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Dr Rangan ChatterjeeDr Rangan Chatterjee

The "HEALTHY" Foods You SHOULD NOT Eat To Lose Weight & Live Longer | Tim Spector

To get 1 year's FREE VITAMIN D and 5 FREE TRAVEL PACKS visit Professor Tim Spector rarely eats bananas these days. He treats a glass of fruit juice as he would a can of cola.

Dr. Rangan ChatterjeehostTim Spectorguest
Apr 5, 20231h 56mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 5:45

    Why Tim Spector Dropped Bananas

    1. RC

      Tim, you've been researching, exploring, studying, writing about nutrition, to me at least, for a good decade now. And I thought what would be interesting is to start by talking about where you've changed your mind. Perhaps some foods that you previously thought were healthy and were gonna help you with your short-term and your long-term health, but you've now realized that's not the case.

    2. TS

      Well, there's plenty of them, um, because, yeah, I c- I sort of came into this, when I first started, yeah, o- over a decade ago, with a, with a fairly open mind. Well, I say that, but in retrospect, it was the sort of traditional medical mind-

    3. RC

      Yeah

    4. TS

      ... which is what we've been spoon fed. Um, but, uh, yeah, as I've dug deeper and deeper into this, uh, o- obviously new things are, are, are coming up all the time and, you know, the evidence is changing, and I think that's, that's what's really exciting about nutrition, is that it's not standing still. It is changing, and we need to treat it much more like a science than an, a religion.

    5. RC

      Bananas, I believe, is something you've changed your mind on.

    6. TS

      Bananas. Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Well, you're hitting me with bananas straight off, but yes, um, they were my go-to fruit. So, um, I don't know about you, and probably many people, I think they're, they're the, the number one fruit people eat in probably the US and the, and the UK. Uh, stick a, a, you know, it comes in its own packaging, so, uh, you can stick it in your rucksack w- when you cycle to work and, and have it as a snack. And it was, it was pretty much my go-to, um, fruit every day, and I thought it was always gonna be healthy for me, and, uh, really good. And, uh, by doing my research into bananas in great detail for, for the book, I've discovered that, hmm, maybe not so great, uh, to have it every day. Still, you know, all of these things you can have every now and again, no problem. But for me, it was because of personalization, actually, that I discovered that bananas for me were actually something I shouldn't be having every day, because it, they gave me sugar spikes. And, um, when I did the ZOE test, when we started even before it was commercially available, you know, we're doing w- I, I was looking at my normal diets and, and seeing what spiked it, and it turns out that bananas gave me a, you know, a sort of moderate sugar spike every time I had them. So as a snack, as a sort of quick on-the-go, uh, alternative to lunch if you're too busy, um, they're fine occasionally, but for me they were not something I should be having. And since I've discovered what my, uh, scores are, uh, I know that, you know, they don't have as much fiber, they're not as good for your gut microbes, um, and they do have this ready available sugar in them. Uh, I'm much better off having other fruits instead. So I've thrown them out of my rucksack. Uh, I don't... And it's quite good, 'cause I don't have all these rotting bananas in my, in my fruit bowl, which, uh, I used to put in the freezer and then try and make smoothies out of. Um, I don't have that problem anymore. I just get, uh, apples and pears, which for me, on my personalized, uh, scoring, give me, like, double the score.

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. TS

      So a banana, I don't know, I think, I can't remember exactly, I think it w- gave me about a score of about 30, which means I can sort of have it occasionally. This is the, the ZOE score's out of 100. And apples and pears are more like, uh, 60 or, or 70 for me. So that was a clear indication that what I thought was a, a, a fruit I would recommend to everybody, um, doesn't turn out to always be that way. And, and of course, also bananas, you know, we're only having one, uh, one variety of banana now in the world, uh, because of the, the sort of monoculture. It's a great example also of how we used to have hundreds of varieties of bananas, and now there's just one, and we all have exactly the same, uh, type of banana, which is sterile and could be wiped out at any minute. So we shouldn't become over-dependent on the banana for that reason. But I do know that n- my wife, uh, tests herself, and her scores for bananas are much higher than mine. So, um, it does depend, um-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. TS

      ... who you are. But I, bananas have gone out of my rucksack.

    11. RC

      There's so much there. I mean, the first [laughs] thing that came up as you were talking about bananas is, I distinctly remember in the '80s, I think it was the '80s, when Michael Chang was playing at Wimbledon, and, tennis player, and, you know, often at his break, you know, when in between, you know, after two games when they'd be sitting there in their seats, he'd get out a banana a- and peel it and eat it. And I can remember my dad saying something like, "Hey, Rangan, look, bananas, really, really good source of potassium. That's why he's having them. They're gonna help him." So I was infused with this message at a young age, like many of us are, that bananas are a perfect, if you will, a superfood. I'm not sure that term existed in the '80s, but they're a very healthy foods. And I think what you have just demonstrated there, Tim, is this concept of personalization. I'm really fascinated by that, especially because you started off, I think, your career looking

  2. 5:45 – 10:27

    From Epidemiology to Personalization

    1. RC

      at epidemiology, right? Which my understanding of that is we're looking at a lot of populations. So your book really covers this beautifully, but I think you explaining how you have big sugar spikes or moderate sugar spikes to a banana mean that it shouldn't necessarily be daily in your cereal, if you still eat cereal. We'll come to that later. Um, but for your wife, it seems to be okay So maybe talk a little bit about your journey from being an epidemiologist looking at populations to how you got to this point where now you understand that each and every single one of us respond differently, often to the same foods.

    2. TS

      Yeah, well, it's, that's a big question because it, [laughs] it's the... You're absolutely right. My, my s- early career was all about finding risk factors. So I, I would look, uh, do a big study of several thousand people and say, well, for example, does eating bananas, uh, make you more likely to get heart disease or diabetes, or does it prevent? And generally, most studies would show that bananas are, people who eat bananas are protective for these, 'cause it, generally, people who eat bananas probably have other healthy lifestyles, et cetera. But it'd tell you nothing about the banana and the individual. And the epidemiology I used to, I used to do, I think is, most of those, those studies have been done, those very large scale ones, observational ones, looking at association between eating certain foods and getting a disease. It was always aimed at these groups, and the power of it was in the group. So it wasn't until, you know, I got ill personally that I started actually worrying about the individual. It was very selfish actually, um, to try and say, "Well, how do we, how do we sort this out?" And there was, when I was working on genetics, there was this idea that because of our genes, we would all subdivide into these little groups of people, that some people would have the gene for eating bananas properly and others wouldn't. And it, it turned out, um, that's not, that's not the case. It wasn't, you know, genes weren't really good enough at doing that apart from just for milk and alcohol and maybe coffee. They're no- they can't separate us out into these other groups. So there was other things going on, and it, it was this individual journey of my, uh, you know, my poor health and then testing myself that suddenly got this insight that everyone responds differently. And we come back to the, the, that sort of classic, uh, the Zoe PREDICT study that showed that, you know, given the same food, everyone responds 10 to 20 fold differently to an identical food in terms of sugar and fat peaks.

    3. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    4. TS

      So the, the realization that, um, what could be a, a reasonable healthy food for some people might not be as good for others, has been a s- slowly evolving idea, I think. I, I don't think there was a necessarily a eureka moment-

    5. RC

      Yeah

    6. TS

      ... in that. And, uh, but the other point is that we shouldn't get too obsessed with one food.

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. TS

      And I think, I don't want anyone listening to get the idea that, you know, they have to ban bananas if they're, they have a low sugar control like myself. Um, we should be able to eat any proper food. And, you know, but it means that we don't necessarily have it every day, or that we have it with other things that are, are much more important. So it's this holistic view of food we, we have to get away with, which in a way is... But you're talking about you and your dad and, and watching Wimbledon were, were obsessed with this t- this banana because it had these magical potassium properties that got Michael Chang, you know, going in the fifth set and, and, and-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. TS

      ... hanging on to victory. And you said, "Oh, every kid wants to have that banana so they could, you know, play soccer, you know, and, and not fall over and get cramp." Uh, but it turns out that actually there's many more fruits and vegetables that have more potassium than banana anyway. It was like this massive-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. TS

      ... great PR campaign. And-

    13. RC

      Maybe, maybe it was the big banana helped Michael Chang. [laughs]

    14. TS

      It was probably the sugar in it anyway and... But, you know, we all have these habits, and so, uh, at the same time, we're all human and it's n- and it's not possible to vary your fruit snack every single day-

    15. RC

      Yeah

    16. TS

      ... and have this range of 20 different tropical fruits that you can take, you know, to work or to school or wherever it is. So we do have to pick some, but just a simple change from a banana to a pear, uh, can have a, a very big difference for some people.

  3. 10:27 – 21:30

    Glucose Monitors, Sugar Dips and Breakfast Choices

    1. RC

      Have you noticed a difference since you didn't snack on bananas compared to when you did? And I, I, I'll tell you where I'm going with this, Tim. You have used the CGM, continuous glucose monitor, to help you understand what certain foods are doing for you. I, I, like you, think they can be very, very helpful tools if used responsibly, and if given with good education and a good, you know, help people understand what it actually means. I think they can be misused as well, of course. And it's interesting, not everyone yet has access to this. You know, there's a cost element to it. Um, and, and I think a lot about health tech, I, I have real concerns over some health tech. I think sleep trackers can be incredibly problematic for a lot of people. Yes, they can be helpful for sure in the short term for some people, but I think for many people they cause more anxiety in the long run. But what interests me is how we can use trackers like a CGM to help us be more in touch with our own bodies. For example, when I eat a food like this, let's say a banana, and I have a big sugar spike, and then a, a sugar crash two to three hours later, I feel hungry again. I feel a bit jittery. I feel a bit of brain fog. Oh, when I stop doing that, and I'm having an apple instead, let's say, I don't have that drop two and a half hours later. Was there anything like that that you have started to notice since? And I know we're going into one food, the banana, at the moment, but have you noticed that as you have understood which foods give you sugar spikes compared to others, that as you made those changes, you become more in tune with yourself?

