Neuroscientist: This Is How You Manifest Your Dream Life Before 2025! | Tara Swart

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:00 So Tara, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Tara Swart 0:02 Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. This is on my vision board.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:05 Oh my God. Fantastic. Well, that's something we're gonna talk about, uh, no doubt during the course of this conversation. But look, I've got my copy of The Source here. As you can see, there's lots of, um, you know... I've sort of folded over loads of pages. I hope you don't feel I've destroyed your book. Um, but that's, that's a sign of a well-used book. There's lots in this I like. And, you know, you've got very unique qualifications. You are, you know, you used to be a medical doctor. Well, I guess you still are technically a medical doctor. You're a neuroscientist. You're an author, but you also teach at the business school in MIT. That is quite a, um, quite a variety of different things you do. Can you tell me how you got to this point in your life?

Dr. Tara Swart 0:43 Mm-hmm. So I went to medical school when I was 18, and, um, I thought I wanted to be a neurologist, so I went off and did a PhD in neuroscience between the preclinical and the clinical. When I came back, um, and went to the clinical school, I found that psychiatry was just much more interesting to me. It was about how people think, how their moods change, how our brains can trick us into thinking we're hearing voices when they're not there. Um, so I decided to specialize as a psychiatrist. I did that for seven years, and then 10 years ago, I had made a decision over a few years to move across to executive coaching. So I started up my little consultancy, which is based on neuroscience. So it's helping people to use their brain better to get more out of themselves and other people, um, in business.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33 Wow, some journey. Um, I have been, you know, literally absorbed in your book, The Source, since... Well, I was gonna say since it came out, but actually I was very lucky to be sent an advanced copy. Um, and there's so many things that I like about it. So I talk a lot about health and wellbeing and, you know, we often talk about food and exercise and sleep, uh, and stress, which of course are all very, very important. But, but what I really like about your approach is that you, you talk a lot about how important our thoughts are, how important our mind is, and I don't feel that that gets enough air time when we talk about health and wellbeing. Why is it that our thoughts are so important?

Dr. Tara Swart 2:17 So I actually think that the pillars that you talk about, like sleep, diet, exercise, mindfulness, um, they're important to improve the quality of our thoughts. 'Cause if you actually think about it, w- why are you doing those things? You're not just doing it so that your body is in good shape. You're doing it so that you can think more clearly, you can do your job better, you can have better relationships. Um, and all of that really boils down to how you think. Um, so all the physical factors put your brain in good condition, and then it's what you do with it that really counts.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:52 Yeah. I guess it's, um... It, it works both ways, doesn't it? Because I guess, you know, paying attention to these physical factors helps your brain function, helps you think more clearly. But at the same time, I guess if you change your mindset and you work on your thoughts, it can make it easier to actually do a lot of these physical things we're talking about.

Dr. Tara Swart 3:12 Absolutely. I mean, one of the chapters in the book is about that brain-body connection. So I think because psychology was around for a long time before we could scan brains and bodies, it left us with this sort of idea that there's a cutoff at the neck, and that what you think and feel isn't connected to what goes on in your body, and vice versa. But absolutely, if you're cold or hungry or tired, it affects the quality of thinking, and if you're confident or anxious, it affects the nerves and hormones in your body.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:39 Yeah, absolutely. And I think this whole brain-body connection that you do beautifully talk about in the book, um, is so important. And I guess for me, it's something that's really been missing in my medical training. It's, it's something that I think has been missing for a long time in medicine, particularly 20th century medicine, the way we've, you know, the, the way medicine really, really evolved to do so many great things, but I think we've lost, lost the idea that, that really, I guess, people have known for, for donkey's years. Was that one of your frustrations with medicine?

Dr. Tara Swart 4:13 I heard you speaking about that on another one of your podcasts, and I... It absolutely resonated with me. I was almost relieved to hear you say it, feel like I'm not the only one. And you'll notice that I sort of started the book by talking about how we evolved, and the fact that once we developed this cortex, which is much more, you know, a modern part of the brain that we use for articulated speech and for predicting and planning for the future. The part of the brain that had got us to that point, the in- intuitive emotional part of the brain, sort of seemed to be downgraded by society. You know, like logic and, um, being able to speak suddenly became important, and gut feeling and emotions just became less important.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:54 Yeah. I, I, I totally agree that there, there is that societal narrative, isn't it? Isn't, isn't there? That, you know, logic is, um, logic is key, and intuition sort of gets marginalized, and feelings get marginalized. Um, what I think you've done so well, and obviously y- you're, you're very well-trained. You know, huge, um, huge scientific background. You have brought some of these ideas that have been there before to life, but you've got some scientific grounding

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:25 in them now. And, and one of your, you know, I guess one of your core concepts is, how do we create the life that we want? How do we be in charge of, uh, what happens to l- you know, what happens to our life rather than let life sort of happen to us? Um, is that something you've... Is that something you feel you've, you've always had an incline towards, or is this something that has really evolved in your thinking in the past few years?

Dr. Tara Swart 5:51 Well, it's, it's funny you should say that because as I look back now, it feels like a lot of the concepts in the book were always there in the way that I lived my life. But even since writing the book, I've come up with this new analogy, which is, let's say you and I want to go on a journey Would you rather be sitting in the passenger seat and I choose where we go and the route that we take, or would you rather be driving and choosing the destination? It's kind of like that in life. It's very easy to go through the motions every day and let life happen to you. But if you think about it, if we stop and step back, we have a lot more choice in what we tolerate and what happens to us and the choices that we make, um, than we necessarily think, 'cause it's easy to just sort of go on autopilot.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:34 Uh, and I think that's something that, that really does happen these days, doesn't it? We, many people are living life on a treadmill, day to day, week to week. Before you know, another year's gone by. A- and, and I think one of the issues is that people don't have time. They don't, they don't feel that they can actually, um, you know, separate off some time where they l- reflect internally, they reflect on, on their own life and their journey, is just sort of something I, I know, um, I've talked about this a little bit before. I've certainly written about it, that, um, I mean, we're recording this podcast just, I mean, yesterday was six years, um, to the day since my dad passed away. And, um, you know, that, that was a, 'cause I, I used to care for my dad, um, for, for a long period of time. That's why I moved back to the northwest to help my mom and my brother care for Dad. And what's really interesting is since my dad died, um, I suddenly had a lot of time. All that time that I would spend caring and, and trying to look after the family, I would think. I would reflect, I would reflect on his life. I would reflect on my, my upbringing. And it really helped me understand, wait a minute, you know, am I living the life that I want to live? And actually, you can literally mirror my happiness, um, the things that have gone well in my career, literally since the moment my dad died. And it's, it's a real clash for me. On one hand, I wish my dad was still here, but on the other hand, if Dad was still here, I don't think I'd be doing any of the things that I'm doing currently because I would be too busy. Um, I don't know how that sounds to you at all.

