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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

Regulate Your Nervous System, Sleep Better and Find Joy | Dr Kristen Holmes

Join my Built To Thrive community here https://links.drchatterjee.com/4jayYW3 This episode is brought to you by: LINGO BY ABBOTT: For users in the US and UK, Lingo by Abbott is offering an exclusive 10% off a 4-week plan with the code LIVEMORE10. Just visit https://hellolingo.com/livemore for more information. Terms and conditions apply. Are you in control of your nervous system, or is it controlling you? And what if some of the simplest daily habits could help you sleep better and handle stress more effectively? In this episode, I’m joined by Dr Kristen Holmes, Global Head of Human Performance and Principal Scientist at WHOOP, to explore how we can build a more resilient nervous system. In her new book, Aligned, Kristen brings together physiology and psychology to explain how our daily habits shape our health and how we respond to life’s challenges. Kristen shares four simple, free behaviours, tested by 39,000 people, that can support better sleep and recovery. We discuss why morning light matters, how consistent sleep and wake times can improve your wellbeing, and the health metric Kristen would choose if she could track just one. She also explains why some of us fall ill just as we finally take a holiday. But this conversation goes beyond physical health. Kristen speaks openly about her childhood and how she found a path towards forgiveness. We explore why we sometimes soothe uncomfortable emotions with food or scrolling, and why lasting change begins with understanding ourselves rather than criticising ourselves. Kristen also shares why living in line with your values matters, how self-compassion can help us change, and what it means to cultivate joy rather than constantly chase happiness. Whether you want to improve your sleep or understand why changing your habits can feel so difficult, this conversation offers practical advice alongside a deeper look at what it means to live with greater purpose and an open heart. 🌱 Want to feel better and live more? Subscribe for new conversations that could change how you think about your health and your life. ________________________________________ Episode Chapters 00:00 Introduction 00:03 Why Nervous System Regulation Matters 03:20 How to Build a More Resilient Nervous System 09:20 Where to Start: Body or Mind? 11:36 Internal vs External Control 15:45 4 Habits to Improve Sleep and Stress 27:33 Why Sleep-Wake Consistency Matters 30:55 VO₂ Max: A Key Measure of Your Health 44:01 Time-Restricted Eating Explained 52:10 The 80/20 Rule for Health and Recovery 54:28 How to Find Your Natural Sleep Rhythm 01:02:52 Stimulants and Better Sleep 01:07:34 Circadian Rhythm and Mental Health 01:09:03 Purpose, Values and Living in Alignment 01:14:25 How to Live in Line With Your Values 01:18:41 Kristen’s Personal Story Behind Aligned 01:22:23 Forgiveness: How to Let Go of Anger 01:26:12 Trauma, Fear and Trust 01:39:20 Happiness vs Joy: What’s the Difference? 01:42:01 Love, Peace and Spirituality 01:49:56 Where to Start With Lasting Change Connect with Kristen: https://www.instagram.com/drkristenholmes/ Kristen’s book: Aligned: The Data-Driven Guide to Performance, Recovery and Human Potential UK https://link.amazon/B0hHhhMEI US https://link.amazon/B0eSH5AKV #feelbetterlivemore #feelbetterlivemorepodcast The Thrive Tour: Transform Your Health and Happiness, a live show: Book Your Tickets https://drchatterjee.com/live ----- Follow Dr Chatterjee at: Website: https://drchatterjee.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drchatterjee Twitter: https://twitter.com/drchatterjeeuk Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drchatterjee/ Newsletter: https://drchatterjee.com/subscription DISCLAIMER: The content in the podcast and on this webpage is not intended to constitute or be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on the podcast or on my website.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjeehost
Oct 28, 20261h 55mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:03

    Introduction

    1. RC

      I've once heard you say that the world is divided

  2. 0:03 – 3:20

    Why Nervous System Regulation Matters

    1. RC

      into two types of people, those who have control of their autonomic nervous system and those who don't. Which group do you fall into?

    2. KH

      Well, that's a great place to start, and, and that's definitely the red thread, um, of Aligned, you know, is, is this idea that when we think about performance and we think about health, it is very much constrained by our capacity. And I guess the theory or the thesis of, of the book is that we build capacity by building a robust autonomic nervous system. And, and I suppose when we think about the world being divided in two, it's, it's folks who have... are able to respond in a way that is aligned with who they wanna be in the world, right?

    3. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    4. KH

      And it's very difficult to do that when you have a dysregulated nervous system. So I like to think that [laughs] over the course of my life I've arrived at a place where I'm able to have more control over my state. You know, I understand when I am drifting from who I wanna be in the world. When I feel that dissonance bubble up, I don't just let it fester. I, I take some action, and I-

    5. RC

      Hmm

    6. KH

      ... course-correct, right? And I bring myself back into a regulated state. And, and I think we can step back even further when we think about stress and exhaustion, and aging even.

    7. RC

      Hmm.

    8. KH

      You know, that... those are hallmarks of a dysregulated nervous system. And I think the literature, you know, there's a really great opinion piece that was published in December of, of 2025-

    9. RC

      Mm-hmm

    10. KH

      ... where they look at the theory of aging, and basically all of the hallmarks of aging that we, we consider, you know, telomere attrition, and genomic instability, and mitochondrial dysfunction, inflammation, all of these are actually downstream of a dysregulated autonomic nervous system.

    11. RC

      Yeah.

    12. KH

      So I guess the idea is if we can bring ourselves back into balance, if we are able to effectively toggle in between stress activation and deactivation, and, and have a, a level of conscious awareness, we can, I guess, have more control over the trajectory of our health and certainly over our performance levels. That's the case I make in, in the book. And, and a lot of that comes down to how we manage our downtime, how we think about recovery.

    13. RC

      Yeah. It's interesting you mention the health and performance.

    14. KH

      Mm.

    15. RC

      For me, it goes even further than that. A well-managed, a well-regulated autonomic nervous system, I'm not sure there's anything more important-

    16. KH

      Mm

    17. RC

      ... that we can focus on. Because, yeah-

    18. KH

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... the downstream of that is better health-

    20. KH

      Right

    21. RC

      ... better longevity-

    22. KH

      Right

    23. RC

      ... better performance.

    24. KH

      Right.

    25. RC

      But it's also how we are, our relationships with our partner, with our children-

    26. KH

      Mm, mm

    27. RC

      ... with our colleagues. How many of us are reactive-

    28. KH

      Mm-hmm

    29. RC

      ... these days, you know? We're, we're not bringing our best selves to our-

    30. KH

      Yeah

  3. 3:20 – 9:20

    How to Build a More Resilient Nervous System

    1. KH

      Yeah.

    2. RC

      Um, and then maybe comment on what I've just said.

    3. KH

      Yeah, yeah. So you have the central nervous system, which is made up of the brain and the spinal cords. Then you have the peripheral nervous system, which is, part of that is the autonomic nervous system. And the autonomic nervous system has two branches, the parasympathetic and the sympathetic, and they're both competing to send signals to the heart. The, the more regulated you are, the more responsive your heart is gonna be to the demands of the autonomic nervous system.

