How Daryl Davis inspired 200+ neo-Nazis to leave the KKK | ReThinking with Adam Grant

1. 0:00 – 1:02

   Hate is acquired—and what’s learned can be unlearned

   1. DDDaryl Davis0:00

      As kids, we all are taught a tiger does not change its stripes. A leopard does not change its spots. So we- we've- we've grown up with that. So why would anybody think a Nazi would change his swastika or a Klansman would change his robe and hood? Yes, a tiger and leopard cannot change their stripes and spots because they were born with those immutable characteristics. That's who they are. But the Klansman or Nazi is not born with that robe and hood or that swastika. That is acquired. That is learned behavior, and what can be learned can be unlearned. [upbeat music]

   2. AGAdam Grant0:38

      Okay, Daryl, when I first became aware of you, my, my understanding was that [laughs] there was, there was sort of a growing swell of former White supremacists leaving the, the Ku Klux Klan. One man, one musician, had managed to talk several hundred people out of hate. How did you end up getting into that?

2. 1:02 – 2:32

   A childhood shaped by diplomacy and multicultural immersion

   1. DDDaryl Davis1:02

      Okay. So I'm age 67 currently, and I grew up, I was born in 1958. I grew up as a child of parents in the US Foreign Service, so I was an American Embassy kid. You get assigned to a foreign country for two years. At the end of that two-year assignment, you come back home to the States, you're debriefed, and then you go back overseas again a few months later, perhaps a year later, to another foreign country for two years. So back and forth, back and forth were the formative years of my life. And my first introduction to school was abroad. I did kindergarten, first grade, third grade, fifth grade, seventh grade, all in different schools in different countries. When I was in school abroad, all my classmates were from all over the world because anybody who had an embassy stationed where we had our American Embassy, all of their kids went to the same school. So this little girl sitting at this desk n- next to me might have been from Czechoslovakia, this kid from Japan, that kid from Italy, that kid in front of me from Nigeria. So to me, that was the norm for what school was supposed to be. But every time I'd come back home here to my own country, I would be either in all Black schools or Black and White schools, meaning the still segregated or the newly integrated. And even though desegregation was passed four years before I was born, schools did not integrate overnight, right? So one of those times that I came back, I was age 10, 1968. I was in fourth grade, and I was one of

3. 2:32 – 6:07

   The 1968 Cub Scouts attack—and learning what racism is

   1. DDDaryl Davis2:32

      two Black kids in the entire school. There was a girl in second grade and me in the fourth grade. So consequently, all of my friends were White. They were fourth and fifth graders. And several of my male friends were members of the Cub Scouts, and they invited me to join, which I did. I was the only Black Scout anywhere in the area. This was in Massachusetts. And we had a, uh, a parade along with several other organizations. The sidewalks were lined with nothing but White people waving and cheering as we're marching down the streets. Until we got to a certain point, I began getting hit with, uh, bottles and soda pop cans and small rocks, uh, from just a small group of spectators off to my right. And I turned to look to see what, you know, what was hitting me, and I saw about four or five people, I remember. A couple kids who I did not know, and a couple of adults who I assume were their parents. They were throwing things. And my first thought was, "Oh, these people over here, they don't like the Scouts." That's how naive I was because I had-

   2. AGAdam Grant3:29

      Wow

   3. DDDaryl Davis3:29

      ... no precedent for that behavior, you know? Uh, that's all I could think of. It wasn't until my, my, uh, Cub leaders, Cub Scout leaders came running, and they're all White, and they covered me with their bodies and quickly escorted me out of this danger, that I realized that none of my fellow Scouts were getting this special protection. So obviously I had done something to incur their ire, you know? And I kept saying, "What did I do? I didn't do anything. Why are they doing this?" And all they would do is kinda shush me and rush me along. Tell me to, "Keep moving. Keep moving. Everything will be okay." I kept moving, but they never answered my question. And at the end of the march when I returned home, my mother and father were at home. They weren't at the march. And they were cleaning me up, putting Band-Aids on me, and asking, "How did you fall down and get all scraped up?" I told her, "I didn't fall down." I told them exactly what had happened. And for the first time in my life, at the age of 10, my mother and father sat me down and explained to me what racism was. At age 10, believe it or not, I had never even heard the word racism. I had no clue what they were talking about because that word and that behavior, again, was not in my world.

   4. AGAdam Grant4:45

      Yeah.

