Neuroscientist REVEALS The First Thing You Should Do EVERY MORNING For Longevity! | Wendy Suzuki

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:00 You are a neuroscientist that is widely respected all over the world. A lot of your research has completely changed the way we understand our brains. So I thought a really great place to start would be around a part of your morning routine, 30 minutes of exercise every single morning, Monday to Friday, but also at weekends, and I believe that that has been informed by your research.

Wendy Suzuki 0:29 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:30 So why do you do that?

Wendy Suzuki 0:32 I do that because I know from, not just my research, but the research of all of my colleagues, that every single time you move your body, starting with just walking, but I like to do kind of cardio, weights workout for 30 minutes. What that is doing i- it is releasing a whole bunch of neurochemicals in your brain, and all your listeners out there have heard of some of these neurochemicals, dopamine, serotonin, noradrenaline, but also growth factors are being released. And I like to say that it's like giving your brain a wonderful bubble bath of neurochemicals. And what do these neurochemicals do? Well, the dopamine and serotonin are making you feel good. They're bringing your energy up. And the other thing that we know that happens with, uh, movement, physical activity, is that the functions of your prefrontal cortex right behind your forehead, um, get sharper. They get better. And so, um, I do that first thing in the morning, and I do that to prepare my brain for work. And, uh, I wanna come into work, I wanna be happy, I wanna be, uh, motivated, I, and I wanna be able to focus well. And the reason why we do it every morning for 30 minutes, no matter what day it is, is, um, really about habit formation. I, I was all over the place. You know, I would go for, you know, seven days in a row, and then, oh, I'd, I'd be too tired. I found really during the pandemic that 30 minutes first thing in the morning was something that I can do. I could keep doing it every single day. It didn't tire me out the next day, and I still felt motivated to come, and my muscles weren't too sore. Uh, and it just helped with that, that, um, gradual habit formation. So I do it for my brain and m- for my brain, uh, productivity. Uh, and, uh, the, the 30 minutes every morning is really about building that habit that will stick with you and does not go away.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:34 You mentioned a lot of things there that I think we all want, happiness, motivation-

Wendy Suzuki 2:42 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:42 ... focus, productivity, thinking better.

Wendy Suzuki 2:46 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:46 You know, these are things that no matter who we are, we're all seeking them in our lives.

Wendy Suzuki 2:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:52 Now, you've found that when you do this as part of your morning routine, you almost set your body and brain up for the day with those emotions and feelings that you want. I think that's really, really powerful.

Wendy Suzuki 3:06 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:06 Can you, can you rewind to when you didn't do this first thing in the morning?

Wendy Suzuki 3:11 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:11 You know, what-

Wendy Suzuki 3:12 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:12 ... how did your day go then compared to how does your day go now?

Wendy Suzuki 3:17 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:17 And do you also remember, was there a specific bit of research that when you did it or read it, you thought, "Wait a minute, I've gotta change something"?

Wendy Suzuki 3:26 Yes. Uh, yes to both. Okay. So here's how it goes when you don't, um, do that, that movement, don't put that movement in your day, and this was a lived experience. It was, I was going through a really, really stressful part of my career, which is trying to get tenure at an American university. They give you six years, and they say, "Okay, you have six years to make your name, and if you don't do it, we're gonna fire you. And if you are gonna do it, then, then we will embrace you for the rest of your career, and we can't fire you." So, you know, no big deal, like... [laughs] And so you have six years to do this. And so what did I do? My wonderful strategy was to only work. I'm just gonna work. I'm going to, uh, just go into the lab, and I'm, I'm going to, you know, relinquish my s- my social life, and I'm just going to work, and I'm going to eat all the wonderful takeout in New York City 'cause that's so fast and efficient and it's delicious, um, with lots of calories. And so I'm gonna do that, too. And so I, um, I got stuff done, definitely, but I had no social life. I found myself, uh, um, with much more weight than, than I, I, uh, was used to because I wasn't moving at all. And mainly I was unhappy. I was, I was just unhappy. I was doing... I was working really hard, but very, very unhappy. And, uh, my wake-up call came when I gave myself a vacation, but, uh, [laughs] because I had no friends, 'cause I had no social life, I went by myself. I went on a river rafting trip to Peru. So I was trying to get as far away from New York City as I could, so I went by myself on one of these group, you know, river rafting trips. And it was so much fun, so beautiful, walking around, um, Inca ruins, but I realized I was the weakest one on this whole trip. There were 65-year-old triathletes that were so strong, and there were 16-year-olds that came with their father that were also stronger than me. And so I came back saying, "Okay, I, I got a little bit of outdoors. I felt so good after this. I need to go to the gym and get a little bit more movement in my life." And it was really that. That was my, that was my realization. When I started going to the gym, and I remember the very first class I took was a hip hop dance class. Oh my God. I'm really bad at hip hop dancing. And, but it was very, very, um... It, it, it really pushed my limits, and I remember coming out of there going, "Oh my God. I hope nobody, you know, took any pictures or anything." But, but really got my aerobic, you know, uh, uh, activity up. And I still felt good. Even though I felt like a terrible hip hop dancer, I still felt great. And, um, that is what made me go back to the literature. When I started feeling so much better after, after this, so much better than, than a month before when I was only working 100% of the time, that's when I went back and looked at all of the research showing that movement changes your mood. Movement, regular movement can be as effective as some of the most commonly used antidepressants. And while I wasn't depressed, I wasn't happy. I was not a happy person in my life, and I felt myself shifting out of that, first with this trip to Peru, but then with that regular bringing movement into my life. So it was kind of a, a self-realization kind of backed up by the neuroscience that I, I was able to go back and, and research because I happen to be a neuroscientist.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:01 Yeah. I mean, that's so interesting. Um, that hip-hop dance class sounds like a lot of fun. Do you still do that at the moment?

Wendy Suzuki 7:08 I do. I... Well, um, I, during the pandemic, I switched to, um, video workouts at home, so now I do it, do it at home. And I don't know, it's not as fun to do, uh, hip-hop dance on video, so occasionally I'll go out and take a cla- class now. But yeah, I got much better at dance after, after that very first... Not, not so much hip-hop. Um, that's still not my, my forte, but [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:32 Uh...

Wendy Suzuki 7:33 You know, it's, it's about playing and, and for me, it was about discovering. Turns out I, I love kickboxing, and when I say that, you know, people go, "Oh, you know, don't get Wendy mad." But it's about the rhythm and the power move that you're doing in kickboxing that really I love.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:50 Yeah. What's interesting for me is that you went on this vacation from your life-

Wendy Suzuki 7:56 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:56 ... and that inspired you to get moving. You start moving, and you feel these kind of emotions that you have never felt before, and that then encourages you, because you're a neuroscientist, to go and study.

Wendy Suzuki 8:11 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:11 But presumably, presumably before you'd experienced that, you were probably aware, I'm guessing, that movement's kind of good for the body, it's kind of good for the mind. But, you know, w- I guess where I'm getting to with this is that-

Wendy Suzuki 8:26 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:27 ... a lot of us know things. We've read it in the media, we've heard it on podcasts. But we can know stuff, but it doesn't land in our brain so we take action.

Wendy Suzuki 8:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:37 And so it's really interesting for me that you had to, even with all your prestigious training and your prestigious position as a professor, you had to feel it first, and that feeling, that experience is what led you to actually do more research.

Wendy Suzuki 8:52 Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's easy to understand. I mean, if we ask are all MDs peak health, are they all exercising and eating to the best, you know, uh, that science tells us, clearly, with all due respect to my MD colleagues, the answer is no, and certainly the answer is no for neuroscientists, exercise physiologists. Uh, sometimes it takes a, a, a wake-up call. And, um, I have to share for the, uh, scientists, uh, listening today, uh, the other wake-up call that came in... This was, this was, I don't know, a year and a half in, and I'm feeling good, you know, clearly lots more energy. But the thing that really, um, made me so interested that I actually shifted my research from study of memory, which is how I started my research career, to starting to explicitly study the effects of exercise, is I'll always remember I was sitting in my office and I was writing a grant. And so all the scientists out there know how, how excruciating it is to write a grant. This is your lifeblood, right? This says whether you're going to be, uh, uh, validated by your peers, or, you know, you, you, you're, you're not gonna be d- be able to do the science that you want. And I had this thought that came through my mind while I was writing this particular day in my office, and that thought was, "Gee, writing went well today." I had never had that thought, ever, in my entire career. It was... And then I thought, "Well, I'm just having a good day. I'm feeling really good." I did go to the gym, uh, that day. But no, I realized that my, my writing had gotten better, like it was flowing better. So that's when I realized that the only thing at this point that I had changed in my life was this exercise. It was a year and a half in. I'd gone through, you know, no movement to regular movement. And, uh, going back to the literature, I know it helps, uh, the functions of the hippocampus, important for memory, which you need when you're writing a grant, all those details of all the papers that you have to put together in your multimillion dollar grant proposal. And focus. To write, you need deep, continuous focus. I'm like, both of those things are better. That, I think, appears to be why my writing is getting better. So that was like, that hit home.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:21 Yeah.

