How to sustain a vibe with Olympic champions Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir

1. 0:00 – 0:29

   Why long partnerships must evolve (Tessa’s opening reflection)

   1. TVTessa Virtue0:00

      When I look back now at our entire partnership, what we allowed for was this room to recalibrate, this room to change, and then come back together and get to know that version of one another and get to know our partnership as, you know, we were children and teens and adults and, you know, mature skaters. There needed to be room for evolution within that. We couldn't operate within this one set of standard rules and expect that to work for two decades.

   2. AGAdam Grant0:24

      [upbeat music]

2. 0:29 – 1:45

   Warm-up banter: coffee, energy, and nerves

   1. AGAdam Grant0:29

      Hi, Tessa. Hi, Scott.

   2. TVTessa Virtue0:30

      Hi, Adam.

   3. SMScott Moir0:30

      How are you?

   4. AGAdam Grant0:31

      Good. How are you both?

   5. SMScott Moir0:32

      We're very excited.

   6. AGAdam Grant0:33

      Are you?

   7. TVTessa Virtue0:34

      Yeah, it's such a treat to be on, on with you.

   8. AGAdam Grant0:36

      Well, that remains to be seen.

   9. SMScott Moir0:38

      [laughs] Yeah. Let's see how this hour goes.

   10. AGAdam Grant0:40

       I'm honored to have you. And Tessa, did you know when you invited me onto your show that I was just gonna reverse this and give you a bait and switch and say, "Actually, come on my show"?

   11. TVTessa Virtue0:49

       [laughs] I love it. Well, leave it to you to always have some creative thinking in mind. I was blown away by your genuine enthusiasm. I was just excited. I would have brought coffee to this interview if it meant getting a chance to connect. [laughs]

   12. AGAdam Grant1:01

       You would have been drinking it by yourself then.

   13. TVTessa Virtue1:03

       Oh, you're not a coffee guy?

   14. AGAdam Grant1:04

       I've never drank coffee.

   15. TVTessa Virtue1:06

       Wow.

   16. SMScott Moir1:06

       Really?

   17. AGAdam Grant1:07

       Is that weird?

   18. TVTessa Virtue1:07

       Well, I, like, I go to bed at night dreaming-

   19. AGAdam Grant1:10

       [laughs]

   20. TVTessa Virtue1:10

       ... about coffee. Yeah. [laughs] I just, uh-

   21. SMScott Moir1:11

       Yeah, I'd still be in bed if I didn't, if there wasn't coffee waiting. So yeah, I think it's a little weird for us. [laughs]

   22. TVTessa Virtue1:17

       Yeah, it brings me, like, extraordinary joy.

   23. AGAdam Grant1:20

       Coffee, I, I can't imagine f- needing it. Like, man, the energy is just there.

   24. TVTessa Virtue1:25

       Yeah.

   25. SMScott Moir1:25

       And you can tell in your eyes you have that energy.

   26. TVTessa Virtue1:27

       Yeah. For sure.

   27. AGAdam Grant1:27

       Can you?

   28. SMScott Moir1:28

       Yeah, just, like, the way you sit and the way you, like, your energy as you talk. Absolutely.

   29. AGAdam Grant1:32

       Wow.

   30. SMScott Moir1:33

       You don't need coffee. [laughs]
3. 1:45 – 4:16

   Craving pressure after retirement: butterflies as a growth signal

   1. TVTessa Virtue1:45

      I feel like I'm in a stage where I'm really craving it. Like, there was a, a period of time after the Olympics when I would have done anything to feel that, like, jolt of adrenaline, like, the tingly in my palms. And I remember trying to, you know, get on stage in front of a lot of people and grab a mic, and I just kinda wouldn't feel much. I would do live TV and see the light go on and really not feel any of that excitement. And so it took some time to sort of get a taste of that compared to what we would have felt on, on the Olympic stage. And now I'm at a stage where I want, I wanna be scared. I want the pressure. I wanna try new things. I really wanna be out of my comfort zone. So I feel like I'm, I'm getting nervous almost every day now, which is kind of refreshing. How about you, Scott?

   2. SMScott Moir2:26

      Oh, I think for me, I, I'm still kinda blown away that I don't recognize that I'm nervous. So I'd be very grumpy in the afternoon before a skate or a show, and then, like, it's just my coping mechanism, and then I would be ready for the event. But it still shocks me that I haven't, like, kinda caught onto that trend. [laughs]

   3. AGAdam Grant2:43

      I wanna make sure I'm hearing you correctly, Tessa. You're saying you crave the butterflies?

   4. TVTessa Virtue2:48

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   5. AGAdam Grant2:50

      'Cause that's, that's unusual. I think [laughs] when I hear that, I think, oh, you're craving the opportunity to have something to look forward to, and it's the challenge, it's the performance. But you said you actually miss the feeling.

   6. TVTessa Virtue3:03

      Yes, and it's everything I was so eager to get away from when we retired. I remember just thinking, if I have a job that doesn't require me to drive to the arena at 6:00 in the morning and do double run-throughs [laughs] to the point of feeling like pure, just, like, exhaustion and lungs burning, lactic acid build-up, like, all of the things, if I don't have to feel that, I will be happy. And I really enjoyed the lack of pressure for a long time post-retirement, and now I'm just kind of saying, like, bring it on. I've been missing the very notion and the existence of pressure in my life because it's the thing that has unlocked performance in the past. And so I think I'm longing for growth and evolution and change and challenge. Uh, so yeah, physically I'm also seeking those feelings. Is that crazy?

