Improvisation as a life skill with Andrea Jones-Rooy and Justin Gregg

Adam joins an improv comedy workshop and comes away with new insights about facing failure, building resilience, boosting creativity, and elevating collaboration. He takes the stage in Authors@Wharton with a pair of past Re:Thinking guests, data scientist Andrea Jones-Rooy and animal cognition researcher Justin Gregg, who happen to moonlight as improv comedy performers. In this unique episode, Andrea and Justin throw Adam headfirst into a series of improv exercises and lead a lively, often hilarious discussion of the practical lessons. Follow our podcasts! ReThinking with Adam Grant: https://link.mgln.ai/kdYcyx The TED Podcasts is a collection of podcasts for the curious. The TED Podcasts videos may be used for non-commercial purposes under a Creative Commons License, Attribution–Non Commercial–No Derivatives (or the CC BY – NC – ND 4.0 International) and in accordance with our TED Talks Usage Policy (https://www.ted.com/about/our-organiz...). For more information on using TED for commercial purposes (e.g. employee learning, in a film or online course), please submit a Media Request at https://media-requests.ted.com.

Andrea Jones-RooyguestJustin GreggguestAdam Granthost

Aug 20, 202637mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

45 min read · 8,667 words

0:00 – 1:35
Improv as the “dirty secret” behind science communication
1. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Improv really helps you be a, a better listener, a better team member, a better person who, who thinks bigger ideas. Bless you. She's allergic to team membership.
2. JGJustin Gregg
  Oh, she again.
3. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  I can't believe it. [upbeat music] Wanna sit on this chair?
4. JGJustin Gregg
  No, I like-
5. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  All right, great.
6. JGJustin Gregg
  [laughs]
7. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  You stand behind me, and then we'll do it.
8. JGJustin Gregg
  Sure.
9. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah.
10. JGJustin Gregg
  I don't wanna sit on this, though. There we go.
11. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Okay, great.
12. JGJustin Gregg
  I'm a little disappointed in myself.
13. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Uh-oh.
14. JGJustin Gregg
  Because you've both been on my podcast, and I failed to ask you about improv comedy.
15. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  [laughs]
16. JGJustin Gregg
  We failed to do improv comedy.
17. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Mm-hmm.
18. JGJustin Gregg
  I f- I feel like that was-
19. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Mm
20. JGJustin Gregg
  ... a, an epic disaster on my part.
21. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  I think the big headline from both of our appearances on your podcast is "epic disaster." [laughs]
22. JGJustin Gregg
  That's true.
23. AGAdam Grant
  That's true.
24. JGJustin Gregg
  Uh, to be fair, it's a, it's a, it's a dirty secret in a way that we don't-
25. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah
26. JGJustin Gregg
  ... like, w- as a science communicator, I use improv all the time, but it's not necessarily how I advertise myself to the world-
27. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Right
28. JGJustin Gregg
  ... as an improviser first.
29. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Right.
30. JGJustin Gregg
  Scientist sounds a little more-
1:35 – 3:08
What improv actually is: short-form vs long-form (and why it’s misunderstood)
1. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  That's right. So I wanna know how many of you... We're, we're talking about improvisational comedy. I think one of the thing people don't realize about improv is that it's, first of all, truly made up on the spot, and there's basically two versions of improv. There's one version where you go up and people tell you funny things, and you sort of say them and la- and act them out, like Whose Line Is It Anyway? And then long form improvisational comedy is you go on stage with a bunch of other people, you have zero plan, you've discussed nothing ahead of time.
2. JGJustin Gregg
  Mm.
3. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  And you go out, and someone gives you a word, or a place, or an idea, and you might do an entire half-hour show with multiple scenes and characters, and some of it's funny, some of it might be actually heartwarming, some of it... You don't know where it's gonna go, and it's a really long-form acting. And for a long time, it was only considered this, like, lesser art form that would be used to generate ideas for sketches for things like SNL.
