The Monk That Will Change Your Future - 5 Ways We All Waste Our Life Away... | Haemin Sunim

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:00 You have been a Buddhist monk now for twenty-five years. In your opinion, what are people struggling with today the most?

Haemin Sunim 0:12 I think it's relationships. You know, peoples have many responsibilities, so there are things that they are supposed to do, but at the same time, they also wanna do their own thing. [chuckles] So this clash between, uh, what I would call me of me versus me of others. You know, me of others here means, um, what other people expect me to be versus me of me, that is the one that I want to become, and this clash of this desire, two opposite, you know, force, uh, creating tension within me. So for example, uh, I'm supposed to, um, take care of my parents, [chuckles] but at the same time, I have aspirations, so I need to maybe move to a different city and to get promoted and do better job. So what do I do, you know, between these two, uh, important [chuckles] , uh, desires? Um, the one that I want to take good care of my parents, or it is also responsible. Uh, you know, it, it's my responsibility to take good care of my parents. But at the same time, I also feel like I have, you know, something I can contribute, contribute and develop and grow, uh, in my own professional way.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36 I think that's a really powerful example. In your new book, you write about these two mes, and it's, it's really, it's a really interesting concept to think about. But also, when you give that example, it makes me think of the modern world. Is this something that you think was a problem five hundred years ago, for example, when people, generally speaking, wouldn't leave where they grew up? They would stay there. They'd help their family. They'd do whatever, but they wouldn't move to another city or another country for better opportunities. Therefore, their responsibilities would be met in that way. I guess what- where I'm going with this is, is this a problem of the modern world, where we now do have these opportunities and these exciting things that attract us so that we can chase our dreams, but at the same time, perhaps neglect what we feel are our responsibilities?

Haemin Sunim 2:37 Hmm. I do not know. [chuckles]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 2:41 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 2:41 But I would assume that the same, uh, clash of these two different me of me or versus me of others have existed ever since, I don't know, ancient time. Um, maybe it's not necessarily they have to leave the city they were brought up, but they might have some different ideas about what I want to become-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:05 Mm

Haemin Sunim 3:05 ... you know, their job or maybe different type of family, you know, obligations versus, uh, the, the new way of, you know, doing things from their perspective. Uh, so I think this-- I wouldn't say this would be, is something brand new phenomena.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:22 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 3:23 Yeah. Um, maybe the way those two, um, problems were, uh, manifest, uh, it could have been somewhat different, but, uh, yeah. [chuckles]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:33 Yeah. Do you struggle with the two mes?

Haemin Sunim 3:37 Yes, I do, of course. [chuckles] Yeah. We all do, right? Um, they, there is some, you know, aspect of me I would like to, uh, become, and there is also expectation of me that I have to perform and carry out as a Buddhist monk. So I try to, uh, balance these two, and so that I can have, uh, you know, you know, wellness [chuckles] of my mental state, uh, you know, health and, you know, happiness. Um, so yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:11 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:13 I've heard you talk about your own personal story when you left Korea, and you went to the United States, I think in your late teens or early twenties. And you said that it wasn't until you went back, or it wasn't until you left, that you realized the gold that was already there in Korea, and I think that's a really powerful message for all of us. In English, we have this phrase, "The grass is always greener," and I think that really speaks to that. Can you tell me about that a little bit?

Haemin Sunim 4:46 Yes. Um, I think, you know, this is also the case for any spiritual practitioner. That is, they think that the final enlightenment or the goal, uh, i- in order to achieve it, uh, you have to leave, you know, where you are, and then you journey through, and then finally only to realize that you already had it from the beginning. So that was also the case for me. That is, uh, when I left Korea, I began to really appreciate my own traditions, [chuckles] you know, my own, uh... For me, it was a, you know, spiritual tradition in Buddhism, and I really began to study Zen Buddhism, um, only when I left Korea. Uh, as I was studying them kind of from afar, uh, I began to see a little more objectively, and I began to really appreciate the beauty of the traditions and profound, you know, teachings. Um, so yes. [chuckles]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:46 Yeah. That applies to all of us really, doesn't it? Because often we feel that a nicer house, and then we're gonna feel happier.

Haemin Sunim 5:59 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:00 Or if I split up with this person and get into a new relationship with somebody else, I'm going to be happier. And of course- That may well be the case, but at the same time, wherever you go, you are always there.

Haemin Sunim 6:15 Right. Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:15 And so, yeah, I mean, h- how can people navigate that, though? Because it is, it is... it's quite a common human tendency, isn't it, to think that elsewhere is where the gold is?

Haemin Sunim 6:30 Right. The-- they tend to think that, um, you know, it's-- the problem is outside, you know, or the goal that I try to arrive at, it is located outside. Um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:44 Did you think that when you went to America? Did you think America had the gold?

Haemin Sunim 6:48 Not necessarily America [laughs] per se, but I just wanted to see beyond Korea, you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:54 Mm-hmm

Haemin Sunim 6:54 ... because I was very young. Um, you know, when we are having any kind of, you know, relationship problems, like for example, then we tend to blame other people, you know? "They are the cause of my unhappiness." And only to find out that when they are in a new relationship, they end up having similar, you know, problem again. [laughs] So then, you know, as you re- as you are repeating the same mistake again, and maybe one more time, and then you-- it dawns on you that, "Oh, maybe it's my innate psychological pattern," you know, maybe unprocessed trauma or maybe, you know, some of the problems that I'm, that I haven't dealt with-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 7:39 Mm-hmm

Haemin Sunim 7:39 ... you know, that is keep on, uh, causing, you know, those problems, you know, similar problem again and again. So maybe one of the important step for me is to take good care of [laughs] those needs and those unexpressed emotions, uh, and examine them as opposed to just quickly jump into conclusion that it is others that they are causing me to be so unhappy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:05 How do people go about examining their own emotions?

Haemin Sunim 8:11 Oh, well, I think, you know, one of the easiest way is to check in with your body, you know? Our body is actually wiser than we think. [laughs] So all of our subconscious influence, uh, I think your body is feeling it, although your consciousness may not acknowledge that you have that kind of impact.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:33 Mm-hmm.

Haemin Sunim 8:33 Uh, so for example, you know, somebody say, "Oh, I'm not angry" [laughs] after, I don't know, big, you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 8:39 Mm-hmm

Haemin Sunim 8:39 ... uh, event that happened, and yet six, seven, or eight month later they're beginning to develop different physical illness. [laughs] So I think it's a good idea to check in. How is my shoulders feeling, you know? How is my gut feeling, [laughs] you know? Is there any pain? Usually, uh, when we are repressing or when we are, uh, resisting it, uh, it manifests in our own body.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:07 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 9:08 Um, so also, you know, when it's clearly it's a psychological, you know, when there is some kind of stress, then, uh, just realize that, "Oh, there is stress," you know? Rather than running away, rather than try to, uh, ignore it, uh, just sit with that emotions. I talk about in my book, you know, when things don't go your way, you know, the first chapter was about, you know, uh, sitting with difficult, you know, challenging emotions.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:38 Mm-hmm.

Haemin Sunim 9:38 Because if you can just sit with your emotions, uh, as opposed to running away, it reveal some of the great, you know, um, lessons, you know, truth about yourself. Uh, so, uh, until you actually see the truth, uh, that emotion will linger on and s- you know, continuously influencing you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:01 Yeah. I think that's so important, isn't it? I love what you said about the wisdom our body holds.

Haemin Sunim 10:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:10 And I think in our head-driven cultures that many of us live in, we have kind of forgotten about our bodies. I know I'm much better every day when I spend some time by myself each morning and tuning into my body. You know, how does it feel? Where is there tension? When I take a deep breath, where is there some sort of restriction? Where is there not? I also like what you said about sometimes we're saying we're not feeling an emotion, but your body is actually telling a different story. You mentioned that eight or nine months later something else can happen, but even in the moment, I've seen this in, in disagreements all the time where someone will say, "I'm not angry. I'm totally relaxed."

Haemin Sunim 10:53 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:54 And everyone around them can see that your body language-

Haemin Sunim 10:58 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:58 ... is saying something completely different from the words that are coming out your mouth. So we kinda deceive ourselves, don't we?

Haemin Sunim 11:04 Right. Right. [laughs] I think my- our body, they don't lie.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:08 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 11:08 So, uh, we have to tune in to what our bodies, they, what, what they are saying.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 11:16 How do you specifically do that? And I guess as a follow-on, if someone has never heard that concept before, can you walk them through, like, a simple practice? You know, it's, it's okay for us to say, you know, "You gotta tune into your body," but someone's gonna be listening to this thinking, "Well, I don't know what that means. What, what, what does Haemin want me to do?" So can you help advise them?

Haemin Sunim 11:38 Um, it is called body scanning, you know? It's a very simple meditations. You would just scan through your body, you know, starting from your head and to your, uh, maybe your tongue and face, face and neck, uh, back of your neck or shoulder, uh, chest, your tummy, your buttocks, your legs and feet. Um, just go through and see how they are feeling. Uh, you are not bringing any kind of judgment, you know, to that, uh, experience, uh, saying, "Oh, I'm not supposed to feel that way," or, you know, "Maybe this is not- You know, not a nice feeling. Uh, you know, just you're gonna hold, uh, that judgment, and yet, uh, just see what is there. You know? You get to-- You want to see the truth. And once you see the truth, interestingly, without you trying to, you know, loosening it, it r- generally, uh, it let it goes. So the parts, the tension that you feel, uh, without... Even if you don't try to, uh, release it, uh, because you have seen the truth, uh, it generally l- you know, let it go, the muscle.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:51 I think that's such a key point, which I only really became aware of in the last few years, this idea that you can feel it, but you're not feeling it so that you can consciously change it. You're just feeling it and noticing it, and then it starts to change.