   7. SMScott Moir3:52

      Yes. [laughs]

   8. AGAdam Grant3:54

      [laughs] Yes. Scott, you never wanna feel it again.

   9. SMScott Moir3:57

      No, I, I mean, I understand in, in a way, but maybe I'm not quite there yet. But I, I, I do still feel that when I play, like, like, beer league sports. It's funny, you know? Like, I play baseball. I never played, so I'm really bad at it. So, like, I, I get those nerves, and maybe that kinda fulfills that desire.

4. 4:16 – 5:16

   Meeting at 6 and partnering at 7: how the ‘vibe’ began

   1. AGAdam Grant4:16

      Okay, so I wanna talk to the two of you about your vibe. And I've, I've so many things I'm curious about.

   2. SMScott Moir4:23

      [laughs]

   3. AGAdam Grant4:23

      Maybe the place to start is when you first met, how did you gauge whether this was gonna be the right pairing?

   4. SMScott Moir4:30

      About 10 years after. [laughs]

   5. TVTessa Virtue4:34

      [laughs]

   6. AGAdam Grant4:34

      [laughs]

   7. SMScott Moir4:35

      Right? I don't know. Like, when did we actually-

   8. TVTessa Virtue4:37

      Yeah, I mean-

   9. AGAdam Grant4:37

      When did you meet?

   10. TVTessa Virtue4:38

       I was six years old when I met Scott, and we started skating together when I was seven, so Scott was nine. Anyone, anyone that says we showed signs of potential when we were just seven and nine is completely lying. When did we know that there was something? I mean, I, I think the vibe initially was pure excitement for two things. One, to compete, and two, to dance. And the idea that this magical sport of ice dance could merge those worlds of art and athleticism, even then, if we weren't totally clued into the different facets of the sport, there was something about it we loved, and there was something that made it so much more fun to do together.

5. 5:16 – 7:18

   Rivalry and motivation: Scott’s early competitiveness and learning from Tessa

   1. SMScott Moir5:16

      I think for me, there's two distinct memories. You know, I was a boy in figure skating, so you're really, uh, one in a million, it feels like, in these little skating clubs. And then here comes this, this girl that showed up, and she jumps higher than me, skates faster than me. Um, so our, the beginning of our partnership for me was really about competition. I didn't like that. I didn't like that she could do all these things. I remember being in a group lesson with her, and she's landing her Axel and she's doing all these things, and I was like, "What the hell?" And that kind of pushed me to a s- a part in figure skating where the first time I can remember actually trying to be better, instead of just having to be there because both of my older brothers skated and my mom and dad didn't wanna hire a babysitter. And the second part I think would be how Tessa always challenged me I think it is really why I fell in love with figure skating. She was always more mature than her age. Um, she always was a very sophisticated communicator. Most of what I learned in my coaching, I learned from Tess. And then th- those parts, you know, th- constantly being challenged like that, I just really craved and loved, and, uh, that's when I knew that there was something special in our partnership.

   2. AGAdam Grant6:25

      Wow. Okay, wait, so I have to know more about the initial competition between the two of you.

   3. SMScott Moir6:29

      [laughs]

   4. AGAdam Grant6:29

      Scott, from what you just said, I get the sense that it was asymmetric, that you were, you were envying Tessa and you were a little threatened by her. But Tessa, you didn't feel that in return.

   5. SMScott Moir6:38

      Surprise, surprise.

   6. AGAdam Grant6:39

      [laughs]

   7. SMScott Moir6:42

      [laughs]

   8. TVTessa Virtue6:42

      I remember thinking, I mean, Scott was sort of the playful, curious bad boy of the arena. [laughs] Like, he was always ... He would pull-

   9. SMScott Moir6:52

      All still present tense things.

   10. TVTessa Virtue6:53

       [laughs]

   11. AGAdam Grant6:54

       [laughs]

   12. TVTessa Virtue6:55

       Like, for example, he would pull the fire alarm to get out of doing ballet class. He, you know, would play pranks on, on the girls. He, he was just that, like, funny character. And so I don't remember the competition between the two of us, but I do remember thinking that it was so fun to do the compulsory dances together, for example, when we were just little.

   13. AGAdam Grant7:15

       So when, when did you start to think seriously about being partners?

6. 7:18 – 10:36

   An arranged partnership and the big teenage commitment

   1. SMScott Moir7:18

      Well, we were kind of put together. It was an arranged partnership, so it's pretty wild, uh, because we came up together from a small skating club. We lived 15 minutes apart from each other. So it's, it's just circumstance, uh, so much of it. Tessa showed up, and her, her grandmother was, like, talking to my aunt. And they knew that they wanted me to ice dance, and here came this little dancer, gymnast, super athlete into the rink. And it wasn't long before they were like, "Oh, there's Scott's skating partner." Uh, we were just, uh, following what our coach thought would be, like Tessa said, cute. But a- after a while, um, when we started to skate together, there was a magic that happened, and I think then we fell in love with ice dance. I'm not so sure that I was in love with the sport of figure skating before Tess. Actually, I can confidently say that that didn't exist. But then as we started to skate together and dance together, that's when, um, we really started to, to have this partnership. But I mean, it happened at six and eight, and those first five, six years we are a bit more passengers. Wouldn't you say, Tess?

