist, or something like that. I forget who the comedian is doing it, and he says, and there's a line in it like, "That 25-minute meditation, I killed it in 10," you know? [laughs]

    25. RC

      [laughs]

    26. HS

      You know? And it's like, it's exactly like that. Could you possibly speed up a meditation? You know, it's like, it's, it's insane. The whole point is, like, we're just joining the unfolding of the universe. We're just being still and joining what's actually happening.

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. HS

      And, you know, it's such a different mindset from, "What can I get done?"

    29. RC

      Yeah. It, it, it brings me back to that retreat, okay? So it was something like a three-day retreat that I did with you earlier on in the year. And one of the things I wrote down in my journal that I saw today, 'cause I hadn't looked at it for a while, was that I felt as if my internal momentum had changed, which is really beautiful because I think when we're in the sort of routine of daily life, that kind of internal pacemaker, as it were, runs at a certain speed, right? We don't realize it, that we're sort of being... It's like a thermostat in the house. Like, it's always bringing us back to that speed.

    30. HS

      Yeah.

  5. 20:05 – 23:31

    How to Slow Down and Be Still

    1. HS

      just watching, people watching, watching the world go by, just a moment of it, you'll... We get the flavor. We can all... All of us can get the flavor. And the question then is, when you get the flavor of slower, of coming back to a slower version of you that you've always had, that you had as a kid and you still have today, when we get that flavor, you know, how do you feel? How... When you re- when we really get it-

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm

    3. HS

      ... do we sense there's another way of being alive?

    4. RC

      Yeah.

    5. HS

      It doesn't mean I have to abandon the other one.

    6. RC

      No.

    7. HS

      It's the balance.

    8. RC

      What I've experienced myself is that if you can taste slowness in the morning, okay?

    9. HS

      Yeah.

    10. RC

      It's not just about that luxurious feeling that you have. You almost remind yourself what slowness feels like. And so this is why I personally am a fan of, uh, morning routines or rituals, just some sort of morning practice of stillness-

    11. HS

      Yeah

    12. RC

      ... because I think it just grounds you a little bit. It reminds you what it can feel like. And even if you then get caught up-

    13. HS

      Yeah

    14. RC

      ... in the busyness of the day, I think you're much more likely to slow down at some point if you've tasted it, right?

    15. HS

      Yeah, yeah.

    16. RC

      And I think unfortunately, so many of us don't feel we've got time for even five or 10 minutes of slowness or stillness-

    17. HS

      Yeah

    18. RC

      ... or meditation, and therefore we've forgotten what it feels like. We're just used to our thermometer or our internal momentum running-

    19. HS

      Yeah

    20. RC

      ... at a fast speed, and we think that's our natural speed, but it isn't.

    21. HS

      I know. Yeah.

    22. RC

      It's your conditioned speed.

    23. HS

      It is.

    24. RC

      And you can actually uncondition it-

    25. HS

      Yeah

    26. RC

      ... without needing to go to, you know, a wonderful retreat. You can start to do that with five or 10 minutes a day, can't you?

    27. HS

      You totally can. And I would say the thing is, it's, it's actually, it's not just about momentum and speed. It's like if we get that little space, yes, in time we'll learn to disengage-

    28. RC

      Mm-hmm

    29. HS

      ... and we'll... It's like unplugging, disconnecting, and you suddenly feel alive in a different way. And I feel that once we've got that sense more consistently, touching into it more consistently-

    30. RC

      Mm

  6. 23:31 – 26:51

    Finding Peace in Stillness

    1. RC

      I just wanted to, if I may, read a section from I think my favorite book of yours, Original Love, entitled An Invitation at the start.

    2. HS

      Yeah, please. Of course, yeah.

    3. RC

      Because I think it really speaks to what we're talking about. "Imagine you're alone in a quiet room. No one can disturb you. You're comfortable, you're still, and gradually you're getting the sense that a greater quiet surrounds you and holds you. The more you feel this quiet, the more you know in your bones that you can trust it. It's beautiful and precious, and you find yourself letting go of your plans. Your to-do list evaporates. Your agenda disappears like vanishing ink. Now there's only the quiet, which feels almost like a presence, and it brings on a deep sense of wellbeing." And then, Henry, you continue, uh, with another paragraph, but then I'm just gonna pick it up-

    4. HS

      Mm

    5. RC

      ... one paragraph later. "In a while, you take a deeper breath and end the period of meditation. You go downstairs, make coffee, and enter your day feeling not just replenished, but as if you have just touched something wider, an unnameable mystery, a secret side to your life that has reset your priorities." Mm. Yeah. I, I'm glad I wrote that, actually. [laughs] It's beautiful. Because I feel always... I'm not always so keen on what I wrote before, but actually that, that... Yeah. I, I sort of... I think that's right. You stand by it? I stand by it. I think that that's the big point, that we... Once we do, once we do the disconnecting, the slowing down a little bit, it, it's not just that we go slower- Yeah ... and we're more appreciate. We touch the mystery, the mystery of being, and that's the big, that's the big kahuna. That's the thing that- Yeah ... really matters. That's what I wanna focus on in today's conversation because you've been on the show twice before, and, you know, we've covered all kinds of practical things to do with meditation and some of its benefits, and it would be very easy to talk about the science of how meditation can help us with depression, anxiety, burnout, increase or change the structure of your brain, improve focus, all these things, which it does. But I think there's something much deeper that it does that probably underpins all of that. And again, you touch on it there. You know- Yeah ... a secret side to your life that has reset your priorities. That's what's happened to me, maybe six weeks ago, something like that. I, I think we need to hear about it 'cause it's really important and it... 'Cause it... You know, th- this is the... This is what really matters, is that we, we think we sort of know what life is. We know it in a certain way. We have a consensus about it, you know, and, and we're conditioned to, to go with that consensus. But there's a totally different way of knowing this life where we- Yeah ... where it's about... it's more about not knowing. Yeah. We sense in a different way. We experience it in a different way, and it... And we, we actually get closer to the mystery of being. So please share what you shared with me and I'll... and we'll- We'll unpack it ... you know, we'll unpack it. Yeah.