Dr. Tara Swart 8:03 So that sounds to me like, you know, he, he lives on through having given you this gift, which is the new life that you've chosen for yourself. And I feel exactly the same, that, you know, I wish I'd never got divorced, but it was at that exact time that I thought, "Okay, something's happened to me that I hadn't factored in. Now what do I do with my life?" And it was the absolute turning point of then choosing my career, where I lived, what I wanted to do, who I wanted in my life. Um, and, you know, it's ended up with me writing this book.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:33 Yeah, well I guess that's, that's quite empowering for people, isn't it? Instead of looking at something, you know, and maybe if we, we've got time, we'll explore what, you know, how the divorce changed you. Um, but you know, being, you know, getting divorced for many is, you know, it's clearly, um, can be a very traumatic, um, episode in, in one's life. It can cause a lot of negative feelings, a lot of frustration. Lots of kind of things can happen that can actually, unless they're turned into being a positive, unless that is used as a, as a sign to say, "Hey, look,

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:04 what can I learn about this? How can I move on from this?" Um, often people can go in a downward spiral. So look, there's j- there's so much we can talk about. I wanna really get, get into the meat of this book, which, which is really good. Um, it's called The Source. What is the source?

Dr. Tara Swart 9:19 Okay, so the source is your fully integrated brain power. So we've touched on it by saying logic is, you know, really key in society, and emotions and intuition may be less valued. Well, the source is having, is basically mastering your emotions, knowing your body and listening to messages from your body, trusting your gut, which is your intuition, making good decisions, which is your logic, which is super important, staying motivated and resilient to achieve your goals, and then really taking on that ownership of creating your life. So it's six ways of thinking, um, and it's about doing all of those. Not sort of, you know, thinking, "Well, I'm very logical, so I'll mostly rely on just making good decisions, and I'll neglect the fact that I may get burnt out or that I may lose sight of what I really want in life." It's about keeping all six of those sort of fires burning at the same time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:13 I mean, it sounds, it sounds wonderful. Um, is it achievable for people?

Dr. Tara Swart 10:20 I think that if you don't know that those are the key six ways of thinking, then you're unlikely to sort of suddenly find out and, and create this idea for yourself. But I've laid it, laid it out almost like a map. And so now I think people can sit down and think, "Okay, how much do I listen to my body? How, how much do I trust my intuition? Do I sometimes, you know, l- lose it with my emotions, and what could I do about that?" And sort of just work through the six. And I've, you know, worked successfully with business people over the last 10 years going through those six ways of thinking, and of course, I've done it myself. And, you know, literally, if I have a sort of an acute problem at hand, I think, "Okay, what's going on emotionally? What's my body telling me?" And I work through the six, and now it's become more natural.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:06 Yeah, absolutely. Uh, right at the start of the book, um, there was this section, um, where you, you, you outline a series of questions. Um, if you find yourself nodding your head, this book is for you, and I thought it was brilliant. Uh, I, I won't read them all out, but some of these statements are, for example, "I feel stuck in an unhappy long-term relationship and can't see a way out." That's something very, very common that I see in my practice. Uh, "I feel desperate to meet someone so that I'm not the last childless person in my group of friends." God, I've got so many people I know who feel like that. Um, you know, "I agonize over what decisions to make. I've never asked for a pay rise or promotion. My work bores me, but it pays the bills." You could be describing, um, you know, maybe 80% of the people that walk through my door as a GP. So I think, you know, in, in many ways, what you're saying is if, if you resonate with those statements, which I think many people will, the book is for them. Um, so if someone has nodded their head to one of those statements, they think, "Okay, fine, I'm interested," you know, what are the practical steps that they can take? What, how do they start doing this?

Dr. Tara Swart 12:14 Okay. So the book is really practical. In fact, the last four chapters are all totally practical exercises. They involve some meditations and sort of visualizations. But throughout the book, I ask people to start journaling. So you know how you talked about that time to step back and reflect? It can seem like a really big sacrifice to think, "Okay, I'll take a weekend or a week or a month to reflect on my life." But if you start journaling for a few minutes each day, I found that looking back over that and reading it was just so insightful. I could see where I was repeating the same patterns. Um, I could see what happened when I was feeling really confident and happy, and how different that was to when I was feeling a bit down and uncertain of the future. And that helped me massively. Um, so I think if people read the book, start the journaling, um, absolutely do a vision board, and we can talk about the science. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:06 Definitely gonna talk about the vision board, for sure.

Dr. Tara Swart 13:09 Um, with things like that, you know, it was really important for me to ma- make the science around it really clear so that it's not just another nice thing to do. It's, it's, you understand why you're doing it and how it can change your life. Um, and then as I said, there are four chapters of exercises which you could complete in four weeks or four months or as long as you like. But I think that by the time people get to the end of having done those, I'll be amazed if you are nodding at any of those statements that, you know, happen at the beginning of the book.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:38 Yeah, I mean, that, that's a very powerful and, and seductive sell for people. It really. Um, but, but I absolutely agree. I think there are some really powerful tools i- in your approach. I just wanna touch on journaling. Um, so I'm aware that you know journaling, I know what journaling is, but some people listening to this may have heard that term but may not really understand, well, what is it? How do I journal? So, you know, if someone has never done this before and they want to, how might they start?

Dr. Tara Swart 14:03 So you literally get a, a blank sort of diary, and you can start by just saying what happened to you today. So, you know, I could literally say, "I woke up earlier than usual, feeling a bit grumpy. Went to, you know, meet Rangan and do this podcast. Immediately cheered up." And even just in that little snippet, what you've realized is maybe if I don't get enough sleep, that it affects my mood. Maybe if I'm with somebody who I really respect and have fun with, that improves my mood. You've learnt something already just by recording that. Over time, you can get down to talking about things like emotions and intuition. Ta- you're basically talking to yourself. You're recording it to look at later. So you might say, you know, "I had an argument with this person, and this is how it left me feeling. I wish I hadn't said X. If something like this happened again, this is what I'd choose to do in future." So you basically use the journal as a way to sort out your thoughts, to get them out of your head and sort of be able to look at them more objectively and create a narrative that you can look back at and make certain different decisions about your future.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:08 I mean, some people who recommend journaling say that they do it, but they never look back on what they've written down, yet you're saying you do actually go back and look. Is there merits of different approaches there?