   2. TVTessa Virtue8:19

      Yeah, I think you're right. We decided to move away from home when I was 13 and Scott was 15. So I would say that was a pivotal moment of a real decision to make a choice. And, and at the time, I think we th- you know, it was a, it was a choice. I can look back now and think we were making some serious sacrifices, living away from home. I skipped grade eight. We missed prom and parties and sleepovers and, and a lot of what makes up an ordinary, you know, high school experience. We were, we were at the rink early, missing parts of school, and that's when we became not only partners, but also family. I think we needed to support one another in, in such a specific way during that kind of fragile time of our lives. And it's also the time when I really think we went from, you know, not just Tessa and Scott, but actually this entity of us. And I remember pretty clearly in those days making decisions, not thinking through what I needed or what he needed, but actually what we required. You know, what, what, what was required of us to achieve a common goal. And so this kind of shared alignment was the driving force of every- everything in our lives.

   3. AGAdam Grant9:30

      It's so interesting how, like, the, the, even just as you narrate the arc of, you know, of starting to dance together, like, you're previewing a bunch of the themes that I'm excited to learn more about.

   4. TVTessa Virtue9:41

      Mm.

   5. AGAdam Grant9:41

      So I'm, I'm kind of torn on where to go first, but maybe I just, I wanna go back to the, the arranged partnership. Why were you paired?

   6. SMScott Moir9:49

      Well, I think I can answer this, Tess, 'cause my aunt tells me all the time. So we had the same base coach, who was my Aunt Carol. Tessa was a s- I don't know. T, you're gonna laugh and probably not say that, but she was a star. She was a really great skater. Um, she had g- great jumps. She had musicality. You know, like, you can't really scout at that age, but if you could, she had it. And I was, I was the only boy around, so lucky for me. Um, I think they, they just thought that that would be a good partnership. And to so much of it, uh, back in those days especially, was ju- it's just height. It's height, and if it fits together, and, uh, if they're on the same dances. But that's, that's pretty much it. I, I wish it was a little bit more sophisticated than that, but, um, it's a bit more of, of just, uh, circumstance, I think.

7. 10:36 – 14:30

   Compatibility is built, not found: opposites who became aligned

   1. AGAdam Grant10:36

      Well, I don't wish it was more sophisticated because I think one of the most interesting things I've learned about how people vibe is I think a lot of people believe that compatibility is something you match on.

   2. TVTessa Virtue10:45

      Mm.

   3. AGAdam Grant10:45

      And I think the evidence is, is clear that it's more something you develop. Uh, and it sounds like you, the two of you were, were paired on kind of minimum physical compatibility. [laughs] You had to be athletic enough, and there were some height standards.

   4. SMScott Moir10:58

      Mm.

   5. AGAdam Grant10:58

      But there wasn't a lot of attention to, are you gonna get along interpersonally?

   6. SMScott Moir11:03

      Oh, no.

   7. AGAdam Grant11:03

      Are you gonna have chemistry emotionally? None of that.

   8. SMScott Moir11:06

      None.

   9. TVTessa Virtue11:06

      Gosh, that's such a good point, and I'm, I'm keen to learn more about your research because actually on the personality spectrum, I think you would find us at opposite ends. And what was interesting was that sure, like that, you know, we were able to find the power in our differences eventually, but we didn't need to be alike to be aligned. And I think our temperaments, our communication styles, even, like, the way we process pressure was completely different. And that ended up being part of this kind of secret sauce, this, the power of our partnership that we ultimately worked on, but it wasn't easy, and it wasn't natural by any means.

   10. AGAdam Grant11:46

       You don't need to be alike to be aligned. Bingo.

   11. TVTessa Virtue11:50

       [laughs]

   12. SMScott Moir11:51

       [laughs]

   13. AGAdam Grant11:51

       How are you different? You said opposites, Tessa, on the personality spectrum. On what traits are you, are you so different?

   14. TVTessa Virtue11:57

       The first thing that comes to mind is part of what makes Scott such a captivating performer is that he is fiery and passionate and so engaged, a little bit temperamental, um, but in the best way. Like, you know what he's thinking and feeling at all times. I would give anything to have that kind of transparency, and even that awareness of my own self the way that Scott seems to so innately. I think just naturally I learned to offset that. Um, I learned to be more even-keeled and calmer and just sort of like a, a bit of a toned down version of that, and I wonder how much of that is natural and how much of that was reinforced because of this dynamic between the two of us that almost required that of me. Is that fair, Scott?

   15. SMScott Moir12:45

       Yeah, it's, there's just so many factors of that. First of all, it's even hard for me to be like, hear you say all these nice things about me and- For you to say that you're on the opposite side, 'cause that's not quite how I see it, but the reserved part-

   16. TVTessa Virtue12:59

       Mm

   17. SMScott Moir12:59

       ... for sure when you were young, I, I agree with, and I'm interested to find out if that would've been the same if I wasn't so wild and taking up all the space in, in the room.

   18. TVTessa Virtue13:09

       [laughs]

   19. SMScott Moir13:09

       Um, but that did change as we were more authentically ourselves, and I think that's when we are at our, our most powerful. So it's interesting. But, um, when... Well, now I sound old, but when we were growing up and, you know, maybe that was some more of the, quote-unquote, "acceptable roles," uh, Tessa being a, a young woman in the sport of figure skating, um, and me being this wild young man, and think that that has a role to play in it as well.

   20. AGAdam Grant13:36

       Scott, I'm glad you called out the gender stereotypes because I didn't hear what, what Tessa was saying necessarily as, as complimentary of you. [laughs] Like, I, I could, I could replay what she said and say, "Wow, he is emotionally unstable."

   21. SMScott Moir13:50

       [laughs]

   22. AGAdam Grant13:50

       "He is..."

   23. SMScott Moir13:52

       Yes.

   24. AGAdam Grant13:52

       In fact, he's too emotional to lead.