Wendy Suzuki 11:21 That, y- your lifeblood, you're doing it better, and it seems like all these functions are, are coming because you're exercising. Wow. That, that is life-changing.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:31 Yeah.

Wendy Suzuki 11:31 That was a life-changing moment.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:33 Yeah, it's so interesting, that. You know, reflecting on what you've been saying so far, Wendy, it, it's fascinating to me that you were, at least from the outside, crushing life, right? You were successful. You're living in New York City. You are being made professor. You know, you're doing great research. You're teaching people. You're being invited for TED Talks. You know, the sort of thing that a lot of people would regard as, "Hey, that's what I want," you know? That's the sign of someone who's successful. Yet you've also said at the same time you were productive, you were successful, but you weren't happy, right? That's-

Wendy Suzuki 12:10 I wasn't happy, no

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:11 ... that, that's really interesting, 'cause I think there'll be a lot of people who can resonate with that. They are doing the things that- You know, they, they think they need to do, that society has told them they need to do

Wendy Suzuki 12:22 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:22 And, and it sounds like you were, you know, you ... Well, yeah, you were, you weren't just surviving. You know, in your work you were thriving, but in your, in your personal life, I know from, from your first book, H- Healthy Brain, Happy Life, you've been very, very open in that book about the struggles you had with relationships, and actually the fact that you never spent any time prioritizing those relationships. And it's, it's fascinating to me that just that one change, movement, which you now put into your morning routine-

Wendy Suzuki 12:53 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:54 ... is having all these kind of myriad benefits.

Wendy Suzuki 12:57 It is. It, and it's really interesting to analyze my own career kind of before and after this realization, particularly on the topic of creativity. So I was a very by the book scientist before this, this realization. I, I, I, I did my undergraduate. I went to graduate school. I got my PhD. I did a postdoc. And then I got, I got a faculty position. So that, that's all, you know, that's great. Uh, uh, that is successful, and, and I was thrilled to be here at NYU. Um, but al- always by the book. All my classes were by the book. But then, uh, and by the way, I want to clarify, the TED Talks came after the transition. I was not giving TED Talks be-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:44 Mm

Wendy Suzuki 13:44 ... that was part of the creativity. Um, so, so then this transformation happens. I realize that I was unhappy. I ended up going to the gym because of this, uh, Peru trip. And, um, one of the interesting things is that, uh, I, I think, um, everybody's motivation, part of every- everybody's motivation to move more regularly, besides that bubble ba- bath of neurochemicals that I told you about, is that one of the things that we know that exercise does is it releases a whole bunch of growth factors in the brain, and that goes directly to your hippocampus, which is important for memory, and literally helps new brain cells grow. So if you want shiny new brain cells in the part of your brain critical for long-term memory, that is your motivation to exercise. That is my personal motivation to exercise. But it turns out that the hippocampus doesn't only help us with memory, but it helps us put information in our memories together in new ways. In other words, it's important for imagination. And if you look at my teaching and my work and my career before and after this, what you'll see is after I started, uh, working out, what did I do? I created new courses like Can Exercise Change Your Brain, where I brought physical activity into the classroom. I literally got trained as an exercise instructor so I could make the whole class work out-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:14 Oh, I love it

Wendy Suzuki 15:14 ... with me before the class. And actually, that's because, uh, my department wouldn't pay for an exercise instructor. I was like, "Can you, can you hire an exercise instructor for me?" And they're like, "No. You, you teach the class." So I went and I got trained as an exercise instructor 'cause I was going to the gym all the time anyway. Did that. I made them, that class, my very first kind of clinical study. Uh, so I tested them before and after the semester of every week we would exercise together for an hour, and I compared them to another class that didn't, didn't exercise. I created, uh, Art Meets Brain, where I brought in all of my new friends that I made that were artists, and, um, dancers talked about their craft, and then we talked about the neuroscience of movement. I had a, um, a, a world-class cellist come in, uh, and, and go through the process of learning a new piece, and then I talked about, uh, again, a, a, a different version of motor learning. Um, so all sorts of artists and, and I just had the time of my life, and that's when I was creating my TED Talks and, and, um, kind of going outside of the classroom, 'cause I realized, oh my God, this, this information is so important. And while I love lecturing to my, um, you know, 120 students that I teach in my, in the regular class that I teach, um, everybody should know about this.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:34 Yeah.

Wendy Suzuki 16:35 And so that's, that's why I wrote the first book, Healthy Brain, Happy Life, and that's what got me the TED Talk.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:40 Yeah. It, it's, it's so inspiring to hear about your story. You know, I love your energy and your passion to, I guess, hammer home that, you know, this message that we've been hearing since we were kids that physical activity is important for our physical health, which I think we've all heard over and over again.

Wendy Suzuki 17:01 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:01 Your research and, you know, certainly your first book I think in many ways is just, it's expanding out our view of physical activity, going, no, no, it's not just for your physical health.

Wendy Suzuki 17:13 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:14 It makes you a better human, right?

Wendy Suzuki 17:16 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:16 It makes you more creative, more productive. It makes you happier, more motivation.

Wendy Suzuki 17:21 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:21 Helps you with memory. All these things. I think it's absolutely fantastic.

Wendy Suzuki 17:24 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:24 One point I just want to clarify. I know-

Wendy Suzuki 17:26 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:26 ... you do 30 minutes every morning, okay?

Wendy Suzuki 17:29 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:29 And some people will hear that and go, "I can't do it in the morning, Wendy."

Wendy Suzuki 17:35 Yeah. Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:35 You know, um, I, I've got, I've got kids. I'm busy. I don't think I can fit that in.

Wendy Suzuki 17:41 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:41 So the first point there was, is the time of day important? But related to that-

Wendy Suzuki 17:48 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:48 ... I know in, uh, Healthy Brain, Happy Life, there's lots of talk of four-minute hacks, right?

Wendy Suzuki 17:55 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:56 So the second part of that question is four minutes. What's so great about four minutes?

Wendy Suzuki 18:02 Yeah. So four minutes was really chosen, so at the end of every chapter in Healthy Brain, Happy Life are different hacks that you can do, uh, focused on the topic that was in that chapter. And we chose four minutes because it was doable And, um, it, it, frankly, it was a doable time period. We didn't wanna give you 30-minute activities because [laughs] nobody would try it ever. Uh, and so all these things are fun things just to get people in the groove of meditation, in the groove of creativity, in the groove of, of movement. And so, um, uh, but going back to, you know, what is that minimum or optimum exercise regimen? That's, that's the most popular question that people always ask me. You know, really, how little movement do I really need to do to get all that good stuff that you've been talking about? And so, um, the answer to that is simple. If you wanna get that good mood, we know that, uh, significant decreases in anxiety and depression levels, um, not clinical anxiety and depression, just, just our overall, you know, anxiety levels, can come with just 10 minutes of walking. That comes from the science. That is the kind of minimum amount that has been shown to have an effect. And I love... Usually, I start with that because, um, 30 minutes can be a little bit daunting, and it does not have to be in the morning. That's when, when I do it, I can do it. And so the first thing to say is that any time you can bring movement into your life is the perfect time to do it. And you don't have to run a marathon. You don't have to go to those scary classes. Walking, starting with walking, has a significant effect. Specifically, 10 minutes of walking can decrease those negative mood states and increase the positive mood states. So that's, uh, uh, um, I, I always like to start with that, that, uh, uh, doable, uh, uh, message that really anybody can bring into their day.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:07 Yeah. No, I love that. You've obviously found what works for you. You can do 30 minutes in the context of the rest of your life.