   5. DDDaryl Davis4:45

      I was around people from all over the world. So that's why what I'm saying is that, you know, unless you have that kind of exposure and experience, you don't think about those kinds of things. And now I'm being forced to think about it because it's in my face, and my parents are telling me this, and I didn't believe my parents. I didn't believe them, uh, that, because my 10-year-old brain could not process the idea that someone who had never seen me, never spoken to me, knew nothing of me, would wanna hurt me for no other reason than the color of my skin. That made absolutely no sense. And, um, to prove to, to them that, that they were wrong and I was right, I pointed out the fact that my friends, my fellow Scouts, my schoolmates, my friends overseas, whether they're my little Danish or Swedish or Norwegian or French friends, did not look any different than those people over there on the sidewalk. Same color. So color had nothing to do with the reason why they were targeting me. I still didn't know the reason. And, you know, we went back and forth. Well, I didn't believe them. This is 1968. Martin Luther King was assassinated. I remember it very well. Every major city in this country burned with violence and destruction, all in the name of this new word I had learned called racism. So now I accepted the fact that my parents had not lied. This phenomenon-

   6. AGAdam Grant6:07

      Yeah

4. 6:07 – 7:05

   Seeking the “why”: from books to asking extremists directly

   1. DDDaryl Davis6:07

      ... does, does exist, but I didn't know why, and that's when I formed that question in my mind. How can you hate me? You don't even know me. And for the next 57 years, 'cause I was 10 then, 67 now, I've been looking for the answer to, to that question. So when I w- you know, I have a vast library, Adam. Book, tons of books on Black supremacy, white supremacy, the Ku Klux Klan, the Nazis, the neo-Nazis, antisemitism, racism, you name it. I've read them all. They all talk about it, but they don't tell me why. And when I would ask people, they would say, "Oh, Daryl, you know, some people are just like that. That's just the way it is." Well, that's not an answer for me. And so who better to ask that question of than someone who would go so far as to join an organization with over 100-year history of practicing hating people who don't look like them?

   2. AGAdam Grant7:02

      Daryl.

   3. DDDaryl Davis7:02

      Who heard of such?

   4. AGAdam Grant7:04

      Daryl, please.

   5. DDDaryl Davis7:05

      Yes, sir.

5. 7:05 – 9:20

   Curiosity over courage: why Davis engages people who despise him

   1. AGAdam Grant7:05

      Please. I, I, I'm just mystified by one aspect of this. Who worse to ask that question of?

   2. DDDaryl Davis7:12

      [laughs]

   3. AGAdam Grant7:12

      I c- I cannot... Who in their right mind goes up to someone who-

   4. DDDaryl Davis7:16

      Who said I was in my right mind? [laughs]

   5. AGAdam Grant7:18

      [laughs] Fair. Fair. All right. Let me, let me ask that one differently. I, I mean, who, who has the audacity, the courage to approach someone who thinks that they don't deserve to exist and wanna learn from them?

   6. DDDaryl Davis7:31

      Excellent question. All right. So again, it goes back to my experience. My dad's job with the US government was to go to a foreign country and improve relations between the foreign country's government and the US government. That's what a diplomat does, right? So now, I wasn't a diplomat, I was a child of diplomats. I was around diplomacy all growing up. I just absorbed it. So it wasn't, for me, it wasn't courage as much as it was curiosity. I, I want to see how these people think. If I had grown up here in my own country, uh, and not gone abroad and been exposed to those things, would I be doing this work today? Maybe not. Maybe I'd be staying as far away from those people, it'd be us versus them kinda thing, as I could. You stay on your side of the tracks, I'll stay on my side of the tracks, and we'll just go parallel. You know? Not, not interact. You know, people ask me, "Well, how come your parents didn't warn you about this? Certainly, you know, they, they knew about racism." Yes, of course my parents knew about racism. My parents were from Roanoke and Salem, Virginia, the seat of the Confederacy. They weren't allowed to drink from certain water fountains or use certain restrooms. They had, they had to ride in the back of the bus, right? So, you know, I, I'm glad they didn't tell me about it, and I'll tell you why. Suppose my parents had told me about, about racism before I had that incident with the bottle and rock-throwing. Um, would I be wary of every white person I saw? "Ooh, I, I wonder if, if that's a white person that my parents were, were telling me about, if he's gonna act like that." Maybe I'd be a little leery. But as a result of, of not knowing and finding out that way, I became curious. Why is that person like that, but this white person is not like that? You know? So I'm glad, you know, it, it worked out that way.

6. 9:20 – 10:27

   Meeting Jeff Schoep: from ‘enemy’ to collaborator

   1. AGAdam Grant9:20

      Yeah, I am too. Because otherwise we wouldn't have you setting an example that the whole world needs to learn from and follow. So how did you get to know Jeff? You must have known who he was before, since he'd been an influential neo-Nazi leader for a long time.

   2. DDDaryl Davis9:36

      I've known Jeff personally since about 2016, but I knew of him 20 years ago. I, I was watching a TV talk show, I think it was Rolanda, and he was just a teenager back then, I believe. I'm like, "You know, what are these guys talking about? What, what is wrong with these people?" And I never dreamed that I would be meeting him, but, um, I did. And, uh, today he is my brother. We work hand-in-hand all around the country, sometimes separately, sometimes together, as we are right now.