   25. SMScott Moir13:54

       [laughs]

   26. AGAdam Grant13:54

       Like, unqualified. Uh, cannot control his temper. Like, this, this guy is lacking in maturity.

   27. SMScott Moir14:02

       I think for sure at a young age those things are true, so I can't-

   28. AGAdam Grant14:06

       [laughs]

   29. SMScott Moir14:06

       I can't disagree with them and, um, but I'm, I'm-

   30. AGAdam Grant14:09

       Impulsive, hothead
8. 14:30 – 17:03

   Conflict that fuels performance: task conflict, positive attribution, and balance

   1. AGAdam Grant14:30

      Well, but I actually think this illustrates one of the, the powerful features of your dynamic, which is you took something that could be interpreted positively or negatively, and you saw the good in it, right? [laughs]

   2. TVTessa Virtue14:43

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AGAdam Grant14:43

      So, like, Tessa just describes you, I think, neutrally, and you're like, "Wow, thank you so much."

   4. TVTessa Virtue14:48

      Yeah. But you're right, Adam. I mean, I think without realizing it early on, we developed that kind of, like, positive attribution theory too, where anything negative we'd associate to external events, and anything positive that happened would be sort of a characteristic attribution to one another. And we did have this ability to be one another's greatest fan and somehow find, like, a way to lift one another up. I think we kind of put each other on this pedestal.

   5. AGAdam Grant15:14

      Literally.

   6. TVTessa Virtue15:14

      Yeah. Yeah, right. [laughs] But by the same token, I mean, part of that fire that I described in Scott was what propelled us forward. Um, I, I often say that he's the kind of person that can change the temperature of the room when he walks in, and I suppose to your point, that can be good or bad, but it was so important for us to have someone, like, driving the energy in that way. And, and almost to an unhealthy extent I was putting his needs before my own, and that was, that was not helpful for so many years. And so I think, Scott, what you're getting at is, like, towards the end of our career we were able to find this, you know, more powerful equilibrium.

   7. SMScott Moir15:52

      Mm-hmm.

   8. TVTessa Virtue15:53

      But I suppose when it came to the discrepancies between us, the conflict almost became information. Like, it wasn't harmonious all the time, but more often than not, on the heels of some tension or disagreement was our most productive time because we would have thought of the work as this separate thing we were both working towards, and it didn't feel personal. We were able to just sort of put that aside, and it wasn't this, like, referendum on the friendship or the partnership.

   9. AGAdam Grant16:24

      That is classic task conflict instead of relationship conflict. And y- one of the things I've... Gosh, there's so many things to talk about here, but one, one of the things that I, I'd love to hear about is I think great partners often develop routines or rituals for having conflict-

   10. TVTessa Virtue16:41

       Mm

   11. AGAdam Grant16:41

       ... without it kinda spilling over into the personal animosity problem [laughs] that so many of us run into. So how do we disagree about a plan, a vision, a strategy, a decision without developing some animosity or, you know, frustration toward each other? Did the two of you develop ways of, of raising disagreement or even kinda kicking off a fight without it becoming nasty?

9. 17:03 – 20:21

   Rituals for hard conversations: sentence starters, safe ice, and behavioral trust

   1. SMScott Moir17:03

      Tough.

   2. TVTessa Virtue17:04

      Do you-

   3. SMScott Moir17:04

      We're bad fighters.

   4. TVTessa Virtue17:05

      Yeah. A few things come to mind, and Scott, I, I wonder if you, i- if you remember this, but Marni MacBean is an Olympic rower, very decorated Olympian, um, a hero of ours, and was a mentor to us before actually each of the three Olympic Games. She once suggested that we had a formula to begin the difficult conversations, and sh- she said that when you're in them, you know how to argue. You know how to kind of state your point and, and go back and forth, but it's starting the difficult conversation. And we really took that to heart. Like, we had kind of a meta conversation about how do we want to handle conflict, and there were a few key ingredients. One was having that sentence starter, so it kind of, you know, cut through the tension and, and the other could prepare to, to listen and understand. We never argued on the ice. That always remained our safe place. As long as our skates were on, that was the time to work and be productive and get the most out of every moment on the ice. Um, and-

   5. AGAdam Grant17:59

      And plus then no one's gonna get stabbed with a skate.

   6. TVTessa Virtue18:02

      Exactly. Yeah, that was always-

   7. AGAdam Grant18:03

      Literally a safe place.

   8. SMScott Moir18:03

      That's a big pro. Big pro

   9. TVTessa Virtue18:05

      ... that was, um, yeah, always dangerous. The other component of that is the idea of trust, which over time I think we learned that it wasn't just emotional. It was behavioral. Like, sure, we had this emotional trust that more often than not was there, but not all the time, not to be depended on. However, the behavioral trust came with years and years of evidence that we would show up for one another, that we would do the work, that we would execute under pressure, that we never disappointed one another in the professional manner, and that kind of trust in the working partnership that we had was way more beneficial than any other kind of, um, emotional trust.

   10. SMScott Moir18:46

       Yeah, it's like w- 'cause I think people misunderstand our relationship. A lot of our career we were good friends, but we didn't have much of a per- Personal, uh, friendship off the ice. So we loved working together, but when it was the weekend, we both ran in our, in our separate directions. So intense, but you're totally right. Professionally, even in our biggest fight, we both knew we wanted to accomplish the same goal, and that was a, a big thing for us. Like, we never wanna disappoint each other. And, and, um, when w- um, we didn't get along personally, or, you know, we were, we were hurt, we didn't want to let the other person down was the biggest thing in our lives. So to be able to at least deliver professionally was, like, the bare minimum for us because we- there was a level of care there and, and a bond of performing together. And there is something so unusual about the intensity and the intimacy of, of a, of an ice dance team. You know? We push away from the boards, and it's just us, and those relationships are, they're different than any other relationship you have in your life.