  7. 26:51 – 31:57

    Non-Dual Awakening: Rangan’s Experience

    1. RC

      Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So a friend of mine was having a birthday celebration. This friend has been doing a lot of what would be called men's work for the past few years, okay? So, you know, he's found that incredibly helpful to help him understand himself, to become a better man, a better father, a better husband. He, he's just found it incredible. So my friend invited a few people for this weekend away. I was the only one who was invited who had not done, you know, men's work before, okay? But my friend thought that because of the things I'm interested in and the sort of things that I have done, that I would fit right in. Now, I didn't know much about what was gonna happen, and on the first day, on the Friday, they have something from their men's work, I think called a circle. Mm-hmm. And basically, you know, a fire is lit, and we are sitting around the circle, and they have a process for everyone to go and share something about themselves. It was incredible because, I'd say, at the end of that hour, I felt I knew all of these guys really well, right? Because there was real honesty and vulnerability, and you realize we've all got a narrative and a story behind us actually being there, right? Yeah. And just to be clear, this is very different from the sort of birthday celebrations I used to do with this guy maybe 20 years ago, okay? [laughs] So, um, there's been some evolution, let's put it like that. [laughs] But on the Saturday, we sat round, and this is something one of his, his friends, uh, and his wife had actually set up, where we were gonna go around and express gratitude for who this friend of ours was. Mm-hmm. What he's meant to us, what we're grateful for about who he has been and the person he is about to become, and it was just so beautiful just hearing all these people express from their hearts in a way that men often don't. It was so powerful, right? People were tearing up. It w- it was just absolutely beautiful. There- We're out in nature. There's a fire there. Mm. Yeah. It, it was just incredible. I'm just sitting there. I'm feeling amazing. I close my eyes, and at some point, it, it just feels different. Like, at some point, Henry- Mm-hmm ... I no longer could feel where I ended and the world began. Oh, right. I think I could feel my bum on my seat and my bare foot on the grass, I think, but I couldn't feel anything else. Like, I, I almost lost my sense of who I was and where my body ended. Yeah. It felt amazing. It, it felt like bliss. Just to be clear, I hadn't meditated beforehand. Um, I wasn't expecting anything. I was just sitting there. Yeah. I was just down to see my buddy. Yeah. And I, I, I didn't know what to expect that weekend and, and that... I... When I was feeling this, Henry, at one point, I became aware w- that I was... This was just an incredible feeling that I had never experienced before. And I was tempted, and I, and I stopped myself from opening my eyes because what I thought, and maybe I'd come out of this, I don't really know, Henry, but as I think back, it felt so good. I thought, "Rangan, if you open your eyes, you may never feel this again." So I didn't want to open my eyes, right? And so I didn't. I just kept them shut, and I, and I sort of bathed in the luxurious bliss that I was feeling. So that's kind of what happened, right?

    2. HS

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      All I know is that when I finally came out of it and when this whole kind of ritual had finished, I just felt different.

    4. HS

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      I felt I'd experienced something I'd never, ever experienced before, and I loved it.

    6. HS

      Yeah. Yeah.

    7. RC

      So I could say more, Henry-

    8. HS

      Yeah, yeah

    9. RC

      ... but I'll just stop there for a moment-

    10. HS

      No, that's, yeah, yeah

    11. RC

      ... if you have any questions.

    12. HS

      Yeah, no, that's fantastic. Just to, just to, just to recap a tiny bit on a couple of points. So there's a moment, and then it extends, when you, you suddenly cannot tell where you end and the world begins.

  8. 31:57 – 43:04

    How Meditation Helps Us Feel Connected

    1. RC

      Yeah. The clocks are about to change. The mornings are darker. Everyone around you seems to be coming down with something, and suddenly that wellbeing you felt in the summer seems a long time ago. I certainly know that feeling, and that's why at this time of year, I remind myself to lean into the fundamentals, and for me, one of those fundamentals is AG1. AG1 is a daily health drink that has been in my own life for over eight years, and one of the things I like about it the most is the fact that many of the nutrients it contains, vitamin C, vitamin A, zinc, and selenium, supports a healthy immune system. I also like the fact that AG1 is committed to continuous improvement and updating its formula as the scientific research evolves, and the fact that each batch is independently tested for quality and safety markers, including heavy metals and allergens. This is how they can guarantee what's in your scoop and what's not. Right now, you can get a free AG1 Flavour Sampler, an AGZ Sampler to try all the flavors, plus free Vitamin D3+K2 and AG1 Welcome Kit with your first subscription order. That's $87 in free gifts for first-time subscribers. Just click the QR code on screen or go to drinkag1.com/livemore.