    4. RC

      Hmm.

    5. KH

      And so when... And you can imagine a scenario when your heart no longer becomes responsive to the demands of the autonomic nervous system, you're dead. [laughs]

    6. RC

      Yeah.

    7. KH

      You know? It... Or, or you are debilitated to a degree where you can't respond effectively to external stress.

    8. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    9. KH

      And I think that's the opportunity, is to be able to respond. Just all the things that you've just outlined beautifully, those are the things that we wanna be able to respond and engage with-

    10. RC

      Mm-hmm

    11. KH

      ... in a, in a way that feels good to us, you know? And, and in order to kind of get to a place of good-

    12. RC

      Hmm

    13. KH

      ... what are the behaviors, the foundational stuff that allow me to perform, which is really a, an expression of capacity. So when we zoom out, we're like, how do we actually build capacity?

    14. RC

      Hmm.

    15. KH

      How do we build a robu- a robust autonomic nervous system? And a lot of those things are the stuff that's talked about a lot, you know, sleep and circadian alignment, um, you know, appropriate training, um, appropriate levels of rest, understanding stress and rest at a very foundational level, and that's kind of the first half of the book. And then I guess the second part of the book is, is really more of how do we think about time and expectations, attachments, right?

    16. RC

      Yeah.

    17. KH

      Memory, right? [laughs] Like, the, those are things that we, we don't consider those as dimensions that influence how we show up in the world, right?

    18. RC

      Yeah.

    19. KH

      That, that actually originate in the autonomic nervous system.

    20. RC

      Yeah. One, one of the things I've always loved about your work, and I particularly like about the new book Aligned, is the fact that you're covering both physiology and psychology.

    21. KH

      Hmm.

    22. RC

      And I guess I'm biased. I like that because that's how I see-

    23. KH

      Hmm

    24. RC

      ... the human body. I don't think you can actually look at one without the other, and I think when we try and do that, we really struggle. So l-

    25. KH

      Yeah

    26. RC

      ... you know, with health, for example, you know, health and wellbeing is all the rage these days.

    27. KH

      [laughs]

    28. RC

      You know, there's many podcasts like this one where we're trying to-

    29. KH

      Yeah

    30. RC

      ... share positive, empowering information.

  4. 9:20 – 11:36

    Where to Start: Body or Mind?

    1. RC

      and I remember talking to him saying, "Mate, it doesn't start with food for everyone."

    2. KH

      Yes.

    3. RC

      Right? We've all got different entry points.

    4. KH

      Yes.

    5. RC

      And for some people, yeah, it does start with food, and it does start with physiology. But for some people, their entry point is with psychology.

    6. KH

      Right, right.

    7. RC

      And that's okay as well.

    8. KH

      Exactly. And I, and that's kind of how I structured the book, like, and, and how there's a workbook at the end, and it, it basically takes you chapter by chapter. And for some folks, it might be just understanding the relationship between stress and rest, you know, that they have this demand mismatch in their life that is so egregious, right? That might be where they start. Or it might be they view the world... They're, they're, they're, they have unresolved trauma, and they need to really heal, and what does that healing process look like? That might be their entry point, right?

    9. RC

      Yeah.

    10. KH

      To your point, we all have the thing that is kind of, I think at the, at the, at the basic level is keeping us from being that version of ourself that we aspire to be, you know? And, and recognizing what is holding us back is the most beautiful source of insight we can have, right?

    11. RC

      Mm.

    12. KH

      And then just figuring out, okay, if this is the thing that's holding me back, how do I, how do I make that leap, right? And I, I think you said it, like, transformation. And in the opening of the book, um, Rebecca Solnit, she wrote this, this, this, a beautiful book on, on, on just this notion of a transfor- transformation. And, and she says that we are often scared of transformation because we don't actually know what's on the other side.

    13. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    14. KH

      And that in itself is a source of insight. Okay, am I scared of what that change could mean-

    15. RC

      Mm

    16. KH

      ... in terms of how it might shift my partnerships or, you know, my, my, my relationship with my partner, or how it might... Maybe I, I do this work and realize that the job I'm in is not the job I wanna be in.

    17. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    18. KH

      You know, but I've gotta pay bills and... You know, there's a little bit of a reckoning that comes with, with change, and I think that fear is sometimes what holds, holds people back. But I think that's part of the invitation of this book, is like, you gotta just make the leap.

    19. RC

      Yeah. There, there's a beautiful chapter, um, where you talk about trust and fear.

    20. KH

      Mm.

    21. RC

      And from recollection, you talk about certainty there, this, this, this idea

  5. 11:36 – 15:45

    Internal vs External Control

    1. RC

      that certainty is an illusion, right?

    2. KH

      Mm.

    3. RC

      We want to be certain of the outcome before we make a change, but you can't be.

    4. KH

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      'Cause you've never been there before, right? And the version of you who might be trying this time is different from the version of you who tried five years ago.

    6. KH

      Mm.

    7. RC

      So you gotta get away from this idea of certainty. And I think, I remember right at the start, the question I asked you was about this, this, this word control of the autonomic nervous system.

    8. KH

      Mm.

    9. RC

      That word control, I have really thought about and meditated on for years, and, and, and, and I'd, I'd welcome your view on this. The, the way I see control is internal control versus-

    10. KH

      Mm

    11. RC

      ... external control. So I can't control the external world-

    12. KH

      Mm

    13. RC

      ... whether it's gonna rain or sun-

    14. KH

      [laughs]

    15. RC

      ... you know, or whether someone's gonna cut me up on- I can't control that. But with enough intention-

    16. KH

      Mm-hmm

    17. RC

      ... and with enough work, I can actually learn how to control my internal environment, right? That's what you're talking about.

    18. KH

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      Have you got control of your autonomic nervous system? Basically, another, put another way, are you able to exercise control over your internal environment or not? That's kind of what it comes down to, doesn't it?

    20. KH

      For sure. Yes, exactly. And, and I think when you have control of your internal state and you can, um, bring yourself back into balance, it, it changes how you move through the world, right?

    21. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    22. KH

      It gives you a sense of agency, I think is maybe-

    23. RC

      Yeah

    24. KH

      ... is, is, I think the synonym to kind of control in a, in a way, and I think control comes with a lot of baggage, right?

    25. RC

      For sure.

    26. KH

      It certainly does for me. Um, I use it in the, in the book, but, but I, but I think I'm careful to, to make sure people understand that this is really at the end of the day about agency.

    27. RC

      Yeah, yeah.

    28. KH

      Having agency over your internal landscape, you know? And I open that chapter, Trust and Fear, with a poem that I wrote called Relinquishing.

    29. RC

      Beautiful.