   11. AGAdam Grant19:51

       That's powerful. So early in the conversation, Scott, you said it was a few years in before, I think you used the word magic.

   12. SMScott Moir19:58

       Mm-hmm.

   13. AGAdam Grant19:58

       Before the magic started to happen. And Tessa, you said, I'm gonna go back to your point, that you didn't need to be alike to be aligned. How did you get to that point of alignment? Like, how did, how did you go from sorta just you're showing up with very different goals to then wanting the exact same thing, and what does that teach us about how we can all be better allies with people that we wanna be able to collaborate effectively with?

10. 20:21 – 26:05

    The ‘code of respect’ meeting that changed everything

    1. TVTessa Virtue20:21

       Well, I go back to a meeting we had with one of our coaches, Suzanne Killing.

    2. SMScott Moir20:27

       Ah. [laughs]

    3. TVTessa Virtue20:27

       You too?

    4. SMScott Moir20:28

       Yeah.

    5. TVTessa Virtue20:29

       We were-

    6. SMScott Moir20:29

       Exactly.

    7. TVTessa Virtue20:30

       How old were we? Do you remember?

    8. SMScott Moir20:32

       Oh, gosh, we would've been 10 and 12, something like that.

    9. TVTessa Virtue20:35

       Yeah, somewhere around there. She took us off the ice. We're still wearing our skates. We put our guards on, and we sit in this little meeting room with a window that looks onto the ice surface. And not only did she have us kind of assess the way that the other teams around us, the other ice dance teams, communicated with each other and sort of evaluate how productive that was for them, she also highlighted to us what we say to each other and how we say it has extraordinary impact. She was the first person that I ever really heard talk about, like, this common goal that we had and that we need one another to accomplish those things, and we need each other at our best. And kind of then and there, we had this, like, code of respect that we learned to cultivate. You know, like, as young kids, we never name-called. We never blamed one another. We sort of vowed not to coach one e- one another because we also had so many external coaches that it was better if we weren't-

    10. SMScott Moir21:27

        Mm

    11. TVTessa Virtue21:27

        ... turning that inward to change the dynamic of the team. But in fact, we would go to bat for one another, [laughs] almost be a little defensive of any negative coaching. And that s- that right there, that one meeting sitting by the, by the rink with Suzanne changed the course for us, I think. I mean, I think that at the very least, so many seeds were planted, and it was up to us to every day make a choice to sort of lean into those things that we had discussed.

    12. SMScott Moir21:54

        Yeah. That was one of the biggest secrets to our success, I think. We, we saw that as a, as a real tool in our toolbox that we could use, and we used way better than the people that we trained with, our competitors, uh, because we were collaborative every day working together. I think it really does go back to that meeting with Suz and, and the values that she instilled. And, you know, we're in a little skating rink. I mean, we're all trying to get pro- programs ready, and the deadline's very real. I think I was probably being a bit of a jerk. For her to be like, "Full stop. We're getting off the ice, and we're talking about this," and I'll never forget that. I can picture the room, and it was a huge moment.

    13. AGAdam Grant22:30

        This is such a compelling lesson for how to be great allies, the idea that you're gonna sit down and come up with a code of respect which includes not only what you do to support each other and try to work toward your goal together, but also what behaviors are unacceptable to both of you, the no name-calling-

    14. SMScott Moir22:46

        Mm

    15. AGAdam Grant22:46

        ... no blaming. I mean, I think that would apply to, frankly, any kind of partnership. The idea of not coaching each other, that's such an interesting way of making sure that you're always pointed in the same direction and nobody's stepping on the other's toes. And I don't, you know, obviously, I think there, there's probably a time and a place where that makes sense for some people, but just the, the, the act of deciding what is it that's gonna preserve our partnership? What are the behaviors that might threaten that partnership? And [laughs] let's align on that. That's almost as important as aligning on the goal of becoming two-time Olympic champions, isn't it?

    16. TVTessa Virtue23:20

        Absolutely. Yeah.

    17. SMScott Moir23:21

        More than.

    18. TVTessa Virtue23:21

        I think more than. Yeah.

    19. AGAdam Grant23:23

        More than?

    20. TVTessa Virtue23:24

        In some ways because, again, like, that goal was there for us. You know? Like, that's just clear. A lot of people were aiming towards that. But our competitive advantage was harnessing the power of what we could be as a pair and, and really protecting and nurturing that partnership together. And I feel like I wouldn't be doing my duty if I didn't say as a, as a former skating partner, current friend, current pal, you've... Scott's been painted to be this, like, terror. [laughs]

    21. SMScott Moir23:52

        [laughs]

    22. TVTessa Virtue23:52

        You are also the nicest, funniest, sweetest guy ever. I feel like that hasn't gotten enough talk on this pod.

    23. SMScott Moir23:58

        Oh, that's very sweet.

    24. TVTessa Virtue23:58

        [laughs]

    25. SMScott Moir23:59

        But quit using the past tense. I'm still all of these things.

    26. TVTessa Virtue24:01

        Sorry. [laughs] You are, yeah. [laughs]

    27. SMScott Moir24:03

        You just don't get to see me as much. You- [laughs]

    28. TVTessa Virtue24:05

        True.

    29. SMScott Moir24:05

        Yeah, you don't have to spend 12 hours a day with me.