4. JGJustin Gregg
  That's right.
5. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah.
6. JGJustin Gregg
  And, and improv seems hard. Well, I teach a lot of improv workshops for people who've never done it before, and they always say to me, like, "I d- I just wouldn't know what to say in the moment. I don't know how to make things up on the spot," which always seems odd to me because when you're in a conversation with anybody, your best friend, like right now if you started talking, you don't know what you're going to say until you say it.
7. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Right.
8. JGJustin Gregg
  So, uh, but it's this mental-
9. AGAdam Grant
  I beg to differ, Justin.
10. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Well-
11. JGJustin Gregg
  Okay
12. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  ... this is why we're here. Yeah.
13. AGAdam Grant
  Some of us have, like, a, a constant script running.
14. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yes.
15. JGJustin Gregg
  Okay.
16. AGAdam Grant
  That's ready at any moment.
17. JGJustin Gregg
  Is that you?
18. AGAdam Grant
  Uh, maybe.
19. JGJustin Gregg
  Oh, 'cause you... 'Cause I feel like you're very good at interviews, off-the-cuffing things. That should be no problem, so improv should therefore come easy?
20. AGAdam Grant
  We'll find out. So we, we were at a conference together.
21. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yes.
22. AGAdam Grant
  And I realized you both did improv and said, "Okay, well, let's... We have to do it."
23. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah.
3:08 – 3:51
Why improv feels easier than prepared talks: freedom from being “wrong”
1. AGAdam Grant
  I was really struck watching both of you, that you seem less stressed just in front of a room ready to entertain them without a plan-
2. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Uh-huh
3. AGAdam Grant
  ... than you did giving talks.
4. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  [laughs]
5. JGJustin Gregg
  100%.
6. AGAdam Grant
  Which is completely backward to me.
7. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Wow.
8. JGJustin Gregg
  That's, that is... You've, you've nailed it.
9. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah.
10. JGJustin Gregg
  I find talks, uh, difficult. I find being in plays difficult, where you have to memorize things.
11. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Right.
12. JGJustin Gregg
  Anything where I'm supposed to remember information in the right order to sound like I know what I'm talking about-
13. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Right
14. JGJustin Gregg
  ... even when I'm, like, lecturing as a professor guy-
15. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Right
16. JGJustin Gregg
  ... uh, that is stressful because there's a chance I'm going to get it wrong.
17. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Right.
18. JGJustin Gregg
  And I don't wanna get things wrong. You can't get anything wrong in improv because nobody knows what you're going to say. It's completely freeing. Doing improv in front of, like, thousands of people or whatever, if I get that chance, no nerves whatsoever.
3:51 – 4:59
Improv as a life skill: listening, presence, and not rehearsing your next line
1. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah. Of course we're all improvising 'cause anytime I see a friend or someone I've never met before where I don't know what I'm gonna say, or, or maybe I have some idea, I get nervous in one-on-one regular human conversations because I do spend a fair amount of time thinking, "Whose turn is it to talk? What am I gonna say after the... Oh, they said this. I'm gonna actually say this." Or actually, all I'm thinking about, especially if I'm in, like, a meeting or something, like, all I'm thinking about is the thing I'm gonna say, and I'm not really listening to what everyone else is gonna say 'cause I just wanna get my idea into the room so that I can sound smart, too. And improv is a space where you practice a couple of things that make you much better in everyday life and interaction that are actually not really things that we get to practice.
2. JGJustin Gregg
  It's true. And I, I've been doing, uh, improv for about 10 years, and, uh, things have been going better for me in my life-
3. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  There we go
4. JGJustin Gregg
  ... for the past 10 years.
5. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah.
6. JGJustin Gregg