    30. KH

      And... Thank you. And I... But, but I, you know, I, I wrote that because of this tension I have in my own life around uncertainty, and that in, and I write in that poem that that's, that's probably the, the, the price or the, the cost of the beauty, right, is, is this un- uncertainty. And when we shift our lens, that uncertainty is kind of a gift in, in a lot of ways. It's, it, it, it brings spontaneity, right? It, it's, we don't know what's gonna happen next.

  6. 15:45 – 27:33

    4 Habits to Improve Sleep and Stress

    1. RC

      behaviors-

    2. KH

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... that help us to help our autonomic nervous system.

    4. KH

      Yeah, yeah.

    5. RC

      So-

    6. KH

      It, it increased parasympathetic tone-

    7. RC

      Yeah, so tell us about that-

    8. KH

      ... and cardiorespiratory fitness

    9. RC

      ... tell us about that paper-

    10. KH

      Yeah

    11. RC

      ... because I think what I love about these four behaviors is that they are completely free of charge for people.

    12. KH

      They are democratically available and free.

    13. RC

      Exactly. So-

    14. KH

      Yeah

    15. RC

      ... let's talk about that.

    16. KH

      Um, and this paper, it was published in Sleep, um, which is a, you know, a premier journal in, in the, the field of sleep medicine and, um, so it's, it's really exciting. It was received, I think, uh, really well, it, because that these were just free behaviors, you know? And, and I... And to be able to kind of quantify the impact of the behaviors, uh, was, was exciting. And basically what I did is I put out a challenge to all the members on the WHOOP platform. I said, you know, "If you're interested in improving your autonomic nervous system and, um, if you're interested in maybe improving your sleep, I want you to give these four behaviors a try."

    17. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    18. KH

      So it basically invited them into this challenge, and we had 39,000 people sign up for this challenge. Um, and I just basically gave them r- the protocol for each behavior, and I said, "You can do all of them. You can do one of them. Try to do it as consistently as possible." And one was time-restricted eating, um, which is basically just consolidating your calories during the daylight. So I said, "Just pick 12 hours where you can eat all of your food, and just try to do that consistently." I-

    19. RC

      So not even 10 or 8 hours. Very manageable for most people.

    20. KH

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      That 12-hour eating window.

    22. KH

      Yeah, I mean, that's, you know, 7:00 to 7:00. That's, you know, that really gives you a nice chunk of time to get your calories in.

    23. RC

      Okay.

    24. KH

      Most Americans are eating around 15 hours-

    25. RC

      Yeah

    26. KH

      ... across the day, right? Usually right up to bedtime, which has, you know, there's a thermoregulatory effect of food, but there's also the circadian component. So there's kind of two competing-

    27. RC

      Mm

    28. KH

      ... issues that, um, ha- and having, end up having impact on your sleep and recovery. Um, but yeah, so basically 12-hour window you wanna give yourself. Um, I recommended a two to three-hour buffer between your last calorie and when you intend to sleep. Um, so if it's 8:00 to 8:00, you know, just kind of thinking about that in, in context of your bedtime. Um, and then the second behavior was morning sunlight. So just getting out, I said a minimum of five minutes. Um, so again, really doable, but just getting outside.

    29. RC

      Is, is that within 20 minutes of waking up?

    30. KH

      Within 20 min- That was the protocol, yeah. So within 20 minutes of waking up, getting outside for at least five minutes. Um, but if you could swing 20.

  7. 27:33 – 30:55

    Why Sleep-Wake Consistency Matters

    1. KH

      your friends. Um, as long as you can talk relatively comfortably, you're in zone 2.

    2. RC

      Yeah.

    3. KH

      Um, you don't want it to be so comfortable that, like, you know, it's just you and I kind of sitting here. Um, you want it to be, you know, not, not even, like, chall- just below challenging, I guess. You know? For me, it's just a slow jog. You know? And I just, I'm able to s- you know, talk comfortably and, you know-

    4. RC

      But it could be a brisk walk for some people

    5. KH

      ... it could be a brisk walk-

    6. RC

      Yeah

    7. KH

      ... with a vest, a weighted vest or something. Who knows? Yeah. Um, so, yeah.

    8. RC

      So, so what, what, what, what I like about those four behaviors is if I think about them through the lens of what I've been talking about for many years, which is these four pillars of health.

    9. KH

      Yeah, I love it.

    10. RC

      And I kind of feel each one speaks to a different pillar. Nutrition is dealt with with the time-restricted eating.

    11. KH

      Yes, yes.

    12. RC

      Eat all your food within a 12-hour window.

    13. KH

      Yeah.

    14. RC

      Movement is addressed with your zone 2 recommendation for, was it at least 30 minutes?

    15. KH

      Yes.

    16. RC

      Right. Relaxation or stress reduction is addressed through your breathwork.

    17. KH

      Mm-hmm.

    18. RC

      Right? And then sleep is kind of addressed counterintuitively-

    19. KH

      Yeah

    20. RC

      ... in some ways by morning light exposure, which helps you-

    21. KH

      Yep

    22. RC

      ... sleep better at night. So we're dealing with these core four pillars-

    23. KH

      Mm-hmm

    24. RC

      ... which I think is a really empowering message, because what I love about those is they're free behaviors.

    25. KH

      Yeah.

    26. RC

      Right? Most people, whoever they are, wherever they're listening to this, at the end of this episode could go, "Hmm, I wonder if I could bring those four free behaviors into my life."

    27. KH

      Yeah.

    28. RC

      Now, I framed it around the autonomic nervous system.

    29. KH

      Mm-hmm.

    30. RC

      But of course, you also mentioned that you had this hypothesis about the sleep-wake cycle.

  8. 30:55 – 44:01

    VO₂ Max: A Key Measure of Your Health

    1. RC

      would it be HRV?

    2. KH

      Well, I'd probably, I'd probably do VO₂ max.

    3. RC

      Really?

    4. KH

      Because it, that, like, that's also highly correlated with heart rate variability and resting heart rate, which is g- basically gives you a snapshot of your cardiorespiratory fitness, right? So it's, so I, I think with, with... HRV moves around a ton, right?

    5. RC

      Right.

    6. KH

      It's super sensitive, so it's, it's, um, you know, and, and VO₂ max obviously not something you're looking at every day. You could argue HRV, you're looking at it as a snapshot. Um, but I would say VO₂ max because that would give you a better, more specific way... You would know what you need to do in order to improve your VO₂ max, right? So if your VO₂ max is trending down, you're like, "All right, I need to run harder," essentially. I need to work my heart harder in order to improve my VO₂ max.

    7. RC

      Okay. So-

    8. KH

      So yeah, VO₂ max.

    9. RC

      That's interesting.

    10. KH

      Yeah.

    11. RC

      I wasn't necessarily expecting that. So that's-

    12. KH

      Yeah

    13. RC

      ... again, problems with expectations, right?

    14. KH

      Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    15. RC

      So, okay, that's super interesting, because I actually thought you might go for HRV and go-

    16. KH

      Well... [laughs]

    17. RC

      ... actually, this is, uh, one of the best markers of the overall functioning of our nervous system.