Haemin Sunim 13:10 Right. By its own. You know, you don't, you don't have to do anything, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:15 Yeah. See, I don't think many people realize that. And talking about these emotions that we sometimes have that we don't express or do something with, there was a very powerful bit of writing in your new book, uh, about anger. If you don't mind, I just wanna read it to you. "If you express your anger without any filter, it will become bad karma and return to you. If you just suppress your anger and bottle it up, it will then emerge as an illness in your body. If you quietly observe the energy of your anger, it will change shape on its own and disappear."

Haemin Sunim 13:55 Absolutely. [laughs] Yeah. I, I, you know, experienced it, um, again and again. That is, if I can just honor, you know, what my emotion is right now, you know, how am I, how am I feeling? And as soon as I recognize, you know, and, and label, name it, either anger or frustration or, um, sadness, you know, whatever that is, and then you peel that, you know, sticker off-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:25 Mm-hmm

Haemin Sunim 14:25 ... the label off, and get in touch with the energy right underneath that emotions, then what happen is that energy of the feeling, emotion, naturally, slowly evolve. And then, uh, soon, sooner or later, it disappears.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:44 You need patience for this, though, don't you? You need to create time, you need to create space, and you need patience. Because if you're constantly in a rush, you don't have time to sit there with your emotions, do you?

Haemin Sunim 14:58 It takes only 90 seconds.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:00 Okay

Haemin Sunim 15:00 You know? The, the change of that, you know, seeing the, you know, change of your emotion, it takes about 90 second, so.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:07 Okay, 90 seconds. So you're-- Let's say you're doing your body scan in the morning.

Haemin Sunim 15:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:10 You know? You've had a, an average night's sleep, let's say. And as part of your kind of routine, let's say, in the morning, you just sit there and you do this body scan. And let's say you notice, "Oh, my stomach feels tight." Of course, many people feel anxiety and tension in their stomach. So are you saying that a lot of the time, if you just sit there and put your attention there, that within 90 seconds, a lot of the time, it's just gonna start to change?

Haemin Sunim 15:39 Um, usually when it comes to our psychological emotions, you know, that's how I experience it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:46 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 15:46 That's... It takes about 90 seconds. You know, within those time, uh, you generally see the change and then, you know, sh- reshaping of your emotions. And then, and then, you know, soon enough, uh, it disappears, or you move on to another topic, or you don't think about it anymore-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:04 Mm

Haemin Sunim 16:04 ... you know, generally. Um, maybe you are, you know, outside and listening to the sounds of bird. And so rather than f- you know, focusing on your frustration, you are now focusing on the beautiful sounds, you know, of, you know, birds outside. And thereby, you are not as stressed anymore. [laughs] Um, when it comes to, you know, bodily, you know, feeling tension, it might require a little more time than 90 seconds. Uh, but the fact that you are acknowledging it's there.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:34 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 16:34 Yeah? And that's a really great, important, you know, first step. And as soon as you, you know, have that acknowledgement, then, you know, you can actually... The fact that you are paying attention-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 16:47 Mm

Haemin Sunim 16:47 ... to that, uh, bodily sensation is a sign of your love, sign of your, you know, caring. Your... You know what I mean? So you are giving the, the energy of care, energy of love. And that particular, uh, you know, intention of, you know, wanting to care for your body, uh, that will, uh, by itself, uh, you know, help you relax and release that tension.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:12 What would you say the cost is of not doing that? And I guess what I'm getting at is what I've seen over and over again, and fallen into the trap of myself in the past, is you ignore these bodily sensations, you stay in your head, and you start distracting with news or Instagram or whatever it might be. Even reading, perhaps. Right? You distract. You're putting your attention outwards. And once your attention goes outwards, unless you're very intentional, it's very hard, I find, for people to pull it back inwards.

Haemin Sunim 17:55 Hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:55 Is that your experience as well?

Haemin Sunim 17:57 Yeah. Uh, you, you can, you know, uh, easily be distracted, yes. Uh, but at night you'll feel it, you know? [laughs] Right before you go to sleep. "Oh, my goodness, what's happening [laughs] ar- around my shoulder or, or my back?" You know? It is-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:13 Mm

Haemin Sunim 18:13 ... there's so much tensions. Um, so- Sooner or later, your, your body will, you know, start screaming, you know, unless you are, uh, paying attention and, and maybe start massaging the area or do, you know, do some, give some care.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:30 Is the body scan something you do each day?

Haemin Sunim 18:33 Um, my daily routine is somewhat different, but whenever I feel tension, I do apply, you know, body scan method. Uh, but my daily routine is a little bit different.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 18:47 Are you open to sharing some of your daily routine? Because I guess a lot of us would love to know and understand what it is that a monk does every day to see if we can learn something from that.

Haemin Sunim 18:58 Hmm. Um, there isn't any particular form that I follow. Rather, as I am carrying out my daily life, I try to see the emptiness, uh, um, impermanence of the things. So, you know, whatever I experience, I can clearly see the impermanence of that experience. And when I see that, then I generally can let go very quickly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 19:30 Can you share a practical example of that? Because I think what you've just said has got so many profound implications. But I'd love you to sort of maybe help people understand a, a regular day-to-day scenario that they may come across, that they may get attached to, but you're saying actually that your skill or something you've cultivated is the ability to know that this is impermanence.

Haemin Sunim 20:00 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:01 Any examples come to mind?

Haemin Sunim 20:03 Um, maybe, y- you know, when you are feeling annoyed, for example, in the morning on your way to your work-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:09 Okay

Haemin Sunim 20:09 ... and you run into, you know, somebody who was very annoying, maybe in your subway or, you know, while you're driving, you know. Um, and then after arriving at your work and, you know, start maybe, uh, turning on your computer and whatnot, and realize that it is not there anymore, the annoyance. Not there anymore. [laughs] You know what I mean?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:37 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 20:37 Yes. [laughs] It's simple as that. You know, you-- Only if you, uh, you know, rethink about it and try to bring, uh, those memory again and again, and thereby holding on to that, you know, event of annoyance-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 20:52 Mm

Haemin Sunim 20:52 ... then you feel as though you are entrapped in that, you know, experience of, you know, very negative, you know, experience. However, if you can see that, the whatever that really was bothering you, it's not here in front of your eyes. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:09 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 21:09 Isn't that magical? You know, whatever that, that really bothered you, you know, like, uh, ten minutes ago, it's not here anymore. It's impermanent, and your, the true nature is that which recognize everything as it is, not the contents of very experience.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:31 That example reminds me of one of the final sections in your new book called Discovering the True Self.

Haemin Sunim 21:37 Uh-huh.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:37 I was reading that last night, and after reading it, I had one of the most blissful meditations I've had in months, and I credit you for that. Honestly, it was, it was absolutely beautiful because you were, you were writing, and I think this speaks to impermanence. You were writing about that tranquil silence, the formless silence, and how thoughts and feelings have form, but ultimately, I think you said something like, "When the thought finishes, that's where the silence is." And I remember last night I was just meditating, and the thought came, and I waited for it to end, and then there was just calm until the next thought came. And the more I tuned into those little moments of calm, the greater they became until at some point, maybe five minutes in, there was just this really prolonged periods. I, I can't think of any other word.

Haemin Sunim 22:47 Peace.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 22:48 Yeah. I was gonna say bliss, but yeah, peace. It was just-- it was beautiful, so thank you for that.

Haemin Sunim 22:54 Oh, thank you. [laughs] You know, people often think that there, if there isn't anything to think about, we will get bored. [laughs] And thereby we are jumping from one, you know, uh, idea or, or one content, one thought to another thoughts, to another event, you know? They don't want to just relax. They just want to constantly engage with something. But the truth is, uh, we want-- our true nature is peace. That is, if we can just relax and enjoy the moment when there's no more thought, and yet you are aware that there's no more thought, yeah, in this empty and transparent awareness, uh, that's your true nature.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:51 Do you think being happy is our true nature?

Haemin Sunim 23:55 Yes. [laughs] People often think, you know, happiness, uh, means excitement, you know? [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:02 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 24:02 When we are excited, then, you know, we feel happy. But, you know, if we want everlasting happiness, then, uh, excitement, uh, you cannot, you know, sustain it for a long time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:15 Mm-hmm.

Haemin Sunim 24:15 Uh, it fades. It disappears, you know? So, um, what we really want is some quality of peace. You know, in happiness experience, happy experience.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:27 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 24:27 So, um, our true nature, I believe, is, uh, in a state of, you know, peace and when we are not trying to go somewhere or arrive at, you know, other places, and yet you f- you, you are relaxed, you know, here and now-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 24:45 Mm

Haemin Sunim 24:45 ... and you are content with what you already have, or you feel grateful for what you already have, then that's where the, you know, happiness arrive, you know, lives. Rather than constantly trying to go somewhere. You know, like what you said earlier, you know, [laughs] when I was younger, I thought that by going to abroad, uh, that's where, you know, happiness [laughs] will, you know, reside, or by trying to have a, some special kind of enlightenment experience-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:15 Mm

Haemin Sunim 25:15 ... you know, for me it was, then I will finally be able to, uh, feel happiness. Then later I realized that the very seeking of those experience, you know, the very trying to go away from right now, right here, that was the cause of unhappiness. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:33 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 25:33 Yeah. So...