  And almost all of it is attributable to improv and the lessons that I learned. The lessons that I learned are not just things you write down and try and, like, you read an Adam book, and you try and do the things. It's a thing that is muscle memory for me.
7. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah.
8. JGJustin Gregg
  Like, I've practiced improv so much, so I get used to the things that it's taught me, and that includes learning to be comfortable with failure, or listening better, or being in the moment and not overthinking things, things that I do spontaneously now.
4:59 – 7:21
The core rule: “Yes, and” (and the everyday cost of saying no)
1. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  So a couple of things that we're gonna practice with Adam, and a couple of you all if, if you're game, and even if you're not, we're gonna drag at least several [laughs] of you up. Uh, it's all very fun, uh, but a couple of things that we're gonna be practicing together are some of the core principles of improv. So if you're thinking about improv, you're... Suppose we were at a full-on just regular improv show, not this whole event. We would come on stage with no plan. You would say a word like walrus, and then we would perform for a half hour dramatic scenes, funny scenes, interesting scenes, hopefully, where we're all interacting and somehow riffing on walrus in some way. Now, the magic of improv comes from a couple of core principles that help you go from nothing to something relatively quickly. So one of the ones, and if you've seen any improv or read, like, Amy Poehler's book or, or something like that, you know that one of the big principles is yes, and. Some are, some nodding, yes?
2. JGJustin Gregg
  Yeah.
3. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  So, so yes, and is the idea that whatever you say to me, I'm gonna say, "Absolutely, I agree with that, and I'm gonna add something new." And then we're gonna be out of the gate. Someone says walrus, you're gonna... What's a sentence about walrus? Walruses.
4. AGAdam Grant
  Uh, I'm sure Justin studies walrus for fun.
5. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  I'm sure Justin studies the walrus for fun. Yes, and I'm also sure of that, and I actually think Justin has a pet walrus.
6. JGJustin Gregg
  Yes, and his name is Philip, and he's a, a juvenile, and he's going to be too big for my bathtub one day.
7. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yes, and I think that he's a juvenile, and he's gonna be too big, and so Justin is going to build a w- walrus sanctuary in his hometown.
8. JGJustin Gregg
  Yes, and I've always wanted to see a walrus [laughs] sanctuary because I have never been to one before. There you go.
9. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  There we go.
10. JGJustin Gregg
  So that-
11. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  That was an improv scene. Wasn't it so fun?
12. JGJustin Gregg
  Yeah.
13. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Didn't we all love it?
14. JGJustin Gregg
  Hilarious. Good job. [laughs]
15. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Now w- I think we should do the opposite just for fun.
16. JGJustin Gregg
  Yes, yes, because strangely enough, when you're teaching improv, uh, y- the people who are just starting out, their impulse is to say no. As in in our everyday lives, people say no to new ideas and new things that come up all the time. It's actually a very normal human thing.
17. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  We're risk-averse nervous people.
18. JGJustin Gregg
  Risk-averse.
19. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  One of my first corporate jobs, I went into those meetings, and I would say, "Let's do this, and let's do that, and let's do this." And I was at FiveThirtyEight, and the editor would always say, "No, not that. No, not that." And it wasn't until I was a few months in, I was like, "Oh, his problem is he doesn't say yes and." And it r- I really think it limited our ability to write stories about interesting things. So any time you're in a meeting or a brainstorming, yes and your way through crazy stuff, and you might end up somewhere interesting.
7:21 – 8:29
Failure immunity: learning to bomb safely and bounce back
1. JGJustin Gregg
  But what... You touched on something I, I think that is probably the core for me anyway, what a- I find empowering about improv, and that is learning to deal with, uh, failure.
2. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yes. [laughs]
3. JGJustin Gregg
  And I'll give you one example.
4. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  It's a good sales pitch for this.
5. JGJustin Gregg
  Yes, no, b- but for real, for-
6. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah
