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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

"Running Is Bad For Your Knees Is A Myth" - Protect Your Joints & Transform Your Life | Helen Hall

Today I’m thrilled to welcome my dear friend, Helen Hall back to the podcast. Helen is a movement therapist, a running coach, a pain expert and one of the best coaches in any modality that I have ever come across.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostHelen Hallguest
Mar 13, 20242h 36mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 4:14

    Why “running is bad for your knees” doesn’t add up

    1. RC

      To start off this conversation, I wanted to talk about, you know, a common myth that's out there, right? Or what I think is a myth.

    2. HH

      Which one? [laughs]

    3. RC

      Which one? Is running bad for our knees?

    4. HH

      Oh, that one. Yeah. Well, of course, uh, it's in the context of how you're going about doing your running. You might be being mean to your knees, but the question is, why are you running like that, which might be mean for your knees? Running per se cannot be bad for your knees. I can't remember the last time I've ever-- I've had people come in to see me with knee pain on both sides, but it's never symmetrical. One's always worse than the other. It can change between the knees, and, uh, one has a tendency to start before the other. So given the fact that you're not hopping, you're running, and for every left stride there's gonna be a right stride, it, it seems odd that knees get such a bad rap, that the advice out there is to, uh... "Oh, you got knee pain, um, when you run or after you run, stop running." Maybe rather than say, "Stop running, and it's bad for you," look at how you're running, and even more importantly, what happens when you walk. Are you taking how, uh, your movement patterns are from your walking into your running? And running is just the tipping point of impact, so there's more impact forces when we run compared to walking. So is it just that that is the, um, the, the negative in terms of knee pain? So they're walking, y- but the knee isn't particularly happy when they're walking.

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. HH

      But they're not noticing it until they're running.

    7. RC

      And if we zoom out for a minute-

    8. HH

      Yeah

    9. RC

      ... and if we, if we assume that running is bad for your knees just for a moment as a thought experiment, then it would stand to reason that every runner gets knee pain, right? If running is bad for your knees, you know, or you should say the vast majority of people running should be experiencing knee pain at some point. But, A, I don't think that's the case.

    10. HH

      Y- y- yeah, correct.

    11. RC

      B, from my understanding of talking to people who have gone and lived with hunter-gatherer tribes, who have studied them, done research on them, we know that many adults in these tribes in their sixties and seventies are running regularly quite long distances, and from what I understand, they're not complaining of knee pain. So that's a long-winded way of sort of saying many people can run without knee pain. So to me it seems it can't just be the running that's causing it if we assume, which I don't assume, but if we did assume that running is bad for our knees. So you're quite clear then, running is not bad for our knees.

    12. HH

      It's-- It makes no sense to me that running is bad for your knees. I've run all my life, and, uh, N equals one, and knee pain has, has never been a feature. So, uh... And I, I work with so many different, uh, different types of athletes and, and just non-athletes, and it's not knee pain that they suffer from, it's maybe ankle sprains or IT band syndrome or piriformis syndrome, and they're evidence if every time they run their knee hurts, k- running is bad for your knees. But it- it's, it's generally speaking only one knee.

    13. RC

      So for that individual who is getting knee pain when they're running, I guess a more accurate statement for that person might be, "When I run in the way that I currently do, I'm experiencing pain in my knee."

    14. HH

      Yes. And the question is why.

    15. RC

      Why?

  2. 4:14 – 6:27

    The knee as a “sandwiched” joint: look above and below

    1. HH

      Yeah. So it's just-- It's, it's don't stop running, find out why the knee is upset. It's the biggest joint in the body. People think that the hip is the biggest joint in the body. The knee is enormous, and the top of, uh, sorry, the top of the shin bone is like a big tabletop for the thigh bone to, to roll around on it and access all the different shapes that you need. And it's a quite stable joint. It only moves in two dimensions, or it should only move in two dimensions, and it's above a joint that only moves in one dimension, the ankle joint. But the problem is it's sandwiched between the ground, which is-- has 33 joints articulating with it in the foot, and the hip joint, which moves quite a lot in three dimensions, which is attached to the pelvis, which moves really quite a lot in three dimensions. So you, you look above and below that particular joint that hurts and think, "Well, maybe something is happening above or below or both that is negatively affecting the way that knee can manage."

    2. RC

      In, in, in our first chat, Helen, one thing we spent a bit of time talking about was this idea that the site of the symptom is not always the cause. And I think I drew the analogy to medicine, like sometimes your eczema, for example, which is an issue with the skin, is actually coming from your gut.

    3. HH

      Mm.

    4. RC

      And it sounds like you're saying the reason why this myth, or one of the reasons why it has been perpetuated and it's regarded as a truth by many, is because many people actually do experience knee pain when they run. That is true. You would agree with that?

    5. HH

      Yes.

    6. RC

      But it doesn't necessarily mean that running is the cause of the knee pain, and I think what you're saying is that the knee is in between some very, very significant joints, both above and below, and often there's an issue somewhere else, but your knee is taking the strain.

  3. 6:27 – 8:27

    “Where is your head?”: posture as the hidden driver of many pains

    1. HH

      Yes. It's, generally speaking, in my experience, it's being overloaded. It's, it is the th- the, the area that is bearing the brunt of either non-movement somewhere else or an overload. And you can go as far as you want. You can go all the way to the ground to the feet, and you can go all the way up to, um, my, my little soapbox area, the head. So if somebody's got knee pain, I'm always wondering where their head is. It'll be my first thought, "I wonder where their head is." I wonder if they even know where their head is, because so many people have written in since that first c- podcast conversation saying, uh, they solved their knee pain by, uh, paying attention to where their head was, discovering it wasn't perched effortlessly on the top of their head. It didn't just make their running easier, it solved their knee pain. So it's, their running is easier and pain-free.

    2. RC

      One of the things which landed the most with people during our first conversation was this idea that if your head's not on right, nothing good's gonna happen.

    3. HH

      Yeah.

    4. RC

      Right?

    5. HH

      Yeah.

    6. RC

      So I want us to go into some new areas in today's conversation compared to last time, but I do think that's such an important point, that we should reiterate that for people who have never heard it before, right? So I think a lot of people are aware that for a variety of reasons, maybe our sedentary lives, maybe our smartphones and our laptops, that, you know, our necks are often, or our heads are jutting out.

    7. HH

      Mm.

    8. RC

      Right? We're no longer... I mean, if someone takes a side on view and takes a photo, for a lot of people, they'd probably be quite shocked at what their posture is doing. How does that affect movement? I'm trying to take this away from running. How does it also affect walking? You know, why is it important that your head is on right?