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 25:36 Yeah. I, I love that. I, I think... First of all, I completely agree. I've had s- many guests over the years who have said that happiness is not our default state, and that we are wired to seek survival, right? So the brain is not wired to be happy. It's wired to do the things necessary to keep us alive and reproduce. Now, whilst I don't disagree with that, I think, yes, we are wired to do that. I do believe that once those basic needs are met, I also believe that happiness is our default state. And when I was writing my book on happiness, I was thinking, "Well, what, how do I know that? Why do I believe that to be true?" And one of the reasons I believe that to be true is if you look at kids, most kids anywhere in the world, two, three year, three years old, right? On a warm spring day, they'll be in the garden. They'll be totally calm, content, present, in the moment, doing what they're doing. And I watch kids and I go, "That's who we are. That's our default state. I'm sure of it. That is our default state." So firstly, yes, I, I, I also see the world that way. That's obviously a very Buddhist thing and, you know, that's how... My understanding is that that's how Buddhism sees happiness, that it is our true nature. I also love what you said about the seeking of happiness is fundamentally flawed. And last year, there was a Swedish journalist interviewing me about happiness, and I remember she said to me, "Dr. Chatterjee, how do you know when you're happy?" And it took me a minute or two to think about it. I thought that's a really good question. How do you know? And the answer I gave, and the answer I would give now is, I think you know when you... [laughs] Again, I'm not saying you have achieved happiness, when you've uncovered the happiness that already exists within. It's when you just stop wanting stuff. Like, for me, I don't know, I just don't want anything. [laughs] You know, like-

Haemin Sunim 28:03 Wonderful

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:05 ... and I've-- Look, I've worked on this, so I feel I, you know, I put into practice. I've been experimenting for many, many years, but there's very little I want in life. I, I feel that I have a, just a wonderful life. I'm very grateful for it. And so if someone asked you, "How do you know when you're happy?" What answer would you give?

Haemin Sunim 28:32 I think gratitude, you know, is another name for happiness.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:36 Mm-hmm.

Haemin Sunim 28:37 As I was, um, coming to see you, I was inside a, in a train and looking out, beautiful countryside-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:46 Yeah

Haemin Sunim 28:46 ... of the, you know, the, you know, Uni- United Kingdom. Oh, and I was thinking to myself [laughs] , "This is so wonderful." You know? I get to have this, you know, beautiful experience, and I feel very grateful for the opportunity. And as I was tapping into the gratitude, I felt really happy. So when we are practicing, uh, gratitude, uh, we are, you know, happy at where we are. [laughs] We are not trying to, uh, grasp onto something that we don't w- we don't have or resisting what we already have. Instead, we are just thankful for where we are, and I think that's where happiness resides.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 29:32 How does that apply to someone who maybe i- is not currently happy in their life? Let's say they're doing a job that they don't particularly like, that maybe doesn't pay them enough so that they feel comfortable. They may say, "Well, I get what you're saying, but I don't have anything to be grateful for. I will be happier when I get paid a bit more money and when I have a better job that is more fulfilling for me." How would you help someone like that think about this?

Haemin Sunim 30:04 Um, I, hmm. I think gratitude attract, you know, more gratitude. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:13 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 30:14 So when we can find some things to be grateful for, even in the moment that it's very difficult to find gratitude, uh, then- What you will see is that unexpected opportunity [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:28 Mm

Haemin Sunim 30:28 ... comes to you. Um, just by remaining, you know, just critical and being cynical, um, usually it doesn't help you in the long run. Uh, rather, if you can just, uh, just grateful for very little things. It can be-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 30:44 Mm

Haemin Sunim 30:44 ... just the fact that I am trying to better my situations, you know? Try to get, get a better job, and try to take care of my, you know, health. The, the very effort that I'm making, I'm very grateful. So rather than thinking about, you know, huge things-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:03 Mm

Haemin Sunim 31:03 ... to be grateful for, you know, you can just start with just, you know, small thing in your life. And as you are counting your blessing, and you will see that more opportunities, you know, unexpected opportunities will come to you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:17 Yeah. To make sure you're taking action after watching this video, I've created a free breathing guide that's gonna help you reduce stress, calm your mind, and boost your energy. In this guide, I share with you six really simple breathing practices that work immediately. Even just one minute a day will start to make a big difference. To receive your free guide, all you have to do is click on the link in the description box below. It's a practice, isn't it? It's something you get better at the more you do.

Haemin Sunim 31:49 Right. Y- Generally speaking, you know, when we think about things, we always, uh, think about negative things [laughs] problems that we have to-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 31:57 Mm

Haemin Sunim 31:57 ... deal with, or, you know, the task that I have to finish. Um, so thereby, we feel a lot of stress. Uh, however, you know, when we practice gratitude, uh, rather than, uh, going into that thinking mind, we are actually looking for what is there to feel, you know, grateful for at this moment, because we are practicing this gratitude. And I write that in my book, uh, one of the ways is finding gratitude buddy. [laughs] So you would text whenever you feel, you know, [laughs] grateful for, you'll just text, send a, you know, simple text message to your, uh, friend.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:36 Mm-hmm.

Haemin Sunim 32:37 And then your friends will see that message, and probably this message will motivate him or her to write back, you know, and then look for-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:46 Yeah

Haemin Sunim 32:47 ... more, you know, [laughs] gratitude in their lives.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:51 Yeah, I think gratitude is one of the most underrated practices, and we, we hear it all the time. We see cute memes on Instagram talking about this, but it ain't enough. You've gotta go and do it.

Haemin Sunim 33:02 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:03 You have to do it, don't you?

Haemin Sunim 33:04 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:04 You have to make it a practice that you are going to think about gratitude. And I don't know what you would advise for people. Like, are you a fan of people writing down things that they're grateful for, or can you just think about it?

Haemin Sunim 33:17 I think writing down is better, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:19 Yeah, so do I.

Haemin Sunim 33:20 Um, so, like if you cannot find any gratitude buddy, you know, you can just text to yourself, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:27 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 33:28 Uh, [laughs] you know, you can just send a text message. So, uh, you'll see that, uh, maybe, you know, a week or in a month later, you know, y- you know, huge list of things that you feel-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:39 Yeah

Haemin Sunim 33:39 ... very grateful for. And you can just go back and read it whenever you feel a little down, and feeling-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:45 That's a great tip.

Haemin Sunim 33:46 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:46 Just text it to yourself, and then you don't need to... Great, if you've got a friend you can do it with, wonderful, but if you don't, that's just such a beautiful way of putting deposits in your gratitude bank each day.

Haemin Sunim 33:58 Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 33:59 Yeah. In the, in the section on happiness in this book, you've got just so many wonderful quotes about it. There's two in particular I really like. "People have realized that happiness comes down to knowing how to appreciate the life that you have been given in this moment." It's so simple, but it's so easy to not do that. It speaks to gratitude, doesn't it? It's about appreciation. It's about, the way I think about it and talk to people about it, is this idea that you do have this negativity bias in your brain for very good reasons. It's kept you alive for many, many years. But gratitude is the only way to counteract that. So if you do nothing actively, you'll naturally go towards negativity. So if you wanna take control of that, you have to actively, positively train yourself to appreciate things. And if you find it hard at first, just keep showing up and doing it, and within weeks, you will start to see gratitude and appreciation everywhere. Again, one of the reasons I feel, generally speaking, so calm and content these days, and, and dare I say it, happy, it's because I believe that, and, and you write about this idea in your book, that where you put your focus, that's what starts to grow.

Haemin Sunim 35:31 Absolutely. Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:33 Yeah?

Haemin Sunim 35:33 So [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:35 Please speak to that.

Haemin Sunim 35:37 I think we have to make a decisions. You know, we have to decide to appreciate our lives. We have to decide to enjoy this moment. You know, once you decided that I'm going to enjoy this moment, then it make it, you know, it makes it much easier [laughs] to appreciate things. Uh, without that intention, it's hard. You know, the life just pass you, pass us by, and without really, you know, becoming aware of what we are having it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:08 I, I, I love that. Let, let's just pause on that for, for a moment. You're saying you have to decide that you are going to enjoy the moment that's about to be there in front of you.

Haemin Sunim 36:20 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:20 Right? Now, I think many people believe that the moment will determine whether I feel enjoyment. If it is a fun and enjoyable moment, I will feel happy. If it is a negative moment, I will feel negative and sad. But you're saying something completely different, which is before the moment arises, you have to positively decide, "I'm going to enjoy it."

Haemin Sunim 36:45 Yes. Because, uh, if you are just reacting, um, you are the victim. You, you'll become the victim of the situations. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 36:54 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 36:54 And you are, y- you know, there are a lot of things that's happening to you, and you'll be pulled, you know, towards many different directions. However, uh, I think we have to be proactive, you know, rather than being reactive. So once you decide, you know, how you're going to do or how you're going to feel, um, then oftentimes that's the experience you're going to have. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:20 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:23 Talk to me about small but certain happiness.

Haemin Sunim 37:26 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 37:26 Wonderful chapter in your book, and I think it's a very simple concept that I think everyone's gonna resonate with.

Haemin Sunim 37:32 [laughs] Thank you. Um, I think oftentimes people imagine that they will finally, you know, feel happy, and I can... I will be able to relax only when I achieve, you know, some monumental, uh, goals in my life. You know, such as maybe marrying somebody, you know, uh, love of your life or, you know, buying your first home or getting promoted to the, the, a position that you really want. Uh, but while you are [laughs] getting there, you also have to live your life, and it usually takes a long time [laughs] to arrive at your goal. Uh, so I think it's important we look for what I would call small but certain happiness. Uh, this is not my idea. This is an idea that, uh, many people, you know, propose. Uh, but I think it is so important-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:31 Mm

Haemin Sunim 38:31 ... to look for, uh, you know, something that's going to for sure make you happy. [laughs] And then do it again and again [laughs] and again.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:41 Yeah. Yeah, there's, there's so many, there's so many nuggets of wisdom in this book, right? And, and just speaking to what you just said now, in that section on small but certain happiness, it's, it, it's just so simple. You say this: "For some, the fragrant smell of freshly made morning coffee is a time of peace and happiness, while for others it could be the warmth of the sun on their face, the sight of spring flowers, the feel of a cozy blanket on a chilly day, or simply spending time with their dog or cat after work." Now, here's the thing, Haemin. A lot of people listening are experiencing those things every day, but many won't have put the spotlight of gratitude onto them.

Haemin Sunim 39:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:30 So let's say someone has got half an hour to get up and get ready for work and get the kids, you know, off to school or whatever it might be. They might make their morning coffee, rush and slurp it down whilst also getting things ready for work, right? So they've still had the experience of drinking freshly made morning coffee, but the intention behind it is very different.