7. JGJustin Gregg
  ... and I've l- I've learned to fail so often that I'm immune to it. I don't have an emotional reaction to it. And w- the worst thing that ever happened for me for improv was we were asked to do an improv show with our group after this theater performance, and this theater performance involved a very sad story of, like, a woman's child who had been murdered, and then she went to court, and it was all about, like... Uh, it was the darkest, saddest thing. And at the end of it, they thought, "Let's have the improv people come up and, and el- elevate the mood by doing a funny show." Absolutely the worst environment to do improv, and then nobody in the group showed up except for me and one other guy.
8. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Mm.
9. JGJustin Gregg
  So it turned into one, uh, like, two-person improv, which is the hardest.
10. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  The hardest.
11. JGJustin Gregg
  And then I went on stage, and I did everything wrong. Every- Like, I, I, I said no to things. I did... I broke every rule. Nobody laughed, and it was fundamentally humiliating. And I left that stage, and I'm like, "It can't be worse than this."
12. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah.
13. JGJustin Gregg
  So every time I go on stage, I know I'm going to be better than that, and that is fundamentally empowering for me, so.
8:29 – 11:28
Improv is teamwork: make your partner look good (Conan as a model)
1. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  I, I think one other piece to say before we get on our feet and try some of these things is that one of the things I have found most beautiful about improv and why I have been coming back to it again and again even though I'm not making a living as an improv comedian, that you're doing something as a team. And there's a lot of talk about the power of teamwork, and we all go to our Slack channels. We say, "Hey, team," and we're all in a group. We're all in this together, and we wanna build community and all that stuff. But in real life, improv... I'm, I'm not really an athlete, so I could be wrong, but in real life, that's a real team that you're on. And the goal of improv, the, the thing that really you're trying to do when you're on stage is you're on stage with your scene partners. My only job besides agreeing with what you've said and building on it is my job is to make you look good and to make you look good. Literally before every shows... I used to do shows in China, and it was super fun because it was brand-new, no, not, very little improv in, in China at the time. And you literally go on stage. You say, "I got your back. I got your back." But you're out there, and your job is to make the other person look funny. So there's no-
2. JGJustin Gregg
  Mm
3. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  ... mistakes. There's no failure because whatever you say, our job is to make it work. And whatever crazy thing I say, your job is to make it work-
4. JGJustin Gregg
  Mm-hmm
5. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  ... and sound like what we've been planning the whole time.
6. JGJustin Gregg
  Exactly. And the people who, who do improv 'cause they think they're funny, and they wanna stand and shine in the spotlight and make jokes-
7. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Very bad
8. JGJustin Gregg
  ... are terrible improvisers.
9. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yes.
10. JGJustin Gregg
  The best ones are the ones who are not there for themselves in a way. They're, they're, "We're here to make Adam look good tonight," for example.
11. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Which is one of the reasons Conan O'Brien is so fun to watch is because he is an amazing scene partner. He himself is a very funny person. His monologues were funny back in the day, all of that stuff. But if you watch his stuff, whether it's his podcast or his interviews, he is, is reacting. He's offering something, but his scene partner is shining, and that's why it's so hard to look away.
12. JGJustin Gregg
  The number of times that Conan has been pranked by Paul Rudd-
13. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Exactly
14. JGJustin Gregg
  ... is, is never-ending. Oh, with the, with the-
15. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah
16. JGJustin Gregg
  ... with the Mac and Me, the bad movie. Mac and Me wheelchair thing.
17. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah, yeah.
18. JGJustin Gregg
  But every time he goes in, and he's there to play ball.
19. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yes.
20. JGJustin Gregg
  Yeah.
21. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yes.