    2. HS

      Where there's just one space or sensation-

    3. RC

      Yeah

    4. HS

      ... or something that includes both you and the world in itself. It's just one. That, that's, you know, that is, that's one of the central aspects of our deeper spiritual nature, of our, as, uh, you know, in Buddhism it's called Buddha nature. It means that we, we, we're, we, we've habitually, in a conditioned way, believe that we're separate. That's the foundation of our egoic identity, is that it's separate, that we are alone in being ourself. You know, that basically, that's our fundamental nature, is a separate entity. And what I would, you know, humbly offer, see you got a taste of, is when somehow a door opens and that separateness is swept away-

    5. RC

      Mm

    6. HS

      ... or is invaded by something larger that is not separate.

    7. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    8. HS

      Where we discover we're part, we are one with. You could say we're part of, but there's a, it's, neither of those phrases are quite right. It's like the true nature of things steps in. Somehow something in us opens, and nobody, nobody has, I d- [laughs] I hesitate to say this with a little bit of trepidation, but I believe nobody knows how to control that. When and how and why something in us can open, and we just receive this true nature of things that's not separate. And when we, when it happens, it's, it, it's, it's, it's a, it's a dimensional shift.

    9. RC

      Mm.

    10. HS

      It's like we, we didn't know before that there's something about us that is very real, that is not about separateness, that it's, it's, it's a-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. HS

      ... wholeness of, with everything, world and us w- as one.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. HS

      And y- you, to taste that, I mean, I want to say congratulations because, you know, it's, it's, people seek it. You know? [laughs] People-

    15. RC

      Well-

    16. HS

      ... seek it for years.

    17. RC

      Well-

    18. HS

      [laughs]

    19. RC

      ... there's, there's so much I want to say. Like, first thing I want to make clear is that there were no substances-

    20. HS

      Yeah

    21. RC

      ... involved.

    22. HS

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      I mean-

    24. HS

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... literally it was just a, well, I say a normal Saturday. No.

    26. HS

      Yeah.

    27. RC

      It wa- it was, I was at this thing with my mates-

    28. HS

      Yeah

    29. RC

      ... but I wasn't trying to get anything.

    30. HS

      No.

  9. 43:04 – 51:50

    What Happens After Awakening?

    1. RC

      I take... I- it's just like life that, that, you know, I'm looking at you.

    2. HS

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      If I really broaden out, I can see Gareth in the corner shooting. I can see the cameras. But of course, there's stuff behind me.

    4. HS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    5. RC

      Right? Just 'cause I'm not seeing it doesn't mean it's not there.

    6. HS

      Yeah, yeah.

    7. RC

      I know, I know this can sound-

    8. HS

      Yeah, no-

    9. RC

      ... so obvious, right?

    10. HS

      Yeah. No, but-

    11. RC

      At the same time, it, it doesn't feel obvious. It feels-

    12. HS

      Yeah

    13. RC

      ... it feels really quite profound that it's like that's all going on.

    14. HS

      Yeah, yeah.

    15. RC

      But I'm just focused on this.

    16. HS

      Yes.

    17. RC

      But it doesn't mean that isn't happening, because it is.

    18. HS

      Exactly, and I think you're describing... I think that we can get this bigger awareness-

    19. RC

      Yeah

    20. HS

      ... where we're, we're... Although we're not seeing the objects behind us, we have a sense of space-

    21. RC

      Mm-hmm

    22. HS

      ... behind us, to the side, around the-

    23. RC

      Mm-hmm

    24. HS

      ... field of known experience.

    25. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    26. HS

      There's a larger presence, a larger space, a larger awareness that's wrapping around everything. So maybe you're getting some sense of that.

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. HS

      And it, and it brings a bit of peace because, I mean, it brings a large dose-

    29. RC

      Mm

    30. HS

      ... of peace because it's like a bigger context in which life itself, as we know it, is happening. There's like, there is a larger context, if you see what I mean? Like-

  10. 51:50 – 57:27

    What Is Spiritual Awakening?

    1. HS

      He said, "I've... What needed to be done has been done. I've found the truth. I've awakened." And Vishnu said, "That's all very well, but look at the world. It's burning up with suffering."

    2. RC

      Mm.

    3. HS

      And the Buddha says, "Well, I can't do anything about that. They'd never get this. It would be like trying to swim against the stream." And Vishnu said, "You've gotta try anyway." So that expression, swimming against the stream, is exactly what we've been talking about with this conditioned mind, the conditioned way we live. To go against that is, is really hard but totally possible. And so he got up, and he spent the next 49 years teaching, and, you know, we're still benefiting all these years, 2,500 years later. I mean, I was... He's only one-

    4. RC

      Yeah

    5. HS

      ... of dozens of spiritual teachers. But the point being actually awakening in this kind of way to non-duality, non-separateness, it doesn't mean, um, we become a useless blob. You know, you c- you can w- uh, uh, y- you still live a life.

    6. RC

      I think you can exist in the world with more love.

    7. HS

      Exactly.

    8. RC

      Right? You can exist in this, I guess, more conditioned world. [laughs]

    9. HS

      Yeah, yeah.

    10. RC

      But enjoying it more.

    11. HS

      Yes.

    12. RC

      Uh, understanding it more, with more of an open heart.

    13. HS

      Yes.

    14. RC

      I guess what's reassuring with various traditions, like the Zen tradition or the Vedic traditions-

    15. HS

      Yeah

    16. RC

      ... is that there's m- many, many human beings who've experienced things like this in the past, right?

    17. HS

      That's right.