Dr. Tara Swart 15:20 I'm sure it's very individual, and I never intended to go back and look. But, um, I do these two trips to America twice a year, and, um, just out of curiosity, I read back over the trip from six months ago when I was there. And I'd been having these little sort of muscular twitches. And to my, you know, surprise, I saw that I'd recorded that in my journal six months ago. And so I basically worked out that the travel, the jet lag, the sort of stress of being away meant that I needed to take more of my magnesium supplements, and it was just a real eye-opener. And then I thought, "Well, what would happen if I looked at the more emotional stuff that I've written down? What, what could I discover?" And to me now, I would say that reading back over your journal is actually more helpful than just writing it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:04 Yeah. Wow, incredible. Um, I, I, I do journal from time to time. I haven't made it a, like a, a constant daily practice, but I go through periods of time in my life where for a few days, a few weeks, I will journal. And I personally like doing it first thing in the morning as part of my morning routine. And you know, I, I wonder if you know about this as a neuroscientist, but I'm, I'm not entirely sure, but sometimes I feel, you know, you've, you've, you've, you've been in a deep sleep, you've woken up, there's so much going around in your subconscious. And when you just start writing first thing in the morning, I sort of feel that what I'm doing is I'm just helping to process my subconscious mind and get it out onto paper. So as you say, it's getting out of my head and onto paper. And, and one of the big problems I see these days is that people are living in their heads. They've got all kinds of anxieties, fears, insecurities rushing around their brain. But the simple act of writing it out in some way quite literally takes it from your brain and out, you know, onto paper.

Dr. Tara Swart 17:03 Well, I fully believe that, um, just like doing aerobic exercise, um, can help you to reduce levels of the stress hormone cortisol, that speaking out loud or writing down these thoughts that are racing round and round in your head, instead of suppressing them or just letting them build up, you know, till it feels like your head's going to explode, is a way of reducing stress. So actually, if you've got anxieties or negative thoughts and you write them down, or you have somebody that you trust that you can talk to, it gets it out of your brain body system, just exactly like exercising can release stress hormones from your brain body system.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:42 Yeah. Very, very powerful, isn't it, journaling? Um, I wanna move to another tool that you have, which you touched on, which is the vision boards. Now, this was amazing for me to see. I've, I've not actually created my own yet, although when I was rereading it this morning, um, when I was re- re- sort of flicking through your book this morning, uh, I thought, "God, I really must do this, actually. I really must pa- make some time maybe this weekend or next weekend and actually do it." I, there's something intuitively that really resonates with me about it. But, you know, what is a vision board, and why is it so powerful?

Dr. Tara Swart 18:12 Okay, so I'm going to start off by saying that this year mine is actually on my phone on Pinterest, which is not, [clears throat] it's not the ideal that I recommend. Um, but I, I just couldn't find the images that I wanted in magazines. But your ideal vision board is a collage that you make by hand. So it's visual It's you've been tactile with it whilst you've created it, so you've already created sort of, you know, um, a bond with it in a way. And I just would get a variety of magazines, so, you know, maybe travel, lifestyle, food, um, and look for images that represent things that I want in my life that year. Sometimes you see an image and it's not something you th- thought about that you wanted, but you just really love that image. You can pick images like that. I try not to use words or numbers, but if you specifically want, had a goal of earning a certain amount of money this year, let's say if you run your own business, you could put that number on there. Um, and it's really important to think about things like if you don't want your life to be too crammed full, that you actually have a board with some space on it, that you don't fill it up. So the whole look and feel of it should represent how you want your life to be. And then, um, it's the visual images, they sort of, they track to parts of your brain that resonate deeper down. So if you write out a list of what you want in your life, that won't have the same impact, but if you repeatedly see these images of what you want, then when you're going around your daily life, you're more likely to notice opportunities to do or get things that you want in your life.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:48 I mean, th- this is the nub of, of, of your approach really, isn't it? This whole idea of, um, you know, people are familiar with the law of attraction, um, but you've really got a lot of science to back that up. So what is it? Is it that by making our brain aware of what we want, like actually having some sort of, you know, act full of intention where we're actually stating, uh, whether it's in journaling, whether it's in affirmations, whether it's on the vision board, we're actually visualizing what we want out of life. Does, is it, is it that the brain is what more, more aware to seeing those opportunities? I mean, what happens?

Dr. Tara Swart 20:25 Yeah, so journaling and affirmations are still words, right? So this is adding in another level, which is the visual one. And the way it works is through two main mechanisms in the brain called selective attention or selective filtering and value tagging. So because we're bombarded with so much information all the time, everything, you know, everything that we see, everything that we hear, everything that we feel, um, our brain naturally has to filter l- most of that out. And so there's a natural mechanism for understanding what's important to our survival, you know, to us doing well in life, and anything that's not totally relevant to that will get filtered out. By creating a vision board, you're priming your brain, telling it what's important to you, so it's more likely to notice those things. So, you know, if I said to you today, "Notice everything that's red," you will notice more London buses and post boxes and, you know, telephone boxes than you do normally, and this is a m- a more sophisticated version of doing that. Um, also the value tagging is that what the brain does decide to keep as important in front of mind, it then tags in order of importance. So importance in terms of things like our personal identity, our work identity, our feeling of belonging in society, and then things that I need to be successful. So again, if you repeatedly look at these images, they're much more front of mind. They're higher up in your value tagging system. And do you remember, did you play Tetris?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:53 I did play Tetris, yeah.

Dr. Tara Swart 21:54 So do you remember if you played it till last thing at night when you fell as- when you were falling asleep and you shut your eyes, you could see the little blocks falling-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:01 Yeah

Dr. Tara Swart 22:01 ... in front of your eyes? So that's a phenomenon that's now become called, it's called the Tetris effect. So if you keep your vision board by your bed, then in those states of waking and falling asleep, the hypnagogic and hypnopompic states, your brain is more impressionable. So if you see that image last thing at night, you close your eyes, you go to sleep, it is going to make a stronger impression on your subconscious. And then the next day, you know, like you said this morning, you read the book and you decided to go to the gym. This weekend you're thinking of doing the vision board. You're much more likely to actually act on that if there's a trigger that reminds you to do it at the time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:37 Yeah. And for people who haven't heard that, um, um, there's a couple things I want to touch on. Um, Tara mentioned that I went to the gym this morning, and just before we started recording, I was telling Tara this w- literally what happened this morning. So I've, I was at an event in London yesterday. I stayed in a hotel last night here, and I, I was, I do tend to get up at 5:00 anyways, so I was up at 5:00, but I was feeling quite tired, you know, out of my home, out of my usual routine, um, you know, where I normally meditate and I, you know, I, I did what I know I arguably shouldn't do. I went onto my computer because I thought, "Oh, I'm interviewing Tara in a couple of hours. I need to, um, I need to make sure, you know. Have a flick through the book again, get some ideas for the, for the conversation." And as I was looking you up online, there's quite a few, uh, videos you've made, um, which are really good actually. I'm gonna link to all of those, uh, online resources in the Show notes page, which is gonna be drchatterjee.com/thesource, so you can see all those videos I'm talking about. But one of them, uh, was I think three tips on how to make your brain function better. I, I, it was something like that. It was about drinking water. It was about how, you gave a stat about if you do, how much aerobic exercise in the morning? I don't know if you remember. You, some sort of aerobic exercise in the morning, how it improves your brain function a certain percent.