Haemin Sunim 39:58 Right. Right. So it takes only 10 seconds. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:01 Okay.

Haemin Sunim 40:02 That is, "Wait, I'm just going to actually enjoy the smell of freshly made coffee." You know, this intentions, and then you pause a little bit, and then you re-engage with the experience, and from that moment, uh, you say, "Wow, this is happiness." [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:20 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 40:21 You know, uh, rather than searching for some, you know, big things in your life, big success to be happy, maybe this is what I was after, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:32 Yeah. I like the idea that it only takes 10 seconds or even five seconds.

Haemin Sunim 40:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:36 Sure, you're in a rush in the morning. Just take a simple pause-

Haemin Sunim 40:39 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:39 ... 30 seconds. Smell the coffee quite literally. Let it tickle your senses.

Haemin Sunim 40:45 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:46 You know, just that act, you're just starting to open up the door to appreciation, aren't you?

Haemin Sunim 40:52 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:52 There, there's also this lovely concept of appreciation versus ownership that you write about. If you view happiness as a matter of appreciation rather than ownership, many things you can't own, such as the sunlight in your room, the laughter of children, a loving embrace, the colors of autumn foliage, a stunning sunset, the soothing sounds of music at night, the triumph of your favorite sports team, these things can bring happiness into your life. The important thing is whether you can slow down and appreciate life. I, I really like that. It's the same ideas that we, that we've just been talking about, but it's a really peaceful concept. Think about the things that you can't own. That's really nice. It's a really nice place to put your focus on, I think.

Haemin Sunim 41:40 Yes. I think we need to, uh, shift our idea, you know, away from ownership to appreciations, you know, when it comes to happiness. Um, there are lots and lots of things in our lives we cannot own, you know? Even if we own something, uh, in the... but in the grand scheme of things, we are just temporarily, you know, uh, caretaking or, or guarding, you know, whatever that is. It can be very expensive, you know, paintings or, you know, whatever. Uh, so at the end, uh, it's a matter of, you know, appreciations. Even if you have, uh, really wonderful things, even if you own wonderful things, if you are not appreciating, then what's the point? [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:26 Yeah. As you were talking then, I had a memory of when I was a child, and every other summer we'd go to Kolkata in India for six weeks 'cause that's where my grandparents lived, all my family lived. And I can still remember- I, I, I think a lot about this these days actually. I can still remember landing in the airports, and then we'd be getting a taxi to my dad's family's house where my grandma lived, and it's such a culture shock, like the, the colors, the noises, the landscape was so different in India to what I'm used to here in the UK. And I always would remember you'd be driving past what looked like slums, and there were kids who clearly didn't have much, and I'm not at all romanticizing that existence. But I always remember seeing families and kids squatting, like brushing their teeth around the drains in the roads, but smiling and kicking water-

Haemin Sunim 43:34 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:34 ... from the wells to each other, and just sheer delight on their faces. Again, I'm not romanticizing that existence, but I think it speaks to this idea that, hey, they didn't have much, but from what I could see, and that's just a limited view of their life, there seemed to be a real, I don't know, playfulness and appreciation of what was there in that moment.

Haemin Sunim 43:59 Yes, absolutely. Uh, I think, you know, when we are born into this world, uh, we are given, you know, many different type of experience.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:09 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 44:10 And, uh, you know, whatever that experience may be, we are here to learn. And one of the important key lesson, I think whether we can appreciate, you know, what's in front of us. Uh, and if we can, then, um, that's where happiness lies, I think.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:29 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:31 The new book is called When Things Don't Go Your Way. It's, it's a provocative title. I really like it. I guess most people believe, or most people think it is a good thing when things do go their way. But one of the central cases you make in this book is that we don't always want things to go our way, because when they don't go our way, there's real opportunity, isn't there?

Haemin Sunim 45:03 Yes. And we don't know whether, you know, we'll be happy, you know, [laughs] if everything goes the way, like the way we wanted. Like for example, you know, uh, somebody who just fall in love and, and imagine that, uh, "If I get to marry that person, then I'll be happy forever." [laughs] And then actually this person get to marry, and only after two, three years later they are getting divorced. [laughs] So you don't know [laughs] just because things are going like the way you want it, this is going to bring happiness to you. We are... we simply do not know. In Zen tradition, and this mind is called don't-know mind, we have to just bring this don't-know mind to all situations, and having this open, you know, um, open mindset, you know? So, uh, rather than imagining, "I already know [laughs] what will happen," uh, we should bring instead, you know, don't-know mind. I don't know whether it's going to, uh, bring me, you know, more opportunity or happiness or we don't know whether it's going to, uh, bring disappointments. You know, whatever that is, if we can just bring this mind of, you know, openness and appreciations, then we'll feel at the end our life is actually, uh, full. Uh, you know, we are having very, you know, enriching experience.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:30 I think that's a great example. If we meet the love of our life and we propose to them and they say yes, we feel, "Yeah, that's what I wanted. That's gonna be amazing." And a lot of the time it is, but if you look at current divorce rates, you'd have to say [laughs] a lot of the time it isn't. But if we take that don't-know-mind approach, how does that actually work in real life? Let's say, I don't know, let's say there's someone listening to this right now who has just got engaged, and they're getting married this summer, right? So they're excited, you know, they've met someone, they've agreed to get married. How can they apply this idea of a don't-know mind to their wedding? Because I guess the prevailing cultural view here at least would be, "This is amazing. This is gonna be the best day of my life. I've met the love of my life." So yeah, just help us understand how you can apply that type of mindset to an exciting event.

Haemin Sunim 47:30 Well, um, when you are planning for your own wedding, uh, I'm sure you have some idea, you know, how it should go, you know? Um, however, if you can just apply don't-know mind, you know, even if some things are not going like the way imagined, maybe the cake wasn't exactly the way [laughs] you wanted or the, you know, the way people, uh, interact, you know, or the speech that other, you know, your relatives or your best friends were making, you know, didn't quite, you know, [laughs] gel well. But you still remain this, you know, idea of don't-know mind, and in this mind of not knowing, you can relax, [laughs] you know? Rather than tightly trying to control everything-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:15 Yeah

Haemin Sunim 48:15 ... and then everything have to go like the way I want it, uh, and you know, screaming like a little kid if it doesn't. [laughs] That's not gonna make you happy. You know, I think the, um, there is openness and, and, and a new possibility, uh, when I have, you know, don't-know mind.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:33 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 48:33 And we can also relax.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:36 Yeah. That wedding example is actually so good because I know many people who have got mega stressed about their weddings, and I understand it. I, I kind of am not judging it. I, I, I'm just observing it. And sometimes we'll, we'll literally get stressed over the tablecloth isn't the right color, right?

Haemin Sunim 48:59 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:59 The, the napkins are not exactly how I'd imagined them. And if we go back to what we were talking about before, which is about who are we, you know, it's that space where thought ends. It's about the non-identification with things, right? Not being so attached to things. You kind of really see it in that moment, don't you, whereby people grow up with an idea that my wedding day has to be this way. I don't know if it's the same in Korea or not, but here in the UK, I think many people grow up with the idea that this is how my wedding's gonna be, this is what it's gonna look like, this is the dress, this is how we're gonna arrive. And hey, listen, we've all got desires and things that we would like to happen in certain ways. I guess you're saying the problem is if you are dependent on that, if your happiness is conditional on those things happening, you put yourself in a very, very weak position, don't you?

Haemin Sunim 50:02 Yes. [laughs] Rather than trying to control everything, can you relax and actually enjoy? You know, things may go n- not exactly you had planned, but it doesn't mean that, uh, that experience is not going to be, uh, unhappy. You know, it can be just as wonderful, you know? Unexpected, but still very wonderful. When we love something, you know, or someone, you know, we do bring this don't know mind. That is, uh, we don't know, uh, if this person, uh, likes, uh, this type of food or that kind of color, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:38 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 50:38 What kind of music this person likes. When you are first dating, then this, there is moment of, um, you know, like wanting to know more, you know? Because you are bringing this, "I don't know yet," you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:52 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 50:52 There is a genuine, uh, sense of curiosity.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:55 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 50:56 Yeah? But after, you know, being together for a couple of years or, you know, 10 years, you know, if you stop having, uh, don't know mind, that is I know everything there is to know about this person, [laughs] you know, I know everything th- there is to know about my own child, you know? Then what you do is instead of listening, you would just end up, you know, prescribing. "You are supposed to do this. You are supposed to do that," you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:23 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 51:23 You are just keep on nagging them as opposed to really trying to understand what's happening to them. So I think, you know, another, uh, word for, um, love is don't know mind.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:38 Yeah. That may well be the number one problem with most relationships, that we stop being curious.

Haemin Sunim 51:49 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:50 We change our mindset from when we were dating, when, as you say, we were looking to discover, to learn, to find out. But over time, I don't know if you'd call it laziness, but this kind of inertia can almost slip in where we make assumptions about our partner. We think that they're doing things because that's the way they've always done things, and we expect them to behave in a certain way. I have this little exercise, um, that I often do with my wife called Starting With Zero.

Haemin Sunim 52:23 Oh, wow. What is that?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:25 And, and the, and the idea is basically... Well, the, the big idea is that our past often haunts our present-day relationships.

Haemin Sunim 52:34 Mm. Absolutely.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:36 And so I, I, I think I came up with it maybe a year ago. Just this idea, oh, what, what would happen if I interacted with Vid now, Vid's my wife, as if this was the first time I'd ever met her? Even though, you know, I've been married for over 15 years, right? What happens if I interact with her in the morning, she comes down into the kitchen, I've been up for a bit, as if it was the first time? And I tell you, you know, I, I should honestly do it more, because when I do it, the knock-on effect is just profound. You're not making assumptions or judgments. You're literally taking someone for who they are in that moment, and you start to learn new things that you don't learn when you think you know it all already.