    18. KH

      Yeah.

    19. RC

      Which of course it is.

    20. KH

      It is.

    21. RC

      But I think, again, we're gonna have to explain what VO₂ max is-

    22. KH

      Mm-hmm

    23. RC

      ... for people who don't know. And then additionally to that, if someone has got a good VO₂ max, you know, and we can d-

    24. KH

      Mm-hmm

    25. RC

      ... you know, discuss what good might mean for someone's age, can we then assume that lots of other things-

    26. KH

      Yes

    27. RC

      ... are happening?

    28. KH

      I guess that's what I'm saying. It gives us-

    29. RC

      Like, like-

    30. KH

      Yeah

  9. 44:01 – 52:10

    Time-Restricted Eating Explained

    1. KH

      get, the less, the more sensitive our circadian rhythms are-

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. KH

      ... the less robust they are. And there's lots of variation between people, like, uh, within people. Like, it's, um, you know, so it's, it's n- certainly not one size fit all. You might have a more ro- robust circadian system. I might be more sensitive. I have to have that n- window be narrower. And people, when they start to self-audit, they'll recognize who they are, and then you gotta just create boundaries to protect that, right?

    4. RC

      Mm.

    5. KH

      Knowing that it impacts your health, how you show up the next day, whether or not you can live your values with joy and energy, right? [laughs] Like, these all kind of tie together, right? So yeah, so sleep-wake consistency, um, drives quality, which is really w- you know, the timeframe during sleep where you're restoring and regenerating. Um, and that is correlated, the, the extent to which you get sleep quality is correlated with, um, your autonomic nervous system-

    6. RC

      Mm

    7. KH

      ... health.

    8. RC

      Okay.

    9. KH

      So sleep quality really matters. Sleep consistency is the behavior that drives it. All the stuff, the four core behaviors we talked about can help get you to fall asleep and stay asleep, um, at a more consistent, you know, more consistently.

    10. RC

      So in essence-

    11. KH

      Yeah

    12. RC

      ... trying to lock in those four free behaviors has probably zero downside and a hell of a lot of upside, right? [laughs] Like, is that-

    13. KH

      I think it's a great... If people are starting from scratch, that is a great place to start.

    14. RC

      Yeah.

    15. KH

      You know, it's evidence-based. It's, you know, it's... And what we, what was really cool in the study is we were able, um, people continued with these behaviors after the study was over.

    16. RC

      Yeah. Well, then they're not, they're not difficult once you've locked them in.

    17. KH

      I know. Yeah.

    18. RC

      You know?

    19. KH

      And you start feeling good. You start to see the benefit.

    20. RC

      Yeah. One of the things I love about time-restricted eating-

    21. KH

      Mm

    22. RC

      ... and always have done, since Satchin Panda's early papers-

    23. KH

      Mm

    24. RC

      ... in I think, I think 2014 his first-

    25. KH

      Yeah

    26. RC

      ... mouse study came out, from recollection, is although he and other researchers are not saying, "Eat whatever you want," actually in some ways where people find it sometimes hard to make the right choices, some people say, "I can't afford healthy, nutritious foods," and I totally recognize that-

    27. KH

      Yeah

    28. RC

      ... as a case for some people, right? Time-restricted eating is available to everyone.

    29. KH

      Yeah.

    30. RC

      Right?

  10. 52:10 – 54:28

    The 80/20 Rule for Health and Recovery

    1. KH

      Mm.

    2. RC

      You know, that, that... You know, when you're at home, you can lock in these four behaviors probably-

    3. KH

      Yeah

    4. RC

      ... because you've set up your life around it, right?

    5. KH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. RC

      But can we adapt and be resilient when we're not in our environments?

    7. KH

      Yeah.

    8. RC

      Right? Which is, which I think is important as well-

    9. KH

      I think so, yeah

    10. RC

      ... because with the best will in the world, this consistent sleep-wake time, y- you know, you might be able to do 70%, 80%, 90% of the time, but you're gonna, you know, depending on who you are-

    11. KH

      Mm-hmm

    12. RC

      ... there may be times when you're working a late shift at work-

    13. KH

      Yeah

    14. RC

      ... or you have an evening concert you wanna go to.

    15. KH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. RC

      And you come back late, but you know what? You had such a blast at the concert, it was worth-

    17. KH

      100%

    18. RC

      ... the impact.

    19. KH

      Yeah.

    20. RC

      Like me, I literally, I'm, I'm on a, I'm on a high at the moment because my all-time favorite band, Bon Jovi, from a kid-

    21. KH

      [gasps]

    22. RC

      ... and I've seen them-

    23. KH

      I have talked to Bon Jovi before.

    24. RC

      The-

    25. KH

      His team.

    26. RC

      The-

    27. KH

      Yeah.

    28. RC

      Oh, there you go.

    29. KH

      I, I think I can say that.

    30. RC

      I've seen him with a WHOOP band before.

  11. 54:28 – 1:02:52

    How to Find Your Natural Sleep Rhythm

    1. KH

      phenomenon, you know, basically when you are, y- you know, oftentimes, like life, especially you're kind of getting ready for a vacation, like, you're trying to meet deadlines, you're trying to get everything buttoned up, and, you know, so your, your body's marshaling these defenses, right? And it's infinite wisdom to, you know, you know, kind of increase your immune, you know, get your immune system in- increased and, you know, cortisol and epinephrine. You've got all of this, like, you know, these energy hormones like, you know, kind of mobilizing. And then you go on vacation, and invariably your system lets down and you get sick, right? That is, to me, a indicator that you don't have the right sense of balance and proportion across your, your kind of day, week, month.

    2. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    3. KH

      So that's a good just kind of like gut check, you know. Do I get sick on vacation? When I let down after a big project, do I get sick? And if the answer is yes, you probably need to rethink your day-to-day.

    4. RC

      Mm.

    5. KH

      That doesn't mean you need to cut down your am- ambition, doesn't mean you need to cut down your obsession for, like, the thing that you're doing, but there, there... You wanna also be able to not have to deal with these setbacks, right? And sometimes those sickness can, can actually be a disease, right? If this is a chronic-

    6. RC

      Yeah

    7. KH

      ... kind of scenario where you are constantly in this state of demand mismatch, right? You've got-

    8. RC

      Mm

    9. KH

      ... your energy output and, um, and the demands on your time. When you are basically in a scenario where your demands, um, exceed your capacity, right, you end up getting sick.

    10. RC

      Yeah. You mentioned in the book that you have pretty much not been sick for eight years now.

    11. KH

      Yeah.

    12. RC

      Touch wood, yeah.

    13. KH

      Going strong. [laughs]

    14. RC

      Um, of course, there's multiple factors that are at play-

    15. KH

      Yes

    16. RC

      ... in terms of whether someone gets sick or not.

    17. KH

      Yes.