Dr. Tara Swart 23:46 Yeah, it's 30 minutes improves your productivity for the rest of that day by 15%.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:51 Yeah. Now look, I'm all about health and wellbeing. I've written two books on health and wellbeing, and I thought, "You know what? I'm not gonna do that now." So I actually shut the computer, put my gym stuff on. I went downstairs to the hotel gym for half an hour, and that was down to watching that video from you because even though I know it, I needed that reminder. So I think that is quite powerful, um, that we all might know what we need to do, because clearly a lot of society knows what we should be doing, but we don't do it. So we do need these triggers. The other thing that really fascinates me, um,

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:21 and I read about the, the Tetris effect in your book, and you've, you've, you've talked about all the science, uh, which is really, really fascinating. It's that period just before we go to bed. Yes, you can do it with the vision boards. But if we, if we look at what a lot of people in society are doing You know, they're on their phones in the evening. They're scrolling through the news, let's say. You know, at the moment we've got all this, you know, I don't know when the podcast is gonna come out, but, you know, there's lots going on about Brexit and all kinds of stuff. You know, quite toxic, um, emotive viewpoints online. If we're looking at that just before we go to bed, as opposed to these beautiful images of how we want our life to be, that's gonna have quite a different impact on our subconscious, isn't it?

Dr. Tara Swart 25:03 Absolutely, and that's, you know, one of the things about being conscious and not being on autopilot is, is basically controlling what you expose your brain to, 'cause the more you expose it to bad news, the more you're likely to live life through fear. We know, for example, that people who repeatedly looked at images of the Twin Towers going down, who had no personal connection to New York, could get PTSD. I mean, it's, it's incredible that just exposing yourself repeatedly to bad news, especially with visual imagery, can actually traumatize you in a way that, you know, you can't easily get over. So I'm very, very careful about what I look at, what I read. Um, you know, my social media feeds are carefully controlled to be as positive as possible. Um, you're absolutely right that if you don't think about it and you look at bad news just before you go to sleep, then... Think about young children. You've got young children. Even if they, you know, read a book that's not that scary, but maybe has some monsters in it, then they can have nightmares. They can feel frightened. Um, so yeah, everything that we expose our brain to has an impact, and we need to be much more mindful of that, um, especially because the gearing of the brain, it's two to two and a half times more likely to focus on negatives than positives. So we need to be feeding our brain more positive things to keep ourselves confident, um, and, you know, moving forward positively.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:29 Yeah. I, I think, I think what you're saying is so profound because it's, it, it's the missing piece for me in health and wellbeing. It's, yes, the physical stuff's important. Working out more is important. Moving more, sleeping more, of course these things are more important. But what we are exposing our vis- you know, our visual field to, what we're exposing our brains to, is something that I don't think gets spoken about enough, and I think it's super, super important. So, um, a few weeks ago on the podcast, I spoke to Johann Hari. Um, yeah, and if people haven't heard that, I would highly encourage you. I think it's probably one of the most impactful conversations I've had so far on the podcast, and he talked about this study, I believe, in the 1970s, where, um, they exposed kids, right, to adverts. So basically, in a nutshell, f- my, my recollection of the story is that one group of kids got to see an advert with the equivalent of what Dora the Explorer is today back then, right? And the other group h- did not see the advert. And then the kids were asked would they like to play with a, a nasty child who has, you know, the equivalent of Dora the Explorer, or would they like to play with a nice child? And, you know, a huge amount of the kids who've expo- been exposed to the advert were happy to play with a nasty child just so they could play with the Dora the Explorer. And it just showed me how incredibly powerful what we're exposing ourselves to. That's a child and adverts, and I'm, I'm pretty militant at home in terms of, uh, you know, uh, technology with kids, but also, uh, adverts in particular. I really don't like them. And I've, I've drilled it into the kids' grandparents that I don't want them watching tele where they can see adverts. I think adverts... You know, like my daughter last year at Christmas, no word of a lie, she, we asked her what she wanted, and she didn't really know, right? And I think that's becau- in many reasons because she doesn't see adverts, so she doesn't know what she should be asking for Christmas. I mean, you know, sorry to go on about this, but it is so, so important. You know, maybe we should, you know... I don't have a news app on my phone anymore. I barely watch the news, and I'm happier when I don't do it.

Dr. Tara Swart 28:40 I really actually want to make you take back that apology, 'cause I think this is a really important thing to talk about. So I hardly watch the news. Um, people say, "How do you know what's going on?" Well, when something really important happens, people tell me.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:53 Yeah.

Dr. Tara Swart 28:54 It's not like I don't know what's going on. But there's a flip side to this I'm seeing in my clients, um, and, and I think that the, you know, listeners and viewers will resonate with this 'cause I'm just seeing it so much, which is your social media feeds, they produce this feeling of discontent that you don't have this amazing lifestyle, the things that other people have, that you don't look like these people on social media, and it's causing serious mental health issues. I mean, we know that in teenage girls, the more times a day you look at social media, the more likely you are to have an eating disorder or a body dysmorphic disorder. But I'm seeing now with very well-educated, intelligent, successful adults this feeling of discontent by looking at social media. And, you know, I sort of think, I remember saying to one of my clients, "It doesn't have that effect on me because I work so hard on staying grounded." But I think if you d- if you're not conscious about working hard on staying grounded, keeping your kids grounded, it would be so easy to think, "Well, I want that. Why don't I have that? Why doesn't my life look like that?" And you can imagine the chain of negative thoughts that that kicks off.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:03 Yeah. One, one of my, um, one of my friends is going through a really tough time at the moment, and, um, his mum's, um, you know, coming towards the end of her life. And I was, I saw him a couple of weeks ago, and he said to me, he's normally very active on, on Instagram, on Facebook, and he said, "Do you know what? I've, I've..." He actually, we were out together and he said, "Look, I've, um, I've come off everything. I've taken them all off my phone temporarily." I said, "Why?" He said, "Because I've realized I'm not in a good emotional state at the moment. And so when my friends were posting about really cool stuff that they're doing, I started to get really resentful, really jealous, and I didn't like the way it was making me feel. So I thought, you know what? These guys are having fun. I shouldn't be resenting them, so I'm just gonna not look at the moment." And I, and I think it affects everyone to a certain degree. So is there- You, you, you mentioned something, it's, and I think you talk about this in the book around the, the section on vision boards about why images are so powerful. You know, that you, you, they bypass something in the brain. Is that right? Images?