Haemin Sunim 53:21 That is so true. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:23 So many patients tell me that life just feels like a blur because of the pressures that so many of us face. The busyness, the overwhelm, the endless to-do list. I've heard it time and time again. Why haven't things changed? Why can't I bring these healthy habits into my life and make them stick? I've been a medical doctor for over two decades, and I have to say one of the most transformative practices I have ever seen is the practice of journaling, because it breaks the loop. We have these unconscious patterns, these subconscious patterns running our lives. We don't realize how many anxieties and worries and concerns we have whirring around, and journaling is a very simple way to get the stuff out of your brain. You get it down onto paper, and you see it, and that does something really, really powerful. When does the new diet that you were following fall by the wayside? When does the new healthy habit that you were sticking to start to fall off track? That's the self-awareness that journaling is gonna give you. When people ask the right questions, they get the right answers, and those right answers allow them to change their life. Take up journaling today and watch your life start to change.

Haemin Sunim 54:41 I hope people can apply that exercise, you know, to their relationships. Um, whenever we think we know about something, it's all in the past, you know? We are not actually knowing anything in the present moment. You know? Anything that you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:00 Mm-hmm

Haemin Sunim 55:01 ... is something that already happened. [laughs] The present moment, you cannot think about present moment, right? If you think about something, it is something that already happened, you know? [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:15 Of course.

Haemin Sunim 55:16 So, uh, this is the, you know, opening into your, um, this, you know, wonder, you know? This if you want to have a wonder in your life rather than assuming that you already know, you know, bring this mindsets of, "I don't know yet," you know? "Let me just appreciate what's in front of me right now."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:36 I love that. That totally landed for me. Once you start thinking about it, it's already happened.

Haemin Sunim 55:43 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:44 You're not in the present moment anymore. That is so powerful.

Haemin Sunim 55:48 You cannot think about the present moment. [laughs] It's simply impossible.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:52 Yeah. Okay, in terms of, um, practical guidance for people so far, we've mentioned the body scan, we've mentioned gratitudes. You know, I shared the starting with zero exercise that, you know, you seem to really like, so hopefully people give that a go.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:13 You also write in the book about three tips for a better life. The first one of those tips is, don't ask what others have said about you. Great tip. Can you explain why you recommend that?

Haemin Sunim 56:29 Um, [laughs] um, when we are young, you know, we tend to think about, uh, we are so concerned about how other peoples are saying things about me, you know? But as we get older and older, and we become wiser, that is, um, they don't really, you know, think about me that much, you know? Because I don't think about them, you know, that often. Even if I do-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:59 Mm

Haemin Sunim 56:59 ... it's not for a long period of time. Uh, we just tend to just assume that everybody is looking at me and judging me, and think about how, you know, my clothing is not good or the way I talk is not good or whatever. But that's not true, you know? Essentially, you know, we really do not know about other people other than our own experience. So what happen is that when we try to understand other people, we bring our own experience onto that. So-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:37 Mm-hmm

Haemin Sunim 57:37 ... when peoples are talking about, you know, me, they are essentially talking about themselves. [laughs] Because that particular part, you know, what they have witnessed, it resonate with them-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:51 Mm

Haemin Sunim 57:51 ... you know, their own experience. And thereby, they want to talk about that particular aspect of you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:57 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 57:58 Uh, so although it sounds as though they are talking about them, you know, it often, if you actually listen, they are talking about themselves. So I, rather than, you know, caring so much about what other peoples are saying about you, just get in touch with your own intention. You know, first in Buddhism we call, uh, [laughs] um, the beginner's mind.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:25 Mm-hmm.

Haemin Sunim 58:25 You know? Remember why you got into this, you know, professions, you know, why you are doing things, um, you know, in the first place.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:35 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 58:35 Because as you are, uh, working, I'm sure there will be al- a lot of criticism. A lot of people will say, uh, this is not right and that is not right. But insofar as, you know, helping others, you know, serving other people-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:49 Mm

Haemin Sunim 58:49 ... I'm sure that's where the, uh, meaning of our lives arise. So if you can just get in touch with that-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:57 Mm

Haemin Sunim 58:57 ... I am doing things to help other people, and certainly there will be other peoples, uh, may, um, you know, misconstrue.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:07 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 59:08 Yeah. Uh, however, um, you know, insofar as your intention is still pure, then I think you can just, you know, continue to do your work.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:19 Yeah. What, what I really like about that tip, because it really, really resonated, and I think the reason is in the past I very much would have wanted to know what other people were saying about me. If I heard something at work or something, I'd want... "Well, who said what?" You know, "Who said that? Did, did they understand this?" And until I read that yesterday in your book, I hadn't realized how much that had changed for me when... It, it's this idea, isn't it, that what other people think of you is none of your business. They're entitled to think whatever they want to.

Haemin Sunim 59:50 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:50 And I think the key for that is not don't care about what others have said about you. You say, "Don't even ask," right? I love that. Don't even ask. You don't even need to know. Why do you need to know? I reckon there's so many people who'll be listening to that will go, "God, I always wanna know what people are saying, who said what." But how does that even help you? It just gets you dragged down into this negative mindset. You've just gotta act as much as you can in accordance with your values, and if you do that, how other people interpret it is kind of up to them, isn't it?

Haemin Sunim 1:00:26 Right. And we have no control over how other people, you know, think of us, you know, what they are saying about us. We have no control.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:35 Well, that speaks to the third one there. Three tips for a better life. I've just mentioned the first one. The third one in those three is let go of things outside your control.

Haemin Sunim 1:00:43 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:44 Why, why is that so important for people?

Haemin Sunim 1:00:46 I think we assume that somehow we can control other people's, you know, how they think. Um, especially, you know, how they think about ourselves. Uh, but we cannot. Uh, simply, uh, recognizing the impossibility of controlling other peoples, uh, that frees us [laughs] from all the psychological, you know, stress and struggle that we are feeling.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:15 In, in English we have a term, uh, called people pleasing.

Haemin Sunim 1:01:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:20 And I think that very much speaks to, to this idea. You know, we-- I think the underlying energy behind people pleasing is often I'm trying to control what other people think of me. I'm trying to behave in certain ways so that people like me. They, um, they accept me. A- and, you know, we have a desire as humans for that connection. We want other people to, to like us. But I guess people pleasers or excessive people pleasers, actually it is a form of control. You're trying to control what other people think of you, and it comes at huge cost-

Haemin Sunim 1:02:00 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:00 ... because you're no longer being yourself in order to be liked by others.

Haemin Sunim 1:02:05 Right. And you are neglecting your own needs, your own, you know, desire at the same time. So, um, I would say that, uh, rather than trying to, um, you know, earn other people's, um, you know, positive opinions of you, uh, you know, see if you can first become a valid- validator, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:27 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:02:27 Um, we look for outside, you know, validations and however, uh, if you can just be your own validator, that is to, you know, write it down, all the wonderful things that you have done, you know, for the last, I don't know, like, you know, several years, then, uh, actually celebrate your own achievement.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:48 So that sounds like another practical tip for people, right? 'Cause we are living in a time when many people are struggling with happiness, they're struggling with their moods, they're struggling with the state of the world. As you say, things outside their control a lot of the time. And we've mentioned quite a few practical things that people can do, but this one sounds like a new one. It's, it's kind of like gratitude, but it's gratitude for yourself.

Haemin Sunim 1:03:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:14 Is that a fair way to describe it?

Haemin Sunim 1:03:15 Yes. And celebrate your own achievement. We tend to just downgrade, [laughs] you know, what we have done-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:22 Mm

Haemin Sunim 1:03:22 ... and, you know, imagining that, oh, this was nothing. You know? Like, of being just humble or just we took it for granted. However, if we can say, "Hey, you know, let's imagine myself, you know, five years ago or 10 years ago." You know, if I, you know, had known that I would have achieved this amount of, you know, things for the next 10 years, then I'm sure my younger self wouldn't, wouldn't have believed, you know, what I said.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:51 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:03:52 Um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:52 So that could be something we text ourselves each day as well, couldn't it? We could send ourselves a message so when we're feeling down or we feel that we're worthless and we've got nothing to contribute, actually you can look at that list and go, "Oh, you know, um, I made sure my friend was okay when he was struggling. I went round and brought my neighbor some shopping when they broke their leg and they couldn't get out." Um, you know, and whatever it might be, you're just, you're just making-- you're putting those deposits in the bank of saying, "No, I am someone who's worthy. I am someone who actually is contributing to this world." I've seen so many patients over the years who really, really struggle with their mood, with things like depression and anxiety, and a lot of the time they become really me-focused. They're stuck in their own heads.

Haemin Sunim 1:04:43 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:43 Yeah?

Haemin Sunim 1:04:44 Yes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:44 Can you maybe speak to that?

Haemin Sunim 1:04:45 Yes. You know, when we think less about ourselves, [laughs] that's when we've become, uh, happier.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:53 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:04:53 You know? Uh, that's another important, you know, lessons, I think. Um, uh, you know, if we are, um, trying very hard to make ourself happy, then there is no guarantee that we'll be happy. However, if you are making other people happy, then there is, you know, you, you'll be sure to be happier.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:18 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:05:18 That-- This is like, you know, beautiful in a Buddhist teaching, uh, by Shantideva, and I think we should, you know, remember that just by ma- trying to make myself happy, we think this is going to bring me happiness. Yes, it is important to do self-care-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:35 Mm

Haemin Sunim 1:05:35 ... but at the same time, we also have to, you know, remember we live in this interconnected, uh, web of reality. So when my, you know, child or my mother, you know, my wife is happy, then, uh, of course it's gonna influence my own happiness. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:56 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:05:56 And if we are, uh, like, like for example, you know, I do, um, volunteer work, you know, for the, uh, you know, homeless people-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:05 Mm

Haemin Sunim 1:06:05 ... in Korea. You know, when I do that, uh, there is a feeling of, you know, meaning in my life-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:11 Yeah

Haemin Sunim 1:06:11 ... you know, when I do that. You know, I've-- generally becomes m- a lot happier after two, three hours of, you know, volunteer work. So connection is another key, you know, ingredient for happiness. When we feel connected to nature, when we feel connected to another human being-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:30 Yeah

Haemin Sunim 1:06:30 ... that's when we feel happy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:31 Yeah. I know for me, sometimes if I'm not having the best day and I go to the local supermarket, I can feel amazing afterwards. I'm a very chatty person.