Wendy Suzuki 20:15 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:15 So you do it, right?

Wendy Suzuki 20:16 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:16 And you've experienced the benefits. One thing I've spoken about on this podcast for many years is that I do a five-minute strength workout-

Wendy Suzuki 20:25 Uh-huh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:25 ... every morning.

Wendy Suzuki 20:26 Uh-huh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:27 Like you, seven days a week because-

Wendy Suzuki 20:29 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:29 ... the workout has been created around my coffee consumption. So as-

Wendy Suzuki 20:34 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:34 ... my cafetière brews the coffee for five minutes, in those five minutes, instead of going on YouTube or Instagram or emails, I do a strength workout-

Wendy Suzuki 20:46 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:46 ... in my pajamas. And I always say that because-

Wendy Suzuki 20:49 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:49 ... the point is I've made-

Wendy Suzuki 20:50 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:50 ... it as easy as possible.

Wendy Suzuki 20:52 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:52 Uh, and I, I wrote a book about five-minute interventions, how powerful they can be. So that's why I'm so interested in this four-minute number because-

Wendy Suzuki 20:59 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:59 ... I think we've been conditioned, Wendy, to think that, oh, there's no point doing it if it's only four minutes-

Wendy Suzuki 21:06 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:06 ... or five minutes. Yet, I, I think I keep in really good shape from a five-minute-

Wendy Suzuki 21:11 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:11 ... strength workout-

Wendy Suzuki 21:12 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:12 ... seven days a week because it's so small that I can do it-

Wendy Suzuki 21:16 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:16 ... every, every day pretty much. And-

Wendy Suzuki 21:19 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:19 ... like I, like you, I'm very passionate to get the idea out there. I, I remember actually, Wendy, you know, I used to work in a GP practice.

Wendy Suzuki 21:25 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:26 Maybe... This specific practice, I'm, I'm gonna guess maybe eight, nine years ago.

Wendy Suzuki 21:32 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:32 And it... No, it was actually longer because it was before I had kids, right?

Wendy Suzuki 21:36 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:37 So there was life pre-kids and post-kids, right?

Wendy Suzuki 21:40 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:40 Before I had kids, I, I still loved getting up early, but I'd go to the gym at 6:30 in the morning on the way to my GP surgery.

Wendy Suzuki 21:49 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:49 And my colleague asked me, "How, how long do you do?" And I said, "Well, I don't have much time really." I think I did, I don't know, 15 minutes weights, maybe 15 minutes cardio, and then a bit of steam room, and then I'd get ready, shave, and I'd, I'd-

Wendy Suzuki 22:03 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:03 ... turn up to work.

Wendy Suzuki 22:04 Uh-huh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:05 And she said to me, "Yeah, but, you know, it's not enough really, is it? You know, I never go unless I can find time for an hour." And she-

Wendy Suzuki 22:12 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:12 ... for many reasons, was really struggling with various aspects of physical health and mental health. And I, I remember thinking, that's incredible, isn't it, that that person is not going to move because she thinks-

Wendy Suzuki 22:25 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:25 ... "I have to do an hour or it doesn't count." But as I've just shared and as that you just shared, even little bits make a difference. So-

Wendy Suzuki 22:33 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:33 ... 10 minutes can change your mood of walking.

Wendy Suzuki 22:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:35 Any other research to help people understand that you don't need to do that much?

Wendy Suzuki 22:41 Yeah. I mean, that's my best go-to kind of research because [laughs] like your colleague, a lot of the researchers look at minimum 30 minutes of, of workout, either for cardio health or, you know, exercise physiology or brain health. And so this is, this is a great one. The, the, the studies that have, um, confirmed that 10 minutes of walking can absolutely change your mood, it's consistent with, uh, the whole broad spectrum of, of work that says that that mood change is one of the most consistent, strongest effects of physical activity. Now, the hippocampal cells have been studied extensively in animal model systems, and we don't have a, you know, exact, you know, how much a day, for how long do you need to have that. However, the study that I love to highlight is a correlational study done in Swedish w- women. It was published in 2018, and it was a 44-year follow-up study. So in the 1960s, they went and looked at 300 women in Sweden and characterized them as low-fit, mid-fit, or high-fit, just what is your physiological level. Again, they were in their 40s. They did no intervention. They came back 44 years later and asked w- what was their status now that they're in their 80s. And it turns out that relative to the low-fit women, the high-fit, the women that were high-fit in their 40s, 1960, they staved off dementia by an extra nine years. Nine years. And so, so what does that mean? Well- I immediately go to, I know that regular exercise is increasing growth factors, which is increasing the number of hippocampal brain cells. That's not curing dementia, but it's making your hippocampus, as I like to say, big and fat and fluffy. That just takes longer for any disease to come in and damage it, and what does both normal aging and dementia do? It goes in and it attacks the hippocampus, which is why in dementia that that memory problem comes in early. So let's look at those high-fit women. What's happening? Th- they're staving off dementia by nine years. Now, as I'm sure you recognize and many of our science colleagues will recognize, that's not a causal relationship because it was just a correlational, uh, study. However, it is consistent with the s-science, the neuroscience that we understand about what regular long-term exercise can do particularly to the hippocampus and your memory function. Again, that, that study to do in a, a direct causal way is very, very, very difficult. But, uh, those studies that continue to come out, there are many studies that are in that same direction, um, cons- suggest that regular exercise, as much as you can do for as long as you can do during your lifetime, is helping your brain, particularly two areas that are sensitive to aging-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:50 Yeah

Wendy Suzuki 25:50 ... the hippocampus we just talked about and the prefrontal cortex, stave off those debilitating effects that can come with aging.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:59 You've mentioned growth factors a few times.

Wendy Suzuki 26:02 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:02 Um, I wonder if we could just dive into what exactly is going on here. Why is it, or how is it that exercise is giving us these incredible benefits?

Wendy Suzuki 26:12 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:12 You mentioned BDNF. Well, what exactly is BDNF, and what does it-

Wendy Suzuki 26:16 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:16 ... do in our brains?

Wendy Suzuki 26:17 Yeah. So BDNF is a growth factor that we know quite a bit about. Um, we know a lot about what it does in development. So as our brains as young, uh, uh, babies are growing, BDNF and lots of other growth factors are basically there to help make those new connections happen. They facilitate connection or synapse formation in the brain. And then, uh, what happens when we're adults? Well, in adulthood, it's also facilitating synapse, new synapse formation, which is happening all the time. You learn something new, there are changes in those connections in your brain, and BDNF plays a role. But in particular, this, um, so BDNF stands for brain-derived neurotrophic factor. All you need to know that, is that it's a growth factor, and it is essential in the hippocampus to help brand-new brain cells grow. There's only two areas in the human brain where brand-new brain cells grow in adulthood. Just two. They're not growing all over, all over the brain, just in two areas. One is the hippocampus, and the other is the olfactory bulb. But the hippocampus is the only place where exercise can stimulate the release of growth factors. Where does that come from? It seems to come from muscles in your body, from liver release, factors released in the liver, that then release BDNF that goes into the brain, that goes straight to your hippocampus and helps those brand-new brain cells grow. Exercise doesn't do that to the brain cells in the olfactory bulb. So this is, I mean, if w- there was gonna be one area that I, I could have that has bran- new brain cells, I want it to be my memory area, okay? I'm a little biased 'cause I studied memory for 25 years in my neuroscience career, and I love it, and it's so, you know, it's critical to our personal histories. It, it defines us as, as people. You don't realize, you know, where would you be without your own personal memories, your likes, your dislikes, the things that make you laugh like there's no tomorrow? All those things are stored in your memory, and that is because of this beautiful structure that we all have, one on the right, one on the left, that is our right and left hippocampi. That is the structure that we get to get brand-new brain cells in, and I've just given everybody the secret tool to do that. Move your body.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:50 Sorry to interrupt the conversation. We'll be back in just a moment. Now, to live a long and healthy life, it can be really helpful to understand what's going on inside your body. People age at different speeds, and the typical annual blood work doesn't properly evaluate your biological age, but InsideTracker does. InsideTracker is a truly personalized nutrition and performance system that's designed to extend your health span and slow down the aging process. InsideTracker uses your test results to give you personalized recommendations on things that you can actually control, like food, supplements, workouts, and other lifestyle choices. For a limited time, you can get 20% off the entire InsideTracker store. All you have to do is click on the link in the description box below and use the discount codes LIVEMORE. You know,

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:42 I love what you said about memory there in terms of what it does for us, what it gives us-

Wendy Suzuki 29:48 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:48 ... as humans. Because I think when a lot of us think about memory and not losing our memory-

Wendy Suzuki 29:58 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:59 ... I think many of us think about, "Now I, I need to be able to remember to do stuff. I need to remember where I put my keys," these kind of things. But what you're saying is that it goes far beyond that.