22. JGJustin Gregg
  And you can't tell whether he knows it's coming or not-
23. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah
24. JGJustin Gregg
  ... but it doesn't matter- Yeah ... because he's excited to be the butt of the joke-
25. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Exactly
26. JGJustin Gregg
  ... 'cause it's gonna make Paul Rudd look good.
27. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Exactly.
28. JGJustin Gregg
  Exactly.
29. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  And it often works 'cause Paul Rudd probably isn't telling him ahead of time, "Hey, we're gonna run this clip," because that would actually ruin the fun. And so that's the other piece of it is that I have no plan, but I don't need a plan because you guys are gonna make whatever nonsense I say look amazing. No pressure.
30. JGJustin Gregg
  One of us [laughs] is a little more skilled at that than the other.
11:28 – 15:32
Game 1 — Two-Headed Expert: unison speaking and letting go of leadership
1. JGJustin Gregg
  Yeah, yeah. I love this game. This is called Two-Headed Expert.
2. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yes.
3. JGJustin Gregg
  So what's going to be happening is the two of you-
4. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  You're gonna stand on this side
5. JGJustin Gregg
  ... are going to be a single entity. Uh, and I'm an interviewing you about your area of expertise. We don't know what the area is yet.
6. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Mm-hmm.
7. JGJustin Gregg
  And when you answer me, you talk in unison. [laughs]
8. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  [laughs]
9. JGJustin Gregg
  So, so your job, you have to talk perfectly in unison.
10. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Mm-hmm.
11. JGJustin Gregg
  A- and this is a good game because you have to let go of any leadership things you may have learned.
12. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  No.
13. JGJustin Gregg
  Any leadership-
14. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  And we're literally at a leadership program.
15. JGJustin Gregg
  Nope, no leadership.
16. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Cross that off. That's over.
17. JGJustin Gregg
  It's follow-ship from here on in.
18. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah.
19. JGJustin Gregg
  And so, uh, you, you, so you can't just talk and hope for Andrea to catch up or the other way around. You have to talk in perfect unison. So, uh, now we just need a subject, an unexpected subject in which our expert here is an expert. Yes.
20. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Dominican Republic.
21. JGJustin Gregg
  The Dominican Republic.
22. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Dominican Republic. Thank you.
23. JGJustin Gregg
  Great. Perfect. Well, thank you everybody here for coming, uh, to this, uh, this conference where we, we pick a, we pick a country each time, and then we talk about it. And today, uh, luckily we're talking about the Dominican Republic, and we have one of the foremost experts on the Dominican Republic here in the theater today. Put your hands together, please. [clapping] So, uh, w- what is your name, Professor?
24. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Albert-
25. AGAdam Grant
  Albert-
26. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  M- m- m-
27. AGAdam Grant
  Murner [laughs]
28. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Murner.
29. JGJustin Gregg
  Albert Murner.
30. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  [laughs]
15:32 – 16:04
Post-game reflection: Muppet energy, audience support, and embracing awkwardness
1. AGAdam Grant
  Right. Right. Right. [clapping] So Adam, how did you feel doing that so far?
2. JGJustin Gregg
  Yes, how are you feeling, sir?
3. AGAdam Grant
  Um, I understand now why my students sometimes write that I remind them of a Muppet. [laughs]
4. JGJustin Gregg
  Do they write that?
5. AGAdam Grant
  They do.
6. JGJustin Gregg
  Which Muppet specifically?
7. AGAdam Grant
  They never specify, which is really upsetting to me.
8. JGJustin Gregg
  You need clarity on this.
9. AGAdam Grant
  I do.
10. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Need clarity on this.
11. AGAdam Grant
  I would like to know. If anyone could help me which Muppet, I would, I would really love to know.
12. JGJustin Gregg
  Shout it out.
13. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  So you remind me-
14. JGJustin Gregg
  Kermit. Kermit.
15. AGAdam Grant
  Kermit.
16. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  That's a pretty good answer.
17. JGJustin Gregg