    30. AGAdam Grant24:08

        I wanna get really concrete and specific about how you would initiate a difficult conversation. Can you model or demo for us? Like, like, start that conversation with him. Show us how you would do it.
11. 26:05 – 29:59

    Allies, pals, companions: why they weren’t always close off the ice

    1. AGAdam Grant26:05

       Given how much you seem to like and respect each other, it's surprising to me that you, you said you weren't really close friends off the ice. I wanna talk more about that. I wanna do that through the framework that I wrote about in Vibe. When I think about making a strong connection, I think about three wavelengths we can connect on, and I've come to call them allies, pals, and companions. Allies are people who share your goals and you're on a common mission together. Pals are people who share your interests and hobbies, and you just enjoy being together. And companions are people who share your values, and you care deeply about each other and provide each other a lot of emotional support. From what I've heard so far, it sounds like you were primarily allies for a lot of the time that you competed together, and you didn't really need to be pals or companions. Accurate or inaccurate?

    2. SMScott Moir26:54

       Absolutely. The ally, ally part is, is right. I mean, that was number one, accomplish our goals. I think we were pals in my opinion, but the, the, there is a companion part to it as well. As I said, we care deeply about each other. Um, so I think we just, we blur the lines in all three.

    3. TVTessa Virtue27:12

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SMScott Moir27:12

       And we wanted to, in the end, do it just as much for the other person as we did for ourself. I think actually the last two years of our career, that was our major motivator-

    5. TVTessa Virtue27:20

       Mm-hmm

    6. SMScott Moir27:21

       ... um, was to do it for each other. And, and now you're sitting there, Adam, just like, "Yeah, that's the ally part."

    7. TVTessa Virtue27:26

       Yeah [laughs] .

    8. SMScott Moir27:27

       Um, but I don't know. It's-

    9. TVTessa Virtue27:28

       I think for sure, I mean, you're right. A- allies, yes. I think companions, yes. Very aligned on values. I think the pals component came and went throughout the 22 years.

    10. SMScott Moir27:38

        Yeah.

    11. TVTessa Virtue27:38

        I think when we were, like, operating on all cylinders and, like, really at the peaks of our career, pals was included in that, but it, it wasn't consistent. And there's something interesting about, I don't know, this, this idea that we were extraordinarily emotionally and physically connected, but that closeness required space. Like, in order for that to be able to flourish, w- we needed to have our own identities or needed to feel as if we had identities outside of skating, outside of the partnership. Um, and we needed to give each other some breathing room in order to then build that bond even more closely.

    12. SMScott Moir28:17

        But what's so interesting is, like, when we were pals, nobody had more fun than us.

    13. TVTessa Virtue28:22

        Yeah.

    14. SMScott Moir28:23

        Like, we had a blast. Like, in the, like, stupid little car rides or traveling the world, when we are in that pal state.

    15. TVTessa Virtue28:29

        Yeah.

    16. SMScott Moir28:29

        But then there was also, like, the other side of a relationship where it's [laughs] we always thought people thought we were crazy for this, but when we got on an airplane, we didn't sit together. Like, we just, it was our time to be alone.

    17. TVTessa Virtue28:39

        Yeah.

    18. SMScott Moir28:40

        So we did, we were, I guess we're strange. Now you're making me realize, Adam-

    19. TVTessa Virtue28:43

        [laughs]

    20. SMScott Moir28:43

        ... that we are. We're qui- it's weird. It's a, it, it's a really strange relationship. I was hoping you'd figure it out for us in this hour.

    21. AGAdam Grant28:50

        [laughs]

    22. SMScott Moir28:50

        But the pals one was important to us. We knew we had to be there for each other in order to be at our best, but we also just wanted to enjoy it the whole time.

    23. AGAdam Grant28:59

        So Tessa, you said that, like, when you were firing on all cylinders, you were pals, and I have a chicken and egg question about that. I think, you know, it's easy to assume that becoming pals brings out the best in you because, you know, you're having more fun together. That activates intrinsic motivation. You know, it's easier to push through the hard parts of practice. Maybe you look like you're having more fun on the ice, and that's, that's ultimately good for your performance. But I also wonder if being pals is a consequence of success because, like, when you're winning an Olympic gold medal, you are celebrating [laughs] and it's hard not to have fun together. And I, I guess I'm curious about does it go both ways? Is that a virtuous cycle? [laughs] Like, which causal arrow is stronger? And, uh, well, I have another question too. Three-part questions are bad, but-

    24. TVTessa Virtue29:45

        [laughs] Go for it

    25. AGAdam Grant29:46

        ... I'll, I'll let you choose your own adventure in terms of-

    26. TVTessa Virtue29:48

        Okay

    27. AGAdam Grant29:48

        ... the, the one other piece of this that I'm really intrigued by is did you have routines for becoming stronger pals or closer pals, and did that actually contribute to your success as partners?