   3. AGAdam Grant10:05

      Wow. Okay, I have an endless number of questions for you both. Jeff, let's start with you because it's hard to even imagine somebody traveling the distance that you have traveled. So I know you were involved with some pretty hateful groups. How old were you when that began?

7. 10:27 – 11:45

   Jeff’s path into neo-Nazism: identity, revisionism, and leadership

   1. JSJeff Schoep10:27

      It came from a, a family connection. Uh, my grandfather fought in Hitler's army during the war. My great uncles fought as well. And, and, uh, one of my uncles was, um, captured at Stalingrad. My grandfather was in a POW camp, and my other great uncle was, uh, wounded in the, um, Ardennes. It was that historical and family connection, but I have to say that with the caveat that it wasn't my family that propagandized me or got me into this. Um, in fact, they actively tried to discourage that. So, um, I sought out the movement on my own and, and, uh, got involved. Um, joined up at about 18.

   2. AGAdam Grant11:02

      Wow. And, uh, I mean, this... It's just so hard for me to imagine. Like, didn't, didn't you grow up understanding that Nazis were evil?

   3. JSJeff Schoep11:12

      Well, I mean, they are. That's, that's the truth. But, um, you know, the thing is, is, is, uh, I was looking at it through a different lens. Um, I was of the mindset that the, the victors wrote the history and, and, uh, that my people could never do something like the Holocaust or, or anything like that. So I became a Holocaust revisionist and, and I didn't believe in, in, uh, in that narrative. Like, I didn't believe the, the true facts, and I believed the set of so-called facts that fit my narrative. But, um, yeah, so it's pretty dark.

   4. AGAdam Grant11:41

      Take us to 2016. What were your views when you met Daryl?

8. 11:45 – 13:27

   The first conversation: fist on the table, and Davis refuses to escalate

   1. JSJeff Schoep11:45

      So in 2016, I was the head of the National Socialist Movement, which was, at the time, was the largest lot- uh, largest neo-Nazi organization in the country. And, um, I had gotten contacted by a filmmaker and they said, "You know, hey, would you come and participate in this film?" And I would participate in all the films that I could participate in because it was a chance to spread the propaganda of the movement. I didn't know that I was meeting with Daryl Davis. I knew who Daryl Davis was because he was getting people out of these movements. He's pulling people out of these groups. So we knew who he was. He's the enemy, right? The, the- ... uh, producer didn't tell me. They didn't say Daryl Davis, or if they did, I didn't, it didn't register for me. So we come into the restaurant, we sit down, we're getting along, and, um, we start talking about music. I was a singer in a long-haired rock and roll band in my early years. And then it, then it clicked in my head, "Hey, you're the commander of the National Socialist movement, and you're getting along with this guy, uh, too well." And it clicked right at that moment, "I know who this guy is. He's somebody that gets people out of these groups." So I'm thinking, "This isn't, this isn't gonna look good on film." So I pound my fist on the table and I said, "You know what, Daryl? I'll fight to the last bullet for my people." And you would think in a normal scenario like that, the other side, when you try to escalate, they escalate back. Daryl doesn't escalate. He just goes, "Hmm," and just continues the conversation. Like I didn't raise my voice, like I didn't get aggressive or anything.

   2. DDDaryl Davis13:10

      We were getting along too well. I mean, we were laughing and joking about different things, and then all of a sudden [laughs] , just like you said, out of the blue, he pounded his fists on the table and said, "I will fight to the last bullet for my people." I'm like, "Hmm, okay." So I just continued talking to him, you know?

9. 13:27 – 14:51

   The question that cracked the ideology: humanization and cognitive collapse

   1. JSJeff Schoep13:27

      And now I'm just like, "What is up with this guy? Why is he not reacting? What is going on here? This is, something strange is happening here." So now I'm really tuned in, I'm trying to figure him out, and, um, Daryl says to me, he says, uh, you know, "Can I tell you why, why I do the work that I do?" And of course, conversations are reciprocal, and he was respectful to me, so I'm being respectful to him, despite our ideological differences. And he, Daryl shared with me about how hate and racism affected him growing up when he's in the Boy Scouts and how he was targeted by white adults, and they were throwing rocks at him. And it didn't sit right for me. Like it, it bothered me. Like if this ideology that I stand for is causing that kind of pain to somebody, like how is that, how is that noble? How is this, this great cause that I, that I think it is, how is that true? And Daryl says, "You know, how could someone hate me when they don't even know me?" And that hit like a, like a ton of bricks, you know? And I'd like to say right at that moment, everything changed. My whole life changed. It did on the inside, but it, it hadn't, it hadn't... It took time. It took time. It's a process because that's something, I'd been involved in this stuff for a lifetime. It was 27 years total.