    2. TS

      I'd love to say yes [laughs] but the reality is I'm not particularly sensitive, uh, to these, to these changes, and I'm, I'm usually surprised-

    3. RC

      Right

    4. TS

      ... by my blood sugar result. And I know that's not the same for other people. I know some people are very sensitive. You know, they, they, they can sort of predict when they're having that, uh, the sugar dip three hours that, you know, we, we recently published on. Uh, some people seem to be able to pick it up, others can't. Um, I guess I'm usually too busy [laughs] doing something to be focusing on myself. It'd be an interesting experiment to actually say or, you know, to sort of guess what's going on, i.e., blind yourself to your sugar, which, which is sort of what, uh, you know, a lot of people do when they are testing themselves, you know, with these CGMs or, or with, with the ZOE programs or whatever. But I, I, I think there are different categories of people, just like we found that people who have a sugar dip, um, below baseline, which everyone has it occasionally, but some people have them regularly. About one in three women, one in four men have a three-hour, um, dip below the baseline and, um, but only a, uh ... Those people will, will feel and report feeling less energy and, and hungrier, et cetera. But so not everyone has a sugar dip. They ... And, and I think you notice the dips more than you do the-

    5. RC

      Yeah

    6. TS

      ... the peaks. So I think there is a difference between people. So I'm not a big dipper, actually-

    7. RC

      Right

    8. TS

      ... it turns out. Um, whereas other, you know, other people might be. So I didn't tend to really ... The only time I've noticed it was when I was eating these, uh, rather, rather controversial ZOE muffins, which some people love and most people hate, um, every four hours for 24 hours. And I, I ... My trace was like, you know, it, it, it was like a mountain range-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. TS

      ... just going up and down, and I felt terrible. But I felt terrible for a whole 24 hours. Um-

    11. RC

      That's a lot of people's norm.

    12. TS

      Yes. That's the average, uh, UK and, uh, US diet on ultra-processed foods and, and high sugar. And, uh, but it's not my norm, and so I, I really noticed that. Now, that was ... Yeah, I'd, I'd say that's the worst diet-related experience I've had.

    13. RC

      Wow.

    14. TS

      Um, I couldn't concentrate. I couldn't work on my book. I couldn't do anything. And when I looked at my trace, I sort of s- you know, saw exactly why, uh, it was. It was just going from one high level to a low level, and it, it really messed up my brain. But I don't think I'm ... My makeup is such that I can detect these small-

    15. RC

      No

    16. TS

      ... changes of a banana, but I think it's still illustrative that-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. TS

      ... um, you can do that. And so the difference between a banana and apple, personally, I don't think I co- I notice that, but I think other people, uh, might well do.

    19. RC

      But it's also you've made other changes as well, right? So, you know, there, there's a pattern of eating now you're probably doing in a way that you weren't, and therefore, certainly for me, and I think we touched on this last summer when, um, you know, when you were last on the show, that I had found one of the things a CGM taught me was how much quantity makes a big difference. Like, so for, let's say, white rice, for example, and I wanna talk about rice a bit later. I know you've written a whole chapter on rice-

    20. TS

      [laughs]

    21. RC

      ... in the new book. Um, but I like white rice, and as a, you know, as an Indian guy, heritage-wise, you know-

    22. TS

      You can't not like it [laughs]

    23. RC

      ... white rice, you know, we grow up eating white rice. Um, but too much white rice doesn't do that well for me. I think that's quite obvious, but when you see it on a CGM, you really see what's happening, and I've realized if I can reduce my quantity significantly, and I'm used to it now, like I probably have a third of the amount that I used to. I still can enjoy it, enjoy the flavor, enjoy eating the foods that I'm used to with white rice, but not have these horrible sugar spikes that I know long term are gonna have a high potential to cause me problems. So I found it really, really useful on an individual level.

    24. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    25. RC

      And I have noticed as I made a lot of these changes that my energy is more stable, my cognition is more stable, because I'm not getting the sugar ups and downs. Um, another thing just to, to, to finish off on bananas is I had a patient about four years ago, and it was, it was ... It's really relevant to this part of the conversation, Tim. This, uh ... It was a, it was a guy in his mid-40s who was complaining of blurred vision a lot, and in front of computer screens, also when walking, sometimes his vision would just go, um, you know, sort of hazy. Just couldn't see anything. It ... Not one-sided, you know. There was no evidence on examination of any stroke or anything like that. Do you know what it ended up being? It was he would have two bananas every morning, uh, with his breakfast because he thought it was healthy. He'd have a snack on a banana later. I think the diet was, you know, quite high in refined carbs and refined sugars. But this is the most starkest example I've seen, and this was without any personalization, without any CGM data. It was as he cut out bananas for two weeks and reduced a couple of other things in his diet, it went away completely. Now, I've never seen anything that dramatic.

    26. TS

      Mm.

    27. RC

      And I would love to go back now [laughs] and just see what was going on if he did have a CGM at that time, you know, what was happening to the sugar, but that's a pretty extreme case. Um, and I just thought it was worth sharing that because I think it's quite relevant to what you just said.

    28. TS

      Yeah, but I, I think ... Yeah, so I, I did this extreme experiment just eating these high sugary muffins and felt absolutely awful, and, and I guess some people even more sensitive than myself will have this with just by picking the wrong breakfast. And to me, you know, breakfast is the fairly critical point here. So when I changed my breakfast, um, I felt I didn't need a snack- Uh, and so the need to suddenly have that mid-morning banana, um, just wasn't there.

    29. RC

      Yeah.

    30. TS

      And so, you know, you asked me, or, you know, have I, have I... Uh, so it's very hard to take one food out of this context, that when people, you know, are sort of changing their habits, not only, you know, what they eat, but when they eat. And it, it's all part of this whole picture. And I've just found I, I don't snack nearly as much now-

  4. 21:30 – 33:11

    Why Fruit Juice Isn't a Health Food

    1. RC

      fruit juice, uh, Tropicana. I remember, Tim, as a junior doctor, I was working medical SHO Western General, uh, in Edinburgh. Had my... Was powering a flat, renting a flat opposite it. You know, I thought, "Yeah, I'm a young professional," and I'd go to the Sainsbury's in Edinburgh, and I'd buy Tropicana because, you know, I was earning money. I could afford this freshly squeezed, this is what the packet said, uh, orange juice, and I'd have that in my fridge. And I'd have it with breakfast. I may have it after work because I thought it was healthy, right? This is a long time ago now. Uh, talk-

    2. TS

      We all did. Yeah.

    3. RC

      We all did. So talk to me about fruit juice. What have you changed your mind on there?

    4. TS

      Well, they- they're not healthy. There's virtually no fruit juice that is healthy. We don't... We're not deprived of vitamin C, so the original rationale to have this was sort of post-war with, uh, people, total lack of fruit, and they used to sort of preserve some of these, uh, juices in cans and things. Now, I still remember as a kid having the first fruit juices, uh, which used to come in, in cans or reconstituted-

    5. RC

      Wow

    6. TS

      ... sort of frozen things before, um, fresh juice was ever available. So for many people, you know, my generation, this was an, a totally exciting new thing, uh, that we could have. And we've just, uh, been misled by all the marketing that, uh, this is the same as eating oranges. And, um, there's no doubt oranges are healthy, but you wouldn't eat 10 oranges in one go and just use the, uh, the liquid from it rather than all the fiber and the other good bits. So I think when you compare it and you do these studies, you know, with CGMs, you'll find that drinking a glass of orange juice g- is actually, for me, it's slightly worse than drinking a Coca-Cola or a Pepsi.

    7. RC

      In terms of what?

    8. TS

      The, the blood sugar peak.

    9. RC

      And should we just pause here for a second, um, to kind of explain why is it, in your view, important to consider these blood sugar peaks? You know, there's a lot of controversy around CGMs, and um, I think a lot of the controversy is quite limited in terms of the way they're being viewed. I think it's a pretty sensible, logical conclusion given how many people are suffering with their metabolic health, given how prevalent type 2 diabetes, heart disease, strokes, et cetera, are, and how much we know metabolic dysfunction can contribute to them. I don't think it requires a huge leap of faith to, to sort of get to the conclusion that, well, how we manage our blood sugar day to day is gonna play a factor. But for people who are coming to this for the first time, Tim, what would you say? Why is what's happening to our blood sugar day to day important?

    10. TS

      Be- everyone has blood sugar peaks. This is part of our natural physiology, and we've evolved to have them. Sugar goes up, uh, it goes into the bloodstream, and- Gets absorbed if we need it, and then in- insulin is released to bring it, those levels back down because too much sugar is, if it hangs around too long, is not good for our body. And what we see in, in some people who are susceptible is very high sugar peaks, which if you have them, uh, uh, regularly, will predispose you firstly to type 2 diabetes. There's increasing evidence that is the case. That's not really new. What is new is the fact that these sugar spikes, um, you know, if they are prolonged, then you get inflammation related to it. So it means that the body is under stress and that all the cells in the body are sort of pressurized. They're not happy, and just 'cause that environment for them is causing them distress. And so if you've got distressed cells in your body long-term because you are every two hours getting a sugar spike, then over years, that's gonna cause-

    11. RC

      Mm

    12. TS

      ... considerable harm to you. And that's, that's a really important long-term point that, you know, drinking one glass of orange juice is not gonna be bad for you. It's, it's having these things as a regular consumption, uh, but also with the fact that it's promoted as a health drink.

    13. RC

      Yeah.