    18. RC

      And, and they have, I guess, created frameworks of understanding, so we can sort of try with our minds to make sense of what just happened. In fact, in-

    19. HS

      Yeah

    20. RC

      ... in Original Love, Henry, I think you re- you talk about some research where they say maybe 30% of humans have had some kind of, you know-

    21. HS

      Yeah

    22. RC

      ... trans- transcendent experience.

    23. HS

      Yeah.

    24. RC

      I don't think all of them are necessarily non-dual, but something like that.

    25. HS

      Yeah.

    26. RC

      But I, I just wanna make sure we keep the skeptic in mind here, right? So-

    27. HS

      Yeah

    28. RC

      ... for someone who's never experienced this, they might literally be thinking, "What on earth are you two banging on about?"

    29. HS

      [laughs]

    30. RC

      Right?

  11. 57:27 – 1:01:01

    How to Start Meditating

    1. RC

      Yeah

    2. HS

      ... relationally, personally, um, in the career, in, in our, in our power to, of concentration, all will be helped because it is such a deeply human practice to be still and quiet. I assume that for tens of thousands of years and Paleolithic humans would have done this. It would just have been part and parcel of an ordinary life, that you get lots of hours in the day when you're not doing very much, or at least some, and it, and it would be natural to be still, you know? And may... I mean, if you're a hunter, you'll spend a lot of time still, because they're more likely to not scare off prey if they're still. And then when they move, move very quietly and slowly, far more observant. That's all in our history. And, you know, ever since farming or, you know, ten thousand years ago, whatever, we've been losing that.

    3. RC

      Yeah.

    4. HS

      We've been more and more caught up in, in, in the world of civilization that puts pressures on us that are completely different.

    5. RC

      Mm.

    6. HS

      And actually, it's still in our makeup to, to benefit from stillness, quiet, and the peace. It's like, it's like we get quiet and still, and we find a bigger quiet and a bigger stillness-

    7. RC

      Yeah

    8. HS

      ... and a bigger peace. And you don't... You can do all that without any question about awakening. You can just, you know- Have you tried to meditate before? Perhaps you've heard about some of the benefits, like reducing stress and increased focus, and you've given it a go and thought it's not the practice for you. Well, I believe that may well be because you have not tried the right approach. The Way is the only meditation app with a single long-term pathway. You're not forced to make loads of choices each day. Instead, you're guided on an enjoyable and progressive journey that deepens your practice step by step. Since I partnered with The Way, I have had so much positive feedback. One listener said, "Dr. Chatterjee, I came to The Way through your podcast. I have tried other meditation apps in the past with limited success and like the idea of following a single guided path. I'm nearly two months in now and loving it. Henry's gentle and concise approach is very calming, and The Way is now a part of my morning routine." You see, that's the sentiment that so many people report when they start meditating with The Way. For listeners of my podcast, The Way is offering thirty free days to establish your own meditation practice. All you have to do is click on the QR code on screen or go to thewayapp.com/livemore to get started. Yeah, and I think that's a really great reminder because I think there's, there will have been many humans who have existed and, and, and led happy and contented, meaningful lives and perhaps never had an awakening experience.

    9. RC

      That's... Yeah.

    10. HS

      And-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. HS

      ... I, I'm, I think back to the, the cart path analogy you write about in Original Love that we've spoken about on, I think, both of our previous conversations, where there's these two cart paths. Yeah, cart path one, there's mindfulness, support, absorption. These are things that meditation can really help you with, right?

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. HS

      And alongside it, not at the end of those three, but alongside it is awakening. Awakening-

    15. RC

      Yeah

    16. HS

      ... is always there.

    17. RC

      Yes.

    18. HS

      You had

  12. 1:01:01 – 1:04:31

    Why Seeking More Won’t Make You Happy

    1. HS

      it at nineteen without a meditation practice.

    2. RC

      Exactly.

    3. HS

      So it's not as if you meditate to get it.

    4. RC

      No.

    5. HS

      It can just happen.

    6. RC

      Yeah.

    7. HS

      And you can have it and still exist in the world. I, certainly my limited experience, uh, because it's just been a few weeks, is I can still... I think I can just exist in the world with... I, I felt I was already pretty peaceful and, um, and chilled.

    8. RC

      I think even more so.

    9. HS

      [laughs]

    10. RC

      Like-

    11. HS

      Yeah, yeah

    12. RC

      ... you can exist in, you can exist in the world with a much bigger hearts-

    13. HS

      Yes

    14. RC

      ... and even-

    15. HS

      Yes

    16. RC

      ... bigger hearts.

    17. HS

      Yes. I think it's-

    18. RC

      And, and when I think about perspectives, I, I, I'm drawn to, you know, the sun, right? So your reality, if you're just looking at the end of the ocean in the morning, you just see the sun rise. Like, it literally looks like it's rising really, really fast, right? Or at night, the sun is setting. Okay, that's one view. The other view, which I guess the scientific consensus today, is that actually, no, the sun is still-

    19. HS

      [laughs]

    20. RC

      ... and we in the world are revolving, and we're the ones spinning.

    21. HS

      Mm-hmm.

    22. RC

      Right?

    23. HS

      Yeah.

    24. RC

      Both things are happening. I can s- I can perceive it-

    25. HS

      Yeah

    26. RC

      ... as a sunrise and a sunset.

    27. HS

      Yeah.

    28. RC

      And there can be a deeper knowing that actually, no, no, no, this is sort of an illusion.

    29. HS

      Yeah.

    30. RC

      Right? Because it's the world that's spinning around the sun.

  13. 1:04:31 – 1:10:49

    What Does a Happy Life Look Like?