Haemin Sunim 1:06:45 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:45 So if I'm at the supermarket, I'll be chatting to the people who work there and the cashier and things, and it's amazing. Just five minutes of interaction with people who you don't know well, right? They're not like your close friends or your family, but you might see them from time to time. On the way walking home or on the way up to my car in the car park, I feel like I've had this real boost of feel-good and, and that's how simple it- Improving our mental wellbeing can be from time to time, can't it? You can't do it if you're stuck at home in your own head just scrolling the lives of other people on social media. You have to get in the real world and interact with someone else, no matter how small. It is incredible what kind of impact that has on our, you know, on the way that we feel, isn't it?

Haemin Sunim 1:07:37 Yes. It will get you out of your own, you know, self-obsessive, you know, thinking mind.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:43 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:07:43 As we move away from me, me, me, me [laughs] and then actually pay attention to people around us-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:49 Yeah

Haemin Sunim 1:07:49 ... and making those micro connections-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:52 Yeah

Haemin Sunim 1:07:52 ... here and there, uh, this will just remind us how connected we are to the world.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:58 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:07:58 And when we feel the connection, we become happier.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:03 You mentioned, I think, a really key point, which is we're looking for that sweet spot. We're not looking to neglect our own needs and do everything for everyone else at the expense of ourself, nor are we trying to go to the other extreme where everything is me focused. I don't care about anyone else, as long as I'm meditating and I'm walking and I am doing what I need to do for me. And I think that is a, a sweet spot that many people struggle to find. Do you have any tips on how they can get the right balance between self-care and doing things for others?

Haemin Sunim 1:08:39 Um, again, you know, I will check with my body. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:42 Okay.

Haemin Sunim 1:08:43 Yeah. When I feel extremely tired, you know, helping other people, then it is time for me to take good care of my s- you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:49 Mm-hmm

Haemin Sunim 1:08:49 ... body, myself. So, uh, it's important to, uh, just turning in and, and, you know, feel how your body is feeling at that moment.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:02 Yeah. That speaks to me about the importance of solitude, and solitude is something I talk a lot about and I write a lot about because I feel very strongly that in this modern 21st century world where many stroke most people feel chronically stressed and overloaded, and they don't feel they have time to do all the things that they want to do for themselves. I feel that a daily practice of solitude is probably the most valuable thing they can invest in because it's, it's that time by yourself, whether it's to do a body scan or to write down three things you're grateful for. Whatever it might be, it's time where you can actually nourish yourself and actually reflect on your life and know if you have to make changes or not. To make sure you're taking action after watching this video, I've created a free guide to help you build healthy habits. We can all make short-term change, but can those changes become a fundamental part of our life? Often they don't, and that's why in this free guide, I share with you the six crucial steps you need to take. They're really, really effective. If you wanna get hold of that free guide right now, all you have to do is click the link in the description box below.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:23 Now, you write about solitude in this new book, and you specifically say this, "One who knows how to enjoy time by themselves without depending on others is a free person. Having a lot of time does not in and of itself make a person free." So can you speak to that? Can you speak to the importance of solitude and why so many people struggle to be okay just with themselves, and why it's so important that we cultivate that skill?

Haemin Sunim 1:10:57 I often go out to my local park, and without bringing my cell phone.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:04 Yeah. Me too.

Haemin Sunim 1:11:04 You know? It's just [laughs] yeah. Giving myself maybe 30 minutes or, you know, one hour just alone, you know, without being constantly connected to, uh, you know, other people.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:15 Mm-hmm.

Haemin Sunim 1:11:16 This gives us a sense of, you know, peace and also, you know, connection to nature. And as we are feeling, you know, nature and also, you know, how my body's feeling, and then witnessing beauty of nature, the sound of birds, you know, the trees and flowers and all of that, it kind of restore o- our sense of balance. You know? It restore, um, what it means to be me. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:46 I- is that the nature doing it, or is it the time alone, or is it both?

Haemin Sunim 1:11:51 I think it's both. You know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:52 Mm-hmm.

Haemin Sunim 1:11:52 They have, uh, such a powerful, uh, restorative, you know, uh, power, uh, just being alone, but at the same time out in nature. Oftentime we think about something, and this stress us out, however if we are outside, [laughs] it feels like, um, you know, the, like, the, your thought is still there, but it's, like, you know, little.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:16 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:12:16 You feel like, uh, in this great context of amazing nature. It's just a little thing. As opposed to if you're sitting in front of your desk, in front of your computer, and just ruminating about [laughs] this, you know, you know, stressful event that you have to think about, then it feels like that is a huge, you know, something that you cannot overcome. So I think it's very important that we can just spend some time alone in nature.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:44 Mm-hmm. You've been a practicing Buddhist monk for, for over two decades, I think 25 years. Are there some common practices that you recommend time and time again to people? Like practices that have stood the test of time and always make a difference, no matter whether someone lives in Korea, the UK, or America? And if so, what are they?

Haemin Sunim 1:13:10 In my new book, I talk about the importance of having your own sacred space.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:15 Mm-hmm.

Haemin Sunim 1:13:16 You know? Um, you might be living in a huge city- Like in London or Manchester or New York or-- But if you can find little corner, li- little nook, [laughs] you know, of your, I don't know, favorite re- um, bookshop or a coffee shop or under the, the tree, your favorite tree in a, in a public park or a church or a mosque or in a temple, um, somewhere you feel, like, relaxed and can enjoy the moment, or in front of your favorite painting-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:54 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:13:54 -in your local museum. Uh, if you can just find those spots and go there again and again, and that place becomes your sacred space. So although, uh, the city that you live, you f- you may feel this is kind of impersonal-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:13 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:14:13 -and overwhelming, but by having those, you know, sacred space, you know, personalize your, uh, daily experience, and you actually enjoy, um, being alone in that space.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:27 Is it important that that space is outside the place where you live? Or could it be a particular room in your house or your apartment? You know, 'cause just trying to broaden it out if someone feels like they can't get out, can you, can you also get that relaxation and restoration in your, in y- in your place of residence?

Haemin Sunim 1:14:49 Um, I think it's possible. You know, you just create in a special corner. Uh, if you are a meditator, for example, you can just make it one corner in your room, and this is where I'm going to sit and meditate. Um, but at the same time, I think it's, you know, nice to have somewhere, not exactly your workspace-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:12 Mm-hmm

Haemin Sunim 1:15:12 ... but also not exactly your, you know, home, somewhere in between, and where you can go and just be yourself-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:21 Yeah

Haemin Sunim 1:15:21 ... and just relax. Um, this can be, uh, you know, another, uh, thing we can all do.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:27 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:29 You mentioned earlier that we're all interconnected, and that seems to be a theme that often comes up in Buddhist philosophy, the interconnected nature of all of us a- and life. What does that actually mean, though, when you say that everything's connected?

Haemin Sunim 1:15:50 Um, one of the reasons why we are unhappy is because we feel sometime we are isolated, and we are not connected to other people, and nobody seems to really care about me, and therefore, you know, you know, what's the value of myself, you know? And but if you actually see yourself, the world and what we call I, you know, appear always at the same time. I have never existed independently apart from the world. Even right now, you know, like, you know, what I call Haemin, maybe people will i- imagine, you know, along the skin line, he exists. But this other space around me or you, or, you know, this amazing studio, you know, it all appear at the same time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:50 Mm-hmm.

Haemin Sunim 1:16:51 So inherently, we are already connected, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:16:55 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:16:55 Uh, however, when we just, uh, end up thinking about stuff all the time and conceptualize everything and see the whole world, you know, you know, through the eyes of a thinking mind, then it feel as though the whole world is separated.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:14 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:17:15 You know, I can somehow exist apart from the rest of the world. Um, but that is not the case. Uh, we pay so much, you know, attentions to the language, you know, and once we have tho- those words, uh, like for example, you know, the cup here-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:36 Mm

Haemin Sunim 1:17:36 ... um, then it seems as though the cup exists inherently, independently-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:43 Mm

Haemin Sunim 1:17:44 ... you know, apart from the rest of the world. But we have to remind ourself, the language cup, the word, it is something that we gave artificially, [laughs] you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:54 We made it up.

Haemin Sunim 1:17:55 Yeah. It didn't exist, you know? However, since the language is being so powerful and see things, you know, you know, through the lens of s- language, we just separate, you know, by assigning words, you know, different, you know, nouns to different things, and imagine those nouns actually exist by themselves.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:17 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:18:18 But that's not true.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:19 Yeah. I love that. Reminds me of what I used to do with my kids when they were a bit younger. If we were by the water, like the ocean, I'd say, "What color is it?" And often they say, "Blue." I say, "Well, is the ocean blue?" And it initially it'd be like, "Yeah. It's blue." I said, "Well, hold on a minute. Is, is it the ocean that's blue?" And essentially we got together to the point that no, there is water there, and we are seeing it as blue right now. But another animal, like a fish, for example, might see it completely differently, so it's not inherently blue. You know, and you could even go, "I'm labeling it an ocean." It's not even an ocean. I'm labeling it water. You know? You could even go all the way with that, can't you?

Haemin Sunim 1:19:08 Right. There is a sunlight. You know, un- unless there is a sunlight, you know, we will not be able to see the color of blue, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:16 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:19:16 So, um, also, you know, the fact that, um- Uh, there's no clouds [laughs] maybe. Uh, like there are a lot of, you know, elements that gives rise to the experience of blue oceans. It's not one ocean-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:33 Yeah

Haemin Sunim 1:19:34 ... is, you know, in and of himself. Uh, in other words, we are interconnected, and when we have this experience of this truth of interconnectedness, that's when we feel happy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:49 If someone's listening and they go, "I don't buy that."