Dr. Tara Swart 31:00 Well, I think we're very visual creatures, so, you know, um, we- vision is, is a primary sense for most people. And we're bombarded with images that we don't necessarily curate. So that's an important part, you know, a segue from what we were just saying. But yeah, visual sort of, you know, tracks more, more strongly to the subconscious than when you read something. It sort of travels around the brain in a way that gets picked up by logic, by emotion, by intuition, whereas this kind of bypasses the logic and just gets straight to the core of us. It resonates with us. Um, so using images to make your life feel more positive is really important.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:38 So it bypasses a lot of those systems. It made me think [laughs] of, um, like sublingual B12. You know, B12 you need, um, you know, you need good stomach acid, you need a well-functioning digestive tract to absorb it. Whereas, you know, for people, and many people struggle with that these days, they can't, even if they're taking B12, they can't really absorb it very well. So you take sublingual B12, so actually it just bypasses the gut and goes straight into your body. And it, it sounds like the same thing happens on one level with, with images. So if that's the case, if images are so powerful, is that one of the reasons then why Instagram has been so successful because it is image-based? But also, is that one of the reasons why Instagram can be, in many ways, uniquely toxic?

Dr. Tara Swart 32:21 So I love that analogy, and I'm gonna steal that one for myself and use it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:24 Oh, the B12.

Dr. Tara Swart 32:25 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:25 No, do, do it.

Dr. Tara Swart 32:26 Um, yeah, so I think you're right. That image, you know, whether it's Instagram, Facebook, whatever it is, that images can be so impactful, but in a positive or a negative way, and that's what we need to be aware of. Um, so yeah, the, I think the sort of, the issues with comparison, with discontentment, with resentment, they are magnified by imagery rather than writing-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:50 So, so-

Dr. Tara Swart 32:50 ... or listening

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:51 ... so, so we've covered social media quite a bit on this podcast before. And so for people who are, you know, is there a happy medium? So I guess, I guess the point I'm trying to make is, can you still engage in social media and get the positives of it, of which there are many, without the negatives? And if so, how do people do that?

Dr. Tara Swart 33:10 So I think that you need to be really careful about what you're looking at. And so I tend to follow people that I know, people who are, you know, real people who are either imparting knowledge or, you know, sharing sort of positive, joyful imagery. And, um, not focusing on things that are either really materialistic or, um, you know, aspirational should be a good word, but I think it's become a bad word in a way-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:35 Yeah. I know what you mean

Dr. Tara Swart 33:35 ... which is, you know, I want things that I can't have. I sort of focus on wanting things that I can make possible, and that's really the key, um, difference between vision boards as they've been described before. And what I talk about is I actually call it an action board because what I say is you can't just make this collage and then sit at home waiting for checks to come in the post. You need to be doing things every day to try to make your dreams come true. And so, you know, spending some time on social media is great, it's fun, but spending too much time on it could actually be taking you away from doing the things that you can do to make your life the life that you really want, rather than looking at other people's lives.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:13 I, I love that you call it an action board because one of the critiques that is often leveled at, um, you know, ideas like the law of attraction, certainly from my understanding, is that well, you just think about this stuff and it just happens. Um, and I don't quite think that's what they're saying anyway, but I think that's one of the, the negative, um, com- you know, things that I've heard against it. But you're not really saying that, are you? You're saying create that, but use it as a way to w- imprint what you want in your brain and then create action.

Dr. Tara Swart 34:41 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 34:42 Yeah, and I think that's quite a big difference a- and a very important difference.

Dr. Tara Swart 34:45 I think you're right. I think that there's been a bit of a unfair, bad reputation, um, of things like the law of attraction and vision boards, um, with this idea that you just expect it to come true. Um, I don't think that's what it ever was either, but I've made a much more strong case-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:00 Sure

Dr. Tara Swart 35:00 ... for saying that you need to do the things that make it come true.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:03 And, and I think that's what makes, um, your book so unique is that it really ha- has got a lot of these ideas in that are grounded in science, which is, you know, which is great actually. It's really great, and I think, I think it's likely to, you know, inspire people who may be, may have been a bit skeptical of these ideas in the past, might go, "Oh, well that's really interesting. There, there really is science behind this. Now I'm gonna do it," sort of thing.

Dr. Tara Swart 35:27 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:27 And not everyone needs science, but some people do.

Dr. Tara Swart 35:29 A lot of people have said to me that, um, the science has really compelled them to do the exercises and take action, and I've actually been amazed by the fact that everyone from my stepson's friends, who are in their 20s, to my friends and, um, people in the generation above are reading the book [laughs] and doing vision boards. And I didn't, I didn't expect it to have such, you know, broad and wide appeal. But, it, you know, some people find the particularly s- science-y chapter may be a little bit hard to get through. You don't have to read that chapter if you don't want to. But the practical chapters, the chapters about the laws of attraction and vision boards, everybody seems to be really enjoying. And I think it's got just the right amount of science to make you feel like, "Okay, I understand why this works."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:13 Yeah.

Dr. Tara Swart 36:13 But, you know, not so much that you think it's a neuroscience book, 'cause it's not.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:16 Well, it's, it's really not. It doesn't read like that at all. It, it reads brilliantly. And, um, I actually, as I was rereading it this morning, want to, um, I wanna do it with my kids actually. 'Cause I think you make, you say collages. That's what they do sometimes at weekends for their homework. And I think, actually, wouldn't it be fun if my wife, me, my kids, we all made our own vision board? And actually, I'm a big fan of, uh, I know many parents listen to this podcast, and I, and I think we can maybe explore this whole idea of negativity and how, and how our brain is programmed to actually, I think you said two, two and a half times more likely to focus on the negative, which is, which is incredible. But, um- I play a gratitude game with my, with my family every evening. Um, you know, we, we all go around the table saying, "What have I done to make someone else happy? What has somebody else done to make me happy? And what have I learned today?" And, you know, I, I won't reiterate the story in case people have heard it before, but what I really feel I'm doing, although, yes, it was for my kids, but I, I'm getting huge benefit from doing the game myself, I must be honest. I really feel that, you know, it's helping to really instill in my kids from a young age how to reflect on the positive that has happened in their everyday life. And I think arguably as, as the world is becoming more and more stressy, more busy, more toxic, I actually think those are the skills that are gonna be necessary in the future to, to be happy. And, and, you know, and so I feel, well, maybe an extension of that is to maybe once a year we create a vision board together, and then ... I, I don't know. I mean, I mean, what, what do you think? Have you, have you had experience of people, any of your clients doing it with their children?

Dr. Tara Swart 37:53 Absolutely. And I think, I think e- each person does need to do their own one.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:56 Okay.

Dr. Tara Swart 37:56 I don't recommend doing a family one.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:58 Okay.