    1. HS

      Yeah. It's, it's his. It's, it's really interesting that, isn't it? It's like by s- p- the pursuit of what we think is best, we're missing all the beauty right here with humble, humble little things that we don't think are the best. You know, we think, you know, I think I want some great awakening, but what about the cup, the beautiful cup that's in your hand? You know, the beautiful tabletop.

    2. RC

      Yeah. We're always seeking, aren't we? We think it's out there. When this happens, when I buy that, when that happens to me at work.

    3. HS

      Yes, then it'll all be okay.

    4. RC

      But it, it-

    5. HS

      Yeah

    6. RC

      ... it really isn't that.

    7. HS

      No, 'cause that, that-

    8. RC

      That's the con. That-

    9. HS

      Exactly

    10. RC

      ... it really is.

    11. HS

      It is a con.

    12. RC

      But, but you, it's, you only realize it's a con when you've seen through it.

    13. HS

      That's right.

    14. RC

      But until then, you-

    15. HS

      Yeah

    16. RC

      ... you actually believe that is what's going to happen.

    17. HS

      Exactly. It's like we're in a little capsule of wanting and seeking-

    18. RC

      Mm

    19. HS

      ... at one end, fearing and trying to get away from at the other end, and we think that if we get to that next destination of got that thing, we'll be out of the capsule, but we won't. We're in the same capsule. The capsule hasn't been challenged. Do you see what I mean?

    20. RC

      Yeah.

    21. HS

      Whereas we can actually challenge that framework, I'm calling it a capsule, like we're living in it, of wanting X and seeking Y and fleeing A and B, you know, trying to avoid them. That model will just carry on being our model-

    22. RC

      Yeah

    23. HS

      ... until we slow down and get to see it more clearly, and then it can dissolve, and we find, oh my gosh, I'm, this is a vast life already here before I've got anything.

    24. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    25. HS

      You know? And there, there's a... I remember the first time I did a retreat with my, with my current Zen Master, Yamada Roshi, a Japanese guy. You know, he's, he, he, he gave this powerful little bit in his talk, the, the first retreat I did, where he's saying, "You know, we humans have got this problem. We, we want certain things. We want to avoid certain things. We want, we want, you know, objects and possessions and wealth or, or whatever and, or at least security and relationships. We don't wanna lose them. But we also know that we, we are gonna lose them when we die. You know, eventually we're gonna lose them, and we probably will lose many of them before then anyway." And he said, "But Z- Zen's solution is not, um, how to get them and keep them. It's to discover that we never really had them anyway. We never had stuff the way we thought we did."

    26. RC

      Mm.

    27. HS

      And that, you know, what, what does that mean?

    28. RC

      Yeah.

    29. HS

      But it's to do with this awakening thing of inside and outside being one.

    30. RC

      In terms of reimagining reality or questioning what we think and what we know to be true, one thing I've been thinking a lot about over the last years is, I guess, the true nature of what it means to live a happy and contented life. And what I'm specifically talking about- Is this idea that we need to be mobile and independent in order to enjoy life. That's the conventional view. That's the view I hold stroke held, right? And, and even on this podcast and in many health and wellbeing podcasts, we talk about how do you stay mobile? How do you stay so you can be independent in your 80s and 90s? And I want that. And at the same time, I do believe it's possible to be perfectly happy without being able to do any of those things. And why I think that, or, or the, or the kind of situations in life that have resulted in me questioning my preexisting assumptions are... I think there's two or three examples. One is my parents.

  14. 1:10:49 – 1:12:20

    The Journey of Meditation

    1. HS

      you know, she's been an academic actually, and as well as a priest, and a very busy person. And now she's still, she's quiet, she listens to the wind, she looks at the trees. Her mind's still clear as a bell, but she's at peace doing so little.

    2. RC

      Yeah. To, to me, it almost feels, especially these days, right? Because it's so easy to, to stay occupied.

    3. HS

      Yeah.

    4. RC

      Right? Phones-

    5. HS

      Yeah

    6. RC

      ... Netflix, whatever it might be.

    7. HS

      Yeah. Yeah.

    8. RC

      You know, there's always something-

    9. HS

      Yeah

    10. RC

      ... that can take you away from yourself, right?

    11. HS

      Yes. Yes.

    12. RC

      And it can be very enjoyable and entertaining to do so. But I think in some of these examples that I've mentioned, when that is, I guess, taken away from you, right? Maybe you didn't choose it.

    13. HS

      Yeah.

    14. RC

      It almost... And I can't speak for someone else, right? If Dad was here, I'd love to chat about-

    15. HS

      Yeah. Yeah

    16. RC

      ... this with him. But it's almost as if when, you know, staying busy and constantly doing things has been removed from you, you're left with no choice but to see what exists underneath.

    17. HS

      Yeah. It's like what's already here before all those activities.

    18. RC

      Yeah. At the same time-

    19. HS

      Yeah

    20. RC

      ... I am not at all saying, and, and I'd love your take on this, right? Even despite knowing that,

  15. 1:12:20 – 1:15:02

    How to Find Time to Meditate

    1. RC

      I think I'd still rather be active and independent in my 90s.

    2. HS

      [laughs]

    3. RC

      Right? You know, I, I, I believe I can do the things and practices that I enjoy doing that will hopefully keep me mobile and independent for years. And at the same time, I can also acknowledge that should things go in a different direction, I still think it's possible for me to find peace and happiness.