  4. 8:27 – 16:01

    Why the head matters: sensory systems, balance, and load

    1. HH

      Yeah. So it's heavy. It's really heavy. On average, an adult head weighs about five kilos, on average, and the further forward it is, there's a mass management, uh, effect going on in the rest of the body. So our entire being from when we are born as a blob, uh, to within, within three months, we need to have head control. So when, uh, when the baby is pulled towards the person via their arms-

    2. RC

      Mm

    3. HH

      ... the baby should have control of the head and the head should come with. So it's all about this precious commodity, our sensory headquarters, and I always say no pun intended, but I, I always love it that it is sensory headquarters. It, it is... If, if we are upright on two little feet, which are very mobile, 66 joints down there, a quarter of the bones in the body, they are designed to be flexible adapters and rigid levers. So they're busy down there on the ground helping s- us stay balanced and propelling us forward at whatever speed we want, where our head, sensory headquarters, is so far away, in you a very long way away, in some not quite so far away, but it's still relatively far away. So the whole process of our movement patterning is, uh, to get from A to B in however, which- wh- whichever speed we want to do, without face planting, without falling backwards, without falling to the side. So our vestibular system-

    4. RC

      What does that mean, vestibular system?

    5. HH

      Vestibular, it's our inner ear mechanics informing us of where we are in space, our orientation.

    6. RC

      So, so it helps with balance.

    7. HH

      Yeah. So if you go... I always think if we go to an extremity, um, at one extreme, it's easier to understand everything. So the person who has no vestibular control, they think they're falling all the time. So they could be spread-eagled on the ground and think that they are still falling. It's a, a, a h- horrendous condition because you can't move. So our vestibular system, our, our inner ear mechanics, um, help our head understand where we are in space. Our visual fields help our head understand where we are in space, and our proprioceptive system, which is, uh, all the muscle spindle cells and the t- cells, special cells in the tendons and the, the joint capsules, which inform us on how our limbs are moving, how fast they are-

    8. RC

      Mm

    9. HH

      ... all the forces to help us move around, because we're movement animals, without causing ourselves injury and without falling over. So our movement should be non-injurious, and with anything that makes sense to me, w- we're not so badly made that we should be injuring ourselves every time we move. We, we move, and we are moving without face planting. We're moving without pain, without injury, and without face planting, because of everything that's happening up here in the head. So the head is heavy, and there was an old, uh, way, wh- which was quite fairly accurate, of understanding the effect of forward head postures. And if the forward head has a tilt, then you've got an asymmetrical load to the left or to the right as well. So your, for every inch, this is old school, for every inch further forward that your head would be if it was perched effortlessly on its head with maximum movement potential, you add the weight of another head.

    10. RC

      Hold on. For every inch forward your head is compared to what might be, you know, biomechanically optimum, let's say- You're effectively having the weight of another head, and you're-- you've already said that heads are very heavy. The average head is around five kilos, so that's a lot of weight to be adding onto your body. It's a, it's a lot of load, isn't it?

    11. HH

      Yeah. And then the new science coming through adds a little bit more detail. So our, our neck, our neck spine, it sort of returns-- It has a curve inwards, but it, it ends up fairly upright at the end so that the head can perch nicely on top, and we can move it around easily, and we don't notice the weight of our head. If the end of your neck isn't returning to vertical and is leaning forward by fifteen degrees, this five-kilo weight is now-- its, its effective load through the neck spine and then through the rest of the body is now twelve kilos. You have that angle at thirty degrees, and now the effective load of the head is eighteen kilos. Thirty degrees I measure regularly. So that-- So people come in telling me that they've got weak glutes and weak core, and if they've got a forward head, they are epically strong, but they just don't realize-

    12. RC

      Yeah

    13. HH

      ... how much energy they're wasting hanging onto their head.

    14. RC

      Yeah. There's a couple of points here for me. You have been doing this for three or four decades. People are coming to see you when they're desperate, when they've tried everything else. And as well as your clinical expertise, you've also got your machine, Doris-

    15. HH

      Doris

    16. RC

      ... whi- whi- which we can talk about again, um, at some point. But you can very accurately measure what's going on in people's spine, and you're saying you regularly see people with a thirty-degree, um, you know, position of the head relative to the rest of the body, and that's adding an extra eighteen kilos effectively load onto that body.

    17. HH

      Yeah.

    18. RC

      Now, just for anyone who's-- needs another way of hearing that, just imagine you're going out for your walk with eighteen kilos in your backpack.

    19. HH

      Exactly.

    20. RC

      You would feel that.

    21. HH

      Yeah. It-- That's heavy.

    22. RC

      Well, if you think about what is a luggage allowance-

    23. HH

      That-

    24. RC

      ... typically on a plane, right?

    25. HH

      That's exactly what I was thinking.

    26. RC

      It's like twenty kilos. Tw- or, you know, EasyJet allow twenty-three kilos as their luggage, right?

    27. HH

      And look at the struggle people have lifting that up.

    28. RC

      One of the reasons I love your approach so much, Helen, is it's very holistic, right? It's about this idea that nothing in the body moves in isolation. The way something moves has an impact on something else. And I guess what you're saying is that whatever problems you might be having, knee, back, hip, foot, if your head is forward, before you get into the weeds, maybe it's worth looking at your head posture or your head position.

    29. HH

      It's often the elephant in the room because it's, uh-- if, if any of the following appear, um, on the, uh, the list of, uh, "Please, can you help me with neck pain, shoulder pain, between the shoulder blades pain, mid back pain, lower back pain, uh, piriformis syndrome, glute pain, hip pain, knee pain, calf strain, repetitive calfs- calf strain, plantar fasciitis, knee pain," any of those, I'm thinking, "I wonder where their head is." So pretty much I'm wondering where people's heads are on a daily basis-

    30. RC

      Yeah

  5. 16:01 – 17:52

    Spinal extension and “maximum movement potential”

    1. HH

      Y- Often it does. If it's forward enough, it will be relevant. And, and it will be relevant because if it's forward enough, it has an effect on the spine. It, it makes the spine curve into a C. It's like imagine a Christmas tree decoration that's too heavy for its branch, and it bows the branch over. When our spine isn't in extension, so, um, upright, not, not deportment, uh, "I'm perfect" with a book on my head-

    2. RC

      Although I'm already starting to sit more upright-

    3. HH

      [laughs]

    4. RC

      ... as you, as you just said that. [laughs]

    5. HH

      It's-- Our spinal extension offers us m- maximum movement potential. Upright gifts us the potential to move more in all planes of motion where that joint has more than one plane of motion. As soon as we flex our spine, as soon as we go into the slouch position, we have that same three-dimensional movement, but the range is less, so our movement potential is less. So then people get stuck in their movement patterns. They can't get out of, uh, whatever bias they have. Their head is forward enough to flex the spine, to effectively slouch the spine, to bend the spine over like a Christmas tree branch that's got this decoration that's too heavy, and now their, their movement range is limited, but they still want to run faster. So they're, they're pushing their ranges of motion with a spine that won't actually enable. As soon as the spine is more extended, because it can be, then you can have automatically a bit bigger range of motion without, without trying, without pulling things, without stretching yourself into a bigger range of motion.

