Why You FEEL LOST In Life & How To Find Your TRUE SELF Again! (I.F.S METHOD) | Richard Schwartz

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:00 Internal family systems has transformed my own life. I'm convinced that it can do the same for you. For me, it's helped reduce levels of stress, anxiety about what other people may think of me. It's quietened that inner voice inside my head. Dr. Gabor Maté is a big fan

Speaker 0:17 The internal family systems

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:19 Oh my God, that's what I'm doing at the moment. [laughs]

Speaker 0:21 IFS

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:21 Yeah. It's incredible

Speaker 0:22 ... Dick Schwartz's stuff

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:23 Tim Ferriss has said that IFS has been transformative for him

Speaker 0:27 IFS is an incredible system which has been very helpful to me personally, that will help you work with your inner critic-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 0:32 The very best way to understand it is to watch someone go through it, and that's exactly what you're about to see. I become the patient. The inventor of IFS takes me through a session. It has transformed my life, and I truly hope it changes yours. I'd love to start this conversation by saying thank you to you because internal family systems, the therapy that you have created, I think has probably had more impact on me than anything else I've done over the past five or 10 years in terms of my feeling of calmness, contentment, happiness, as well as my physical health. And so I really just wanna acknowledge you and say a huge thank you, and it's a real honor to have you on my show.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:20 Well, I'm very, very honored to be on your show, and particularly since, uh, IFS has had that impact. I, I'm, uh, I'm thrilled to hear that, and I know you are very influential, so it's, it's great, really great to be here.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38 What my goal is with this conversation is to understand IFS better and to really showcase, I hope, to all of the listeners and viewers just how relevant it is for what I think is each and every single one of us. So could you maybe explain, you know, IFS, internal family systems, what does that actually mean?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 2:09 So, you know, it's not the most illustrative name. The family part of it applies to having these parts, what I call parts inside our minds, and how they interact with, with each other, almost like a external family. And I'm trained, I have a PhD in family therapy. So when I came to the phenomena, and I was just taught this by the clients, I started to apply that family therapy lens to what I was learning from my clients. And turns out it, it applies really well. So the basic assumption is that everybody has these parts and that that's a good thing. That's the nature of the mind to be subdivided this way, to have these, what other systems call subpersonalities, that we're born with them. And all of them have valuable qualities and resources to help us in our life. But trauma and attachment injuries, which is basically bad parenting, force them out of their naturally valuable states into roles that can be destructive and, uh, fr- freeze them in time. Th- th- many of them are stuck back during the trauma and they think you're still five years old, for example. So just being able to see where they're stuck in the past and going and getting them out of there o- often allows them to transform into their naturally valuable states.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 3:43 Yeah. You know, I wanna get into the process a bit later, but the, this idea of parts, I think it's, it's really worth spending a bit of time here because, you know, in, in our sort of Western, um, societal model, I guess in the English language, we often refer to the mind in, in a kind of singular way, don't we? The, this, this is my mind.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 4:05 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:05 My mind is speaking.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 4:07 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 4:07 And you beautifully in your work, in all of these books, just show that actually there's a multiplicity to the mind. There are lots of different minds within us. And I think for some people that will be, I don't know, a bit, a bit scary, perhaps a bit disconcerting. I mean, how do you help people understand that?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 4:27 Yeah, well, as you're s- alluding to, it's been a uphill battle to try and bring this perspective because, culturally, we are oriented to think of ourselves as having one mind with different thoughts and emotions that emanate from it, but there's just really one of us. And the idea of having many minds with different voices or thought patterns, et cetera, that have autonomy is scary because that has been pathologized. And you think about, you know, movies in the past like Sybil or, uh, there's a whole series of movies about multiple personalities and how crazy they are. And so the idea that you might have these separate subpersonalities is, it- it's, it's a creepy idea for that reason at first for so- not everybody. And, and actually for whatever reason, it's become a lot less creepy over the last, like, couple decades, I'd say. But still, I get a lot of, uh, pushback, like, "Aren't you, are you creating, uh, multiple personality disorder?" Um, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 5:44 Yeah. Well, well even that last thing you said, are we creating, or sorry, are you creating multiple personality disorder? I think that really speaks to the kinda systems component of internal family systems that actually You're looking at these parts and how they relate to one another, rather than that part in isolation. And in your latest book, there's a really beautiful section in the beginning where you talk about systems thinking, and I, I'm very passionate about this because I, I feel as a medical doctor that we have gone down the route of separating the body into discrete parts that actually-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 6:28 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 6:28 ... don't speak to one another. And they're, you know, the, the heart problem goes to the cardiologist, the lung problem goes to the, the lung specialist, the, the stomach problem goes to the gastroenterologist. And, you know, I, I as a GP, a generalist, I, I can't... You know, I, I've got so many cases I can think of where the patient would be referred to one of them and say, "No, no, this is not your heart. Go back to your GP." You're referred to another specialist [laughs] and th- this whole cycle goes on. Everyone's telling you what it's not rather than what it is, and not sort of pulling it all together. And there was this bit of text in your last book which I, I really like where you mentioned, you say this. You mentioned that giving a troubled person a psychiatric diagnosis and seeing that as the sole or main cause of their symptoms was unnecessarily limiting, pathologizing and could become self-reinforcing. When you tell a person that they are sick and ignore the larger context in which their symptoms make sense, not only do you miss leverage points that could lead to transformation, but you also produce a passive patient who feels defective. Uh, and I thought that summed it up beautifully.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 7:39 Thank you. Yeah. Um, you know, family therapy's big insight was you can't take an acting out kid out of their family and just tell them to cut it out. You have to kind of see the context in which that acting out makes sense. And, and, uh, often there's various forms of dysfunction happening, and the, the kid is reacting to that, and either to protect himself or to protect other members of the family is in some kind of extreme role in the family. And so we learned as family therapists to reorganize the family and free up the kid to be who he's really designed to be. The same thing I found true for these parts, which is partly why I call it internal family systems, that these parts are forced into these roles and get stuck in the roles because of the dynamics of the inner family, and can be freed from those roles as you found. And when they are, they'll transform, just like a kid in a family, into their naturally valuable states. And you can apply that kind of systems thinking to all the things you just talked about. I just did a series of conversations with someone I know you've had on your show, Gabor Mate.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 9:03 Oh, yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 9:04 And, uh, we basically stumbled into the same, uh, kind of belief system about chronic medical illness that, uh, from very different perspectives, and our approaches are different, but we really found in terms of data, basically the same patterns. And diagnosing colitis or whatever the condition is, and then, as you say, shipping them to a specialist who medicates them without, you know, um, medicine and psychotherapy are both designed to kill the messenger rather than to listen to the message. And so both Gabor and I are trying to get people to actually listen, to find, in my language, the part that's trying to get your attention through the symptom or is trying to punish you in some way or is just really upset-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:02 Yeah

Dr. Richard Schwartz 10:02 ... inside.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:03 Yeah. I mean, like you, I'm a huge fan of, uh, Gabor's work as well. And, um, you know, the, the term part, I, I just tr- I'm trying to reflect on my own journey through this because I came from a place of not knowing much, but, but I felt the difference. Like, I felt after sessions, I felt lighter, uh, like physically lighter, mentally lighter, emotionally lighter, and I would find that I wasn't getting triggered often by the same things. And for me, what was really fascinating is that someone told me early on that this is one of the few forms of therapy that goes into the trauma and processes it there and then.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 10:49 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 10:50 I thought that, that really got my attention. I thought, "Wait a minute. So you go in, you sort it out, and then it's done effectively for, for some people." And, and that was really... I think it was really enlightening because I think, you know, a lot of the talking therapies, I guess, that people are exposed to are about repeatedly, you know, I, I, I don't want to sort of, um, mischaracterize, uh, certain therapies, but the, but as a principle, you know, talking your way through the problems and then trying to, you know, co- consciously change your pattern of thinking for next time you're in that scenario. And I think that can of course play a role, but what I've found with IFS is that you literally go in, you rewrite the story, your brain [laughs] absorbs that new story, and then you go out into the world as a different person.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 11:45 I, I thoroughly agree. Uh, you know, there's the line, you can't change what happened. You just have to move on from it. You can't change the past. It turns out that in this inner world, you can literally change the past by doing what you were talking about, which is to go into the trauma- And actually retrieve the part that's stuck back there and bring it to a safe place. And even as you, if I were to have you go into an- wherever one of your little boys is stuck in the past and be there with him in the way he needed it, I would have you ask him, does he need you to do anything for him back there? And he, he might have... He might watch you protect him from whoever is hurting him. And that literally changes the past for that boy, that inner boy. It doesn't change the facts of what happened in the outside world. But you're right, my point of view, too many therapies are trying to get this cognitive insight to happen when, in fact, these parts are stuck in a limbic place that you're not, you're not even touching with those insights.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 12:57 It was quite an incredible experience to... You know, I've d- I've, I've had many, many IFS sessions and, you know, one in particular that I remember was, you know, we went through the process. Uh, I think this was done on Zoom actually. Maybe this was in the first lockdown from recollection. But you literally, in your mind, go back to a particular incident that you can then vividly see. And then I remember that the therapist helped me as my 40-year-old self to go in and sit alongside, maybe next to, the five-year-old little boy and see the situation. I was observing the situation, first of all. I could see the interaction.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 13:50 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:50 And then I think he guided me to speak to myself as a five-year-old and-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 13:56 Mm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 13:57 ... you know, understand the pain and say, "Look, I understand. I, I, I get why you're feeling so upset at the moment." Um, but then once we'd done it a few times in this session, I also then spoke to my mum, right?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 14:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:10 So this was a session where it was me and my mother.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 14:13 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:14 And I could see my mum as the way she looked when I was five.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 14:20 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:20 And I was having a conversation with Mum, and I was almost, uh, helping the two of them. A- and it sounds crazy to say the two of them, 'cause it was, it was me-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 14:30 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:30 ... as a five-year-old-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 14:31 I understand