12. 29:59 – 34:45

    When pal time mattered most: rituals, vulnerability, and the 2014 ‘us vs. the world’ moment

    1. TVTessa Virtue29:59

       I think to answer the last part first, yes. In the end, like, once we had a more sophisticated approach to training and competing, we would actually schedule personal time to hang out, and sometimes that was with our sports psych. We'd go and get coffee or dinner. But often around competition, we knew that, okay, on a practice day we should prioritize time together, whether that's a walk around a new city, the Olympic Village. And that just became part of one of the rituals to, to bring us closer and to, to find time to be together that wasn't so intense and so specific around the strategic approach to skating. The other part's really interesting. Yes, I think success brought us close together, but also the, maybe the failures even more, or the vulnerability of defending a title, I would say. Like, in the, our second Olympic cycle, we had just come off of winning a home Olympic games and we went into the first games as complete underdogs. No one knew us. We didn't have a sponsor. We weren't on any, like, medal contender hopeful list [laughs] . It was like an athlete's dream come true because we had nothing to lose, and yet we were chasing something that meant so much to us. Then suddenly, like the flick of a switch, we were the team to beat. We had the target on our backs, and anything less than gold was a failure for Canada, or so we felt. And I think one of the times when I think back on our career that I felt closest to you was in the Olympic Village in the 2014 Olympics because it really felt like us against the world. It didn't feel like we had a close support team that we could trust. There was, like, this raw vulnerability of taking the ice not feeling confident and not feeling worthy, and yet chasing that gold again. And I think we really, we really relied on each other. And so that's a moment when I think being pals paid off, but it was really driven by the, the necessity of, like, [laughs] helping each other through the low and the loneliness. That's my attempt to answer your three-part question. [laughs]

    2. SMScott Moir32:02

       You did a good job. I think you just made a complex web even more complex. [laughs]

    3. TVTessa Virtue32:07

       Mm.

    4. AGAdam Grant32:07

       It's what we do in psychology.

    5. TVTessa Virtue32:08

       [laughs]

    6. AGAdam Grant32:09

       Can't help it.

    7. TVTessa Virtue32:09

       Yeah. [laughs]

    8. AGAdam Grant32:10

       I think that the simplest relationships, like, they're primarily defined by connecting on one of these wavelengths. So if somebody is just your pal, and you enjoy hanging out, and [laughs] you don't lean on them for emotional support, and you don't have any goals to pursue together, that is the, it's kind of the peak low maintenance relationship. And if somebody's just your ally, like, and you know you're locked in on the same goals, but you don't have to [laughs] spend a lot of time getting to know each other, you have complementary skills, like, that's, that's relatively straightforward to manage, too. And if somebody's a great companion and they're there when you need them and vice versa, but otherwise, like, your lives are just kinda moving in different directions, that doesn't require a lot of effort either. What each of those misses is you're not as close because you don't connect for [laughs] multiple reasons. You don't have the same repertoire of, like, reasons to look forward to seeing each other, um, and ways that you can intertwine in each other's lives. What I haven't seen until now, and this is a long preamble, but my a-ha is your relationship has moved in and out of these different phases. And so you've always been allies, but the, the pal and companion connections have waxed and waned.

    9. SMScott Moir33:20

       Mm-hmm.

    10. AGAdam Grant33:20

        And that's okay.

    11. TVTessa Virtue33:21

        Yeah. It would be interesting to map a graph and correlate, like, the successful times and [laughs] um-

    12. AGAdam Grant33:28

        Mm-hmm

    13. TVTessa Virtue33:28

        ... the wins and the losses and, and to see how that maps along those three categories. But you're right. It, it had to be okay, at least for the purpose of this long-term partnership that has served us so well.

    14. AGAdam Grant33:40

        I would love to see that research project done. That is a doctoral dissertation waiting to happen.

    15. SMScott Moir33:44

        Sounds like a lot of work.

    16. TVTessa Virtue33:45

        [laughs]

    17. SMScott Moir33:46

        [laughs] I think we, when we're really close in we're really friends, it's at a deep level, and we're enjoying every part of it. And, um, and if we're not there, you know, I don't remember there being, like, anger, but I don't think we're really able to, to fake that. And I think that's just the bleeding of the lines of the three.

    18. TVTessa Virtue34:04

        Mm.

    19. SMScott Moir34:04

        But fascinating stuff.

    20. AGAdam Grant34:06

        As far as companionship is concerned, I'm thinking about similar questions around, I think that sometimes companionship is really helpful for a collaboration. The closer you are as companions, [laughs] the more you care about helping each other succeed and not disappointing each other, and so there's a benefit there. On the other hand, I think there's a lot of pressure and a lot of sometimes emotional baggage that comes out when you have that kind of companionship, and sometimes it's just easier to focus on what's happening on the ice. And so I'd just love to hear the two of you reflect on what were the pros and cons of, I guess, the emotional intimacy that you had when it spiked and when that was less a part of your collaboration.

13. 34:45 – 39:51

    Learning each other like a language: emotional acknowledgement and performing on low days

    1. SMScott Moir34:45

       Every time that we were really on and really, like, in our best performance energy, we had this connection. So there is that emotional intimacy. And I don't know if we were, were able to manipulate it, um, or rely on it, but I think we used it, um, in our biggest performance to really be there. Like, we felt like two hearts beating at the same time, you know, breathing at the same time, there for each other, looking in each other's eyes, squeezing each other's hands. You know, that intimacy is, is how we connected, and I think is related to our success.

    2. TVTessa Virtue35:24

       We had to learn each other almost like a language that-

    3. SMScott Moir35:28

       Mm.

    4. AGAdam Grant35:29

       Hmm

    5. TVTessa Virtue35:29

       ... after so many years we could read one another incredibly well, and that was, you know, body language, cues, energy, when to push, when to leave something alone. Like, that fluency was only built because it was years of getting it wrong, years of misunderstanding, years of making assumptions about what the other person was thinking, um, repairing, recalibrating, leaving space for, for that kind of growth.

    6. AGAdam Grant35:52

       I love this idea of learning each other like a language. Like, I don't speak Scott. How do I get better at that?

    7. TVTessa Virtue35:58

       Mm.