    18. RC

      But in your view-

    19. KH

      Mm-hmm

    20. RC

      ... why do you think you have become so resilient-

    21. KH

      Mm

    22. RC

      ... to, I guess, illness?

    23. KH

      Yeah, I mean, I, I think sleep-wake consistency. I kinda go back to that. That's the one big change. My- the last time I was sick was February 2017.

    24. RC

      Wow.

    25. KH

      I remember, I, yeah, I traveled to, to Penn State with one of my colleagues, Mike Lombardi, um, and we were working with the ice hockey team, and, um, yeah, and I, I was like, I said to Michael, I'm like, "Oh man, I'm, I'm getting sick," and, and sure enough, yeah, I ended up with a head cold. Um, and then that summer Andrew Phillips came out with a, a paper that basically was looking at what predicts GPA in Harvard students, and the greatest predictor of, um, of, of GPA was sleep-wake consistency, and he calls it sleep-wake regularity.

    26. RC

      And, and for people in the UK who don't know-

    27. KH

      Mm-hmm

    28. RC

      ... that's a GPA is your, your-

    29. KH

      Oh, sorry. Your grade point average. Sorry.

    30. RC

      Yeah.

  12. 1:02:52 – 1:07:34

    Stimulants and Better Sleep

    1. RC

      course, the, the bright light exposure-

    2. KH

      Right

    3. RC

      ... that we might be looking at-

    4. KH

      Mm

    5. RC

      ... in the evenings, yes, that has an impact. But it's also the, the-

    6. KH

      Yeah

    7. RC

      ... the, the constant stimulation.

    8. KH

      For sure.

    9. RC

      So we're not allowing that natural-

    10. KH

      Yep

    11. RC

      ... lull to fall into.

    12. KH

      Yeah.

    13. RC

      We're still trying to answer emails, whatever it might be.

    14. KH

      Exactly.

    15. RC

      Of course you can't sleep.

    16. KH

      Right, right. Like, your-

    17. RC

      You know?

    18. KH

      ... heart rate is gonna be activated, right? You're telling your body that it is time to be awake and ti- time to perform. As a result, you end up, those chemicals end up circulating-

    19. RC

      Yeah

    20. KH

      ... in your body, right?

    21. RC

      The biggest barrier to your health right now is probably not knowledge. It's action. You already know what's good for you, eating well, moving more, and managing stress, but knowing information is not the same as applying it day after day, especially if you're doing it by yourself. My name is Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, and I have more than two decades experience helping patients as a clinician, and now I'd love to help you take control of your health. When I surveyed more than 1,400 people after my recent 21-day energy reset, eight in 10 said that their energy had improved in just three weeks. That's the kind of change I know more people can experience when they're surrounded by like-minded people. This is why I created the membership Built to Thrive community. Each month, we focus on one area of health, broken down into daily habits with live Q&As, a private community of people on the same journey, and many more features that make this journey sustainable. If you think this is something that you would like to be a part of, just scan the QR code on screen or tap the first link in the description box below to join us. The thing I was-

    22. KH

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... I was mentioning before, the, the, one of the big things I've changed over the last couple of years is if I, which I don't very often anymore, but if I do have an evening event-

    24. KH

      Mm

    25. RC

      ... or a show that I'm doing or a live talk, I would, I used to eat when I got back to the hotel room, and it'd still be, you know, healthy food-

    26. KH

      Yeah

    27. RC

      ... in inverted commas.

    28. KH

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      But I, I felt like I had a hangover the next morning-

    30. KH

      Yeah

  13. 1:07:34 – 1:09:03

    Circadian Rhythm and Mental Health

    1. KH

      cycle, you create endogenous confusion. So if you get sick a lot, if you are struggling with symptoms, um, related to your menstrual cycle, perimenopause, menopause, like you just feel like you can't get... Start with your light diet

    2. RC

      Hmm

    3. KH

      Right? That's just a great place to start. Like, our body craves contrast. We want a lot of activity during the day. We want a lot of light during the day. We want food during the day. At night, we don't want light, we don't want food, we don't want activity. It's that simple

    4. RC

      Hmm

    5. KH

      And there's a paper that was just published looking exactly at this contrast, right? Individuals who have really bright nights and dark days struggle with their mental health

    6. RC

      Yeah

    7. KH

      Right? Like, this is not a secret, right? It's... But what's crazy is I say this online, it's like heresy

    8. RC

      Right

    9. KH

      I am being heretical, right? Like, people are... They come down on me like I'm, I'm suggest- like what I am suggesting is off the rails, and for me, that's a comment of actually how far off the rails modern society is

    10. RC

      Yeah. Because-

    11. KH

      [laughs]

    12. RC

      ... for 99.9% of our evolution, this was the norm

    13. KH

      If, if you look at-

    14. RC

      That, that's the crazy thing

    15. KH

      ... if you look at any timescale that matters, right? If you look at biology on the x-axis, the y-axis is just technology and just electric light, food access-

    16. RC

      Yeah

    17. KH

      ... like all of that, right? The delta is... Biology is flat. There's no change. We have not adapted or evolved to any of this

  14. 1:09:03 – 1:14:25

    Purpose, Values and Living in Alignment

    1. KH

      technolo- technological change. So there's a gap between our, the technological advancements and our biology, and that delta's here. And how we regulate our nervous system [laughs] to bring this full circle determines kind of how we manage modern life

    2. RC

      Yeah. But even if we go back to those four behaviors

    3. KH

      Mm

    4. RC

      Right? Now, you could argue the, you know, reducing stress through breathwork may not have been required for, for lots of cultures, let's say, 10,000 years ago.

    5. KH

      Yeah

    6. RC

      I, I don't know that to be true, but-

    7. KH

      Right

    8. RC

      ... perhaps. Perhaps they were naturally mostly in parasympathetic-

    9. KH

      Mm

    10. RC

      ... so relaxation state, punctuated by a little bit of sympathetic stress-

    11. KH

      Right

    12. RC

      ... now and again. The other three, they probably all had, right?

    13. KH

      Yeah

    14. RC

      They weren't eating 15 hours a day

    15. KH

      No

    16. RC

      It was probably less than 12.

    17. KH

      Yeah

    18. RC

      Right? Whether we call it zone two or low intensity-

    19. KH

      Yeah

    20. RC

      ... movement-

    21. KH

      Yeah

    22. RC

      ... they were 100%-

    23. KH

      Yeah

    24. RC

      ... moving their bodies every day

    25. KH

      Yeah. Women, seven miles; men, 10. Yeah, kilometers, sorry.