   2. AGAdam Grant14:47

      This is unbelievable. Okay, Daryl, I have, I have to hear your, your view of this.

10. 14:51 – 15:58

    After Charlottesville: leaving the movement and rebuilding trust

    1. DDDaryl Davis14:51

       When we finished the interview, uh, the, the guys, the camera people, you know, were wrapping up, and I pulled Jeff aside and just, you know, just talked to him one-on-one, you know, man-to-man, and, you know, just shared a few things with him. And, uh, that was it. And then, you know, he, he g- he gave me his phone number and, uh, I gave him mine. And then the next year, uh, Charlottesville happened with the, uh, white supremacist rally there, and J- Jeff, uh, had participated in the rally. And a, I guess a while after that, it may have been that year, uh, he kind of went under the radar. And, uh, and then a little while later, I had heard that he had left the movement. And so I reached out to him. I called him on the phone, and we talked for a good, I don't know, half an hour, 40 minutes. And, uh, I said, "You know, we gotta figure out, you know, what we can do together." He said, "Well, let me know. I, you know, I'm, I'm game. You know, I, I really appreciate, you know, your calling me, and I really, I really, you know, respected you back then at that, uh, Chris's, uh, Hot Dog Grill. You know, you took me aside, talked to me man-to-man." Anyway, you know, he, he bonded with me on the phone.

11. 15:58 – 26:10

    Motivational interviewing in practice: planting seeds, not ‘converting’

    1. AGAdam Grant15:58

       Daryl, you go into these conversations with white supremacists initially to learn from them, having no idea that your curiosity is going to be a catalyst for them changing their views and, you know, in, in many cases, abandoning their hate. Let's start with the question: How can you hate me when you don't even know me? Jeff, for you, it was a life-changing question. Why did that question get through to you when other efforts hadn't?

    2. JSJeff Schoep16:24

       You know, my family and everybody had tried to reach me for years and years and years, and I wasn't hearing it. When you're entrenched in it, you think you're doing this noble thing. So when someone tells you you're wrong, you're hateful, you're, you're off, you automatically push back. It's just human nature. That's what we do. That's what most all of us do. Daryl didn't do that. In seeing, when he shared that deeply personal story, that was a humanistic connection. He showed me his humanity at that point, and when you dehumanize another human being, you lose your humanity in that process. And I had been chief dehumanizer for many, many, many years. So when Daryl showed me his humanity, it cracked open like this window or cracked open this door that hadn't been cracked open in a really, really long time. So instead of being immersed in this ideology and this thought that I'm doing this good and noble thing, here I'm sitting across from somebody that's not telling me that I'm wrong. He showed me how wrong that I was, and all of a sudden, this ideology starts collapsing because how can it be good and noble and, and honorable and just if it's doing that to a child? And if it did that to Daryl, how many other people is it doing it to? And that's where I was talking about compartmentalizing it. You try to set it aside and go, "Okay, that was just one incident." And I would do that sort of thing psychologically whenever there was mass shootings, whenever there was somebody that had done a, a terrible crime that was, um, affiliated with the ideology, things, things of that nature. You always try to say, "Well, that was a crazy person Never the ideology, always the individual. You say, "Well, that person had some screws loose. There was something wrong with them." But when it happens again and again and again and again and again, you have to at some point start evaluating and going, "You know what? Maybe it is the ideology." But you see Daryl's approach and why it works, and it's the same approach we use at, uh, I, I, uh, run a nonprofit called Beyond Barriers, and it helps get people out of extremist groups. That can be far right, far left, cults, gangs, et cetera. It's not to tell the person they're wrong. It's, but to show them how they're wrong. And I don't wanna speak for Daryl, but I'm sure, I'm sure he'll, uh, probably concur on this, too. Like, when people say, you know, that we're converting people, we want them to feel like they've done it themselves. They have to feel like they've done it themselves. Because if they say, "Well, Daryl Davis made me change," or, "Jeff Schoep made me change," or, "My wife or my husband made me change," you know, or something in that nature, that's not real change. That's, that's a, that's a forced change. Real change has to come from the heart and from the mind, so the person, the individual has to do it themself.

    3. AGAdam Grant18:53

       I, I think you're right. I don't think that, that you guys are changing anybody's minds, but I think that you're planting seeds that then people go, go and water. And I think Daryl, when I think about what you do, [laughs] the, the magic of Daryl Davis, if I had to break it down, I would say you're a master at motivational interviewing, where in psychology we would say, you know, if somebody is defensive or resistant to change, the worst thing to do is to directly tell them to change or attack their position. The best thing to do is to get really curious and start to interview them, and say, "Hey, I'd love to understand your attitudes a little better." Uh, and then ask them questions like, "How can you hate me when you don't even know me?" That bypass their defensiveness, that lead them to reflect genuinely and start to wonder, "Yeah, what... I, I don't know this man. Why do I hate him?" And then realize that their attitudes are more complex than th- than they might have thought. Uh, realize maybe that they don't have good reasons to hold the views that they hold, and then start to find their own reasons for change. Okay, Daryl, tell me what you think about the, the psychology of motivational interviewing.