Haemin Sunim 1:19:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:53 "Okay, things are not interconnected. I am just me. Someone else is someone else. That is a cup," right? If they're not following that or they don't agree, what is the consequence of living a life where you do not believe that everything is connected?

Haemin Sunim 1:20:14 Then you might live very lonely life or a fearful life. I think, you know, we can have, uh, two different kind of worldview, yeah? The first worldview is that the world outside is actually, um, uncaring and cold. You know, it's my own, uh, hard effort, uh, that only going to bring me success. You know, nobody's going to care about me, and nobody's gonna help me, and thereby I just have to work really diligently, and I can become successful. I can-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:54 Mm

Haemin Sunim 1:20:54 ... take good care of my family, you know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:57 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:20:57 Um, that's one view, and another view is believing that the universe outside is caring, benevolent. And, and, uh, if you pray, for example, you know, for something, then the universe will try hard to deliver what you asked.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:16 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:21:16 You know? This is another, um, you know, worldview. There are two kinds of worldview, and you can decide, you know, what kind of universe you want to live in.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:26 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:21:27 If you decide that world is uncaring and I live, you know, um, independently and isolated, and nobody's going to help me, yeah, then oftentimes you will experience that [laughs] because whatever you project out onto the universe, that's what you're going to receive. And whereas the other one, who believes the interconnectedness and other people will come to help me as I'm helping other people-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:55 Mm

Haemin Sunim 1:21:55 ... uh, then they will experience, you know, a lot of gratitude-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:21:59 Yeah

Haemin Sunim 1:21:59 ... a lot of connections. And this is also choice, you know. If you can [laughs] have the faith in the universe that, you know, I don't have a job now, but I'm sure, uh, uh, as I'm, um, putting a lot of effort right now, uh, the universe-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:16 Mm

Haemin Sunim 1:22:16 ... will deliver, you know, the job that I, you know, am seeking.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:20 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:22:20 Or, you know, maybe, uh, my friends became very successful, uh, but instead of feeling jealous, you know, I have trust in the universe that I will cr- have my own version of success. My success-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:35 Mm

Haemin Sunim 1:22:35 ... will be quite different from my friends. Thereby, I don't need to feel jealous.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:22:41 Did you find when you went to America that potentially some aspects of the American dream fall into that first worldview, whereby it's all on me, I don't need anyone else? You know, I get, I get that, you know, most things have upsides and downsides, so one of the upsides of the American dream, as I understand it, is that anyone can achieve anything, right? If you put the work in, you, your diligence, you practice, you can get to where you need to get to. But that can go-- That can be taken to an extreme, where we don't care about anyone. All we think about is ourself. We've become very individualistic, and I definitely think that cultures like America and the UK, and many other countries, have become much more individualistic and are adopting that worldview, which I think is problematic. So I'm interested, I guess, number one, did you see that worldview when you went to America? Is it also the worldview that's in Korea, or is Korea a little bit different? But also, do you think this is one of the reasons why burnout is on the rise? Because it is. So many people feel chronically overloaded and burnt out, and I wonder if burnout is a natural consequence of having that first worldview rather than that second one.

Haemin Sunim 1:24:08 Yeah. I think, you know, if you are heavily, um, believe in self-reliance-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:16 Mm

Haemin Sunim 1:24:16 ... thinking that I have to take care of myself, and I should not, you know, bother other people-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:22 Mm

Haemin Sunim 1:24:23 ... then even if you are having a hard time at work, you don't know how to ask, you know.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:29 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:24:29 "Could you please help me, you know, with this?" You know? Or y- you don't know how to ask your, even your own your children.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:36 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:24:36 You know, "Can you come and, you know, help me buy, you know, grocery or something?" You know? So overly, uh, like self-reliance tendency, uh, can create, um, uh, burnout, I do believe.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:51 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:24:51 Yeah. Um, but I think it takes a little bit of, you know, you know, vulnerability maybe, you know, to ask, "I need some help." [laughs] You know, "I am in trouble," you know. "Could you please some help?" And, you know, more often, peoples are willing to help you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:10 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:25:10 You know? Just that- You didn't ask. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:13 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:25:13 You know, you'll find that peoples are actually, you know, care about you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:17 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:25:18 You know? Uh, just overly, you know, self-reliance, this idea that I have to take good care of myself-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:24 Mm

Haemin Sunim 1:25:24 ... without relying on other people, I think there's some merit to that, you know? But in reality, we are interdependent-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:32 Mm

Haemin Sunim 1:25:32 ... you know, beings. We need each others. So, um, when we can ask other people's help, uh, sure enough we will also have opportunity to help them.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:43 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:25:44 So, um, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:47 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:49 One of the other lines that resonated with me in your new book was this one, "If you can control your ambition, you won't overextend yourself. If you do not overextend, you will not harm your health. If your health is good, your mind becomes balanced easily. If your mind is balanced, you will find happiness in little things." It's this beautiful loop where everything feeds each other. But that first bit I think is key. If you can control your ambition, you won't overextend yourself. We've just been talking about burnout, and often burnout comes as a consequence of unchecked ambition. How do you control your ambition?

Haemin Sunim 1:26:38 People tend to have this imaginations that once I achieve such and such, [laughs] then my, you know, life will have worth, you know? I'll be worthy, you know? Um, but investigate where that feeling of lack, you know, feeling of in- insufficiency is coming from. Uh, you imagine that it is the outside achievements is going to make you feel that you are finally worthy. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:11 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:27:11 But maybe it is, you know, unloved [laughs] and uncared, um, past experience, you know, while growing up. Uh, maybe that is, y- like, you know, a little child within you, it is still asking you to pay attention to me more, you know? So rather than zeroing on it's just outside goals to make you feel like finally maybe I am somebody, you know, uh, you can just go directly to the source, you know? What is the very force that keeps on, uh, making me, uh, work, I don't know, like, you know, 80 hours or 100 hours a week, [laughs] you know, uh, while s- not spending any time at all with my family, you know, or close friends, you know? So I think it's important to check your own ambitions and see people around you, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:09 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:28:10 And if you are maintaining, you know, harmonious relationship with them.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:14 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:28:15 Because at the end, you want to be happy together, [laughs] you know? You don't want to be just happy by yourself [laughs] and while other people's feeling miserable. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:25 Yeah, yeah. When I was researching your own story, one of the things that resonated with me the most was something that I also discovered early on in my career as a doctor, which was the power of listening. And you tell a story, or I've heard you tell the story that when you were a monk, suddenly people would come up to you and ask you all kinds of things afterwards that you didn't feel equipped to answer, but you learnt a powerful lesson, didn't you?

Haemin Sunim 1:29:02 Yes. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:03 Could, could you share that? I think it's, I think it's, I think it's so powerful, and I think it's so applicable to all of us.

Haemin Sunim 1:29:13 I think most people, they just want to be heard, and they want somebody to there to witness, you know, what's happening in their lives. And especially if the person is listening with sense of empathy, then you will feel a lot better afterwards. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:29:32 Mm.

Haemin Sunim 1:29:32 You know? You f- you realize that you are not alone, you know, going through this very challenging, you know, uh, experience in your life. Um, and also people already know the answer to their problem. [laughs] It's just that in their head it's disorganized, and you are not actually asking the right questions, and therefore you think you don't know the answers. But as you are listening to what they have to say, as you are untangle your what's happened, [laughs] and you're beginning to really see, uh, the answer that you've been seeking was-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:09 Mm

Haemin Sunim 1:30:09 ... right in front of you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:11 Yeah. I think that's one of the most powerful realizations I've had in my own career. And I mean, I won't tell the story again 'cause I've told it before on this podcast, but in my very first week as a GP, I learnt that lesson when I didn't really know exactly what to do with a patient, so I just listened attentively, and would see the patient back every week. And she got better.

Haemin Sunim 1:30:40 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:41 Because as you said, she knew the answers, but what she didn't have in her life was someone who she could talk to and open up to, and they weren't gonna judge her.

Haemin Sunim 1:30:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:56 And I think you said also, you've wr- you've mentioned it, you wrote about it in the book, how sometimes that's the role a therapist will play.

Haemin Sunim 1:31:03 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:04 Where people can actually speak, get in touch with their emotions, express them without fear of judgment or being cut off, and you often find those answers yourself. I think it also speaks to this idea that one of the central ideas- In your work in Buddhist philosophy that all the answers are within. The happiness is already there. We're not looking for it outside. We just need to get out of its way

Haemin Sunim 1:31:31 And relax into it

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:32 And relax into it

Haemin Sunim 1:31:34 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:35 But of course, that's difficult for people when they're feeling rushed all the time and stressed all the time, and you know, you literally see the world differently when you're rushing. You covered that in one of your previous books, didn't you?

Haemin Sunim 1:31:44 Right. You know, um, people love the title, you know, uh, Things You Can See Only When You Slow Down, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:51 Yeah. Great title.

Haemin Sunim 1:31:52 Yeah. [laughs] Um, I think we need to just take a g- you know, periodically pause and see if you can, um, slow down. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:05 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:32:06 And when we are, uh, slowing down, then we can actually, uh, see and appreciate our life that is quickly passing in front of us.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:19 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:32:19 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:20 That's what I think a lot of these practices do, a gratitude practice or a body scan or just taking 10, 15 seconds to smell that fresh tea or that fresh coffee and let the aroma go into you and surround you. I think one of the things it does, if you're leading a busy life, is number one, it forces you to slow down, but number two, it reminds you what the feeling of slow feels like.