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 14:32 ... and my mum, like, what? [laughs] 35 years ago. A lot younger, looking different. But almost, you know, being there, trying to, trying to show each other each other's points of view and then, um, and then watch the room change. The, the whole dynamic change, and my five-year-old self had a little smile, and he was now playing with his mum. And then I'd check in a few times and say, "Do you need anything more?" And, you know, there's a whole process there which, um, of course we can talk about later perhaps. But it... I, I think what's incredible is that it feels like someone might think that's an inner sort of made-up world.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 15:16 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:18 But it felt real. A- and then not only did that feel real, Dick, it transformed that part of my relationship with my mother.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 15:30 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:30 But I didn't have to consciously try. It just... And that's what I think, for me, I'm sorry to go on about it, but that's the incredible power-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 15:38 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:38 ... is that you rewrite the story.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 15:41 Mm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 15:41 And then I know when you sleep, so I spoke to Matthew Walker about this recently on the show, the professor of, uh, sleep medicine. Um, and he just says, yeah, you can literally rewrite memories. Uh, I think it's in the, in the REM sleep cycle, I think. Um, so yeah. Any, any sort of, any sort of comments on what I've just said?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 16:01 Well, you said a lot. Um, first I'll say yes, it isn't imagined, and that is something I've run into frequently, where people think, "Oh, that's a nice fantasy you're creating with, with a client." For me, it's all a, a very real other world that's, uh, just, you know, just right accessible to everybody if they just turn their focus inside and begin to ask some questions and, and look around. And what happens in that inner world has a big impact on your outer world, and on your body and your mind. So, um, and that's been a tough sell, too. So it isn't like you're imagining what you did with your mother or with that five-year-old. Uh, it's, it's literally a different world. It's the, it's the world that shamans enter in- with their ways of entering it. And they, they have similar processes. Uh, yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:05 One, one of the things I love about your way of thinking is that all of these parts that exist within us, you say that there are no bad parts, right? Uh, in fact, the, you know, that's the name of your latest book, which is... I mean, I've read a few of them. This one's, I think, a great intro for people.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 17:24 Thank you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 17:25 It's really concise, and it gets really to the point for people. But yeah, the, the idea that there's no bad parts, they're all playing a role. You know, like, you know, we could say in our outside world all of our behaviors are serving some role. We can try and change the behavior b- and then realize after two or three weeks we keep reversing back. Or we can try and identify, well, why am I going to that behavior? It's, it's kind of completely mirrored in our inner world as well. Those parts are there for a reason, aren't they?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 17:58 Yeah. Um, if they're causing symptoms or problems, it's likely that they're in their extreme role. It's not who they are. And that's one of the big mistakes our culture and also psychotherapy has made, has been to assume the part is What it seems to be. So this inner critic is just a bundle of, uh, internalized parental voices, and the f- the binging addictive part is just a a- is just a, an addiction, and so on and so on. And when you think of them that way, then you're gonna wanna either try to do best to ignore them or to fight with them and wrestle them into submission or do something coercive with them. And that's what I was doing when I, my clients first started talking to me about their parts. I was trying to get them to stand up to the critic or, or contri- contain the binge, and it was just making it worse. And at some point, I just decided, uh, 'cause it was not working at all, to ask what's going on. And I learned that that was a big mistake because they are these very valuable parts that are frozen in these traumas, get forced into these extreme roles, and think you're still five years old, and think they still have to protect you in the way they did back then. And once they learn that you're not still five years old, which you can just tell them that, and often they're shocked. And then once they b- they learn that there's this other person in there who can talk to them, what you called your 40-year-old self, which I've come to call the Self with a capital S. And this, this I think is the biggest contribution of IFS is that in addition to these parts, and especially when they relax in open space, there's this other person who emerges with the basically the same qualities in everybody. And at some point, I decided to catalog the qualities of that person, and oddly enough, they all begin with the letter C. So we have the eight Cs of self-leadership, which include calm. Like, let's say I was working with you and I was, uh, trying to help you with your inner critic, and I had asked you how you feel toward it. And you said, "I hate it." And I said, "Well, let's just ask that part that hates it so much to give us a little space for a few minutes." And if it was willing to, then I'd say, "Now how do you feel toward it?" And if it really separated, you'd say some version of, "I'm just kinda curious to why it's calling me names all the time." Seconds earlier, you hated it. Now you're curious, you're calm, you're confident. You might even have compassion for it spontaneously. And also, you have the courage to work with it. You have, you're creative in how you work with it. You, um, you, you see it clearly now. It's not a big monster. It's a teenage kid in there. And you feel more connected to it. You wanna connect more to it. All of those we've come to see as qualities of this self that when I would do the same process of getting other parts to separate, would pop out in everybody, and it's the same, basically the same person who knows how to heal and knows how to relate in a healing way, both to parts and to people.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 21:42 As you learn through this process to become compassionate to every part that lives inside you, I found a natural consequence of that is you find it much easier to be compassionate to all the people, all the parts, all your interactions in your external worlds. Again, this mirror, like what's going on inside completely reflects what's going on outsides. And I feel that's one of the reasons why, you know, I said to you at the start of this conversation, IFS has had a huge impact on my sense of calm, contentment, happiness, wellbeing, my relationships. Because it's not just about healing yourself, I don't feel. It's also through healing yourself, you, you instantaneously heal your interactions with everyone else as well.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 22:39 Yeah. You said that so beautifully, and that is some of the what excites me now is to bring it to interactions in, in systems that are larger because you're right. How you relate to these parts inside is going to mirror how you relate to people in the outside world. So if you hate your critic and someone's critical of you, that part that hates it is gonna interact with that person. If instead, you're, you're, you can, uh, listen to and re- and help relax and ultimately have huge compassion for your critic, then when this person is critical of you, you'll see past their part. You'll see the pain that might be driving their criticism. You'll have compassion for them, and you can interact with them in a totally different way. So that's a big part of the larger vision of this is helping people relate with compassion both to their parts and then to the people around them.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 23:47 I wonder if we could get into some specifics so that people can really kind of understand what specific conditions this might be helpful for. I don't even like that question. I don't like the word conditions because, again, that's quite pathologizing and it's sort of putting people in a box. But I guess in view of where much of society currently is and how they see labels and sort of diseases, um, maybe we could go back to the start when you came up with this, you know, the, the, the origins of this idea, and I believe it was around people who were suffering with eating disorders?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 24:21 Yeah. Yeah, I at the time was, I, I just graduated my PhD, and I was a zealous family therapist. I thought we'd found the Holy Grail, and that people who were spending a lot of time mucking around in the intrapsychic world were wasting their time 'cause we could fix all that just by reorganizing these external relationships, and I was determined to prove that. And so, uh, I picked a symptom that you could count to, to be able to show good outcome, which at the time was, this was back around 1981. Uh, so th- I'm, I'm old, and this is, the model's been around a long time. But, um, yeah, bulimia was a kind of new diagnosis at the time. And so we gathered together 30 bulimic kids and did straight structural family therapy with the families, and at least my clients didn't get better. And so out of frustration I began asking why, and they started talking this language of parts. They would describe how when something bad happened, this critic would attack them inside, and that would bring up a part that felt totally worthless and empty and alone and young. And that feeling was terrifying. It was really, really distressing. So almost to the rescue would come in the binge and would turn them into an unfeeling eating machine, and there'd be a lot of relief in that. But then after the binge were off, the critic would attack them now for being a pig on top of everything else, and that, of course, would bring back that worthless, empty, young place. So the binge had to come back, and they'd be trapped in that vicious three-part spiral for days. And again, it was intriguing to me because it sounded like these sequences of interaction that we were studying in families. And, uh, as I've... You know, and Gabor and I had this conversation too, as I've studied more and more addictions, quote unquote, you do find that same kind of three-part circle happening with most, most, most addictions.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 26:39 I mean, that three-part cycle you, you just outlined, I'd be surprised if anyone listening or watching this can't relate to some element in their life where they went through that pattern, whether it was as extreme and as severe as an eating disorder, or whether it was possibly, I don't know, trying to cut out sugar and managing for a few weeks, but then having the kind of dive into the tub of ice cream one night in front of the sofa, then feeling worthless afterwards or the following morning, and then shame and guilt, and then, um... But I, but I guess the IFS approach, or one component of it, is that it's not them that's feeling shame and guilt, it's a part of them. Is that-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 27:30 That's right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:30 Yeah. And, and-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 27:31 Yeah, totally