    4. DDDaryl Davis20:09

       No, I mean-

    5. AGAdam Grant20:09

       Is that what you are?

    6. DDDaryl Davis20:10

       Yes, that's exactly what I do. We don't convert people. You know, when you see my name in, in the, uh, media, it'll say, you know, "Black musician converts to 200 white supremacists or KKK people," whatever. No, I did not even convert one of them. Yes, I am the impetus for over 200 to convert themselves, and you've heard the expression, Adam, uh, "One's perception is one's reality," and that is so indeed true. Whatever somebody perceives is their reality. Even if it's not real, it's their reality. You cannot change anybody's reality, and if you try to change their reality, you're gonna get pushback. You're gonna get resistance. So if you want to affect change on somebody's reality, don't... It's counterintuitive, but don't attack their reality. Offer them a better perception or perceptions, plural. And if they resonate with one of your pers- uh, perspectives or perceptions, you have planted the seed, and it ruminates in their mind if it causes a cognitive dissonance, and they try to find out why. And the next thing you know, it's the introspection that does, "Oh, you know what? Maybe I better change my path." And with Jeff Schoep here, it's very important to note, you know, this man was a commander of this organization for 25 years. He built it into the largest neo-Nazi organization in the country. He is responsible for recruiting a large number of people. So in that position, right, people looked up to him. You know, when he got out, I had people I didn't even know, neo-Nazis, emailing me asking me, "Is, is this true? Did Jeff really leave?" And some of them, you know, they want to leave, too, but they came through me, and I sent them to Jeff, right? Now, Jeff as, as a commander, he brought a lot of people in. He has to sit around and debate because people looked up to this guy. You know, this was their commander. They joined this organization to serve him, right? And now he's coming and saying, "Hey, folks, you know, I was wrong." How is he gonna look in their eyes now? You know, d- does he wanna lose that throne of power, that seat of power? That took a lot of strength. That took... Now, that is the definition of courage, not curiosity. That's courage to come out and say, "Hey, I was wrong," you know? Um, "This i- this is not right."

    7. AGAdam Grant22:41

       Well, I, I'm gonna just disagree with your premise there. I'm gonna say I think you're both courageous. I think that, Jeff, in your case, you know, you had something to gain and something to lose by leaving the movement, as far as I can tell. Uh, Daryl, you, you have nothing to gain through the work that you do other than making the world a better place.

    8. DDDaryl Davis23:01

       Well, I gained a lot of friends, man. Jeff is my brother. I, uh, hey, I'm an only child. Now I got a brother.

    9. AGAdam Grant23:06

       Y- I mean, he wouldn't have even made my top thousand list of people I want as a possible brother. You're, you're-

    10. DDDaryl Davis23:11

        But he does now.

    11. AGAdam Grant23:12

        Okay, so I... You used a key word, cognitive dissonance. I, I'm so glad you brought this up because it struck me that now with both of you planting seeds to try to help people find reasons to change, the way that you do it is very different, and it seems to me that your, your identities, um, have something to do with that. Daryl, the fact that you approach a white supremacist as a Black man, they have a pleasant, respectful conversation with you. They discover that you're kind, you're intelligent. You're immediately shattering some of their stereotypes, and so the dissonance is almost inherent to the interaction. Jeff, in your case, it seems to me that the cognitive dissonance is more around saying, "I used to share your beliefs." I used to think I was in the right, but actually I was wrong and I've seen the light. And now they have to confront the question of, is it possible that [laughs] that the current version of Jeff is right and the old version was wrong? I'd love to hear the two of you riff on that a little bit and how you each think about using dissonance.