  6. 17:52 – 21:58

    Efficiency over effort: moving faster without trying harder

    1. RC

      Yeah. But for me, in our first conversation, Helen, I summarized the two main essences that I get from your approach. One, which is noticing and being and enhancing the awareness, your own awareness of what your body is doing, okay? And the second sort of principle is about efficiency. How can we move more efficiently? Now, that's relevant to every single person who is alive, right? Because doesn't matter whether you're a runner or not, we all move. We all-- We- even if it's just to move to your car, move from your car to the seat at your office. You're still moving your body, and the more efficiently you can move your body, the better. Why would you not want more efficiency? And more efficiency is usually going to result in less pain, depending on the cause of the pain. So I, I really like that idea of efficiency, and it, and it, it speaks to what you're talking about with the head. So many runners, particularly at this time of year-

    2. HH

      This is the time

    3. RC

      ... when, you know, people might have a marathon, or the weather's starting to get lighter, and they're excited about moving into spring and summer. You know, they're trying to get out there and push harder to get faster. I did talk about some of those concepts with Steven Sider a few weeks ago, uh, the sports scientist professor from Norway. Just a wonderful conversation about how often we need to not push as much, basically. But I guess what I've experienced with you is moving quicker without trying. So you've improved my efficiency, my posture, all these things, and so I'm actually finding, or I feel I'm putting out the same effort, but I'm walking quicker. I'm running faster, but I'm not trying to.

    4. HH

      Yes. Uh, I don't know if it's because I'm innately lazy, uh, or I simply want to adventure further. So if I want to go further, I better make sure that every movement I make is as easy as possible. So people, as a for instance, they'll do an ultra, but they'll, they'll pack their poles away until they're tired. And I'll say, "No, no. Keep the poles out. Start using them right from the get-go." Because with effective use of poles, whether you're walking or running, it doesn't matter, you can take 75% of the body weight off your knees.

    5. RC

      Mm.

    6. HH

      There's a nice big clue for knees. The Finns did an amazing study quite a few decades ago, and they could get post-cardiac surgery patients back to moving more quickly to help the healing, to help strengthen the heart again, by using poles, because it became a whole body activity.

    7. RC

      Mm.

    8. HH

      Instead of their upper body being a sack of potatoes on their pelvis, instead of the upper body sagging and poorer circulation around the heart, uh, making life, making the heart pump harder and making life harder for legs, making exercise harder, making people not want to do it, with poles, the whole body starts to move, the arms start to engage, the, the... Now the upper body is dynamic. You're not a sack of potatoes on the pelvis. Now you're slightly more extended, so there's more circulation around the heart. And they had massive improvements in the outcomes for the, uh, surgery, cardiac surgery patients, and, as a sort of a accidental side effect of, uh, better movement patterns, a lot happier knees. Because these older, older patients generally with the, uh, chronic heart disease, they... it didn't just have chronic heart disease. They had other things-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. HH

      ... like arthritis of knees. So lots of people want to run, but they, they can't get to that next stage without things hurting. So it's not the running that's causing the pain, that they, they're already in trouble even just moving around.

  7. 21:58 – 24:20

    Ego and endurance: why people resist walk-run strategies

    1. RC

      I want to talk about ego, right? And you must see this a lot.

    2. HH

      I feel it a lot, too. [laughs]

    3. RC

      You feel it a lot. Yeah, you're a human being, right?

    4. HH

      Yeah, we all suffer from ego.

    5. RC

      But you said that a lot of ultra runners, and first of all, perhaps for people who don't know what an ultra is, could you just expand what is an ultra?

    6. HH

      Well, it's anything beyond a marathon, uh, but the purists will, will have you believe that, well, you must have hit 30 miles. Uh, it can't be, 26.3 miles would be technically-

    7. RC

      Okay, so a-

    8. HH

      ... an ultra

    9. RC

      ... so a marathon's 26.2.

    10. HH

      Yeah.

    11. RC

      Technically, anything above that-

    12. HH

      Yeah, is an ultra

    13. RC

      ... is an ultra, but people in the, in the business, as it were, don't really consider it an ultra till it's 30 miles.

    14. HH

      Yes.

    15. RC

      Okay.

    16. HH

      And, and more.

    17. RC

      So you just said that in ultras a lot of people won't use their poles until they're tired.

    18. HH

      Mm.

    19. RC

      Now, it's really interesting, because I think ego gets in the way of humans achieving their potential in all things in life. So let's take movement for a minute. That's one example. And of, of course it may not just be ego then. There may be other reasons. But I'm sure for some of them, they will consider it, "Well, that's cheating. You know, I'm not gonna do that until I absolutely have to," right? There's run-walk strategies.

    20. HH

      Oh, that's a big one.

    21. RC

      Right? For, frankly, parkrun, half marathons, marathons, but people seem to have this reluctance. They think it's doesn't count unless you run the entire way. Now, I've learnt a lot about run-walk through my work with you over the last, what, over four years now, Helen, but you still hear this stuff. You know, "I'm not gonna run a marathon. I'm not gonna do a marathon unless I can do the whole thing, unless I can run the whole way." But if we make the evolutionary case for running, and we think about humans as persistent hunters, right, we weren't r- yeah, sure, we could cover 20 miles, but we weren't running the entire way. You know, we were tracking an animal. We'd run a little bit, then we'd stop, we'd have a look, we'd, we'd probably hide, whatever it might be, right? So I don't know. Talk to me about ego and how that gets in the way of people reaching their full movement potential.

  8. 24:20 – 36:28

    Case study: qualifying with walk-run after an Achilles problem

    1. HH

      I worked with a lovely lady who she needed to get a certain time at the London Marathon to qualify for world championships.

    2. RC

      Okay, so a good runner-

    3. HH

      So, uh-

    4. RC

      She's going for the world championships

    5. HH

      ... uh, well, i- in her age group. So that's not to dismiss her achievements at all. She was a regular person. She wasn't an elite athlete. She's not a pro athlete. She just loved her running.

    6. RC

      Okay.

    7. HH

      And she was going to be able to, uh, for her age group, qualify for world champion of... And it wasn't in marathon running, it was just, uh, an activity, running activity, and she just needed this, um, this time, and the time was, uh, four hours 30 minutes, which is a ni- it is a reasonable time. Um, and she was 60 years old.

    8. RC

      Okay.

    9. HH

      So it's, so it's... To put it in context, so there's an age group, and this is a, a reasonable time. It's not super fast, and it's not slow.

    10. RC

      But four hours 30 is a, yeah, it's a pretty good going time-

    11. HH

      It's a, yeah

    12. RC

      ... you would say for a 60-year-old.

    13. HH

      So for, uh... I would be thrilled if I did, uh, a marathon in that time, uh, now. So it is, uh, there's always context, and there's always, um... If you Google average times, Google will put us into a very bad place when we talk about, uh, what we should be doing. Again, we're, it, this is ego. So anybody who finishes a marathon is completely brilliant because it's a very long way. [laughs] And those that finish it in a short time, uh, as we've said before, uh, the party bus is at the back, the heroes are at the back because they're out for so much longer. The, the ones who are done and dusted in all endurance events in the shortest time, yes, they work, they work harder. Well, and it's, it's not even they don't work harder, they're more capable. They get the job done quicker. They may be more efficient, and actually, it's the people at the back that are working hardest of all because they've got more repetitions, and they're getting, they're getting more and more and more fatigued.