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:32 ... and, and we sort of have that in our language already, right? We talked about how language works against us sometimes in terms of, oh, it's our mind and our body, without recognizing there's many different parts to our mind. But maybe language also helps us here as well because we, you know, we sometimes say, don't we, it's, "Oh, that's, you know, a part of me doesn't want that to happen," or-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 27:53 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 27:53 ... you know, that's kind of there in common parlance. So in some ways, that helps us understand, yeah, it's not me, it's a part of me. And-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 28:01 That's right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:02 ... yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 28:02 That's why I use the word part. It, it isn't that descriptive of these inner little beings, but it's the most user-friendly word. It's the word that most, like you said, everybody uses in their daily parlance. So if I'm, you know, meeting you for the first time and you describe your problem to me and I say some version, "Oh, so when this happens, you f- this, a part of you feels this inside. Is that right?" People say, "Yeah, that's right." "Oh, and then another thing, and then you start to criticize yourself, so that critic comes in. Is that right?" "Yeah, that's right." "And then what happens?" And I can say, "Oh, so another part does this." And people don't say, "What the hell are you talking about?" Where they would if I said, "One of your subpersonalities or one of your ego states," or something like that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 28:52 Parts come in different forms. I know you talk about them as exiles, uh, protectors, managers, firefighters. I wonder whether you could explain what these different parts are and how they become formed.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 29:07 Yeah. So those, what you just described are the roles that they're forced into, not who they, who they are when they're not hurt or burdened or forced into being responsible protectors. But yeah, when I was hearing about this originally from these bulimic kids, I'm a systems guy, so I'm listening for distinctions and patterns, and, and the big distinction that leaped out immediately was between the parts of them that were hugely vulnerable and hurt or terrified or felt total- totally worthless, and then the parts that tried to keep all that locked away and protect, protected clients so that, that, all that stuff never got triggered and was kept in a kind of inner basement all the time. And to go back to the, the vulnerable parts, so you've heard the term inner children before. These are these young, very, very vulnerable and sensitive parts of us, who when they're not hurt, give us all kinds of delight and creativity and joy and playfulness, and so on. But once they get hurt, and again, they're the most sensitive parts of us, so they get hurt the most, or terrified or shamed, they carry what I'm gonna call the burden of, of pain or, or fear or worthlessness. It's like, um, almost like during the trauma, the beliefs and emotions from the trauma enter the part almost like a virus and attach to the part and then drive the way it operates from that point on. And so parts contain burdens, but they aren't the burdens they carry. Those came into them from those experiences. So, yeah, the parts... So these exiled parts carry those particular burdens, uh, from being rejected or abandoned or neglected or, or actually physically abused and so on. A- and after they get hurt, they leave, they shift from their delightful state, and now they have the power to make us feel all that sort of perpetually, a- all the time. And they're frozen in time, like I say, in the trauma, and they can pull us back into that, those scenes. And so we sort of naturally, and then our culture, at least in the US, as being a rugged individualist culture, we are told to lock all that away and just move on. Don't look back. You can't change what happened. Just move on. And in doing that, you're moving away from, you're exiling these very precious, young, vulnerable parts of us simply because they got hurt and they carry those burdens. And when you get a lot of exiles, you feel a lot more delicate, and the world seems a lot more dangerous because so many things could trigger them. And when they get triggered, it's like these flames of emotion explode from those basements and threaten to make it so you can't function or make it so you're, you're just constantly feeling their feelings.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 32:48 What, what do those flames look like? Is that anger? Is that rage? Is that a blazing row with your partner? What, what does that look like?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 32:56 Yeah. So, um, the, the flames that the survivors of abuse that I studied for so long are most afraid of are much more emotional pain and terror and shame. That's what gets locked up first. Then the protectors go into rage, uh, and then they become scary too. So they become what I call protectors in exile. So you wind up locking up not just these vulnerable parts but also the parts that get extreme in their, their f- fury to try and protect you. Uh, and, and then you also try to lock up the other parts that are just trying to keep you higher than those flames of emotion, uh, that we call firefighters that often tend to, to lean toward addictions and things like that. To- toward things that can counter all this pain or shame or terror and get you higher than those flames. So yeah. So when you get a lot of exiles, other parts are forced into roles we call protectors, and some of them are trying to manage your life so that nothing touches those exiles. They'll manage your relationships so that no one gets close enough to hurt them, or they'll manage your appearance so that people don't reject you, or they'll manage your performance so that you get a lot of accolades. Uh, and so they're constantly thinking and managing and worrying. And, uh, so most of us are very familiar with those 'cause they run our lives. They also become the inner critics. They're, they're criticizing you usually to try and motivate you to do better, look better, try harder. But sometimes they criticize you to run down your confidence so that you don't take any risks and you stay small and hide your, hide your, uh, power. And there's a whole variety of what we call manager protective roles. Uh, I just mentioned a few of them. But women in particular are socialized to have these massive caretaking parts that don't let them take care of themselves, which often leads, and Gabor and I both agree, often leads to physical symptoms. That's often what's behind physical symptoms, um, medical symptoms. And so those are manager parts. Again, what they have in common is they're trying to control everything, often they're trying to please everybody, and they are just trying to keep the exiles contained and f- and not triggered.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 35:46 Certain parts you've called protectors, and I've heard you say in articles, in previous conversations that often when couples fight, it's actually their protectors fighting each other. I wonder if we could sort of dive in here a little bit because I'm sure [chuckles] most people, if not everyone listening to the show, has been in that situation where someone close to them, let's say their partner, um, they- they've had a blazing row with. And I think this is a really quite empowering and quite comforting idea that it's actually not them rowing with each other, it's actually their protectors. So [chuckles] maybe talk about it in, in the context of couples fighting.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 36:37 Yeah. Often when couples come into my office, it's parts wars. There's no self in sight, you know, the s- the C word self that I was talking about earlier, and it's just these protective parts battling with each other. And, um, and when they, when these parts take over, I know, you know, I can, I can stay in self, uh, with most people in most contexts except my wife. And she [laughs] like nobody has a way of, of triggering my protectors. And when that protective part of me takes over and we're in it, you know, she looks different. She looks far less attractive. I'm thinking all these negative things about her that I don't think about otherwise. And out of my mouth comes things that, you know, I don't really believe, but, you know, I believe, you know, a version of that in a, in a nasty voice. And both of us have gotten very good at when that starts to happen, calling a time out, and we would... We both go in, we separate, and we do what we call a U-turn in our focus. So instead of focusing on her and what's wrong with her, I focus inside and I notice the part that was doing the talking. I notice what it's protecting, and when it feels like I can be back in self, in those C word qualities, then I invite her to come back and I speak from self for those parts to her. Like, "When you said that thing, it triggered this really, a furious part of me, and I, I could feel it really going off on you, and I'm sorry I let it do that. And when I listened inside, it, you know, it was protecting this very, this very hurt part that, uh, that really didn't, you know, really took to heart what you were saying about me as a person that didn't feel good at all. And so I wanna speak for that part too, and I, I wish you wouldn't say things like that 'cause it really does go right to that heart."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 38:59 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 38:59 "But I am very sorry that I let that, that big protector take over."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 39:06 Thank you for sharing that example. I imagine that you, Dick, have got a pretty good level of self-awareness as to when it's your parts and your protectors starting to take over and speak, given the work that you do, given the, you know, the amount of time you've been helping people, and through that, I'm sure helping yourself. That might be quite difficult for people initially, like in the actual emotion of a fight or conflict. It might be quite difficult to be able to even have that awareness to take a pause and say, "Hey, look, you know, we just need to sort of change perspective at the moment. Just I'll come back in five minutes," or whatever. A- and I guess when I think of IFS, and certainly my relationship with IFS, I feel that it does an incredible job, first of all, of giving people awareness where previously there may not have been awareness, which I think is incredibly valuable, but it doesn't stop there. I think it takes the next step, which is, okay, now that I've got the awareness, let me go in and, I guess, in my words, I would say rewrite the story, change something. Whereas not all therapies, in my experience, do that. So let's go back to couples for a second. Um, anyone who's hearing this who might be thinking, "Yeah, that happens with my husband, or my wife, or my partner," um, is there anything practical they can think about doing in that moment?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 40:40 The moment when a protector takes over?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 40:42 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 40:43 Um, get away from [laughs] get away from your partner. Um, and, you know, there, there are still times where I, I'm not aware and Jean will say, "You know, you are... You're in a protector." I say, "No, I'm not. Nope." [laughs] And still I'll listen to her, and I'll separate, and I'll find out, oh, she's right, you know?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:08 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 41:08 Uh, even though I don't wanna admit it. Um, but yeah, it's challenging. It takes a while before you, you get the hang of it. And there is a very physical... Like, I could do an ex- exercise with you or with your audience-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:23 Yeah, sure