Wendy Suzuki 30:10 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:11 It's about our sense of who we are, our personal story. That's really profound, Wendy.

Wendy Suzuki 30:16 Yeah, it is, and it comes from years and years and years of studying- Patients who have the unfortunate event of having amnesia, which is their, usually their hippocampi get damaged. And so, um, the most famous, probably the most famous neurological patient that ever lived was an amnesic patient whose, um, initials were HM. We now, he passed away, uh, and we now know his name was Henry Molaison. And I grew up as a scientist learning about this, um, this patient who had severe, severe epilepsy, and he, epilepsy starting at seven years old that got worse and worse and worse into his 20s. So he couldn't go to school, he couldn't work, his epilepsy was so bad. And he went to a neurologist, and at that time they were doing experimental brain extractions, and they knew that taking out one hippocampus could help epilepsy. That's still done today. But what they did back there in the 1950s, they took out both of his hippocampi because his epilepsy was so bad, and it was experimental, and he agreed because the epilepsy was so bad. The good news was it cured the severity of his epilepsy. The horrible news is that it left him unable to form any new memories from that point in time until he died in his 80s. He was 27 years old, and then he became the most famous amnesic patient. I mean, the, nobody knew that the hippocampus was so important for memory before this patient. And so first they went out and they said, "Okay, nobody take out both hippocampi ever again. Look what happens." And then, of course, they went on to study him and realized that without your hippocampi, you can no longer form any new memories for facts and events, but he did maintain his memories from childhood. He remembered his mother, his father, his childhood friends, which meant that those memories kind of got processed through the hippocampus, they got stored presumably someplace else. Um, and he was still able to access them. He had his, uh, he, he learned language, so all of his language skills remained intact. In fact, he liked to do crossword puzzles up until the end of his life. But, but he could not form any new long-term memories. And he had the wherewithal to say that, you know, "Who am I without my memories?" He, he maintained i, his, his persona of 27 years old. And people always ask the neuroscientist who studied him, did he recognize himself? Because his 80, he, there's an 80-year-old face staring at him in the mirror. He only remembers his tw- 27-year-old face. And the answer was yes. He, he could, he could recognize himself gradually aging, um, in the mirror. But, but it makes you think about, you know, all the amazing things that the hippocampus does for us every single day in, in creating our reality every day.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:34 Yeah. So powerful. Um, so exercise helps us increase this growth factor, BDNF, which-

Wendy Suzuki 33:46 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:46 ... gets sprinkled on our hippocampus and helps us grow new nerve cells. And I guess-

Wendy Suzuki 33:52 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:52 ... in, in many ways, bulletproof it from future problems.

Wendy Suzuki 33:58 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:58 Not bulletproof, you know, make it less likely. Insulate it, maybe that's a better way. Um, there, there's other growth factors there as well, aren't there? I think-

Wendy Suzuki 34:05 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:06 ... well, what is LTP, long-term potentiation? Where are we at with our knowledge of that at the moment?

Wendy Suzuki 34:12 So [laughs] we studied this. Okay, so let me define what it is. Long-term potentiation is this physiological pattern of activity that people discovered in the hippocampus in the '70s, and by the '70s we understood the hippocampus is important for memory. So what kind of magical physiology is going on in the hippocampus so that it, it helps us make all these memories? And so LTP, it's basically a physiology trick. And so what you do is you can give a little stimulation and get a little response out of the hippocampus, in the synapses in the hippocampus. But then if you give a bigger, it's called a tetanic stimulation, which is high, higher frequency stimulation, then in the hippocampus, but not in many, many other brain areas, you increase the output of those synapses after this one higher frequency stimulation, and it stays changed for a very long time. And so that, that was touted for a long time as, ah, this is what memory looks like in the hippocampus, which is true and not true. It's very artificial. And now we're much more sophisticated about not just the physiology, but the molecular cascade of events that happens in these amazing hippocampal synapses, those connections between neurons in the hippocampus that do result in change after an experience. So I have the new experience of speaking to you this morning. I've never met you before. I, I, uh, I've never seen your face before, but now I will recognize you next time I'm walking down a London street, I suppose, and [laughs] I run across you. Um, that means that something... And if I do recognize you, something in my brain, something in my hippocampus is literally changing right now to help that memory form, uh, that will be there when I'm walking down that street-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:19 Wow

Wendy Suzuki 36:19 ... in London. That's, that's, th- that's LTP, and that's, that's the implication of what LTP is.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:27 A- and does exercise enhance LTP? So increase the positive effects of this? I mean, how, how does exercise play, play a role here?

Wendy Suzuki 36:37 Yeah. So exercise is doing many different things. Exercise is increasing the number of neurons in the hippocampus. Um, it is increasing LTP in those neurons. That has been shown. Um, but also interestingly, one of my favorite findings for hippocampal nerds, which I am, is that, um, it's been shown that those brand-new hippocampal neurons that are, that are born in adulthood, particularly w- you know, with exercise. You can give, for example, a rat lots of exercise, a running wheel to go on, and you can show that they have lots more new hippocampal cells than, than the rats that don't have the running wheel. Well, it turns out that those shiny new hippocampal cells are kind of like teenagers. They're really active, and they get involved in lots of things, and what do they get involved in? New memory circuits. So we're now sophisticated enough to learn ... to be able to see an activation of hippocampal cells in a particular memory circuit. And it turns out that those brand-new cells that are being formed with w- sprinkling BDNF on the hippocampus, those are more likely to get engaged in memory formation. So, um, that, that is consistent with the finding that if you give rats more exercise, they are better at a whole bunch of different spatial memory tasks than rats that are couch potato rats.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:00 Now, when you coming into this conversation that the hippocampus was your favorite area of the brain, I'm definitely getting a strong sense of why that is having been talking to you, you know.

Wendy Suzuki 38:11 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:11 So what did you call yourself? A hippocampus nerds? Uh, I-

Wendy Suzuki 38:14 Yeah, I'm totally a hippocampal nerd.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:16 Yeah, hippocampal nerd. I love that. I think that's a great phrase. Um, if we think about the hippocampus a- and, and how important it is, one of the things that we're seeing, even pre-pandemic stress was huge-

Wendy Suzuki 38:32 Yeah, absolutely

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:32 ... across the world to the point where, you know, it was called the health epidemic of the 21st century. This was four or five years ago.

Wendy Suzuki 38:39 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:40 And obviously, for many people, that has increased over the past couple of years or so. What does stress do to the brain, and in particular-

Wendy Suzuki 38:49 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:49 ... what does chronic unmanaged stress do to the hippocampus?

Wendy Suzuki 38:54 Yeah. So that's a great question. Um, the hippocampus, we've known for a long time, is particularly vulnerable to high levels of stress. And let me just go to the end phase. PTSD, somebody with PTSD, which is chronic, you know, unmanaged stress, high le- you know, military kind of, of stress for a long, long, long time. We've known for a long time that that results in smaller hippocampi- your, their hippocampus is smaller. Why is that? We know that as well. Many, many receptors, which are kind of the doors that, that bring particular chemicals in, there are receptors to cortisol, the stress hormone, lots of them in the hippocampus. So high levels of cortisol will have a big effect on hippocampal cells. And what is that effect? Well, unmanaged, it will start to first damage hippocampal cells, but then with unmanaged stress, it literally kills cells in, uh, the hippocampus, resulting in that, that physically smaller hippocampus. In fact-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:04 Yeah

Wendy Suzuki 40:04 ... uh, patients with PTSD have a smaller entire temporal lobe, and that is the cause of ... That is the result of long-term stress, and that's just on, only on your brain. It's causing havoc in your cardiovascular system, in your digestive system, in your reproductive system as well.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:22 Yeah.