    26. RC

      Right

    27. KH

      Yeah

    28. RC

      And then they were getting morning light. They're not sitting around in a cave like, you know, scrolling their phone. They-

    29. KH

      Right

    30. RC

      ... like it's time to-

  15. 1:14:25 – 1:18:41

    How to Live in Line With Your Values

    1. KH

      the spiritual. Like, it's, it's all in us-

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. KH

      ... right? In the, in the sense of like it's there for us. It's like we just have to tap it, right? We have to just say, "All right, this is actually who I wanna be in the world." And I think to purpose is, is very much related to your identity, right? So figuring out who do I actually wanna be in the world. And I, and I take you in that chapter, I kind of take you through some exercises, and there's more in the workbook where people can kind of workshop on their own. Like, but I, I think that's a really fundamental question, right? Like, I wanna l- I wanna be a person who lives my values with joy and energy. That is my identity, right? And everything that I do during the day is gonna back into that identity.

    4. RC

      Mm.

    5. KH

      Now, identity doesn't have to be fixed, right? It's gonna evolve, especially like, you know, who my daughter is today, she's nine, you know, she's 18, is gonna be very different than probably who she is at 25. But kind of the core of who she is probably doesn't change that much, right?

    6. RC

      Mm.

    7. KH

      And, but, but I think in order for us to come to a conclusion around what is our purpose today, and how is that influencing how the choices I make today, is one of the most important, I think, um, exercises that you can engage in consistently. I think about my values every day.

    8. RC

      Mm.

    9. KH

      And I ask myself at the end of the day, when I look myself in the mirror, did I live my values today? And sometimes yes, sometimes no, you know? And but that's like the scorecard I keep, and that's the only one that matters to me. 'Cause if I can live my values, like everything else is gonna pretty much work out for itself, you know? And my mental health matters, my physical health matters, so if I look at myself at the end of the day and I didn't like move my body in the way that I needed to move my body, well, I know that I'm not living my values. I'm not being the person I aspire to be. I'm not creating the conditions to be the person I aspire to be.

    10. RC

      Mm.

    11. KH

      And that's really, I think when we're designing our life, right, we only get one. [laughs] We only get one. So when you're designing your life, you need to think about what are the conditions that I need to engage in across the day for whatever your value, whatever your identity is, for that to be true, what are, what do I need to engage in? And I go back to that principle of non-neutrality, like doing that exercise where you're really thinking about, all right, if, if this is my identity, does this behavior support it or does it detract from it?

    12. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    13. KH

      And then you start to see where you're sabotaging your own life. And so, you know, purpose, I think, is so powerful, I, and, and but it, it's, you gotta sit with it. And you need to figure out, okay, what does this actually mean, right? 'Cause that's gonna be driving your behaviors. It should be driving your behaviors.

    14. RC

      Yeah. It's so interesting, this stuff. Some people, um, will no doubt, Chris, will be thinking, "I, I, I don't know where to start."

    15. KH

      Yeah.

    16. RC

      Right? What, what, what do you mean my values? My, my-

    17. KH

      Yeah

    18. RC

      ... I've, I've got a job.

    19. KH

      Yeah.

    20. RC

      I need to go to my job.

    21. KH

      Yeah.

    22. RC

      I need to, um, you know, earn the money so I can pay-

    23. KH

      Yeah

    24. RC

      ... the bills, and getting through each day- [laughs]

    25. KH

      Yeah

    26. RC

      ... is a struggle. Is thinking about values important for that person as well?

    27. KH

      It, I mean, I, I think for everyone, right? Like, I think, I mean, you, we see it in the research, right? Like our long-term health is very much tied to our sense of purpose and meaning. And, and the thing is you, you don't just stumble upon meaning. You create it.

    28. RC

      Mm.

    29. KH

      You build it into your life. You know, what are the things that bring you actual joy? You know? And, and I think that's also one of the traps of modernity, like we don't actually have enough time with our own thoughts.

    30. RC

      Yeah.

  16. 1:18:41 – 1:22:23

    Kristen’s Personal Story Behind Aligned

    1. KH

      And I, and I think joy can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people, right? But that, and that's a good thing.

    2. RC

      Yeah.

    3. KH

      You know? Um, w- and then what are, in order for me to experience joy, if that's so- that's something that's important to me, what needs to be true about my day? All right. Well, what are the, who are the, what are the people and the, the outlets, right? Do I have those people and outlets in my life that all- that allow me to experience that joy? You know? So joy could be a value in of itself. You know? And, and m- do I have the skills and expertise? You know, maybe it's personal growth, right?

    4. RC

      Mm.

    5. KH

      Like, how do you... And when I talk about kind of the scaffolding around psychological health, right, it's peace, purpose, efficacy, um, autonomy, and connection, right? And the purpose, you wanna discover your identity, right, inside your purpose. Like who do I aspire to be in the world, right? And then that helps you back into your values-

    6. RC

      Mm

    7. KH

      ... which helps you have a purposeful meaning- ... meaningful life. Efficacy, do I have the skills and resources to do what's asked of me, right? So if you are not able to live your purpose, right, what kind of skills do you need to build?

    8. RC

      Mm.

    9. KH

      Right? If you know that energy is really important to you and you wanna be able to be alert during the day and be in a good mood, well, what does that ... What kind of skills do you need to build to make that happen?

    10. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    11. KH

      Maybe it's like, "I need to figure out how to work out. I need... In order to have more energy, I need to get fit."

    12. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    13. KH

      Right? [laughs] Um, or, you know, if you're getting sick a lot, or, you know, do you basically... What are the skills that I need to build? What are the resources I need to build? And that could also mean creating some boundaries in your life.

    14. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    15. KH

      And that's where, to skip to the connection piece, do people support who you wanna be in the world? You know, there's a lot of, I think, when we look around at the people in our life, there's a lot of people that don't actually deserve to be there. They're not worthy of us. They're not worthy of our time, right? They hurt us in ways that, um, uh, keep us from our, living our, our purpose, right?

    16. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    17. KH

      And, and so the, the, the quicker you can kind of, I think, um, refine your circle, the better, 'cause that also, you know, impacts the quality of your life massively, right?

    18. RC

      Yeah.

    19. KH

      So a lot of what I'm talking about is probably not additional stuff. It's actually subtracting stuff.

    20. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    21. KH

      And, you know, there's a, there's a quote by Naval Ravikant who, um, I think is, uh, it's great, and I, and I think about it in the context of, of peace. Um, "Desire's a contract you make with yourself to be unhappy until you get what you want." So it's not about more. It's about not having fuzzy desires, [laughs] right? Like, thinking about, like, "What do I actually need in my life-

    22. RC

      Mm-hmm

    23. KH

      ... to feel that sense of purpose and meaning? What needs to be true?" And oftentimes we'll find there's too much going on in our lives for us to actually focus on that, so we need to subtract-

    24. RC

      Yeah

    25. KH

      ... not add.

    26. RC

      Some of the best books, I think, are written when we have a real deep personal-

    27. KH

      Mm

    28. RC

      ... desire to, to learn about things that have affected us and how-

    29. KH

      Yeah

    30. RC

      ... to move on. And as you were talking then about how some people in our life don't deserve to be there-

  17. 1:22:23 – 1:26:12

    Forgiveness: How to Let Go of Anger

    1. RC

      Is this a personal book?