    14. TS

      And promoted to kids as a health drink. And, uh, it, it really should be, you know, come with a health warning, not, not on the health's shelf. So it's this, it's the idea of these regular sugar spikes, um, causing stress to the body, inflammation, type 2 diabetes, and all the epidemiology studies show that it is related to heart disease, and there's even some suggesting that it, it, it might increase your risk of cancers. So I think that's one reason that we shouldn't be having, uh, orange juice because we've been sold it as a health food that gives us vitamin C and it gives us, uh, all these marvelous nutrients you have in an orange, 'cause it's very different. And I explain in the book how most of the orange juice we're drinking is at least two years old, even though it's sort of portrayed as, as, as fresh 'cause it's been sitting in some vat in Florida or Brazil, um, i- and tastes of nothing. And they, uh, when they're ready to, to, to ship it over, they add in these taste packets that are, um, these, these chemicals that give it back the orange taste that they took away so it doesn't go off. So it's, it's, it's a highly industrialized process. Um, you know, it's not some guy in, in Brazil and Florida just, you know, squeezing an orange and putting it into that pot. It's, it's, it's ultra-processed food, and what ob- I object to it is the fact that it's, it's sold as health food and, you know, generally regarded that way. And that's much worse. I'd much rather people actually drank Coca-Cola and ... 'Cause you ... It's pretty obvious that's not good for you.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. TS

      That is, [laughs] that is a treat, but it's ... Nothing says it's, it's great for you and your teeth.

    17. RC

      Yeah.

    18. TS

      Whereas orange juice is, in my view, just as bad.

    19. RC

      I mean, it's interesting that, um, two years old, a lot of the orange juice people drink. I mean, that's ... It's not that pleasant a thought when you think about that, you know, fresh l- that, that packet, that, that carton with the beautiful image of the, the tropical climate and, you know, someone squeezing it in for you. And I think we all kinda know if you've ever had, um, freshly squeezed fruit juice, truly freshly squeezed juice, I mean, it's pretty remarkable tasting. You know, in Greece last summer, uh, I remember. Like, I, I, I don't have fruit juice. We don't have it in the house. It's not something I consume very much at all. But on my summer holiday last summer, a beautiful day, and I think we were in a cafe when they were doing it. I thought, "Yeah, you know what? Let's do that." I didn't kid myself it was good for me, but I really enjoyed it as a treat, and it was absolutely delicious. So I think what you're really talking about, and this is, I think, one of the key themes in Food For Life, is you want transparency. You want ... You're not saying people should or shouldn't eat anything. It's more like if you're gonna have fruit juice, just be aware that it may not be a health food.

    20. TS

      And have it as a rare treat. Yeah, exactly. And, and, and enjoy it, and get the very best one. You know, rather than paying every day to, to have it or, you know, going to hotels in the US where they, they ... It's compulsory. They sort of virtually serve it at your table with, you know, the iced water and the orange juice. It's part of your, the package. And just, you know, we gotta say no to that, and as you said, have it as this, uh, very special, um, uh, event where you can actually see it coming from-

    21. RC

      Yeah

    22. TS

      ... the, the fruit, or eat oranges instead, you know? Uh, or do it yourself. You know, squeeze it yourself, then you know exactly what's in it, and you don't ... Uh, and you, you ... It's impossible to drink as much of it anyway. Uh, you're not gonna be squeezing 10 oranges every morning before you go to, uh, uh, to, you know, to, to school or work.

    23. RC

      If someone says to you, Tim, "Okay, I understand what you're saying about fruit juice. It's gonna spike my sugar, um, which if I do this day in, day out, it's gonna cause me problems in the long term, or it has the potential to." Um, and they then say, "Yeah, but what about freshly squeezed? That's better, isn't it? Because it's not been sat in a factory for two years. It's fresh. I've seen what's happened." Can you talk to us about the differences? Is that a better option, or is it still gonna do the same thing to our blood sugar, or a similar thing?

    24. TS

      It's gonna be pretty similar. I think it was gonna have s- less of some of the chemicals and other ingredients that are in those, the mass-processed ones, uh, and less of the added flavors and things like this. But, um, it's still gonna lack the essential ingredients of an orange, which is the fiber content-

    25. RC

      Yeah

    26. TS

      ... which is the thing that mops up the sugars, which doesn't give you those big, uh, sugar spikes. So, um, yeah, I'm not saying people shouldn't have freshly squeezed orange juice, but realize when you, when you do it yourself at home, you squeeze orange juice, very quickly, uh, it sediments out, right? If you don't stir it, you get the, you get the, uh, light bits at the top and the dark bits at the bottom. And often even on these freshly squeezed ones you, you buy in shops, you don't have that.

    27. RC

      No.

    28. TS

      They're, they've, they've added something to it, uh, other chemicals to keep it looking nice.

    29. RC

      I know.

    30. TS

      So there are always these subtle differences that, uh, we have. But look, you know, I like, like you, I like the occasional orange juice. Let's just have it occasionally. Let's realize it's a bit of a naughty treat, and if you want the goodness of orange juice, you know, have an orange.

  5. 33:11 – 45:43

    Rethinking Salt and the Sodium-Potassium Balance

    1. TS

      I have, uh, and this is a very controversial topic, so I'm sure some people listening won't like my views on salt. But I, um, originally when I wrote the first book on this diet myth, I looked at the salt thing. I said, "You know what? There's no real controversy there. Everyone, every doctor knows that salt is bad for you. We just need to reduce it, right? All the data's there." Then about six years ago, I started looking at this in more detail, and there'd been some other recent studies on this, and it was, it was clear that there was a lack of, uh, you know, we... There's no doubts people on high salt diets, uh, can increase their blood pressure. And what wasn't clear was if you put people on low salt diets, uh, how much their blood pressure decreases and do they get significantly less heart disease and problems? So the, the sort of causality link wasn't quite there, nearly as much as people expect. They think this, this is a, a done deal. So everyone's been focusing on salt, particularly in ultra-processed food as, oh, well, all you need to do to make ultra-processed food safe is to reduce the salt, reduce the fat, reduce the sugar. Bingo, you've got a p- the perfect healthy food. And that's the thing that really annoyed me. So that, I started looking in great detail at, at salt and saw that there's a huge range in actually how we respond to salt. There's this personalization that no one's really tapped, but if you look in the, the, the clinical studies that have been done, you can see, uh, big differences between people who are ill with cardiovascular disease or very high blood pressure or who, uh, have African origins. They are really quite salt responsive and, um, makes a big difference whether they have salt. But if you take, uh, someone with normal blood pressure, um, European or Asian backgrounds, they, uh, are much less responsive, and the difference on, uh, changing from a high salt diet to a low salt diet is trivial. Um, and I, I did this myself. I practiced... When I first got diagnosed with high blood pressure, I went for six weeks on a, a low salt diet. It was revolting.

    2. RC

      That's six weeks you'll never get back, Tim.

    3. TS

      I know. I know. It's terrible. Um, and you know, I took my blood pressure every day. It didn't change. And I, and I went to look at the results, and it shows that someone like me, similar demographic to myself, would only, uh, change about two millimeters their blood pressure, right? Which you can't really tell taking your home measurements. It's not enough-

    4. RC

      Mm

    5. TS

      ... a big enough change on average. And so I think it's been oversold to us, the impact of salt. The studies show that people who are on salt restricted diets, um, often end up with more, uh, problems with diabetes and renal failure than people that don't. So the American Heart Association's got these very strict guidelines, which is basically less than half a teaspoon of salt a day, uh, which are very hard to adhere to, makes your f- makes your food disgusting, and it turns out that the body doesn't like being at those low levels for many people. And so it may be that 10% of people do respond to that low, low dose and benefit, but most people don't, and some people are actually worse off. So that's, that's the, the data that I've seen. And what's really interesting is that some new studies showing that- Um, it's the s- it's the sodium-potassium ratio that's important

    6. RC

      Mm

    7. TS

      So salt is sodium chloride, and in our body, there's a constant balance in, in all our cells between the, the s- the sodium and the potassium. And if you... They have a sort of inverse relationship. So if you increase the potassium, say you're eating your 20 bananas, um, you actually have a three times bigger effect, uh, on your blood pressure than you do from reducing your salt

    8. RC

      Yeah

    9. TS

      Which... And they've done these, there's a meta-analysis of at least, I don't know, a- at least 10 studies showing that if you use the salt substitutes, which are made of where you have about a third of the salt changed to potassium chloride, um, you get, um, a three times bigger effect on the blood pressure. So I think we've been obsessed with reducing salt, whereas everything points to being that's only a minority of people that are sensitive, and that we should really be focusing on increasing vegetables, which are the main source of potassium. And if you do that, then, uh, you'll have a much bigger effect as an individual or population level on, um, reducing blood pressure, which, you know, is huge. So again, this is part of this reductionist idea that I'm always, uh, going on about in nutrition, that we focus on one thing, and we say, "Okay, let's do that. Get the manufacturers to reduce that, and then we're all happy." Whereas what we should've been saying is, "Actually, you know, let's get that balance of sodium to potassium better." How do you do that? Eat more vegetables and fruits. And if we do that, it's gonna have a much bigger impact, and it doesn't allow manufacturers to say that some terrible product they've got is now healthier because they've slightly tweaked the salt, which isn't gonna make, uh, any difference at all-

    10. RC

      Yeah

    11. TS

      ... to anyone's health.

    12. RC

      Yeah. What was interesting as you were telling your story, Tim, for me, was you said for six weeks you were actively consuming a low-salt diet, but your blood pressure wasn't budging. I think that's a really key point here. When we give generalized, un-nuanced nutritional advice, I think we can make people feel really, really bad. So I'm trying to do what I'm reading in the newspapers or the, the, the health influencers are telling me, yet I'm still struggling with my health. Were you frustrated at all during those six weeks? Are you thinking, "Well, I'm doing this, but it's not making much of a difference to my blood pressure"?