Wendy Suzuki 40:23 Uh, so it's, it's bad news. A little bit of cortisol will kind of wake, wake the, uh, hippocampus up and make it work better. You, you remember those, those moments of, of, you know, a little bit of high stress. Um, somebody calls on you in class, and, ooh, oh yeah, I remember when Professor Suzuki called on me. However, if we go into a military long-term stress that is really activating the hippocampus, that starts to damage it. And the branches of the neurons, uh, will start to kind of prune away, get smaller, uh, receive less information. And eventually, high levels of cortisol will kill hippocampal cells.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:04 Yeah, I think there's a really important distinction there that, that you, you covered, that a little bit of stress, especially if we have time to rest and recover from it, it's good for us.

Wendy Suzuki 41:15 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:15 It's gonna help us perform better. And when I-

Wendy Suzuki 41:17 Absolutely

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:17 ... give talks, um, to companies to, to try and help them with wellbeing, a lot of the time I say, "Look, we're not trying to get rid of stress, right?"

Wendy Suzuki 41:25 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:25 A little bit of it, you know, if you come on stage to talk and you have a little bit of stress, if it's the right amount-

Wendy Suzuki 41:31 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:31 ... it's gonna help, as you're saying, your hippocampus work better, right?

Wendy Suzuki 41:34 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:34 It's gonna help you focus. And your memory, you're gonna pull things out of your memory that you, you maybe didn't have front of mind. It's when-

Wendy Suzuki 41:41 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:42 ... it goes on for too long, and it's too much that-

Wendy Suzuki 41:45 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:45 ... what started to help you in the short term now becomes very toxic and harmful.

Wendy Suzuki 41:50 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:50 In, in, in your view, Wendy, like I was talking to a lot of my colleagues about this as well, and we are seeing an increase in memory problems-

Wendy Suzuki 42:01 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:01 ... or certainly patients coming in complaining of memory problems, I would say these days, in our 30s and 40s.

Wendy Suzuki 42:08 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:08 Now, I know there's many possible causes for that. Of course, we can do blood tests. We can look for things like B12 and all sorts of things that may be playing a role.

Wendy Suzuki 42:17 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:17 But this is not really age-related dementia. My feeling, Wendy, for many years has been, is that stress has gone through the roof, and people are constantly switched on. They're always on their devices. They're staying late. They're not, they're not allowing their brains to switch off, and I feel this has impacted their memory. I'd love your perspective on that.

Wendy Suzuki 42:41 Yeah, I have exactly the same feeling. Here in the States, there was kind of the epidemic of brain fog. Everybody had more brain fog. They're staying home all the time. And actually, that and so many of the reports of increased anxiety is part of the reason why I wrote, uh, this book, Good Anxiety. I think, um, that uncertainty, the difference between that good stress that you were talking about when you go give a talk and, you know, that little, little boost, it's a little scary, right? You want your audience to listen to you, but you chose that talk. You, you have controlled anxiety. However, if you're in the middle of a pandemic, you have no health insurance, you don't know whether your, your boss can fire you tomorrow, that leads to uncontrolled anxiety. Lot and lot of uncertainty. And my simple definition of anxiety is, um, the fear and worry that comes with situations of anxiety, which, uh, everybody can immediately see why anxiety levels went through the w- roof during the pandemic. And I think those uncontrollable levels of anxiety, that always comes with stress. So stress is a physiological response that is created by part of our nervous system, or is, uh, uh, controlled by part of our nervous system called the sympathetic nervous system. It just gets, you know, released every time you get, you get an anxiety-provoking kind of situation, from an email to, uh, the news coming on. And that is releasing all the cortisol. It's increasing your heart rate, increasing your respiration rate, and shunting blood from your digestive and reproductive organs to your muscles. Now, we just talked about all the bad things that stress can do for your brain. Let's talk for just one second about what, uh, that stress and that, it's called the sympathetic fight or flight response. People have always heard of the fight or flight response. What does that do for your body? Well, imagine long-term increases in heart rate, cardiovascular disease. Long-term, um, uh, um, leaving of blood from your digestive system, ulcers. Long-term leaving of blood from your reproductive organs, reproductive problems. So I, I think all of these are kind of contributing to the, the, the, the new normal level that we're seeing. I'm not saying it's, it's not reversible. Uh, I'm just saying we know a lot, as you know, as a GP, o- of, of what stress can do to us, which really should motivate us even more-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:22 Yeah

Wendy Suzuki 45:22 ... to learn how to relax. And, and that's the good news, right? The answer is learn how to be kinder to yourself. Learn how to be kinder to others, because empathy is something that also increases dopamine in your brain, if you didn't know that. And so the message is a, is a good one. Even though it's not easy, uh, sometimes to see your way out of not looking at your devices, not stressing yourself with, with the news cycle, it is, it is absolutely possible, and your brain and your body will thank you for it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:57 Yeah. Um, re- really great explanation. We're gonna talk about anxiety in some detail. Before we do that, just going back to the hippocampus. Now, I'm conscious that a lot of people who are listening or watching this right now may be thinking, "Oh man, um, I've been under a period of chronic stress. Um, I've been killing it really hard. I've had brain fog. Oh no, are my brain cells in my hippocampus dying? Are they dead? What impact is that gonna have on me?" So I wanted to just double-check with you-

Wendy Suzuki 46:36 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:36 ... whether those cells can regenerate or whether, listen, or whether we can just take that optimistic view that, hey, listen, you can't change what's happened, but if you change what you do going forward, you can absolutely regenerate and create new nerve cells. So give us a little bit of hope there, Wendy, if you can.

Wendy Suzuki 46:55 Yeah. So yes, the answer is, there is hope, and that is why, um, I think I, I, I'm an optimistic person. I've studied what's called brain plasticity for my entire neuroscientific career. Brain plasticity says that the environment that you live in can actually change the connections of your brain, and they could change it in two ways. Certain experiences can up those brain cells, make your trees of your neurons big and, and, and, um, beautiful, and other experiences, chronic stress, chronic anxiety, can trim those, those branches and make your neurons smaller and sometimes even kill those neurons. It is a constant, uh, dynamic, and that's part of what makes the human brain literally the most complex structure known to humankind. It is so highly responsive to, to, to our environment, which gives us the power to change that environment to one that favors positive brain plasticity, growth of neur- neurons, and, and disfavors negative brain plasticity. So yes, your history does not define it. What you do today is what your brain is gonna be responding to.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:21 So if that neuron or nerve cell's getting smaller because of chronic stress, and you then make a change, can that same neuron get bigger again? Or is it simply-

Wendy Suzuki 48:31 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:31 ... a case... Yeah, the same one. Wow, that's, that's really empowering. But also new ones can be created as well.

Wendy Suzuki 48:37 Yes, in the hippocampus.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:39 In the hippocampus.

Wendy Suzuki 48:40 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:40 You've mentioned the prefrontal cortex-

Wendy Suzuki 48:43 Yes

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:43 ... a couple times during this conversation.

Wendy Suzuki 48:45 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:45 And I'm just thinking about, Wendy, a few years ago, I w- I wrote a book on stress, and I, I seem to recall reading some research that people who suffer from chronic work stress- ... have got a smaller dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, which in turn reduces their ability to self-regulate and make good decisions

Wendy Suzuki 49:06 Sure, sure. So the prefrontal cortex is, uh, another one of the many amazing areas of the human brain. Um, it basically does so much. The prefrontal cortex is, is large. You, you referred to, um, uh, uh, uh, one portion of the prefrontal cortex that we know a lot about. That particular area is important for what's called working memory, which is, um, uh, not the same as the long-term memory that the hippocampus is involved in, but it's your, um, moment-to-moment ability to remember, um, the conversation. So for me to remember that we are now on the topic of prefrontal cortex, we've finished the hippocampus for now, that is being processed by my prefrontal cortex. It is, um, it, [laughs] it is what keeps you in a conversation without, you know, embarrassing yourself and, and, or saying the wrong name to the person or all the other things that we all embarrass ourselves with every once in a while. That, that is called working memory or scratchpad memory. Um, uh, back in the old days, it used to, uh, people used to say that's the memory you needed to remember the phone number before, from the phone book before you actually called it. But of course, now we have no memory of that because it's all in our phones, uh, or in Google. Um, but, but it's, it- scratchpad memory is, is a good way to call it. And, um, it's, it really is part of our everyday life. And, um, it allows us to function normally at work, to go from one thing to another, to order our days appropriately. If you have damage in this area, very hard to bake. Why? Because you need order to bake. You can't, you know, put the eggs in first. You have to put the flour and the, you know, the dry ingredients first. So that kind of ordering is, uh, so important, uh, for the prefrontal cortex. And we also use it, I, actually, what I've studied most is the role of the prefrontal cortex to shift and focus our attention. Can you f- pay attention to th- this part of the spreadsheet, which is the top of co- of conversation, and filter out that other part even though you may know more about that other part? It's being able to do that, and I think we'll probably talk about meditation just a little bit. Uh, meditation is really, uh, an exercise of the prefrontal cortex-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:28 Sorry to interrupt. If you are enjoying this content, there's loads more just like it on my channel, so please do take a moment to press Subscribe, hit the notification bell. And now back to the conversation

