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Finnish president Alexander Stubb on the power of listening in leadership | ReThinking

Before Alexander Stubb became the president of Finland, he left his position as prime minister thinking he’d never return to politics. But after returning to academia and writing his book The Triangle of Power, public service eventually called him back. In this episode, Adam asks Alex about his path to leadership and the relevant lessons from his days as a political scientist and an athlete. Alex shares what he learned from golfing with Donald Trump and meeting Vladimir Putin, and makes the case for listening as an underrated skill in leadership. Follow our podcasts! ReThinking with Adam Grant: https://link.mgln.ai/kdYcyx The TED Podcasts is a collection of podcasts for the curious. The TED Podcasts videos may be used for non-commercial purposes under a Creative Commons License, Attribution–Non Commercial–No Derivatives (or the CC BY – NC – ND 4.0 International) and in accordance with our TED Talks Usage Policy (https://www.ted.com/about/our-organiz...). For more information on using TED for commercial purposes (e.g. employee learning, in a film or online course), please submit a Media Request at https://media-requests.ted.com.

Alexander StubbguestAdam Granthost
Jul 2, 202640mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

President Stubb on listening, authenticity, and relationship-driven modern diplomacy today

  1. Stubb argues that informal settings like golf or jogging can accelerate trust-building and information exchange among leaders in ways formal diplomacy often cannot.
  2. He explains his career “rethinking,” including leaving politics after a difficult prime-ministership and returning due to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and Finland’s NATO path.
  3. Drawing on political science training, he describes leading with frameworks, experimentation, and psychological safety—encouraging aides to challenge his ideas and absorbing failure while taking responsibility.
  4. Stubb outlines a psychological and historical lens for understanding Putin and Lavrov, emphasizing the dangers of underestimating them and the role of nationalist narratives in shaping negotiations.
  5. He contends that democracy is struggling to adapt to high-speed modern technology, fueling attraction to strongman leaders, and calls for active civic agency to sustain liberal democracy.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Informal time together can reveal more than formal meetings.

Stubb claims golf exposes character under pressure—reactions to failure, self-control, and treatment of others—creating faster trust and more candid exchanges than scripted diplomatic settings.

For small countries, information is a primary form of leverage.

He frames influence as being a networked “matchmaker” who gathers, interprets, and shares insights between leaders, noting that this credibility can be gained—and lost—quickly.

Listening is a strategic leadership skill, not just a social virtue.

Stubb says leaders often talk rather than learn; he treats travel and meetings as opportunities to “soak in” perspectives and uncover what people will only share once trust is established.

A scientific mindset can improve political leadership—if paired with guardrails.

He describes generating hypotheses, using numbers to communicate, and testing messages while relying on a tight team to “contain” him by rejecting most ideas and refining the remainder.

Role fit matters: he’s more effective in foreign-policy leadership than domestic coalition politics.

Stubb contrasts the infighting and ideological headwinds of being prime minister with the clearer mandate and institutional team alignment of the presidency—especially when foreign policy feels existential.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

I do believe that in politics you have to be yourself, you have to be genuine.

— Alexander Stubb

You play one or two holes with a person, and that reveals the personality more than any meeting room or even quality time at a dinner party.

— Alexander Stubb

I always tell them that if we succeed, it's thanks to you. If we fail, I take the blame.

— Alexander Stubb

I think sometimes we have leaders who simply don't listen.

— Alexander Stubb

We human beings are conservative. You know, I mean, we like to sometimes just feel that there's nothing new in life. We don't wanna rethink, you know? Re- rethinking is tough. It's hard. It hurts the brain.

— Alexander Stubb

Sports as a trust-building context for diplomacyNetworking and information as power for small statesLeadership through listening and emotional intelligenceReturning to politics after career burnoutScientific thinking: frameworks, testing ideas, accepting failureNordic humility, Finnish culture, and happinessDemocracy vs. modern technology and authoritarian appeal

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