    13. TS

      Yeah, hugely. And if I hadn't, you know, been a doctor and a scientist and, and-

    14. RC

      Mm

    15. TS

      ... you know, subsequently looked up some of this data and realized that I wasn't abnormal, I'd have felt a failure. And I think that's... And there, you know, and that's where a lot of, you know, people listening might say, "Well, you know, I did, I followed this advice from my doctor. Nothing happened, therefore I'm not, I'm gonna give up all the advice."

    16. RC

      Yeah.

    17. TS

      And this is the huge risk we, we have when we generalize all this advice and we don't personalize it, and we don't say, "Listen, the data actually shows that, yes, on average, you know, you might get a 2% improvement in your blood pressure. It might be hard to measure it, but if you're lucky, you might get a 10% one, and if you're unlucky, you know, nothing'll happen. Don't worry about it. Just tell us what you've got." And I think this is this new age we're in now of personalization, of gadgets. You know, I'm wearing a, a, a blood pressure little wristwatch now that gives me every half hour my blood pressure. And you don't have to go to a doctor to do all this stuff. You can really f- you know, this technology can help us out of this-

    18. RC

      Yeah

    19. TS

      ... as, as we realize that we are all individuals, and we're gonna react not only to foods differently, but interventions and exercise and all the other things that, you know, doctors have been telling us is, "That's gonna be good for you. This is gonna be good for you." You know? Well, it may be-

    20. RC

      Yeah

    21. TS

      ... but it may not be. You've gotta f- you've gotta find out what works for you. And for me, um, you know, I still love salt. And, um, I, I've also changed my mind and I, you know, I was very against these salt substitutes. Um, but, um, I think for people who do find it difficult to have lots of plants or, or vegetables, uh, or, you know, it's quite an easy swap, and there's no evidence they are harmful, although they are rather chemical and ultra-processed.

    22. RC

      Mm.

    23. TS

      So, um, but the data's pretty clear that when you do swap, you can reduce your blood pressure, you know, by five, you know, five or six millimeters, which is quite a lot.

    24. RC

      It's interesting. You said, um, there can be a 2% reduction if you go on a low-salt diet. If the consequence of that, for example, means that you are 50% less likely to stick to your new diet because it tastes so awful, that part of the equation doesn't get factored in. Like, it's very, very reductionist. I think, I think not j- beyond food, I think a lot of, um, what I've realized now in over two decades of practice, Tim, is that there is no one right approach for everyone. Like, 10 people can come in with, uh, headaches, let's say, let's, let's say migraines, and there may well, apart from pharmaceutical medications to help potentially reduce the severity of the headaches, you could have 10 different approaches with their life and their lifestyle to address that very similar symptom, because we're all different. We've all got unique pressures, and I think that nuance is very important. We like salt in our food, many of us, and so- You can do something for six weeks maybe with a view to improving your health, but if it's not sustainable, um, that could, that expan- you know, that whole concept we can expand out to weight loss or whatever sort of things people are trying to improve. You've got a real problem, haven't you?

    25. TS

      Well, and yeah, just, just take that example of if you tell people to have no salt, half a teaspoon of salt a day, right? All your vegetables taste rubbish, right? You know, w- you know, it, it's one of the most sought after spices that we have. Uh, you know, meat is virtually inedible, uh, completely without salt. Uh, and you want people to, you know, if, if the holistic advice is to eat more diverse plants and foods and you're taking away a way of seasoning it properly-

    26. RC

      Mm-hmm

    27. TS

      ... it's far worse. So probably, you know, this could explain why these people on low salt diets ended up doing worse.

    28. RC

      Yeah.

    29. TS

      Is probably 'cause what they didn't check is all the other things they were eating and the quality of their foods, et cetera, in these, in these trials. So there are always consequences of these dogmatic, uh, reductionist views that don't take the holistic picture. So I think we're in agreement there.

    30. RC

      People in the low carb community, I would say for many years, uh, a lot of people in that community have said that, look, the problem is the processed foods, the ultra-processed foods. They're the ones that have got these large volumes of salt in them. Um, so potentially the research is relevant if you're consuming a lot of ultra-processed foods. If on the other hand, you are predominantly having a whole food based diet, whatever your brand of that diet is, but it's predominantly whole foods close to their natural form, if you're able to, if that's what you're eating, a lot of them have said for many years, actually adding salt to your food is not a problem in that context. And again, this just speaks to what we're talking about. Context really matters, doesn't it?

  6. 45:43 – 50:01

    Experimenting on Blood Pressure and Sustainable Change

    1. TS

      to it.

    2. RC

      To finish this part of the salt conversation responsibly as medical doctors, what do you then say to the people who are listening or watching, Tim, who say, "Well, look, my doctor, uh, said I've got high blood pressure and they've asked me to reduce my salt intake." How would you help them to move forward?

    3. TS

      Well, I think if you've got high blood pressure, you know you are at high risk of heart disease, strokes, et cetera, and you should do every experiment you can to see what works for you. So I would get hold of a blood pressure monitor yourself, and measure your- measure yourself, you know, two or three times a day. Keep a log of it as you change, and do it for a couple of weeks, and see what results you get. If it comes down by 5% or so, you say, "Okay, there might be something in this." Um, or you simply say, "Well, I'm already on a..." Again, it's all context dependent.

    4. RC

      Yeah.

    5. TS

      Cutting out the ultra-processed food is the number one thing. Everyone who's told they have, you know, a potential s- blood pressure problem, a salt problem. Um, but assuming it's someone like you and I who suddenly gets diagnosed though with, uh, high blood pressure, you can do a little experiment for a couple of weeks, see what effect it has. Are you a very sensitive person or not? That's something everyone can do, right? You can probably put up with it for the two weeks. It actually makes you appreciate [laughs] um, seasoning in food as well for the rest of your life. Um, then if you can't tolerate it, then of course you might switch your salt, um, for this potass- these potassium chloride substitutes, which in the trials show three times bigger effect, and then do that for a couple of weeks, and then-

    6. RC

      Yeah

    7. TS

      ... see how you're getting on there. So I think it, um, realize that you are different. Realize your, your doctor may know not, may not know all the data, and this is a traditional view that's been around for the last 30 years or so. So it's, it's instilled in every doctor.

    8. RC

      Mm-hmm.

    9. TS

      And real- and just take that individualistic approach. Okay, well, that's, that's advice which on average might help me a little bit. Um, is it feasible? But the other th- I think the, it comes to the other point is every time you get some advice about an intervention, you've got to say to yourself, "Can I sustain this for the rest of my life?"

    10. RC

      Yeah.

    11. TS

      And if you really can't or you, you try it for a few days and realize I can't do it, there's no point.

    12. RC

      Yeah.

    13. TS

      And you've got to find another way to get there. I think increasingly there's no point in just doing something, being a goody goodie for six weeks to i- impress the doctor if you know that you cannot do that. And I think-

    14. RC

      Well, that's a problem with a lot of trials, right? [laughs] They run for six weeks or they run for 12 weeks, which is wonderful, but our life doesn't stop 12 weeks after we make a particular change. [laughs]

    15. TS

      Well, that's all diet.

    16. RC

      It goes on.

    17. TS

      All the diet, all the diets work for six weeks brilliantly, you know. And yes, you can advertise any diet in the world, you know, the strawberry diet, you could probably have the Tropicana diet, you know, um-

    18. RC

      There is a potato diet which works

    19. TS

      Potato diet

    20. RC

      You know, all potatoes

    21. TS

      ... the special, remember the Special K diet? The, uh [laughs]

    22. RC

      [laughs]

    23. TS

      Um, they all work, but that's not for life.

    24. RC

      Yeah.

    25. TS

      And, uh, we've gotta start looking at a much longer timescale of all these things. And in a way, that's, you know, what we're doing with the ZOE health studies, trying to get, instill habits and see how pragmatic it is to, for people to pursue that. You know, how easy is it to, you know, switch your banana for a pear or an apple on, and avoid this or not have orange juice or reduce your salt long-term? Yeah, you gotta start planning. Absolutely no point in doing it-

    26. RC

      Yeah

    27. TS

      ... other than as an experiment. I think it, it's an interesting thought experiment, and you and I would do that sort of stuff 'cause we're, you know, into hacking and stuff. There might be some other people listening who do it. But for the majority of people, they, they just want to know what to do, uh, to get them healthier. What, what lifestyle change? And I'd just say to them, if, if you know it's just unrealistic, um, go for something else.

  7. 50:01 – 54:03

    Is Food Medicine?

    1. RC

      Yeah. My passion, Tim, as you know, is beyond food. It's lifestyle, um, as a whole, right? You've written three wonderful books on nutrition. It's interesting for me that I've, I've never written a book about nutrition. Nutrition is featured in many of my books, but it's never been the sole topic. And if we talk about blood pressure, for example, people really need to understand, in my view, that it ain't just your food intake either. Like, if you are chronically stressed, what is the stress response? The stress response is preparing you for danger. Your blood sugar goes up. Your blood pressure goes up, uh, in the acute stress setting, right? So if you're undergoing chronic stress, which is many of us these days, um, that could be why your blood pressure is going up. If you're sleep deprived, your blood pressure could be up the following day. So if you're chronically sleep deprived, that may be something you want to address. Movement, exercise, physical activity can help lower our blood pressure, and so why I think that's relevant is, let's say, let's say for argument's sake you are someone who is salt sensitive, right? Sure, try that for six weeks and see. And if you get a two-millimeter reduction in your blood pressure, so let's say your blood pressure, you know, we really want it around 120 over 80, let's say. I mean, you know, this is not a blood pressure topic today but-

    2. TS

      Below 130 anyway

    3. RC

      ... yeah. Okay, that's, yeah. So let's say we- that's what we're aiming for optimally, and let's say yours is currently 150 over 92. And you think a low-salt diet, which you don't enjoy, brings it down to 148 over 90. Okay, it's better, but then you could also do a trial and go, "What if I eat... I go back to what I was eating or, you know, I go to more whole foods and I don't necessarily watch my salt intake. But what if I bring in a 30-minute walk every day, which actually I enjoy, gives me some physical activity, helps me with my cognitions, helping me sleep better. Or what if I do," if you're that way inclined, "five to 10 minutes of meditation each day?" You can start to self-experiment and go, "Actually, I have all these tools available to me. On balance, this is the tool that I can use, I can implement in my life, I enjoy it, and it's gonna be sustainable for me." So yes, we need to be holistic within food, but we also need to be, in my view, holistic beyond food and go, there's many things that cause our blood pressure [laughs] to go up. It's not just our foods.