Dr. Tara Swart 37:59 Um, but all of you doing it is great. And the thing I love about children is that ... So you know how you were saying earlier, we all kind of know what we should be doing, but we don't always do it. I feel like we put more effort into making sure our children are eating right, sleeping right, you know, and even into looking after our pets more than we do ourselves. Children still have that wonderful self-love that I think adults tend to lose. So try this experiment with your kids. Okay. Ask them who they love. Kids tend to say, "Mummy, Daddy," the sibling, "and myself." We never say, "I love myself," do we? So-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:33 Not in the UK we don't, no. [laughs]

Dr. Tara Swart 38:35 No. [laughs] But in the book, it's a lot about self-love and self-care. Um, so I think, you know, doing that vision board, each of you, but as a family, is kind of saying, "I'm on my own journey. There are things that I want. We're in this together, but, you know, I'm focusing on loving myself and creating what I want in my life, as long as that doesn't clash with the family." Um, that's, that's great. That's okay. And then you kind of know what each other's vision boards are. You can help each other to get them.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:02 Yeah, no, I love it. I'm, I am gonna try that. So I think, uh, this whole idea of self-love, loving yourself, is something that I think as Brits we have struggled with for a period of time. I think maybe, and I could be wrong, my perception is, is in, in America they're sort of more open about this. I certainly think in the UK we, we can't really say that, although I think it's really, really important. Um, this, this idea of, um, negativity and fear, you, you have a very powerful line in the book where, I can't remember exactly

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:32 word for word, but you talk about how many of us, um, many of us actually use fear as a way of making decisions, and that can be problematic. Can you explain what you mean by that?

Dr. Tara Swart 39:45 That's actually a natural default, so you have to, to, you know, make a lot of effort to override that. Because to help us to survive, fear is actually our strongest emotion.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:54 So we're hardwired for that.

Dr. Tara Swart 39:56 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:56 Right.

Dr. Tara Swart 39:57 Um, and you can see why, because when we lived in the cave, you had to be afraid of saber-tooth tigers and run away from them, otherwise you die. You had to feel disgusted by food that was turning, you know, on the turn, 'cause otherwise you could, you could become sick and die. So basically, these sort of negative emotions like fear, anger, disgust, shame, and sadness, they have a much more powerful effect on our brain than positive emotions like love and trust and joy and excitement. Um, and you know, there's a survival advantage to that. But if you, once you know that, you've raised it in your awareness, you can take steps to say, "I choose to make my decisions from ab- abundance," which is a phrase that I use a lot in the book. So of course, we don't want bad things to happen to us. We don't want to lose our jobs. We don't want to, um, you know, end our relationships. We don't want to lose friends. Um, we don't want to be in debt. Ev- everybody will be saying, "Yes, of course I don't want those things." But instead of making your life decisions based on avoiding those bad things, just choose to make your life decisions based on things like, um, you know, building up a little nest egg in the bank, um, ha- having your relationship evolve and improve more than, you know, it, it, it even is at the moment, um, making new friends. So those things all seem to involve a bit of risk, you know. And like you said, as Brits, we don't really like to say, "I'm gonna try to earn more and get a pay rise and put some money away." It's, it's embarrassing. We don't talk about things like that. But you can put that on your vision board. You can promise it to yourself. You don't have to sort of brag about it. You can make a real effort to understand the psyche of your partner more and improve your relationship. You can try to go out and meet new and different people that will broaden your horizons. And actually, um, meeting new people, having new experiences, traveling if you're able to, and if not, just, you know, reading books on topics that are really different to what you normally do, they're all activities that make your brain more open and flexible. And once you learn to try new things and you get a positive benefit from that, then if something bad happens to you, like, you know, you've mentioned a bereavement, I've mentioned a divorce, you will just feel that little bit more able to deal with a change because you've been willingly bringing changes into your life, which seems like a risk at times, but is actually a really good thing to do.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:16 So I, I guess in many ways the, the, the inspiring take home for me is that, look, we are programmed to look at the negative, so we absolutely, if we wanna get the most out of our life, we need a strategy. If we leave it up to the default, if we leave it up to, "Oh, if I feel like it, I'll do it," it ain't gonna happen because, you know, we're hardwired to think this way. So, and, and I think many, you know, many people are starting to realize this. That's why I think so many people in the health and wellbeing sects are talking about gratitude now. 'Cause, yes, there's science behind gratitude, um, but it's great to have so many people talking about it and saying, "Hey, it's okay to say that I'm grateful for things," and, and have a daily practice. And, and I sort of feel, and I, and I have written about this before, but I, I, I kind of feel that- A lot of religions have had for years these sort of practices instilled within them. And often I think that religion's actual role for, really was to help create some sort of good living rules for society, wherever, wherever those societies were. And, you know, whether as we're getting more secular as a society now, I think we're losing some of those good practice rules. Um, and I think a lot of them really aren't to do with religion. They're just good practices for, for how to feel well. So if we talk about gratitude, and gratitude is something you talk about-

Dr. Tara Swart 43:36 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:37 ... your own practice of gratitude has evolved somewhat over the years, hasn't it?

Dr. Tara Swart 43:42 Yeah, I love the way you put that question because in the book I have drawn on lots of ancient practices, and then backed them up by science. So you're right, gratitude is, I'm sure it features in many religions, but it, you know, famously research has been done on, uh, the practice of gratitude in the Buddhist religion. And so what I found with my own practice was that it started off as, you know, I'm grateful for the things in my life like my family, my friends, my ability to travel. Um, and over time it evolved into more intrinsic qualities, um, and resources that I felt that I had. Like, I'm grateful that I'm creative. I'm grateful that I'm resilient. And as my gratitude list started to become about things like that, it made me feel like if something unexpected or bad happens to me in future, I have the tools within me to deal with that. And that was a breakthrough for me. That was really, really empowering. And it led me to add into the book that it shouldn't just be about gratitude. Um, that's an absolute, I would say that's the minimum, you know, most important one to do. But I've also introduced an idea of accomplishments or achievement lists. So sometimes instead of doing 10 things I'm grateful for, I do 10 things I'm really proud of that I've achieved. Because again, I think being Brits, we don't really acknowledge that, and we don't talk about it enough. So, you know, I'll just write down some things that I've done academically or in my career. But again, this evolved into things like, you know, how important it's been for me to become a stepmom, and that that's a real achievement. It's, you know, see, it's an easy thing to say, "Well, you know, well, you are one," but actually, I've made a real effort at it, my stepson's made a real effort, and we've built this, you know, amazing relationship that I didn't expect. And so I consider that a big achievement, not just the medical degree or the neuroscience PhD, you know? And, and so that again builds up your image of yourself as a person. I'm someone that learnt to play a role that I hadn't expected to play.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:39 Yeah, that, that's a great example because society would probably, um, applaud you for your medical degree, for your neuroscience qualifications, for the fact that you are a teacher at such a esteemed business school, MIT.

Dr. Tara Swart 45:53 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:54 And, you know, sometimes that societal view of us doesn't really, it doesn't really match what we're feeling about ourselves. And that sort of mismatch is, is, is often at the root and heart of so much discontentment.

Dr. Tara Swart 46:08 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:08 And so I think that's really powerful that how you've actually had to create, I mean, in some ways it's unfair to say create a story, but in many ways, yeah, you've had to create that narrative in your own head that, you know, I have, I'm a really good stepmom, and I've worked really hard at it.

Dr. Tara Swart 46:23 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:23 And I think, I think that'll be very helpful for people to think about things like that.