  Wow, that's the best possible answer.
18. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah, good answer.
19. AGAdam Grant
  I, I thought it was the Swedish Chef.
20. JGJustin Gregg
  Oh.
21. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Well, Adam, this is just a survey research design problem. You just need a question that says, "Which-"
22. AGAdam Grant
  I know
23. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  ... Muppet am I?
24. AGAdam Grant
  I know, but I don't wanna know it that badly-
25. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  I see
26. AGAdam Grant
  ... is the problem.
27. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  All right. Fair enough. All right.
16:04 – 23:13
Game 2 — ‘New book you don’t know’: building a mystery from questions
1. JGJustin Gregg
  So now we're going to do another, uh, scene, if that's okay.
2. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah.
3. JGJustin Gregg
  Uh, actually we're gonna need somebody's help.
4. AGAdam Grant
  Yes, Anne.
5. JGJustin Gregg
  Uh, yes, Anne.
6. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  It's Anne.
7. JGJustin Gregg
  So we are now going to interview Adam-
8. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  That's right
9. JGJustin Gregg
  ... about his newest book.
10. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  That's right.
11. JGJustin Gregg
  But Adam doesn't know what his newest book is about.
12. AGAdam Grant
  [laughs]
13. JGJustin Gregg
  So would you please take Adam out into the hallway while we figure out what his book about. And you're, you're going to have to listen to us, and we're gonna ask you questions, and you're gonna have to figure it out-
14. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Make sure you-
15. JGJustin Gregg
  ... while being out
16. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  ... doesn't hear what we're saying now
17. JGJustin Gregg
  You can't hear what we are saying.
18. AGAdam Grant
  I can't hear.
19. JGJustin Gregg
  Okay, great.
20. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Now go away.
21. JGJustin Gregg
  Right.
22. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Okay. That's the slowest door.
23. JGJustin Gregg
  Is he quiet? Is he back, is he, he's not listening, right? Okay.
24. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  What does it say about us that we're like, "He's definitely gonna cheat."
25. JGJustin Gregg
  I know. I, I-
26. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Close the door
27. JGJustin Gregg
  ... he's definitely cheating. Close the door.
28. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah.
29. JGJustin Gregg
  Okay.
30. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  All right.
23:13 – 26:53
Game 3 — Director’s notes: replaying a scene with character constraints
1. JGJustin Gregg
  So you and I will do this one together.
2. AGAdam Grant
  Okay.
3. JGJustin Gregg
  So, uh, we're going to make up a scene, it's gonna be very short. Uh, and then Andrea's gonna come in and pretend to be our director.
4. AGAdam Grant
  Okay.
5. JGJustin Gregg
  And she's gonna have us redo the exact same scene, uh, but then with some different directorial attributes.
6. AGAdam Grant
  Great.
7. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  That's right.
8. JGJustin Gregg
  So...
9. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  We're gonna just do a couple takes of the same movie scene, yeah?
10. JGJustin Gregg
  Okay, so...
11. AGAdam Grant
  This is exactly what I was hoping we would do tonight.
12. JGJustin Gregg
  All right, perfect.
13. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  And we will.
14. JGJustin Gregg
  Here we go.
15. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  All right, so we're gonna need a, a, a suggestion this time of a location that would make for a terrible first date.
16. AGAdam Grant
  Hmm.
17. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Car wash. Car wash. Beautiful.
18. AGAdam Grant
  [laughs]
19. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  [laughs] The car wash. And... You go. And if you're... No, I meant and action.
20. JGJustin Gregg
  Oh. [laughs]
21. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  But thank you. [laughs]
22. AGAdam Grant
  [laughs] What a terrible conversation.
23. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  At a car wash. Action.
24. JGJustin Gregg
  I'm scared.
25. AGAdam Grant
  Me too. Your driving always freaks me out.
26. JGJustin Gregg
  Oh, thanks, I guess. Um, no, really, I mean, uh, c- car washes, it's, it's more, it's, it's more than just the, the, the bad driving. Like, I'm, I'm claustrophobic, and, uh, I'm not really sure I can, uh, be inside this thing. Um, uh, can you do something to distract me? Just do something to distract me.