    4. HS

      Yes. I, I think that's exactly right. I mean, we may as well pursue that or hope to... Hope... Do what will be more likely to allow you to stay active-

    5. RC

      Mm

    6. HS

      ... mobile, independent, as long as possible, but know that you're gonna be perfectly fine actually, even if, even if that doesn't work out. It's-

    7. RC

      Yeah

    8. HS

      ... it's like we... It's, it's, it's, again, it's a little bit like discovering that inside us and outside us are one. It's, it's analogous to finding the, the pursuit of things. Um, we, we can do it. It's fine and good that we do it, but actually, if we can't do it, we're more likely to discover-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. HS

      ... this other way.

    11. RC

      That's the irony.

    12. HS

      It is. It is. Yeah.

    13. RC

      When you can't distract-

    14. HS

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... you're much more likely to find it.

    16. HS

      Yeah.

    17. RC

      Henry, listen-

    18. HS

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... I, I could go- So deep into awakening with you

    20. HS

      Yeah

    21. RC

      I guess primarily because of what has happened in my life recently

    22. HS

      Yeah

    23. RC

      But it was, "Okay, let's just shift the focus." I know a lot of people love listening to you, and they love meditating on the way, right? Since you started coming on my show, there's many thousands of my listeners who use The Way app each day, like myself, like many of my team. So many of them will say it's the best meditation app out there. But I think what makes it different is that there's no choice, which sounds like a restriction, but actually is freedom really-

    24. HS

      [sighs]

    25. RC

      ... because you just go on and you do the next meditation. You don't have to choose between hundreds of different ones. You just do the next one, and it, and it, it feels like you're on a journey that you are guiding us on. It's not about awakening. Having said that, if you do have an awakening experience, the teachings will probably help ground it within you-

    26. HS

      That's right

    27. RC

      ... so you know what to do with it, right?

    28. HS

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      But I thought we could maybe go to some of the common questions people-

    30. HS

      Mm-hmm

  16. 1:15:02 – 1:18:26

    Parenting and Self-Care

    1. RC

      their lives to be a little bit better and feel a bit more peace. So I've got a few questions from my audience that I thought I could put to you, and I think these are common things that people struggle with.

    2. HS

      Yeah.

    3. RC

      Okay. In terms of the practice of meditation, how do I make sure I sit consistently? It's so difficult for me to get into a routine, which makes meditation a practice that can easily slip away.

    4. HS

      Yeah. Yeah.

    5. RC

      I think this is-

    6. HS

      This is-

    7. RC

      ... really common, right?

    8. HS

      Yeah, it is. I mean, the traditional view is, like, the easiest thing is to do it first thing. If you do it first thing, um, there's a little window before the current of the day has picked you up, and, and it's generally like get it out of the way, as it were. Just do it very first thing. That's one solution that many like. And, um, another would be, like, make sure there's something you decide you won't, you won't do this without having meditated first. For example, have lunch. If you've got a lunch break, you're going to spend the first 10 minutes meditating, something like that, that you just make it a decision that you've already taken upstream, so you don't have to keep remaking-

    9. RC

      Mm

    10. HS

      ... the decision every time. See what I mean? Like-

    11. RC

      Mm

    12. HS

      ... so if it, if it's going to be first thing or it's going to be lunchtime or whene- whatever you decide, you've already decided that.

    13. RC

      Mm.

    14. HS

      And, you know, and I think it's, people find that easier to do if it's time limited. Say, "Well, for the next month, I'm doing it every morning first thing." And, and then-

    15. RC

      Be- before my coffee, for example

    16. HS

      Yeah. It could be-

    17. RC

      Something like that

    18. HS

      ... literally first thing. And I'm like-

    19. RC

      Yeah

    20. HS

      ... maybe you go to the... You have a quick pee first. You're allowed to do that. Then you're going to sit, you know. And I know somebody who put their... They like sitting on a cushion to meditate, and they put it next to their bed. So they would literally sort of spill out of bed onto the cushion-

    21. RC

      Mm

    22. HS

      ... first thing, and that would, that would make her do it every morning.

    23. RC

      It's interestingly, if you, if we think about the sort of research on habit formation-

    24. HS

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... having a reward, some sort of reward straight after you've engaged in the behavior helps to lock that behavior in and help turn it into a habit. And so in the morning, for example, many people, myself included, enjoy a cup of coffee.

    26. HS

      Yeah.

    27. RC

      And there, there's something quite powerful, isn't there, about, "Okay, I'm not going to have it until I meditate"?

    28. HS

      Exactly.

    29. RC

      So you wake up-

    30. HS

      Yeah

  17. 1:18:26 – 1:28:02

    Addiction and Shame

    1. HS

      And, um, it's a, it's a little bit more unpredictable. They're usually up really early. It's hard to get up, you know, significantly before the, before the youngsters. Um, if you can do, you know, or I would do often l- late in the day and back in-

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. HS

      ... those days with young kids. And once they're sleeping more regularly, it's all a little bit more predictable.

    4. RC

      Yeah.

    5. HS

      And again, that you just have to lock it in as a decision. That's the thing. The key thing is making the decision, you know, so that it's, again, it's not like a decision you're making daily. You've done it upstream. "I'm meditating every day, you know, and it's going to be at time X."

    6. RC

      Yeah.

    7. HS

      "And if it can't be then on a particular day, it'll be time Y." So yeah, once they're sleeping regularly, you c- you can do that, you know?

    8. RC

      I wonder if I might add something there and, and get your perspective. One of the things that I changed when I was meditating, uh, when I had young kids, is I let go of the attachment to silence. And what I mean by that is I used to have an expectation that I can only meditate in silence.