Dr. Tara Swart 46:28 Yeah. I think, you know, I was sort of programmed by society to focus on those outward, um, demonstrations of achievement like going to medical school and, you know, getting certain jobs and things like that. And it's really taken me through, you know, the process that I've described in the book to get to the point where I actually feel like it's okay to say that I'm more proud of some of those personal things. I mean, I think it's up to my stepson to say whether I'm a really good stepmom or not. Um, but, you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:56 Yes, it is. But also it's up to you, I guess, in one level to say how your perception is of your role as a stepmom.

Dr. Tara Swart 47:04 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:05 'Cause ultimately, you know, you can't really control what your stepson would say about you, but you can control, you know, your view of that, I guess.

Dr. Tara Swart 47:15 Mm. And, and of course, you know, the efforts that I make to-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:18 Yeah

Dr. Tara Swart 47:18 ... to work on that relationship. But yeah, I think, you know, particularly as a woman, that it, it's actually taken me some courage a- actually to say that I am proud of those things that are traditionally seen as, you know, softer female attributes, where I've had to like, work so hard to get the sort of, you know, more masculine, logical attributes. Um, and that's really what the source is. It's about being at peace with and integrating all those different aspects of yourself.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:45 Yeah. You mentioned as a woman, uh, and I'm really interested in your experience 'cause you, you, you do a lot of executive coaching. Uh, you help a lot of people get more out of their lives. Is there a difference between the way women view some of these ideas and the way men do?

Dr. Tara Swart 48:04 So in my executive coaching work, 90% of my clients are male.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:08 Mm.

Dr. Tara Swart 48:08 And because at the level that I'm coaching, at the leadership level, that's, that's how it is. So, you know, that says something already. Um, you know, obviously I am a woman, and my closest friends are more women than men. So when I was writing the book, I was definitely feeling, you know, for some of these stories of women that I know that have been through, um, relationship breakups. That was a big part of, of, you know, what's been written about in the book. And then things like deciding to start up your own business or go for a promotion. I think men and women's experiences of these things are different. Um, but any science that I've mentioned is always based on population norm studies, so it's not all men and all women. Um, I always say if you had, you know, a room full of 100 people, and you asked them to line up in order of height, it wouldn't be 50 men on the tall side and 50 women on the short side. There'd be some mixture. So everything about gender has to be taken in, you know, in that sort of way. But I think experiences of emotions, of relationships, um, of parenting even, they are different experiences.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:12 I, I think that's the key, isn't it? We, you know, as a rule, and I guess obviously there are individual cases which don't, um, follow these sort of rules. Um, but- Men and women probably by and large experience things a little bit differently. Our perception of things might be a little bit different, certainly for some of us. But as I read through your book, and I think about my own patients-

Dr. Tara Swart 49:32 [clears throat]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:32 ... of which there are men and women, I, I don't see anything in there that would not be applicable to one sex over another. I think it's absolutely applicable to everybody really. In fact, I guess what I'd say, if everyone was to read this and apply the tools in your book, they would probably feel that they're getting more out of their life. Um, which, you know, i- is a huge compliment to, to what's in it. I think it's ... I, I think there's a lot there that, that really just doesn't get spoken about, um, in the health and wellbeing sector. Which is why I'm, I'm so pleased to, to be able to have this conversation with you. You

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:02 do talk about something that does get spoken about a lot, which is meditation. But what fascinates me is I've read that you do your meditation for 12 minutes on the tube.

Dr. Tara Swart 50:13 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:14 So tell me about that.

Dr. Tara Swart 50:16 Um, so, you know, we all lead very busy lives, as you often say.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:20 We, we do. [laughs]

Dr. Tara Swart 50:20 [laughs] Um, so I was struggling to, to fit in that extra 12 minutes. I mean, that sounds so pathetic because it's only 12 minutes. But I was sort of like, okay, I could either do it first thing in the morning, which I know you do, which is great. But I wake up in the morning, and I just feel like I have to get ready and get out of the house. Um, and to take an extra 12 minutes, which would, to me would mean 12 minutes less of sleep, is just not a deal that I've made with myself. So then I would often go through the day and think, "Well, I'll do it after work," or, "I'll do it, you know, before bed." And you're, you're just too tired, aren't you? You don't really want to do that. So I started realizing that I was spending time on the tube that was essentially sort of dead time. Um, and I discovered, you know, all these great apps like Headspace, Calm, Buddhify. Put my earphones in. If I got a seat, then I would, you know, close my eyes, listen to the voice for 10, 12, 15 minutes, and I'd ... my meditation was done. Um, I had been practicing yoga for many years before that, so it took me nine or 10 months to be able to achieve the same without the earphones and the app.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:24 That's fascinating. So you, you started off doing it with an app-

Dr. Tara Swart 51:29 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:29 ... which is pretty much accessible to everybody listening to this podcast.

Dr. Tara Swart 51:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:32 Everyone's got a phone pretty much. Everyone c- can download some of these apps. So I get that. I get that a busy tube with, uh, noise and hustle around you, you can sort of close off and meditate. But you've built up to the point where can you still meditate without your earphones and without using an app?

Dr. Tara Swart 51:50 Yeah. So like I said, it took me nine or 10 months, and that was somebody who'd been doing yoga for, you know, 10 years by then. So it may not be right for, for everyone to do that. But, um, one of the things that you can do in meditation is to, uh, focus just on one sound in, in the plethora of sounds that are around you. So as long, you know, as long as I get a seat. I did try it once standing up. That was really stupid-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:13 [laughs]

Dr. Tara Swart 52:13 ... because when you close your eyes, you lose balance. Um, I sit down. I make sure that my arms and legs aren't crossed. I close my eyes. Um, and I focus on breathing, and I do a, a body scan. And then I'll just focus on a positive image, you know, either one that I've just used before that I really like or something that I want for that day. Um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:33 Do you close your eyes?

Dr. Tara Swart 52:34 Yeah, I close my eyes. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:34 So you close your eyes.

Dr. Tara Swart 52:35 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:35 You're just sitting there for 10, 12 minutes-

Dr. Tara Swart 52:36 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:36 ... closing your eyes. And, uh ... Do, do you use a timer?

Dr. Tara Swart 52:41 No, because I know, um, that six tube stops is 12 minutes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:45 Yeah. Brilliant. You know what I love about this, Tara, is that whether it's in your meditation practice, whether it's the way you've evolved your gratitude practice, that you started off doing things which you knew were gonna help you. And as you got to know yourself better, as you got to know your life better and your routines better, you evolve them. Um, you progress them. You've progressed your gratitude practice, so it serves you probably in an even better way than your, your pr- your, your initial one did.