    12. JSJeff Schoep24:12

        I think, you know, um, a- as Daryl had mentioned as well is, is you know, we don't tell people that they're wrong, is we really try to show them how, how that is. So this is about seed planting. This is about, you know, it's not about... If you go into these situations and expect somebody to do a full, uh, 360-degree turn in a, in a snap of a fingers, that is almost u- unheard of. I, I mean, I have a couple of, a couple of scenarios that I can think of throughout my to- whole lifetime where th- things have happened that quick, but the vast majority, like the hundreds of people that we know that have left, um, it's a process. It takes time. So we have to, you know, um, curiosity is a big part of it. Let me ask questions. I know when I first got out, they automatically think you flip to the other extreme. So I'm getting all these emails going, you know, "What's the deal?" You know, "Do, do you really leave the movement? Are you Antifa now? Are you a communist now?" And I'm think- I, I'm stressing out at this point. I'm going, "Why are everybody think I'm Antifa? Why do they think I'm a communist? What am I saying that's making them think that?" You know? And I'm getting really stressed about it. And I start thinking, you know, "No, don't get angry. Answer them." Say, "No, I'm not Antifa. I'm not a communist. Why do you think that?" You know? And just start the conversation. And this is, this is exactly what Daryl does, is not get angry, but try to understand them. So a lot of times, uh, what I found in those conversations with people that originally c- c- came at me kinda hard, you know, like, kind of disrespectful, is, "Wow, so I could leave the movement and still be conservative or still be somewhere over here on the right, just not be a racist?" And you're like, "Yes, that would be great." [laughs] You know? Or, "You can be on the left, just don't go way out to the extreme. It doesn't matter where you land, just don't be on those extremes. Don't hate people." And they're just like, "Wow, that's pretty cool." So they, when they have those questions, if they're reaching out in the first place, they, there's probably some little, uh, voice in the back of their head going, "You know, maybe this isn't the right path that I'm on." And, and they're starting to kinda guess those things.

12. 26:10 – 29:47

    Analogies that disarm: the ‘latent gene’ story and flipping the logic

    1. DDDaryl Davis26:10

       Let me give you an example of, of exactly what Jeff's talking about. So one time I had this, uh, Klan leader in my car. He was a district leader. And he's in the passenger seat. I'm driving. He's over here. And somehow we got on the topic of crime, and he used that fi- that figure of authority called they. You know, they say. You know, we never know who they is. You know, they say all Black people are born with a gene that makes them violent. That's what he's telling me. And I, s- I said, "Well, what do you mean?" He said, "Well, who's doing all the drive-bys and carjackings in Southeast?" He was referring to Southeast Washington, DC, which is predominantly Black and high crime-ridden. I said, "Okay." I said, "It's Black people." I said, "But that's what lives there. You're not considering the demographics. Who's doing all the, all the crime up in Bangor, Maine? White people, 'cause that's what lives there." He goes, "No, no, no. That has nothing to do with it. You know, you all ha- have this gene. You know, they, they, they say Black people are born with..." So that's his reality. So, you know, my gene almost came out. [laughs] But, uh, but I-

    2. AGAdam Grant27:10

       [laughs]

    3. DDDaryl Davis27:11

       But, yeah, I, I maintained my calm. G- And I realized, you know, this guy was so... That, that was his reality. So w- how can I, you know, tell him something that's gonna make him think? I can't give him any thesis from some, you know, uh, psychologist or psychiatrist or, or some other person who studies this. Uh, he, A, he, he's not gonna know the person and he's not gonna read the book or whatever. So I had to go to where he was. And so I said, "Look, man, I'm as Black as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a carjacking or a drive-by. How do you explain that?" And he, he, he didn't even think about it. He answered me like that. He said, "Your gene is latent. It hasn't come out yet."

    4. AGAdam Grant27:55

       [laughs]

    5. DDDaryl Davis27:56

       Right? You know, how do you even bite into that? So I, I was speechless, just driving along. He's over here all smug like, "Mm, you got nothing to say." I had to think about it. So I used his figure of authority, they. I said, "Well, you know, they say all white people have a gene that makes them a serial killer." He says, "What are you talking about?" I said, "Name me three Black serial killers." He couldn't do it.

    6. AGAdam Grant28:22

       [laughs]

    7. DDDaryl Davis28:23

       I said, "Just name me, just name me one." He couldn't do it. I said, "Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dahmer, Henry Lee Lucas, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, David Berkowitz, Son of Sam, Albert DeSalvo, The Boston Strangler," on and on and on. I said, "Son, they're all white. You are a serial killer." He said, "Daryl, I've never killed anybody." I said, "Your gene is latent. It hasn't come out yet."

    8. AGAdam Grant28:46

       [laughs]

    9. DDDaryl Davis28:46

       He goes, "Well, that's stupid." I said, "Well, duh." I said, "You're right. It is stupid, but it's no more stupid m- for me to say that about you than what you said about me." And he got very quiet, but I could almost hear the wheels in his brain spinning. Bzz. And then he changed the subject. But within four to five months, he quit the Ku Klux Klan based on that conversation, and his robe and hood was the first robe and hood I ever got.

    10. AGAdam Grant29:13

        I love that story.

    11. DDDaryl Davis29:13

        So I mean, it was a stupid analogy, but that's where I had to go, okay? So I didn't attack his reality. I gave him another perception. So that caused the cognitive dissonance, especially when the, when, when the shoe was on the other foot, [laughs] so to speak.

    12. AGAdam Grant29:28

        Yes, it did. It did. I mean, that, that is a brilliant and beautiful example of analogical reasoning. Instead of just attacking his reasoning head-on, you give him an adjacent case and say, "Well, you know, if that logic holds, what happens when we put the shoe on the other foot?" And all of a sudden he doesn't like the logic anymore.