Dr. Richard Schwartz 41:23 ... where you would really feel the physical difference between a protector and what I'm calling self.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:31 Let's do it. Yeah. I, I'd be up for that.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 41:33 Okay. All right. So think of somebody in your life that, uh, triggers you. And, uh, you don't have to disclose who it is, but you can if you want. Kind of consistently gets your goat.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 41:54 Okay. Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 41:56 All right. And then put that person in a room by him or herself, and you're outside the room looking through a window at him, or her, or they. And the, the room is contained.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:15 Okay. Yeah. I'm there. I'm looking.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 42:18 All right. And then while you're looking, have the person do or say the thing that gets to you, and just notice what happens in your body and your mind as that protector jumps in.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 42:40 I felt just a general sort of tightness and tightening up in my body and my mind, uh, a frustration. Um, yeah, those, those are the things that I initially felt.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 42:59 Yeah. So, so you're noticing your muscles and you're frustrated in your mind.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:05 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 43:05 Also check and see how open your heart is now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:09 I also felt my heart rate going up actually, which I didn't-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 43:12 Uh-huh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:13 ... say. As soon as you s- said it before, I felt-- I could really feel my heart and it going up.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 43:18 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:18 So, um, I would definitely say it does not feel open.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 43:22 Yeah. And what kind of urges or impulses are coming as you see the person doing this?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 43:36 You know, things like, "Oh, I wish they wouldn't. Um, why do they keep doing that over and over again? We've, we've, we've, we've been here before. We've had that conversation. Why does it keep happening?" Those are the things that are coming up for me.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 43:51 Yeah. Okay. And then keeping your eyes closed, but go ahead in this inner world and look at that person through the window and tell me what he, or she, or they look like now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:08 Well, [laughs] I mean, even just looking at them through the window, I felt my body lighter and relaxed, and I actually felt a smile come on.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 44:22 Okay.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 44:23 Um, and I just see them being just, you know, being themselves. Like, just for who they are. Like, I can actually just see that just they're very close to me. They've got all these lovely qualities. Uh, they're just getting on with their day. That's... Again, I, I'm not sure I'm-- [laughs] this is me and my, my programming, but, like, I'm not sure I'm doing it right. Um, but-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 44:51 Oh, no, no. No, that's, that's great. So what happened when I asked you to look at the person, that evoked yourself, and that protector relaxed somehow. And, and so just notice now what it feels like in your body and in your mind.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:14 Yeah, it feels completely different. I feel less tense. I feel heart rate's slowed down. I actually-- I even feel my, my tone of voice has changed somewhat. I feel-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 45:25 Totally changed. Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:26 ... has it?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 45:27 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:27 Yeah. And, um, yeah, I want to smile, and I do feel open-hearted at the moment.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 45:32 Yeah. And you would relate from this place if the person was in the room, right, was in your room now, right?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:40 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 45:41 Yeah. All right, but to continue just for a minute, go back to that protector who was so irritated-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 45:50 Okay

Dr. Richard Schwartz 45:50 ... and fi- find him again in your body.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:00 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 46:02 And how do you feel toward him as you notice him there?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:14 So I, I, I'm aware. I can feel, um, when, when I go back to protector, I can feel a tightness in my upper right back. And how do I feel towards it?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 46:29 Yeah. How do you feel toward him or it?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:35 Well, I feel... I guess I feel a separation first, uh, first, first of all. A separation in the sense that, oh, I can see that that is just a part that's kind of-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 46:48 Uh-huh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:48 ... sitting there.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 46:49 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:49 It's not all of me.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 46:50 That's right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 46:50 That's the first thing I can see. Um, I guess I want to say I feel [laughs] compassion towards it, but I don't in this moment-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 47:02 No

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:02 ... I don't think.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 47:02 No, no. I-- just be totally honest. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:05 Yeah, I don't.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 47:06 So what do you feel?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:07 Probably a frustration that it's there.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 47:09 Yeah, of course. Okay. But we are gonna ask the one who's frustrated with the angry one if it would give us the space to help it and get to know it a little bit, and just see if the one who's so frustrated would be willing to open some space and separate a little bit.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:30 Yeah. It's willing to step away.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 47:33 Okay. And then focus on the irritated guy again and notice how you feel toward him now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:40 Well, as the frustrated part, uh, steps away, I actually just felt that area ease off-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 47:50 Uh-huh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:51 ... literally instantaneously.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 47:54 Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 47:54 And, uh, you know, it still surprises me wh- wh- [laughs] you know, when that happens, but it, but it really just happened immediately. I just didn't feel that tightness as soon as it, um, happily steps away. And perhaps-- could that be 'cause I've done some of this work before and so, uh-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 48:13 A lot of times people can do it this readily, so-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:16 Okay. So it-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 48:16 But-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:16 ... steps away. I feel lighter

Dr. Richard Schwartz 48:18 ... and how do, how do you feel toward the original protector now?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:23 Yeah, I feel... I, I feel okay towards it. I feel, oh, okay, it was, it was there. It was trying to do something. It-- I feel, I feel it's in the word, right? But I, I feel it was trying to protect me, and-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 48:41 Uh-huh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:41 ... I'm actually quite thankful. It's like, "Okay, cool. You were- You're trying to protect me, but you, you don't need to. But-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 48:49 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 48:49 ... I see what you were trying to do.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 48:51 So yeah, t- say those words to him and just see how he reacts to getting that appreciation.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:07 Yeah. He, he feels, he feels good actually. He feels almost relieved that, oh, I had to-- I've got to do that role, but you're saying I don't need to do that role. So yeah, I would say he feels relieved.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 49:23 That's great. Yeah. Ask him how old he thinks you are.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:41 He thinks... I mean, you know, sometimes I, I find you just have to trust here because sometimes I'm like, "Well, is, is it my mind imagining this or is this-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 49:57 Right. Right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 49:57 ... really happening?" But what I f- what I think or what I feel he thinks I am is five years old.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:05 Right. So let him know you're older than that and just see how he reacts to that information.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:19 Yeah. Um, again, I, I, I think it's relief that-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:25 Yeah. Yeah. So let him know you can handle a lot more than you could when you were five, and that he doesn't need to keep protecting you this way from people like the one in the room. That you can deal with these people.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:43 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:45 And see if he's starting to trust that more.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:49 Yeah. I feel that that part is happy to, to stand aside, and that, that word relief keeps coming up, that-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 50:59 Good. Good

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 50:59 ... hey, yeah, that's, I don't need to... It's quite a tiring role. I don't need to do it anymore.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 51:05 That's right. And ask him if he really came to trust that, what might he like to do inside of you instead of this, uh, being this irritated guy? If he could do anything he wanted.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:21 I, I think he just wants to hang out and, and [laughs]

Dr. Richard Schwartz 51:24 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:25 ... and sort of-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 51:26 Relax