Dr. Tara Swart 53:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:11 You're now able to meditate, you know, without using external help, which, you know, obviously that doesn't have to be the goal for people. But for me, you know, I would love to be able to be able ... You know, I would love to be able to meditate more without using an app if I could. And, and sometimes I can, and it's something that I'm working towards. So I, I just want people listening to, to really understand that actually you just need to get started. You need to hear some of these practices. You need to look at the chapters in your book where there are some really practical tips, and just start doing some of these exercises. And you know what? Do them in whatever way you want to initially, but it may evolve.

Dr. Tara Swart 53:43 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:44 Is that what you've seen in your coaching practice as well?

Dr. Tara Swart 53:46 Absolutely. The experience of it changes things for people. So when I teach at MIT, I do a guided meditation at the end of the day. And I believe that for so- you know, for many people, that's their first experience of meditation, that then they will go and get the app. If I just give you all the science about why meditation is so great and then say, "Go and get an app," but you've never experienced it, I think there'd be a massive percentage difference in the number of people that would actually action that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:12 Yeah. So it's, it's that whole idea that, you know, we respond as humans, don't we, to feelings, to experiences, not necessarily to that logical ... Right at the start, we were talking about this, you know. We, we think logic is king, but, but maybe it's feelings and intuition and experiences that are king.

Dr. Tara Swart 54:29 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:30 Yeah. And I think that's, that's, that's quite a, a paradigm shift for many of us. I must ask you, why 12 minutes?

Dr. Tara Swart 54:38 So there's this amazing study by Amishi Jha in New York. Um, she worked with the US Marines. And she showed that Marines who did 12 minutes of mindfulness meditation every day had increased resilience on the battlefield compared to Marines that did less than 12 minutes or nothing. So I think 12 minutes is the absolute minimum. And basically Most of us are quite lazy. [laughs] Our brains are quite lazy, so I do the absolute minimum. I think 15 minutes would probably be better, but, you know, I've got that study in my brain. I've expanded on it in the book-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:13 There you are

Dr. Tara Swart 55:13 ... and given references. Um, so it, it is obviously better to do more, um, but that's the minimum that will have a positive impact on your brain over time, so that's what I do.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:24 Fantastic. Tara, I wanna start bringing this to a close now. I've really enjoyed the conversation we've had today. Uh, it really has left me feeling quite inspired to change a few things in my life, and I will, I will, I will let you know. In fact, what I'm gonna do is, uh... Do you, is it, is it okay to, for me to do my own action board and send it to you in a text or something? Is that, is that-

Dr. Tara Swart 55:40 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:41 Yeah? I, I-

Dr. Tara Swart 55:41 Yeah, I'd love that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:42 Yeah. I think that's, that's, uh... I'm saying it on air, so it's, it's almost a good accountability thing for me to do. Uh, so I, I will aim to do that within the next few weeks. I'll aim to do that.

Dr. Tara Swart 55:51 Okay.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:51 Okay. That's all right. Um, but I, I wanna finish on two, two questions really. The first one is... And this probably leads into the second question, but in, in, in your evolution, it sounds like you've been on quite a journey over the last 10, 15 years in personal life and professional life. Um, what are the things that you think you have changed in your life that have had the most impact on your wellbeing?

Dr. Tara Swart 56:17 Great question. Um, I'm going to start, start with sleep. When I wrote my previous book, the research came out about the glymphatic system that flushes toxins out of the brain, um, the same toxins that if they build up lead to dementing diseases like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's. So like you, I was a junior doctor working crazy hours and not sleeping. Now I travel around the world a lot, so I'm often jet lagged. So basically I try to get eight hours of good quality sleep as often as I can. If I'm restless because of jet lag, then I will take the opportunity to turn myself onto my side, which is the best position for flushing toxins out of the brain. So basically-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:57 What, what side is that?

Dr. Tara Swart 56:58 Um, either side is fine, uh, as opposed to front or back.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:02 Okay.

Dr. Tara Swart 57:02 Um, so sleeping on your side helps the, the glymphatic system to work more efficiently. So basically the message there is I try to do the right things about sleep and everything else, but I don't get stressed about it if I can't.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:15 Yeah.

Dr. Tara Swart 57:16 Um, so that's, that's a really big thing for me. You know, I try to eat right. I try to remember to take my supplements. I journal when I can. I meditate when I can. Um, but if I don't do it, then I, I don't get stressed. I would say that is a really big learning for me. I think that that's a really big tip. I would also say it's better to change 10 things by 1% than try to change one thing by 10%. So work on micro tweaks to your routine, like go to bed half an hour earlier, do a digital detox over one weekend, um, drink a bit more water than you normally do. Try to increase your steps by 1 to 2,000 per day for a week and see what happens. So for small things like that build up because you start to feel better, your brain becomes more powerful, and then you're able to do, you know, some of the bigger goals that you may have been-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:03 Yeah

Dr. Tara Swart 58:03 ... saving up.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:04 Man, I love that. I, I absolutely love that, that whole idea that... You know, I never heard it put like that before. Try and change 10 things by 1%, rather than one thing by 10%. I think, you know, we often try and bite off more than we can chew. Uh, very, very common. I've done that. I've made that mistake in my own life in trying to make wellbeing changes, and I've realized that it may work for a few weeks. It just doesn't tend to be sustainable. Um, so that's what you have done differently, and I guess this would probably would be a similar answer, but, you know, it's called Feel Better, Live More, this podcast. It's to try and inspire people to get the most out of their lives and inspire people s- to, to, to sort of believe that they can be the architects of their own health. So can you leave my listeners with some, you know, short, snappy tips that they can do immediately that's gonna improve the quality of their life?

Dr. Tara Swart 58:51 I would say go to bed half an hour earlier from tonight. Start journaling from tomorrow morning. Download an meditation app and just listen to it and, and, you know, think about starting to bring that into your practice. Don't drink caffeine after 12 o'clock.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:10 Love it.

Dr. Tara Swart 59:12 Um, and longer term, s- make a vision board.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:15 Brilliant. I think those are some great tips. I hope that's inspired people to actually go and hopefully engage in all five, but certainly do some of them. Tara, thank you for your time today. I know you've been really busy since the book's come out. It's been a huge success. Um, if people want to contact you on social media, is that something that you... Are you publicly available on social media?

Dr. Tara Swart 59:34 Yes. I absolutely love social media. Um, you know, like I say, I use it as a force for good. Um, I don't get obsessed with it, but I, you know, put lots of written information out on Twitter, @taraswart, and lots of visual, um, information on Instagram @drtaraswart, D-R Tara Swart.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:50 Fantastic. And guys, for everything we've spoken about today, everything that, um, that, you know, the, the articles and the links to some of the videos that Tara's made, I'm gonna put all of those online in the show notes page, which is drchatterjee.com/thesource, so you can actually continue your learning experience now that the podcast has come to a conclusion. Tara, thank you for your time today, and I hope we get a chance to do this again in the near future.

Dr. Tara Swart 1:00:13 Thank you so much. Like I said, this was a dream come true, Rangan. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:16 Aw, thank you so much. Thanks for making time today.