Re:Thinking with Adam GrantFinnish president Alexander Stubb on the power of listening in leadership | ReThinking
CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 0:24
Authenticity in politics: being genuine and earning trust
Stubb opens with a leadership principle: in politics, authenticity matters and straightforward leaders often rise. He frames political success as closely tied to credibility and what you project consistently over time.
- •Being yourself and genuine as a political advantage
- •A belief that politics often rewards what you "deserve"
- •Straightforwardness as a pathway to leadership
- •Implicit link between character and long-term legitimacy
- 0:24 – 1:28
Golf diplomacy: how a scholarship led to a round with a U.S. president
Adam Grant traces Stubb’s U.S. connection back to golf and his father’s advice about transferable skills. Stubb explains the matchmaking that led Senator Lindsey Graham to arrange a golf game with President Trump.
- •Golf scholarship and early U.S. ties (Furman)
- •Lindsey Graham as connector and catalyst
- •Playing in Florida as an unusual diplomatic setting
- •Sports as an unexpected bridge between leaders
- 1:28 – 2:58
What golf reveals about leaders: personality under pressure and teamwork dynamics
Stubb describes golf as a high-information environment where reactions to success and failure expose temperament. He explains why the format (best ball) removed ego stakes and made the experience collaborative.
- •Long shared time creates deeper familiarity (breakfast–golf–lunch)
- •Golf exposes emotional regulation and behavior
- •Repetition and mastery reduce performance nerves
- •Best-ball teamwork turns competition into shared incentives
- 2:58 – 3:48
Private persona vs. media persona: Stubb’s impressions of Trump on the course
Asked what he saw that others can’t, Stubb contrasts public image with private behavior. He portrays Trump as relaxed and even-keeled on the course, highlighting how contexts change what you observe.
- •Media persona can diverge sharply from private persona
- •Trump as fun, joking, and not easily flustered during play
- •Consistent reactions to good and bad shots as a signal of temperament
- •Golf as a lens into character beyond formal meetings
- 3:48 – 5:53
Networking as foreign policy: information as power for a small country
Stubb explains that while a golf game doesn’t directly cause policy outcomes, it can create relationships that become networks. For Finland, influence often comes from gathering, interpreting, and sharing information strategically.
- •Relationship-building enables respectful disagreement
- •Other leaders become curious once access is established
- •"Information is power"—especially for smaller states
- •Acting as a matchmaker (e.g., between Ukraine and the U.S.)
- •Staying active to avoid losing relevance in the network
- 5:53 – 8:00
How leaders open up: emotional intelligence, reading the room, and humanizing politics
Grant asks about behavioral psychology techniques; Stubb emphasizes flow over scripts. He describes using hobbies, shared moments, and everyday topics to build trust and reveal deeper information.
- •Diplomacy = state interests + personal communication
- •Trust-building requires moving past the "surface" persona
- •No fixed questions—adapt to context and cues
- •Small talk (sports, hobbies) as real relationship infrastructure
- •Leaders are more like ordinary people than the public assumes
- 8:00 – 10:11
Training, energy, and confidence: exercise as a presidential performance tool
The conversation shifts to Stubb’s endurance-sport background and how exercise affects his daily energy. He links morning training to posture, mood, confidence, and even tactical use of short intervals to avoid fatigue.
- •Exercise philosophy: the right dose increases daily energy
- •Training constraints as president: optimizing rather than maximizing
- •Morning workouts as confidence-building (behavioral spillover)
- •Mood and team dynamics—"grumpy" without training
- •Humor and caution around testosterone and leadership
- 10:11 – 12:54
Leaving and returning to politics: from reluctant PM to NATO-era presidency
Stubb recounts a nonlinear career path—athlete aspirations, academia, civil service, then politics. He explains the difficult PM years, the relief of stepping away, and how Russia’s war in Ukraine and Finland’s NATO path brought him back.