    4. TS

      But it's also a time to make change to your lifestyle. As you said, do more exercise. But, you know, e- even if we're taking salt as this reductionist example, it's a great time to say the evidence shows that the more plants you eat, the lower your blood pressure. So go for the rest of your life to try and maximize your diversity of plants 'cause not only-

    5. RC

      Do you think that's 'cause of potassium?

    6. TS

      Yes.

    7. RC

      That's, that's, that's awesome, isn't it? So instead of reducing salt, you just increase potassium.

    8. TS

      We, we've got some data from the ZOE, uh, studies that says that, you know, uh, not only the number of plants, but if you divide them by the potassium, uh, ratios in each of those plants, it comes up very strongly. So that just by eating, you know, you know, my mantra of the 30 different types of plant a week, you will be getting a proportion of high-potassium plants, mainly vegetables, that will lower your blood pressure. And so it's, again, it's, it, it's this holistic approach rather than this obsession with one thing, whether it's vitamin C or it's, it's salt or it's, uh, you know... It, it's all, it's all good, and I think this is where the science is accelerating so much-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. TS

      ... that we are suddenly seeing it all come into focus and these things being linked up.

  8. 54:03 – 1:01:09

    Ultra-Processed Food and Food Culture

    1. RC

      Ultra-processed foods has come up, um, a number of times in this conversation, and I think I've heard you say, Tim, previously, I think I r- I think I've read it in your book actually, that it seems to be the countries without strong food cultures that have been susceptible to being overrun with ultra-processed foods. Can you speak a little bit to that? So I found that really, really interesting.

    2. TS

      Yeah, there've been a number of surveys in the last 10 years that look at, uh, different countries and the proportion in each, in each country, uh, of sort of total energy that is, is given by ultra-processed foods. And, uh, the world leader is, of course, the United States. Um, I think- Latest data, it's getting close to 70% of out, of total food energy is in ultra-processed food. The UK has gone up from 50 to 57%, and is the highest and worst in, in Europe. And, and you look at other countries, say in Europe, you see the Southern European countries, it's much lower. So very low levels in Portugal, Italy, Spain, for example, where there's a very strong food culture, and it just hasn't made those inroads into the day-to-day eating. So kids, you know, they won't be having ultra-processed food in this, in, you know, given to them in, in, in their box, food boxes, and, uh, the school dinners are, you know, properly prepared, or they go home for it. And people just wouldn't think of snacking in the same way that, that we do, um, in, in the UK and the US. You know, the idea of, you know, eating in your car or at your desk just doesn't sort of happen.

    3. RC

      Yeah.

    4. TS

      Um, so there's a clear correlation, uh, between these food cultures and are, and the progress of ultra-processed food, although depressingly, in e- even in those countries, it- it's slowly creeping up.

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. TS

      Okay? But, and people used to say, "Oh, well, it- it's just because, um, you know, it's related to poverty or, uh, other aspects of finance." But it turns out that some of the poorest countries, uh, you know, like Portugal compared to ourselves, they, you know, they've got a fifth of the, the rates of, um, ultra-processed foods. So I think there's a... That was why it got a hold and why, in a way, there's no pushback against it. And in a way, where you... I think ultra-processed food got its handle because it, we als- those countries also spend relatively less on food than the ones with the food culture. So that's the other element to this, is the financial one. The percentage of, um, GDP, um, spent on food has got, has been decreasing much faster in the US and the UK than in, say, uh, these high food culture, uh, countries.

    7. RC

      You tweeted that, I think, last week from The Times, that, um, not a graph, almost like a chart showing what percentage of our income-

    8. TS

      Mm

    9. RC

      ... in different countries do we spend on food. And was it just Europe? I can't remember now. Maybe US was in it as well.

    10. TS

      No, there were, there was a number of countries around the world. Uh, and it, it, yeah, it's, it's really fascinating. It's huge differences. And, you know, we complain that we're going through a cost of living crisis in the UK here, and there was some, something on about, the news about how inflation has, like, the cost of food has, like, doubled very recently in the last year. But we're still, on average, uh, paying considerably less attention to our food bill, um, compared to 10, 20 years ago, where, you know, traditionally, a large proportion of the family budget would go on food and food quality, which it still does in food culture, uh, countries.

    11. RC

      Yeah.

    12. TS

      So we don't regard food as something to spend lots of money on. It's like, it's, it's just a consumable energy source. And that's why, you know, governments have been protecting it being cheap at all costs. Doesn't matter how unhealthy it is, it's gotta be cheap, otherwise they fear there'll be a, a revolution in the streets, you know, attacking the nanny state. And that just doesn't happen in these, these, uh, culture strong countries.

    13. RC

      I guess to, to the, to the British, um, the obvious, I, I won't even call it a cliche, the obvious, uh, country that would come to mind is France, with its very strong food culture and eating at a table culture. And I, I, I've written about this in one of my books, but I always remember this so well, that, um, when my first book came out in France and I did an interview with a French journalist, remote interview, this was maybe in 2019, 2018, 2019, something like that. Um, I remember asking her, 'cause she was in Paris. I said, "Look, my understanding is that everything I've seen, whenever I've been to France, and the, my, my friends who are French and et cetera, et cetera, you stop for lunch. You don't work at the computer. You know, you don't answer emails whilst you're eating. You, you sit down somewhere. It's a, you know, there, there's a certain tradition around eating a meal. Is that still going on?" And she said, "Yeah, this is still absolutely part of French culture. The only places where this is starting to get eroded are in the international companies in the center of Paris." And it's amazing how we're kind of exporting, well, America has ex- has exported its ultra-processed diet to the entire world, and it's making inroads everywhere. I'm not sure it's something that America should be proud of necessarily, [laughs] but it's definitely one of the gifts it's given to the world.

    14. TS

      Well, I think originally it was positive. You know, there was a, a, an idea where the world would starve if we didn't change our system.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. TS

      But we've now gone past that stage, and, uh, we can't stop the beast, if you like. It's, uh, we've unleashed it.

    17. RC

      Yeah, that's a great point. It's a great point, Tim. And, you know, it, it's interesting to reflect back on that, how it did all start. So Tim, I have, uh, like you, been trying to communicate health messaging to the public for a number of years now. Maybe, I don't know, maybe 10 years for me. But I don't know when you started communicating with the public on a, on a big scale.

    18. TS

      Well, I tried about, yeah, I, I guess about 13 years, but I wasn't very successful the first few years

    19. RC

      [laughs]

  9. 1:01:09 – 1:08:43

    The Viral Clip and Communicating Nutrition Online

    1. RC

      Well, you've, uh, you, you've definitely had a few, um, clips from, uh, conversations you've had earlier on this year blow up in, in quite viral fashion and put a lot of attention on what you do. Let's talk about it. There was, uh, a clip cut from a, uh, a podcast you were on, on Stephen's show, and wow, did it generate interest. And not only did that clip generate interest, there were videos being made about that clip. It, I mean, truly went viral. Can you explain a little bit about that and how that all was for you?

    2. TS

      Uh, well, it was a bit of a shock. Um, I had no idea. Um, so, you know, during the sort of two-hour discussion, we discussed these, these points. Um, Steve Bartlett, Steve are, you know, incredibly professional about, um, trying to get previews of the longer, longer conversation. A- and we had... We discussed a lot of these, these topics from a position that I don't think he'd discussed before about, and he didn't really, uh, you know, he- it was the, I think the first time really there'd been any real discussion on health and diet on his podcast. So he was asking from his, his point of view, you know, "Oh, I..." You know, "Do low-calorie diets..." You know, "Should I go on a low-calorie diet? Should I do this?" You know.

    3. RC

      Yeah.

    4. TS

      And, uh, he was very surprised that I, I was prepared to be fairly dogmatic on, on this. And they used this very short clip, um, to highlight this, you know, hour and a 45-minute, uh, discussion, uh, in a sort of Hollywo- Hollywood-style clip where I was just giving one-word answers to these, to these things. But, uh, a- and it was used as clickbait. But, um, you know, and it was obviously cut and edited, but it, it came across as very exciting, and I said, "I think two things," you know, "calorie counting doesn't work and, uh, exercise doesn't make you lose weight." I think they were the two key ones that sort of to an audience that hadn't heard that before from, from anybody, I think it, it, it caused a real stir and led to, you know, these 6 or 7 million downloads and lots of copycats and, and shock. And I-

    5. RC

      Lewis Capaldi made a, a video, didn't he? I think, was it your kids who showed you that?