27. AGAdam Grant
  I can. You know what? The good thing about being claustrophobic-
28. JGJustin Gregg
  Yeah
29. AGAdam Grant
  ... is the car is the same size no matter where we are.
30. JGJustin Gregg
  What the fuck does that mean? [laughs]
26:53 – 30:36
Why improv is hard for thinkers: flow states, metacognition, and divergent practice
1. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Talk to us about how you feel right now, and then how you felt during this.
2. AGAdam Grant
  Okay. So I, I think I, I felt much less uncomfortable than I expected.
3. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Right.
4. AGAdam Grant
  Um, in part because, to your point, a lot of what I do on stage does involve improv.
5. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Right.
6. AGAdam Grant
  But you just killed my confidence that I could deliver anything of value.
7. SPSpeaker
  [laughs]
8. AGAdam Grant
  Because I'm standing up here thinking, "My job... Okay, first I want you all to laugh. And then, but wait, I'm not supposed to do something funny. I'm supposed to set you to, up to do something funny."
9. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Mm.
10. AGAdam Grant
  But the, the curve balls make it very difficult to do that. If you were in my domain, it would be much easier.
11. JGJustin Gregg
  Ah, that makes sense, the curve balls.
12. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  So if we were improvising an organizational psychology conference, we would be-
13. SPSpeaker
  [laughs]
14. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Okay.
15. AGAdam Grant
  I don't think anyone should do that ever.
16. JGJustin Gregg
  [laughs]
17. AGAdam Grant
  To violate one of your rules.
18. JGJustin Gregg
  I think y- your trouble would be in improv is it is an intellectual exercise to some extent, but the real key for improv is that you turn off the part that does the metacognition, the monitoring what you're doing and worrying about what you're doing, trying to figure out what would be the funniest thing to say next. So you're, you're getting-
19. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Or even what to say to set the other person up-
20. AGAdam Grant
  Yeah
21. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  ... to be funny. So you're just doing-
22. AGAdam Grant
  It's reaction
23. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  ... extra math on that. You're just trying to react.
24. AGAdam Grant
  Yeah.
25. JGJustin Gregg
  Yeah, and-
26. AGAdam Grant
  It's hard
27. JGJustin Gregg
  ... yeah. And there are, there are studies of like flow states and things in, in jazz musicians where you put them in an fMRI and you have them improvise stuff, and you see the connectivity in the brain, and that part of the brain that does that cognition is less active. And that's the state we want for improv as well. So-
28. AGAdam Grant
  By the way, whoever dreamed up those fMRI studies, like, yeah, that's the perfect environment for jazz music. [laughs] Let's put-
29. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah.
30. JGJustin Gregg
  No, it's, it couldn't-
30:36 – 33:33
Improv, AI, and smarter groups: combining independent ideas with ‘yes, and’ building
1. AGAdam Grant
  I love this. Okay, this seems like an increasingly useful skill in an AI world.
2. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yes. I'm so glad you said that. [laughs]
3. AGAdam Grant
  Two reasons.
4. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yes.
5. AGAdam Grant
  One, live experiences are-
6. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yes
7. AGAdam Grant
  ... possibly the only thing that AI can't do-
8. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yes
9. AGAdam Grant
  ... at all.
10. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yes.
11. AGAdam Grant
  And two, maybe more importantly, AI is really good at convergent tasks.
12. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Oh.
13. AGAdam Grant
  Bombs at most divergent tasks.
14. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yes.
15. JGJustin Gregg
  Yep.
16. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yes. Unless you specifically say-
17. AGAdam Grant
  Unless your prompts are sufficiently divergent.
18. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Even then, it kinda... Yeah.
19. AGAdam Grant
  So I, I think there's gonna be a growing premium on our ability to do the A to C, or even A to Q-
20. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Right
21. AGAdam Grant
  ... without connecting all the dots.
22. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  So I do some research on collective intelligence, which is, how does a group get smarter? You're really smart, you're really smart, I'm also here, right?
23. AGAdam Grant
  [laughs]
24. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  But we're gonna interact, and we're gonna become smart together because your idea's gonna prompt your idea, which is gonna come to some new thing none of us could think of.
25. AGAdam Grant
  So this is gonna sound like a pair of no-but questions, but I'm gonna ask you to yes, and them both.
26. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  All right.
27. AGAdam Grant
  Okay. So two, two maybe empirical challenges-
28. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Okay
29. AGAdam Grant
  ... to this idea. The first one is our own Carl, Carl Ulrich and Christian Terwiesch-
30. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Okay
33:33 – 37:46
Lightning round takeaways: humor, failure, courage, and real human connection
1. AGAdam Grant
  Okay. Lightning round.
2. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah.
3. AGAdam Grant
  You ready?
4. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yes.
5. AGAdam Grant
  Okay. Uh, best advice to level up your humor game?
6. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Take an improv class, 100%.
7. JGJustin Gregg
  Don't try and be funny. The funniest thing is the thing that you didn't think hard about.
8. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah.
9. AGAdam Grant
  Okay. What is your best advice for how to cope with failure when, uh, a sketch bombs?
10. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Realize that nothing matters, and we're all on a rock that's gonna get eaten by the sun. [laughs]
11. JGJustin Gregg
  Yep. It doesn't matter.
12. AGAdam Grant
  Wow. Okay. That was a really dark... [laughs]
13. JGJustin Gregg
  That's right.
14. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  I find it hopeful, but all right.
15. JGJustin Gregg
  That's a really good... That's the answer to... I always use that one.
16. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
17. JGJustin Gregg
  I'm, I'm...
18. AGAdam Grant
  Okay. Okay, you both said that improv has elevated other parts of your life. What's the most direct application that you've found?
19. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Uh, so I also do stand-up comedy, and I do keynote speaking, and it makes me a million times better on stage doing actual planned things. Because in the moment, if something weird happens, I can react to it. If I say something the wrong way, I can turn it into a thing. It is a very powerful feeling.
20. AGAdam Grant
  We have data to back that up. So we ran a people analytics conference here for 10 years, I think.
21. JGJustin Gregg
  Yeah.
22. AGAdam Grant
  The highest rated speaker in the history of the conference was Andrea over Zoom.
23. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Well, I didn't know that.
24. JGJustin Gregg
  Wow. That's cool.
25. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  I was compared with the real pers- Thanks to you for the applause, by the way. I really appreciate it.
26. JGJustin Gregg
  Yeah. [laughs]
27. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Your support, everyone was like, "Meh." [laughs]
28. JGJustin Gregg
  And that is a great example-
29. AJAndrea Jones-Rooy
  Okay
30. JGJustin Gregg
  ... illustrating what you were just describing.

Episode duration: 37:47

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Transcript of episode 5GaHIVUsHNU

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Improv as the “dirty secret” behind science communication

What improv actually is: short-form vs long-form (and why it’s misunderstood)

Why improv feels easier than prepared talks: freedom from being “wrong”

Improv as a life skill: listening, presence, and not rehearsing your next line

The core rule: “Yes, and” (and the everyday cost of saying no)

Failure immunity: learning to bomb safely and bounce back

Improv is teamwork: make your partner look good (Conan as a model)

Game 1 — Two-Headed Expert: unison speaking and letting go of leadership

Post-game reflection: Muppet energy, audience support, and embracing awkwardness

Game 2 — ‘New book you don’t know’: building a mystery from questions

Game 3 — Director’s notes: replaying a scene with character constraints

Why improv is hard for thinkers: flow states, metacognition, and divergent practice

Improv, AI, and smarter groups: combining independent ideas with ‘yes, and’ building

Lightning round takeaways: humor, failure, courage, and real human connection

Get more out of YouTube videos.