- •Initial intent: avoid domestic politics; focus on Europe/foreign policy
- •Unexpected pivot to party leadership and prime minister role
- •2014–2016 as a personally difficult period
- •Leadership defeat felt like liberation and opened new paths
- •Return motivated by Ukraine war and Finland joining NATO
- 12:54 – 14:33
Leading like a scientist: frameworks, testing ideas, and permission to fail
Grant probes how political-science training shapes Stubb’s leadership. Stubb describes building mental frameworks, treating ideas as hypotheses, and creating a team culture where debate is encouraged and blame is centralized.
- •Conceptual frameworks from reading/writing shape decisions
- •Scientific structure: test ideas, accept smaller failures
- •Team role: "contain" the leader—shoot down most proposals
- •Psychological safety: success credited to team, failure owned by leader
- •Limits of experimentation when stakes involve war and peace
- 14:33 – 15:57
Decision-making in practice: strategic communication, timing, and the power of numbers
Stubb offers a concrete example: whether and when to share battlefield trends and statistics about Ukraine and Russia. He explains using quantitative details to make messages stick while carefully managing uncertainty and timing.
- •Communication choices as high-stakes leadership experiments
- •Tradeoff: informing vs. overcommitting to changeable conditions
- •Using statistics to create memorable public narratives
- •Team research supports hypotheses before statements are made
- •Timing and framing as central elements of modern statecraft
- 15:57 – 17:23
President vs. prime minister: team alignment, institutional support, and public expectations
Stubb contrasts the presidency with coalition governance. As president, he experiences greater unity of purpose, clearer institutional backing, and broader public desire for success—especially given Finland’s security reality with Russia.
- •Smaller, more unified team in the presidency
- •Institutional protection role of military aides
- •Coalition politics breeds intrigue and constant opposition
- •Foreign policy and defense seen as existential and less partisan
- •Greater confidence when operating in strengths (foreign policy)
- 17:23 – 19:42
Understanding Putin: identity narratives, nationalism, and limits of influence
Stubb qualifies his limited direct exposure to Putin but draws lessons from observing Russian leadership. He stresses not underestimating Russian officials’ intelligence and explains Putin’s worldview through historical and imperial narratives.
- •Limited meetings with Putin; more familiarity with Lavrov
- •Do not underestimate opponents’ competence and preparation
- •Russian nationalist identity and zero-sum Cold War framing
- •Imperial narrative: "Russkiy Mir" and imagined historical borders
- •Realism: Putin is difficult to advise or persuade
- 19:42 – 25:46
Listening, humility, and Nordic culture: Janteloven, Finnish identity, and happiness
Grant introduces Janteloven and the humility norm; Stubb reflects on Nordic modesty, Finland’s late independence, and pride in high social rankings. They explore what Finnish happiness may reflect—meaning, fairness, nature, and egalitarian opportunity—along with Finland’s characteristically understated emotional expression.
- •Listening as an underrated leadership skill; travel as learning strategy
- •Humility norms across Nordics and Finland’s understated style
- •Happiness as meaning-making and helping others
- •Egalitarianism, education, and fairness as foundational supports
- •Cultural realism: Finns may feel happy without showing it publicly
- 25:46 – 40:43
Education, losing well, candor, democracy under stress, and a rapid-fire finish (AI included)
The final stretch covers Finland’s education model, Stubb’s amicable view of being replaced by a friend, and the balancing act of blunt honesty with necessary filtering. They discuss why people turn to strongman leaders in turbulent times, the need for active democratic citizenship, and close with a lightning round that includes peace mediation, career reflections, and AI’s effects on thinking and behavioral psychology.
- •Finnish education: teacher autonomy, rigorous training, student well-being support
- •Healthy competition and no grudges after political defeat
- •Candor as asset—and the reality of constant message filtering
- •Democracy’s mismatch with modern technology and attention dynamics
- •Active citizenship: agency, voting, and engagement as intervention
- •Lightning round: worst advice, dinner guests, talking to Putin, careers, AI and critical thinking