Haemin Sunim 1:32:50 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:52 And then once you tune into that and go, "Oh. Oh, it's nice not to rush this coffee and just sit there," that feeling, when you do it regularly, starts to follow you around in other parts of your day. That's certainly what I've found in my own life, and I'm now at the point where, let's say on a Sunday, I'll sometimes intentionally in the morning go, "Okay, today is gonna be a slow day." Right? Today's a slow day. Everything is gonna be done with the energy of slowness, including when you're driving somewhere. Like, not rushing, just taking your time in the car. And what I like about it, the more I've done it, the more I have learnt when I have a tendency to rush.

Haemin Sunim 1:33:33 Hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:34 So you start to develop that inner awareness of, oh, I'm rushing here. Oh, I wanted this to be a slow day, but I did rush then, or I left a bit late to get my daughter to her netball game or whatever, right? And again, it's all about awareness 'cause the more you do it, the more you realize, actually, most of the time, I really don't need to rush. I, I just don't. So that slowness, I think it almost becomes addictive because it feels so good.

Haemin Sunim 1:34:01 Yeah. And, and you can, you know... You, you've, you can enjoy the process. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:09 Mm-hmm.

Haemin Sunim 1:34:09 As we are doing things slowly, uh, you can enjoy the driving, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:14 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:34:15 You can enjoy, you know, having conversation with your daughter. You know, you can enjoy arriving at that place and maybe, you know, saying hi to other parents.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:23 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:34:24 Yeah?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:24 I remember, I think, I'm sure many people do. God, when I was like 18, 19, 20, 21, I was always in a rush when driving to get somewhere. I was always rushing around, and it's... You know, I can only, I can only see it now with such clarity because I don't so much anymore.

Haemin Sunim 1:34:40 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:34:40 And life becomes much more enjoyable when you don't rush all the time. But again, I wanna make it practical. So for that person who feels stressed out and rushing, even these little pockets or a five-minute body scan in the morning.

Haemin Sunim 1:34:53 Also, you know, um, instead of, uh, checking in, uh, looking at your smartphone, uh, see if you can leave your home five minutes earlier. [laughs] That is, when you have to go to work, and having that extra five minutes can have a huge impact. You know, the maybe commuting time can be, uh, one hour or m- maybe 45 minutes. Having extra five minutes, you can feel as though you can slow down.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:24 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:35:25 You can actually relax. You don't have to rush so much.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:28 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:35:29 Uh, so rather than spending, you know, mindlessly, uh, looking at your email in the morning or checking news-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:37 Mm-hmm

Haemin Sunim 1:35:37 ... see if you can leave a little bit earlier and give yourself, uh, breathing space.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:43 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:35:43 And that will allow you to, uh, slow down more.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:47 Yeah. Love that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:49 The final thing I wanted to bring up with you, Haemin, is I guess a central idea in the book, when things don't go your way. You mentioned before about these two different worldviews we can adopt and that it is a choice to decide which worldview you're going to adopt. I very much feel the idea when I think about the title, When Things Don't Go Your Way. You have a choice in life how you react to that. You could take what is often called the victim mindset-

Haemin Sunim 1:36:27 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:28 ... right? Which is, "I can't believe it happened that way. It always happens to me like that. I can't believe things don't go my way," et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Which I used to have, right? So this ain't no criticism on anyone.

Haemin Sunim 1:36:42 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:43 I used to have that, but I don't have it anymore. So you can change it, and you can choose a different mindset consciously initially, and then it becomes unconscious. Whereas the natural state then becomes, "What's the upside of the situation? What can I learn here?" And it's something I'm very much as a parent try and teach my kids when things aren't going their way. Have done for years. It's like, "Okay, well, what's the upside here? What can you learn from this situation?" I wish I'd learnt that as a kid. I didn't. I've learnt it as an adult. But would you agree with that, that central to this message is choice? Central to your message in this book is this idea that, listen- Things are always gonna happen that you don't predict, you don't plan, and perhaps you don't want. But it fundamentally comes down to your choice and how you interpret that, that will determine its outcome. Do you agree with that? Is there anything you wanna add to that? And is that fair to say?

Haemin Sunim 1:37:41 I think that's very fair to say. [laughs] Um, the life experience is kind of raw data. It doesn't tell you how to interpret it. It's our job to make that interpretations, and you can say that, "Oh, that experience was just horrible. I feel like, you know, I'm the victim of the situations." Then that's where you're going to, um, you know, end.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:09 Mm-hmm.

Haemin Sunim 1:38:09 That's what the experience is going to offer you. But on the other hand, you interpret that as, "Oh, that was my, uh, you know, opportunity to grow and to learn about, you know, deeper truth about myself, and also maybe next time when I have a, you know, similar opportunity, I will do it in a different way-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:28 Mm-hmm

Haemin Sunim 1:38:28 ... and so that I can, you know, uh, do better," you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:31 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:38:31 So, um, you-- it's your, you know, interpretation and your choice, uh, rather than feeling like, you know, uh, everything is right-- you know, controlling me, the environment is controlling me, peoples are controlling me, all this responsibility is making me feel very unhappy. Uh, make a choice, you know, in spite of all of this. You know, I will choose to [laughs] you know, connect with my own intentions, you know-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:01 Yeah

Haemin Sunim 1:39:01 ... the reason why I'm here on Earth. Uh, I want to serve other people, and when I feel connected, then I feel, you know, a sense of, uh, um, meanings.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:12 Mm-hmm.

Haemin Sunim 1:39:13 And I feel happy.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:14 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:39:14 Uh, so make that choice. Uh, you know, don't feel reactive, you know, you know, become proactive.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:21 Yeah. I love that. A situation where many people struggle that I think relates to this is forgiveness and letting go of perceived negative events in the past. I talk about forgiveness a lot because I, I generally do believe it is a skill that we can all cultivate and get better at. You also write about forgiveness in the latest book. What does the concept of forgiveness mean to you, and why do you think people struggle with it so much?

Haemin Sunim 1:39:57 When we understood the person or the situation, then we can forgive. We cannot forgive the person or the situation because we don't understand. So rather than, um, just jumping into conclusion, uh, that person was evil, that person was just horrible, you know, try to understand what kind of li-life experience that person had that led them to behave in such a way. Yeah? So-- And you might say, "Well, I don't want to even think about, [laughs] you know, what kind of life experience that person had." But if you actually can say, "Yes, I honor my own pain, my own suffering, and I do express, you know, all this feeling that I had," um, after experiencing that, if you can have a little space in your heart, try to understand, you know, tho-those people who gave you a really difficult time. I'm sure those people were not happy, at least at that moment-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:13 Mm-hmm

Haemin Sunim 1:41:13 ... or, you know, while they were growing up, they had, uh, you know, lots of, you know, uh, unmis-- you know, unfortunate events that happened in their lives, and thereby they inflict pain-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:27 Yeah

Haemin Sunim 1:41:27 ... onto other people. Uh, so once we begin to see how others are behaving because of their past painful experience-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:40 Mm-hmm

Haemin Sunim 1:41:40 ... then our heart becomes softer.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:43 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:41:43 You know? We don't say that all those things they've done-- they have done to me is okay. We're not saying that's okay.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:51 No.

Haemin Sunim 1:41:51 Yeah. However, uh, you will feel that your heart is softer-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:55 Yeah

Haemin Sunim 1:41:56 ... yeah, more willing to accept.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:41:58 Yeah.

Haemin Sunim 1:41:59 And as we understood the situation, then we can slowly release it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:05 Yeah. Thank you. You had the great fortune of spending some time with the great Thich Nhat Hanh. Could you share some of the key things you learned from him with us?

Haemin Sunim 1:42:19 Um, I loved his walking meditations, you know. Uh, he said, uh, "Walk as though your feet are, you know, kissing the earth." And to me, that, uh, teaching was such a powerful, you know, one and because we often just think about, "I get to-- I have to arrive at a certain place," and without paying attention to actual process of walking itself. And instead, can you just say, "I'm going to enjoy my walking." You know, "I'm going to kiss the earth as I am, you know, taking my step." I think that's a really wonderful way-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:59 Yeah

Haemin Sunim 1:42:59 ... to start our day.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:01 Very mindful, very present, very evocative thought, kissing the earth as you walk. Haemin, I'm a huge fan of your work. Uh, the last time we spoke was about five years ago. Uh, love the new book. I think there's so much wisdom in there for people that's really gonna help them. To finish off, a lot of people are struggling in the world at the moment for a variety of different reasons. If someone's listening to you now and they're going through hard times, things are not going the way that they want, what are your final words to them?

Haemin Sunim 1:43:40 Don't jump into quick conclusion that just because things are not going like the way you wanted, it is bad. [laughs] Have open mind, you know. You never know what kind of, uh, opportunities, different experience you might enjoy or you feel later super grate- grateful. A friend of mine, you know, he wrote a book, and while he was writing, you know, he was asking me, "Do you think this book will become a bestseller?" You know? Um, interestingly, you know, um, his book didn't do well in terms of, you know, sales of the book. However, uh, one of the readers of that book, uh, now became his wife. [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:33 Right.

Haemin Sunim 1:44:34 You know? [laughs] The, the reader, uh, actually, uh, send a quick message to him how much he, she appreciated, uh, his book, and they, they decide to have a coffee together, and one thing led to another. They met, and they start dating, and now they are married, and now they have a beautiful daughter.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:44:55 Wow.

Haemin Sunim 1:44:55 So you don't know how the life is going to be turned out, you know? You might imagine that, you know, uh, you know what kind of happiness you want to have, but in the end, you know, the, the universe may award you with different type of, you know, happiness-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:15 Yeah

Haemin Sunim 1:45:15 ... and still valid and still wonderful.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:18 Yeah, I love that. Thank you. What a wonderful story. You're doing fantastic work. I love the book. Thank you for making the journey to the studio. I appreciate it.

Haemin Sunim 1:45:27 Thank you so much. Thank you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:45:29 If you enjoyed that conversation, then I think you are really going to enjoy this one that I've picked out especially.

Haemin Sunim 1:45:35 I am happy because I have a job. I'm happy because, uh, I have a lot of money in my bank account. If my happiness has condition, it is not free