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:27 ... and relax and chill and sort of accompany me along my life and see what I'm doing. That's, certainly that's what I'm feeling.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 51:38 So let him know that that's his new role if he wants it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:43 Okay.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 51:46 Um, does this feel like enough? 'Cause we could keep going, but what do you think?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 51:54 Yeah, look, I mean, certainly for me it feels enough. Um, I'm very happy to keep going. My, as I said at the start, I, I really want this to have value for people. I really want them to get a sense that actually it can be helpful in so many different, uh, instances. So if you feel keeping going would be helpful, then yeah, let's do it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 52:17 Okay. Yeah. Let's keep going. All right, so go back to him and ask him if he protects another part of you that's vulnerable. And don't think of the answer, Rangan. Just wait and see what comes.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 52:47 Well, he's saying he's protecting the five-year-old me.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 52:52 Yeah. And ask if he would give us permission to go to that five-year-old so we can heal him.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:03 Yeah. He says yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 53:05 And then just ask in general in there if there are any other parts of you that might be afraid for us to do that or to do it in this context of your podcast.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:24 So the part that's presenting itself at the moment is, will this be useful for anyone? Will anyone think this is helpful for me, or will they think, you know-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 53:39 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:39 ... what are you doing? So that's, that's the part that's coming up.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 53:43 So let's, let's just see if he'll give us some space even. Uh, you know, I strongly suspect it'll be very helpful. But just ask him to trust you and me for a minute and to step back in there.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 53:55 Okay. Yeah, he's stepped back.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 53:58 Any other fears about going to the five-year-old?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:03 No. I'm quite sort of looking forward to it actually.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:08 Okay. Then go ahead and focus on him and find him in your body or around your body.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:20 Okay.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:22 Where do you find him?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:26 I mean, I think I find him around the stomach area.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:30 Okay. And as you notice him down there, how do you feel toward him?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:37 Yeah. Like love.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:41 Good.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:41 And I feel I'm breathing-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:42 So let him-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 54:42 ... more de- as I focus on the stomach area, I feel instantaneously I'm just breathing more into it and I'm breathing- More deeply and more slowly

Dr. Richard Schwartz 54:54 Perfect. And let him know that you love him, and just see how he reacts.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:05 Yeah, he's got a big smile on his face.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 55:08 Good. And how close would you say you are to him in there in terms of meters away?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:15 I'd say I'm about one and a half to two meters away from him.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 55:20 Okay, good. Yeah, so you're pretty close. So let's just ask what he wants you to know about himself, and don't think of the answer, just wait and see what he says to you.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:41 What was... Can you repeat the question?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 55:43 Well, yeah, just the open question of what does he want you to know, Adam, so.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 55:52 He's saying, um, he wants me to know that he wants to be loved.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 56:00 Uh-huh. Okay. So let him know you get that. And maybe you can repeat to him that you love him. And see if that feels good, or it's not enough, or he wants somebody else. Just ask.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:24 No, he, he loves that, that I've told him I love him.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 56:28 Okay, good. Yeah. So he does seem to trust that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 56:35 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 56:36 Okay, good. All right, then ask what he wants you to know about what happened to him in the past. And again, don't think, just wait and see what comes. And you don't have to share it if you don't feel like it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:09 Yeah. He's, um, he's told me something about, um, this, this desire to be loved, this, um, really that he wants to be unconditionally loved-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 57:31 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:31 ... no matter what he does is what he really wants.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 57:35 And so he w- he didn't feel that? Is that what he's saying?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:40 Yeah, he's telling me that he feels he has to, um, do certain things-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 57:46 Uh-huh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:46 ... in order to feel that love.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 57:49 Yeah. What's that like for him to have to do that?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 57:52 He d- doesn't like it. It feels like it's tiring. It's always an effort. He's... Yeah. He, he, he doesn't like it.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 58:04 And what does it make him feel about himself?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:12 It makes him feel that, um... Yeah, he, he feels he's got to do things to get that love, so he feels that he's gotta change parts of who he is and how he does things-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 58:34 Uh-huh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:34 ... to, to get that love.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 58:36 Yeah, so he feels that parts of him aren't acceptable by themselves.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:42 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 58:44 Okay. And how are you feeling toward him as you're getting this?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:50 I mean, me?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 58:54 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 58:54 I, I feel, um, nothing but just waves of compassion for him. I just wanna cuddle up this five-year-old's, uh, [laughs] I-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 59:07 So-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:07 ... I wanna cuddle up me as a [laughs] five-year-old.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 59:10 Right. Right. So go ahead and do that, and also let him know that you're getting how, how hard that was for him, that, that we're all getting that. It sounds really hard. And see how he reacts to being understood.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:30 Yeah. He's got, got a smile on his face because-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 59:34 Good

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 59:34 ... he knows that I'm there to be there for him and support him, and, uh, I think he kind of really likes it that I'm there.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 59:43 Good. And you can be there with him, but let's, let's go into the time that he's stuck in the past and be there with him too, such that you don't see yourself with him. You're just there. You see him and his surroundings. Just like you and I are talking, you don't see yourself with me. You're just talking to me. So I want you to do the same with him, just be there in the way he needed somebody in the past where he's stuck, and just tell me when you're back there with him.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:19 Yeah. I'm back there with him.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:00:21 And how are you being with him?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:29 I'm, I, I'm trying to have fun with him. Uh-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:00:34 Uh-huh

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:35 ... I've got smiles on my face.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:00:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:37 Uh, I wanna... I'm trying to show him that he is loved and that he doesn't need to change who he is. So I'm, yeah, I'm trying to just radiate, uh, warmth and, uh, a- and love towards him.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:00:52 Perfect. And he seems to be, uh, trusting that.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:00:58 Yeah. He's, um, he's just giggling now and, uh, laughing and, like, I, I can see him beckoning me over to sort of play with him

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:01:09 Good. And then ask him if there's anything he wants you to do for him back there before we take him to a good place. Is there anybody he wants you to say something to or deal with for him?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:28 Uh, yeah, he does. He wants me-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:01:33 Okay

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:01:33 ... to, um, have a chat to, you know, other people there who he feels don't understand.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:01:47 Yeah. So go ahead and do that for him, as much as he needs you to, and he can watch how you deal with them.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:11 Yeah. He's seen me have a conversation, explain, um-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:02:19 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:19 ... how he's feeling-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:02:23 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:23 ... and, you know, he's ... He can see that I'm explaining it very non-confrontationally, very kindly, just trying to-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:02:34 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:34 ... share a different perspective, and he's kind of nodding at me. He, he feel-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:02:40 Good

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:40 ... he likes the fact that I'm, I'm doing this for him.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:02:43 Yeah. I was just gonna ask how he's, he's liking watching you do this for him. Sounds like he is liking it.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:52 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:02:54 Okay. Then ask if now he's ready to leave that time and place and come either to the present with you or to a fantasy place of his choice.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:10 Yeah. He'd like to go to ... Just go and do something fun together in a different place.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:03:17 Okay. So go ahead and set that up.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:25 Yeah. So I'm taking him to, uh, the woods near his house where he likes to play.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:03:31 Great.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:32 And, um, yeah, we've gone there on our, on our, on our bikes.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:03:37 Good. And so tell him you're gonna be taking care of him now this way. And given that, ask if he's ready now to unload the feelings and beliefs he got back there.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:00 Yeah, he's ready.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:04:02 And ask where he carries all that in his body or on his body.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:25 Um, I'm not getting an answer. I, I don't think he knows.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:04:30 Okay. Just ask him to just check ... Scan his body and see if there's something that doesn't belong to him, in it or on it. And if he can't find it, that's fine, it's not a problem. But just have him check.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:04:48 Yeah. He says it's in his stomach.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:04:50 Okay. And what would he like to give it up to? Light, water, fire, wind, earth or anything else?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:03 He'd like to put it into a fire.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:05:07 So maybe set up a fire for him and tell him to take all that out of his stomach and let the fire take care of it, and just do that until it's all gone.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:31 Yeah. He's put it all in the fire.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:05:34 How does he feel without it?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:37 Yeah, he likes it. It feels good. He's ... Says he feels sort of lighter and freer.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:05:43 Uh-huh. And tell him now if he'd like to, he can invite qualities into his body, and you can just see what comes into him, what he ... whatever he'd like to have.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:05:57 Yeah. He said he would like that.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:06:00 So tell him to go ahead. Whatever he'd like to have, just tell him to invite it in.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:11 Yeah. He's invited it in.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:06:14 How does he seem now?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:17 Yeah. He feels ... He, he, he seems good. He's, um, smiling. He's, um ... Yeah. He's sort of kind of moving around, sort of playing around-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:06:31 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:31 ... um, looking around in the woods. Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:06:36 Okay. Good. And let's invite the guy who was protecting him to come and see him now and just see how that part reacts.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:06:59 Yeah. The pr- the, the, the part that was protecting him- Feels, um, feels pretty good and feels, feels satisfied that he doesn't, the, the, the five-year-old doesn't need protecting anymore.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:07:19 That's great. Yeah, that's terrific. So does that feel complete for now?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:28 Yeah. Feels pretty good.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:07:30 So thank your parts for letting us do this much, and when it feels right, you can just start to shift your focus back outside.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:41 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:07:44 And how do you feel now?