Wendy Suzuki 51:39 ... to be able to say, "Actually, can I focus on my breath?" That is one of the simplest forms of meditation. Any yoga class you go to, focus on your breath. That ability to filter everything out, "Ooh, I like her outfit. Ooh, this, uh, mat isn't thick enough," no. You have to focus on your breath. That is a major function of the prefrontal cortex and helps to, helps us to understand why the practice of meditation goes far beyond the mat or the yoga mat, but it goes to everything that we're doing because it is strengthening a major function of our prefrontal cortex, our ability to specifically shift and focus our attention to where we choose, not where-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:28 Yeah

Wendy Suzuki 52:28 ... the environment chooses.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:30 And going back to, I think, what you said at the start, exercise helps the hippocampus, and it helps the prefrontal cortex.

Wendy Suzuki 52:39 You're right. Absolutely, it does. So exercise, uh, it, it has an immediate effect. One of the things that I've so- shown in m- in my lab is just one workout session we happen to do, 30 minutes, can improve your ability to shift and focus attention of the prefrontal cortex. And that effect lasts for at least two hours-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:00 Yeah

Wendy Suzuki 53:00 ... after, uh, after the workout.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:05 Regarding anxiety, a lot of people when they feel anxious turn to-

Wendy Suzuki 53:11 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:11 ... alcohol to help them-

Wendy Suzuki 53:13 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:13 ... alleviate that.

Wendy Suzuki 53:15 Sure.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:17 With respect to what we've been talking about-

Wendy Suzuki 53:20 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:20 ... let's say the hippocampus and, and, and I guess the wider brain, we've talked about the impact that long-term unmanaged stress has on our brains.

Wendy Suzuki 53:31 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:31 But long-term chronic alcohol intake can also be regarded as a stressor on the brain.

Wendy Suzuki 53:38 Sure.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:39 Are you able to give us a little outline as to what too much alcohol for too long does to those kind of-

Wendy Suzuki 53:45 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:45 ... structures in our brain?

Wendy Suzuki 53:46 Yeah. So I think, um, the, the easiest way to understand what alcohol is doing is to first step back and say there are two kinds of activation that you can get in your brain cells, a positive activation, more activity, um, uh, caused by what's called, um, excitatory neurotransmitters, which are those chemicals that, that, um, uh, help the communication or define the communication between brain cells, or inhibitory neurotransmitters that decrease that activity. Well, guess what? Alcohol is an, uh, um, is an inhibitory, acts as a inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brain. And so, um, what that does is lots of things. Uh, first think about, uh, pouring lots of i- inhibitory neurotransmitters over your brain for a long, long time. That is part of the effect that we're seeing with alcohol. But on a, um, kind of night-by-night basis, it might lull you into sleep quicker, which I think many people use. However, we also know that it is a significant good sleep disruptor, and that- ... is part of the long-term detrimental effects of alcohol on your brain. So I don't know if, if, uh, you've, uh, experienced this, where you might get drowsy if you had a little bit too much alcohol to drink, but the sleep that you get after that night of alcohol, uh, consumption, unless you're kind of blacked out, but, but just, like, a little bit more than usual, you're not... You don't get a very good night's sleep. And that sleep is so-- Sleep deprivation, I should say, is so detrimental to normal brain function. Sleep is so... I like to c- tell my undergraduates, "You know what happens when you deprive, um, people or animals of sleep for too long?" And they say, "Oh, they get, you know, cranky." They die. It is a physiological function. So, so long-term sleep deprivation, uh, uh, it causes death. Um, so it's that critical. And so those studies, uh, uh, helped me kind of get motivated to really, um, look at how to improve my sleep, and one of the things that is a common detriment to good sleep that really helps your brain regenerate and work best the next day is alcohol. Even a little bit of alcohol, um, can, can have those negative effects.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:30 Yeah. Do we know-- I mean, you just mentioned there just a little bit. Um, I know with alcohol it gets very hard to give guidance, and, you know, there are, there are sort of government guidance in terms of what sort of unit range people should stick to. Certainly here in the UK there are. Um, you're making the case, I guess, from that, that even one glass [laughs] of wine can have a detrimental impact on the brain.

Wendy Suzuki 56:59 Well, ev- One glass of wine will affect sleep, and that can-- It's not going to kill your brain cells, one glass of wine. But if you want to optimize that brain regeneration kind of mechanism that we all have at our disposal, you'll want to decrease that alcohol-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:20 Yeah

Wendy Suzuki 57:20 ... consumption.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:22 So moving to anxiety now. Anxiety is on the rise. Now, I can see on the shelf behind you that you've got this beautiful red cover. It's called Good Anxiety. I think in the UK it was released, uh, with the title Anxiety is Your Superpower. Are you fam-

Wendy Suzuki 57:36 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:36 Yeah, so-

Wendy Suzuki 57:37 Ah, it was

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:38 ... wanted to make that super clear depending on who's listening to this where in case they wanna get hold of it.

Wendy Suzuki 57:43 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:43 Um, one of the really interesting things I felt about this book is that you call anxiety protective-

Wendy Suzuki 57:54 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:54 ... and you also call it a powerful self-help tool.

Wendy Suzuki 57:58 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:59 Now, most people who suffer with anxiety don't think that it's protective. They don't want to have it. They don't want to feel like that. They certainly don't call it a powerful self-help tool.

Wendy Suzuki 58:10 Of course.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:10 So I wonder if you could elaborate, Wendy, in terms of what exactly you meant by that.

Wendy Suzuki 58:16 Yeah. So the reason why we, uh, called the book in the UK Anxiety is Your Superpower and in the US Good Anxiety, so, so people would look at it and think, "What? W- what could she be talking about?" And so here's what I mean by anxiety is your superpower. Anxiety, evolutionarily speaking, anxiety and that underlying physiological stress response that we spent so much time talking about, uh, uh, over the last hour, um, evolved to protect us, okay? So, so that, that is truly the, the reason why it evolved. Um, now we're talking 2.5 million years ago when those stresses came from physical danger, the lion, the tiger, the bear. When, uh, somebody walking around trying to gather food hears the crack of that twig, what would happen? Ooh, anxiety. That could be a bear or a lion to kill me. That releases the stress response, and what does the stress response do? It increases your heart rate. It shunts blood to your muscles, so you can either fight the lion or run away. Perfect mechanism. It is why we are here today. Unfortunately, that mechanism has not evolved with our evolving culture. And so while I have not been attacked by many lions or tigers or b- some, some rats here in New York, but no lions and tigers and bears, I do get anxiety-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:40 Mm

Wendy Suzuki 59:40 ... through lots of different mechanisms. Every time the email, the text comes in, oh, God, what is that? Um, the, the, the news cycles, social media are, are, are real causes of anxiety that still release that stress response. And, um, it's, it's got us to the situation that we were just talking about, brain fog, high levels of, of anxiety. And so, um, everybody's saying, "Okay, well, you just answered your own question. It's not helpful, right?" And my answer is, yes, it is helpful because at the core, anxiety is protective, and what this book does is shows us all how to get to that protective level of anxiety, and the first step is to turn the volume down. So absolutely, I'm with everybody. Our anxiety levels are too high. I'm not saying that this level of anxiety, high level, kind of uncontrolled, is good. We have to get to that controlled level. As you were-- pointed out, your beautiful example of giving a talk, that is good anxiety. That, that propels you to give a better talk than if you were in the weekend Netflix kind of level of, of activity. You would do a terrible talk if you were at that level. No, you need that little fear. You need a little bit of anxiety, I, I do too, to give the best talk that I could give. That's what we're looking for, and that's what my book outlines and, and shows us how anxiety can bring us gifts or superpowers in many parts of our life.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:21 Anxiety, as you say, at its core, i- is there to protect us. I think-

Wendy Suzuki 1:01:27 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:28 ... you know, through the lens of that wild predator 2.5 million years ago, that feeling of anxiety would result in us taking some kind of action.