    8. SMScott Moir35:58

       [laughs]

    9. AGAdam Grant36:00

       Like, what, [laughs] what, what are-

    10. SMScott Moir36:00

        No need. [laughs]

    11. AGAdam Grant36:01

        [laughs]

    12. SMScott Moir36:01

        It doesn't serve you in any way. [laughs]

    13. AGAdam Grant36:04

        Uh, but no, it's, I think it's a great metaphor for what happens in so many interactions when people either clash or just fail to click is it's like trying to communicate in two different languages.

    14. TVTessa Virtue36:16

        Yes.

    15. AGAdam Grant36:17

        And, like, you talk past each other or misinterpret each other or become at odds with each other because of that. Do you have insights or advice on, like, how to accelerate that process? Like, if, if you wanted to read someone more accurately.

    16. TVTessa Virtue36:30

        Mm.

    17. AGAdam Grant36:30

        Like, what did, what did you learn about how to do that?

    18. TVTessa Virtue36:32

        I mean, the most obvious thing is to pay attention, but to really tune in. And then to not be afraid to check in, you know? Like, I, if Scott walked into the rink and I could see his jaw was clenched or his fists were tight, I would immediately assume that I had done something wrong. And yet later when I would vocalize something, he'd say, "Oh, you know what? Didn't sleep great," or, "Traffic on the way here just got to me and I'm just making things up."

    19. SMScott Moir36:57

        Yeah, neither one of those things would have ever happened.

    20. TVTessa Virtue36:59

        [laughs] But that was, uh, evidence for me to think, oh, actually I wasn't, I wasn't right. It's not about me. Not everything is about the way that he's interpreting, you know, my existence here. And then- You know, through the squeeze of a hand. Luckily, our work was so physically connected, I knew that, like, what I needed from him in, in the moments when I was, like, most scared about to take the ice was a wink, the squeeze of a hand, and just for him to say, like, "We got this, kiddo." And I wasn't eventually afraid to ask for that. And so, yes, we, we knew each other so well, but there was this real open dialogue about, you know, how we were communicating both verbally and with our body language. Is that... Would you agree, Scott?

    21. SMScott Moir37:41

        Yeah. Yeah, totally.

    22. AGAdam Grant37:43

        That's really powerful. It makes me think about a, a great paper led by Elisa Yu on what's called emotional acknowledgement, which is something I underestimated the importance of until I read this evidence. So when you talk about tuning in and checking in, like even just saying, "Hey, Scott, you seem upset." Making that statement, the evidence shows, increases trust.

    23. SMScott Moir38:04

        Mm-hmm.

    24. AGAdam Grant38:04

        It allows us to understand each other, to get on the same page. It's also a little bit of a risky move on my part to say, "Hey, I was, like [laughs] I was paying attention to your facial expressions, and here's what I read." There's a little wrinkle in the data, which is if you mislabel the other person's negative emotions, you get penalized for doing that.

    25. SMScott Moir38:21

        [laughs]

    26. AGAdam Grant38:22

        And Scott's gonna say, "No, I am not upset, but now I am."

    27. SMScott Moir38:25

        Now you're identifying, um, yeah, probably the first six years of Tessa's ice dancing career. But you were also really good at that.

    28. TVTessa Virtue38:32

        [laughs]

    29. SMScott Moir38:32

        Like, you'd just give me my space, and then I'd come around hopefully. Uh, but I, I do that a lot, you know, daily, just like that, "Hey, you're stressed. How are you feeling?" And I think I did learn that just from trying to communicate with, with Tess, and that's the most important. I love that. Tuning in, such a great way to look at it.

    30. TVTessa Virtue38:50

        You do that so naturally. That's, like, one of your superpowers.
14. 39:51 – 42:05

    Closing reflections: investing in each other’s emotions strengthens the mission

    1. AGAdam Grant39:51

       Scott, I think you just nailed [laughs] like this is, it's right out of the data. I love this. You just nailed why being companions can make you better allies. I think this, this is the one other finding from the, the research that opened my eyes was when you take the time to comment on somebody else's emotions, you're not just showing that you care enough to pay attention to them, you're also willing to incur the cost of addressing whatever the issue is, right? [laughs]

    2. SMScott Moir40:16

       Yeah.

    3. AGAdam Grant40:16

       So like Scott, if, you know, if you point out that Tessa seems like she's lacking confidence, you're also sending her a message, "Hey, I, I, it's important to me to work with you, uh, and build up your confidence." And that is a big investment in a relationship, isn't it?

    4. SMScott Moir40:32

       Yeah, totally. And the, with the confidence issue, the thing that I did so poorly early, I would get so frustrated. "How come you're not confident? [laughs] You have every right to be confident." And where I think I really misstepped is I took away her, yeah, kind of her permission to feel that way. Like, of course, like of course she's just getting ready for a big event. She's gonna put herself out there. You'd have to be psycho to not actually be a little not confident, right? So yeah. Learning as I go still.

    5. AGAdam Grant41:02

       Oh, this is, this has just been such a joyful learning experience for me. I can't thank the two of you enough for, for joining. I guess I've, I've been watching you since, [laughs] since you were first in the Olympics, and I knew you were magic on the ice, but your relationship is just as magic off the ice. And now to see the vibe you have-

    6. TVTessa Virtue41:20

       [laughs]

    7. AGAdam Grant41:21

       ... just talking to each other, we all need more of that. I think the two of you both modeling it and also unpacking it for us is just immensely valuable in this increasingly lonely world where people are struggling to connect. So I cannot thank you enough for being willing to, to share your bond with all of us.

    8. TVTessa Virtue41:40

       Thank you, Adam. That means a lot.

    9. SMScott Moir41:41

       Thank you. That was fantastic. Really enjoyed.

    10. TVTessa Virtue41:44

        So fun. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 42:05