    9. HS

      Yeah.

    10. RC

      And then when my kids were little, and if they'd come or they'd, you know, come into the living room while I was meditating, it used to frustrate me.

    11. HS

      [laughs]

    12. RC

      Right?

    13. HS

      Yeah.

    14. RC

      And I thought, "It's ridiculous."

    15. HS

      Yeah.

    16. RC

      What a nice thing that they wanna come and see their dad when they've woken up. They, they wanna come down, they're excited to see you. Why should that frustrate me?

    17. HS

      [laughs]

    18. RC

      And I, I instinctively said let go of my need for silence. I thought, "Well, why can't I just meditate when they're here as well?"

    19. HS

      Yeah.

    20. RC

      And I would do that often with my daughter. I'd meditate, and I'd, I'd open my eyes, I'd s- I'd smile at her and, you know, tap the carpet next to me. And she'd come sometimes to sit next to me-

    21. HS

      Yeah, yeah

    22. RC

      ... while I did it for a bit, or she'd go off and read-

    23. HS

      Yeah

    24. RC

      ... and then come back and-

    25. HS

      Yeah

    26. RC

      ... yeah, so I just wanted to add that because many parents think, "Oh, I can't meditate now because the kids are making noise in the next room." I would say you still can.

    27. HS

      I couldn't agree more. Yeah. I mean, I, actually, I got a bit of a schooling in it when, uh, in, in the early, in my earliest days of meditating, I was a graduate student in London, and I was often taking the Tube, and I'd do it on the Tube.

    28. RC

      Mm.

    29. HS

      I would... You know, I'd sit, I'd have a 20-minute ride, and it's, it's long enough, and I'd just listen to the conversation, the clacking of the Tube, the noise of the Tube. It's, it's absolutely valid.

    30. RC

      Yeah.

  18. 1:28:02 – 1:31:43

    Love and Connection

    1. HS

      matter if it doesn't evaporate 'cause we're allowing it. You see what I mean?

    2. RC

      Mm. Yeah.

    3. HS

      I'm not meaning that we allow ourselves to do it. We allow the urge to do something that wouldn't be good for us to, to just manifest.

    4. RC

      Mm.

    5. HS

      And actually it's very... I find it's very beautiful to watch them 'cause they're actually... It's an amazing thing.

    6. RC

      Yeah.

    7. HS

      It's, "Oh, this, this thing is... This system is doing this thing, and I can just watch it."

    8. RC

      Well, that, that's kind of a theme throughout today's conversation, isn't it? But it, it's about how do we change our relationship to things.

    9. HS

      Exactly.

    10. RC

      Not nece- not necessarily changing the thing but our relationship to it.

    11. HS

      Yeah, that's right.

    12. RC

      Our relationship to life, our relationship to reality, our relationship to the urge to pick up our phone.

    13. HS

      Yes.

    14. RC

      You know?

    15. HS

      Yes, yes.

    16. RC

      And, and a lot of people who never created space between the urge and the action-

    17. HS

      Yeah

    18. RC

      ... don't know yet just how powerful it is to even pop in two minutes in between.

    19. HS

      That's right. That's right.

    20. RC

      Three minutes.

    21. HS

      That's right.

    22. RC

      Even five minutes.

    23. HS

      Yes. Yeah.

    24. RC

      You just start to separate the urge from the action.

    25. HS

      Exactly.

    26. RC

      I personally believe that's 80, 90% of the change that you, you might be seeking.

    27. HS

      You know, there, there's some research in the world of addiction actually that says typically cravings, which is a big issue for people with, you know, substance abuse issues, last s- 15 seconds. There... I don't know where-

    28. RC

      Mm

    29. HS

      ... that research came from, but I know that is a-

    30. RC

      Mm.

  19. 1:31:43 – 1:37:05

    How to Bring Meditation Into Daily Life

    1. HS

      are, and it has a, it has a loving quality to it. We just sense it more and more that there's, it's sort of love is in the air.

    2. RC

      Yeah.

    3. HS

      You know, it's sort of it's here. And it, it's, it's... I th- in, in a way I feel, oh my gosh, maybe that's the real reason to meditate-

    4. RC

      Mm-hmm

    5. HS

      ... is that we get to know a loving quality-

    6. RC

      Mm

    7. HS

      ... in the fabric of existence-

    8. RC

      Yeah

    9. HS

      ... more and more.

    10. RC

      I love that. I, I can't imagine someone will go through the pathway on the way and not at some point start to realize that they are worthy of love.

    11. HS

      Yeah.

    12. RC

      I, I think that will be a natural byproduct-

    13. HS

      Yeah

    14. RC

      ... if you show up and do the sets.

    15. HS

      Yes, yes, yes.

    16. RC

      Right?

    17. HS

      I really hope so.

    18. RC

      Yeah.

    19. HS

      You know? I mean, I was gonna say that I've, I've met many people over the years who what really opened that up for them, a sense of being loved or having love as part of their life experience, was, was something really difficult. They went through something, you know, a tragic loss or a, a really, you know-

    20. RC

      Mm

    21. HS

      ... very difficult situation, maybe a, a, a very grave diagnosis or something like that, you know, either for them or someone they loved, and in that sort of extremity of human ex- experience and suffering, a shift happened where something gave way that they might not have wanted to give way. They thought they needed it, whatever it might have been, but it did. And instead of finding, um, that they were, um, unable to cope, they found that they were h- met and held by another dimension of, of their own experience-

    22. RC

      Mm

    23. HS

      ... that, that was loving. And so there's a, there's a strange phenomenon whereby the giving up of our coping strategies with difficult things can-

    24. RC

      Mm

    25. HS

      ... actually be the thing that opens us up to a discovery that we didn't need those coping strategies to begin with.