    14. RC

      Mm.

    15. HH

      So that's to caveat, uh, anybody who gets upset that four thirty is unreasonable. For some, that would be, you know, the pinnacle, but it has to be in the context of what we're talking about.

    16. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    17. HH

      So with this lady, she needed that time to qualify, and she had an Achilles injury, and she hadn't been able to train, and the, the marathon was now two weeks away, and she'd all but given up hope. So we looked at why she had an Achilles problem. It, it wasn't a difficult problem. Um, but she hadn't done enough training. And I said, "Right. Okay, well, do the, put this stimulus in to help, um, the Achilles." The Achilles was being overburdened. Uh, there was nothing wrong with the Achilles. She was leaning on it. So she was, she was only leaning that way towards that side.

    18. RC

      Yeah.

    19. HH

      So the other side was basically having a bit of a holiday. So we put input in to help her get to more upright viewed from the back. Uh, so she wasn't leaning forward, she was leaning to the side. And so that alleviated the load of the Achilles, and then she said, "Well, but I can't, you know, I can't, I've... Uh, the furthest I've run was 11 miles, and that was months ago." And I said, "Right. Okay, so we walk-run. Don't worry about it. So, uh, do repeat that 11 miles, but let's do a walk-run strategy. So every, uh, let's..." And we worked it out with, um, how she felt. So we experimented a bit while she was with me, and I think we started with a three-minute, um, run and a one-minute walk. And she was golden. She went off that weekend, and she completed 11 miles. She hadn't run for about three months. She completed 11 miles with amazing alacrity because she didn't feel tired at all at any point, even though she hadn't been, done any training, and there was no Achilles pain. And I said... And she said, "Well, of course, there's only, uh, now one weekend left. Uh, I, I, I, I feel as if you're going to tell me I should just relax and rest, but my brain won't let me. I will stress." And so there's always this weighing up. Yes, for some people, a taper, uh, starts quite far back, and you just keep them moving. For others-

    20. RC

      Can you just explain what taper means?

    21. HH

      So when you, when you've peaked, uh, for whatever event you're doing, you've, you've done all of your training, and now you're resting your body so that you start when you're on the start line fresh, and you're not, uh, tired.

    22. RC

      Yeah.

    23. HH

      So many people arrive on the start line, and they're tired, and this is, um, this is overtraining, and it's, it's, it's often, uh, the precursor to an injury. So by all, by all logic, she should have rested. Should have. But her body would have been in such a state of nerves and anxiety because of the worry that she hadn't done enough, that for her brain space, for her, for her mental calmness, she needed to go out the following weekend.

    24. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    25. HH

      And so I said, "Okay, so if you're gonna go out, go with, um, less running and more walking." So, uh, from memory, I think she flipped it, so I think it was maybe two-one. Anyway, it was less, and she completed 17 miles.

    26. RC

      Two minutes running, one minute walking.

    27. HH

      Yeah.

    28. RC

      Something like that.

    29. HH

      So just, yeah, something like that. It was, it was less than before simply because we needed to make sure that she wasn't instantly going into overtraining.

    30. RC

      And was she resistant to doing walk-running? 'Cause I know you've had clients before who were very resistant. Was she resistant or-

  9. 36:28 – 59:18

    Why walk-run works: recovery while moving and avoiding fatigue spirals

    1. HH

      longer it takes, the better it is. I've been out having a longer adventure, having more fun, more bang for buck as far as I'm concerned. So I'm very happy to be out all day, and as long as I'm not getting lost, which is very common, but that's beside the point. So- You're out all day, you're enjoying yourself, and you're recovering on the hoof. And the science has now caught up with what the endurance athletes have always known, that you think you can't take another running step, you walk for a bit, and suddenly you can run again. So you walk-run. In, when you're off-road, the terrain tends to, uh, put you into, uh, the ability or the common sense to walk that hill, which you would expend way too much energy running if you were to run it when you've still got a very long way to go. So endurance athletes doing an ultra will walk sections where they know that if they ran it, it would be inefficient because they would be more tired. They can get to the top of the hill with less energy if they walk and sometimes faster than if they ran. I have overtaken uphill runners when I've been walking because, because they're so tired, but they're wanting to do, th- run this every step.

    2. RC

      It doesn't count unless you, you ran it.

    3. HH

      Yeah.

    4. RC

      It's re- it is-

    5. HH

      Yeah

    6. RC

      ... it's funny to think where that came from.

    7. HH

      So, um, the amazing book Endure, uh, by Alex Hutchinson, the science has caught up and has told us that we are recovering. Our muscles are literally healing whilst we're walking, not when we've stopped and put our feet up and had an ice bath or a, or a, uh, Epsom salts bath or whatever, whatever rocks your boat. You are recovering and healing whilst you are walking. So you can still be making progress within your body, making progress in the event whilst putting one foot in front of the other. So don't stop, don't stop and stretch. Walk. Walk it out. If something hurts, go into a walk. If you feel tired, go into a walk. The answer is always keep moving. Go into a walk and see what happens.

    8. RC

      I mean, you've had athletes, haven't you, break four hours at marathons or three and a half hours, even those sort of times using run-walk strategies.

    9. HH

      Yes.

    10. RC

      Which I think people who are in the running world would, would go, "Really? What, really?" But-

    11. HH

      Because your average pace remains high.

    12. RC

      Yeah, you don't get that sudden fatigue where it all starts to go downhill at the end.

    13. HH

      Yeah, which is less speed for more effort, the epitome of inefficiency.

    14. RC

      Yeah. You know, I often talk about, uh, the impact of chronic stress on the bodies, and the way I often explain it is through the lens of something I call the stress threshold, right? So assuming that you wake up fully rested and calm, and you are, you know, you're feeling good, right? You're quite far away from your stress threshold. But throughout the day you accumulate lots of doses of stress, what I call micro stress doses, and bit by bit they're getting you closer and closer. And at some point, the last hit of micro stress takes you to and beyond your stress threshold, which is when, you know, you shout at your partner, you snap at your kids, your back goes into spasm, your neck goes, whatever it might be, and we think it was the last thing that happened that was the problem. But it wasn't the last thing that happened. It wasn't the email you got at Friday at 4:00 PM. It was the fact that you'd been getting closer and closer to your stress threshold. So when I hear you talk about run-walk strategies for, you know, anyone frankly who wants to go on a hike in the hill at the weekend, or they want to do a marathon or a little adventure, whatever it might be, that's the thing, isn't it? If you think about it through a workday, if work was really busy, 9:00 until 11:00, you're accumulating stress and tension. If you were able to take a 15-minute walk around the block at that point, you just decompress a little bit. So you're, you're staying, you're constantly doing something that's keeping you away from your stress threshold. But if you work through, work through lunch without a break, you're gonna be much more reactive and problematic in the afternoon. It's the same kind of thing, isn't it?