    2. KH

      Uh, very much so, yeah. I think one of the reasons why I wrote chapter one, The Alchemy of Adversity, is... And I, and I have gotten, you know, lots of messages from folks who are like, "I just assumed your life was perfect," [laughs] you know? And it wasn't, you know? And, and a lot of that struggle that was kind of the first half of my life, I think, gave me the ability to write this book, you know? 'Cause I had to figure it out for myself, or, you know, I was going down such a dark path [laughs] that if I didn't figure it out, like, I would not be here today. And, and so, you know, I had that own kind of moment of reckoning for myself where, you know, I, I need to... You know, I mean, forgiveness is, is a big piece of, of this puzzle, right? Like, I had an abus- you know, my grandfather abused me for 10 years of my life, [laughs] you know, and I needed to figure out, how do I move on from that? How do I not allow this to define me, you know? And, and knowing that, you know, my mom's struggle, my mom's pain, that was not my fault, you know? But a lot of the coping mechanisms that I had developed in response to that were maladaptive as an adult.

    3. RC

      Yeah.

    4. KH

      You know? I... You know, what was viewed on the outside as, gosh, you know, so ambitious, so, gosh, she's an athlete, an Olympian, and, you know, all of these things, you know? And I didn't have any joy. I could not access joy. And, and so I think for me, I, if, I wanted t- to hopefully accelerate people's wisdom around some of this stuff and to know that we are just in this together, right?

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. KH

      And, and I just think that this is, this is a short life, but it has the, the opportunity to be a beautiful life, you know, if we understand where to focus our attention, you know?

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. KH

      And, and, and what I try to outline in this book is just the basic principles, right? And you can take it in any direction that you wanna go, but these are the things based on certainly my life experience but also a lot of the evidence that exists in the, in the, in the science, you know, around our physiology and our psychology. You know, I'm standing on the shoulder of, of, of just incredible social psychologists and Edward Deci and Richard Ryan and Albert Bandura and, you know, Russell Foster and, you know-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. KH

      ... all these just scientists, right? You know, people like yourself who bring me inspiration every single day. And, and so this is an amalgam of kind of all of that work too on, on top of this deep personal experience. So, so long answer. Um, yes, it's, it's deeply personal.

    11. RC

      I mean, first of all, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry for what happened to you-

    12. KH

      Mm-hmm

    13. RC

      ... uh, when you were a child. Um, I feel, listening to you, and, you know, I followed your work for a few years. We spoke on this podcast, you know, two or three years ago. Um, reading the new book, you know, I, I think, I think it's clear that this is something that really matters-

    14. KH

      Mm

    15. RC

      ... and it's something that you've lived-

    16. KH

      Mm-hmm

    17. RC

      ... as well, which I think makes it a much more powerful book actually-

    18. KH

      Yeah

    19. RC

      ... because it's one thing to measure data and say, "Well, the data shows this, and the data shows that."

    20. KH

      Yeah.

    21. RC

      Okay. Great. And then on a human level-

    22. KH

      Mm

    23. RC

      ... there's this other aspect which is this is a lady who's been through it and I think has come out the other side-

    24. KH

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... and wants to share with people that you can also come out the other side.

    26. KH

      Yeah, you can.

    27. RC

      Y- you mentioned forgiveness there.

    28. KH

      Mm.

    29. RC

      And I, I think about and I have spoken about forgiveness-

    30. KH

      Mm

  18. 1:26:12 – 1:39:20

    Trauma, Fear and Trust

    1. RC

      Understandably, okay. Given what you just said about your childhoods-

    2. KH

      Mm

    3. RC

      ... you know, how do you think about forgiveness?

    4. KH

      Well, I just, I think for me, um, it was associated with just feelings of anger, you know, and resentment and, and I knew that if I didn't let go of that, it was gonna just continue to haunt me, you know? And, and it... I don't have to forgive, um, the actions, you know, but I needed to develop a perspective that allowed me to release the anger, um, that I felt, and the only path to that was to forgive. And when I was working with, um, I was at the University of Iowa at the time and, um, and I was working with a, a psychiatrist and I remember, um, you know, he, he, he said to me that, you know, we don't... You don't have to excuse or, um, you know, uh... It, it's, it's not... Forgiveness is not about saying what happened to you was, was, was right. Like, that, that's not-

    5. RC

      Mm

    6. KH

      ... what forgiveness is. It's releasing the hold that that has on you, you know? And-

    7. RC

      Yeah

    8. KH

      ... and so that was, that was the, the project for me was like, "All right. How do I actually get to a place..." And, you know, and, and in those conversations, like, it's stuff that I'd never talked about but, you know, my, my grandfather was, um, he was an Episcopalian priest actually. Um, but his whole life he, he was, uh, uh, adopted and bounced from foster home to foster home to foster home. You know, he was, he didn't have an easy life. He... and I... He probably went into the seminary to try to escape his demons, you know, and, and get, you know, who knows? But I, I, I just tried so desperately to look at that scenario from the lens of when he was a, a, a kid.

    9. RC

      Yeah.

    10. KH

      What happened to him, you know? And, and that helped me a lot, you know, and, and I, and I carry that forward, and I write about that in the book, just little things like someone cuts me off on the, you know, like, they're, like, maybe they had a hard day. Like, I just always-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. KH

      ... put myself in someone's shoes to, and assume the best. And I, and I think in, in today's world, like, we just tend to assume the worst.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. KH

      That's, like, our default, you know? And that's exhausting. Like, if you just assume best intentions generally... And I'm not telling people to be naive, right? You need to keep your head on a swivel, of course. But, but, but also, like, I think we're inherently good, and, and I have a wild belief in our capacity for good. And, and I, I just, yeah, I-

    15. RC

      First, uh, thank you. First of all, thank you for sharing. It, it, it's really beautiful. Um, beautiful and empowering I think what you just said for people. It, it, it also links back to how we started this conversation about the autonomic nervous system-

    16. KH

      Mm

    17. RC

      ... right? We think the worst of people when we don't have control of our autonomic nervous system. And of course, trauma-

    18. KH

      Mm-hmm

    19. RC

      ... there's a whole chapter on trauma in this book. Trauma leaves an imprint on the nervous system.

    20. KH

      Mm.

    21. RC

      Right? So it's, the nervous system's more likely to be reactive. You're more likely to think the, the person cutting you off-

    22. KH

      Yeah

    23. RC

      ... was doing it intentionally-

    24. KH

      I know

    25. RC

      ... even though it, it literally had nothing to do with you.

    26. KH

      It's the prediction mechanisms in your brain even.

    27. RC

      Yeah.

    28. KH

      Like, it's just wild. Yeah.

    29. RC

      Yeah. But, but, but even what you said about trying to understand your grandfather's life.

    30. KH

      Yeah.

  19. 1:39:20 – 1:42:01

    Happiness vs Joy: What’s the Difference?

    1. RC

      everywhere. I had flags. I literally... I, I w- I was just obsessed, right?