    6. TS

      That's right. So re- you know, I had all these, uh, uh, you know, the, the sort of under 30s who aren't exposed to these, you know, the sort of chats that you and I are having, suddenly coming out, "Oh, I'd had no idea you were doing any of this," you know. And I was suddenly, um, I'd made it because Lewis Capaldi was talking about me and did a video on me. So-

    7. RC

      He seems proud of you

    8. TS

      ... th- that's the first time they've ever been proud of me. That's right. [laughs]

    9. RC

      [laughs]

    10. TS

      So, uh, but, uh, but I think, you know, and, and people said, "Oh, do I regret it?" You know, "Wasn't it too sensational?" Um, no, I don't think it was. I- if, if, if it got millions of people to look at that discussion, to talk about nutrition and food and health in, in a way they... completely different to what they'd been brought up on in the marketing and the other things that have been pointed at particularly younger people, great. Um, I think anyone who thinks that, you know, you can get nuance from a 30-second, uh, clip on Instagram or TikTok is very misguided, and you have to look at the-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. TS

      ... the bigger context. But, you know, I think this is... it's great that we can have these discussions and that, you know, in a way, food and nutrition can be an exciting topic-

    13. RC

      Yeah

    14. TS

      ... that involves young people, and it's a bit of a wake-up call, really. And so, yeah, I, I don't have any regrets. Um, everyone knows that, you know, I didn't just speak for 30 seconds and do that. [laughs] It was, uh, uh, it... but it was, uh, it's the same way that, you know, you advertise a Hollywood film with a trailer.

    15. RC

      Yeah.

    16. TS

      Uh, it doesn't mean that, you know, you can watch that and, and get a, a, a sense of everything that's in it. But it, it, it, it's, it's drawing people to this, and I think the more people that do understand these, these key things about calories and exercise and ultra-processed food, the better. That's the way we can change the world, and that's, you know, what I want to do.

    17. RC

      Yeah, it was interesting watching all that, um, because I think if people actually heard the conversation, there was so much more context there than... which is kind of, I guess to me, I would say obvious. But, you know, whether something's obvious or not is in the eye of the beholder.

    18. TS

      Well, it is the dan- it is the danger of Instagram and the fact that if you can't say it in your, you know, 90 seconds, um, no one's gonna bother to look at it.

    19. RC

      Yeah.

    20. TS

      So-

    21. RC

      And it used to be 60 seconds.

    22. TS

      [laughs]

    23. RC

      It's gone up. And, and, you know, Tim, the truth is, you know, I've been running this podcast now for maybe close to five and a half years, and it's probably only been video the last three and a half years, something like that, or maybe, maybe four years. I don't know. And this is a challenge we always have, which is I want context and nuance, hence we do these long-form conversations. It's the fourth time you've been on the show. You know what the show's about and how we do things. But then if you want to raise awareness and get people to listen to the conversation, but one way of doing that is to use platforms like Instagram, for some people TikTok, and, and these sort of, sort of social media platforms- And you could take the conservative approach and go, "We're not gonna play any of those games at all." And then you could argue that that information that you have in your books, in that conversation, that is so valuable, that is gonna help so many people improve their lives, it's not gonna get anywhere, or it's gonna be limited. I'm not saying these things are easy. This is something that me and my team think about a lot. How do you communicate these ideas?

    24. TS

      But I think we're coming from a place, particularly in medicine, where we were told, really, "Don't do anything on the media. Don't, you know, put your name out there. It- you're sullying the reputation. You mustn't do anything." And so it, it takes a long time to overcome that.

    25. RC

      Yeah.

    26. TS

      And, you know, if you have a, yeah, a 30-second clip on TikTok or Instagram that brings people to, say, this podcast, and then, and then this, we're talking in broad strokes here, but if they really want to go, you know, they can go to the book and look up-

    27. RC

      Yeah

    28. TS

      ... and then if they want to go into those chapters, they can look at the references. That's what we want. We want people in that funnel, don't we? So I think people just got to realize that there are different levels of information, and it's all useful, and we just want people to get engaged at the level-

    29. RC

      Yeah

    30. TS

      ... they're prepared to go to, and that we shouldn't be frightened of starting at a way that attracts people into this discussion and funnel, even if it means some punchy, you know, controversial, uh, terms. Uh, obviously, there's some dangers if you tell people, you know, give up, if I said, "Well, you know, give up all your drugs," you know, uh-

  10. 1:08:43 – 1:19:13

    Why Calories Aren't the Point

    1. RC

      You mentioned the two things which really, um, got people's attention, exercise and weight loss, and calories. Would you like a bit of time just to clarify, uh, your views on both [laughs] of those things?

    2. TS

      Yeah. So calories exist. I'm not a, I'm not a denier of a sort of physical fact that if you burn food in a, in a jar, you can get heat off that is, you know, has a... You can measure food in that way. But, you know, so many people have gone through Weight Watchers, or they've been given these strict calorie-controlled diets that make calorie the center of the universe. You know, it's, it's the only thing that matters. How many calories did I eat that day? And, you know, it, it, it was, it's massive business. You know, every, every time you go to the supermarket, all you see is reduced calories, only 400 calories, only this. And so for most people in this country, where we lack a food culture, that's the number one thing that most people have been bombarded with. Oh, I can't have that. You know, I should have this. Um, eat this. And it, it, it's a total distraction from the quality of the food, and we now know that you give people two meals of identical calories but completely different quality and makeup and macronutrients, it'll have a completely different effect on your body. So it's, you know, for, for so many reasons, obsessing about the calorie is wrong. It's, uh, it- the quality of the food is far more important. If you eat good quality food, it doesn't make you as hungry. If you, uh, you know, it changes when you next eat your meal. Um, and it's impossible to actually count calories really accurately anyway. So, and even if you do, you... Calorie restricted diets give you the six-week improvement, as we all see. But virtually all bounce back to baseline, uh, however mu- however hard you try, uh, if you're only focusing on the calorie, which is what most, uh, uh, the clinical trials and everything have done. So I think it's, it's trying to move people away from this camouflage of calories being the most important thing about selecting your meal. And I particularly get upset in restaurants, you know, this idea that we could s- solve all these problems by people in a, you know, in a fast food restaurant selecting something that had slightly less calories in it. 'Cause all the evidence shows is people then just get an extra dessert, or they, um, they get two of the, the low-calorie ones. Or they're not looking at the ingredients or-

    3. RC

      Yeah

    4. TS

      ... we're not... No one has said, let's have a quality score, and that's something I'd love to do, um, in the, in, in the future with ZOE, is actually, you know, I've got in, in Food For Life, lots of these tables where I've got, you know, my scores. But if you could start to give people gut-friendly scores-

    5. RC

      Mm

    6. TS

      ... or things that are more holistic, that take into account the number of different plants, the lack of chemicals, all these other things that are bad. So, um, calories, you know, I'm not saying they don't exist, but quality of food is so much more important.

    7. RC

      Yeah.

    8. TS

      And, and also how you eat and all these other things. And so, you know, getting people from the, the onset to start thinking about what they're eating, not how many calories-

    9. RC

      Yeah

    10. TS

      ... they're eating, is so much more important. That, that was really my point in that, in that big discussion.

    11. RC

      I, I think that's a very important point, Tim, and you, you said a couple of things there. Virtually, so virtually everyone who does this in the trials that you're talking about have reverted back. And I know the third time you came on the show about, I don't know, nine months ago, we had, we had a wonderful conversation, and I know we touched on calories in the middle there. And I remember saying to you, and I, and I remember your answer as well, which was, look, if someone is calorie counting, and they find it useful, and they're getting the health outcomes they want with that, because some people will say that they find that really helpful. I personally-

    12. TS

      Oh, yeah. They've written to me and said- Tim, you're completely wrong. I've been calorie counting for 10 years and, you know, I, I, I enjoy it and it's great. And I, I'm, so I'm not saying those people don't exist, I'm just saying they're not the norm

    13. RC

      Yeah. A- and I would agree with that. So, and, and again, we all have our biases. My [laughs] bias is my clinical experience of what I have seen. I've never found it particularly helpful with people. But I know some personal trainers will say they found it incredibly helpful with their clients or for themselves, let's say, for example. But I think the wider point which your work, for me, always seems to make is that, let's say your goal is weight loss, right? And let's say you find counting calories helpful to help you meet that goal in the short term and hopefully in the long term. Okay. But if we look at food in a much more holistic way, if we think about food's impact on inflammation, food's impact on immune system balance and immune system regulation, um, if you, you look at food a lot more holistically, you go, well, calories doesn't take any of that into consideration. Technically, you could lose weight restricting calories or, uh, counting calories, but you could also be doing that with really poor quality food. So yes, on one hand, you could be getting weight loss, but on the other hand, you could be choosing foods that are inc- increasing levels of inflammation and are causing or contributing to immune system dysfunction. We'll be back to the conversation in just a moment. Now, many of us struggle to find time to eat all of these incredible whole foods. That's why I'm a big fan of good quality whole food supplements like this one that's been in my own life for over three years now. It contains over 75 whole food source ingredients, vitamins, minerals, pre and probiotics, and can help us support our energy, focus, digestion, and our immune system. ATHLETIC GREENS are giving my audience a fantastic offer. One year's free supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first order. You can see all the details at athleticgreens.com/livemore or simply click on the link below. Now, back to the conversation. So again, I'm not trying to confuse people, I'm trying to just, like you, Tim, just bring this more rounded approach to when we think about foods, which I just still think is missing massively

    14. TS

      Yeah. No, absolutely. And I, I do recognize that it does work for some people. And for example, there are some type 2 diabetics who are very obese that do find, you know, a kickstart if they're highly, you know, i- if they're followed up and they've got a lot of supervision, you know, it can be helpful, uh, for some of them. But, you know, we're talking probably at most about, you know, one in four, one in five people, uh, who are highly motivated can get some benefit from this. But for the sort of 80% of the rest of the population, all the data suggests that, um, it is not the likely way forward. So it doesn't, doesn't mean you should never try it. I'm not saying, you know ... But I just think even though the act of trying it means that you're ignoring all the scientific evidence about food quality and your long-term health. And I much rather people sort of heal themselves from the inside out-

    15. RC

      Yeah

    16. TS

      ... rather than, you know, just reducing the fat on the outside and, uh, you know, doing it that way. And I think if we start thinking in that holistic way and, and treating these things as long-term problems, not, not a sort of three-month problem-