    15. HH

      It's a great analogy. Uh, it's a really good analogy because if you keep going, if you keep running because you think that you should be running because you've gone for a run, if you keep running, you will fatigue. Everybody will fatigue at some point. Even Kipchoge will fatigue at some point. But by backing off that different gait pattern where everything comes off the ground and now you have energy expenditure in shock absorption because you've got more landing forces to mass manage, so, and you're landing on a little itsy bitsy bit of foot and propelling off that same itsy bitsy bit of foot, whereas when you're walking, there's always one, uh, there's always one foot in, in contact with the ground. You're never free of the ground. So if you keep going, you will fatigue, and then you've fatigued. So now-

    16. RC

      And that's when injuries happen.

    17. HH

      Yeah.

    18. RC

      That's when-

    19. HH

      So now you, you're operating from a state of, well, I'm tired now. So now if you're keeping going, there's, there's degrees of more tired. Whereas if you start the walk-run strategy, don't wait until you're tired. Don't, don't do anything waiting, "Oh, I'll, I'll do that when I'm tired." Start as you mean to go on so that you don't get tired.

    20. RC

      Yeah.

    21. HH

      That's the point. And it can, it can be equal, so there's lots of one-one. Uh, and mostly people think that they should run more than they walk. But I frequently suggest to people they walk more than they run, and it can be a lovely recovery set so that you walk for nine minutes and run for one. Just loosen up, but don't overly stress the system, and that's still a really great way to recover from, you know, a harder, uh, interval session, maybe on hills. So there's no rules apart from-- So for me, the only rule of thumb is, 'cause it's always a heuristic, isn't it? It, so the rule of thumb is- Avoid doing it continually. Even walking every single step of the way is hard because it's the same activity. So when I walked 100 kilometers, it was much harder than run-walking the 100 kilometers because-

    22. RC

      We want variety

    23. HH

      ... yes, the body, switching it up and changing gears, the body enjoys because it- you get into this less repetitive, um, almost like a RSI, almost like repetitive strain, the same thing over and over again. The brain switches off, it gets tired. As soon as the brain's tired, the body is tired. So by keeping switching it up, it's easier on the body, it's easier on the brain, which is of course in control of the body.

    24. RC

      Yeah.

    25. HH

      It's a bit of a soapbox.

    26. RC

      Thinking about what we celebrate in society and how that cultural conditioning impacts how we think and how we operate in the world, what else do people celebrate at the end of a half marathon or a 10K or a, a marathon? It's that person who does look as though they're done, they're hunched over, they can't do it anymore, but they're, they're, they're sweating and they're pushing through, and we love... And I would be celebrating that, again, "Well done, mate. Well done, mate. You can do it." And again, I'm not saying we shouldn't celebrate that, but wouldn't it also be great if we gave the same level of celebration to that person who's still looking calm, cool, collected at the end, in really good posture? I mean, as you know, I spoke to Eliud Kipchoge a couple of years ago on this podcast, one week exactly after he broke the world record at that time. And for people who don't know, he's still the only person to have run a marathon in under two hours that we know of, and that was in, you know, certain conditions. It doesn't count as an official world record, all that sort of stuff. But one thing I said to him, I'm pretty sure, and one thing I've always enjoyed about watching him, is that to me he never looks as though he's trying. Even when he was breaking his world records, right, and just over two hours to do a marathon, I, I'm pretty sure, 'cause that was in Berlin, from recollection, he didn't look at the end as though he was pushing through. He had his Kipchoge smile on, which he often does when he's in pain, but he looked... His posture was great, it looked relaxed.

    27. HH

      It is a point of principle, and w- you could argue pride, but it's a, it's the principle of if you know how to use your body well, you better make sure you're still doing it when you're tired. Because if you're not using it well when you're tired, it's harder.

    28. RC

      Mm.

    29. HH

      So as a point of principle, my goal on anything I do, I need to look the same at the end as I do at the beginning. It's easy to look great when you're fresh, and it does you no good service to allow your body, allow yourself to, to go along with the feeling within your body of fatigue. So allow yourself to slump, allow yourself to feel heavy, allow... Your, your legs feel heavy, so you're dragging them along. But that is making life harder.

    30. RC

      Mm.

  10. 59:18 – 1:13:37

    Teaching the brain, not forcing the body: finding your head with sensory input

    1. RC

      Yeah. Let's go back to head position.

    2. HH

      Okay.

    3. RC

      Okay? Some people heard our first conversation. They were able to apply that look in the mirror, just think about it when they were walking and go, "Oh my God, I've got my head forward. If I put it back, how does this feel?" And they got improvement. As you said before, sometimes their knee pain went or their foot pain went or their shoulder pain, whatever it might be. A lot of downstream consequences started to get better, but some people, Helen, contacted you to say, "I don't know where my head is." So for that person, how do you help them?

    4. HH

      Yeah, and isn't that extraordinary? So it, it speaks volumes for what might not be happening within their system, that they don't know where their head is. They can't find their head. So our, our body, our, our skin is our biggest organ, and it has all sorts of receptor cells in it to, to feed information to our brain so our brain has awareness.

    5. RC

      Mm.

    6. HH

      So when people can't find their head, and there was m- there were many people, uh, lots of success, happy stories, which was just delightful, and, "I hear what you're saying, but I can't find it. I've got absolutely no idea where it is. How do you do that? I, I don't understand." They, it, they didn't even actually express that they couldn't find it. They, they didn't compute the question. "What do you mean? What, what do you mean I can't... What do you mean, where is my head? I don't understand the question."

    7. RC

      It's a little bit like, Helen, um, or I think it is, my entire life, you know, I've always been interested in health and fitness, and I've said before, you know, when I was 13 or 14, I used to get Men's Health and read about all these exercises and do them incorrectly probably. Um- But I always remember whenever anyone would talk about shoulder blades, like I, I almost switched off. I didn't know what they were talking about. Yes, I know, especially from medical school, I know anatomically where the shoulder blade is, what it does. I've learnt all that, right? But it didn't land with me, and I think that's become clearer over the last few months, hasn't it? Because I, I just didn't know where my shoulder blades were, so therefore, when I'm reading it and saying, "Oh, you know, what are your shoulder blades doing?" I was like, "I, I don't really know." Like, I don't know where my shoulder blades are, and I'm pretty body aware.

    8. HH

      Yeah.

    9. RC

      So for me, that was almost a dark zone, right?

    10. HH

      Yeah, and it's a disconnect. So-

    11. RC

      Why?

    12. HH

      Yes. So if you think about it doesn't compute, and, and this is our most precious commodity, and you see it in the mirror every time [laughs] you look at yourself.

    13. RC

      So the head's the most precious commodity.