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:07:47 Um, I, I feel good, actually. Um, I feel free in my body. I ... Yeah, that, that [laughs] that felt, um, that, that felt pretty significant, actually.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:08:14 Did to me as well. Um, I don't know how long that took, but it wasn't very long, and the reason is because you bring so much self right away to the process. And I, I don't know if that's because you've been working at it f- and I- with IFS for a while, or you did right away, but it's, uh, a thing of beauty to watch.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:37 I, I feel- Sorry to interrupt. If you are enjoying this content, there's loads more just like it on my channel, so please do take a moment to press Subscribe, hit the notification bell, and now back to the conversation. Bit emotional, a bit, uh, teary, and aware that several hundred thousand people [laughs] are gonna-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:09:00 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:09:02 ... uh, uh, listen to this. But yeah, it felt pretty significant, actually. And, um, I, I feel very light in my body. And speaking to what you just said, um, Dick, I don't think in my first few sessions it was that quick for me to, um ... You know, I, I, I don't think when I asked the parts to step aside, I don't think they easily did, and I, I, I think you're probably right that the fact that I'd done this on many occasions means that I can go in. Um, and maybe this conversation ca- has come at the right time because I, I was thinking today, "Should I do a session? To, to g- you know, do something with Dick?" And I thought, "Nah, you know what? There's plenty to talk about." Um, you know, I can't really think of what I would bring up anyway. Although, I will say in the last 24 hours, a couple of little bits of friction have actually occurred in my personal life-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:10:07 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:08 ... um, in a, in a way that they haven't for, for quite a while, which I guess is always ... I, I, I see IFS w- as a way of me being a compassionate detective ins- in- inside in my inner worlds.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:10:28 That's right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:28 So I can, I can sort of, you know, walk around in my inner worlds and, you know, just inquire as to what's going on and ... But, but not, not trying to, um, be annoyed at any parts-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:10:44 Right. That's right

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:44 ... but actually to, to understand why are they there.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:10:48 That's right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:49 That's, that's, that's what it's felt like to me.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:10:52 Yeah. And, and that, it does become a kind of life practice where you go through your day, and certainly if you ever get triggered, you're gonna get curious and find what we call the trailhead to that trigger, that the thought or the emotion is the trailhead. And if you stay with it, you'll find the part that it's coming from. And you do it, like you said, from c- c- curiosity and then compassion when you learn about why the part's doing it. And, uh, and what happens as you do that, which is clearly what's happening to you, is your parts come to trust you as a leader. Uh, and that's why they could separate so quickly. That's ... There are four goals of IFS. The first one is the liberation of these parts from the roles they've been stuck in so they can be who they're designed to be, which we did do with that irritated guy and, uh, also with the boy. A- and then the second goal is restoring their trust in you as a leader, in, in what I call the Self with a capital S, which because you could show that boy you could protect him and speak for him, and you were so respectful and compassionate with the angry guy, they just start to trust that there is this ... And, and when you told that angry guy he weren't five years old anymore, that helps for him to say, "Oh, there is some kind of grown-up in there that can handle things. I don't have to do it." 'Cause many of these protectors are what in family therapy we call parentified children, parentified inner children. They were forced to take on roles that they weren't equipped for, like a, a child in a family that has to be the parent.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:48 Mm.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:12:49 So they're relieved. Like you s- like that guy's kept saying he's so relieved to know he doesn't have to do it all the time.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:56 Yeah, and-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:12:58 And ... Go ahead.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:59 I, I was gonna say that in terms of inner worlds reflecting outer worlds, I mean, certainly- There's no question within my, my, my external family with, you know, the family with which I grew up, I've had to take on a role of a parent, I would say, very early on.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:13:26 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:26 That was, um, that was a big part of my role, uh-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:13:31 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:13:32 ... with my family, and so it's, it's very interesting to hear you [laughs] sort of reflect that as to what happens in our inner world as well.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:13:40 Mm-hmm. Yeah, so some of these protectors became in- both internal parental children, parentified children, and external parentified children in your family's context. And, and partly as a result, that boy never felt, uh, unconditional love. I don't know never, but he didn't feel a lot of unconditional love, um, because he had to play this role all the time. And I was gonna go through the other two goals.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:13 Oh, please.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:14:13 One is-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:14:13 Yeah

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:14:14 ... the th- the third is, uh, we didn't do a lot of it, but bringing these parts together like we did at the end, and seeing now they ha- they can form new relationships that are much more harmonious and, uh, work together in different ways. And then the last goal is to f- to for you to be more self-led in the outside world, and both in relationships with your family, but also, you know, as you get to know self more and more, uh, self has a kind of vision for your life. And, uh, some- sees clearly, that's one of those C words, and it can see injustice. And so you're motivated to do something about injustice and im- imbalance in the world. And, and so some of what, uh, I try to do is help people access more self, and then they become more and more activists. And I, I am working with, uh, some of the top activists in the world to help them do their activism from a more self-led place.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:15:26 Yeah. A- as you talk about those goals, I, I, you know, I, I'm, I'm led to this thinking about IFS that I passionately believe it's for everyone, like every single person. I cannot imagine there's someone out there who would not benefit, um, from IFS or a form of it in their lives. And I think, you know, sometimes I feel, I don't know if you ever feel this, Dick, that is it seen as a form of psychotherapy? And if it is seen as a form of psychotherapy, is that in some ways problematic in terms of expanding its reach? Because what, I, I feel it's something that sits, that you can use alongside other practices. You can use whatever religion you are, whatever your spiritual belief system is, you can still use this as a technique and as a framework for, you know, detecting what's going on in your inner world and changing it. But I think some people think therapy, oh, that, that's for sick people. Like, that's for people who've got depression or, you know, they're, they're really struggling. They need therapy. What, what on earth do I need therapy for?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:16:43 Right. You're right. It is, that is a problem as we try to expand our reach with it, uh, and we're playing with different ways to, to frame it, uh, because now we are working with non-therapists, and we are also trying to, uh, non-therapists like, uh, coaches, executive coaches and, and, uh, other kinds of professions, teachers, and, uh... But also we're, we're trying to, to how can we bring this to the public in a safe way? Because it, it is, as you saw, it can take you to delicate places quickly, and everybody's got a kind of delicate inner ecology that if you make a couple wrong moves could blow up. So that's the challenge now, and, uh, I'm, I'm convinced that there's a version of it that we can bring to the public in a safe way.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:17:48 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:17:49 But, uh, it's, it's exciting for me to hear you catch the larger vision of it because I've hel- held that vision for many, many years [laughs] basically by myself, and now a number of people are starting to carry it with me.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:04 Yeah, no, it's, it's so clear to me that it actually has universal application. You know, I, I, as I said, I, I went into it, I didn't have a diagnosed, you know, and I'm saying this with inverse commas problem or a, an official diagnosis. No, I had a, I had a, I had a body complaint and, uh, the person I was seeing thought that this would be a good thing to explore, but I could feel the difference. I could feel the power of it. And the drive for me, a lot of it was after my dad died, you know. I really wanted to understand myself better, understand my programming. Why did I think certain ways? Why did I make certain decisions in certain ways? Why did some people trigger me in certain ways and not others? And also becoming a parent, that was huge.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:18:52 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:18:53 Because, you know, you transform yourself. You, you naturally automatically transform the way that you parent.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:19:01 Exactly.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:01 'Cause otherwise you're just imprinting your kids with the same kind of adaptations that- I developed that I'm trying to get rid of or, or trying to reframe, let's put it, in my 30s and 40s.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:19:18 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:18 It's like, well, there's an opportunity here to not put that onto my kids. Um, yeah, I mean, to the point where I sometimes think, "Well, I bet you kids could intuitively get some of these concepts. Oh, that's not me, that's a part of me that just got angry." Have you got any experience of doing this with kids?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:19:38 Oh, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of IFS therapists that are, are child therapists, and they... Kids get it right away. They haven't been socialized away from the phenomena. So when you ask about one part, they'll tell you about three others. And with them we use a lot of play therapy technique, younger kids. So draw your parts or puppets or... Kids love it, actually. So it's, that's all very, very fun. And, and they have self. They ha- they have the ability. You know, they can't drive a car, but they have the ability to heal themselves that way and, and be good inner parents to their exiles. So it's, it's, uh, very joyful to work with kids.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:20:21 One of the other benefits I, I'd just like to share with people to, to really, again, keep sort of highlighting how powerful I think it is, is that I, I've been thinking a lot, um, Dick, about this concept of personality over the last few months. And, you know, for most of my life, my friends and my family would tell me I have an addictive personality, and there were various ways in which I would, um, demonstrate that addiction. If I get into something, I'm all in. Um, and you know, probably when I was at university in Edinburgh, you know, I used to like going to the casino or, uh, gambling on a game of pool or frankly gambling on anything just for a bit of a, bit of a buzz. Um, and I would do it quite a lot, but never to the point where you think this is a problem, let's say. But what's really, really interesting is as I've gone on this self-healing journey, I've not tried to stop gambling or I've not tried to stop any of those other things. They've just naturally fallen by the wayside as if they, they no longer need to be there to do what they previously did.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:21:37 Yeah, that's what we find over and over. So, you know, we have, um, groups of IFS therapists working mainly with addicts of various kinds, and rather than going to the, the part that does the addiction activity and trying to get it to stop, we go to it sort of in the way we did with your protector, and we learn about what it's trying to do, how, what it's trying to protect. We get permission to go to that, just like we did with your five-year-old, and we heal that younger part that it's protecting. And then you're right, the addict part says, "Oh, I don't need to do this. I'll do what I would rather do," and people sort of naturally stop doing it. Whereas if you came to that addict part and said, "I want you to cut this out," that part's gonna say, "You don't know what'll happen if I stop doing this. All these feelings are gonna come flooding, or I'll get suicidal if I don't have the, the distraction of the addiction." Or, so, uh, yeah, so it's just a very different approach to both understanding things like addiction and having, helping people relate to themselves around it. That again, I just want to say how thrilling it was to, to meet with Gabor because we just-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:03 Yeah