    26. RC

      Yeah.

    27. HS

      We surrender, and w- and actually it's okay. In fact, it's a blessing.

    28. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    29. HS

      You know, we, we discover something that we hadn't known about our very life.

    30. RC

      Yeah, yeah. I really like this question, um, because I, I think it will be a very common sentiment with people who have tried meditation, have heard about the benefits of meditation, a- and it's this, Henry: "I enjoy my sits, but I have a hard time carrying anything from them into the rest of my day. Often when I start meditating, I realize I haven't really been aware since my last sit the previous morning. How do we apply what we do in meditation to the rest of our lives?"

  20. 1:37:05 – 1:43:30

    How to Stop Reacting in Relationships

    1. HS

      you've been sitting down-

    2. RC

      Yeah

    3. HS

      ... and you're about to stand up, or you're about to open a door, uh, you know, th- the most basic sort of transitions, or you're moving, yeah, from one room to another, you're going from inside to outside. Every time, see if you can notice, every time there's a transition, however small, notice that there is one, and that that's enough. That can be enough right there, just to notice I'm going from sitting to standing. If you want a little bit extra, it would be be aware of an in breath and an out breath, and then stand up. Be aware of an in breath, an out breath, and then go through the door. You'll find just those little micro-

    4. RC

      Yeah

    5. HS

      ... moments, they make a big difference.

    6. RC

      Yeah, I c- I, I mean, I've, I've experienced that myself, you know. They, they feel, they feel almost insignificant-

    7. HS

      Yeah

    8. RC

      ... but you're bringing yourself back to your body, to your breath.

    9. HS

      To here and now.

    10. RC

      And even that question-

    11. HS

      Yeah, yeah

    12. RC

      ... if you think about it- Often when I start meditating, I realize I haven't really been aware since my last sit the previous morning.

    13. HS

      Yeah.

    14. RC

      Well, you know what? That is awareness.

    15. HS

      Yeah, of course it is. Exactly.

    16. RC

      That, that is literally what-

    17. HS

      Yeah

    18. RC

      ... we're talking about.

    19. HS

      Yeah, no, that's progress.

    20. RC

      That is progress.

    21. HS

      That's- [laughs]

    22. RC

      And, and-

    23. HS

      That's really good, actually

    24. RC

      ... the human tendency-

    25. HS

      Yeah

    26. RC

      ... and I, I, I, I w- I would see this in practice all the time anyway. I think the principle applies here. I, I w- I would for many years see people who'd been ill for years, and they were looking for someone to really take an alternative root cause approach with them, okay? And I'd seen them for about an hour, hour and a half, to really try and understand what is driving this and how can we help it. And one thing I noticed very early on is even if this patient is significantly better in two months' time, they've forgotten the things that are better. They're focused on the things that are still not going well, right?

    27. HS

      Right, right, yeah.

    28. RC

      And that's not a criticism. That's just-

    29. HS

      No

    30. RC

      ... I think the human condition.

  21. 1:43:30 – 1:51:02

    Final Thoughts on Meditation

    1. HS

      I know that my intention is to be more, you know, with myself, balanced, grounded, centered, knowing, sensing, you know, my own place in the world here.

    2. RC

      Yeah.

    3. HS

      You know?

    4. RC

      You mentioned the word intention there, and I think, again, that's a very much underemphasized sentiment. This question, which I think many people who are listening right now will, will probably have experienced themselves, I mean, you know, often it's our loved ones who get the worst of us, right?

    5. HS

      [laughs]

    6. RC

      The, the, the irony there, right?

    7. HS

      It is. It is. It is, yeah.

    8. RC

      But one of the things I love about my morning solitude practice, which includes meditation, is the intention behind it. And one of the intentions I set, and, and very much so over the past few weeks, has been an intention to live the day with a fully open heart. And if you keep reminding yourself of that every morning-

    9. HS

      Mm

    10. RC

      ... the chances are that you're gonna do it more often than before. Yeah.

    11. HS

      Yeah.

    12. RC

      You know, you may react at one point, but then the following morning in your practice, you can acknowledge that and be truthful and go, "Hey, you know..." W- And, and, and also try and figure out, "Why did I..." Yes. "Ah, you know what? I didn't meditate. I, I was rushing around. I didn't go for my walk." Whatever it might be, you start to-

    13. HS

      Yeah

    14. RC

      ... understand yourself better.

    15. HS

      Yes.

    16. RC

      And, and I completely agree. You know, trying to get the other person to change is one of the most futile endeavors in life, and you keep trying-

    17. HS

      Yeah. And we'll all-

    18. RC

      ... and trying.

    19. HS

      And we'll all do it. [laughs]

    20. RC

      We all do it until you realize-

    21. HS

      Yeah

    22. RC

      ... this is a freaking waste of time.

    23. HS

      Yeah.

    24. RC

      Right?

    25. HS

      Exactly.

    26. RC

      'Cause you've got no control over that.

    27. HS

      That's right.

    28. RC

      But as you say, you know, when you change yourself, you change the relationship.

    29. HS

      That's right. Exactly.

    30. RC

      The dynamic changes.

Episode duration: 1:51:02

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