    14. HH

      'Cause it houses the brain, without which we can't do anything, and they, they don't understand the question. So there is a disconnect within their system somewhere, uh, that, that enables them to even say that. So we use skin. Skin informs our, our being of where things are, is one of the ways. It's one of the most productive ways. So I get everybody to lie on their back. Just, just lie on, lie on your back. Put... If your head needs to be on a cushion for comfort because it's so far forward and you have no idea it's so far forward, which is why it's got so far forward-

    15. RC

      Mm-hmm

    16. HH

      ... 'cause you didn't know anything about it. So if you need to put cushions underneath your head for comfort, please do. Don't force yourself to lie flat on your back-

    17. RC

      Mm

    18. HH

      ... because, you know, that's what we all should be able to do. Uh, if it's not comfortable, your brain is not going to be paying attention anyway.

    19. RC

      Mm.

    20. HH

      So get comfortable, lie on your back, and, and feel your head because it'll be touching something. Then we have the crown of the head. So, uh, I often say to people who don't know where their head is, who, who don't compute the question, uh, "Touch the crown of your head," and they'll touch the top of their head. And of course, the crown is the swirly-whirly bit of the, um, your hair, if you have any, or, or the bald bit if you don't have any. So where when you're lying on your back, it's where, um, the top of the head meets the back of the head. So currently, it's where my locks are, are tied up there. And if you press down there and wiggle it around in all directions, it's why massages at the hairdressers feel so delightful. There are so many proprioceptors in there for, for your, uh, your sense of, oh, that feels nice. But you're feeling it. The point is you're feeling it.

    21. RC

      You, you use the word proprioception there. What does that mean for people who've never heard it?

    22. HH

      Uh, well, when you're moving, proprioception is the body's awareness of itself when in motion.

    23. RC

      I think what we learnt at medical school was it's, you know, proprioception is an awareness of where you or your limbs are in space.

    24. HH

      Yeah, spatial awareness, yes, and there's a disconnect of spatial awareness if you don't understand the question of where is your head.

    25. RC

      So you don't know where your head is. So the first thing for people who don't have that awareness, where there's some sort of block, is you could use skin. So you press on the crown, you squidge it around.

    26. HH

      Yeah. Lie on it. So the back of the skull has got information.

    27. RC

      Oh, so hold on. You're on the floor, so the floor is giving the skin at the back of your head input that that's where I am.

    28. HH

      Yeah.

    29. RC

      Your hand is going on your crown, which is giving that part of the skin input. This is where your crown is. That is what's sending signals to the brain saying, "Here I am. This is where these body parts are."

    30. HH

      Yeah. So you're making, uh, neuronal connections to, oh my goodness, this is my head, and then you need to start the movement. So with... You can still have your hand on the crown of your head, and you, you want your head to be on something slippery. So I often use a, a document wallet, um, underneath. A piece of paper will do. So what you don't want is the movement of your head to be disrupted by traction between your hair, if you have any, and the surface that you're lying on. So have something slippery between your head and what you're lying on, and then just start to nod and tip your head back within comfortable ranges. And because your hand is on your head and your head is on something, you're getting all sorts of information about where your head is. Then you can start a rotation, and you'll get a sense of how close your ear is to the floor to one side versus the other. And the more you do that, the more, number one, you get awareness of head. Number two, you start to realize that the head talks to the neck spine. And as you nod, it kind of pushes the neck spine backwards down to the bed, and you don't get a double chin. You, your, your chin tissue gets retracted so that you get like a nice clean jawline instead of, you know, if your... If my head is forward and I just drop my, my chin down, I'm just, for the purposes of the, um, people listening, I now have a proper double chin going on there. But if, but if I'm lying on the floor and I'm nodding and my neck spine is following, then I don't get a double chin. So many people, in my experience, don't put their head on right because they've told me that when they do that, they get a double chin, and they don't like it.

  11. 1:13:37 – 1:44:43

    Doris: measuring movement in 3D and why walking can be worse than running

    1. HH

      So Doris is, um, she is my teacher. Uh, and I use her as a both a tool to assist my thinking and to research hypotheses. Uh, she is the most advanced gait analysis tech in the world.

    2. RC

      There's only four, right?

    3. HH

      Well, there are more now, apparently.

    4. RC

      There's more?

    5. HH

      Yes, there's more. Uh, I think that there are still less than 10, but I think the 10th, I think the 10th is about to be installed in India. I, I think that's the 10th.

    6. RC

      And so it's the most, uh, advanced gait analysis in the world. So I know that there's a treadmill.

    7. HH

      Yes.

    8. RC

      But there's also lots of other tech around it. You put stickers on me. Like, g- g- what, what, what do those stickers do?

    9. HH

      Well, they just assist... Doris doesn't need anything if you're standing still, so she's more accurate than an X-ray up to, even Doris has her limitations, up to 30 kilometers an hour. Nobody has ever reached anywhere near that. Um, I had a, a couple of elite athletes who, who thought that they were going to. "No, I'm, I'm going to beat Doris." And, and the furthest they got was 21 kilometers an hour, and, and even then I thought that they were gonna ping off the, the end. So, uh, so she's, she's more accurate than an X-ray, uh, for any speeds that we need to measure. And when she's... When you're standing still, she needs no stickers. She only needs the stickers when you're moving. It's, it's a point of reference. Uh, so she just needs guidance on exactly, uh, when you're moving, where the pelvis is, and where the base of the neck is.

    10. RC

      But you're, what you're measuring, like what, what my spine is doing-

    11. HH

      Yeah

    12. RC

      ... as I'm moving.

    13. HH

      In three dimensions.

    14. RC

      Right.

    15. HH

      So the, um, the, the side view movement of the spine, the left to right, uh, frontal plane movement, so anything that you can see from the baseline of a tennis court, and the bird's-eye view, the rotational movement of the spine and the pelvis, and simultaneously, uh, not just the forces through your feet, but the pressures of you through your feet. So you have impact forces, and you have your center of mass traveling through the feet.

    16. RC

      To me, at least, Helen, yes, Doris can do static measurements, and you've said that they're more accurate than an X-ray, but then one of the problems I would say about X-rays or CT scans or MRIs is that they're done whilst you are still-

    17. HH

      Yeah

    18. RC

      ... generally speaking, right?

    19. HH

      Yeah.

    20. RC

      So you're actually getting a representation of what's going on whilst you're moving-

    21. HH

      Yeah

    22. RC

      ... which is, I think, really, really key.

    23. HH

      I think that, um, what's interesting about bodies is what do they do when they're standing still, then what happens to them as they move at a variety of paces? Because wherever your frame is when you're standing still, as you move, everything should be moving. Everything should change. Nothing should stay the same.

    24. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    25. HH

      So it's, it's, it's gifting us... So the i- the importance, that there is importance in anything that is measured statically, because that is your frame. So it's not to negate anything. It's to say, okay, yes, that information is really useful, then now we need to layer on top of that what happens as we move. Does that all stay the same, or does it change?

    26. RC

      And actually, one of the things that you found with me over the past few years is that, uh, initially at least, my body, I think from recollection, was better running than walking.

    27. HH

      Yes, so many.

    28. RC

      So many be- okay. E- explain that. Why, why would that be the case?