Wendy Suzuki 1:01:40 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:41 So looking at it through that lens, the same response is happening for many of us now to our email inbox or the state-

Wendy Suzuki 1:01:49 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:49 ... of our lives or our to-do lists. First of all, is it accurate to say that it's the same response, like the body literally cannot tell the difference whether it's a lion or 42 emails you've got to reply to, okay? Is that, first of all, accurate? A- a- and secondly, in terms of, you know, creating this feeling that causes us to take action-

Wendy Suzuki 1:02:16 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:16 ... as I sort of briefly touched on already, some of the actions that we tend to take to try and change our state or not feel that anxiety are alcohol-

Wendy Suzuki 1:02:29 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:30 ... sugar, food, whatever it might be.

Wendy Suzuki 1:02:33 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:33 So-

Wendy Suzuki 1:02:33 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:34 ... you know, so, so what can people do about that?

Wendy Suzuki 1:02:36 Okay. So let me tackle the accuracy question first, and that's a great one. So like, like 2.5 million years ago, there could be a, um, a certain stress response to, um, a fox versus a lion. I think I would be a little bit afraid of a fox and a lot afraid of a lion. So, so there was that gradation in 2.5 million years ago. Today also, I mean, a little text when I'm, uh, looking forward to a friend responding back, that, that might, might not stress me out, but, um, 42 emails coming in first thing Monday morning, that, that could stress me out, or that, um, uh, uh, that, that unexpected Zoom request from your boss that comes, you know, Sunday night. That, that, that could also really stress me out. So just like the, the fox versus the lion, we have different gradations of stress response. So it does, it does work, uh, i- in a very similar manner. And what you outlined about the action orientation of that original stress response is beautiful because you've just outlined the rationale for, um, the superpower of stress that I always like to start with, which is, did you realize that one of your superpowers, because you and everybody else has this emotion of anxiety, is that it comes with a superpower of productivity? Let me explain how that works. So this comes with a very common form of anxiety, which is that what if list. What if the boss emailed me at Sunday night to ask for a Zoom meeting because, uh, she wants to fire me? Uh, she hates my work. She hates me. She, she hates everything about what I've been doing on this new project. That what if list is a very common form of anxiety. But the other thing to note is that that what if list is revolving around things that you care about. I don't have what if lists about how many shows on Netflix I've watched or not watched. I have what if lists about, about my work, about the meetings coming up that are more difficult or more easy. These what if lists are showing you what is valuable for you, what you care about in your life. That's the first thing to notice. The second thing is, what am I gonna do about it? The what are you gonna do about it is you're going to shift your what if list into a to-do list. You're gonna put the action on it as you just identified as, as that kind of fundamental response to that anxiety-provoking activity 2.5 million years ago. So what are you going to do? Well, you can't do anything late at night if that... Well, let's say the, the email comes in from your boss first thing in the morning. Um, what can you do? Uh, you, uh, you're worried about, you know, um, uh, your productivity at work. Uh, go ask three people about, about how they think you're doing. Ask, uh, advice a- a- about things. Two, go to your coaches, go to your advisors about this. Um, three, [laughs] go to your friends. Talk through the anxiety with somebody that cares about you, cares, cares about, um, what you're doing. Take action on each one of those things that come up in your to-do list, and that will help relieve that anxiety because you are... a- and actually help prepare for that meeting that you're gonna have to have anyway. It is making your anxiety and acknowledging your anxiety as something that is, um, centered around things you care about and taking action on that. So that is the superpower productivity that comes from your anxiety.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:28 Yeah, I think that's a very powerful idea. It speaks to that kind of central point you make, that anxiety is protective-

Wendy Suzuki 1:06:35 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:35 ... because i- it's really there to give us a message, isn't it?

Wendy Suzuki 1:06:43 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:43 It's, you know, the message 2 million years ago is you need to run now. You need to-

Wendy Suzuki 1:06:47 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:47 ... move your tribe and-

Wendy Suzuki 1:06:50 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:50 ... your things.

Wendy Suzuki 1:06:51 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:52 And instead of maybe looking at it as a problem, although I understand the temptation and I understand why people would think that, this is basically saying, well, one way you might wanna look at this is go, "Well, what is this teaching me? What is this telling me about the state of my life or the particular thing I'm anxious about?" Instead of trying to shun it away, as you say, turn that what if list i- into a to-do list.

Wendy Suzuki 1:07:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:17 So, so in, in some ways, you're really asking people to- reframe their anxiety, aren't you?

Wendy Suzuki 1:07:24 Yes. Yes. And that's another big topic in this book, which is the power of mindset in addressing your anxiety. In fact, I also call it a superpower of anxiety. Um, this comes not, not just from me, but lots of psychologists that have looked at approaches to anxiety. Can you look at the, at the thing that's making you anxious in a different way? Let me start with one that is in my history a lot. Um, uh, I- while I'm a speaker now, I was a very ch- shy young child, and... But I was really interested in, in my classes, and I had this battle, like every time I wanted to ask a question, "Oh, you know, I wanna ask it, but, but I'm gonna look stupid and, and then they're gonna think I'm stupid if I ask this question." Just, just that, that battle for years and years and years. And, um, um, what I would say to my younger self is, "Ask yourself, um, why you're there in that classroom. What if I give you the job of asking at least two questions in class? Not about, you know, whether you're gonna make a, a right answer or a wrong answer, but that's your job in, um, what you bring to being in this classroom. That, that is part of your responsibility." So it goes from, "Oh, I don't know whether I should ask that question," to, "Oh, I'm assigned to ask two questions that are of interest to me as part of my kind of contract in being in this class," which is what I tell my students, uh, in my own class. And so it really switches the narrative. It switches your, your mindset from, "I'm putting myself out there on the line to be ridiculed by everybody," which was my mindset, to, "Oh, I have to, I have to, I have a job to do in this classroom. This is part of my responsibility." And of course, you know, not being ridiculed [laughs] and not being made fun of. As a, as a teacher, of course I don't, I don't do that. But, but it really is powerful, um, the belief system that you go in with, and that is something that can be addressed and modified in so many different situations of anxiety.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:42 Yeah. You know, reframing that anxiety, it, it, it is the... It, it's so powerful, isn't it? Because ultimately, if you don't reframe it, if you think, "Why am I feeling like this? I don't like this. I want this to go away," A, you've lost a bit of agency over what's happening.

Wendy Suzuki 1:10:06 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:06 B, you think there's something wrong with you.

Wendy Suzuki 1:10:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:09 And I think certainly what I do with my patients, very similar ideas to, to what you've been writing about in, in, in your latest book, which is, you know, the anxiety's trying to help you. Let, let's try and figure out what the message is-

Wendy Suzuki 1:10:24 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:24 ... behind it. You don't wanna get rid of it necessarily. Let's... It's a signal, right? It's a signal to learn from.

Wendy Suzuki 1:10:30 It is. Yeah, exactly. It is learning. And you can say that for any uncomfortable emotion. All these uncomfortable emotions were not just, uh, invented to annoy you in your life. And sadness, anger, anxiety, all of them, they're all warning systems. And my favorite way that a very smart friend of mine, Desi Levinson, has, has taught me to think about it and, and talk about it, is instead of anxiety as this big, you know, heavy weight that's, uh, around your neck and weighing you down, what if you think of it as a little kid that's just going, "Hey, hey. Over here. Project over here. Needs some attention."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:12 Mm.

Wendy Suzuki 1:11:12 And just completely shifting that, that, you know, heavy, "Oh, God, why? Why me?" to, "Oh, yes-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:20 Yeah

Wendy Suzuki 1:11:20 ... that project is very important to me. That's just a m- reminder." It's still a uncomfortable emotion. I'm not getting rid of it. And don't believe anybody that tells you they're gonna get rid of all your uncomfortable emotions, because that is unhuman. Um, but, but, um, reframing it to something that, that can direct you more, more clearly to that thing that is important to you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:46 Yeah. And, and tying this back to exercise, of course, is gonna help here, right? Not necessarily with reframing, although it may help you see the world differently after your workout.