    17. RC

      Yeah

    18. TS

      ... it'd be better off

    19. RC

      And, and generally, that, that really echoes my own clinical experience, which has been, not always but generally speaking, when you focus on improving health by v- a variety of things that we've, we've already mentioned. When you, when you focus on improving health by improving the quality of the food you're eating, how much you're moving, how much you're sleeping, how much stress you are being constantly exposed to, it is amazing how often weight loss, when it is needed for health, comes along as a side effect. So rather than the weight loss being the focus, often when you do the other things right, which has always been my approach, the weight loss comes along as a, as a useful side effect for, for certain people

    20. TS

      Well, that's exactly what we're finding with the, the ZOE program, where we're not promoting it as a well, l- a weight loss product. Uh, we're just saying we're gonna change the way you eat to, you know, get less of this inflammation and-

    21. RC

      Mm

    22. TS

      ... less of the sugar spikes. And as you said, as a side effect, uh, many people are losing small amounts of weight but, you know, in a sustainable long-term way, rather than this sort of crash diet, uh, and rebound. So I, I think people do realize it, that particularly if you look after your gut microbiome, all those immune benefits start to build up and have the, you know, this great impact and reduce problems of aging and, you know-

    23. RC

      Yeah

    24. TS

      ... help protect you against cancer, help you, you know, deal with adverse-

    25. RC

      Yeah

    26. TS

      ... problems in life. And I think we've just gotta get this across that, um, yes, there are some people that need a kickstart, you know, which could be, you know, in a very few people, um, you know, they might benefit from crash diets, but now we've got, we've gotta deal with Ozempic and other, uh, weight loss drugs that, um, again, if that's not done carefully, then, you know, those people will be thinner, but they, they will ... If they're not improving their diet, their health isn't necessarily gonna-

    27. RC

      Yeah

    28. TS

      ... improve. Uh, or you've got bariatric surgery, which, you know, is the other, um, way to permanently sort of reduce weight. And I think we've gotta, in all these discussions, start educating people about food quality because of these longer other, uh, effects

  11. 1:19:13 – 1:45:08

    Exercise, Weight Loss and Personal Variation

    1. RC

      Exercise and weight loss, what is your nuanced view on this?

    2. TS

      If you want to lose weight, exercise is one of the least useful things you can, you can do. And all the trials show that it has a very either no or very, very modest effects in, in randomized, uh, controlled trials. So where, this is where, you know, people are overweight or allocated to, say, physios or exercise or just videos and, uh, and, uh, and focusing on, on the food. So there's no doubt that that's what the, the studies show, the randomized real, you know, studies, which is the only way you can really test this. Um, the, the ... There is some evidence that once you have lost weight, so you've improved your, your diet, uh, that if you are exercising, it, it, it reduces the rate of rebound. So as we explained, everyone can lose weight on a, um, in the first three months of any, any sort of diet. And people who do no exercise at all do tend to go back even faster or above where they started from if they're not exercising. So there seems to be something there. It's not a huge effect, but it's, it's something. So no, the, the summary of the, of all the clinical trials, not my work, it's other people's, shows no benefits of exercise on a b- on weight loss. But if you have managed to lose weight, there is some evidence that it, you know, might help about 10% to keep it off. So this is very different to what most people are told, uh, when they go to the ... sign up for their gym membership in January, uh, and they're told all this nonsense about burning fat and, uh, all these, you know, different zones in the body and, uh, how you've gotta do all this as if it's some well worked out science, uh, that you just by, you know, by being on treadmills you, you just burn off the fat on your body. Uh, 'cause all that does really is, is, makes you hungrier and, uh, alters your metabolism so that instead of, um, uh, having, you know, a fairly ac- active metabolism to burn up the energy, your body slows it all down. So it's, it's a sort of reflex. So exercise is fantastic for your health. It's great for your mental health. It's great to avoid cancers, heart disease, virtually every disease we know about, apart from maybe arthritis. [laughs] Um, but it is not, uh, a useful tool for most people.

    3. RC

      Most.

    4. TS

      Um, because I'm talking about trials where they look at the averages. And in every single trial, if it shows no benefit of exercise on weight loss, that means that as many people benefited as, um, failed.

    5. RC

      Yeah.

    6. TS

      And some people when they exercise will put on weight, and other people will lose weight, and what the trials show is that the average is so- is in the middle. So by all means, give it a go because-

    7. RC

      You might be

    8. TS

      ... you, you might be in that lucky group that does respond. But don't expect that, that you can, uh, alter things without changing your diet because on a, on average, most people will not purely get that, that benefit and some might be worse off.

    9. RC

      Yeah.

    10. TS

      And I think that's the important thing is it's un- the understanding of all these clinical trials is that they're summing all these individuals and drawing a line between them in the same way we've always done with nutrition, which is where, where we've gone wrong. Uh, but you can expect, like tossing a coin, to get better or worse, uh, if you exercise. Many people just feel much hungrier, and suddenly they're going home and they're raiding the fridge, and their metabolism slows down. They sit down in front of the, you know, the sofa and, um, you know, it's having a negative effect on them. Others might be lucky and get a beneficial effect.

    11. RC

      Well, I think that's the key message from this conversation, Tim, is that none of us are average. None of us are necessarily that average conclusion in that study. [laughs] And for people who find benefit that when they exercise it helps them to lose weight, fantastic, I, I'm sure you would say. But I think why this information is really important to share is because there's a lot of people who are slogging themselves on treadmills in gyms, getting frustrated, feeling like failures because they can't understand why they're not losing weight despite putting in five, six hours at the gym each week. I think for that individual, that's very, very helpful to go, "Oh, wait a minute, maybe I'm one of these non-responders. Maybe this isn't the right approach to me." So I think that's worth saying. For me also, when I think about, um, exercise and weight loss or exercise and, and general health, but let's talk about in, in the context of weight loss, I think Herman Pontzer's research from two or three years ago was really quite profound at showing that just adding in exercise, you know, doesn't mean that that's gonna be additive to your calorie burn that day, you know? Yes, sure, you've done some exercise, but your body can compensate and downregulate- Other parts of calorie expenditure

    12. TS

      Yeah

    13. RC

      I think that was a brilliant study, which-

    14. TS

      Yeah, we're not machines. We're not this in and out machine. This is this going back to the calories thing that people say, "Oh, well, m- my watch has just told me I've done another 200 calories exercise. You know, I can eat a donut," or whatever it is, and it, it's just ... It doesn't work that way.

    15. RC

      Yeah, it doesn't work that way. The ... For me, one of the main reasons to move your body whilst trying to, let's say, lose weight, if that's your goal, is because I think people feel good when they're moving. There's something really ... You know, I think in terms of self-esteem and how you feel about yourself and your moods, I think that often gets improved, uh, particularly if you're sedentary and you start to move, and that in turn makes it more likely you're gonna be able to stick with, let's say, your dietary changes or engage in other lifestyle behaviors, like maybe going to bed half an hour early or whatever it might be. So I think all this stuff is quite nuanced. I think, think you wanted to respond there.

    16. TS

      Well, I don't think it's true for everybody. So you take the Lewis Capaldis of the world, right? Uh, some people absolutely hate the idea of going to a gym and doing exercise or, you know, running or jogging or doing this stuff, you know? And the sort of endorphin rush that many people get is, is like a negative. You know, this sort of feeling of ... And I've had patients like this, like, you know, with ankylosing spondylitis. You say, "Well, if you don't exercise or stretch, you're gonna get worse." And they say like, "You know, I'd rather be worse. I can't ..." You know?

    17. RC

      Yeah.

    18. TS

      And it does happen, right? So there are these people. But I think what is interesting is these micro changes. Sitting at your desk and fidgeting your feet, um, can reduce sugar spikes. Um, getting up every 20 minutes and going up, up and down the stairs to get some ... a cup of coffee, uh, can, you know, if, if done over many hours, is another way of exercising. So I think it's also realizing there's so many different ways people can do things and sort of hacks-

    19. RC

      Yeah

    20. TS

      ... to their body that we need to realize when ... And, you know, just we mustn't assume that, you know, the same exercise works for everybody because we're talking about personalization.

    21. RC

      Of course.

    22. TS

      And I think we've got to be, you know, more open and realize that, uh, you can give people the, the tools, but then say, "Listen, there's a big menu out there," just like all these foods and these other options. Um, I think exercise has to be seen-

    23. RC

      Yeah

    24. TS

      ... in a much wider buffet of ways to do it for people who don't like this stuff.

    25. RC

      Yeah. And I completely agree with that. Uh, I guess what I was getting at is more not necessarily slogging yourself at the gym, um, but like I've got some patients in mind where I would tell them to keep ... Uh, I said, "Okay, you, you don't want to go to the gym. You don't want to work out. No problem. Okay. Can we keep, uh, a dumbbell or a kettlebell in your kitchen?" Something, you know, I talk about a lot. I, I think small, little exercise snacks can be very useful. And for people who don't like exercise, I have tried, and this really does work with a lot of people, say, "Okay, every time you put your kettle on, just pick up that weight and do five bicep curls on each arm. That's it. Then put it down." If you have three cups of tea a day, that's you lifting that weight 30 times a day, 210 times a week, almost 1,000 times a month. And I have found for people who don't like to, in adverse commas, work out in the way in which they think they need to work out, that can be incredibly powerful from a psychological perspective. Like, wow, I, I kind of ... I feel good that I'm lifting a heavy-ish weight. It makes me feel good, which I think psychology also plays a massive role in how we engage with nutrition changes, lifestyle changes. And so, yeah, it's super rounded. Personalization is the key. Um, in terms of your 20 tips, Tim, um, in chapter 33-

    26. TS

      We've done one. We've done one of them, so you got the other 19.

    27. RC

      We, we've done one of them. Well, people can get the book, right?