    2. KH

      Wow.

    3. RC

      I got... I saw my mom the other day. She's like, "Are you still doing that whole Bon Jovi thing?"

    4. KH

      Oh my God.

    5. RC

      Like, she's... Right?

    6. KH

      That's so cute. [laughs]

    7. RC

      You know, I've, I've seen them over 30 times in concert, right? I've been all over the world to watch them.

    8. KH

      Wow.

    9. RC

      And, you know, for may- for the last few years, I haven't listened that much, right? I started listening again last October because, you know, I got offered the chance to speak to Jon-

    10. KH

      Gosh

    11. RC

      ... on my show, which I was like... [laughs]

    12. KH

      Just incredible.

    13. RC

      And we had a beautiful conversation, and a big part of the story with, uh, Bon Jovi is that Jon has been losing his voice. He had an operation four years ago. He didn't know if he'd ever be able to sing again-

    14. KH

      Oof

    15. RC

      ... let alone perform again, and he has literally done three hours of rehab a day, five days a week for, for many years. I think three or four years.

    16. KH

      Jeez.

    17. RC

      Right? And Sunday night was really powerful because I think a lot of us felt nostalgia.

    18. KH

      Yeah, yeah.

    19. RC

      Right? A lot of us, you know, we grew up with that band.

    20. KH

      Mm-hmm.

    21. RC

      We never thought we were gonna see them again.

    22. KH

      Yeah.

    23. RC

      I never thought I'd see them again with Jon's voice sounding that good. I was like thinking, "What kind of work have you been doing to get-

    24. KH

      Yeah

    25. RC

      ... your voice back there-

    26. KH

      Gosh

    27. RC

      ... from nearly not having it?" And-

    28. KH

      It's incredible

    29. RC

      ... what's really interesting is that throughout the concert, I started to feel this joy within me that I haven't felt in years, Kristen.

    30. KH

      Wow.

  20. 1:42:01 – 1:49:56

    Love, Peace and Spirituality

    1. KH

      but she wrote a, a book called High Functioning Depression, and I interviewed her, um, maybe a year and a half ago now, but she's brilliant, and someone you should have on the podcast.

    2. RC

      Okay.

    3. KH

      I, I just, I love, I love the way she approaches things. But, uh, and she's so damn funny. She's hilarious, like the stuff she creates. I'm like, "How do you even do all this?" But anyway, High Functioning Depression. So that's basically like that anhedonia, like that feeling of just meh. Like, everyone on the outside... And I, I was a high-functioning, I'd had high-functioning depression for sure. This is self-diagnosed. This is not in the DSM, but, um, but I, I think sh- they're working toward that because I think so many people can identify with this idea that you are able to function really well in your day-to-day life. You might be a surgeon. You might be a high-performing athlete. You might be, you know, one of the best coaches in the country, whatever it is, but you cannot access joy. You have high-functioning depression. [laughs] And-

    4. RC

      Mm-hmm

    5. KH

      ... so I, I think to me, happiness can be felt whilst being depressed, and happiness is through kind of things like, that are external to you-

    6. RC

      Mm-hmm

    7. KH

      ... that bring you kind of that level of happiness. Joy, I think, is felt, from my perspective, it's something that's internal that you're accessing. Like, it is something that is with you that doesn't require actually anyone else necessarily.

    8. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    9. KH

      Like, it's kind of like this inside job of just this deep sense of peace, right?

    10. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    11. KH

      And I think that there's external things that can ignite that, like a Bon Jo- a Jon Bon Jovi concert-

    12. RC

      Mm-hmm

    13. KH

      ... right, can ig- ignite something inside you, but that is lived experience in you.

    14. RC

      Yeah.

    15. KH

      And, and it's, it's, so it's not Jon necessarily, right?

    16. RC

      Right.

    17. KH

      Like give yourself more credit I gue- I guess. And, and that's where I think we outsource our joy and, and kind of say, "Oh, it's that thing that's giving me the joy." No, it's like, it's your relationship to that thing-

    18. RC

      Yeah

    19. KH

      ... that you've created inside you, this, this internal compass, right, that, that is allowing you to access that joy. You know? And, and so I feel like it, joy is just a fundamentally different- ... lever, you know-

    20. RC

      Mm

    21. KH

      ... than, than happiness, in that it's something that you own and that you can cultivate within yourself-

    22. RC

      Yeah

    23. KH

      ... in ways that I think happiness is a little bit more elusive.

    24. RC

      Yeah. No, I love that. Yeah, I really like the, the way you put that. One of the other things I wanted to discuss with you i- is, it's in the chapter before, so it's all in this middle section about the architecture within, but there's a, a, a, a chapter on trauma-

    25. KH

      Yeah

    26. RC

      ... you know, uh, which you call The Past Is Never Past. And you write beautifully how, you know, loss of any sort-

    27. KH

      Mm

    28. RC

      ... uh, is not just emotional, it's an injury to the nervous system.

    29. KH

      Mm.

    30. RC

      And, and you have this HEAL framework, right, to help people, you know, think about the impact trauma's had and how they can move forward. H-E-A-L, heart, energy, autonomy, and love.

  21. 1:49:56 – 1:55:12

    Where to Start With Lasting Change

    1. RC

      um, it's-

    2. KH

      We are aligned

    3. RC

      ... synchronicity. It starts to happen now, right?

    4. KH

      Yeah.

    5. RC

      But you talk about lovingkindness meditation, right? You say that it often begins with the quiet repetition of a simple, heartfelt phrase.

    6. KH

      Mm-hmm.

    7. RC

      "May I be safe. May I be healthy."

    8. KH

      May I have ease. [laughs]

    9. RC

      "May I live with ease." Right? And you, you, you do it with yourself, then to-

    10. KH

      Mm-hmm

    11. RC

      ... people in your community, then sometimes you can extend it to people you don't like or you've had an issue with.

    12. KH

      Mm-hmm.

    13. RC

      And that is really powerful.

    14. KH

      It's so... I can't even underscore how, like, it-

    15. RC

      It's, it's wonderful.

    16. KH

      [laughs]

    17. RC

      And then you, you write this, okay? "This meditative focus," we're talking about lovingkindness meditation-

    18. KH

      Mm-hmm

    19. RC

      ... "activates the parasympathetic nervous system, reduces stress reactivity, and improves heart rate variability."

    20. KH

      [laughs]

    21. RC

      "Frederickson and colleagues found that regular lovingkindness meditation practices increase the tone of the vagal nerve, the body's primary pathway for calm and social connection." And you, you just keep going on.

    22. KH

      [laughs] I-

    23. RC

      The point being, living with an open heart-

    24. KH

      Ugh

    25. RC

      ... and loving yourself and others-

    26. KH

      Builds resilience

    27. RC

      ... it's good for you. [laughs]

    28. KH

      Yeah, it's good for you. It really is.

    29. RC

      Right?

    30. KH

      Yeah. [laughs]

Episode duration: 1:55:23

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