    29. HH

      Because when you're running, you're free of the ground, so anything within the remit of a contralateral movement, so opposite arm and leg twist through the system, which is our innateness as a human. So we're the only hum- the only mammal that twists within the field of gravity. We don't have to bounce up and down like a kangaroo or a rabbit. Uh, neither do we have to slither, uh, like a slithery thing. So we, we twist in the field of gravity 'cause we have this, um, uh, transverse plane twisting rotational element.

    30. RC

      So that's what, as if, if someone's imagining walking as their left foot goes forwards to keep going there, like, the, well, uh, their, their pelvis is actually orientated to the right, and as their right hand comes through, please correct me if I'm wrong here, Helen, but what your, your chest is, is relatively orientated to the left?

  12. 1:44:43 – 2:03:44

    Foot wiping and ticklish feet: changing the whole system from the soles up

    1. RC

      Helen, one of the themes of today, one of the things we've covered is that you can give your body and your brain input through the skin.

    2. HH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      Okay? And you've, you've explained that one way to do that is lying on the floor and, you know, allowing the skull to touch the floor. That's giving input to your, the skin on your, the back of your skull. Touching the crown of your head and massaging it around, that's giving input, okay? So that's one way. I wanna talk about feet, okay? I mean, we could spend two hours just on feet.

    4. HH

      I was gonna say-

    5. RC

      So specifically, I want to talk about foot wiping and ticklish feet.

    6. HH

      Oh.

    7. RC

      Okay? And maybe we can just do a quick summary of it, and we can go deeper next time you come back on the show. But what's interesting to me, and I've done this in your clinic, is, and I used to have very, very ticklish feet, and they're less ticklish now through all this work, right? And in my kitchen, as you know, we have a doormat. Like, so we're a bare thought household. No one wears shoes in our house. And, um, but there is a doormat in our kitchen, and the doormat is not there for people to wipe their feet on. It's there for me, and hopefully the kids, if I can keep gently reminding them each morning, is to do foot wiping for about a minute. Explain, if you can, why is foot wiping important, and what have you seen? 'Cause I think you have measured this, and you've seen it pretty much on every occasion. What happens when you put people back on Doris after they've wiped their feet for one or two minutes?

    8. HH

      Okay. It's so big. Um, the, the skin, uh, is full of, uh, skin receptor cells that give the brain information, and we feed it in from the extremities. And the most sensory, uh, input is found in palms of hands, soles of feet, and tongue. And these form the extremities, of course, feeding into the system. The tongue is an extremity because it's the only part of the human body that can be outside the human body and not be called a prolapse. So, and it's a very core muscle 'cause it never gets tired. Uh, ergo me talking all day and getting sidetracked. And it's attached to the hyoid bone, which is a very core bone, uh, because it's the only bone in the human body not attached to another bone. And the tongue is core because it's only attached at one end. It's the only muscle attached only at one end to a bone. So we have all this sensory input coming in to our system to feed information to the brain about what is going on as you move around in, through space. And initially, we are, we have receptive fields, um, which are hypersensitive. So you can replace ticklish feet, which is just, I like easy terms. They're hypersensitive. Uh, you- these people struggle to... They, that, to walk on a, a pebbly beach would be horrific for them. They would need to put shoes on. They, they don't... Even the slightest bit of gravel. It's like Princess and the Pea. Their feet don't like being in contact with the ground. They're, I call them squeamish soles.

    9. RC

      Is that normal, or should I say, is that optimal?

    10. HH

      It, it's not op- it's suboptimal. It's common, but it doesn't mean it's right. So we have these sensitivities in our feet when we're born because nobody's born with any arches. Nobody's born with bunions. I've told people, uh, people have told me that they were born with their bunions. Nobody's born with a bunion. The bunion is as a result of, um, the movement patterns that you utilize and the foot trying its best to help you out there. There are pathologies in feet, of course, but we're not talking about pathologies in feet. We're talking about human development, and initially, there are receptive fields in the soles of the feet, which when triggered either through a stroke in a certain place and a certain direction, and, uh, or, or traction, so lengthening of tissue, it fires off a reaction, a reflexive reaction. Now, a reflex travels at, uh, 180 to 270 miles an hour. It's super fast. It's happened to you. You didn't choose it. It's already happened. It's a stereotypical response to a stimulus. And we need it because we're a blob at the beginning. So we need all these receptive fields and, uh, s- sensory input to create the response of movement for our body to start to move, to get us repetitively muscle strengthening. It's like strength and conditioning for babies to get us upright in the field of gravity. I am simplifying this hugely.

    11. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    12. HH

      It's a, a huge chunk of brain science. I, I made a little animated video 17 minutes long in my attempt to try and e-excite people about the subject because so often the answer is here

    13. RC

      Where, where is that video?

    14. HH

      Uh, YouTube

    15. RC

      It's on YouTube, on your YouTube channel.

    16. HH

      On YouTube, free

    17. RC

      Right, we'll put a link to it

    18. HH

      ... free. Uh, and because if nothing else has worked, check in. Just if you watch the video, pennies... I- people tell me that they suddenly thought, "Oh my goodness." So maybe, uh, when I couldn't do... I went to ballet class, and I was great on everything except plie, and I couldn't find my heels. So they were a toe walker, couldn't find their heels. This is you, this is to say, uh, as a human, a grownup human, I can't find my heels. This is nonsensical, isn't it? Of course you can find your heels. But at a fundamental root level within your DNA, the heel thing isn't going on, so they walk on their toes. Brilliant at sprinting, really good equestrians because all the information is coming through the forefoot.

    19. RC

      Mm.

    20. HH

      And yes, they're pushing their heel down, but it's touching nothing.

    21. RC

      Yeah.

    22. HH

      So they're, so there's all this... Anyway, so watch the video because it, it may just pennies dropping from heaven happen, uh, in my experience. So the, the, the receptive fields create this reaction, toes pinging up all over the place, movement of the, the foot bones to create the arches on which we need to walk, to create the strength in the four layers of muscle underneath the bones of the feet. People think we need cushioning. We've got four layers of muscle.

    23. RC

      Yeah.

    24. HH

      They should be busy cushioning us. We shouldn't need to have shoes. We enjoy shoes where, we're, we're bright humans are, are developed. Our feet get cold, so we'll protect our feet. Our feet get too hot from the burning, um, sun, so we might have a layer of, um, of material to protect us from the hot ground, but we don't need cushioning-

    25. RC

      Yeah

    26. HH

      ... because we have it, and we have give in our feet from the development of the arches. This all starts before we've even got onto our feet, and the problem is, uh, and this is an opinion, dare I say it, Babygro should be banned because the foot... Can you imagine if the, the, the baby's foot is wafting in the sky, and, uh, the baby sees it, doesn't realize it belongs to them, grabs it, sticks it in his mouth because everything is explored through mouths. I've got a puppy. Everything goes in his mouth. So it's explored in the mouth, and the tongue on the foot triggers all this movement, which gives the baby great joy, so they keep doing it. So we have all this movement. Can you imagine putting a cloth, a dry cloth in your mouth? Do you think it's gonna stay there very long? It's, it's a, it's, it's not fruitful. It doesn't give any kind of reward, so that's not gonna happen again. So it is, it is my... It is only an opinion, but we are finding instead of injury rates going down, they're going up.