13. 29:47 – 35:22

    Core values, boundaries, and keeping conversations alive

    1. DDDaryl Davis29:47

       One thing I've learned, Adam, in, in my travels is this: every human being wants these five core values in their lives. Everyone wants to be loved Everyone wants to be respected. We all wanna be treated fairly and truthfully. We all wanna be heard. We want the same things for our family as anybody else wants for their family. And if we can learn to apply those five core values or any of those five values when we find ourselves in an adversarial situation... It doesn't even have to be about race. It could be about anything. Abortion, nuclear weapons, Gaza and Israel, Russia and Ukraine. Y- you name it, there are a lot of hot topics out there. You're on one side, somebody else is on the other side. If we can learn to apply those five core values when we find ourselves in a, in an adversarial situation or in a culture or society in which we are uncomfortable or unfamiliar, I will guarantee that your navigation of that situation, that culture, that society will be much more smooth, much more positive, and much more productive.

    2. AGAdam Grant30:51

       It almost sounds too easy. [laughs] And I know, I know this is, you know, often months or years of conversation, but I'd love to push the limits of it a little bit. Are there times when you haven't been able to get through to people? Are there kinds of people that you cannot reach?

    3. DDDaryl Davis31:08

       Yes. There are gonna be people on all sides, regardless of the color of their skin, who will go to their grave being hateful, violent, and racist or antisemitic, what have you. I don't give up on those people, 'cause I've seen some of them, some of them come back to me and apologize. I have put some of them in the hospital when they put their hands on me. I've had to fight. You know, violence is not my thing that I go to first, but if, if, if I feel under physical attack, you know, I'm not gonna sit there and take it. I've put people in the hospital, I've put people in jail, and some of those people have come back to me and apologized and have later changed. Not all of them. Some of them have died and gone to their grave feeling that way, and that's fine. I don't give up on them. I move them down my list of priorities.

    4. AGAdam Grant31:54

       I, I love the idea of moving them down your priority list, and it's, it's remarkable to me that you don't give up on them. I, I cannot imagine being as forgiving as you are. And yet that's part of what I think opens the door for some people to change, is the fact that you're, you're not hitting them back and you're not judging them as harshly as they judge you.

    5. DDDaryl Davis32:16

       Okay, so let's understand respect. I, I will sit there and listen to somebody spew all their white supremacist stuff. Um, I don't respect what they are saying, but I respect their right to say it. It's my choice whether I want to believe it or not or whether I want to comply with it or not. And I expect them to respect my right to give my rebuttal if I have a rebuttal which may not agree with them, but I want them to hear what I have to say. So why should I expect them to hear what I have to say if I refuse to hear their premise?

    6. AGAdam Grant32:52

       That, I mean, that makes so much sense. If, [laughs] if, if you want people to listen to you, you have to be willing to listen to them. If they don't feel understood, they're not gonna wanna understand you.

    7. DDDaryl Davis33:03

       Precisely.

    8. AGAdam Grant33:03

       All right. I wanna go to a lightning round. Goal of this round is to get each of you to answer in one sentence. Jeff, you can start with question one, which is, what is the worst advice that people give for talking to people who disagree with you?

    9. JSJeff Schoep33:18

       To argue. To escalate.

    10. AGAdam Grant33:21

        Boom. Daryl?

    11. DDDaryl Davis33:22

        The worst advice is to not listen, to, to just shut them out and ignore them. You know, if you don't like something, ignore it. Uh, there are things that we can ignore, like a headache or a bellyache, 'cause it'll go away. No. Uh, antisemitism, racism, discrimination is a cancer. If you ignore it, it metastasizes and spreads, and then you go away. So let's not ignore it. Let's address it. Let's not get furious. Let's get curious.

    12. AGAdam Grant33:46

        Daryl, when you were talking about how y- [laughs] your, your latent gene almost came out.

    13. DDDaryl Davis33:51

        [laughs]

    14. AGAdam Grant33:53

        We, we all have those moments where, you know, we're trying to be curious and, you know, somebody just pushes our buttons or, you know, trips one of our triggers and we lose our cool. How do you avoid that?

    15. DDDaryl Davis34:06

        Well, in my case, I, I realize, you know, I got myself into this. You know, I cannot go to a Klan rally and not expect to hear the N-word, okay? It's all over the damn place. So I know that going in. So if, if I'm gonna be triggered by it, um, then don't go.

    16. AGAdam Grant34:24

        Jeff, what about you?

    17. JSJeff Schoep34:25

        My take on that would be basically if you're letting someone else get under your skin and you're getting angry, you're, you're giving away your power to them. You're empowering them by doing that. So if I'm letting this person get me angry, that, that costs energy. That's giving them my energy. And if, if you can look at it like that or put it in that perspective, it's, it's very helpful, I think.