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:23:03 ... think about it basically the same way.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:23:07 Yeah, I remember my first meeting with Gabor in London a few years ago, and we just struck up such a wonderful connection. Um, there's a, you know, I'm a different generation to Gabor, but there was certainly a similarity in terms of we were seeing things, certain things within our profession didn't make sense. We were seeing things a slightly different way, and there was a real kind of, there was a real resonance between us. It was really, it was a, it was a really lovely conversation, and, you know, I'm delighted that I've got to know him well over the last few years. Um, but th- that idea about personality, I think, I think, Dick, what, what I think is incredible about this idea that there's multiple minds within us, these different parts, and if you've lived your whole life, let's say you're a 40-year-old adult and a lot of these protectors and these exiles got into place when you were five, six, seven, eight, then you might be thinking that you are a certain type of person. Like, you think, "This is my personality." But what [laughs] what I've discovered is that when you make friends with these parts, make peace with them, and, you know, go through the process of realizing that there's no bad parts, they're all there, they're all trying to protect you, I kind of feel that elements of your personality change. I'm not sure anymore if I do have an addictive personality because I don't, you know, it, I, I don't think I do. Like, I think I did, and it played a role in my life.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:24:47 Right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:47 Does that make sense to you, and is this something you've seen-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:24:49 Totally

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:24:50 ... with other people?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:24:51 Yeah, we see it over and over. You know, calling, saying that you have an addictive personality is saying you have this one mind, like we were talking about earlier-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:25:02 Yeah

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:25:03 ... and it has this inclination, and you're kind of stuck, you're stuck with that. You know, that's who you are. Instead saying, "Yeah, I've got this part who's trying to protect me by- ... distracting or, or getting the rush that you mentioned, the buzz, and it's trying to keep me away from these others, and it's a totally different understanding of yourself, and you start to relate ur- inside with a lot more, uh, a lot less shame and a lot more compassion. You know, I could take the, what's called the, the DSM, the Diagnostic Statistical Manual, and there are all these categories of diagnoses, and I could give you a parts-based, uh, description of each of those. It's, each of them is pretty accurate in terms of the way this person presents, but it's really just a description of the cluster of protectors that are dominating that person's life. And as the person heals, then those parts relax and they no longer fit that diagnosis. We just published, uh, a paper in a peer review journal where we had, uh, 13 people with moderate to severe PTSD get 16 sessions of IFS. And at the end of those 16 sessions, only one still qualified for the diagnosis because all these parts had just shifted into their naturally valuable states.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:26:41 Yeah. It's so powerful. And, you know, the way we like to label, you know, patients in my instance, clients in your instance, I, I think is, I- i- is, is potentially very problematic. On, on one hand, it's helpful because it's showing people, oh, there's... it's, you know, a lot of people feel that the medical profession think that something's in their heads, and so, you know, people like the validation, "No, no, this is not in my head. This is actually something."

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:27:15 That's right. That's right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:16 And I, and I totally get that. But I do think also by putting these labels and, you know, badges on people, I think it can really become problematic. Some people then become-- they really identify with that. That is who they are. "I, you know, I have depression. That's why I feel like this." And maybe it's just subtly shifting the language, like in, I guess, in IFS language, you know, "A part of me feels depressed at the moment."

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:27:42 That's right.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:42 Would that, would that be accurate?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:27:44 Totally. Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:45 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:27:45 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:27:46 And I, I don't use that language yet, although [laughs] I probably will soon. But I would, I would say to a patient, "Look, you know, at the moment, you have got a few symptoms that are consistent with a diagnosis of depression, but that's just at the moment, right? Let's figure out what's causing that." Um, so I'm always trying to create a bit of distance-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:28:08 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:28:08 ... uh, with my patients from the diagnosis, just so they know removing that diagnosis may be possible in the near future.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:28:15 That's right. And, and, uh, when you get that diagnosis, and, and it, it includes medical diagnoses, then you are trying to... You know, I, I reviewed a paper, uh, a book recently, uh, and I wish I could pull up the doctor's name, but I liked the metaphor she used. It's like you're driving in your car and the red light comes on on the dashboard, and so you, you pull over and you try to tear out the red light and get rid of it or, uh, take it to a mechanic and replace the red light rather than lifting the hood and seeing what's going on in there. And that's a lot of what, uh, I think both medicine and psychiatry try to do. And a lot of those attempts to get rid of the symptom can make them worse, or people take h- horrible amounts of medication that affect their bodies when all they needed to do was just focus on the symptom itself, get curious about it. We published a study some years ago in, uh, in the Journal of Rheumatology actually, where we had 30, uh, severe, moderate to severe RA patients, rheumatoid arthritis patients, and then we had, it was a random, it was a nice RCT. We had, uh, 30 who got a educational control, and the, the, uh, treatment group got a course of IFS. And at the end of it, um, many people, uh, were much better, and some went into complete remission simply by focusing on... And this was in Boston, here at, at Boston Women's Hospital. So they were mainly, uh, Irish Catholic mothers who'd never been in therapy, and we simply had them focus on the pain and get curious about it. And they began hearing from the parts that were c- using the pain to try and get a message through that, "Stop taking care of everybody else and take care of yourself instead." Which again, is just like Gabor's work.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:35 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:30:35 When the body says no, it's the body that's gonna have to say no. It's gonna cripple you so you can't take care of everybody if you don't stand up for yourself.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:43 Yeah. We'll get the links to some of these papers and put them in the show notes for people-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:30:47 Great

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:30:47 ... who wanna study more and actually read those articles. Dick, for people who, well, I guess for myself as well, I, I definitely feel that what we went through was, was pretty significant. I did feel a bit maybe shaky afterwards, and I'm not sure how much of that is, there is a part of me that is aware that this is a public forum as well. It's not just me doing this privately with just one-on-one with a therapist. So-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:31:15 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:31:16 ... you know, I'd be lying if I said that there wasn't a part of me that is very, very aware of that and wondering- Is this a good idea? Should I share it? Should I not share it? [laughs] Should I talk to my wife and discuss is this a good thing? Um, but for me, in terms of post-care after something like that, so I, I'm pretty sure I know what to do anyway, but I also wonder if some people will rewind and go through that, uh, process themselves in their own life. I think that could be really valuable for them. Any sort of words of advice, practical tips that people should be aware of so that if they do that, they know how to kind of look after themselves afterwards?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:31:58 Yeah, I'm really glad you asked that. Um, so there are two things. One is, uh, IFS isn't just the session we just did. For that to stick, the work you just did, you need to follow up. So there's a kind of homework pause practice where every day for a month or so, you go to that five-year-old, you make sure he's still in the woods or wherever you took him, uh, that, that he feels that you still remember him. You're not gonna let him, abandon him. You remind the former protector that he can just relax and trust you. So there's an ongoing, almost like a meditation every day, a kind of working with these parts to maintain the gains. And then there are some people who can just take it and run with it and do a huge amount on their own.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:32:53 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:32:53 I don't happen to be one of those, but if people do try a version of this, again, sometimes you can go very deep, very fast, and then you are, uh, potentially subject to what we call backlash, which is some of what you're feeling now about what the hell did I just do? That, that parts, um, who didn't want you to go to that boy will get really upset with you and, and, uh, you know, make sure you never do it again, and that kind of thing. So, so that's some of what we're trying to tease out as we try to bring this to the public in a safe way.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:36 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:33:36 But just to, um, if that, if that were to happen to someone in your audience, just so they would know it for what it is. It's just a part that got scared to allow you to go to these vulnerable places, and needs more of your attention before you do it again.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:33:53 Yeah, thank you for that. Uh, another... Well, there's, there's many, of course, but what resources would you like to direct people to? Um, hopefully people have, who've never heard of IFS will now be aware and think, "Wow, you know, I'm pretty keen to explore." Um, I hope some people will listen and, and go, "You know, I'd be quite keen to train, uh, [laughs] as a therapist." I, I've gotta say, Dick, sometimes I think about that. I genuinely think, I think I'd quite like to learn, uh, you know, technically, professionally. You know, we, we've not got into this in the conversation today. I was hoping to, but maybe if we, we do a part two at some point, we can talk about the, this whole idea that I have that IFS could be so useful for almost all of my patients. Because I've said before that, you know, 80 to 90% of what we see as medical doctors is in some way related to our collective modern lifestyles. That's not putting blame on people. I'm just saying the way society is set up with huge amounts of stress, kind of this, this problematic definition of success, I think, this culture of working more, doing more than your body can literally bear. I think ultimately this results in symptoms. And a lot of the time, even those of us who are inclined to think about lifestyle as a form of medicine-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:35:15 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:15 ... even then, we overly rely on things like willpower for people to make-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:35:20 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:20 ... these choices, and it can be very problematic and very short-lived. So I, I really feel, maybe we'll save this for part two, 'cause I think, um-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:35:27 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:27 ... if you're up for it at some point, I think there's a really interesting discussion there about beyond, like, your internal-- Of course it's your internal world, but it also impacts your behaviors, your willingness to exercise, your willingness to eat well. Like, I, I don't find those things an effort anymore in a way that I might have done in the past because-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:35:46 Mm-hmm