Wendy Suzuki 1:11:58 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:58 But going back on that evolutionary level, the anxiety often is there to encourage you to move [laughs] to run, to hide, to get away from danger. Yet-

Wendy Suzuki 1:12:11 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:11 ... of course, these days a lot of the anxiety is coming down while we're sat on our bums looking at a computer screen.

Wendy Suzuki 1:12:18 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:18 So what is the relationship between exercise and anxiety?

Wendy Suzuki 1:12:23 So that is a great question. I mean, the, there is a direct relationship between exercise and anxiety, and it goes back to that, um, 10 minutes of walking.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:34 Mm.

Wendy Suzuki 1:12:34 Uh, only 10 minutes of walking can have an immediate positive effect on anxiety levels. That is, it will decrease your anxiety levels. And the reason for that is what we talked about, what we started with, that wonderful bubble bath of neurochemicals. By moving your body for 10 minutes, walking, you are releasing serotonin, dopamine, noradrenaline. By the way, these are the things that are in common antidepressants. Uh, you get it for free just by walking-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:03 [laughs]

Wendy Suzuki 1:13:04 ... uh, inside or outside, up the steps or down the hall. Uh, it comes with that. And so good anxiety is not just Healthy Brain, Happy Life about anxiety. Uh, I go into lots of different areas. But of course, I can talk a lot about the powerful direct effects of just 10 minutes of walking-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:24 Mm

Wendy Suzuki 1:13:24 ... on modulating that mood state, which is something that everybody needs to know about, but more importantly, to do.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:31 Yeah. In, in your book on anxiety, you also t- talk about resilience and the-

Wendy Suzuki 1:13:35 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:36 ... seven characteristics Um, one of those from recollection is about having an optimistic outlook, which is something you've already said that you have.

Wendy Suzuki 1:13:46 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:47 And what, what I love about what you're saying is that an optimistic outlook is something that you can work on and cultivate for yourself. It's not something that's necessarily given to you. You can create it and practice it.

Wendy Suzuki 1:13:59 Right. Right. It is, and it goes back to mindset. Do I have a negative mindset that everything is gonna go bad, or do I have a belief system that says that if I work on my regular exercise that, that I will get better, I will get stronger. If I create positive relationships in my life, it will just grow and expand. So, uh, sometimes it's helpful to have a coach or a guide to get you started-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:29 Yeah

Wendy Suzuki 1:14:29 ... if you're, you're, you're having a hard time doing that. But I'll tell you, once you get into it, it gets even more powerful because you see what works for yourself, and you can create those mindsets for your own self and kind of create this, this, uh, wonderful life environment that is good for your brain and your body.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:50 Yeah, I mean, there's so many tips on anxiety i- in the latest book, which I think is gonna be so helpful for people who are, who are struggling, you know, in terms of reframing it, looking at it a different way, looking at it as a superpower, right?

Wendy Suzuki 1:15:04 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:04 I think people are gonna really, really get a lot of value from that. You mentioned meditation briefly before.

Wendy Suzuki 1:15:10 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:11 Uh,

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:11 and I know a longer tea meditation is part of your morning routine, but you've also done some research, haven't you, that 10 minutes of meditation can have profound effects on us. So I wonder if you could talk us through what does the research currently say about meditation, and why should we consider doing it? And if you can also touch on music. I know there's a little section in, in your first book on the benefit of music for our brain.

Wendy Suzuki 1:15:37 Sure. So meditation, there is a growing, uh, literature on the beneficial effects of, of meditation on the brain, what changes in your brain from meditation. My favorite meditation studies were done in collaboration with the Dalai Lama on some of his Tibetan Buddhist monks who, um, they, they measured their brain activation with, um, um, a measurement called EEG. Uh, and, and they showed that even at rest these monks were very, very different than non-monk controls. Uh, and that when they were a- monks were asked to meditate, uh, I, I always love to quote from this study, that the, there, there's a particular frequency called gamma that you can measure in EEG, the, uh, electroencephalogram, and their level of gamma, it says in the paper, went up so high, never seen in non-pathological situations. But they were just meditating. There was nothing wrong with their brain. They had practice, and these monks had had, you know, tens of thousands of hours of meditation practice. That just shows that at the extreme, meditation can change your brain. It is an example of positive brain plasticity. And while my brain is probably not like the, the monks' meditation, I do practice this. And, um, what I found and what has been confirmed in many studies is that meditation also has benefits on your mood, decreasing negative mood states like anxiety and depression, increasing positive mood states like optimism. It also can improve your focus and attention, like exercise. So it's very interesting that, that an activity that is so quiet and an activity that makes you move around all the time has similar beneficial effects. And you might ask, well, Wendy, what's going on there? And my answer is, well, we don't know all the mechanisms. Uh, I suspect that there are different mechanisms resulting in the same behavioral output. Better mood, overall better mental health status, and better prefrontal function, 'cause the prefrontal cortex function seems to be very, very amenable to both exercise, moving your body, and meditation. And my, um, my morning ritual is, comes after years of trying, like, I wanna meditate, I should, I feel like I should meditate, and then I fail. I've tried everything. Oprah, Deepak, they... I tried them all. And then I did it for a little while, and then I failed. I don't know if you can, uh, uh, relate to that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:14 Yeah.

Wendy Suzuki 1:18:15 But I, I finally found this situation, it's called the tea meditation, which is meditation over the brewing and drinking of tea that, that the UK culture will, will appreciate. Uh, but no phone, no paper, just, just, just waiting and meditation during the brewing, during the pouring, during the drinking, and starting over. That ritual s- got me to stay in meditation for longer than ever, than I ever had, and has kept me coming back. Um, I learned it on my birthday, uh, seven years ago, and ever since I learned it, I've done it with my exercise every morning before, before the exercise.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:00 Oh.

Wendy Suzuki 1:19:00 And, um, and I'll end with music. And so music, uh, my favorite study, uh, neuroscience study of music, um, asked people to come in with their favorite musical piece, that piece that gives them goosebumps every single time they listen to it, and they were scanned in a, um, MRI scanner while being pl- played that piece of music that was different for everybody that gives them goosebumps. And, um, the response was a huge activation in part of the reward areas of the brain. The same reward area, uh, despite the different music and the different people. And the bottom line there is that music is something that is very, very rewarding for the brain. And so as we're searching for things that will decrease our anxiety and increase our happiness, find that piece of music that gives you goosebumps and simply listen to it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:02 Yeah, Wendy, I love it. Your enthusiasm is infectious. Your research has been life-changing for, for many of us all around the world. These two books you've written are absolutely fantastic. Wendy, this podcast is called Feel Better, Live More. When we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our lives. And-

Wendy Suzuki 1:20:24 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:24 ... just right here at the end of our conversation, for someone who's listening and who's feeling inspired by what you've had to say, but is also thinking, "Yeah, but life's, you know, not great. I've got all kinds of stresses in my life. Um, I feel anxious. I can't see a way out of here."

Wendy Suzuki 1:20:45 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:46 What would you say to them?

Wendy Suzuki 1:20:48 I would say there is a way out, and start small. Can you walk for 10 minutes? Try walking when a moment of anxiety comes in. Try doing a short breath meditation. Uh, and, and if you can't find one, go to YouTube. They're free, and they have millions and millions of likes. You can start small, but there are tried and true scientifically based ways to decrease your anxiety and improve your mood state, and this podcast, books like my books, will help you find those things. And do it in bite-sized pieces, and everybody can benefit. This is, this is what works, and there is hope, and just give it a try.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:32 Professor Wendy Suzuki, thanks for coming on the show.

Wendy Suzuki 1:21:35 Thank you so much.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:36 If you enjoyed that conversation, I think you are going to really enjoy this one with Professor Andrew Huberman.

Speaker 1:21:42 Digestive issues, mental focus issues, depression, anxiety, exacerbation of every major psychiatric disorder from OCD to ADHD is closely associated with disruptions in circadian clock function. The foundational practice that I truly believe every person should do every day is-