    27. RC

      Yeah. To make sure you're taking action after watching this video, I've created a free breathing guide that's gonna help you reduce stress, calm your mind, and boost your energy. In this guide, I share with you six really simple breathing practices that work immediately. Even just one minute a day will start to make a big difference. To receive your free guide, all you have to do is click on the link in the description box below.

    28. HH

      They're going up and up and up and up, and I am seeing people do lots of footwork, lots and lots and lots and lots of footwork, and still the problem remains. And when I test the soles of the feet, they are hypersensitive. Hypersensitive. These feet don't want to be in contact with the ground.

    29. RC

      These feet don't want to be in contact with the ground.

    30. HH

      It's mad, isn't it?

  13. 2:03:44 – 2:36:16

    Minimalist footwear, socks, and practical hope for people in pain

    1. RC

      So we- we'll do that. To wrap this one up, one topic we haven't spoken about yet, and we just need to briefly cover this at the end, I think, is it's, it's minimalist shoes or barefoot shoes, and, and the reason I think it's worth bringing that up here, you mentioned that you're not a big fan of baby grows?

    2. HH

      Yes. So when the baby has... It's not easy to whip a... The, the-- for the good reason, you could, if it's warm enough, you can just whip their socks off and give their feet freedom for feet to go in mouth. It's-- you can't-- it's not easy to whip a baby grow off.

    3. RC

      Yeah. So just to make sure we're being really clear here, I don't want any mother who currently has their child in a baby grow to be getting upset or to be thinking that they're doing something wrong.

    4. HH

      The context here is how much time is spent in a baby grow. Because if, if it's all the time, then the baby won't have the opportunity to explore the foot in mouth.

    5. RC

      Mm.

    6. HH

      It'll explore hand in mouth, but it won't have the opportunity to explore foot in mouth. And so the baby won't be getting as much input. It'll have whatever input it is able to access through, uh, on tummy when, when on their tummy with pushing with the big toes. But y- And that's another subject. Uh, it-- so it's-- in the-- to frame it to, uh, any young mum, it would be just notice, just notice how often you put the baby grow on, and can you perhaps just chop the feet off the baby grow and put socks on so that they can go on and off according to temperature? And that's it.

    7. RC

      Yeah, because w- we have to be able to have these conversations, Helen, because, as you say, movement problems are getting worse. The amount of people in pain is going up. The amount of people who aren't moving as much as they would like to because they also see the science and the studies. They know they feel better when they move, but injury, restriction, pain is often stopping them, and sometimes that is coming at a core level where some of these innate movements that we would always have done in the past are not, are not fully being explored because of how we often live these days.

    8. HH

      And, and life happens, and stress gets in the way, and that which was organized can become disorganized. So, you know, if we keep checking in with our bodies and, and noticing, oh, my feet seem more sensitive than they were. When I-- this summer-- last summer, I was able to walk barefoot everywhere. This summer, I can't. And so the answer is immediately just go and-

    9. RC

      What happened?

    10. HH

      ... check, check, ch- Yeah, did anything happen in the previous year? Was there some kind of either physical or emotional trauma, um, which would be enough to upset the system? And then go back in again-

    11. RC

      Mm

    12. HH

      ... uh, and, and just reorganize. Just give the brain the information it needs to reorganize. I have no idea what is happening in the brain when we are wiping feet.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. HH

      But we are just taking the foot away from being hypersensitive to being more functional.

    15. RC

      Yeah. Just finishing off there, maybe 10, 15 minutes ago, you mentioned that we've got these four layers of cushioning there in the feet. We shouldn't need cushions. My philosophy is very much that, you know, people say, "Make the case for m- minimalist shoes." I said, "Well, hold on. When did they make the case for cushioned shoes?" You know?

    16. HH

      [laughs] I was about to say the same thing.

    17. RC

      Who, who... You know, for most of our evolution, we ain't been wearing them, and we've been running pretty damn well. We've been moving pretty well. Like, who made the case for cushioned shoes? That's the first thing, but the second thing is, I believe if we kept children barefoot for longer, I believe if we didn't put them into thick cushioned soles, and we kept them, if you have to wear shoes for school or to protect your feet when you're out, whatever it might be, if they were barefoot, minimalist type shoes without soles, without a heel to toe drop, I believe that we would stop or reduce so many downstream problems later on in life, back pain, hip pain, knee, whatever it might be. What's your perspective on everything I've just said?

    18. HH

      So the science is already there. We don't even have to hypothesize. Uh, a dear friend of mine was, uh, invited to present, uh, his, some of his work, um, in India, and, uh, they said, "Oh, just let us know, um, what you wanna talk about, and then we'll do all of the, um, the promo." And he was like, "Oh, what shall I talk about?" And, uh, he was passionate about feet. Um, he is passionate about feet, and so he said, uh, "Oh, let's do plantar fasciitis." And the, the email came back, "Yeah, mate, uh, well, we... I, I think that's, uh, that's your problem over there. We, we don't, we don't have this. We... It, it, uh, it doesn't really exist here. Think of something else." So there are so many cultures around the world that don't have these problems and don't wear cushioned shoes, and some don't wear any shoes.

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. HH

      And in some cultures, uh, children don't wear shoes for sport until they're 14. So, uh, that certainly happened in South Africa and New Zealand. When I lived in Africa, that was the state. Now, you know, I've been back from Africa 30-odd years, so I don't know if it's changed since then. But at that time, uh, uh, children did not wear-

    21. RC

      Mm-hmm

    22. HH

      ... shoes. They, they were not allowed to wear shoes for sport. So they needed to be moving on their little growing feet without any restriction. And it's not just the shoes, it's the socks. Socks are so tight, and people don't even realize that the, you know, the elastic is... People tend to wash a lot and, you know, one wear, it must go in the washing machine and... But every time these, uh, these fibers get washed, these elastic fibers get washed, they, they lose a little bit of their elasticity until-

    23. RC

      Mm

    24. HH

      ... we all know that, uh, nice, comfortable, stretchy lovely sock that was lovely when you first put it on is now tight and not very comfortable, but we're gonna put it on anyway-

    25. RC

      Mm

    26. HH

      ... 'cause it hasn't got any holes in it yet, and so we'll just keep going with it. So, which is fair enough. And yeah, and it's not... it's a bit mean on your feet because the feet bones need to move. The joints need to move to activate the musculature of which there is plenty.

    27. RC

      So do you think-- I think, I think, you know, we're gonna have to park certain parts of this discussion for next time, Helen. But as a general rule, are you a fan of minimalist shoes?

    28. HH

      I don't personally like cushioned footwear. I can't, I can't feel the ground. It doesn't do it for me. I want to feel-- I want to be connected with the ground. Nothing pleases me more than as little as possible on my feet.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. HH

      But my feet get cold. So in winter, I don't like cold, wet feet, so, uh, waterproof socks go on and minimalist footwear because I don't possess anything else.

Episode duration: 2:36:16

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