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:46 ... you know, I feel I've got a, such a high degree of compassion for myself now in a way that I didn't in the past.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:35:52 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:52 Like, I wanna look after myself, you know?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:35:55 Yeah.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:35:55 I, I wanna do stuff that, that makes me, that nourishes me. So I, I've gone off on two separate things here. I was trying to say-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:36:02 [laughs]

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:36:03 ... what resources, um... Well, feel free to comment on any of that, but also where can I point people to?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:36:10 Sure. So I'll start with the willpower issue, because that is the way we're socialized to deal with ourselves. And if you don't wanna exercise, it's 'cause you don't have willpower. And so that builds up this sort of inner drill instructor who screams at you to do it or, or overrides all the parts of you who don't want to, and creates these inner polarizations that get bigger and bigger over time. And so again, as you heal, that, that drill instructor realizes he doesn't have to do that anymore, and you, you tell him that. Uh, and, and then he relaxes like your protector did. And then you can exercise for the joy of it, and you don't necessarily, uh, maybe work out as hard as you did before. But that's okay 'cause you don't have to kick your ass to do it. And you listen to other parts who don't like that, and, uh, other parts who don't need you to be muscled and, and, uh, very thin. And it becomes a kind of a negotiation among all of your different parts and what they want with you as the, the chairman of the board or with you sitting at the kitchen table with the big discussion going on as the head of the family. Um, so... And then resources, our website is ifs-institute.com, and on it you'll find a lot of books and, uh, videos and things like that. And we also have a, a training called the Online Circle, um, mainly for people. We have a huge waiting list for our trainings now, which I feel constantly bad about, but it's a nice problem to have. So many people can't get in, so we have a online program for them to at least get the basics, and that's available to most anybody. And then in terms of books, uh, w- which aren't necessarily on the website, uh, the book you mentioned, No Bad Parts, um-

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:38:37 There it is

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:38:38 ... as you s- you said, it's a pretty easy read and, uh, uh, they c- people can get that on Amazon. And, um, and also there's a intro to IFS that, uh, we currently sell on our website, but we've just licensed to Sounds True to, to market, to sell. And then there's a book on couples called You're the One You've Been Waiting For that people seem to like a lot. It's for the public, too. So those are the books I would point people to. And, you know, there are a lot of video lectures on YouTube and, and, uh, examples of me working with people, too.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:23 Yeah.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:39:24 There's also an IFS UK group that's very, very active. I think that's their website, is IFS UK. Uh, and so there are-- They run a lot of trainings, too.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:39:37 Yeah. We're gonna pick up all these links. Uh, I'll also drop them in the show notes section so that people who, you know, wanna find out more, either as a, you know, recipient of the therapy [laughs] um, or as a practitioner, um, you know, I really want them to have places where they can go. And I, I, as I say that, Dick, as a recipient of the therapy, I, I, I immediately wanna correct that because you're not really a recipient, are you? You're an active participant-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:40:10 Yeah

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:10 ... um-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:40:10 Yeah. You know, when clients finish with me, they generally say some version of, "You're a pretty good therapist, but I healed myself."

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:40:18 [laughs]

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:40:20 And that's true. This is what's called attachment theory taken inside. Attachment theory is very influential and, and most, much of it very accurate, uh, about how kids do or don't attach to their caregivers. This is saying, "Let's get these, these kid parts to attach to you yourself, uh, and start to trust you as a caretaker." And that really frees people up because so many relationship problems are caused because my exiles wanna be taken care of by my wife. They don't, they don't know they can get anything from me. And so they latch... I, I'm not saying this is true now, because I've worked with my exiles and they trust me. But for many people, your exiles want, uh, to be taken care of in the way they weren't by your parents, by your partner, and that's an impossible task. And so your partner winds up hurting you in the same way, and then all your protectors go crazy. But if your exiles feel taken care of by you, that frees your partner up. The, your partner can be the secondary caretaker, not the primary. So one more thing before we stop I wanna mention, and that is that in addition to the resources we mentioned, there's a foundation called the Foundation for Self-Leadership that's nonprofit and, and sponsors research and, uh, kind of educational programs and, um, and is, uh, you know, just really a wonderful organization. Not connected to me, but it, it, the m- the studies that I mentioned, they fund it and so, uh, they're very interested in donations.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:42:20 Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you for sharing that. Again, we'll put all these links in, uh, for people. I just wanna say, uh, Dick, at the end of our conversation, um, that I, I think what you've given to the world is just incredible, and the ripple effects, I feel that this way of looking at our inner worlds, I think will be seen and felt for years. As the world becomes seemingly more and more divided, certainly when you go online, yet when you actually really interact in person with real people in real life, I actually find that people are loving, compassionate, caring. They, they wanna do the right thing for other people. And I really feel IFS is, is helping people be compassionate to all parts of themselves, and naturally they're gonna be more compassionate to people around them. I'd love to see it. I'd love to see people in leadership roles, [laughs] you know, politicians, uh, presidents, I'd love to see them understand this because, man, do we need it at the moment. Um, so please-

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:43:40 I was just gonna say, I said this earlier, but I don't run into many people who get the vi- the big vision of it, uh, and can articulate it in the way you just did. It's really, really thrilling for me to, to hear you and to feel our connection now.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:43:57 Oh, no, I appreciate that. A- and I think there, there's many books out there. I, I've only been reading this one for the last couple of days, you know, the new one, No Bad Parts. I, I can't think of a better primer for people because it's... You know, some books can be really heavy and deep, and people have to be really, really invested into really understanding every aspect of a particular modality, but I think this one is just so beautifully written. I think the layman can pick it up and really get a very good understanding very quickly of what it is and how it might be applicable to them. So thank you for writing such a wonderful book. Um, th- the podcast is called Feel Better, Live More. When we feel better in ourselves, we get more out of our lives. And I think once we start exploring our inner worlds more with a compassionate undertone, I think people are gonna get a whole lot more out of their lives. So I wonder, there's a, you know, as final words from you, Dick, it's all for people who, who are listening, who maybe feel a bit stuck, who maybe feel frustrated with the state of the world and, you know, their own lives. I wonder, have you got any sort of final words for people to give them a bit of hope?

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:45:16 I guess what I'd say is, um, this Self with a capital S that I've, I've been talking about, we've been talking about the last two hours, is in there, even if you never feel many of those C-word qualities. It is in there, and it's just beneath the surface of these parts that feel so discouraged and hopeless, and have you stuck. And it is possible simply by convincing them to open a little space in there to access more of that and to bring more of that to your life, both your inner life and your outer life. And, uh, some people can do it on their own or from reading the book. Some people need a therapist to help them. But, uh, I guarantee it's in there. And I also guarantee that when you stop fighting with these protectors and you start going to the exiles, all, everything starts to transform in, in the way that you so, uh, beautifully described today.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:28 Beautiful, empowering message to leave people with. Dick Schwartz, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for your incredible work. And, uh, I really look forward to the next time we get to have a conversation.

Dr. Richard Schwartz 1:46:39 Thank you for inviting me.

Dr. Rangan Chatterjee 1:46:41 If that conversation helped you with your own negative self-talk, I think you are really going to enjoy this one about the main reasons that we feel lost in life and what we can do about it.

Speaker 1:46:50 Societies are less and less natural to the makeup of human beings from the evolutionary perspective, which means that children are being brought up under increasingly artificial and disconnected circumstances.