    28. TS

      [laughs]

    29. RC

      It's, it's a very thorough and well-researched book. Um, I really like this one. In fact, I've got it underlined. 16. I'm not just trying to cover controversial topics [laughs] but this is something I feel very passionate about. Tip number 16, understand that food is medicine, and the right diets can be as effective as many drugs.

    30. TS

      Yes. And I, I've changed my mind on this, um, certainly, you know, since I was a practicing doctor where, you know, we dismissed nutrition as being pretty trivial compared to our powerful drugs that we all, um, love to prescribe. And I think my, uh, I think the field of cancer has really opened my eyes to this, about the power of nutrition. Um, but yeah, just epidemiologically, calculations have said that if, uh, we moved the UK from its current diet to an optimum diet, we would reduce, uh, uh, chronic illness, chronic diseases by about 70%.

  12. 1:45:08 – 1:51:33

    The Future of Food and Rice Rabbit Holes

    1. TS

      I... My favorite chapter, I got a bit depressed writing it, 'cause A, it took so long [laughs] . It took six years. But, um, I think my favorite chapter is actually The Future of Food. Um, it's the one where I can see light at the end of the tunnel. Um, it's not all about the harmful effects of ultra-processed food. It's not about obesity. I can see us, uh, new technologies, particularly with fermented foods and what's called precision fermentation, um, and uses of microbes to actually grow proteins, that I see that as hugely exciting. And, you know, I'm, I get interactions with a lot of these startup companies who are making these stem cell meats and stem cell fish. You can, you know, now get prawns out of a test tube. That will have such a huge impact on climate change and the world if we can embrace it. And some of these are much closer than people think. Um, we're probably within three years of getting, um, meat substitutes that are, taste the same and are cheaper than the traditional American burger patty.

    2. RC

      How does that fit with, uh, ultra-processed foods? Because one of the critiques at some of these, uh, meat substitutes is that they're highly, highly processed, potentially not as good for the environment as is being marketed. So how do you put all that together?

    3. TS

      Well, that's definitely true for the, the current versions. So yes, you know, they're better for the environment. They're probably not much different for your health. You know, they're, compared to a cheap burger, you know, the, the artificial burger has lots of things you don't really want in there. But the next version, I've, I've seen prototypes that are a really c- clean label. They've got no artificial ingredients at all. They're using f- bacterial fermentation to break down my friend's mushrooms and tomatoes and, uh, other things into something that really tastes, if you, you just cook it right, just like meat. And, uh, at, you know, it's got lots of fiber and plants in it. So I see there's this huge potential for this revolution as we get rid of cheap meat and dairy, and we replace it with either a combination of these sort of stem cell foods that we're ferment, then ferment to give them extra texture and flavor and possibly as probiotics that we actually use them, you know, in a, in a, in a nutritious way. Plus actually creating protein, um, getting bacteria and yeast to, to actually make proteins that we can, um, uh, put into foods. But knowing all the problems that went into ultra-processed before, we can do this properly. So that was the bit that really filled me with some optimism because a lot of this is, you know, to read about our current food, um, there are lots of, you know, depressing bits in it.

    4. RC

      Mm.

    5. TS

      And people say, well, there's, you know, there's no future. But, you know, a lot of this book is about the environment. We haven't really discussed that. So it's, you know, taking each of the foods from an ethical standpoint, a health standpoint, but also what effect you have on the environment. And we've talked about food choices being, you know, the food choices we make are the most important thing we make for our health. You might argue differently, but I, I certainly think food choice is, is, is number one. Um, but it's also the most important thing we can do as individuals for the planet and climate change. And this whole future of food has got to bring in the planet as well as our gut microbes as well as our health. So there's the sort of-

    6. RC

      Yeah

    7. TS

      ... the three things there. So, uh, I think there's lots of fantastic tech in there that I think because they're starting from scratch, they can actually do this properly. And, uh, I, I, I was very excited by that. So that's the bit that cheered me up, and that's why I call it my favorite chapter.

    8. RC

      Well, you've certainly, uh, set the scene now for our follow-up conversation, our fifth conversation on my podcast, Tim, because, yeah, we've not really touched on the environment, which of course is something that's front and center in many people's minds. I know there's a lot of controversies there, uh, which is really worthy of a, a full-on conversation to go through. Again, I don't think we've even scratched the surface about what's in this book. There's chapters on fruits, on vegetables, on legumes, on rice, on pasta, breads.

    9. TS

      What's your favorite rice?

    10. RC

      White rice.

    11. TS

      Do you know, uh, Uncle Ben's Rice is, comes out as one of the, uh, healthiest ones.

    12. RC

      Does it?

    13. TS

      Yeah.

    14. RC

      In terms of blood sugar?

    15. TS

      Uh, in terms of nutrients.

    16. RC

      Really?

    17. TS

      Yes. And just because it's parboiled, so anything that's parboiled means you seal in a lot of the nutrients. So there are some surprising things in the book here that, uh [laughs] -

    18. RC

      No, there's loads of surprising stuff, you know. There, there really is. And, uh-

    19. TS

      And brown rice is not that much better than, uh, white rice.

    20. RC

      Yeah, I-

    21. TS

      That's the other depressing thing for me [laughs]

    22. RC

      Well, I found that really interesting, and we didn't really get into glyphosate and BPAs and Teflon-

    23. TS

      [laughs]

    24. RC

      ... and arsenic and the things I wanted to cover, so maybe we'll save that for the next one.

    25. TS

      Okay.

    26. RC

      But I find even in terms of rice, like, you know, my parents are from Kolkata in India, right? Bengali. And the way Bengalis do rice is you will get, um... You know, you'll put it... You'll, you'll put the, the rice in a, in a, I don't know, in some sort of pan, and you'll rinse it three times. And I remember as a kid, you know, Mom say, yeah, 'cause you, you take off the excess starch, right? Whereas the way some other cultures or my wife, who's also Indian but from a Gujarati background, uh, she'll do it slightly differently. Or I know, um, some cultures, some countries in the Far East will... You know, they'll make sticky rice in a way that all that water is part of it. So even the, um, you know, the lowly white rice can be made in a whole selection of different ways that is likely to have a different blood sugar profile and all kinds of things. So I find it really, really interesting.

    27. TS

      Yeah, I know. As you get into it, you just get more and more... You know, getting down in, in these little rabbit holes, it was really fun.

  13. 1:51:33 – 1:56:14

    Fathers, Legacy and Closing

    1. RC

      Tim, just to finish off, yesterday was quite a significant day for me. I didn't realize it until I was thinking about it over dinner. It was 10 years, uh, yesterday since my dad died. And Dad's ill health and that journey of caring for Dad and now for my mum has played a huge part in my adult life. It's, uh, informed a lot of what I do now, how I interact with people, how I think about health. And I recently heard you talk about your dad, who I believe died quite suddenly when he was tw... When, when you were 21 years old.

    2. TS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. RC

      I often wonder what my dad would think of my career today. He's a conventional medical doctor, you know. Um, I wonder what he would think of all the things that his son now talks about in books and podcasts all over the world now. What do you think your dad would think about what you're doing?

    4. TS

      Um, I don't know. I think... I mean, he wrote some books and as he died, he was, he was writing a book, uh, called Social Pathology, which was trying to link psychology and, uh, social science with pathology. So I think he'd have actually embraced a lot of the, the, uh, in a way, um, vulgarization of, of the science to the, to the public, I think. Um, uh, yeah, I, I think he would have appreciated it. And, um, and, yeah, he was a, a questioning... He was a research doctor as well, a pathologist, and had a q- a questioning mind. So I, I think he would have been fascinated, but, by, uh, what I'm doing now. Probably a bit surprised that I'd, uh, ended up in this particular [laughs] area from where, uh, I was at the age of 21, where, you know, I wasn't looking like I had much potential at all, I would, I would say. Um.

    5. RC

      Do you think the fact that he was an author, um, has influenced you in terms of you now writing books? Is any part of that related to your dad, do you think?

    6. TS

      Uh, I think possibly. I, I, I did, uh, update his... He wrote a pathology book, which was quite a dull topic, if you remember, in, in medical school.

    7. RC

      I do.

    8. TS

      But he, he did have a few jokes in it, and so, um, uh, I, I did enjoy tho- tho- those bits that, um, uh, you know, it's like s- we have the same, had the same s- sense of humor, the sarcasm, and, uh, sort of rather black humor. Uh, so I, I did edit his book, um, uh, another edition. Um, you know, as, as the number of cytokines increased, you had to... There were only two interleukins when he wrote it, and they all sort of... [sniffs] I think there's now over 35. But the, um... So yeah, that gave me a little taste of it. Um, so that probably made it easier for me to, um, go on and write books, which is, for most people, quite a big step, as you know, 'cause it-

    9. RC

      Mm

    10. TS

      ... it's a huge commitment, and, um, that stops most people doing it. But, you know, uh... But, you know, the sad bit is I didn't know him that well, and that was my, my big sort of regret is that at 21, just starting to have a sort of adult relationship, um, with your parents, and then, uh, yeah, it, it got cut short, and I was, you know, very busy as a medical student. So-

    11. RC

      Yeah

    12. TS

      ... you know, you didn't get much time. So, but yeah, I'd like to think he was, um, uh, he's up there somewhere, um, smiling, uh, at all this attention about me talking about exercise and calories.

    13. RC

      [laughs] I'm sure he is, Tim. I'm sure he would be incredibly proud of you. I think you've done a fabulous job over the last years at putting real foods on the map, helping people understand that they can make choices in their own life that will improve their health, their family's health, the planet's health. Thanks for coming on the podcast.

    14. TS

      Been a pleasure. [upbeat music]

    15. RC

      If you enjoyed that conversation, I think you are really going to enjoy this one about the impacts of sugar on your body and brain.

    16. SP

      When you consume sugar, you are poisoning your mitochondria. Sugar and cyanide do the same thing. This is the toxin

Episode duration: 1:56:14

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