    18. AGAdam Grant34:44

        Okay, one more lightning round question. You get to organize a dinner party, and the people you invite are the people whose minds you would most love to change. Who are you inviting to dinner?

    19. DDDaryl Davis34:55

        Jeff?

    20. JSJeff Schoep34:56

        Oh, boy. This is tough. Um, I think I would invite the heads of the, of the major political parties in the United States because there's so much divisiveness and division right now, um, there. I think I would try to invite them to all get, get on board and, and try to, uh, help the country together and not be quite so partisan or, or hateful to one another. I think that would be my answer.

    21. DDDaryl Davis35:19

        I, I concur with, uh, Jeff, absolutely.

14. 35:22 – 40:04

    Practical closing guidance: ‘find your line’ and ‘find your question’

    1. AGAdam Grant35:22

       Incredible. All right. Uh, last question for the two of you. One of the things that, that's striking to me as I reflect on this conversation is in psychology we know that change requires two basic ingredients. One is ability, the other is motivation. And I think the skill part is much easier than the will part. And you two have given many people the will to change, or at least helped them find their own will to change. We have a lot of listeners who are struggling with that, and I'd love to just ask each of you for your closing advice. Uh, for anybody who's listening who may want to start changing, where should they begin? And/or if they've got somebody in their life that they wanna help change, what else would you advise that we haven't already covered?

    2. JSJeff Schoep36:10

       For, like, a family member or someone else that's concerned about somebody, don't slam the door on that person 100%. You know, you can say, "Hey, I disagree with you. I, but I still love you." You know, or, "I, I don't agree with what you're doing and I, I can't have you over, but know that I still love you. I'm still here for you." Doing that gives them an, a, a, gives the individual an opportunity to know that there's a door or window open for them, 'cause I tell you what, when you get involved in these groups and/or gangs, cults, far right, far left, um, religious extremism, whatever you, whatever type of group that is, it is so isolating. It is very isolating, and either you cut off everybody that's outside of your circle or bubble, or they cut you off. So a lot of times you don't have that support system, and that was, that was, um, that's a really difficult thing.

    3. DDDaryl Davis36:56

       Find your line. And what do I mean by find your line? Jeff and I are on the front lines, okay? We're out there with these people, all right, so to speak. Um, some people, they, they can't do that. They cannot bring themselves to sit down with a, with a KKK member or, or a neo-Nazi. "I, I can't sit with those people. I'm afraid of them," or, "I'm afraid I might punch them out. They, they, they just irritate me," or whatever. Got it. You don't belong on the front line. All right? Maybe you can be on the back line. Maybe you can be on the sideline. Maybe you can be online. Find the line where you most feel comfortable, all right? And participate. And because we all have to work together, there's no line that you can be on that is any more important than any other line. We all have to work together. Put all these lines together, and that's how we create a great society.

    4. AGAdam Grant37:49

       Daryl, you said, "Find your line," and I think a great lesson from the impact you've had is also find your question. The one thing you can ask people, your go-to question that opens them up. So mine is, what evidence would change your mind? I find that works really well for me as a social scientist. Daryl, yours is, how can you hate me when you don't even know me? And I think that everybody is in a position to find a question they can ask that opens people up instead of shutting them down.

    5. DDDaryl Davis38:20

       We're coming up on Thanksgiving, and for, for years, you know, uh, I've been hearing people say, "I'm not going to Thanksgiving with my family 'cause my sister voted for so and so, and I voted for this one." You know? People, families are being torn apart over politics. When two adversaries are talking, they're not fighting. They're talking. They may be disagreeing. They may even be getting a little loud, but at least they're talking. It's when the conversation ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So you wanna keep the conversation going, and remember that a missed opportunity for conversation is a missed opportunity for reconciliation. Let's not be against the person, because that person learned that. Let's help that person. Let's h- but let's be against the ideology behind it.

    6. AGAdam Grant39:12

       Daryl, you are a national treasure. Jeff, you're a former terrible person working to become a better one. No, I, I really appreciate the work that you're both doing to help people become more decent. Thank you.

    7. DDDaryl Davis39:27

       Well, see, you are, you are one of the people who are, who are online. That's your line. Because, you know, you're helping to promote our message of reconciliation and peace, and we really appreciate that, Adam, very, very much.

    8. JSJeff Schoep39:38

       We do. Thank you.

    9. DDDaryl Davis39:39

       For, for your having us on.

    10. AGAdam Grant39:41

        It's, it's an honor to have a chance to help share your message.

    11. DDDaryl Davis39:43

        Thank you.

    12. JSJeff Schoep39:44

        Thank you, Adam. [outro music]

Episode duration: 40:05